1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hi, Betrayal listeners. This week, we just wanted to quickly 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: drop a note to our listeners and say thank you. 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: We've been taking the time to read through all of 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: your emails that you submited at betrayalpod at gmail dot 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: com because so many of you have reached out with 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: your own stories, questions, and feedback. You plan to release 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: bonus content with updates and resources, so stay tuned. But first, 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: here's episode seven. This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: care while listening. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: I was packing up to go and was in my 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: office and she surprised me. I think she said something like, 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad, 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness. 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: Then I remember a kiss. It was so very and sensual. 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Episode seven, Recovery. 16 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: In the first year after Spencer's arrest, Jennifer fought hard 17 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: to move forward and heal, all the while Spencer was 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: sending letters from jail telling her how sorry he was. 19 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: I want to restore our marriage and I'll do whatever 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: it takes for you to believe me about that. I 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: promised myself to be real with you about my true feelings, 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: and that promise also makes me say that I one 23 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: hundred percent believe we can get through this. 24 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: Jennifer understood she was experiencing trauma. She sought help from wise, 25 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: empathetic voices that helped her find her footing. 26 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: My name is Kim Gould. I am a betrayal trauma 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: specialist and coach. It is my deepest passion to help 28 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: people heal from trauma and reclaim their lives. Do this 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 3: profound work at the Center for Relational Healing in Los 30 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: Angeles and then in my own intimacy coaching practice, I 31 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: help people take that healing to the next level. 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 4: Kim, I get so emotional when I think about you 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 4: and the part that you've played on this journey with me, 34 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 4: and I'm just really, really grateful. You know, when all 35 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 4: this happened, I didn't know betrayal trauma was a thing, 36 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 4: and it's. 37 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: A thing, certainly, yes, it is what we commonly refer 38 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: to as a shattered worldview. Betrayal trauma basically takes away 39 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: everything that you thought you knew to be true or 40 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: safe or just in the world. 41 00:02:53,840 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 5: So you're literally like a little baby trying to to 42 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 5: walk and talk and make sense of things in a 43 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 5: nonsensical world. 44 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 3: And what feels like a very dangerous world. 45 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 4: In the beginning, especially, I walked around feeling like there 46 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 4: was an elephant standing on my chest. 47 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly is physiological, emotional, spiritual, cognitive, and mental. 48 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: The trio trauma feels like and it does hijack the 49 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: person going through it, and it did that to you 50 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: at the beginning as well. Physiologically, a large part of 51 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: that is because your nervous system has been shot, there's 52 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: no place to find safety, and your nervous system will 53 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: send you into a hypervigilant state, and the body and 54 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: the brain are sending you into fight or freeze. So 55 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 3: many behaviors come from seeking safety, the being a detective 56 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: and checking emails and texts all night long for hours 57 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: and hours and not able to sleep. This would look like, oh, 58 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 3: the betrayed partner or the woman who is going crazy. 59 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: And there are unfortunately times where women have been misdiagnosed. 60 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 3: As an example of this, many women have been labeled 61 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: as having a personality disorder when they are really just 62 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: adapting to this earth shattering trauma and did not even 63 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 3: have these symptoms before the event, and every single thing 64 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 3: we see a betrayed partner doing is safety seeking behavior. 65 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 6: I relate to that so much, and I think that's 66 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 6: why I'm so consumed by needing to know who it 67 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 6: was that I married, because I I didn't know him. 68 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 6: I didn't know a whole side to him, and that's 69 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 6: so scary. Honestly, my biggest fear coming out of this 70 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 6: and sharing this story with everyone is I know people 71 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 6: are going to ask, how could she not know? How 72 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 6: did you not see any signs? And I just didn't. 73 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: Probably at least fifty percent of the betrayed partners I 74 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: work with say it's like being with Jacko and Hie. 75 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 3: These are not people who, for the most part, were 76 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: mean or on caring to their partners. The majority of 