Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio. Rolling on the full. Laughing
Speaker 1: is a thing I can. I've seen, We've all seen
Speaker 1: people do it. I've done it, I've keep Kidding's for
Speaker 1: me now. The work is to want what I have,
Speaker 1: even kind of shitty stuff. You know, that's my work.
Speaker 1: It's imperfect. So let me ask you a question about
Speaker 1: actors because you are Yeah, me too. We are old
Speaker 1: funny duddies. We go to sleep at ten, we wake
Speaker 1: up at six, we go to bed at eight, So
Speaker 1: there are more funny duddies than you. You are the
Speaker 1: funny duddiest. Yes, welcome to go ask Alli. I'm Allie Wentworth.
Speaker 1: You know I've spoken a lot about aging parents and
Speaker 1: how we're dealing with our own mortality, and actually, right
Speaker 1: now I have a father in hospice, and I'm sitting
Speaker 1: nearby a Boston hospital where my mother is being taken
Speaker 1: care of. She just broke a rib and her femur.
Speaker 1: And a few weeks ago, I was reading the Washington
Speaker 1: Post and I read an article about death dulas, and
Speaker 1: I was fascinated because death dulas or end of life
Speaker 1: dulas are people that help you. They can advocate for
Speaker 1: you and actually make the transition a little bit smoother,
Speaker 1: and so I was dying to talk to these death dulas.
Speaker 1: Laura Lister Mensch used her downtime during the pandemic to
Speaker 1: be trained as an end of life DULA and volunteers
Speaker 1: her services in hospice care. She currently is the first
Speaker 1: Death Dula in residence at Historic Congressional Cemetery in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C, where she holds weekly Death Dula day gatherings
Speaker 1: and the Lauria Walker. She's an end of life dula
Speaker 1: and the founder of Dula by Destiny. She partners with
Speaker 1: organizations to promote, serve, and educate communities about holistic end
Speaker 1: of life and advance auts care planning. She's an International
Speaker 1: End of Life Dula Association educator and has a master's
Speaker 1: in Management of Aging Services. My father is in hospice
Speaker 1: in Washington, DC right now, and I realized I didn't
Speaker 1: even know what that meant exactly. And then I realized
Speaker 1: that I have grown up in a world that doesn't
Speaker 1: talk about death very often. And then I was reading
Speaker 1: in the Washington Post and I saw two words death dula,
Speaker 1: and I thought, what the hell is that. So let's
Speaker 1: just start in the most simplistic way. What is a
Speaker 1: death duela. I'm going to let Val take the definition,
Speaker 1: but I do want to say that the training is
Speaker 1: called end of life dula. So it was a little
Speaker 1: bit of a stretch that we called it death dula
Speaker 1: for this other project. But they're interchangeable. Yes, it is
Speaker 1: a more shocking way provocative way to say it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: end of life dula sounds a lot more calming and digestible.
Speaker 1: So Val, tell me about an end of life dula.
Speaker 1: So end of life dula is my preference, and end
Speaker 1: of life dula starts out. Let me just say with listening,
Speaker 1: but we come into a sacred space, a space where
Speaker 1: a person is transitioning to serve them and their families
Speaker 1: with assess of humility while we're supporting them to bring
Speaker 1: back the humanity and the compassion that we often don't
Speaker 1: see in the dying process. We work in a capacity
Speaker 1: of being non medical, so we're not in there a
Speaker 1: minister any type of medication. We are listening to build
Speaker 1: trust in a nonjudgmental way. So if a patient or
Speaker 1: a client is saying something to me that may conflict
Speaker 1: with me. It is not my place to say, well,
Speaker 1: let me try to save you on that, or let
Speaker 1: me try to change you on that, or let's think
Speaker 1: about it another way, because this dying process is not
Speaker 1: about the duela. It's a person that's in front of us.
Speaker 1: Caregivers are burned out, confused, under trains, so we try
Speaker 1: to help them go through the process by providing a
Speaker 1: as much support as we can. And so that's what
Speaker 1: a duela is. We bring death awareness. We empower the
Speaker 1: clients and the caregiver to speak up because a lot
Speaker 1: of times, because you don't know things, or you don't
Speaker 1: know a medical terminology, you may not feel comfortable. So
Speaker 1: we bring in a conversation where both parties are on
Speaker 1: the same page and under the same understanding, and then
Speaker 1: we go in as a team member, most of the
Speaker 1: time in hospice, not to go in to change the plan,
Speaker 1: but to see what we can do to enhance the
Speaker 1: plan for the care team and also for the person
Speaker 1: that's transitioning and their family members. That's fantastic And Laura,
Speaker 1: you during COVID decided to train to be an end
Speaker 1: of a life dula and so what made you come
Speaker 1: up with this decision and how was that process. I've
Speaker 1: always been someone who felt more comfortable about death than
Speaker 1: a lot of people around me, and I thought about
Speaker 1: being a birth dua when at a certain stage. But
Speaker 1: I really felt like I'm reaching a certain age in
Speaker 1: early sixties where I'm seeing a lot more death and
Speaker 1: friends and family. A lot of people I know are
Speaker 1: losing people COVID, and I like a lot of people
Speaker 1: decided to lean into this during COVID. It's a phenomena.
Speaker 1: I think people are really thinking about deathcare and end
Speaker 1: of life care in a way that was not perhaps
Speaker 1: happening before. So I'm one of many. One of the
Speaker 1: things I love about that article is that I've heard
Speaker 1: from callous people who'd never heard of it before, and
Speaker 1: so I feel like the service of making sure people
Speaker 1: know this exists is part of this passion, part of
Speaker 1: this project. It's interesting because people that I've seen in
Speaker 1: hospice or in the hospital dying, they don't have an advocate.
