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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It is Sunday, February first.

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Speaker 2: It's the the month you can run dance on everybody.

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Speaker 2: Steffanie is still out so after a big week in Sundance,

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Speaker 2: which we are so proud and we cannot wait to

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Speaker 2: unpack with her on all of it. We want all

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Speaker 2: the tea, we want all the gossips, we want all

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Speaker 2: the outfits, we want everything. However, a tree fell on

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Speaker 2: her house while she was gone her first snowstorm. She

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Speaker 2: leaves the state to go to Sundance and a tree

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Speaker 2: falls on our house. Stephanie, we are so sorry, and listen,

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Speaker 2: we're not laughing. No, we're not laughing. But listen, you

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Speaker 2: are not allowed to leave anymore. You have to stay

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Speaker 2: here with us. But guess what. We have a stacked

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Speaker 2: night of headlines. We have a major win for Luigi

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Speaker 2: Manngiom's defense and his life. And Brandon Banfield gives a

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Speaker 2: staggering testimony in the all Pair murder trial. And I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do a little deep dive into the infamous

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Speaker 2: West Memphis three case. Oh that was a mouthful, Courtney.

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Speaker 3: Satti, you got it all out that that was a

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Speaker 3: particularly stacked.

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Speaker 2: It was, And you know, I forgot one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest things on Friday. Did you hear about the Epstein

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Speaker 2: dump that came out? It was substantial. So on Friday,

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Speaker 2: the Justice Department released a massive new trove of Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein related records. And you know, this is all part

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Speaker 2: of the discourse that's been mandated by the Epstein Files

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Speaker 2: Transparency Act. The new document dump has tens of thousands

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Speaker 2: of pages of photos, videos, court records, internal FBI and

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Speaker 2: dj documents. And I watched some of these videos. They

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Speaker 2: are pretty weird. There's a lot to unpack. But listen,

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Speaker 2: we're still digging through everything, and we can't do epscene

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Speaker 2: without Stephanie. We will our heads will roll, Okay, So

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Speaker 2: we're gonna wait for Stephanie on that We're going to

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Speaker 2: be unpacking all this shocking new information later in this week.

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Speaker 4: And that was a lot to say, job, and.

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Speaker 3: I honestly, I can't wait, I know, we're moving on

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Speaker 3: to other business and we will wait to dig through

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Speaker 3: it all with Stephanie. But that guy, the one formerly

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Speaker 3: known as Prince Andrew, has a lot of explain and

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of people nasty business.

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Speaker 3: So what do you got for okay, Luigimanjonne, we got

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Speaker 3: a couple of orders of business and they all blew

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Speaker 3: my mind. To be honest with you, So a federal

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Speaker 3: judge has ruled that accused Healthcare CEO shooter Luigiman Geoe

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Speaker 3: indeed will not face the death penalty and the charge

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Speaker 3: was dismissed after the only federal charge that made him

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Speaker 3: death eligible went away. And secondarily, this update comes just

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Speaker 3: days after a super bizarre and failed attempt to break

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Speaker 3: him out of jail.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I heard about this right.

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Speaker 3: It is crazy Like madness just follows this case. So

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Speaker 3: if you need to be caught up. Mangione is accused

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Speaker 3: of assassinating United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. This is back

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Speaker 3: in December twenty twenty four in midtown Manhattan. We likely

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Speaker 3: remember seeing the video. Happened, you know, nine am on

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Speaker 3: a workday in the middle of the city, and prosecutors

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Speaker 3: alleged that this attack was both ideologically motivated and meticulously planned.

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Speaker 3: And further complicating things, Mangionne faces overlap being federal New

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Speaker 3: York State as well as Pennsylvania charges, and all of

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Speaker 3: that together makes us one of the most complex and

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Speaker 3: closely watched criminal prosecutions that I can remember.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, at the federal level too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is pretty intense stuff.

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Speaker 3: So absolutely so, just this weekend and I got the news.

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Speaker 3: I literally I woke up, did what I rarely do

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Speaker 3: and talk against, which is a kind of open my

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Speaker 3: phone real quan and saw this and had just a

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Speaker 3: line of expletives just fly out of my mouth when

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Speaker 3: I was half opening my eyes. So I was just

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Speaker 3: so surprised. So this weekend, the US District Judge Margaret

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Speaker 3: Garnett ruled that, you know, mangi Owne will not face

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Speaker 3: the death penalty again. And she went on to say,

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Speaker 3: this is a quote. The analysis contained in the balance

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Speaker 3: of this opinion may strike the average person, and indeed

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Speaker 3: many lawyers and judges as tortured and strange, and the

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Speaker 3: result may seem contrary to our intuitions about criminal law,

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Speaker 3: but it represents the Court's committed efforts to faithfully apply

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Speaker 3: the dictates of the Supreme Court to the charges in

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Speaker 3: this case. And what happened was Judge Garnett rejected the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor's argument that mangi owns alleged stalking of the Healthcare

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Speaker 3: CEO Brian Thompson qualified as a predicate crime of violence. Oh, which, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so that's the legal requirement for capital murder under federal law.

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Speaker 2: And that's the one that they were accusing, saying that

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Speaker 2: he did he stalked him, right, correct, And she's saying,

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Speaker 2: let me desclaire, Is she saying that stalking is not

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Speaker 2: a crime of violence? Is that what this judge is saying, Well, what.

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Speaker 3: She's saying is that, yeah. I mean what it does

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Speaker 3: is the ruling leaves mangeone facing two federal stalking charges,

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Speaker 3: and each one of them carries a maximum sentence of

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Speaker 3: life in prison without parole, so he could still you know,

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Speaker 3: be in prison the rest of his life, but death

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Speaker 3: penalties off the table. So really it's the it's the

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Speaker 3: predicate the crime of violence panning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the predicates of the death penalty on

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Speaker 2: a federal level is a crime of violence. And she

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Speaker 2: is saying that this stalking did not qualify as one

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Speaker 2: of those predicate acts. That's very interesting. Maybe it's something

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Speaker 2: that we could unpack with Jarrett a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Going to jump in and say, I think.

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Speaker 2: I'm just a dummy read you know, reading the.

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Speaker 4: Far from that, but the opinion.

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Speaker 2: Of the dud and it reads to me like she's

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Speaker 2: saying stalking is not a you know, a crime of violence.

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Speaker 4: And that's how I took it as well, which is

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Speaker 4: why I want to be.

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Speaker 2: Wrong about that. You know that the judge would say

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Speaker 2: that stalking is a crime of violence, but maybe just

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Speaker 2: that is was not right, right, And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if I don't know if there's

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Speaker 2: a difference, right, because you kind of have to applau

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Speaker 2: apply the law equally everywhere to everyone, right well, but.

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Speaker 3: Each case, you know, each case individually. So maybe you know,

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Speaker 3: her reading of these specific actions alleged by the prosecution

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Speaker 3: in this case didn't come to the standard. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think Jared will help us.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you didn't meet those stalking standards that you

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Speaker 2: know are laid out federally. I really like to unpack

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Speaker 2: that with Jared because it's very interesting to me.

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Speaker 5: If it's okay, Yes, I'm on board with that. I

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Speaker 5: might even try to get him sooner than usual. Just uh,

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Speaker 5: as you know, there's been a lot of cases that

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Speaker 5: that I've already had questions about.

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Speaker 2: You really could just be a co host at this point.

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Speaker 5: At this point, just just things and get ready to

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Speaker 5: move in with us, because you're part of.

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Speaker 3: The right exactly.

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Speaker 2: It could be our Charlie number two to the charlie's age.

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Speaker 3: So the prosecutors told the court they haven't yet decided

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Speaker 3: whether to appeal the ruling, which will be interesting, and

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Speaker 3: Garnett ordered the Justice Department to update the court by

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Speaker 3: the end of this month, by February twenty seventh, and

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Speaker 3: it's going to be a really high stakes decision point

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Speaker 3: for the DOJ.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I appeal it.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they are either, but we'll see. I mean, well,

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Speaker 3: we'll know within a month. And listen, if you are

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Speaker 3: just joining us, this is true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 3: I'm here with Body movin And as Body mentioned, Stephanie

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Speaker 3: Lydecker is out due to a treat having come through

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Speaker 3: her house after an eventful week at Sundance, so we'll

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Speaker 3: have at.

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Speaker 2: It only happened to our dear Stephanie.

