Speaker 1: Hi, Betrayal listeners. This week, we just wanted to quickly
Speaker 1: drop a note to our listeners and say thank you.
Speaker 1: We've been taking the time to read through all of
Speaker 1: your emails that you submitted at betrayalpod at gmail dot
Speaker 1: com because so many of you have reached out with
Speaker 1: your own stories, questions, and feedback. You plan to release
Speaker 1: bonus content with updates and resources, so stay tuned. But first,
Speaker 1: here's episode seven. This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take
Speaker 1: care while listening. I was packing up to go and
Speaker 1: it was in my office and she surprised me. I
Speaker 1: think she said something like, what are you doing going home?
Speaker 1: I said, that's too bad, she responded. I was in
Speaker 1: shock and surprised by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss.
Speaker 1: It was so very consensual. I'm Andrea Gunning and this
Speaker 1: is Betrayal Episode seven, Recovery. In the first year after
Speaker 1: Spencer's arrest, Jennifer fought hard to move forward and heal,
Speaker 1: all the while Spencer was sending letters from jail telling
Speaker 1: her how sorry he was. I want to restore our
Speaker 1: marriage and I'll do whatever it takes for you to
Speaker 1: believe me about that. I promised myself to be real
Speaker 1: with you about my true feelings, and that promise also
Speaker 1: makes me say that I one hundred percent believe we
Speaker 1: can get through this. Jennifer understood she was experiencing trauma.
Speaker 1: She sought help from wise, empathetic voices that helped her
Speaker 1: find her footing. My name is Kim Gould. I am
Speaker 1: a betrayal trauma specialist and coach. It is my deepest
Speaker 1: passion to help people heal from trauma and reclaim their lives.
Speaker 1: Do this profound work at the Center for Relational Healing
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and then in my own intimacy coaching practice,
Speaker 1: I help people take that healing to the next level.
Speaker 1: Can I get so emotional when I think about you
Speaker 1: and the part that you've played on this journey with me,
Speaker 1: And I'm just really really grateful. You know, when all
Speaker 1: this happened, I didn't no betrayal trauma was a thing,
Speaker 1: and it's a thing, certainly, yes. It is what we
Speaker 1: commonly refer to as a shattered worldview. Betrayal trauma basically
Speaker 1: takes away everything that you thought you knew to be
Speaker 1: true or safe or just in the world. So you're
Speaker 1: literally like a little baby trying to and to walk
Speaker 1: and talk and make sense of things in a nonsensical
Speaker 1: world and what feels like a very dangerous world in
Speaker 1: the beginning, especially, I walked around feeling like there was
Speaker 1: an elephant standing on my chest. Yeah, it certainly is physiological, emotional, spiritual, cognitive,
Speaker 1: and mental. The trio trauma feels like and it does
Speaker 1: hijack the person going through it, and it did that
Speaker 1: to you at the beginning as well. Physiologically, a large
Speaker 1: part of that is because your nervous system has been shot,
Speaker 1: there's no place to find safety, and your nervous system
Speaker 1: will send you into a hyper vigilant state, and the
Speaker 1: body and the brain are sending you into fight or freeze.
Speaker 1: So many behaviors come from seeking safety, the being a
Speaker 1: detective and checking emails and texts all night long for
Speaker 1: hours and hours and not able to sleep. This would
Speaker 1: look like so the betrayed partner or the woman is
Speaker 1: going crazy. And there are unfortunately times where women have
Speaker 1: been misdiagnosed. As an example of this, many women have
Speaker 1: been labeled as having a personality disorder when they are
Speaker 1: really just adapting to this earth shattering trauma and did
Speaker 1: not even have these symptoms before the event, and every
Speaker 1: single thing we see a betrayed partner doing is safety
Speaker 1: seeking behavior. I relate to that so much, and I
Speaker 1: think that's why I'm so consumed by needing to know
Speaker 1: who it was that I married, because I I didn't
Speaker 1: know him. I didn't know a whole side to him,
Speaker 1: and that's so scary. Honestly, my biggest fear coming out
Speaker 1: of this and sharing this story with everyone is I
Speaker 1: know people are going to ask, how could she not know?