77 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: the women that I've worked with similar to you, Jen, 78 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: were astounded. I'm surprised, and a very smart women and 79 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: very intelligent, intuitive women. These are not women who have 80 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: had their blinders on. What we're talking about is the 81 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 3: acting out partners being so unbelievably skilled at gaslighting and 82 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 3: manipulation and such severe compartmentalization in the brain to be 83 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: able to go out during the day and do certain 84 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: things that are terrible and totally against the value system 85 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: of your marriage, and then to come home and act 86 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: like he loves you and things are fine. I trust 87 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: that Spence was really, really practiced and successful at that, 88 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 3: because you are a very intelligent woman, and you're not naive, 89 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: and you didn't see it, and most betrayed partners don't. 90 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 6: You Listen to my conversation with the student I did. 91 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 6: It was very touching talking with her and the other 92 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 6: two women. That's what this whole journey has been about. 93 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 6: It's really helped me understand the other side of this 94 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 6: person that I thought I really knew. As the police 95 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 6: were leading Spence out the front door of our house, handcuffed, 96 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 6: I yelled out to them, he's a good person. Even 97 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 6: after finding out that he just committed this awful, awful 98 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 6: crime against a young person, I still needed them to 99 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 6: know he was a good person, because in my head 100 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 6: he was somebody completely different. My reality was shattered and 101 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 6: it had not registered. And I'm still struggling to understand 102 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 6: the way he was with me and the way that 103 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 6: I know he behaved and treated many, many, many other women. 104 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: You know, I haven't been able to do any kind 105 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: of sess or diagnosis or anything like that clinically. But 106 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: I would guess that there are other things going on 107 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: besides addiction, like what it feels to me like there 108 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 3: were splinters, like of his personality he learned, you know 109 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: how he was supposed to be a good, healthy husband, 110 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: and maybe there was this other part of him that 111 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: he didn't know how to express. 112 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: In the beginning, all jen had to make sense of 113 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: her life, and all the lies were long confessional letters 114 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: and apologies from Spencer. She wasn't falling for it, but 115 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: that didn't stop him from attempting to manipulate her from 116 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: his jail cell. That first Thanksgiving, he sent her a 117 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: three page letter on all the things he was thankful for. 118 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: I'm thankful for getting to marry my dream girl. I'm 119 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: thankful that you said yes. I'm thankful that one day 120 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: there's a chance that you might forgive me. I'm thankful 121 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: that at some point I might get a shot at 122 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: life again. I'm so very thankful for second chances. I'm 123 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 2: thankful that I will always have hope that my future 124 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: could possibly have you in it. Jennifer. I'm thankful for you. 125 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: There wasn't going to be reconciliation. The apologies were hollow. 126 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: She didn't trust him. How could she. Her eyes were 127 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: wide open, and she wanted to see who he really 128 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,359 Speaker 1: was once and for all. Maybe then she could understand 129 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: what he did and why this happened to her. 130 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 6: Knowing what I do about Spence's behavior now, I feel 131 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 6: like there was this compulsion that he just couldn't control. 132 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: In another letters I'm from Jail, Spencer theorized that it 133 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: must have been his need for attention that caused his problems, 134 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: long before he and Jennifer reconnected after college. 135 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: I remember once getting a message from a woman saying 136 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: she was thinking of me. It was such a rush 137 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: I had never had that that became my search. This 138 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: is all backstory. It's what I've discovered with so much thinking, meditation, 139 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: and of course prayer. You asked me when the cops 140 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: were coming to get me if I was a sex 141 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: act My answer is still absolutely no. My problem was 142 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: at a much more intimate level, attention seeking, approval seeking. 