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Speaker 4: I feel so bad for her.

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Speaker 2: I'm only being lighthearted about it because if she's listening,

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Speaker 2: and I'm assuming that she is, Yeah, I don't want her.

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Speaker 2: I want her to giggle at herself. I don't want

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Speaker 2: her to be like I can't believe a tree fill

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Speaker 2: in my mouth. I wonder about it at least a

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Speaker 2: little bit.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe yes, with time or hopefully now. So this

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Speaker 3: is happy news to my ears because Judge Garnett, in

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Speaker 3: a separate ruling on the very same day, did allow

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Speaker 3: prosecutors to introduce the backpack that was seized during Mangione's arrest.

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Speaker 3: So that does include the nine milimeter handgun, the ammunition,

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Speaker 3: and a notebook that prosecutors say show intent and the

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Speaker 3: ideological motive. So that, I mean, that's a that's a

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Speaker 3: relief because that was you know, a big question on

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Speaker 3: the table of if that could be introduced, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, you use relief, I go questionable, But.

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Speaker 3: I know how you feel about it, Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 3: You think there were so many mitigating.

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Speaker 2: And that's where I'm kind of like halfway okay with it.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Yeah, there were a lot

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Speaker 2: of things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but what what taking the taking the stalking off?

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Speaker 3: It makes the federal case much narrower, and honestly, it's

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Speaker 3: more vulnerable now with the most serious charge dismissed. So

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Speaker 3: now the prosecutors are, you know, have to build a

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Speaker 3: different narrative than they had intended, right.

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Speaker 2: Because they were going to apply all that stalking narrative, right,

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Speaker 2: and now it has to go straight to murder.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. And even the dates of this

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Speaker 3: trial are being contested. So the Manhattan prosecutors they're pushing

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Speaker 3: to start on July first, and are arguing that delay

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Speaker 3: would prejudice the case. The federal trial, we know, is

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Speaker 3: scheduled for jury selection all the way out in September,

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Speaker 3: and opening statements are slated for October thirteenth.

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Speaker 2: So that's why August Ooh, that's a narrow So the

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Speaker 2: state wants to charge the beginning of summer in July,

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Speaker 2: and then the federal government wants to start jury selection

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Speaker 2: on the eighth, So that's some two months the state case,

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Speaker 2: they might be able to pull it off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so interestingly, the evidence admissibility, it's unsettled across

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Speaker 3: juris jurisdictions. So you know, as we said, federally, Judge

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Speaker 3: Garnet said, yes, that evidence obtained in the backpack during

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Speaker 3: Luigiman Jones ar rest in Pennsylvania is in the New

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Speaker 3: York State judge hasn't ruled and does not have to

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Speaker 3: decide until May. Oh really yep.

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Speaker 2: I wonder in Pennsylvania if they're going to have to

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Speaker 2: roll on it too, because remember, he's being charged with

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Speaker 2: carrying an unlicensed weapon and you know all those things

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Speaker 2: that all came from.

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Speaker 3: The backpack, right, Yeah, I don't know what those I know.

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Speaker 2: There, Yes, if anybody knows, let us know. But I

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Speaker 2: mean I would imagine that the judge in Pennsylvania is

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Speaker 2: also going to have to rule on that Fourth Amendment issue.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, Yeah, whether it was a legal

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Speaker 2: search of the backpack.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's where it took place, and it

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Speaker 3: would be everything at issue in Pennsylvania really is.

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Speaker 2: The backpack everything at issues?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Pretty much?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Changing course to another bizarre turn in the Man's

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Speaker 3: You Own case. On the thirtieth of January, a man

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Speaker 3: named Mark Anderson. He's a thirty six year old he's

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Speaker 3: from Minnesota. So this guy Anderson was arrested for allegedly

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Speaker 3: attempting to Freeman Gione from MDC Brooklyn by impersonating an

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Speaker 3: FBI agent.

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Speaker 4: What wow.

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Speaker 3: If there's things to do, don't do that.

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Speaker 4: Rights not a wise choice.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like bank robbing. We were talking about

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Speaker 3: that case the other night, Like, don't rob banks, don't

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Speaker 3: appreciate the federal officer. Anderson claimed that he had a

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Speaker 3: court order order signed by a judge that authorized Manchion's

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Speaker 3: release and told the officers He's like, listen, I'm armed,

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Speaker 3: and guess what authorities found on his person after a search.

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Speaker 3: He was armed. He was not armed with the gum bodyboo.

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Speaker 3: He was armed with a pizza cutter and a barbecue

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Speaker 3: fork in his bag.

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Speaker 2: Oh, this guy thought he was going to walk in

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Speaker 2: and pretend to be an FBI agent. They were just

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Speaker 2: going to hand over one of the most high profile,

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Speaker 2: you know people they have in their jail from Minnesota,

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Speaker 2: that pizza cutter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this tracks, and then what now you're going to

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Speaker 4: drive off with the like where to go?

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Speaker 3: But yeah no, and the barbecue fork, I mean, very

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Speaker 3: question very questionable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So.

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Speaker 3: Anderson in fact, he has disclosed mental illness during prior

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Speaker 3: court filings. Yeah, and he has a history of arrest.

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Speaker 2: Okay, led with that.

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Speaker 5: Make the jokes about feel really crappy.

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Speaker 3: Fair enough, I should have led with that, but I was.

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Speaker 3: I was just so shocked that, you know, in anyone

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Speaker 3: in kind of any mental state would think they could

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Speaker 3: walk into that federal prison and flee.

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Speaker 2: As you said, depending on what his illness is, he

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Speaker 2: could have some kind of delusions of grandeur, right like,

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Speaker 2: you know that maybe he really believes he's an FBI agent,

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Speaker 2: right like, maybe he really thought that he was working

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Speaker 2: for the federal government. He was going to transfer Luigi

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Speaker 2: from you know, this prison to that prison, or who knows.

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Speaker 2: But I wonder, I wonder if they're going to investigate

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Speaker 2: if there's some kind of like communication between Luigi and

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Speaker 2: this accused liberator Mark Anderson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I guarantee they will, and it will be curious,

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Speaker 3: you know what the result is. Right in the meantime,

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Speaker 3: Anderson has been ordered held without bail and is in

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Speaker 3: fact charge with impersonating a federal agent. There has been

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Speaker 3: no plea entered, So stay tuned and we will be

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Speaker 3: you know, we'll be unpacking all of this questions with

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Speaker 3: Jarrett Farantino in a couple of days.

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Speaker 2: And we have another list. But listen, when we come back,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna have the latest in the Ohio double murder

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Speaker 2: where prosecutors are saying Michael McKee stalked his ex wife

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Speaker 2: before killing her and her husband, Plus the latest with

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Speaker 2: the Florida woman charged in the murder of one husband

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Speaker 2: and suspected in killing the other. Keep it right here

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Speaker 2: at your grim tonight.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crimsnight on iHeartRadio. We are talking

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Speaker 3: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. Here is

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Speaker 3: always with Body movin and our beloved Stephanie Lydecker is

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Speaker 3: out due to some tree damage that we'll update you

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Speaker 3: on later in the week. And later in this show,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about some staggering testimony given

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Speaker 3: by Brandon Banfield in the off air murder trial. And

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Speaker 3: Body's going to guide us to through a deep dive

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Speaker 3: on the infamous West Memphis three case Pins and needles

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Speaker 3: to hear about it. But first Body fill.

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Speaker 2: Us in, so I have an update on the double

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Speaker 2: murder of Remember the dentist and his wife that were

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Speaker 2: murdered of from Columbus. Yeah, so there's newly unsealed court

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Speaker 2: records and they revealing that the the suspect in this case,

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Speaker 2: the surgeon Mike McKee, visited his ex wife and victims

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Speaker 2: Monique Tepe's Columbus home multiple times in the weeks before

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Speaker 2: she and her husband, Spencer Tepe, were fatally shot. Monique

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Speaker 2: Tepe she was thirty nine, and her husband, Spencer Tepe,

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Speaker 2: he was thirty seven. They were found shot to death

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Speaker 2: December thirtieth of twenty twenty five inside of their suburban

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Speaker 2: Columbus home, while their two young children were unharmed. Thankfully.