Speaker 1: How did you not see any signs? And I just didn't.
Speaker 1: Probably at least fifty percent of the betrayed partners I
Speaker 1: work with say it's like being with jackal and hide.
Speaker 1: These are not people who, for the most part were
Speaker 1: mean or on caring to their partners. The majority of
Speaker 1: the women that I've worked with similar to you, Jen,
Speaker 1: were astounded. I'm surprised, and they were very smart women
Speaker 1: and very intelligent, intuitive women. These are not women who
Speaker 1: have had their blinders on. What were talking about is
Speaker 1: the acting out partners being so unbelievably skilled at gas
Speaker 1: lighting and manipulation and such severe compartmentalization in the brain
Speaker 1: to be able to go out during the day and
Speaker 1: do certain things that are terrible and totally against the
Speaker 1: value system of your marriage, and then to come home
Speaker 1: and act like he loves you and things are fine.
Speaker 1: I trust that Spence was really, really practiced and successful
Speaker 1: at that, because you are a very intelligent woman, and
Speaker 1: you're not naive, and you didn't see it, and most
Speaker 1: betrayed partners don't. You Listen to my conversation with the student,
Speaker 1: I dare it was very touching talking with her and
Speaker 1: the other two women. That's what this whole journey has
Speaker 1: been about. It's really helped me understand the other side
Speaker 1: of this person that I thought I really knew. As
Speaker 1: the police were leading Spence out the front door of
Speaker 1: our house, handcuffed, I yelled out to them, he's a
Speaker 1: good person. Even after finding out that he just committed
Speaker 1: this awful, awful crime against a young person, I still
Speaker 1: needed them to know he was a good person, because
Speaker 1: in my head he was somebody completely different. My reality
Speaker 1: was shattered and it had not registered. And I'm still
Speaker 1: struggling to understand the way he was with me and
Speaker 1: the way that I know he behaved and treated many, many,
Speaker 1: many other women. You know, I haven't been able to
Speaker 1: do any kind of obsessment or diagnosis or anything like
Speaker 1: that clinically, But I would guess that there are other
Speaker 1: things going on besides addiction, like what it feels to
Speaker 1: me like there were splinters of his personality he learned,
Speaker 1: you know how he was supposed to be a good,
Speaker 1: healthy husband, and maybe there was this other part of
Speaker 1: him that he didn't know how to express. In the beginning,
Speaker 1: all jen had to make sense of her life, and
Speaker 1: all the lies were long confessional letters and apologies from Spencer.
Speaker 1: She wasn't falling for it, but that didn't stop him
Speaker 1: from attempting to manipulate her from his jail cell. That
Speaker 1: first Thanksgiving, he sent her a three page letter on
Speaker 1: all the things he was thankful for. I'm thankful for
Speaker 1: getting to marry my dream girl. I'm thankful that you
Speaker 1: said yes. I'm thankful that one day there's a chance
Speaker 1: that you might forgive me. I'm thankful that at some
Speaker 1: point I might get a shot at life again. I'm
Speaker 1: so very thankful for second chances. I'm thankful that I
Speaker 1: will always have hope that my future could possibly have
Speaker 1: you in it. Jennifer. I'm thankful for you. There wasn't
Speaker 1: going to be reconciliation. The apologies were hollow. She didn't
Speaker 1: trust him. How could she. Her eyes were wide open,
Speaker 1: and she wanted to see who he really was, wants
Speaker 1: and for all. Maybe then she could understand what he
Speaker 1: did and why this happened to her. Knowing what I
Speaker 1: do about Spencer's behavior now, I feel like there was
Speaker 1: this compulsion that he just couldn't control. In another letters
Speaker 1: I'm from jail, Spencer theorized that it must have been
Speaker 1: his need for attention that caused his problems, long before
Speaker 1: he and Jennifer reconnected after college. I remember once getting
Speaker 1: a message from a woman saying she was thinking of me.
Speaker 1: It was such a rush I had never had that
Speaker 1: that became my search. This is all backstory. It's what
Speaker 1: I've discovered with so much thinking, meditation, and of course prayer.
