WEBVTT - Recovery | Jenifer's Story 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.280 Hi, Betrayal listeners. This week, we just wanted to quickly 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:05.720 drop a note to our listeners and say thank you. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:08.320 We've been taking the time to read through all of 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.080 your emails that you submited at betrayalpod at gmail dot 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.680 com because so many of you have reached out with 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.920 your own stories, questions, and feedback. You plan to release 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:21.800 bonus content with updates and resources, so stay tuned. But first, 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:28.440 here's episode seven. This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:29.360 care while listening. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:32.680 I was packing up to go and was in my 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.400 office and she surprised me. I think she said something like, 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.800 what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad, 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.520 she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.320 Then I remember a kiss. It was so very and sensual. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:11.040 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Episode seven, Recovery. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.440 In the first year after Spencer's arrest, Jennifer fought hard 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.880 to move forward and heal, all the while Spencer was 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.240 sending letters from jail telling her how sorry he was. 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.480 I want to restore our marriage and I'll do whatever 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.920 it takes for you to believe me about that. I 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.080 promised myself to be real with you about my true feelings, 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.920 and that promise also makes me say that I one 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.000 hundred percent believe we can get through this. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:46.120 Jennifer understood she was experiencing trauma. She sought help from wise, 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.080 empathetic voices that helped her find her footing. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.480 My name is Kim Gould. I am a betrayal trauma 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.200 specialist and coach. It is my deepest passion to help 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.360 people heal from trauma and reclaim their lives. Do this 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.559 profound work at the Center for Relational Healing in Los 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.760 Angeles and then in my own intimacy coaching practice, I 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.400 help people take that healing to the next level. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:16.320 Kim, I get so emotional when I think about you 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.040 and the part that you've played on this journey with me, 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:25.600 and I'm just really, really grateful. You know, when all 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.600 this happened, I didn't know betrayal trauma was a thing, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:31.040 and it's. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:37.880 A thing, certainly, yes, it is what we commonly refer 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:45.880 to as a shattered worldview. Betrayal trauma basically takes away 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.040 everything that you thought you knew to be true or 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.440 safe or just in the world. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:03:00.239 So you're literally like a little baby trying to to 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.080 walk and talk and make sense of things in a 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.680 nonsensical world. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.919 And what feels like a very dangerous world. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:14.239 In the beginning, especially, I walked around feeling like there 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.359 was an elephant standing on my chest. 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:26.240 Yeah, it certainly is physiological, emotional, spiritual, cognitive, and mental. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:32.359 The trio trauma feels like and it does hijack the 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.080 person going through it, and it did that to you 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:40.960 at the beginning as well. Physiologically, a large part of 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:47.320 that is because your nervous system has been shot, there's 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:52.120 no place to find safety, and your nervous system will 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:56.480 send you into a hypervigilant state, and the body and 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:04.080 the brain are sending you into fight or freeze. So 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:11.200 many behaviors come from seeking safety, the being a detective 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.680 and checking emails and texts all night long for hours 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:19.680 and hours and not able to sleep. This would look like, oh, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.960 the betrayed partner or the woman who is going crazy. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:29.120 And there are unfortunately times where women have been misdiagnosed. 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.680 As an example of this, many women have been labeled 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.200 as having a personality disorder when they are really just 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.920 adapting to this earth shattering trauma and did not even 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:45.279 have these symptoms before the event, and every single thing 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.919 we see a betrayed partner doing is safety seeking behavior. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.679 I relate to that so much, and I think that's 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.120 why I'm so consumed by needing to know who it 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.839 was that I married, because I I didn't know him. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.240 I didn't know a whole side to him, and that's 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.920 so scary. Honestly, my biggest fear coming out of this 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.800 and sharing this story with everyone is I know people 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.880 are going to ask, how could she not know? How 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.640 did you not see any signs? And I just didn't. 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:25.440 Probably at least fifty percent of the betrayed partners I 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.680 work with say it's like being with Jacko and Hie. 