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Speaker 2: Investigators quickly focused on Monique Tepe's ex husband, and he's

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Speaker 2: a surgeon. His name is Michael McKee, and there's a

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Speaker 2: cited history of alleged abuse, stalking, some threats, and he's

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Speaker 2: now facing aggravated murder and aggravated burglary charges. So the

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Speaker 2: surveillance footage that they found shows that on December sixth,

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Speaker 2: Michael McKee he toured like the yard area of the

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Speaker 2: Tepe home for hours while the couple attended a Big

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Speaker 2: Ten Championship football game. Wow, so while we're at the game,

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Speaker 2: he's lorcern around their house. And this is only what

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Speaker 2: three weeks three or so weeks before the murders. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: answered in the house.

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Speaker 5: Early on we were saying with this case that the

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Speaker 5: person they didn't break in like it was. I guess

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Speaker 5: it wasn't a forced entry, if you will.

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Speaker 2: It didn't seem like it, right. There were no obvious

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Speaker 2: points of entry that we that we could tell, but

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing taha that he kind of slid in through

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Speaker 2: the basement window.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And now that we know he's been tracking, he's

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Speaker 5: seen the property, he probably was kind of clear on

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Speaker 5: where how easy it was to do that.

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Speaker 2: So exactly he scoped it out right. So friends of

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Speaker 2: the victims, the Tepe's, they reported that the suspect, again

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Speaker 2: he is the ex husband of the victim, Monique, had

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Speaker 2: previously four unwanted sex. He strangled Monique and said he

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Speaker 2: could and I'm going to quote kill her at any time,

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Speaker 2: and quote would find her and buy the house right

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Speaker 2: next to her, and that she will always be his wife.

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Speaker 2: So he was not letting go, like clearly not letting go.

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Speaker 2: Could you imagine I'm going to buy the house next

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 3: That would make up that wouldn't make anyone. So, I mean,

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Speaker 3: uneasy is the understatement. But what a horrible threat and

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Speaker 3: to have that looming and the fact that he was

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Speaker 3: physically and obviously it sounded mentally terroristic to her.

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Speaker 5: But from a legal standpoint, like and maybe this is

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Speaker 5: a Jared question, I thought in Ohio with the divorces,

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Speaker 5: that there was some sort of restraining order that came

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Speaker 5: into effects.

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Speaker 2: That was in Virginia when they got the work. Was

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Speaker 2: it Ohio they got divorced.

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Speaker 5: I can't remember now, okay, I can't either, But either

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Speaker 5: way it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 4: A restraining order would be an effect or in some way,

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Speaker 4: and he could.

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Speaker 2: But the restraining order was an automatic thing, regardless of

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Speaker 2: whether it was in Virginia or Ohio. It's automatic, and

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Speaker 2: it's only during the divorce. Only like during that period.

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Speaker 4: So got it.

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Speaker 2: Your finances are stable, you know, things aren't going crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's only really active during the divorce. Now that's carry on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's unfortunately. Okay.

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Speaker 2: They also have his phone activity from December twenty ninth.

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Speaker 2: Remember they were murdered, they believe on the thirtieth. His

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Speaker 2: phone activity from December twenty ninth until afternoon on the thirtieth,

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Speaker 2: aligns with what investigators believe to be the time of

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Speaker 2: the killings. They believe the killings occurred around three fifty AM,

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Speaker 2: and then of course we know they were discovered right

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Speaker 2: before ten am, at around nine point forty. So the

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Speaker 2: US have information about his phone inactivity, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Remember this is this happened in Idaho too, right They

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Speaker 2: One of the things that you know suspicious is that

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Speaker 2: Brian Coberger's phone had been turned off during the time

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Speaker 2: of the killings, which is just unusual to or after. Right,

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Speaker 2: same thing with this guy. So the silver suv that

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Speaker 2: he was driving was repeatedly seen near the Tepe home

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Speaker 2: and there were stolen Ohio and Arizona plates which linked

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Speaker 2: him geographically to the investigation. So that vehicle, it's been

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Speaker 2: identifying court records. It's a silver suv. It had been

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Speaker 2: seen on surveillance several times at different times. It had

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Speaker 2: distinct fincture, there was a visible sticker on the window,

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Speaker 2: was seen with a stolen license plate and an Arizona

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Speaker 2: license plate. The suv was linked to a past address

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Speaker 2: in Rockford, Illinois and associated with the suspect, David McKee

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Speaker 2: and the hospital where he worked. So that was pretty interesting.

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Speaker 2: And then police, you know, they match this suv V

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Speaker 2: in the surveillance footage. For a little bit of background, David.

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Speaker 2: I keep seeing David, but that's his middle name. His

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Speaker 2: name is Michael. Michael was arrested in Rockford, Illinois. He

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Speaker 2: was extradited to Ohio and a preliminary ballistics match links

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Speaker 2: a firearm from his Chicago condo to the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: On January twenty third, he entered a not guilty plea

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Speaker 2: and is being held without bond at the Franklin Clowney Jail.

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Speaker 2: We're going to keep following this one. It's very interesting,

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Speaker 2: very very tragic, and we're definitely going to be following

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Speaker 2: on this one. Stick around. Courtney's going to give us

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Speaker 2: an update on something. Courtney, what do you know?

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Okay, we touched on this case a

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Speaker 3: while ago, and it is really something. So one year

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Speaker 3: old woman named Susan Erica Avalon. She's now pleaded not

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Speaker 3: guilty to murdering both of her ex husbands on the

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Speaker 3: same day. She has now formally requested a jury trial,

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Speaker 3: and the homicide investigations continue. So the alleged shootings of

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Speaker 3: both of her ex husbands, David Scott and Timothy Fletcher.

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Speaker 3: It just happened seventeenth, twenty twenty five. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 3: really it's so sad, So Susan Avalon. She shared children

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Speaker 3: with both of these men. And again, both of these men,

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Speaker 3: David Scott and Timothy Fletcher, their lives are lost, They're done. So.

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Speaker 3: Avalon was arrested the next day at her home in Florida,

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Speaker 3: and evidence suggests that she may have killed Timothy Fletcher

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Speaker 3: first in Tampa, Florida, before traveling to another town, Bradenton,

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Speaker 3: to kill David Scott. I mean, I would be curious, honestly,

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Speaker 3: the odds of when has this happened before? To kill

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Speaker 3: two x spouses in one Yeah, I don't think I've.

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Speaker 2: Ever heard of I don't think I've ever heard of

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Speaker 2: that before. I haven't ands or whatever, but.

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Speaker 4: Not two in the same day the day, but.

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Speaker 2: Too regardless, like even if it's a weak apart, I

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Speaker 2: don't write.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 3: So, Amanatee County sheriff, a guy named Rick Wells. He

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Speaker 3: said that Avalon masquerated as a Panera delivery driver and

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Speaker 3: this was all in an effort to surprise and then

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Speaker 3: shoot her ex husband, David Scott, and it was right

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the afternoon, around two fifty five.

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Speaker 3: Before he even lost consciousness, the victim, David Scott, told police,

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Speaker 3: possibly it's my ex wife, and describe the shooter as

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Speaker 3: a person wearing a gray sweatshirt, a mask like a

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Speaker 3: like a COVID mask, and holding a Panera bread. Excuse me,

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Speaker 3: bag bread.

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Speaker 2: I's online.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Now Scott's even making, you know, a

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Speaker 3: tragedy more tragic. David Scott's fifteen year old daughter saw

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Speaker 3: a silver Honda Odyssey and what's described as a short

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Speaker 3: and heavy set individual and a gray sweatshirt leaving the

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Speaker 3: scene and had the wherewithal to Paul nine one want

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Speaker 3: to support her mother's possible involvement, So that is it's

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Speaker 3: her mother, it's your mother.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: She imagine having to call one one one and say

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Speaker 2: I think my mom shot my dad.

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Speaker 4: Oh dad, really, I wonder she thought.

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Speaker 5: I was curious if she thought it was her mom

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Speaker 5: at that time because of the mask or I'm assuming

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Speaker 5: most children would.

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Speaker 2: She is the one that heard her dad say well,

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Speaker 2: also she saw a silver Honda Odyssey and recognize a

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Speaker 2: person and.

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Speaker 3: We you know, you're fifteen. You know your mother's figure.

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Speaker 3: You know, if I was walking down the hallway and

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Speaker 3: my kid would it doesn't matter what I am in.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I just went and looked again, and he

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Speaker 2: had told police it was possibly his ex wife, So

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Speaker 2: he was conscious for a hot minute.