Speaker 1: Usually is particularly in a hospital, it's usually a family
Speaker 1: member saying, you know, excuse me, my husband's uncomfortable, or
Speaker 1: the famous scene in terms of endearment, when the mother's screaming,
Speaker 1: you know, give my daughter the shot, and so what
Speaker 1: you said earlier valves, so you can't. You don't administer medication.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like a important, almost imperative part of
Speaker 1: dying is to have someone there to kind of represent
Speaker 1: you and represent you, know, your wants and your desires.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think we all know,
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to death and families, a lot
Speaker 1: of family members have different ideas about how family members
Speaker 1: should die, and it creates havoc and a family and
Speaker 1: lots of anger. And so have you found that you
Speaker 1: have to kind of be an intermediary within families too? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: I can give you a situation where there was a
Speaker 1: family member that I supported in the first meeting. She said, VOW,
Speaker 1: I want you here, but my family is not going
Speaker 1: to accept the way that I want to die, and
Speaker 1: I need to make sure that you are sure with
Speaker 1: support parding me. And I said I am, and sure enough,
Speaker 1: I set up a virtual meeting with the family member,
Speaker 1: and the sister came on and she was saying, you
Speaker 1: can't die like this and we need you to keep
Speaker 1: on fighting. And I talked to the caregiver that was there.
Speaker 1: Of course, the person that was transitioning. And I looked
Speaker 1: at him and I said, now is the time that
Speaker 1: we have to intervene. And he agreed with me, and
Speaker 1: he was the one who told the sister, this is
Speaker 1: what she has accepted. This is the way that we're
Speaker 1: gonna let this process flow. You can come on board
Speaker 1: with us, but we can't let you interrupt this sacred
Speaker 1: space that we're holding for her to honor her the
Speaker 1: way that she wants to be honored. So you can
Speaker 1: get with the program, or you cannot get with the program.
Speaker 1: And she flew in the very next day, and she
Speaker 1: was okay for a while, and then she flew back
Speaker 1: and she started the family dynamics all over again. But
Speaker 1: the family member was already deceased by then, right, No,
Speaker 1: she was still she was still alive. But we still
Speaker 1: did not allow her to interrupt the space that we
Speaker 1: was holding for her who was transitioning. M Laura, what
Speaker 1: have some of your experience has been? So my work
Speaker 1: is is is a little different because I volunteer at
Speaker 1: a hospice board in a hospital. Um, I'm there for
Speaker 1: anyone who's there. They don't know my name, I don't
Speaker 1: know theirs, And I especially focus on people who have
Speaker 1: no friends or family and are in their last hours
Speaker 1: weeks of life. So it's it's a little different, but
Speaker 1: my training as an end of life to a law
Speaker 1: really helps me do that work more mindfully and thoughtfully.
Speaker 1: What I find is that there's there's a real fear
Speaker 1: of all just family and friends, about death, and that
Speaker 1: that fear brings out the worst in all of us.
Speaker 1: And the antidote to that would be another part of
Speaker 1: what DOUST do, which has helped people who are dying,
Speaker 1: or maybe way before you're dying, that would be preferable
Speaker 1: to kind of write down and share what your desires
Speaker 1: would be that are according to your values and your wishes,
Speaker 1: so that when someone like VOW or me or someone
Speaker 1: else comes along and plays that role as that non
Speaker 1: medical supporter, that we know what that person's values were
Speaker 1: and what they wanted, because as you're experiencing, sometimes the
Speaker 1: person who's actually dying isn't really fully oriented to the
Speaker 1: situation and they need an advocate family to kind of
Speaker 1: get on board. And I was going to ask you, guys,
Speaker 1: what do you do when somebody has had such cognitive decline.
Speaker 1: You know that they're nonverbal and they're not really there.
Speaker 1: They've already written down their wants. And so if somebody
Speaker 1: had written down, let's say six months earlier, you know
Speaker 1: I love birds. Then when they sort of lose, for
Speaker 1: lack of a better phrase, lose their mind, you still
Speaker 1: know to talk about birds or to play bird music,
Speaker 1: like you implement what they wanted. Whether they're lucid or
Speaker 1: not correct, they aren't as if they're sitting there speaking
Speaker 1: with us like you and I speak it today. If
Speaker 1: they're in hospice or if they're at home, I would
Speaker 1: be looking for a way to bring in a bird
Speaker 1: in a cage so that that bird can sing in
Speaker 1: the morning time, or so that it can be And see,
Speaker 1: this is what a duela does. We think outside of
Speaker 1: the box. I've had a person who I've actually taken
Speaker 1: her outside of acts or I said, do you want
Speaker 1: to go outside? She said sure. It was in July.
Speaker 1: It was hot, we're in Maryland, the humidity was up.
Speaker 1: After five minutes of moving her entire bed out, she said,
Speaker 1: I want to go back inside. Okay, our poorness just
Speaker 1: had a high slash. But took her back inside alley.
Speaker 1: She she died the next day. She transitioned the very
Speaker 1: next day, but she had a moment of being outside
Speaker 1: for five minutes, and that's what stirs up our heart
Speaker 1: and our spirit as end of life duelas walk me through. Um,
Speaker 1: there's nothing typical about it, but walk me through sort
Speaker 1: of one of your experiences as an end of life Duela. So, Laura,
Speaker 1: I mean, how does that work in hospice. I think
Speaker 1: it's different in different systems of hospice and different situations.