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.919 These are not people who, for the most part, were 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:40.840 mean or on caring to their partners. The majority of 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.240 the women that I've worked with similar to you, Jen, 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:51.240 were astounded. I'm surprised, and a very smart women and 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:57.599 very intelligent, intuitive women. These are not women who have 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:02.640 had their blinders on. What we're talking about is the 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:10.360 acting out partners being so unbelievably skilled at gaslighting and 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:18.720 manipulation and such severe compartmentalization in the brain to be 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.200 able to go out during the day and do certain 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.120 things that are terrible and totally against the value system 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.760 of your marriage, and then to come home and act 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.800 like he loves you and things are fine. I trust 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.440 that Spence was really, really practiced and successful at that, 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.799 because you are a very intelligent woman, and you're not naive, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:43.760 and you didn't see it, and most betrayed partners don't. 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.720 You Listen to my conversation with the student I did. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.719 It was very touching talking with her and the other 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.120 two women. That's what this whole journey has been about. 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.800 It's really helped me understand the other side of this 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:06.719 person that I thought I really knew. As the police 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.120 were leading Spence out the front door of our house, handcuffed, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:17.679 I yelled out to them, he's a good person. Even 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:24.480 after finding out that he just committed this awful, awful 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:30.040 crime against a young person, I still needed them to 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.280 know he was a good person, because in my head 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:41.000 he was somebody completely different. My reality was shattered and 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:46.280 it had not registered. And I'm still struggling to understand 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.120 the way he was with me and the way that 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:56.200 I know he behaved and treated many, many, many other women. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.440 You know, I haven't been able to do any kind 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.360 of sess or diagnosis or anything like that clinically. But 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:05.800 I would guess that there are other things going on 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:11.360 besides addiction, like what it feels to me like there 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.640 were splinters, like of his personality he learned, you know 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:21.440 how he was supposed to be a good, healthy husband, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.360 and maybe there was this other part of him that 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.640 he didn't know how to express. 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.400 In the beginning, all jen had to make sense of 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.319 her life, and all the lies were long confessional letters 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.480 and apologies from Spencer. She wasn't falling for it, but 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.560 that didn't stop him from attempting to manipulate her from 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.400 his jail cell. That first Thanksgiving, he sent her a 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.360 three page letter on all the things he was thankful for. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.840 I'm thankful for getting to marry my dream girl. I'm 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.360 thankful that you said yes. I'm thankful that one day 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.760 there's a chance that you might forgive me. I'm thankful 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.120 that at some point I might get a shot at 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:12.080 life again. I'm so very thankful for second chances. I'm 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.079 thankful that I will always have hope that my future 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:20.360 could possibly have you in it. Jennifer. I'm thankful for you. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.520 There wasn't going to be reconciliation. The apologies were hollow. 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.960 She didn't trust him. How could she. Her eyes were 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.480 wide open, and she wanted to see who he really 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.359 was once and for all. Maybe then she could understand 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.160 what he did and why this happened to her. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.520 Knowing what I do about Spence's behavior now, I feel 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.199 like there was this compulsion that he just couldn't control. 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.160 In another letters I'm from Jail, Spencer theorized that it 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.520 must have been his need for attention that caused his problems, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.800 long before he and Jennifer reconnected after college. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.040 I remember once getting a message from a woman saying 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.280 she was thinking of me. It was such a rush 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.640 I had never had that that became my search. This 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:21.000 is all backstory. It's what I've discovered with so much thinking, meditation, 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.480 and of course prayer. You asked me when the cops 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.640 were coming to get me if I was a sex 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:32.760 act My answer is still absolutely no. My problem was 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:37.000 at a much more intimate level, attention seeking, approval seeking. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.200 You can look at sex addiction just like you would 0:10:53.200 --> 0:11:01.080 with any other addiction, gambling, food, heroin, alcohol. Somewhere along 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.760 the line they learned that if I have this thing, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.280 I'm going to have relief from pain, or it could 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.240 be the oppressing I'm actually going to feel live for 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.920 a little while. So it's whether someone feels too much, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.880 feels too little, and basically doesn't know how to have 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.760 healthy coping mechanisms in life. But really, what makes something 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.439 an addiction or a compulsive disorder is that the person 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.040 keeps doing it again and again and again, and it 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:36.560 is bringing a lot of harm and dysfunction into their 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.560 lives and into others, and they keep doing it and 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.080 they're not able to stop. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.520 Do you think people with these kind of addictions or 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.360 compulsions look for a certain type of person to prey on. 