Speaker 1: You asked me when the cops were coming to get
Speaker 1: me if I was a sex act. My answer is
Speaker 1: still absolutely no. My problem was at a much more
Speaker 1: intimate level, attention seeking, approval seeking. You can look at
Speaker 1: sex addiction just like you would with any other addiction, gambling, food, heroin, alcohol.
Speaker 1: Somewhere along the line they learned that if I have
Speaker 1: this thing, I'm going to have relief from pain, or
Speaker 1: it could be the offer sing I'm actually going to
Speaker 1: feel a lies for a little while. So it's whether
Speaker 1: someone feels too much, feels too a little, and basically
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to have healthy coping mechanisms in life.
Speaker 1: But really, what makes something an addiction or a compulsive
Speaker 1: disorder is that the person keeps doing it again and
Speaker 1: again and again, and it is bringing a lot of
Speaker 1: harm and dysfunction into their lives and into others, and
Speaker 1: they keep doing it and they're not able to stop.
Speaker 1: Do you think people with these kind of addictions or
Speaker 1: compulsions look for a certain type of person to prey on.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a big piece of this, which, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, is so deeply connected to our patriarchal society
Speaker 1: that teaches us that women are the most value when
Speaker 1: they are beautiful and getting attention from men, and they
Speaker 1: are trained that way from childhood. And here's, you know,
Speaker 1: a charismatic man who is giving them attention, and this
Speaker 1: feeds their own need for validation, making them so vulnerable
Speaker 1: to glooming and the way they are going about trying
Speaker 1: to find worth in this world. Hearing Kim say this,
Speaker 1: maybe think of hope. In Jennifer's rent, they said almost
Speaker 1: the same thing. I got this text message, well you're beautiful.
Speaker 1: Here's an attractive guy telling me I'm pretty. I was
Speaker 1: stressed out, didn't feel pretty all the time, because you know,
Speaker 1: I had kids hanging off me, breastfeeding. I was greasy,
Speaker 1: maybe showered every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes.
Speaker 1: But then I would always hear, you know, like, you're
Speaker 1: so beautiful, You're really really well rounded, You're a great mom.
Speaker 1: But he says that he never sought after any of this.
Speaker 1: He says it was always the women that were giving
Speaker 1: him the eye or letting him know that it was okay,
Speaker 1: when in fact, I have so much communication that proves otherwise.
Speaker 1: Here is exactly what he wrote about Jennifer's friend, the
Speaker 1: one Spencer had sex with at the wine bar. To
Speaker 1: my memory, she was staring at me a lot at
Speaker 1: the bar. I'm sure I noticed it and try to
Speaker 1: dismiss it as just my imagination. I honestly have no
Speaker 1: idea how it actually started. I just don't. It's not
Speaker 1: really important anyway, It's just not It was important to Jennifer,
Speaker 1: and it seems Spencer had amnesia when it came to
Speaker 1: how the affairs started, but the women he remembered specific details.
Speaker 1: I went into the bathroom and when I came out,
Speaker 1: he was there and mentioned, like, you know that we
Speaker 1: have this thing together. You know you're feeling is too right?
Speaker 1: And then he came in for a kiss, then held
Speaker 1: my hand and touched his crotch with my hand on
Speaker 1: the outside of his pants. What is is how it continued.
Speaker 1: I guess she had to be a willing participate. There
Speaker 1: were times when you or her husband were out of town,
Speaker 1: or when she might just linger at the bar. I
Speaker 1: can't give you details because I can't remember them. When
Speaker 1: it was over with her, you can't imagine my relief
Speaker 1: that problem in my life was over. I was so happy.
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest blessings of this situation
Speaker 1: was that Spence was arrested and has remained locked up.
Speaker 1: I haven't had to face him or deal with it
Speaker 1: except for in letters. It's truly a blessing because I
Speaker 1: can't imagine if that person was around to be able
Speaker 1: to lie about the situation. Essentially, I absolutely agree his
Speaker 1: absence and removal from your space and from your life.
Speaker 1: While so painful, allowed you to hear them more quickly,
Speaker 1: and the extreme of his making years make things really
Speaker 1: definitive and clear for you. Jennifer took note of how
Speaker 1: often he used the word love with other women. It's dune.