Speaker 1: I'm on a hospital ward and I'm not at liberty
Speaker 1: to give their exact protocol, but I will say that
Speaker 1: because I'm able to be with people who who are
Speaker 1: not surrounded by friends and family and are often very
Speaker 1: close to the end of their life, my work mainly
Speaker 1: has to do withholding hands. So I just sit and
Speaker 1: I hold people's hands and I breathe with them for
Speaker 1: as long as I'm there. And that, you know, being
Speaker 1: able to be present for somebody who's alone is a
Speaker 1: really meaningful thing. I wish more people did it. In DC,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of people who end their lives
Speaker 1: alone and without any resources or personal effects or not
Speaker 1: to mention Adula. So I think we as a society
Speaker 1: should be doing better and this should not be something.
Speaker 1: But those of us who want to volunteer to do that,
Speaker 1: get our training and go do it. And it's very
Speaker 1: I think meaningful work and valve. For somebody that, let's say,
Speaker 1: wants to age at home and ask you to come
Speaker 1: to their like some of your clients ask you to
Speaker 1: be with them, how does that process work? So it
Speaker 1: really depends on where they are in their journey. If
Speaker 1: we are six months out, then of course I'm supporting
Speaker 1: them before the transition. So I'm talking about different developments
Speaker 1: like VCA, a volunteery, stopping eating and drinking, because I
Speaker 1: want to determine how what's their mindset for when they transition.
Speaker 1: I'm listening actively. They may want a vigil during that
Speaker 1: last breath. They may want to work on a legacy,
Speaker 1: so I will talk to them about a legacy projects.
Speaker 1: I had an individual lady. This is the forty eight
Speaker 1: year old lady who wanted a body donation, but she
Speaker 1: wanted her body to be returned back to her family
Speaker 1: and the institution that she had filled out the paperwork with.
Speaker 1: She was unaware that they cremated and they returned the
Speaker 1: remains to the family member. So I had to go
Speaker 1: in and find another organization, which I did luckily, that
Speaker 1: would do the research on her body and return the
Speaker 1: whole body back to the family. And then at that
Speaker 1: point she wanted a green burial, so she had a
Speaker 1: lot of dynamics as a part of what she was
Speaker 1: thinking about. But I had some time to sit with
Speaker 1: her and talk that through. So after that process, then
Speaker 1: the doing part is educating the family member on the
Speaker 1: signs and symptoms. Was changing the breathing, that's changing, the
Speaker 1: discoloration of the skin that may be changing. We also
Speaker 1: address because we are very much focused on food and eating.
Speaker 1: That's how we gather and that's how we comfort ourselves.
Speaker 1: So I educate family members on the body is shutting down.
Speaker 1: You don't have to bring in a three course meal,
Speaker 1: especially if they are refusing food. You don't want to
Speaker 1: force that because I understand that that makes you feel better.
Speaker 1: You know, when we get sick, mom says, get some
Speaker 1: chicken noodle soup because that makes mom feel better and
Speaker 1: it also makes the child feel better. But in this case,
Speaker 1: we talk about force feeding, so it's education, education, education.
Speaker 1: Then we're bringing in what we talked about in the
Speaker 1: befour months, the playlists, you know, we're holding space and
Speaker 1: we're dealing with family dynamics if that's the case, and
Speaker 1: then afterwards we are helping with reprocessing the whole event
Speaker 1: that took place, just to see and check where the
Speaker 1: caregivers are emotionally. If we see that they are just stuck,
Speaker 1: grief stricken, can't move, then we do referrals to license
Speaker 1: clinical social workers or grief therapy. We also enact the
Speaker 1: after death care if they want the hands washed or
Speaker 1: defeat washed or anything like that. And all of that
Speaker 1: goes right back to the beginning of listening actively and
Speaker 1: having a conversation of what the individual wants, brother it's
Speaker 1: at home or any hospice facility. If I had a
Speaker 1: terminal disease and I hired one of you to be
Speaker 1: my duela, and I said to you, will you help
Speaker 1: me take my own life? Could you slash? Would you
Speaker 1: I consider being an end of life to it to
Speaker 1: be a non medical role, and so that's not my
Speaker 1: purview at all. But if you're asking if as a
Speaker 1: as an end of life dula, if I was supporting
Speaker 1: someone in their value, I wouldn't call that ending their life.
Speaker 1: You know, we all have different values around that, but
Speaker 1: I think this is a conversation that people are having
Speaker 1: about choosing when they want to do that, and there
Speaker 1: are different ways that that happens. I think we all
Speaker 1: should be talking about it, and we should be sharing it,
Speaker 1: and people should be able to state their own wishes.
Speaker 1: In my case, I would want to get an understanding
Speaker 1: of what you are thinking about when you're talking about
Speaker 1: ending your life. Are you talking about medical aid and
Speaker 1: dying which is not legal in many states? It's only
Speaker 1: legal and about eleven states, So if I'm in Merland,
Speaker 1: I can't assist you with that, you know, anyway legal
Speaker 1: if you are talking about yeah, legally, if you're talking
Speaker 1: about VSA volunteeringly stopping eating and drinking, anyone can assist
Speaker 1: you with that, And that really depends on how comfortable
Speaker 1: the Duela feels honoring that request for you, and people
Speaker 1: choose that to hasten their death. In most cases, they
Speaker 1: will begin to stop eating, they're not taking in any fluids,
Speaker 1: they're not taking in any substance, and you will see
Speaker 1: that the dying process will begin fairly quickly. So that
Speaker 1: would be my determination, finding out what is it that
Speaker 1: you're really talking about? When it comes now, I would
Speaker 1: help with VC and I will provide resources for you.