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.320 You know, there's a big piece of this, which, in 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.880 my opinion, is so deeply connected to our patriarchal society 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.920 that teaches us that women are the most value when 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.199 they are beautiful and getting attention from men, and they 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.360 are trained that way from childhood. And here's, you know, 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.000 a charismatic man who is giving them attention, and this 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.520 feeds their own need for validation, making them so vulnerable 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.559 to glooming and the way they are going about trying 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.360 to find worth in this world. 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.200 Hearing Kim say this, maybe think of hope. In Jennifer's front, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.400 they said almost the same thing. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:37.480 I got this text message, well, you're beautiful. Here's an 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.920 attractive guy telling me I'm pretty. 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.800 I was stressed out, didn't feel pretty all the time, 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.719 because you know, I had kids hanging off me, breastfeeding. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.200 I was greasy, maybe showered every couple days, maybe washed 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.680 up with baby wipes. But then I would always hear, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.080 you know, like, you're so beautiful, You're really really well rounded, 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:58.640 You're a great mom. 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.120 But he says that he never sought after any of this. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:10.560 He says it was always the women that were giving 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.160 him the eye or letting him know that it was okay, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:23.720 when in fact, I have so much communication that proves otherwise. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.200 Here is exactly what he wrote about Jennifer's friend, the 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.640 one Spencer had sex with at the wine bar. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.280 To my memory, she was staring at me a lot 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.240 at the bar. I'm sure I noticed it and tried 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.960 to dismiss it as just my imagination. I honestly have 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.080 no idea how it actually started. I just don't. It's 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.240 not really important anyway, It's just not. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.440 It was important to Jennifer, and it seems Spencer had 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.000 amnesia when it came to how the affairs started, but 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.360 the women he remembered specific details. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.040 I went into the bathroom and when I came out, 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.120 he was there and mentioned, like, you know that we 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.840 have this thing together. You know you're feeling is too right? 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.280 And then he came in for a kiss, then held 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:19.000 my hand and touched his crotch with my hand on 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:19.840 the outside. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:20.440 Of his pants. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.600 What is is how it continued? I guess she had 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.640 to be a willing participant. There were times when you 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.280 or her husband were out of town, or when she 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.280 might just linger at the bar. I can't give you 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.640 details because I can't remember them. When it was over 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.520 with her, you can't imagine my relief that problem in 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.400 my life was over. I was so happy. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.760 I think one of the biggest blessings of this situation 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:59.880 was that Spence was arrested and has remained locked up. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.120 I haven't had to face him or deal with it 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:10.120 except for in letters. It's truly a blessing because I 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.040 can't imagine if that person was around to be able 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.520 to lie about the situation. 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:23.920 Essentially, I absolutely agree his absence and removal from your 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.920 space and from your life. While so painful allowed you 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:34.960 to hear more quickly, and the extreme of his behing 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:40.960 fears made things really definitive and clear for you. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.240 Jennifer took note of how often he used the word 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:50.520 love with other women. It's done. She pressed Spencer about that, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.720 especially with his colleague in the Air Force. 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.280 I really thought that he loved me. He had me 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.040 convinced that he did. I mean, he told. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.320 Me, Hope. I know you're really wondering how I used 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.800 the word love with her. I don't know how I 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.800 ever did or could have. I do not and never 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.840 did love her. She's the same as anyone else. Whenever 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.760 I did use that word, I can only assume it 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.320 was to reciprocate her using it, or to maybe keep 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.280 giving me the attention I was still wanting. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.240 In that same letter, Spencer goes on. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.560 To say any time spent with Hope was never romantic, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.320 anticipated or anything like that. Allowing these things to happen 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.160 was just that, allowing Hope that I never had a 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.960 thing that anyone could see or detect. It was that 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.800 cheap and meaningless. I imagine it happened just as with 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.960 the other one. Dumb looks that were accepted as attention 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.520 and some kind of thing I wanted. After each time 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.160 I was unfaithful, I felt disgusting and hurtful to. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.800 All involve allowing these things to happen. Almost sounds like 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.720 his participation was passive. However, each woman who has spoken 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.000 has consistently shared that Spencer was clear about his intentions. