Speaker 1: Hi, Betrayal listeners. This week, we just wanted to quickly
Speaker 1: drop a note to our listeners and say thank you.
Speaker 1: We've been taking the time to read through all of
Speaker 1: your emails that you submited at betrayalpod at gmail dot
Speaker 1: com because so many of you have reached out with
Speaker 1: your own stories, questions, and feedback. You plan to release
Speaker 1: bonus content with updates and resources, so stay tuned. But first,
Speaker 1: here's episode seven. This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take
Speaker 1: care while listening.
Speaker 2: I was packing up to go and was in my
Speaker 2: office and she surprised me. I think she said something like,
Speaker 2: what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad,
Speaker 2: she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness.
Speaker 2: Then I remember a kiss. It was so very and sensual.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Episode seven, Recovery.
Speaker 1: In the first year after Spencer's arrest, Jennifer fought hard
Speaker 1: to move forward and heal, all the while Spencer was
Speaker 1: sending letters from jail telling her how sorry he was.
Speaker 2: I want to restore our marriage and I'll do whatever
Speaker 2: it takes for you to believe me about that. I
Speaker 2: promised myself to be real with you about my true feelings,
Speaker 2: and that promise also makes me say that I one
Speaker 2: hundred percent believe we can get through this.
Speaker 1: Jennifer understood she was experiencing trauma. She sought help from wise,
Speaker 1: empathetic voices that helped her find her footing.
Speaker 3: My name is Kim Gould. I am a betrayal trauma
Speaker 3: specialist and coach. It is my deepest passion to help
Speaker 3: people heal from trauma and reclaim their lives. Do this
Speaker 3: profound work at the Center for Relational Healing in Los
Speaker 3: Angeles and then in my own intimacy coaching practice, I
Speaker 3: help people take that healing to the next level.
Speaker 4: Kim, I get so emotional when I think about you
Speaker 4: and the part that you've played on this journey with me,
Speaker 4: and I'm just really, really grateful. You know, when all
Speaker 4: this happened, I didn't know betrayal trauma was a thing,
Speaker 4: and it's.
Speaker 3: A thing, certainly, yes, it is what we commonly refer
Speaker 3: to as a shattered worldview. Betrayal trauma basically takes away
Speaker 3: everything that you thought you knew to be true or
Speaker 3: safe or just in the world.
Speaker 5: So you're literally like a little baby trying to to
Speaker 5: walk and talk and make sense of things in a
Speaker 5: nonsensical world.
Speaker 3: And what feels like a very dangerous world.
Speaker 4: In the beginning, especially, I walked around feeling like there
Speaker 4: was an elephant standing on my chest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly is physiological, emotional, spiritual, cognitive, and mental.
Speaker 3: The trio trauma feels like and it does hijack the
Speaker 3: person going through it, and it did that to you
Speaker 3: at the beginning as well. Physiologically, a large part of
Speaker 3: that is because your nervous system has been shot, there's
Speaker 3: no place to find safety, and your nervous system will
Speaker 3: send you into a hypervigilant state, and the body and
Speaker 3: the brain are sending you into fight or freeze. So
Speaker 3: many behaviors come from seeking safety, the being a detective
Speaker 3: and checking emails and texts all night long for hours
Speaker 3: and hours and not able to sleep. This would look like, oh,
Speaker 3: the betrayed partner or the woman who is going crazy.
Speaker 3: And there are unfortunately times where women have been misdiagnosed.
Speaker 3: As an example of this, many women have been labeled
Speaker 3: as having a personality disorder when they are really just
Speaker 3: adapting to this earth shattering trauma and did not even
Speaker 3: have these symptoms before the event, and every single thing
Speaker 3: we see a betrayed partner doing is safety seeking behavior.
Speaker 6: I relate to that so much, and I think that's
Speaker 6: why I'm so consumed by needing to know who it
Speaker 6: was that I married, because I I didn't know him.
Speaker 6: I didn't know a whole side to him, and that's
Speaker 6: so scary. Honestly, my biggest fear coming out of this
Speaker 6: and sharing this story with everyone is I know people
Speaker 6: are going to ask, how could she not know? How
Speaker 6: did you not see any signs? And I just didn't.