Speaker 1: If you're talking about medical aid and dying, well, can
Speaker 1: you talk about the different stages of death? I know
Speaker 1: you were just touching upon it, but what are the stages?
Speaker 1: So if you're a couple of months out, you are
Speaker 1: mostly still able to communicate. And this really is not
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a general description, but it
Speaker 1: depends on the disease, your age, your genetics, you know.
Speaker 1: So in the beginning you're still a fluid, You're able
Speaker 1: to have a conver sation, but you begin to turn inwardly.
Speaker 1: There's a period of quietness, reflection. Many people will start
Speaker 1: talking about their childhood, you know, what's meaningful to them.
Speaker 1: We also address concerns around guilt. You know, anything that
Speaker 1: anyone wants to confess to us. We address that, any
Speaker 1: unfinished business, forgiveness, we talk about that. And then when
Speaker 1: we start moving closer to the ending part of death,
Speaker 1: we notice that there's a what they call a death rattle.
Speaker 1: If you've heard of the death rattle, where the noise
Speaker 1: is right, the gurgling and the throat, that's an indication
Speaker 1: of getting close. You may see marbling of the skin
Speaker 1: where you see where the veins are not really as
Speaker 1: puffy as they normally would be. The skin does a
Speaker 1: return back to its regular position. At this time most
Speaker 1: of the time that the person is not talkative at all.
Speaker 1: You may be able to say wake up, and they
Speaker 1: may come up for a couple of minutes, you know,
Speaker 1: then go back. So now you're not really able to
Speaker 1: communicate with them. And then the last minutes two hours
Speaker 1: there's basically no communication. They're sleeping with the mouth open,
Speaker 1: You're not seeing any breathing from the chest. A lot
Speaker 1: of times you can look at the chest and see
Speaker 1: that there's no movement. And so these are some of
Speaker 1: the signs that happen across the course, depending on where
Speaker 1: you catch a person at in their journey. Has anybody
Speaker 1: ever confessed things to you? They have not, but that
Speaker 1: I have heard of other dulers saying yes, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Yeah, I heard some confessions from family members.
Speaker 1: Oh wait a second, yeah, what do you they confess
Speaker 1: to you? Yeah? I do find that that as as
Speaker 1: we've all seen, right, when when you're with someone in
Speaker 1: a moment that is really profound like that or the
Speaker 1: moments around it. Um, I think it. People become very
Speaker 1: personal and even a stranger will will speak of things
Speaker 1: that they might not normally do. And I have found
Speaker 1: that family members want to talk, and maybe it's better
Speaker 1: that it's not a family member. Maybe it's better that
Speaker 1: it's someone that they, you know, have not had a
Speaker 1: long relationship with, and they want to they want to talk.
Speaker 1: I've been very, very surprised by that and very honored. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot more to come after the short break
Speaker 1: and we're back. I wonder this is a question for
Speaker 1: both of you, but what an extraordinary time it is
Speaker 1: when somebody is transitioning and you're with them. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's religious almost And how do you not feel
Speaker 1: sad yourself after somebody has passed. How do you deal
Speaker 1: with the connections that you make with the people that
Speaker 1: you're helping and advocating for. Where's the self advocation and
Speaker 1: the self love for you when you're helping so many
Speaker 1: people do this? I would say on my end as
Speaker 1: a newer person to this, before I was allowed to
Speaker 1: volunteer at hospice, or before I was able to come
Speaker 1: on as an annealda training as a DULA, I was
Speaker 1: asked questions about what kind of attitude I was taking
Speaker 1: and whether I had self care. That's a really big
Speaker 1: part of the training. It's making sure or that people
Speaker 1: are not making it about themselves as well said, and
Speaker 1: know how to do what you just describe, which is
Speaker 1: really hard, which is not to be about you, but
Speaker 1: still be in the room and you know you can't
Speaker 1: disconnect And I know I do cry and I do
Speaker 1: after process that when I leave. For me, you know
Speaker 1: Laura talked about we do have a self care section
Speaker 1: that we talk about when we are doing the training.
Speaker 1: But for me, like for instance, Ali, I supported someone
Speaker 1: over a year, ninety three year old lady. It's very
Speaker 1: hard not to connect when you're supporting someone for that
Speaker 1: amount of time. And I also was asked to attend
Speaker 1: her funeral service. Aterwards, I stayed in contact and checked
Speaker 1: on her son, who was her primary caregiver a couple
Speaker 1: of months, three to six months afterwards, and I took
Speaker 1: got three months. I needed to clear my own space
Speaker 1: before I could help the next client. Also a part
Speaker 1: of our training we talk about rituals and last breath
Speaker 1: rituals for family members. So as a ritual, I have
Speaker 1: a very strong connection to water and so I have
Speaker 1: to get myself to a place where I see water.
Speaker 1: Here water thus my ritual of how our process and
Speaker 1: cleanse myself from the person or the client that I
Speaker 1: just served. I read about a woman who wanted so
Speaker 1: much to be by the beach or on the beach
Speaker 1: when she died, and her duela got sand and put
Speaker 1: her hand in sands and sort of scented the room
Speaker 1: with coconut and created a world that felt like the beach,
Speaker 1: you know, put the music on of the waves, which
Speaker 1: was so extraordinary, you know, because it's it's simple, but
Speaker 1: it's such a beautiful way to help that person die,
Speaker 1: especially if they're in a very antiseptic room, to have
Speaker 1: that imagination. I know when my stepfather was dying, he
Speaker 1: turned to my mother. He died during COVID, he was
Speaker 1: ninety nine, and he said, I'm so tired. Can I go?