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.040 And what's sad to me is that in his letters 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:27.600 that he writes, he really minimalizes the situations with the victim. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:34.440 It was consensual. She was looking at me, she made 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.640 eyes at me. I find that there's a lot of 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.719 denial and what he believes. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.240 When people have built up these lies inside of themselves 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.600 and the ways that they operated in the world for 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.960 so long, it's hard for them to know what's really 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:55.800 true and what's not. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.679 He wrote to Jen about the sexual Saul victim as 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.919 a warning, it is disturbing. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.520 I had never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.280 not at all. I tell you this so that you 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.000 know how it all started. In fact, probably for the 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.160 last ten to fifteen years, I have not looked at 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.760 any teen girl as anything but that a teen girl. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.719 I had gotten older. There were no fantasies. That is 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:28.399 one hundred percent true. In May, I can remember the 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:33.040 students starting to stare at me longer looks more often. 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.600 She was being very obvious and it started coming out 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.000 of nowhere. She also started coming by at the end 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.920 of school, asking random questions for no reason. She then 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.960 started lingering. At the end of the club I started 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.840 to sense something. I was packing up to go and 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.439 was in my office and she surprised me. I think 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.960 she said something like, what are you doing and going home? 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:02.359 I said, that's too bad, she responded. I was in 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:07.320 shock and surprise by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss. 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:10.440 It was so very consensual. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.199 His account certainly differs from the sexual assault victim's acount 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.160 on how they first became involved. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.359 He had texted me that he had feelings for me. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.160 I remember feeling I don't know. I guess Shack it's 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.680 an understatement. That was the first time the boundary was crossed, 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.000 and he told me that he wanted to talk about 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.480 it in person, and I agreed to because I thought 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.600 maybe we could talk about it and that would be that. 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.359 Spencer continued his account of the story in his letter. 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.359 She was very aggressive most of the time. I was 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.280 sure it was something she was super familiar with. In 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.040 other words, I was never taking some leading role, if 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.520 that makes sense. I know it was all my fault 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:00.960 matter how she was. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.600 What I remember feeling most was really confused. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.120 It didn't feel. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:12.479 Right, you know. I expressed to him that I was 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.240 a virgin, and I don't know if I was ready 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.080 for anything. 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.119 Spencer pushed for his court appointed attorney to argue his 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.720 account of the victim's complicity in the case. His attorney 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.800 wisely reminded Spencer that remorse was his best legal strategy. 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.640 While reviewing all of the raw materials for the series, 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.760 our team made a shocking discovery. In twenty fifteen, the 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.439 same year that he started sending text messages to the 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.240 sexual assault victim, Spencer made a hard play for at 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.840 least one other student at l High School. And yes 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.960 she was a tea. Was she also the pursuer another 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.679 girl making eyes at him? Here are some of the 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:11.040 messages he sent to that student. As a warning, these 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:12.360 messages may be hard to hear. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:21.560 You are so out of my league. Busy tonight, come 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:27.600 by the bar. You're the focus of all my erotica. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.280 What about hanging after school? 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:31.840 One day? 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.880 We'd get away from this place. Well, since we both 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.679 trust each other, I'm not worried. I think it'd be 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.600 fun and totally cool, no issues, stress or drama. 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.520 And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.000 tried a different tactic her adulthood. 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:57.920 You're incredibly pretty and mature. You are a woman, are 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:58.280 you not? 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:00.360 And this? 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:05.640 Do you ever think about me? In the flesh? 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.440 The text Spencer sent the other student were wildly inappropriate 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.760 and upsetting, and while we did not see evidence that 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.440 a sexual assault occurred in these tax exchanges, we did 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.240 share this information with law enforcement. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.520 Everybody gets these kinds of dopamine hair to fare on 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.880 Facebook or Instagram, and they get a hard or alike, 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.960 and these things start to train the nervous system like oh, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.960 I like that. We want more of those pleasure hormones 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:39.200 running through our bodies. So every time he was texting, 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.840 every time Spence was emailing and getting a response from 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:47.480 these young women, it was released through those endorphins and 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:50.480 the dopermine and keeping him in the addiction cycle. 