143 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: You can look at sex addiction just like you would 144 00:10:53,200 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: with any other addiction, gambling, food, heroin, alcohol. Somewhere along 145 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: the line they learned that if I have this thing, 146 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: I'm going to have relief from pain, or it could 147 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: be the oppressing I'm actually going to feel live for 148 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: a little while. So it's whether someone feels too much, 149 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: feels too little, and basically doesn't know how to have 150 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: healthy coping mechanisms in life. But really, what makes something 151 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 3: an addiction or a compulsive disorder is that the person 152 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: keeps doing it again and again and again, and it 153 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: is bringing a lot of harm and dysfunction into their 154 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 3: lives and into others, and they keep doing it and 155 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 3: they're not able to stop. 156 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 6: Do you think people with these kind of addictions or 157 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 6: compulsions look for a certain type of person to prey on. 158 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 3: You know, there's a big piece of this, which, in 159 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: my opinion, is so deeply connected to our patriarchal society 160 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: that teaches us that women are the most value when 161 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 3: they are beautiful and getting attention from men, and they 162 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: are trained that way from childhood. And here's, you know, 163 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: a charismatic man who is giving them attention, and this 164 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: feeds their own need for validation, making them so vulnerable 165 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 3: to glooming and the way they are going about trying 166 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: to find worth in this world. 167 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: Hearing Kim say this, maybe think of hope. In Jennifer's front, 168 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: they said almost the same thing. 169 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 7: I got this text message, well, you're beautiful. Here's an 170 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 7: attractive guy telling me I'm pretty. 171 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 8: I was stressed out, didn't feel pretty all the time, 172 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 8: because you know, I had kids hanging off me, breastfeeding. 173 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 8: I was greasy, maybe showered every couple days, maybe washed 174 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 8: up with baby wipes. But then I would always hear, 175 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 8: you know, like, you're so beautiful, You're really really well rounded, 176 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 8: You're a great mom. 177 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 6: But he says that he never sought after any of this. 178 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 6: He says it was always the women that were giving 179 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 6: him the eye or letting him know that it was okay, 180 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 6: when in fact, I have so much communication that proves otherwise. 181 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: Here is exactly what he wrote about Jennifer's friend, the 182 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: one Spencer had sex with at the wine bar. 183 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: To my memory, she was staring at me a lot 184 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: at the bar. I'm sure I noticed it and tried 185 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: to dismiss it as just my imagination. I honestly have 186 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: no idea how it actually started. I just don't. It's 187 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: not really important anyway, It's just not. 188 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: It was important to Jennifer, and it seems Spencer had 189 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: amnesia when it came to how the affairs started, but 190 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: the women he remembered specific details. 191 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 8: I went into the bathroom and when I came out, 192 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 8: he was there and mentioned, like, you know that we 193 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 8: have this thing together. You know you're feeling is too right? 194 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 8: And then he came in for a kiss, then held 195 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 8: my hand and touched his crotch with my hand on 196 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 8: the outside. 197 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: Of his pants. 198 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: What is is how it continued? I guess she had 199 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: to be a willing participant. There were times when you 200 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: or her husband were out of town, or when she 201 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: might just linger at the bar. I can't give you 202 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: details because I can't remember them. When it was over 203 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: with her, you can't imagine my relief that problem in 204 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: my life was over. I was so happy. 205 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 6: I think one of the biggest blessings of this situation 206 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 6: was that Spence was arrested and has remained locked up. 207 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 6: I haven't had to face him or deal with it 208 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 6: except for in letters. It's truly a blessing because I 209 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 6: can't imagine if that person was around to be able 210 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 6: to lie about the situation. 211 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: Essentially, I absolutely agree his absence and removal from your 212 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: space and from your life. While so painful allowed you 213 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: to hear more quickly, and the extreme of his behing 214 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: fears made things really definitive and clear for you. 215 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: Jennifer took note of how often he used the word 216 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: love with other women. It's done. She pressed Spencer about that, 217 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: especially with his colleague in the Air Force. 218 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 7: I really thought that he loved me. He had me 219 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 7: convinced that he did. I mean, he told. 220 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: Me, Hope. I know you're really wondering how I used 221 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: the word love with her. I don't know how I 222 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: ever did or could have. I do not and never 223 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: did love her. She's the same as anyone else. Whenever 224 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: I did use that word, I can only assume it 225 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: was to reciprocate her using it, or to maybe keep 226 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: giving me the attention I was still wanting. 