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Speaker 3: I know, I'm living in that moment. And the sheriff

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Speaker 3: really he was laudable to this girl and said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I want you to understand how traumatized she is. She

436
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: had no idea what was going on, but I had

437
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: to wherewithal to give this information. So in any case,

438
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 3: that is what happened at the Scott residence. And Scott

439
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: later died just about an hour later. For two that day,

440
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: and police discovered, in addition to the panera, you know,

441
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: fake delivery that the accused was bringing, also too, nine

442
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 3: millimeters shellcasings.

443
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 5: What oh, I think I think they recovered the shellcasings.

444
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: Is that what you need?

445
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 6: She left two shell casings, correct, So the police recovered, Yeah,

446
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 6: she had left, and then they tracked, you know, due

447
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 6: to the wherewith all of her own and David Scott's

448
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 6: fifteen year old daughter.

449
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 3: They used the information about the odyssey and tracked Avalon

450
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 3: to her home and she was not suspicious at all.

451
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: She was cleaning the driver's seat of her car with

452
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: bleach and rags. At eight fifty six pm, So and

453
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: Sheriff Wells came up to her, had questions about involved

454
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 3: with her ex husband and she said which one at

455
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: that point? Crazy and yeah. So then that tipped them off.

456
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: He's like, we only know about one, right, so what

457
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: are you talking about?

458
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 4: Yeah? Exactly.

459
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: It turns out that Avalon had told her living boyfriend

460
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: at ten thirty that morning quote if anything happens to me,

461
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 3: I love you, and later exclaimed F David and F Tim,

462
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: obviously referencing her too ex husband. And the living boyfriend

463
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 3: said that this behavior was odd and out of character. Wow,

464
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: but go ahead.

465
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 5: I was just going to say, can we unpack the

466
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 5: fact that she's already on with somebody news. So she

467
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 5: has a new boyfriend who I don't know if I

468
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 5: if I were him, but I would be freaked out

469
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 5: if he had these two stories she's called two ex'es

470
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 5: she's been with me.

471
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: I know, yeh.

472
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: He literally dodged a bullet here, right, yeah, Oh my goodness,

473
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: And I say, your daughter though, imagine this poor girl.

474
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: And and she she has kids with both of them

475
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: now deceased exes. God, So I mean she's just ruined

476
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: families upon families.

477
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: If kids now have their entire world upended, their mother

478
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: is going to prison for killing their father, absolutely, and

479
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 2: they obviously must have lived with him, right, Like.

480
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: I don't like her, Yeah, she, I mean she she

481
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: does not seem like ex wife of the Year in

482
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: this moment at all.

483
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: And so maybe Okay, So the sheriffs go out to

484
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: the house and they're like, do you have a problem

485
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: with your ex husband? And she's like, which or did you?

486
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: Uh whatever? Would they ask her?

487
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: I was questioning about her ex husband? Yeah, what we

488
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: have some question. I would love to question you about

489
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: your husband.

490
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: So they go and they're like, we only know about one,

491
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: So they go check on the second victim. Is that

492
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: what happened?

493
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 4: You are correct? Yeah?

494
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: And then exactly right, And so the discovery of the

495
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: second victim, once the investigators did learn that Avalon had

496
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: another ex husband, Timothy Fletcher, who lived in Tampa, who

497
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: had custody disputes. Yeah, was later found shot dead in

498
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: his house. And the timeline that's believed and this is

499
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: per Sheriff Wells, so that Avalon likely killed Fletcher first

500
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: in Tampa, then traveled to the other city, Braterton to

501
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: kill Scott. And she has been charged with second degree

502
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: murder with the firearm in Scott's death and hasn't yet

503
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: been charged in Fletcher's.

504
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: Interesting, so Tampa hasn't charged him yet, which I charged her? Yeah,

505
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: I wonder why. So they must be still building under

506
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: maybe she didn't leave shellcasings at the rest at the

507
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: porch or even you know, there was a witness in

508
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: the David the Date murder of David Scott, but not.

509
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: The other husband.

510
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: Sorry, no, no, that's it. Yeah, you're right.

511
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 5: There's probably nothing that Matt links her directly to Timoy

512
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 5: other than her saying which one.

513
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 4: So that's that's interesting.

514
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: Well, well, thank you, Courtney, it's so so very interesting.

515
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: Later in the show, we're going to do a deep

516
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: dive into the West Memphis three. We've got trial updates

517
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: in the Brandon Banfield off Hair murder trial. And guess

518
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: what Tah has planning his own deep dive And you

519
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: are never going to guess the topic. But for now,

520
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: you know how much we love getting the talk backs,

521
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: and of course the live calls, but we also love

522
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 3: your d ms. And here's a few that caught our attention. Body,

523
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: what do you have?

524
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: So the first one comes from Deanna and it says,

525
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: listening to the California party mom, and we had an

526
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: even worse one here in Georgia. She actually lives a

527
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: few doors down from where I did in my old neighborhood.

528
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: Itick.

529
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: Indeed, Deanna, I like your name, by the way, you

530
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: never it's hard to you never really kind of run

531
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: into a lot of deannas. So Hello Deanna. So yeah,

532
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: I know about this case. This thise the one in Georgia,

533
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: and I you know, listen, they're both terrible, but I

534
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: think the California party mom is a little bit worse

535
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: than here's why. So the one out of Georgia, I

536
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: think it's Evans, Georgia, and it's if you're talking about

537
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: the same case that I'm thinking of. It's Rachel Lenhart

538
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: and she was from Evans, Georgia. She was sentenced in

539
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen after police investigated a single party that she

540
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: had in you know, she described her AA sponsor that

541
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: involved her sixteen year old daughter. In her daughter's friend friends,

542
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: she had a party. This is what happened.

543
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: She had a party.

544
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: She went to her sponsor and like told the sponsor

545
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: about this party, and the sponsor went to the police.

546
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: Oh so according to.

547
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's not like you know, lawyers, like a priest

548
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: or a lawyer. So there were just there were teenagers

549
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: drinking alcohol and they were smoking some pot. There was

550
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: a game of naked twister, and the mom, Rachel, did

551
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: have sex with a boy, but he's eighteen years old.

552
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: She was sentenced to six years of probation and I

553
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: think a six hundred dollar fine and she has to

554
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: go through drug and alcohol counseling. And the only reason

555
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: I'm saying the California party mom is worse is it

556
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: was a sustained pattern of behavior where this mom, you know,

557
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: she was involved in not only one night of ruckus,

558
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: she was involved over stained, over many many teenagers. She

559
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: was you know, she had her little fingers and everybody's

560
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: life too.

561
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: I remember she was like orchestrating things, and if I'm

562
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: remembering correctly, she had sort of rooms that were almost

563
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 3: designated makeout room.

564
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: Pushed the teenagers into those rooms, and yeah, it was that.

565
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: And that's listen, they're both egregious, like for sure, but

566
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: in one, you know, she just kind of supplied alcohol

567
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: and you know, some marijuana, did some teenagers and had

568
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: sex with an eight year old boy, which is again

569
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: it right, but legal, legal and technically illegal.

570
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 3: Now.

571
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: I don't remember all the details about the naked twister

572
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: that the lady in Georgia did, but I don't think

573
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 2: she was involved. I think she just kind of let.

574
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 5: It happen, you know, like, yeah, I think I read

575
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 5: a little bit about it. Just sounds like there were

576
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 5: rounds of naked twister. It doesn't say you whether or

577
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 5: not she was participating, but.

578
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: Again, they're both agregious. But I just think the party

579
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: mom was so manipulative, yeah, and basically forcing sexual assault

580
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: on people, right, that's right, Yeah, she was. She was

581
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: kind of setting people up with one another. She would

582
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: throw naked teenagers into rooms together, and like one girl

583
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: almost drowned in the hot tub.

584
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 4: Oh that's right. Yeah, there were injuries involved with that.

585
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: One were injuries involved, Okay. She was like harassing the

586
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: kids on social media and snapchat and talking to them

587
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: about their social life and things that she didn't like

588
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: about what they were doing and what I don't know,

589
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: I just think that the California Party Mom was just

590
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: a little bit more insane.

591
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the California Party Mom reminds me a little

592
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: bit of that documentary that obviously has stuck with me.

593
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 3: Wrong Number. I believe it was the Nomber Number about

594
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 3: that mother who was manipulating and ruining her daughter and

595
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 3: her daughter's boyfriends lives. Yeah, like mythology involved there, but

596
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:13,959
Speaker 3: I don't wonder.