Speaker 1: She pressed Spencer about that, especially with his colleague in
Speaker 1: the Air Force. I really thought that he loved me.
Speaker 1: He had me convinced that he did. I mean, he
Speaker 1: told me Hope. I know you're really wondering how I
Speaker 1: used the word love with her. I don't know how
Speaker 1: I ever did or could have. I do not and
Speaker 1: never did love her. She's the same as anyone else.
Speaker 1: Whenever I did use that word, I can only assume
Speaker 1: it was to reciprocate her using it, or to maybe
Speaker 1: keep giving me the attention I was still wanting. In
Speaker 1: that same letter, Spencer goes on to say anytime spent
Speaker 1: with Hope was never romantic, anticipated or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Allowing these things to happen was just that, allowing hope.
Speaker 1: But I never had a thing that anyone could see
Speaker 1: or detect. It was that cheap and meaningless. I imagine
Speaker 1: it happened just as with the other one. Dumb looks
Speaker 1: that were accepted as attention and some kind of thing
Speaker 1: I wanted. After each time I was unfaithful, I felt
Speaker 1: disgusting and hurtful to all involve allowing these things to happen.
Speaker 1: Almost sounds like his participation was passive. However, each woman
Speaker 1: who has spoken has consistently shared that Spencer was clear
Speaker 1: about his intentions. And what's said to me is that
Speaker 1: in his letters that he writes, he really minimalizes the
Speaker 1: situations with the victim. It was consensual. She was looking
Speaker 1: at me, she made eyes at me. I find that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of denial and what he believes. When
Speaker 1: people have built up these lies inside of themselves and
Speaker 1: the ways that they operate in the world for so long,
Speaker 1: it's hard for them to know what's really true and
Speaker 1: what's not. He wrote to Jen about the sexual Saul
Speaker 1: victim as a war It is disturbing. I had never
Speaker 1: ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, not at all.
Speaker 1: I tell you this so that you know how it
Speaker 1: all started. In fact, probably for the last ten to
Speaker 1: fifteen years, I have not looked at any teen girl
Speaker 1: as anything but that a teen girl. I had gotten older.
Speaker 1: There were no fantasies. That is one hundred percent true.
Speaker 1: In May, I can remember the students starting to stare
Speaker 1: at me longer looks more often. She was being very
Speaker 1: obvious and it started coming out of nowhere. She also
Speaker 1: started coming by at the end of school, asking random
Speaker 1: questions for no reason. She then started lingering. At the
Speaker 1: end of the club I started to sense something. I
Speaker 1: was packing up to go and was in my office
Speaker 1: and she surprised me. I think she said something like,
Speaker 1: what are you doing and going home? I said, that's
Speaker 1: too bad, she responded. I was in shock and surprised
Speaker 1: by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss. It was
Speaker 1: so very consensual. His account certainly differs from the sexual
Speaker 1: assault victim's account on how they first became involved. He
Speaker 1: had texted me that he had feelings for me. I
Speaker 1: remember feeling I don't know, I guess check it's an understatement.
Speaker 1: That was the first time the boundary was crossed, and
Speaker 1: he told me that he wanted to talk about it
Speaker 1: in person, and I agreed to because I thought maybe
Speaker 1: we could talk about it and that would be that.
Speaker 1: Spencer continued his account of the story in his letter.
Speaker 1: She was very aggressive most of the time. I was
Speaker 1: sure it was something she was super familiar with. In
Speaker 1: other words, I was never taking some leading role, if
Speaker 1: that makes sense. I know it was all my fault
Speaker 1: matter how she was. What I remember feeling most was
Speaker 1: really confused. It didn't feel right, you know. I expressed
Speaker 1: to him that I was a virgin, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if I was ready for anything. Spencer pushed for
Speaker 1: his court appointed attorney to argue his account of the
Speaker 1: victim's complicity in the case. His attorney wisely reminded Spencer
Speaker 1: that remorse was his best legal strategy. While reviewing all
Speaker 1: of the raw materials for the series, our team made
Speaker 1: a shocking discovery. In twenty fifteen, the same year that
Speaker 1: he started sending text messages to the sexual soft victim,
Speaker 1: Spencer made a hard play or at least one other
Speaker 1: student at Kel High School. And yes she was a teenager.