Speaker 1: And my mother said, oh, yes, you can go, And
Speaker 1: she talked about him being in a canoe and they
Speaker 1: were going down the river and she sort of created,
Speaker 1: like Adula, a wonderful picture and he just kind of
Speaker 1: fell asleep, which to me was the most beautiful way
Speaker 1: one can possibly die. But I believe that that Duela's
Speaker 1: can kind of create those wishes and those atmospheres that
Speaker 1: people dream about or want when they are passing. You know,
Speaker 1: I've never been in a hospital where somebody said, oh here,
Speaker 1: let me turn on some classical music, and you know
Speaker 1: it just that kind of care is not there exactly,
Speaker 1: It's true, and you know, the alternative to that kind
Speaker 1: of experience is often the shopping channel. I'm surprised and
Speaker 1: how many times I see that people are watching something
Speaker 1: that really shouldn't be end of life TV fare and
Speaker 1: I wonder if the person in the hospital, you know,
Speaker 1: if that's what they wanted or not. But I don't
Speaker 1: like to think of people exiting this world to the
Speaker 1: shopping channel. Oh no, just my Peppie, please don't not
Speaker 1: with QBC Wow, we also use a tool called guided imagery.
Speaker 1: So in that case, you know, we would ask you
Speaker 1: what is your favorite place, and we would incorporate all
Speaker 1: the sounds and smells and everything that we can make
Speaker 1: that scessery happen and that connection happen for you. It
Speaker 1: sounds like your mother instinctually did god imagery exactly. She did.
Speaker 1: She didn't realize she was doing that, but she did.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. Yeah, So Laura, you're the resident Death Duela
Speaker 1: at Historical Congressional Cemetery, right, yes, which makes me really
Speaker 1: pretty pretty nutty. And tell me about those We created
Speaker 1: this as an idea. It's not been done. There are
Speaker 1: artists in residents at some cemeteries. Congressionals are really special place.
Speaker 1: They're allowing a space now for death positive activities, and
Speaker 1: so we're just creating it as we go every Saturday,
Speaker 1: having people come and just talk about these things and
Speaker 1: do activities. I'm really into active what do they mean?
Speaker 1: And certainly I'd love one of you to talk about
Speaker 1: the death positivity movement. What is a good death? I
Speaker 1: hear that phrase over and over again, a good death.
Speaker 1: I'll jump in and give you my definition of death positive.
Speaker 1: And I have to say that my mother is death negative.
Speaker 1: So I often have conversations with my mom about death
Speaker 1: positive and death negative. But I used to be involved
Speaker 1: with talking about sex and the term sex positive came up,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, well, that's weird, like what does
Speaker 1: that mean? What it means is that you accept that
Speaker 1: this is part of the normal experience. Death is part
Speaker 1: of the normal experience, and that death is neither good
Speaker 1: nor bad, and that the idea that a good death
Speaker 1: to me would be one where you I think most
Speaker 1: people would say, has dignity, peaceful. It's a peaceful situation,
Speaker 1: It is without undue pain and where someone feels that
Speaker 1: they are loved. And that is part of what we're doing,
Speaker 1: is as end of life dulas is, we're providing an
Speaker 1: environment of love for fellow human being, whether there's family
Speaker 1: there or not. And that, to me is what we're
Speaker 1: describing when we talk about a good death and death positive.
Speaker 1: What does your mother mean when she says death negative?
Speaker 1: I think she feels that death is somewhere someone has
Speaker 1: made a mistake and she says it's fine afterwards, you
Speaker 1: can be positive about it. But I can't feel positive
Speaker 1: about this. And my mother is a black woman who
Speaker 1: has fought all her life to live and has has
Speaker 1: faced enormous challenges and had to scrap and fight for
Speaker 1: herself in a world that wasn't wasn't really supporting her.
Speaker 1: So I totally understand her failing and I understand her
Speaker 1: distrust of medical um you know, expertise. Does your mother
Speaker 1: want to have a duela with her that would require
Speaker 1: a conversation about about this, and I you know, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us live in families where that's
Speaker 1: that's a difficult conversation to have. I'm willing to talk
Speaker 1: to my mom about it. Hey Mom, Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: think that we start the conversation. That's what we're trying
Speaker 1: to do with this project that you read about, is
Speaker 1: start the conversations. Yeah, I have aging parents now. Like
Speaker 1: I said, my father's in hospice and I can't help
Speaker 1: but think about my own mortality. It keeps me up
Speaker 1: sometimes at night and I think about death and I
Speaker 1: think about my children. And it was always, like I
Speaker 1: said at the beginning of the podcast, it was we
Speaker 1: never spoke about it in my family ever. And I
Speaker 1: have a series of grandparents that took their own lives
Speaker 1: and that was never spoken of. And so for me
Speaker 1: right now, at this moment in my life, I'm actually
Speaker 1: fascinated by all of this information because I think there
Speaker 1: is a way to have some kind of control over
Speaker 1: how you leave. And there's so much of it, like
Speaker 1: you said, Laura, is discussion. You know, at some point
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to my children about it. I
Speaker 1: want to talk to my husband about it. What are
Speaker 1: we thinking, how do we want to do this. Where
Speaker 1: do I want to be? What do I want to be?