597
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like mothers who are like weird, I don't weird, weird,

598
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 2: but I know it's not where they were. I'm weird,

599
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: but right word, Okay.

600
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is another level.

601
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 5: It's it's almost like to me, it felt feels almost

602
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 5: like they haven't grown up. There's still like yeah lessons

603
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 5: and they're not thinking the way an adult should.

604
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: There is so yeah, I think one of you. I

605
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: think it kind of compared him to the mother in

606
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: that movie The Burn Book, the I love this movie

607
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: Mean Girls.

608
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 4: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah, the cool mom, like.

609
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: Cool cool mom, like she wasn't cool in high school

610
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: or weren't the cheerleader she wanted to be whatever, And

611
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: it is kind of living that those years again, Like

612
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: I don't know which is so I.

613
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 3: Gotta say so strange to me, or even when one

614
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: of you said, you know, she wasn't orchestrated or involved

615
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: with the naked twister. But it's your house. You draw

616
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 3: the line. Like you know, I I am friendly with

617
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 3: my kids friends. I am also the boss of everything

618
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: that happens in my house. Right, there's no confusion, right, Well, she.

619
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: Wasn't the in Georgia, the Evans Georgia mom, the Rachel Lenhart.

620
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: She wasn't charged with any sexual crimes.

621
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 3: Whi's interesting. You know having sex with an eighteen year

622
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: old is legal.

623
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean it's I mean, like the twister situation.

624
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 5: She might not have been in the room, she might

625
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 5: have set it up. You guys go have fun and

626
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 5: close the door. Right, that's fair, but not that that

627
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 5: makes it any more acceptable. But well, that's that was

628
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 5: a good deal.

629
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: I like, yeah, no, thank you, Dana, we really appreciate it.

630
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: Keep them coming and listen. Just because I I think

631
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: the California party mom was just a little bit more

632
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: worse doesn't mean I don't agree with you. I think

633
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: this lady is a nut job.

634
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: So thank you for the DM exactly right, And if

635
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: you are just joining us this is True Crime tonight,

636
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 3: and we're taking a moment to go through a bunch

637
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 3: of your outreach and different dms that you've had so

638
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 3: and we'd love to hear more from you always, and

639
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 3: you can get us with us on the talkbacks as well.

640
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: Just go to the iHeartRadio app. You go to the

641
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 3: upper right hand corner. There's a little red microphone. You

642
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 3: click on it and leave your message. Boom, you're on

643
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: the show. So I had another DM that caught my eye,

644
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 3: and this is from Jennifer regarding the Long Island serial Killer. Hey,

645
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: y'all listening to the episode about the twist and the

646
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 3: Long Island serial Killer, and I thought it was really

647
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 3: a wonderful idea for the team to do a podcast

648
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: on the case. A while back, I'd listened to an

649
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: excellent podcast that centered itself in the police corruption that

650
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 3: went into the case. Highly recommend giving it a listen.

651
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: And then Jennifer very dear to my heart, goes on

652
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: to say that she struggles with technology and we'll try

653
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 3: to link in this message, but the podcast is with

654
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: Billy Jensen and Alexis link letter which I think body's

655
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: going to tell us. There's a little connection, and Jennifer,

656
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 3: you go on and say very kind things. Y'all are amazing.

657
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 3: I love how you're always looking to dive into things deeply,

658
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: and I really really appreciate how you make space. Oh

659
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: how do you make space for each other in your

660
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: different personalities. I imagine it can be hard with all

661
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: the other different voices, but each of you brings something

662
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 3: that connects with your audience, even Sam and Adam when

663
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: they jump in, thank you, Thank you, Jennifer, Sam and Adam.

664
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's a great podcast by the way, the

665
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: one that she's talking about with Billy Jensen and Alexis

666
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: link Letter. They both do a really great job. Billy.

667
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: I don't know Alexis, but Billy, he's dedicated a large portion,

668
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 2: well a good chunk of his life to the Long

669
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: Island serial Killer investigation and keeping it in the media

670
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: and whatnot. And he's actually the reason I'm here today,

671
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: not on Planet Earth, but on the radio with you guys.

672
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: How Yeah, isn't it just such a small world? Well,

673
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: this isn't about the DM, but I want to say

674
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: too though. It's a great podcast and you all should

675
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: really definitely check it out. But yeah, Billy Jensen.

676
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: He is.

677
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: He's a really he's a true crime writer. That's how

678
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: he started. And he also does a lot of podcasts

679
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: now and whatnot. But before podcasts were podcasts, right, he

680
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: wrote a lot of books. And he was also a

681
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 2: writer for a Rolling Stone magazine and he had heard

682
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: about back in I want to say twenty fifteen. He

683
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: had heard about the Luca magnota case and reached out

684
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: to us me actually, and asked if we could tell

685
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: our story to him, and I was like sure, and

686
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: so I did, and it was like, you know, for

687
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: that year, it was like the most read article on

688
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 2: their website.

689
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: Wow.

690
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: So through producers and whatnot, somebody reached out to me

691
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: and they were like, do mine if we try to

692
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: sell this story or whatnot at south By Southwest And

693
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: I was like, well, it's not my story. I mean, yeah, whatever,

694
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: you know. I didn't think anything of it. And then

695
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: like three years later I got a phone call from

696
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: Netflix They got the story. Oh yeah, So I mean

697
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: had that had I not goten know, had Billy not

698
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: shown an interest nobody, you know what I mean, like

699
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 2: it would have just kind of anyway.

700
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 4: Wow, that's was so fascinating.

701
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 2: He was a crime con you know all the time.

702
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: So I got hooked up with them there and whatnot.

703
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: But he's a he's a really good true crime writer.

704
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: And he worked with Michelle McNamara as well on the

705
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 2: Golden State Killer.

706
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 3: Amazing, and he'll be gone in the night is if

707
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 3: you're going to watch the doc on that, which.

708
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: Oh he's in that too. He's in that document document. Yeah,

709
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: he's in there.

710
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 4: Yep.

711
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: She finished her look for her.

712
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: Wow, yep, because of course she passed in the middle

713
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 2: of it, and he finished for her.

714
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should have him on.

715
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 5: I was just thinking that the wheels were turning already.

716
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 5: I was like, this would be a phenomenal guest to.

717
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: Have Billy give me an email.

718
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 4: There you go.

719
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: That's amazing. And then, by the way, Jennifer the doing

720
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 3: a podcast on the Long Island serial Killer. Stephanie and

721
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 3: I and you know, just Katie in general has I mean,

722
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 3: the case has been such an interest for years, and

723
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: I know we've spoken before about there was one uh

724
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: we thought we were told from really really really good

725
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 3: sourcing that we could not triple legally ve something totally different,

726
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 3: and so we were so glad that we withheld what

727
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: we knew, but we've kind of dipped in and out

728
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: of it, and it's it's not out of the realm

729
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: of possibility, I.

730
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: Suggested on.

731
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's it would be such a it

732
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 5: feels so fitting and so perfect. I can't think of

733
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 5: better people from that region.

734
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: And we know you guys are from that region, right,

735
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 2: And listen, serial killers are rare. Yeah, I mean I'm

736
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: not I'm not saying like I wish there were more,

737
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: you know, that's not at all what I'm saying. But

738
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: they're so rare. I feel like it's a missed not

739
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: opportunity to talk about it, but it's a misst it's

740
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: a missed opportunity to talk.

741
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

742
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also you know, you want to make sure

743
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: you have something to say, particularly when something has been

744
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: widely covered.

745
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: Right, Well, it's right, and I think that you know

746
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 2: that Billy and alexis their their uniqueness comes from you know,

747
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: they're they're also local to the area. And they talk

748
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: about the police corruption that happened along the way, which

749
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: is a really big story that links to the Long

750
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: Island serial killer, but it's a separate story in and

751
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: of itself. Right, Another really good angle for all this

752
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: are those moms that fought so are to get their daughters,

753
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: you know, the justice that they very rightly deserved because

754
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: they weren't really getting any because they were you know,

755
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: prostitutes or call you know, women on call, you know, right,

756
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: So I really we think that it would be a

757
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: unique opportunity to maybe take that angle.