Speaker 3: Probably at least fifty percent of the betrayed partners I
Speaker 3: work with say it's like being with Jacko and Hie.
Speaker 3: These are not people who, for the most part, were
Speaker 3: mean or on caring to their partners. The majority of
Speaker 3: the women that I've worked with similar to you, Jen,
Speaker 3: were astounded. I'm surprised, and a very smart women and
Speaker 3: very intelligent, intuitive women. These are not women who have
Speaker 3: had their blinders on. What we're talking about is the
Speaker 3: acting out partners being so unbelievably skilled at gaslighting and
Speaker 3: manipulation and such severe compartmentalization in the brain to be
Speaker 3: able to go out during the day and do certain
Speaker 3: things that are terrible and totally against the value system
Speaker 3: of your marriage, and then to come home and act
Speaker 3: like he loves you and things are fine. I trust
Speaker 3: that Spence was really, really practiced and successful at that,
Speaker 3: because you are a very intelligent woman, and you're not naive,
Speaker 3: and you didn't see it, and most betrayed partners don't.
Speaker 6: You Listen to my conversation with the student I did.
Speaker 6: It was very touching talking with her and the other
Speaker 6: two women. That's what this whole journey has been about.
Speaker 6: It's really helped me understand the other side of this
Speaker 6: person that I thought I really knew. As the police
Speaker 6: were leading Spence out the front door of our house, handcuffed,
Speaker 6: I yelled out to them, he's a good person. Even
Speaker 6: after finding out that he just committed this awful, awful
Speaker 6: crime against a young person, I still needed them to
Speaker 6: know he was a good person, because in my head
Speaker 6: he was somebody completely different. My reality was shattered and
Speaker 6: it had not registered. And I'm still struggling to understand
Speaker 6: the way he was with me and the way that
Speaker 6: I know he behaved and treated many, many, many other women.
Speaker 3: You know, I haven't been able to do any kind
Speaker 3: of sess or diagnosis or anything like that clinically. But
Speaker 3: I would guess that there are other things going on
Speaker 3: besides addiction, like what it feels to me like there
Speaker 3: were splinters, like of his personality he learned, you know
Speaker 3: how he was supposed to be a good, healthy husband,
Speaker 3: and maybe there was this other part of him that
Speaker 3: he didn't know how to express.
Speaker 1: In the beginning, all jen had to make sense of
Speaker 1: her life, and all the lies were long confessional letters
Speaker 1: and apologies from Spencer. She wasn't falling for it, but
Speaker 1: that didn't stop him from attempting to manipulate her from
Speaker 1: his jail cell. That first Thanksgiving, he sent her a
Speaker 1: three page letter on all the things he was thankful for.
Speaker 2: I'm thankful for getting to marry my dream girl. I'm
Speaker 2: thankful that you said yes. I'm thankful that one day
Speaker 2: there's a chance that you might forgive me. I'm thankful
Speaker 2: that at some point I might get a shot at
Speaker 2: life again. I'm so very thankful for second chances. I'm
Speaker 2: thankful that I will always have hope that my future
Speaker 2: could possibly have you in it. Jennifer. I'm thankful for you.
Speaker 1: There wasn't going to be reconciliation. The apologies were hollow.
Speaker 1: She didn't trust him. How could she. Her eyes were
Speaker 1: wide open, and she wanted to see who he really
Speaker 1: was once and for all. Maybe then she could understand
Speaker 1: what he did and why this happened to her.
Speaker 6: Knowing what I do about Spence's behavior now, I feel
Speaker 6: like there was this compulsion that he just couldn't control.
Speaker 1: In another letters I'm from Jail, Spencer theorized that it
Speaker 1: must have been his need for attention that caused his problems,
Speaker 1: long before he and Jennifer reconnected after college.
Speaker 2: I remember once getting a message from a woman saying
Speaker 2: she was thinking of me. It was such a rush
Speaker 2: I had never had that that became my search. This
Speaker 2: is all backstory. It's what I've discovered with so much thinking, meditation,
Speaker 2: and of course prayer. You asked me when the cops
Speaker 2: were coming to get me if I was a sex
Speaker 2: act My answer is still absolutely no. My problem was
Speaker 2: at a much more intimate level, attention seeking, approval seeking.