Speaker 1: And I think most people ignore the subject until either
Speaker 1: it's too late or they sort of, you know, look
Speaker 1: to the medical community and so like you deal with this,
Speaker 1: we can't deal with it. So true, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: I think we often seek hospice care too late, you know,
Speaker 1: and we often have the conversation too late. And I
Speaker 1: think on one of your previous podcasts you had a
Speaker 1: guest that was talking about near death experience. Right, thank
Speaker 1: you for listening. Val sure like and subscribe. But you know,
Speaker 1: we we we can be at a restaurant and choke
Speaker 1: and die. We you know, we don't have to be
Speaker 1: eighty and ninety. You look at the young of those
Speaker 1: that are dying on the streets, you know. And I
Speaker 1: went back to my university to train or to talk
Speaker 1: about advanced care planning and dying, and I was absolutely
Speaker 1: amazed at the students in the age range of twenty
Speaker 1: two to twenty eight that were willing to listen and
Speaker 1: had comments afterwards. And so I just connected with a
Speaker 1: business here in Columbia, Maryland. She put out a death cafe,
Speaker 1: which I did two weeks ago. We hadn't had one
Speaker 1: in Columbia, Maryland since twenty thirteen. We had a waiting list,
Speaker 1: we had to refuse people. So individuals COVID unfortunately helped
Speaker 1: us bring out death, you know, and so the fear
Speaker 1: is still there. But to have someone be able to
Speaker 1: hold a space without judgment while you are considering your
Speaker 1: mortality is a good thing that's happening in our society. Now,
Speaker 1: now for my listeners, can you explain a death cafe?
Speaker 1: Because I don't want a reservation? What am I going
Speaker 1: to order at the death cafe? A conversation, Laura, So
Speaker 1: tell me about it. I've been too many death cafes,
Speaker 1: but I facilitated one for the first time yesterday. And
Speaker 1: just like Val said, there's a real interest among young people.
Speaker 1: This was not just a bunch of eighty year olds.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even you know, us sixty some year olds.
Speaker 1: There were There was quite a mix of people. But
Speaker 1: one phenomena that I've found in Val and I've talked
Speaker 1: about this is it's almost all women. It's like the
Speaker 1: Union of Men decided that we will send one to
Speaker 1: each of your events. But that's it, just one. And
Speaker 1: I don't understand it. Why are women so interested in
Speaker 1: going to death cafes and coming to death positive events
Speaker 1: and becoming duelists. I just think the connection to our emotions.
Speaker 1: You know, big boys don't cry and wipe your tears,
Speaker 1: and you're the man of the house, you know, So
Speaker 1: they don't have opportunities to grieve openly. And a grieving
Speaker 1: man has a reputation of and I'm not speaking about
Speaker 1: all men, but has a reputation of being a weak man,
Speaker 1: and so they are not get ready to come into
Speaker 1: a space to talk about death, to show their emotions.
Speaker 1: So a lot of that conversation with men go unspoken.
Speaker 1: For instance, you know, I have brought my family along
Speaker 1: because I've constantly normalized the conversation. When I first started
Speaker 1: talking to my son about it, he would sneak out
Speaker 1: of the room in the middle of the conversation. I'm like,
Speaker 1: where is the boy? Where's the child? You know? And
Speaker 1: then the December before COVID, my son came to my
Speaker 1: home and said, MA, this is what I want you
Speaker 1: to do if I die. And it was completely completely
Speaker 1: honest to God, differently than what I would have done.
Speaker 1: And so when we don't have these conversations Ali, we
Speaker 1: don't honor the very people that are in our homes,
Speaker 1: the people that we sleep beside, the people that we love.
Speaker 1: You know, we assume this is what they want, but
Speaker 1: because we don't have enough carriage and our throats to say,
Speaker 1: let's sit down and talk about it. But look after
Speaker 1: you normalize it. It took eight years for me to
Speaker 1: normalize the conversation with him. But guess what, I now
Speaker 1: know how to serve my son and I feel at
Speaker 1: peace with being able to do that. And he's only
Speaker 1: thirty years old. So you have to get past the
Speaker 1: fear of thinking that just because you talk about death,
Speaker 1: you're going to die, you know, to have a better death,
Speaker 1: have the conversation about it. And so when you go
Speaker 1: to the death cafes, basically there are forums in which
Speaker 1: you discuss preparing for death, how you would like to
Speaker 1: transition in figuring that out. Is that correct? There's no
Speaker 1: real agenda, We just let discussions flow organically. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that death cafees, which were they were a UK
Speaker 1: phenomena originally, they are one of the many ways that
Speaker 1: people are starting to have these conversations, and I find
Speaker 1: it a very profound one for the reason Bell just said,
Speaker 1: which is there is no agenda, there's there isn't actually
Speaker 1: any advice given or tools. It is a bunch of
Speaker 1: unique strangers come into a room and it's a space
Speaker 1: in which you have to discuss dying and death and
Speaker 1: you you listen to each other, you talk, and everything
Speaker 1: that happens is because of the people in that room
Speaker 1: that day, which is a kind of a unique experience.
Speaker 1: And I just it's funny. I just had one of
Speaker 1: the young ladies in her early thirties maybe latter twenties,
Speaker 1: she attended the death cafe that I had. I just
Speaker 1: got an email from her yesterday saying that I set
Speaker 1: with my father who transitioned. I use some of the
Speaker 1: topics that we talked about in the deaf cafe, and
Speaker 1: I thank you so much for holding that space for
Speaker 1: us to learn. Wow, and we'll be right back. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to go. Ask Gali, so, how do how do
Speaker 1: I approach this conversation and how do other people talk
Speaker 1: to their loved ones. I have two answers to that question,
Speaker 1: really briefly. One is start with humor. I think that's
Speaker 1: very important. I also think to look at it as
Speaker 1: kindness rather than as some sort of burden or something creepy.
Speaker 1: It is a kindness to let your wishes be known
Speaker 1: and toss your values to your loved ones. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be you know, at the end of life.