758
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 5: But absolutely I think so I'm with you and that,

759
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 5: and I personally, I don't think we can have enough

760
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 5: stories that shed the light on sex workers and violence

761
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 5: that happens to them. I mean before this, working on

762
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 5: this show, I didn't realize the extent of it, and

763
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 5: so I think maybe there are other people out there

764
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 5: who aren't aware.

765
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: So there's there's stuff about the Green River killer Gary Ridgeway,

766
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: because he killed.

767
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 3: A bunch of prosecutes.

768
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: Yes, and he did that nobody really cared about, no,

769
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: and it.

770
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 3: Was amazing without the push of you know, in the

771
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: in the Long Island case of the mothers of the victims. Yeah,

772
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: there's justice often cannot be found if there's not some

773
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 3: attention or some friction or something driving a case forward, right,

774
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: And those Tom's.

775
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: Never gave up. I mean, there's documentaries about it, though.

776
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: I mean, and the documentaries are very very well done.

777
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: But listen up a pod. Some people, you know, they

778
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: can't watch documentaries, but they can listen to a podcast

779
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: right at work with gout their headphones in.

780
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 4: That's what I do.

781
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: You know, I got to have like external noise. Really, yeah, dude,

782
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: I cannot work in silence, so.

783
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 4: You have something playing as you're working. Oh see.

784
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 5: And I've become a little bit more like I get

785
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 5: so focused on I mean, I can do a little simple,

786
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 5: mindless task, but then I start to get so caught

787
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 5: up in the podcast that I'm listening to.

788
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: That like I And here's what I do. I remember

789
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: just a little bit, a little bit about a lot

790
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: of things.

791
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 4: I like that a lot. Okay, that's a that's a

792
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 4: great tip to know.

793
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: Right on, well listen. Coming up at the top of

794
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 3: the hour, Brendan Banfield's fate is now in the jury's hand.

795
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: He's accused of plotting his wife's murder with their affair

796
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 3: and don't forget you can always share your thoughts with us,

797
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: give us a DM keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

798
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

799
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm body Movin and I'm

800
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 2: here with producers Courtney Armstrong and Taha House. Don't forget

801
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: if you miss any part of Tonight's show, you can

802
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 2: always catch us on the podcast. We also would love

803
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: to hear from you, so give us a call at

804
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: eighty to eight thirty one Crime or hit us up

805
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: on our social media's at true Crime Tonight's Show on

806
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram, and if you just go on Facebook

807
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: and do a little search for True Crime Tonight, you

808
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: can get us there too. We love it when you

809
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: slide into our dms. Later in the show, we're going

810
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: to be doing a deep dive into one of the hosts.

811
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: Can you guests which one. We're going to be continuing

812
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: to track the Alexander Brothers trial. There's no major update

813
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: right now and less info because it's federal court and

814
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: it's not televised. And we're also going to be keeping

815
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: the Paul Knio case on our raidar the one the

816
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 2: New Jersey mansion murder where he killed god, he killed

817
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: his brother, his brother's wife and their two children, so

818
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: we're going to be keeping an eye on that. Allegedly,

819
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 2: we have a big update in the pair case.

820
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 4: What is going on?

821
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: Buckle up? Okay. Jury deliberations have indeed begun in the

822
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: trial for Brendan Banfield. So he's the guy. He's accused

823
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 3: of killing his wife, Christine Banfield, as well as the

824
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 3: stranger Joseph Ryan, in his home, and the prosecutors alleged

825
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 3: that the murders were the result of a calculated plot

826
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 3: so Banfield could ultimately romantically be with the family's au pair,

827
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 3: Juliana Parris Margalaise. Banfield roundly denies all these allegations. He

828
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: claims he arrived too late, tragically to save his wife

829
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: who was being attacked by Joseph Ryan, who again was

830
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 3: a victim and lost his life in this on this day.

831
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 3: And the trial concluded with Banfield's own testimony detailing his

832
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 3: side of events, and it was a direct rebuttal to

833
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: the testimony of the pair. I keep in mind she

834
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: received a plea deal for manslaughter, which has me enraged.

835
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 4: Right, it's insane.

836
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 3: If everything she's saying is true.

837
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: It's this is one of the most diabolical murder plots

838
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: I think I've ever heard. Really, yes, if what the

839
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 2: pair says is true, in that they set up this

840
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: set life profile to lure someone from that site to

841
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: the house. You no, make it look like, you know,

842
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 2: they told him to bring a knife and you know,

843
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: some rope and it really, you know, did make it

844
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: look like somebody was there to rape and you know,

845
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: break in and rape someone.

846
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: You know, somebody, of course is Joseph Ryan from this

847
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: fetish life that he thought he and this poor guy

848
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: right essentially coming to me.

849
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just diabolical, all the detail that went

850
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: into this elaborate plan to make it look like Christine

851
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: the victim, the wife of Brendan Banfield, you know, Loure,

852
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: you know, wanted some sort of consensual sex with this guy.

853
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 5: Really just it's no, it's hearing you say it's the

854
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 5: most diabolical. Says a lot because I know you follow

855
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 5: many cases, and I did think it's completely insane and wild.

856
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 5: So and I missed a lot of what happened the

857
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 5: past couple of days. So I'm going to turn to

858
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 5: both of you to fill me in all the juices

859
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 5: that happened. So I'm sitting back with my popcorn.

860
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 4: I'm ready.

861
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's start with Thursday. So Thursday there was court.

862
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 2: Let's start with Thursday.

863
00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 3: Great, Okay, So Thursday, Banfield returned to testify in his

864
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: own defense, and he was really going through the TikTok

865
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 3: of the day of the murders. And so what he

866
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: said was he left for work, he went to McDonald's,

867
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 3: he got a call from the au pair that there

868
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 3: was quote someone in the house and when he then

869
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 3: got home, what Bamfield describes on the stand was that

870
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 3: initially he heard what he thought was sexual activity in

871
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 3: the home. That then escalated and quote changed and at

872
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 3: that point realized that his wife Christine might be in danger.

873
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: And then Banfield, you know, the hero husband, as he's

874
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: painting himself to be that. That's when he intervened. He

875
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: had a gun in his hand and he when he

876
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 3: entered the room, he claims he saw the now deceased

877
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 3: Joseph Ryan kneeling over his naked wife on the bedroom floor.

878
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 3: And again a hero he's presenting himself. He says that

879
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 3: he warned Joseph Ryan and shouted police while holding his

880
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 3: gun and said that Ryan, Joseph Ryan, had a knife.

881
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, one direct quote was Ryan said that she,

882
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 3: meaning his wife, Ryan said that she was his and

883
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 3: that she gave herself to me, and Christine kind of

884
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: yelled moaned, Oh god, that.

885
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: Is so contrived. I'm sorry.

886
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 4: I don't buy it, not for a second, not at all.

887
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: This is so contrived. He gave herself to me, give

888
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: me a break.

889
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: Please, absolutely, and and that was the moment, according to Banfield,

890
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 3: that he shot Ryan and claimed he was unaware of

891
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 3: where he had shot Ryan until the discovery, which indeed

892
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: was in the head.

893
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 5: So he's I mean, from this testimony, he's still saying

894
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 5: he had nothing to do with it, or he's pretending.

895
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 2: He's he's pretending that this Joseph Ryan, you know, victim,

896
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: broke into the house for real, okay, and that he

897
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: killed Joseph Well, shot Joseph Ryan in basic self defense,

898
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: trying to save his wife. That's what he's saying. In

899
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: that Joseph Ryan was you know, kneeled over his naked

900
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: wife on the bedroom floor, and that she or he

901
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: Joseph Ryan, said that she was his and that she

902
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 2: gave herself to me, And then you know, the wife

903
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 2: kind of yelled and moaned. It's just so contrived.

904
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 5: To me, okay, it sounds like, all right, well, I'm

905
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 5: going to keep going along with whatever else you got

906
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 5: to say, because so far he's still saying this was

907
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 5: self defense.

908
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 3: Basically he was saying it was self defense. He was

909
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 3: caught off guard. But he's also what this does is

910
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 3: it further buttresses the defense. Is I was going to say,

911
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 3: story their presentation, that what they're trying to poke holes

912
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 3: in is the fact of the communications on fet life

913
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 3: right instead of being between the defendant Brendan Banfield and

914
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 3: Joseph Ryan, that indeed these communications were with his wife

915
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 3: Christine and Joseph Ryan, and that he walked.