Speaker 3: You can look at sex addiction just like you would
Speaker 3: with any other addiction, gambling, food, heroin, alcohol. Somewhere along
Speaker 3: the line they learned that if I have this thing,
Speaker 3: I'm going to have relief from pain, or it could
Speaker 3: be the oppressing I'm actually going to feel live for
Speaker 3: a little while. So it's whether someone feels too much,
Speaker 3: feels too little, and basically doesn't know how to have
Speaker 3: healthy coping mechanisms in life. But really, what makes something
Speaker 3: an addiction or a compulsive disorder is that the person
Speaker 3: keeps doing it again and again and again, and it
Speaker 3: is bringing a lot of harm and dysfunction into their
Speaker 3: lives and into others, and they keep doing it and
Speaker 3: they're not able to stop.
Speaker 6: Do you think people with these kind of addictions or
Speaker 6: compulsions look for a certain type of person to prey on.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a big piece of this, which, in
Speaker 3: my opinion, is so deeply connected to our patriarchal society
Speaker 3: that teaches us that women are the most value when
Speaker 3: they are beautiful and getting attention from men, and they
Speaker 3: are trained that way from childhood. And here's, you know,
Speaker 3: a charismatic man who is giving them attention, and this
Speaker 3: feeds their own need for validation, making them so vulnerable
Speaker 3: to glooming and the way they are going about trying
Speaker 3: to find worth in this world.
Speaker 1: Hearing Kim say this, maybe think of hope. In Jennifer's front,
Speaker 1: they said almost the same thing.
Speaker 7: I got this text message, well, you're beautiful. Here's an
Speaker 7: attractive guy telling me I'm pretty.
Speaker 8: I was stressed out, didn't feel pretty all the time,
Speaker 8: because you know, I had kids hanging off me, breastfeeding.
Speaker 8: I was greasy, maybe showered every couple days, maybe washed
Speaker 8: up with baby wipes. But then I would always hear,
Speaker 8: you know, like, you're so beautiful, You're really really well rounded,
Speaker 8: You're a great mom.
Speaker 6: But he says that he never sought after any of this.
Speaker 6: He says it was always the women that were giving
Speaker 6: him the eye or letting him know that it was okay,
Speaker 6: when in fact, I have so much communication that proves otherwise.
Speaker 1: Here is exactly what he wrote about Jennifer's friend, the
Speaker 1: one Spencer had sex with at the wine bar.
Speaker 2: To my memory, she was staring at me a lot
Speaker 2: at the bar. I'm sure I noticed it and tried
Speaker 2: to dismiss it as just my imagination. I honestly have
Speaker 2: no idea how it actually started. I just don't. It's
Speaker 2: not really important anyway, It's just not.
Speaker 1: It was important to Jennifer, and it seems Spencer had
Speaker 1: amnesia when it came to how the affairs started, but
Speaker 1: the women he remembered specific details.
Speaker 8: I went into the bathroom and when I came out,
Speaker 8: he was there and mentioned, like, you know that we
Speaker 8: have this thing together. You know you're feeling is too right?
Speaker 8: And then he came in for a kiss, then held
Speaker 8: my hand and touched his crotch with my hand on
Speaker 8: the outside.
Speaker 1: Of his pants.
Speaker 2: What is is how it continued? I guess she had
Speaker 2: to be a willing participant. There were times when you
Speaker 2: or her husband were out of town, or when she
Speaker 2: might just linger at the bar. I can't give you
Speaker 2: details because I can't remember them. When it was over
Speaker 2: with her, you can't imagine my relief that problem in
Speaker 2: my life was over. I was so happy.
Speaker 6: I think one of the biggest blessings of this situation
Speaker 6: was that Spence was arrested and has remained locked up.
Speaker 6: I haven't had to face him or deal with it
Speaker 6: except for in letters. It's truly a blessing because I
Speaker 6: can't imagine if that person was around to be able
Speaker 6: to lie about the situation.
Speaker 3: Essentially, I absolutely agree his absence and removal from your
Speaker 3: space and from your life. While so painful allowed you
Speaker 3: to hear more quickly, and the extreme of his behing
Speaker 3: fears made things really definitive and clear for you.
Speaker 1: Jennifer took note of how often he used the word
Speaker 1: love with other women. It's done. She pressed Spencer about that,
Speaker 1: especially with his colleague in the Air Force.