Speaker 1: Well she also the pursuer another girl making eyes at him.
Speaker 1: Here are some of the messages he sent to that student.
Speaker 1: As a warning, these messages may be hard to hear.
Speaker 1: You are so out of my league. Busy tonight, come
Speaker 1: by the bar. You're the focus of all my erotica.
Speaker 1: What about hanging after school? One day? We'd get away
Speaker 1: from this place. Well, since we both trust each other,
Speaker 1: I'm not worried. I think it'd be fun and totally cool,
Speaker 1: no issues, stress or drama. And when he didn't get
Speaker 1: the result he wanted, he tried a different tactic her adulthood.
Speaker 1: You're incredibly pretty and mature. You are a woman, are
Speaker 1: you not? And this? Do you ever think about me?
Speaker 1: In the flesh? The text Spencer sent the other student
Speaker 1: were wildly inappropriate and upsetting, and while we did not
Speaker 1: see evidence that a sexual assault occurred in these text exchanges,
Speaker 1: we did share this information with law enforcement. Everybody gets
Speaker 1: these kinds of dopamine heads affair on Facebook or Instagram,
Speaker 1: and they get a heart or alike, and these things
Speaker 1: start to train the nervous system, like oh, I like that.
Speaker 1: We want more of those pleasure hormones running through our bodies.
Speaker 1: So every time he was texting, every time Spencer was
Speaker 1: being marrying and getting a response from these young women,
Speaker 1: it was released during those endorphins and the darpermine and
Speaker 1: keeping him in the addiction cycle. Another detail that caught
Speaker 1: our attention was the way he described a fantasy to
Speaker 1: the student what their first kiss would be like. I
Speaker 1: keep seeing this image of you and I hanging out
Speaker 1: wherever doesn't matter. But then at some point you lean
Speaker 1: into me as I'm talking and simply kiss me, almost
Speaker 1: like you couldn't wait any longer and couldn't wait for
Speaker 1: me to move towards you. It sounded eerily similar to
Speaker 1: the way he described the sexual assault victim in his
Speaker 1: letter to Jennifer. I was packing up to go and
Speaker 1: was in my office and she surprised me. I think
Speaker 1: she said something like, what are you doing going home?
Speaker 1: I said, that's too bad, she responded. I was in
Speaker 1: shock and surprised by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss.
Speaker 1: It was so very consensual. His fantasy with the other student,
Speaker 1: the one he attempted to seduce, was the same as
Speaker 1: his account to Jennifer of what happened with a sexual
Speaker 1: assault victim. A young girl simply found him irresistible, but
Speaker 1: the reality was quite different. The victim did not initiate
Speaker 1: the relationship. There was one last issue in the case,
Speaker 1: with which Spencer took great umbrage. I would never, could
Speaker 1: never do anything to my accuser that would associate with
Speaker 1: the word assault. I will not leave court without the
Speaker 1: DA and judge knowing any different, Jen, I have never
Speaker 1: thought to force myself on anyone ever. I sure as
Speaker 1: hell wasn't going to do that with a student. Clearly,
Speaker 1: I was already sleeping around, so there was never a reason,
Speaker 1: none for me to treat anyone like she claims i'd
Speaker 1: treated her. Here, he argues that with the number of partners,
Speaker 1: the availability of women he had, what reason would he
Speaker 1: have to be forceful? The victim must be lying. Then
Speaker 1: I thought about the words we heard earlier from Hope.
Speaker 1: Looking back, I remember for a couple of times were
Speaker 1: you know, he would kind of put his hands around
Speaker 1: my throat and push down. That kind of caught me
Speaker 1: off guard. Hearing that story from her, it's heartwrenching. She
Speaker 1: talks about how he was forceful with her at times,
Speaker 1: but then in a letter, he says to me, I
Speaker 1: would never I just feel like in his brain he
Speaker 1: really doesn't see the truth. Again, I haven't been able
Speaker 1: to do any kind of assessment or diagnosis, but I
Speaker 1: would say that having that control and being able to
Speaker 1: manipulate and coerce was part of what fed him. None
Speaker 1: of it is about love or kindness, or connection or
Speaker 1: even the beauty of sex. It's about wounds and control
Speaker 1: and manipulation and trauma to everyone involved, and avoidance of
Speaker 1: anything that feels like intimacy. It's been about two and
Speaker 1: a half years since I spoke with Spence, and I
Speaker 1: really am curious about whether or not he still feels
Speaker 1: the same way in those letters that he wrote to me.