916
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: In on this, on this this tryst that they had

917
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: basically set up right exactly.

918
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 4: Right, Okay, okay, got it, got it, okay, right.

919
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 2: So he said that in discovery when he got you know,

920
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: the autopsy report and whatnot they discovered or he realized

921
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: he had shot him in the head, he testified that

922
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: the wife, Christine, was bleeding and that he was tending

923
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: to her after he shot Ryan. He said, Christine told

924
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: me that she was bleeding out and that she was

925
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: sorry and that she loved me. This infuriates me.

926
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

927
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: And I'm saying this because I don't believe him. Right,

928
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: he's making his wife look like a villain. I'm sorry

929
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 2: because basically in his testimony, he's saying that his wife

930
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 2: was cheating on him with Joseph Ryan and for him

931
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: to do that after he did this whole elaborate plan, which,

932
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 2: by the way, I don't think the pair is smart

933
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: enough to you know, cocked up.

934
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,479
Speaker 4: On her own, right, I don't think. Yeah.

935
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 2: It just infuriates me because she's already a victim. You've

936
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 2: killed the mother of your children, and now you're making

937
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: it look like she was apologetic to you on her deathbed.

938
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 5: Are they still staying by, Like are they trying to

939
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 5: say that the account that what was the the but like,

940
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 5: are they still trying to say that she did that

941
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 5: on her own or yes, yes, yes, So now they're

942
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 5: trying to make it all look like this is all okay,

943
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 5: gotta go.

944
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 3: That's what the defense is, that that's the crux of their.

945
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 4: Case, whole thing. Yeah, okay, all right, all right now

946
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 4: now I got it, Okay, gotcha.

947
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 2: So then he says, this is where I kind of like, okay,

948
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 2: this is when the a pair, According to him his testimony,

949
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 2: Juliana entered the room, grabbed a gun from the safe,

950
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:16,720
Speaker 2: returned and shot Joseph Ryan, who was still alive, still alive,

951
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 2: and he went on to say that she knew the

952
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: code to the safe because she had witnessed him, you know,

953
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 2: type it in before. Like she wasn't an a pair

954
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 2: that long. How would she witness you going into your

955
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: gun safe so many times, by the way that she would.

956
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 5: Remember it, right, And you're gonna let her stand there

957
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 5: right over your shoulder as you're doing that.

958
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 2: And I listen these defense looks. I'm not a lawyer. Okay,

959
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 2: I'm not a lawyer. These defense attorneys. I cannot believe

960
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: they're allowing him to say these kinds of things on

961
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 2: the stand. It's crazy to me.

962
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. It's disgusting. And oh man, So

963
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 3: according to the nanny's testimony, so every everything that Banfield

964
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 3: is saying is an opposition really to what Margo Lay said.

965
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: And she said that she saw Banfield actually take handfields up,

966
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 3: take handfuls of his wife's blood and drip it onto

967
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 3: Joseph Ryan in an effort to further frame this innocent

968
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 3: man who is now dead.

969
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: So this is what she's saying, you guys, a man,

970
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, his wife, according to the up Air

971
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: had been stabbed by Brendan Banfield, the man on trial, right,

972
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: because it needs to look like you know, it was

973
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 2: the knife.

974
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 4: True.

975
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: He scoops up his own wife's blood and pours it

976
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 2: on the second victim, Joseph Ryan, to make it I mean,

977
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: this is diabolicle.

978
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 4: Wow wow, Okay, okay.

979
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 3: And then so the morning again, Banfield's given the TikTok

980
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: of the day. The morning of the killings, Banfield said

981
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 3: he had a very important work meeting and it was

982
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 3: with his manager, and in the testimony he said it

983
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:19,919
Speaker 3: could have led to a promotion. Well, Banfield's then acting supervisor,

984
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: who was an IRA special agent named Thomas Patrick Smith.

985
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 3: He testified on Thursday. Guess what, I had no plans

986
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 3: to meet with Banfield the morning of the killings, but

987
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 3: no one was considering Banfield to, you know, have some

988
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 3: important meeting.

989
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 2: I missed this part of the testimony, and I wonder

990
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 2: why it was so important that he would lie about this, right, Like,

991
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: why on the morning of the murders does he need

992
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: to be out of the house at a meeting with

993
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: this superagent from the IRS that he mightd this promotion.

994
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 3: Well, I think you just had to be out of

995
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 3: out of the house before victim Joseph Ryan came so

996
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 3: that Banfield could then get a call from the nanny

997
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 3: to come in. All that makes sense of altercation that

998
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: has set up.

999
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, thank you, yes, okay, okay.

1000
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 4: Figuring it all out together.

1001
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 3: I love it, thinks a villain. And then okay, so

1002
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 3: Banfield goes on because I want to get to Friday's

1003
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 3: testimony too. But also Banfield went on and said he

1004
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: loves his wife and his daughter, but also I love

1005
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 3: the affair. And then the working age love letter discussing

1006
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 3: baby names for their future children.

1007
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 2: I know, and.

1008
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 3: It really is. And then okay, this last thing, which

1009
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: if he is lying, uh, made bad things happen to

1010
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 3: his soul? Maybe I think happened to a soul. So

1011
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 3: Banfield claims that the victim his wife, Christine, who at

1012
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 3: times worked as a sexual assault nurse examiner, which the

1013
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 3: kind of kindness you need to show of. Yeah. So

1014
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 3: he said that Christine had expressed previous interest in violence

1015
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 3: sex and further said that she did many examinations on

1016
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 3: men and women people who are raped, some pretty graphic things,

1017
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 3: and she used to bring some of her documents home,

1018
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 3: which made Banfield aware and said, oh, she seemed to

1019
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,959
Speaker 3: look at them pretty often. But Bamfield said, I wasn't

1020
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 3: interested in ever harming her any sexual violence. So again,

1021
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 3: if he's lying, which I do believe he is, I

1022
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 3: wish him everything bad that comes to him.

1023
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 5: I agree this horrible character assassination of his poor wife

1024
01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 5: at this point in her life, you know, ended.

1025
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 4: Life right in the past. Right.

1026
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: So Friday was for closing arguments, right, and the prosecution

1027
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 2: went so they framed the killings as deliberate and premeditated,

1028
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 2: and they highlighted a lot of the physical forensics, the

1029
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 2: digital evidence and arguing that it aligned with the all

1030
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 2: pairs testimony and contradicted Brendan's testimony, which I agree with it.

1031
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: You know, it emphasized the implausibility of the defense narrative,

1032
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: including lack of evidence beyond Banfield's testimony of Christine's interest

1033
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: in this fetish activities that she had picked up on

1034
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: while she was you know, being a sexual abuse nurse ridiculous.

1035
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 2: And they pointed to a lot of the behavioral choices,

1036
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: you know, leaving a child in the home, timing of

1037
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: the actions, handling of the weapons as evidence of planning,

1038
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 2: it urged. They urged jurors to consider credibility, motive, and

1039
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: the totality of the evidence rather than isolated testimony. And

1040
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: the defense had a lot to say too. They argued

1041
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: the investigation was biased and built around a predetermined narrative

1042
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 2: that the op pair was painting. They said that the

1043
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: AP pair was bought and paid for, and her motivation

1044
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 2: and payment was freedom and potential media deals. They questioned

1045
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 2: the digital and blood evidence, proposed alternative explanations, and astengers

1046
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 2: to focus on reasonable doubt rather than certainty. We're going

1047
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 2: to continue to follow this when we get a verdict.

1048
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: Can't wait for that and listen. Coming up next we

1049
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 2: have we're going to be doing a deep dive into

1050
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 2: West Memphis three, a haunting case of three teens convicted

1051
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 2: of killing three boys during they satanic panic. Keep it

1052
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: right here, True Crime Tonight.

1053
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1054
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 3: true crime all the time. Courtney Armstrong, I'm here with

1055
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 3: crime Analyst, Body move in and Stephanie Leidecker is out

1056
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 3: tending to all manner of life and career activities. You

1057
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 3: will get the full run down. There's a lot In

1058
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 3: the meantime, don't forget. If you've missed any part of

1059
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 3: the show, don't sweat it. Just catch us on the podcast.

1060
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 3: And we love hearing from you. So there's many ways

1061
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 3: to do it. One of them is on our socials

1062
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 3: at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, and

1063
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. We read everything. Later in

1064
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: the show, Taha is taking the reins and doing his

1065
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 3: own deep deep dives, so stick around for that. But

1066
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 3: now we're going to dig into one of the most

1067
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 3: controversial cases in American history. I don't say that lightly.