Speaker 7: I really thought that he loved me. He had me
Speaker 7: convinced that he did. I mean, he told.
Speaker 2: Me, Hope. I know you're really wondering how I used
Speaker 2: the word love with her. I don't know how I
Speaker 2: ever did or could have. I do not and never
Speaker 2: did love her. She's the same as anyone else. Whenever
Speaker 2: I did use that word, I can only assume it
Speaker 2: was to reciprocate her using it, or to maybe keep
Speaker 2: giving me the attention I was still wanting.
Speaker 1: In that same letter, Spencer goes on.
Speaker 2: To say any time spent with Hope was never romantic,
Speaker 2: anticipated or anything like that. Allowing these things to happen
Speaker 2: was just that, allowing Hope that I never had a
Speaker 2: thing that anyone could see or detect. It was that
Speaker 2: cheap and meaningless. I imagine it happened just as with
Speaker 2: the other one. Dumb looks that were accepted as attention
Speaker 2: and some kind of thing I wanted. After each time
Speaker 2: I was unfaithful, I felt disgusting and hurtful to.
Speaker 1: All involve allowing these things to happen. Almost sounds like
Speaker 1: his participation was passive. However, each woman who has spoken
Speaker 1: has consistently shared that Spencer was clear about his intentions.
Speaker 6: And what's sad to me is that in his letters
Speaker 6: that he writes, he really minimalizes the situations with the victim.
Speaker 6: It was consensual. She was looking at me, she made
Speaker 6: eyes at me. I find that there's a lot of
Speaker 6: denial and what he believes.
Speaker 9: When people have built up these lies inside of themselves
Speaker 9: and the ways that they operated in the world for
Speaker 9: so long, it's hard for them to know what's really
Speaker 9: true and what's not.
Speaker 1: He wrote to Jen about the sexual Saul victim as
Speaker 1: a warning, it is disturbing.
Speaker 2: I had never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way,
Speaker 2: not at all. I tell you this so that you
Speaker 2: know how it all started. In fact, probably for the
Speaker 2: last ten to fifteen years, I have not looked at
Speaker 2: any teen girl as anything but that a teen girl.
Speaker 2: I had gotten older. There were no fantasies. That is
Speaker 2: one hundred percent true. In May, I can remember the
Speaker 2: students starting to stare at me longer looks more often.
Speaker 2: She was being very obvious and it started coming out
Speaker 2: of nowhere. She also started coming by at the end
Speaker 2: of school, asking random questions for no reason. She then
Speaker 2: started lingering. At the end of the club I started
Speaker 2: to sense something. I was packing up to go and
Speaker 2: was in my office and she surprised me. I think
Speaker 2: she said something like, what are you doing and going home?
Speaker 2: I said, that's too bad, she responded. I was in
Speaker 2: shock and surprise by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss.
Speaker 2: It was so very consensual.
Speaker 1: His account certainly differs from the sexual assault victim's acount
Speaker 1: on how they first became involved.
Speaker 10: He had texted me that he had feelings for me.
Speaker 10: I remember feeling I don't know. I guess Shack it's
Speaker 10: an understatement. That was the first time the boundary was crossed,
Speaker 10: and he told me that he wanted to talk about
Speaker 10: it in person, and I agreed to because I thought
Speaker 10: maybe we could talk about it and that would be that.
Speaker 1: Spencer continued his account of the story in his letter.
Speaker 2: She was very aggressive most of the time. I was
Speaker 2: sure it was something she was super familiar with. In
Speaker 2: other words, I was never taking some leading role, if
Speaker 2: that makes sense. I know it was all my fault
Speaker 2: matter how she was.
Speaker 10: What I remember feeling most was really confused.
Speaker 2: It didn't feel.
Speaker 10: Right, you know. I expressed to him that I was
Speaker 10: a virgin, and I don't know if I was ready
Speaker 10: for anything.
Speaker 1: Spencer pushed for his court appointed attorney to argue his
Speaker 1: account of the victim's complicity in the case. His attorney
Speaker 1: wisely reminded Spencer that remorse was his best legal strategy.