227 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: In that same letter, Spencer goes on. 228 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: To say any time spent with Hope was never romantic, 229 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: anticipated or anything like that. Allowing these things to happen 230 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: was just that, allowing Hope that I never had a 231 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: thing that anyone could see or detect. It was that 232 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: cheap and meaningless. I imagine it happened just as with 233 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: the other one. Dumb looks that were accepted as attention 234 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: and some kind of thing I wanted. After each time 235 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: I was unfaithful, I felt disgusting and hurtful to. 236 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: All involve allowing these things to happen. Almost sounds like 237 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: his participation was passive. However, each woman who has spoken 238 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: has consistently shared that Spencer was clear about his intentions. 239 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 6: And what's sad to me is that in his letters 240 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 6: that he writes, he really minimalizes the situations with the victim. 241 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 6: It was consensual. She was looking at me, she made 242 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 6: eyes at me. I find that there's a lot of 243 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 6: denial and what he believes. 244 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 9: When people have built up these lies inside of themselves 245 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 9: and the ways that they operated in the world for 246 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 9: so long, it's hard for them to know what's really 247 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 9: true and what's not. 248 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: He wrote to Jen about the sexual Saul victim as 249 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: a warning, it is disturbing. 250 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: I had never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, 251 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: not at all. I tell you this so that you 252 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: know how it all started. In fact, probably for the 253 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: last ten to fifteen years, I have not looked at 254 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: any teen girl as anything but that a teen girl. 255 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 2: I had gotten older. There were no fantasies. That is 256 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 2: one hundred percent true. In May, I can remember the 257 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: students starting to stare at me longer looks more often. 258 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: She was being very obvious and it started coming out 259 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: of nowhere. She also started coming by at the end 260 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: of school, asking random questions for no reason. She then 261 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: started lingering. At the end of the club I started 262 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: to sense something. I was packing up to go and 263 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 2: was in my office and she surprised me. I think 264 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: she said something like, what are you doing and going home? 265 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: I said, that's too bad, she responded. I was in 266 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: shock and surprise by her closeness. Then I remember a kiss. 267 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 2: It was so very consensual. 268 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: His account certainly differs from the sexual assault victim's acount 269 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: on how they first became involved. 270 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 10: He had texted me that he had feelings for me. 271 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 10: I remember feeling I don't know. I guess Shack it's 272 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 10: an understatement. That was the first time the boundary was crossed, 273 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 10: and he told me that he wanted to talk about 274 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 10: it in person, and I agreed to because I thought 275 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 10: maybe we could talk about it and that would be that. 276 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: Spencer continued his account of the story in his letter. 277 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 2: She was very aggressive most of the time. I was 278 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: sure it was something she was super familiar with. In 279 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: other words, I was never taking some leading role, if 280 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: that makes sense. I know it was all my fault 281 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: matter how she was. 282 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 10: What I remember feeling most was really confused. 283 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: It didn't feel. 284 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 10: Right, you know. I expressed to him that I was 285 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 10: a virgin, and I don't know if I was ready 286 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 10: for anything. 287 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: Spencer pushed for his court appointed attorney to argue his 288 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: account of the victim's complicity in the case. His attorney 289 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: wisely reminded Spencer that remorse was his best legal strategy. 290 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: While reviewing all of the raw materials for the series, 291 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: our team made a shocking discovery. In twenty fifteen, the 292 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: same year that he started sending text messages to the 293 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: sexual assault victim, Spencer made a hard play for at 294 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: least one other student at l High School. And yes 295 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: she was a tea. Was she also the pursuer another 296 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: girl making eyes at him? Here are some of the 297 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: messages he sent to that student. As a warning, these 298 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: messages may be hard to hear. 299 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: You are so out of my league. Busy tonight, come 300 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: by the bar. You're the focus of all my erotica. 