Speaker 1: If that is all still the case, then that means
Speaker 1: very little healing has happened, because those are the beginning
Speaker 1: stages of what someone needs to face in order to heal,
Speaker 1: and those things are all things that also allow the
Speaker 1: addiction cycle to continue. We work with those cognitive distortions
Speaker 1: and therapy and coaching when we're trying to help the
Speaker 1: sex addicts heal. All those things rationalizing, minimizing, they help
Speaker 1: her and not have to look at themselves and take
Speaker 1: full accountability for what they've done. He has been manipulating
Speaker 1: himself and believing all of his own lives for so
Speaker 1: many years that he really can't see the difference probably
Speaker 1: between reality and things that he's making up. There's also
Speaker 1: this other part of him that feels like he needs
Speaker 1: to hold onto that part that you need to hold
Speaker 1: onto Jim when the police took him away, he needs
Speaker 1: to hold on to some part of that within himself,
Speaker 1: and even though he's done all of these things, the
Speaker 1: part that he's holding onto so he doesn't disintegrate or
Speaker 1: totally fall apart is they were okay with it. It
Speaker 1: wasn't as solved. Do you think there's any way that
Speaker 1: Spence has healed himself? From my vast clinical experience, it
Speaker 1: takes a lot of hard recovery work, coaching and therapy groups,
Speaker 1: going through the twelve steps making amends. It's a long journey,
Speaker 1: but one of the first steps is being in some
Speaker 1: kind of recovery group where it will start to break
Speaker 1: down relies and the identity that you've been telling yourself
Speaker 1: all along. I do believe greatly in the power of
Speaker 1: healing and know people cannot heal from this level of
Speaker 1: addiction and other compulsive behaviors without significant therapeutic help from specialists.
Speaker 1: True recovery and healing involves so much accountability, empathy, and compassion.
Speaker 1: If Spence was deeply remorseful, maybe he would come to
Speaker 1: you and say, you know, I'd like to pay back
Speaker 1: for the tens of thousands of dollars that you needed
Speaker 1: for your coaching and your styrapy it's called making living
Speaker 1: a mess. I mean, you wouldn't accept it, and that
Speaker 1: would be a drop in the bucket. But I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: when someone is truly healing and in recovery, there is
Speaker 1: a very big part of them that deeply cares about
Speaker 1: the pain and the impact that they brought into other
Speaker 1: people's lives, and they do what they can to try
Speaker 1: the best to clean that up. I can only work
Speaker 1: on myself, which is what I have been doing now
Speaker 1: for the last few years. You've gone through one of
Speaker 1: the most traumatizing things I've ever heard of. And if
Speaker 1: you did that deep work of learning how to heal
Speaker 1: yourself every day so that you can come out to
Speaker 1: the world and say this happened, this is my story
Speaker 1: and affected me and affected other women too. I'm helping
Speaker 1: to heal those other women by doing this, and it's
Speaker 1: been such an honor to support you and be a
Speaker 1: part of your healing. On the next episode of Betrayal,
Speaker 1: Jennifer confronts Spencer. In one of the letters that you
Speaker 1: wrote me, you said that you never saw it after
Speaker 1: it Do you still feel that way? Well, yes, it's
Speaker 1: just an opportunity would present itself and then before I
Speaker 1: knew it, I was presenting it. I wasn't lucky you
Speaker 1: got away with it. I was unlucky that I was
Speaker 1: get away with it. It be better for it all
Speaker 1: gone the ship the first time, that truth. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us
Speaker 1: at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Facon,
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
Speaker 1: by Carry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchik. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: voice actor Todd Gans. Sound editing and mixing done by
Speaker 1: Mount Devechio. Betrayal's theme was composed by Oliver Bain's music
Speaker 1: library provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Some names have been changed to protect privacy.