Speaker 1: While reviewing all of the raw materials for the series,
Speaker 1: our team made a shocking discovery. In twenty fifteen, the
Speaker 1: same year that he started sending text messages to the
Speaker 1: sexual assault victim, Spencer made a hard play for at
Speaker 1: least one other student at l High School. And yes
Speaker 1: she was a tea. Was she also the pursuer another
Speaker 1: girl making eyes at him? Here are some of the
Speaker 1: messages he sent to that student. As a warning, these
Speaker 1: messages may be hard to hear.
Speaker 2: You are so out of my league. Busy tonight, come
Speaker 2: by the bar. You're the focus of all my erotica.
Speaker 2: What about hanging after school?
Speaker 3: One day?
Speaker 2: We'd get away from this place. Well, since we both
Speaker 2: trust each other, I'm not worried. I think it'd be
Speaker 2: fun and totally cool, no issues, stress or drama.
Speaker 1: And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he
Speaker 1: tried a different tactic her adulthood.
Speaker 2: You're incredibly pretty and mature. You are a woman, are
Speaker 2: you not?
Speaker 1: And this?
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about me? In the flesh?
Speaker 1: The text Spencer sent the other student were wildly inappropriate
Speaker 1: and upsetting, and while we did not see evidence that
Speaker 1: a sexual assault occurred in these tax exchanges, we did
Speaker 1: share this information with law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Everybody gets these kinds of dopamine hair to fare on
Speaker 3: Facebook or Instagram, and they get a hard or alike,
Speaker 3: and these things start to train the nervous system like oh,
Speaker 3: I like that. We want more of those pleasure hormones
Speaker 3: running through our bodies. So every time he was texting,
Speaker 3: every time Spence was emailing and getting a response from
Speaker 3: these young women, it was released through those endorphins and
Speaker 3: the dopermine and keeping him in the addiction cycle.
Speaker 1: Another detail that caught our attention was the way he
Speaker 1: described a fantasy to the student what their first kiss
Speaker 1: would be like.
Speaker 2: I keep seeing this image of you and I hanging
Speaker 2: out wherever, it doesn't matter. But then at some point
Speaker 2: you lean into me as I'm talking and simply kiss me,
Speaker 2: almost like you couldn't wait any longer and couldn't wait
Speaker 2: for me to move towards you.
Speaker 1: It sounded eerily similar the way he described the sexual
Speaker 1: assault victim in his letter to Jennifer.
Speaker 2: I was packing up to go and was in my
Speaker 2: office and she surprised me. I think she said something like,
Speaker 2: what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad,
Speaker 2: she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness.
Speaker 2: Then I remember a kiss. It was so very consensual.
Speaker 1: His fantasy with the other student, the one he attempted
Speaker 1: to seduce, was the same as his account to Jennifer
Speaker 1: of what happened with the sexual assault victim. A young
Speaker 1: girl simply found him irresistible, but the reality was quite different.
Speaker 1: The victim did not initiate the relationship. There was one
Speaker 1: last issue in the case, with which Spencer took great umbrage.
Speaker 2: I would never, could never do anything to my accuser
Speaker 2: that would associate with the word assault. I will not
Speaker 2: leave court without the DA and judge knowing any different, Jen,
Speaker 2: I have never thought to force myself on anyone ever.
Speaker 2: I sure as hell wasn't going to do that with
Speaker 2: a student. Clearly, I was already sleeping around, so there
Speaker 2: was never a reason, none for me to treat anyone
Speaker 2: like she claims i'd treated her.
Speaker 1: Here, he argues that with the number of partners, the
Speaker 1: availability of women he had, what reason would he have
Speaker 1: to be forceful? The victim must be lying. Then I
Speaker 1: thought about the words we heard earlier from Hope.
Speaker 7: Looking back, I remember for a couple of times where
Speaker 7: you know, he would kind of put his hands around
Speaker 7: my throat and push down. That kind of caught me
Speaker 7: off guard.
Speaker 6: Hearing that story from her, it's heart wrenching. She talks
Speaker 6: about how he was forceful with her at times, but
Speaker 6: then in a letter, he says to me, I would
Speaker 6: never I just feel like in his brain he really
Speaker 6: doesn't see the truth.
Speaker 3: Again, I haven't been able to do any kind of
Speaker 3: sess man or diagnosis, but I would say that having
Speaker 3: that control and being able to manipulate and coerce was
Speaker 3: part of what fed him. None of it is about
Speaker 3: love or kindness, or connection.