Speaker 1: So it's kindness and humor that I can do. I
Speaker 1: suggest to start from a place of yourself. So when
Speaker 1: you're sitting down at the table with your loved ones,
Speaker 1: you're saying, this is what I would like for you
Speaker 1: to do for me. I have been considering more my
Speaker 1: mortality lately. This is how I want you to honor me.
Speaker 1: I want to be at the beach. I would like
Speaker 1: to have a certain type of music played. So now
Speaker 1: it's I I I. Because you're if you're sitting down
Speaker 1: saying tell me what you want to tell me what
Speaker 1: you want, that's abrupt. You know I'm not ready. You
Speaker 1: may be considering your mortality, but what makes you think
Speaker 1: I'm considering minds? And so it's more of I I.
Speaker 1: And that's how I got my son to the place,
Speaker 1: because I normalized the conversation with I eye so much
Speaker 1: he was comfable enough to say, Okay, well let me
Speaker 1: now tell a mom what it is that I want
Speaker 1: her to do for me, and so start with the
Speaker 1: eye and then be open to whatever it is. Rather
Speaker 1: thy are willing to accept what you're saying or not,
Speaker 1: you know, share it. Come back a couple of days,
Speaker 1: a couple of months later, go back with the I
Speaker 1: have been considering my mortality and this is what I
Speaker 1: want you to do for me to honor my life
Speaker 1: as I transition. That's great. You know, I've done a
Speaker 1: podcast with people about money. You know, people are very
Speaker 1: reluctant to talk about money, and one of the things
Speaker 1: we discussed was putting together a book for your children
Speaker 1: that just tells you where money is. And I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if there's a way for people to have conversations and
Speaker 1: even create a book that's sort of your my transitioning
Speaker 1: to afterlife book, you know, if later on you're not
Speaker 1: lucid enough to maybe verbalize it that says this is
Speaker 1: how I would like to leave. It's interesting, Ali, because
Speaker 1: there are quite a few tools like that, but people
Speaker 1: don't know they exist. They don't have anyone to help
Speaker 1: them work on it. And I think if people knew
Speaker 1: that they were out there and that was like your
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving activity, some of the family members will leave the room.
Speaker 1: But it's a really wonderful experience to do it. I have,
Speaker 1: for example, what we call a death binder, and there
Speaker 1: are a lot of death binders out there that you
Speaker 1: can create. You can create one that's already got all
Speaker 1: the tabs on it, and there are books and workbooks
Speaker 1: and end of life duelists also do this work. We
Speaker 1: help people find the tool that suits them and they
Speaker 1: help them get to work on it. And that's really
Speaker 1: my mission. I want to get people to start working
Speaker 1: on that and then edit it throughout their lives. That
Speaker 1: would be perfect. Do you encourage people to write their
Speaker 1: own obituary? I do, and we had a workshop on
Speaker 1: that at Congressional Cemetery a couple of weeks ago, and
Speaker 1: fascinating to me, it was young people mostly. It was
Speaker 1: a big group and the question that got people got
Speaker 1: stuck on surprised me. I don't know if either of
Speaker 1: you would agree, but it was the part on the
Speaker 1: form where I asked them to fill out who they
Speaker 1: were leaving behind, and people got stuck and really felt
Speaker 1: a lot of emotion. Wow, that's something to think about, right.
Speaker 1: And here's the best review I could find of the
Speaker 1: people who participated in that. Last month, a young person
Speaker 1: wrote back to me later and said, I did not
Speaker 1: like my obituary as written, and so I'm making changes
Speaker 1: in my life so that my obituary will be different.
Speaker 1: Oh that's amazing, that's great. Yes, that's great. I can
Speaker 1: think of no better outcome. Yeah, that's why we're doing
Speaker 1: this projects. It's not just about dying, it's about how
Speaker 1: we live. I love that. Yeah. I think people have
Speaker 1: dreams a lot. You hear people say, oh, I had
Speaker 1: this dream, or sometimes I have this idea about going
Speaker 1: to my own funeral and you know, who's going to
Speaker 1: be there, who's going to show up, what does it
Speaker 1: look like? And I think it might be an interesting
Speaker 1: exercise for people to kind of have a creative writing
Speaker 1: assignment where they got to be kind of a ghost
Speaker 1: at their own funeral. What would they want it to
Speaker 1: look like? Right, who would they want to be there,
Speaker 1: what are the flowers like? What? You know? Just that
Speaker 1: would be kind of a wonderful exercise. We actually do
Speaker 1: that as part of the training. You do yes, yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: well look at me. You're halfway there exactly. You know
Speaker 1: my last question because you have been so incredibly insightful
Speaker 1: and helpful. What are you seeing when people are preparing
Speaker 1: for their own death? Now, besides the people that come
Speaker 1: to the Deaf Cafe, are you seeing that the majority
Speaker 1: of people are not dealing with it, They're not confronting it,
Speaker 1: and they're not talking about it or I mean, Laura
Speaker 1: earlier you said you sort of see a shift where people,
Speaker 1: particularly young people, are starting to discuss it a lot more.
Speaker 1: I definitely admire the fact that there are younger people
Speaker 1: that are willing to have that conversation. I'm really worried
Speaker 1: about people who don't because it causes chaos and fear.
Speaker 1: But I think the answer is people generally do not
Speaker 1: make plans and have not figured out what their values are,
Speaker 1: and are not living as if they're mortal. I always
Speaker 1: forget that word we are mortals. Yeah, you know, even
Speaker 1: in hospice, a lot of people don't have a plan.