301 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: What about hanging after school? 302 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: One day? 303 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: We'd get away from this place. Well, since we both 304 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: trust each other, I'm not worried. I think it'd be 305 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: fun and totally cool, no issues, stress or drama. 306 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he 307 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: tried a different tactic her adulthood. 308 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: You're incredibly pretty and mature. You are a woman, are 309 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: you not? 310 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: And this? 311 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: Do you ever think about me? In the flesh? 312 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: The text Spencer sent the other student were wildly inappropriate 313 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: and upsetting, and while we did not see evidence that 314 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: a sexual assault occurred in these tax exchanges, we did 315 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: share this information with law enforcement. 316 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: Everybody gets these kinds of dopamine hair to fare on 317 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 3: Facebook or Instagram, and they get a hard or alike, 318 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 3: and these things start to train the nervous system like oh, 319 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 3: I like that. We want more of those pleasure hormones 320 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 3: running through our bodies. So every time he was texting, 321 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: every time Spence was emailing and getting a response from 322 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: these young women, it was released through those endorphins and 323 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 3: the dopermine and keeping him in the addiction cycle. 324 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: Another detail that caught our attention was the way he 325 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: described a fantasy to the student what their first kiss 326 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 1: would be like. 327 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: I keep seeing this image of you and I hanging 328 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: out wherever, it doesn't matter. But then at some point 329 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 2: you lean into me as I'm talking and simply kiss me, 330 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: almost like you couldn't wait any longer and couldn't wait 331 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 2: for me to move towards you. 332 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: It sounded eerily similar the way he described the sexual 333 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: assault victim in his letter to Jennifer. 334 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: I was packing up to go and was in my 335 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: office and she surprised me. I think she said something like, 336 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: what are you doing going home? I said, that's too bad, 337 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: she responded. I was in shock and surprise by her closeness. 338 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 2: Then I remember a kiss. It was so very consensual. 339 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: His fantasy with the other student, the one he attempted 340 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: to seduce, was the same as his account to Jennifer 341 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: of what happened with the sexual assault victim. A young 342 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: girl simply found him irresistible, but the reality was quite different. 343 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: The victim did not initiate the relationship. There was one 344 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: last issue in the case, with which Spencer took great umbrage. 345 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: I would never, could never do anything to my accuser 346 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 2: that would associate with the word assault. I will not 347 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 2: leave court without the DA and judge knowing any different, Jen, 348 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: I have never thought to force myself on anyone ever. 349 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: I sure as hell wasn't going to do that with 350 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 2: a student. Clearly, I was already sleeping around, so there 351 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: was never a reason, none for me to treat anyone 352 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: like she claims i'd treated her. 353 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: Here, he argues that with the number of partners, the 354 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: availability of women he had, what reason would he have 355 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: to be forceful? The victim must be lying. Then I 356 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: thought about the words we heard earlier from Hope. 357 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 7: Looking back, I remember for a couple of times where 358 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 7: you know, he would kind of put his hands around 359 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 7: my throat and push down. That kind of caught me 360 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 7: off guard. 361 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 6: Hearing that story from her, it's heart wrenching. She talks 362 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 6: about how he was forceful with her at times, but 363 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 6: then in a letter, he says to me, I would 364 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 6: never I just feel like in his brain he really 365 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 6: doesn't see the truth. 366 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: Again, I haven't been able to do any kind of 367 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: sess man or diagnosis, but I would say that having 368 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: that control and being able to manipulate and coerce was 369 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 3: part of what fed him. None of it is about 370 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 3: love or kindness, or connection. 371 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 9: Or even the beauty of sex. 372 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 3: It's abound wounds and control and manipulation and trauma to 373 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 3: everyone involved, and avoidance of anything that feels like intimacy. 