Speaker 9: Or even the beauty of sex.
Speaker 3: It's abound wounds and control and manipulation and trauma to
Speaker 3: everyone involved, and avoidance of anything that feels like intimacy.
Speaker 6: It's been about two and a half years since I
Speaker 6: spoke with Spence, and I really am curious about whether
Speaker 6: or not he still feels the same way in those
Speaker 6: letters that he wrote to me.
Speaker 3: If that is all still the case, and that means
Speaker 3: very little healing has happened, because those are the beginning
Speaker 3: stages of what someone needs to face in order to heal,
Speaker 3: and those things are all things that also allow the
Speaker 3: addiction cycle to continue. We work with those cognitive distortions
Speaker 3: in therapy and coaching when we're trying to help the
Speaker 3: sex addicts heal. All those things rationalizing, minimizing, they help
Speaker 3: her and not have to look at themselves and take
Speaker 3: full accountability for what they've done. He has been manipulating
Speaker 3: himself and believing all of his own lives for so
Speaker 3: many years that he really can't see the difference probably
Speaker 3: between reality and things that he's making up. There's also
Speaker 3: this other part of him that feels like he needs
Speaker 3: to hold onto that part that you needed to hold
Speaker 3: on to Jim when the police took him away he
Speaker 3: needs to hold on to some part of that within himself.
Speaker 3: And even though he's done all of these things, the
Speaker 3: part that he's holding onto so he doesn't disintegrate or
Speaker 3: totally fall apart is they were okay with it. It
Speaker 3: wasn't a salt.
Speaker 6: Do you think there's any way that Spence has healed himself.
Speaker 3: From my vast clinical experience, it takes a lot of
Speaker 3: hard recovery work, coaching and therapy groups, going through the
Speaker 3: twelve steps making amends. It's a long journey, but one
Speaker 3: of the first steps is being in some kind of
Speaker 3: recovery group where it will start to break down the
Speaker 3: lies and the identity that you've been telling yourself all along.
Speaker 3: I do believe greatly in the power of healing, and
Speaker 3: no people cannot hear from this level of addiction and
Speaker 3: other compulsive behaviors without significant therapeutic help from specialists. True
Speaker 3: recovery and hearing involves so much account bilit empathy, and compassion.
Speaker 3: If Spence was deeply remorseful, maybe he would come to
Speaker 3: you and say, you know, I'd like to pay you
Speaker 3: back for the tens of thousands of dollars that you
Speaker 3: needed for your coaching and your therapy. It's called making
Speaker 3: living a mess. I mean, you wouldn't accept it, and
Speaker 3: that would be a drop in the bucket. But I'm
Speaker 3: just saying, when someone is truly healing and in recovery,
Speaker 3: there is a very big part of them that deeply
Speaker 3: cares about the pain and the impact that they brought
Speaker 3: into other people's lives, and they do what they can
Speaker 3: to try their best to clean that up.
Speaker 6: I can only work on myself, which is what I
Speaker 6: have been doing now for the last few years.
Speaker 3: You've gone through one of the most traumatizing things I've
Speaker 3: ever heard of, and you who did that deep work
Speaker 3: of learning how to heal yourself every day so that
Speaker 3: you can come out to the world and say this happened,
Speaker 3: this is my story. It affected me and affected other
Speaker 3: women too. I'm hoping to heal those other women by
Speaker 3: doing this, and it's been such an honor to support
Speaker 3: you and be a part of your healing.
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Betrayal, Jennifer confronts Spencer.
Speaker 6: In one of the letters that you wrote me, you
Speaker 6: said that you never thought after it.
Speaker 3: Do you still feel that way?
Speaker 11: Well, yes, it's just an opportunity would present itself and
Speaker 11: then before I knew it, I was pursuing it. I
Speaker 11: wasn't lucky you got away with it. I was unlucky
Speaker 11: that I was getting away with it. It be better for
Speaker 11: it to all go on to ship the first time.
Speaker 2: Truth.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Speaker 1: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Speaker 1: Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound
Speaker 1: editing and mixing done by Matt Tavecchio. Betrayal's theme was
Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music
Speaker 1: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Some names
Speaker 1: have been changed to protect privacy.