Speaker 1: I've walked into people who just lost a loved one
Speaker 1: and had no plan for where even the body of
Speaker 1: the person was going to go or what that person
Speaker 1: wanted as far as disposition or memorialization. So I think
Speaker 1: we're in denial as a culture, and I think we
Speaker 1: live better if we get out of that denial. So
Speaker 1: maybe the young people will lead us on this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope. So the young people have a lot of
Speaker 1: work to do in our country. Sorry kids, yeah, sorry kids.
Speaker 1: But I say to my daughter's every day like it's
Speaker 1: up to you fix the climate, fix all of it.
Speaker 1: So I've asked you many questions about death and transitioning
Speaker 1: and being a duela. So now I'm going to turn
Speaker 1: the tables and allow both of you to ask me
Speaker 1: a question. And I'm going to start with valve. You
Speaker 1: can ask me anything you want. Wow. Well, I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask you a serious question, but I really want
Speaker 1: to ask you a funny question. I have squirrels that
Speaker 1: are eating up my lights. I really want to know
Speaker 1: how to give rid of squirrels. They're disrespectful. But let
Speaker 1: me just go to the real question. You need to
Speaker 1: borrow my hound dog. My hound dog will hunt a squirrel.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you he pulls me on the leash because
Speaker 1: he chases squirrels all the time. I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: FedEx him to you for a week. Yeah. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: but well, now that you know the row of the duela,
Speaker 1: and if Laura and I were your duela. What would
Speaker 1: be one element or what would be something that you
Speaker 1: would like for us to do to help you transition peacefully. Well,
Speaker 1: one thing is I do like touch, so I would
Speaker 1: definitely want Laura holding one hand and Value holding another hand.
Speaker 1: I would like music, a nice classical box, masks and
Speaker 1: be minor. I would like in This is where I'm
Speaker 1: really going to challenge you. I would like to have
Speaker 1: my bed covered in dogs when I die. I love dogs,
Speaker 1: My dogs sleep on my bed. I just you'd have
Speaker 1: to go to the pound. I don't know the neighborhood.
Speaker 1: You'd have to just rally up a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: dogs and put them on the bed. And I think
Speaker 1: that would that would be And this is just you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just starting this process, and believe me, when I
Speaker 1: start writing in my journal, I will add things. There'll
Speaker 1: be mint, chocolate chip ice cream somewhere in there. But
Speaker 1: to me, that would be a nice, peaceful thing. To
Speaker 1: have the touch of two women maternal and to have
Speaker 1: all these dogs on my bed, That to me is heaven.
Speaker 1: There would not be any shopping network. Thank you for sharing,
Speaker 1: And Laura, can I answer anything for you? I'm envisioning
Speaker 1: you surrounded by dog. It's beautiful. So mine is a
Speaker 1: little serious. Okay. You mentioned your father, and that's he's
Speaker 1: working his way through the process. And I know that
Speaker 1: you mentioned that he had dementia as my dad, one
Speaker 1: of my dads did. And I remember the minute that
Speaker 1: I was I decided, I'm going to remember you this way, Daddy,
Speaker 1: and I held his hands and I said, I'm going
Speaker 1: to remember you like this. He was teaching me how
Speaker 1: to grow. What is the moment that you think of
Speaker 1: when you when your dad was your dad, the way
Speaker 1: you remembered him, and that you're going to hold. Oh,
Speaker 1: what a lovely question. I think the image that I
Speaker 1: hold is my father. He was a reporter for the
Speaker 1: Washington Post, and later in life he discovered painting and
Speaker 1: he loved to paint, and he could sit on a
Speaker 1: grassy knoll for hours and meticulously paint a watercolor. And
Speaker 1: I think that's when he was most at peace, when
Speaker 1: he was happiest. So those are the moments I hold
Speaker 1: close and remember and like to remember about him. Is
Speaker 1: when he would be, you know, in his tattered corduroys
Speaker 1: and an old sweater, sitting there painting away. Because that
Speaker 1: was sort of him in his essence, that's beautiful. Thank
Speaker 1: you for doing this, Thank you for enlightening everybody. It's
Speaker 1: a incredible subject and it's like you said, I think
Speaker 1: it's something we should all be talking about all the time.
Speaker 1: And when I put down that roast chicken tonight, George
Speaker 1: Stephanopolis is going to get an earful because we're going
Speaker 1: to start talking about this. I'm gonna say to him,
Speaker 1: if you don't tell me what you want to do,
Speaker 1: that I'm going to have my own plans for you
Speaker 1: and you're not gonna like it. Thank you, guys, thank
Speaker 1: you very much for this. We appreciate it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a hotel room and it's snowing outside
Speaker 1: in Boston, and as I said at the beginning of
Speaker 1: this podcast, I'm very immersed in this. And after I
Speaker 1: sign off, I'm going back to the hospital to see
Speaker 1: my mother. And one of the things I've really realized,
Speaker 1: and you don't really realize until you're in that situation.
Speaker 1: They and when I say they, I mean my parents
Speaker 1: and people in the geriatric community. They need that hand holding.
Speaker 1: They need to know that they're supported and loved. And
Speaker 1: particularly when I was talking to Laura. You know, the
Speaker 1: idea that she's in these hospitals where people have nobody
Speaker 1: else around them and she holds their hand is so
Speaker 1: huge because at the end, if you're transitioning, the idea
Speaker 1: that the touch of human being is right there is
Speaker 1: so imperative. So thank you both Beloria and Laura for
Speaker 1: telling us their stories, providing such an important service. And
Speaker 1: for more info on what you've heard in this episode,
Speaker 1: check out our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate
Speaker 1: and review Go ask Alli, and follow me on social
Speaker 1: media on Instagram at the real Alli Wentworth. Now. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to ask me a question or suggest a
Speaker 1: guest or a topic to dig into, I would love
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