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.800 Another detail that caught our attention was the way he 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:59.480 described a fantasy to the student what their first kiss 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:00.120 would be like. 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.280 I keep seeing this image of you and I hanging 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.720 out wherever, it doesn't matter. But then at some point 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:13.199 you lean into me as I'm talking and simply kiss me, 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.040 almost like you couldn't wait any longer and couldn't wait 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:18.640 for me to move towards you. 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.240 It sounded eerily similar the way he described the sexual 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:25.840 assault victim in his letter to Jennifer. 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:28.280 I was packing up to go and was in my 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:32.520 office and she surprised me. I think she said something like, 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:37.159 what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad, 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:41.960 she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness. 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.440 Then I remember a kiss. It was so very consensual. 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.520 His fantasy with the other student, the one he attempted 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.320 to seduce, was the same as his account to Jennifer 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:59.040 of what happened with the sexual assault victim. A young 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:03.959 girl simply found him irresistible, but the reality was quite different. 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:10.840 The victim did not initiate the relationship. There was one 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.440 last issue in the case, with which Spencer took great umbrage. 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:19.119 I would never, could never do anything to my accuser 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:22.919 that would associate with the word assault. I will not 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:27.400 leave court without the DA and judge knowing any different, Jen, 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.560 I have never thought to force myself on anyone ever. 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:32.600 I sure as hell wasn't going to do that with 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.160 a student. Clearly, I was already sleeping around, so there 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.520 was never a reason, none for me to treat anyone 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:40.920 like she claims i'd treated her. 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:45.560 Here, he argues that with the number of partners, the 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:50.199 availability of women he had, what reason would he have 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:55.199 to be forceful? The victim must be lying. Then I 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:57.760 thought about the words we heard earlier from Hope. 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:01.879 Looking back, I remember for a couple of times where 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:04.120 you know, he would kind of put his hands around 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:08.280 my throat and push down. That kind of caught me 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:08.800 off guard. 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:17.000 Hearing that story from her, it's heart wrenching. She talks 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:21.959 about how he was forceful with her at times, but 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.280 then in a letter, he says to me, I would 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:31.680 never I just feel like in his brain he really 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:33.840 doesn't see the truth. 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:37.240 Again, I haven't been able to do any kind of 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.000 sess man or diagnosis, but I would say that having 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:47.159 that control and being able to manipulate and coerce was 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:52.159 part of what fed him. None of it is about 0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:56.200 love or kindness, or connection. 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.640 Or even the beauty of sex. 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:09.159 It's abound wounds and control and manipulation and trauma to 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:15.400 everyone involved, and avoidance of anything that feels like intimacy. 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:17.879 It's been about two and a half years since I 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:22.840 spoke with Spence, and I really am curious about whether 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.040 or not he still feels the same way in those 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:27.520 letters that he wrote to me. 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:30.879 If that is all still the case, and that means 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:34.280 very little healing has happened, because those are the beginning 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:38.800 stages of what someone needs to face in order to heal, 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:43.600 and those things are all things that also allow the 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:48.280 addiction cycle to continue. We work with those cognitive distortions 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.000 in therapy and coaching when we're trying to help the 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:59.000 sex addicts heal. All those things rationalizing, minimizing, they help 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:02.720 her and not have to look at themselves and take 0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:08.800 full accountability for what they've done. He has been manipulating 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.840 himself and believing all of his own lives for so 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:17.080 many years that he really can't see the difference probably 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:22.280 between reality and things that he's making up. There's also 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:26.840 this other part of him that feels like he needs 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:30.639 to hold onto that part that you needed to hold 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:33.360 on to Jim when the police took him away he 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:37.119 needs to hold on to some part of that within himself. 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:40.159 And even though he's done all of these things, the 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:45.760 part that he's holding onto so he doesn't disintegrate or 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:50.080 totally fall apart is they were okay with it. It 0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:50.920 wasn't a salt. 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:55.720 Do you think there's any way that Spence has healed himself. 0:27:56.359 --> 0:28:03.080 From my vast clinical experience, it takes a lot of 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:09.800 hard recovery work, coaching and therapy groups, going through the 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:16.560