374 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 6: It's been about two and a half years since I 375 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 6: spoke with Spence, and I really am curious about whether 376 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 6: or not he still feels the same way in those 377 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 6: letters that he wrote to me. 378 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 3: If that is all still the case, and that means 379 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 3: very little healing has happened, because those are the beginning 380 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: stages of what someone needs to face in order to heal, 381 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: and those things are all things that also allow the 382 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: addiction cycle to continue. We work with those cognitive distortions 383 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: in therapy and coaching when we're trying to help the 384 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: sex addicts heal. All those things rationalizing, minimizing, they help 385 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: her and not have to look at themselves and take 386 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: full accountability for what they've done. He has been manipulating 387 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: himself and believing all of his own lives for so 388 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: many years that he really can't see the difference probably 389 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 3: between reality and things that he's making up. There's also 390 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 3: this other part of him that feels like he needs 391 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 3: to hold onto that part that you needed to hold 392 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 3: on to Jim when the police took him away he 393 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 3: needs to hold on to some part of that within himself. 394 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 3: And even though he's done all of these things, the 395 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 3: part that he's holding onto so he doesn't disintegrate or 396 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 3: totally fall apart is they were okay with it. It 397 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 3: wasn't a salt. 398 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 6: Do you think there's any way that Spence has healed himself. 399 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 3: From my vast clinical experience, it takes a lot of 400 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: hard recovery work, coaching and therapy groups, going through the 401 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 3: twelve steps making amends. It's a long journey, but one 402 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: of the first steps is being in some kind of 403 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 3: recovery group where it will start to break down the 404 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: lies and the identity that you've been telling yourself all along. 405 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 3: I do believe greatly in the power of healing, and 406 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: no people cannot hear from this level of addiction and 407 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 3: other compulsive behaviors without significant therapeutic help from specialists. True 408 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: recovery and hearing involves so much account bilit empathy, and compassion. 409 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: If Spence was deeply remorseful, maybe he would come to 410 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: you and say, you know, I'd like to pay you 411 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: back for the tens of thousands of dollars that you 412 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: needed for your coaching and your therapy. It's called making 413 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,479 Speaker 3: living a mess. I mean, you wouldn't accept it, and 414 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: that would be a drop in the bucket. But I'm 415 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: just saying, when someone is truly healing and in recovery, 416 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: there is a very big part of them that deeply 417 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 3: cares about the pain and the impact that they brought 418 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: into other people's lives, and they do what they can 419 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 3: to try their best to clean that up. 420 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 6: I can only work on myself, which is what I 421 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 6: have been doing now for the last few years. 422 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 3: You've gone through one of the most traumatizing things I've 423 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 3: ever heard of, and you who did that deep work 424 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 3: of learning how to heal yourself every day so that 425 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: you can come out to the world and say this happened, 426 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: this is my story. It affected me and affected other 427 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 3: women too. I'm hoping to heal those other women by 428 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: doing this, and it's been such an honor to support 429 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 3: you and be a part of your healing. 430 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Betrayal, Jennifer confronts Spencer. 431 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 6: In one of the letters that you wrote me, you 432 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 6: said that you never thought after it. 433 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 3: Do you still feel that way? 434 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 11: Well, yes, it's just an opportunity would present itself and 435 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 11: then before I knew it, I was pursuing it. I 436 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 11: wasn't lucky you got away with it. I was unlucky 437 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 11: that I was getting away with it. It be better for 438 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 11: it to all go on to ship the first time. 439 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: Truth. 440 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 441 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's 442 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production 443 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and 444 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by 445 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 446 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced 447 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and 448 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound 449 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: editing and mixing done by Matt Tavecchio. Betrayal's theme was 450 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music 451 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 452 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Some names 453 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: have been changed to protect privacy.