1068
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 3: It's the West Memphis three. Three little boys were murdered,

1069
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 3: three teenagers were convicted, and there was no evidence tying

1070
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 3: them to the crime. Body. I know you know this crime,

1071
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 3: this crime and case inside and out. So what does

1072
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 3: everyone need to know?

1073
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: Well, a lot, but you know, we only have a

1074
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 2: few minutes, right, So the West Memphis three case. It

1075
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: centers around the nineteen ninety three murders of three eight

1076
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 2: year olds Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Christopher Buyers in

1077
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 2: West Memphis, Arkansas. Local teens Damian Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and

1078
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 2: Jesse mimss Kelly Junior were convicted in nineteen ninety four

1079
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 2: of these of these murders amid an intense satanic panic hysteria,

1080
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 2: despite no physical evidence linking them to the crime.

1081
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 5: Oh okay, so I termed satanic panic. I've heard that before. Yeah, yeah,

1082
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 5: you might have to fill me in on that one.

1083
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: I will, I'll get into it. So the prosecution relied

1084
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 2: heavily on a coerced and inconsistent confession from Jesse mus Kelly.

1085
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: I promised to get into the satanic panic, but give

1086
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 2: me just a minute. So there was a lot of

1087
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: dubious forensic testimony and speculative occult theories. Later, DNA testing

1088
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: excluded the three and undermined all the key evidence that

1089
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 2: was presented at trial. After spending eighteen years in prison,

1090
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 2: Damien Eccles, who was on death row, he was the

1091
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 2: only one on death row, the men were released in

1092
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 2: twenty eleven under a really controversial Alford plea. They maintained

1093
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 2: their innocence while allowing the state to avoid retrying the case,

1094
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 2: leaving the murders officially unsolved and the case lasting symbol

1095
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,479
Speaker 2: of wrongful convictions. You know, this case was driven by fear,

1096
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 2: flawed policing and junk science. So yeah, the crime happened

1097
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 2: at three eight year old boys, Stevie Branch, Michael Moore,

1098
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 2: and Christopher Byers. They were brutally murdered and found kind

1099
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 2: of like hogtime, and they were found in a drainage

1100
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: dipp ditch in West Memphis, Arkansas, and it shocked the

1101
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: community and triggered intense pressure for quick arrests.

1102
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 3: Right.

1103
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 2: The teenagers that became suspects very quickly were Damien Eccles,

1104
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 2: Jason Baldwin, and Jesse mus Kelly. They were targeted largely

1105
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 2: because they listened to heavy metal, they wore all black,

1106
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 2: they didn't fit in, right. They were linked without evidence

1107
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 2: to occult rumors because you know, the boys, the victims

1108
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 2: in this case, we were found kind of mutilated. Okay

1109
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: a little bit, so let me just explain how you

1110
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 2: would ask what satanic panic was? All right, Well, satanic panic.

1111
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: You know, this investigation unfolded during the height of it,

1112
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: all right, remember the timeframe that we're in, the the

1113
01:06:55,480 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 2: early nineties, Heraldo Sally j You know you're that you

1114
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 2: worked with Sally What was it, Sally Sally j Raphael

1115
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: Jesse Sally Jesse donue. We love culture at the time, right,

1116
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 2: And the Satanic panic literally just wasn't the background noise

1117
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 2: in the West Memphis three case. It was literally the

1118
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 2: operating system that shaped how these murders were interpretated, investigated,

1119
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 2: and sold to a jury. And you know, a satanic panic.

1120
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,439
Speaker 2: From the early eighties throughout the mid nineties, large parts

1121
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 2: of the US were gripped by this moral panic that

1122
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 2: believed secret satanic cults were abusing and murdering children. I

1123
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: don't know if you guys remember like Al Gore and

1124
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 2: Tipper Gore.

1125
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 3: I remember it very clearly. And then that was also

1126
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 3: the time, I believe, when records began to have the

1127
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 3: explicit labels on them, which made everybody want to buy them.

1128
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 3: It was a congressional issue. Yeah, it was a congressional issue.

1129
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. I mean, this was a big deal.

1130
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 2: And you know, it was also fueled by tabloid media

1131
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: talk shows that we just spoke about these evangelis. How

1132
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 2: do you say it, politics, evangelists, Thank you the sermons

1133
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 2: and experts, Right, the panic treated rumor and symbolism not

1134
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 2: as just rumors and symbolism, but as literal evidence, right,

1135
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 2: law enforcement even got training, often very improperly, to look

1136
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,759
Speaker 2: for occult indicators instead of actual evidence.

1137
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 3: Right.

1138
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 2: So during this testimony to a man testified. His name

1139
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 2: was Dale Griffins, and he claimed to be an expert

1140
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 2: in occult killings, and he was accepted as an expert

1141
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 2: to testify in his case. And he presented himself as

1142
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,680
Speaker 2: somebody with a PhD and occult studies, a former law

1143
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 2: enforcement officer with specialized knowledge of ritual killings. You know,

1144
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 2: to this nineteen ninety four Arkansas jury, he seemed quite

1145
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 2: not knowledgeable and kind of in a position of authority

1146
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: to speak on it.

1147
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 3: Right.

1148
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 2: No, his PhD came from Male Order diploma mall. Oh no, okay,

1149
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,639
Speaker 2: now he's one of the main reasons these kids got convicted.

1150
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 2: By the way, his PhDa came from a male Order diploma, mall.

1151
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 2: And he was he was not an accredit university. There's

1152
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 2: no recognized academia called occult crime studies. As he described it,

1153
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 2: he has no formal training in any anthropology, any religious studies, psychology,

1154
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 2: or forensic science. His expertise was largely based on self study,

1155
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 2: rumor and panic fed lore at the time. So yeah,

1156
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 2: so he testified that these murders were consistent with Satanic

1157
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 2: ritual sacrifice, and that some kind of a cult ceremony

1158
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,600
Speaker 2: was tied to the date of the murders, and that

1159
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,719
Speaker 2: there were symbolic elements reflected in the crime scene which

1160
01:09:58,280 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 2: were not true at all.

1161
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 3: So body did this quote, experts, credentials? Did the fact

1162
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 3: that he was faking it all get found out after

1163
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 3: the trial or during after? What the heck was the

1164
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 3: matter with the defense? I don't know for not you know,

1165
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 3: for not cross examining.

1166
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 2: Well, they did cross examine, and at the time though

1167
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,719
Speaker 2: he was still very you know, a man of authority

1168
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 2: according to the jury, he wasn't in peach Forth testimony.

1169
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 2: He got away with it. And because they also had

1170
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,440
Speaker 2: a confession, you guys, okay, So there was this confession

1171
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 2: from Jesse miss Kelly okay, and Jason miss Kelly. You know,

1172
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 2: he was questioned, he was I think he was seventeenth time.

1173
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 2: He was questioned for hours, twelve hours at a time,

1174
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 2: with long stretches that were not even recorded. Only about

1175
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 2: forty or forty five minutes were actually taped, which means

1176
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 2: we don't see how you know, it led up to

1177
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 2: those those answers, right, Okay, had an IQ in the

1178
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: low seventies, which you know makes some highly suggestible. He

1179
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 2: had a very limited understanding of legal consequences. You know,

1180
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: this is classic for false confessions, right, This is the

1181
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 2: classic setup. And the most egregious part of this confession,

1182
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 2: you guys, was the detectives. They fed him facts. Even

1183
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 2: on the recordings that we'd hear, you can hear the

1184
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 2: detectives correcting him, like he would say I came home

1185
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,799
Speaker 2: at one, and they were like, don't you mean three o'clock?

1186
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 2: And then he was like, oh yeah, three o'clock. No, yes, yes.

1187
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 2: They were feeding him facts. They were correcting him when

1188
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 2: he was wrong, and they pushed him toward answers that

1189
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 2: they believed to fit the story and the crime scene.

1190
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 2: He had the wrong time of day. He said the

1191
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 2: murders happened around noon. The boys were last seen after

1192
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 2: school in the early evening, so that was completely wrong.

1193
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 2: He had the wrong day. He struggled to place himself

1194
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 2: at basic events and sequence and mixed up all these timelines.

1195
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 2: He had the wrong number of attackers. He gave many

1196
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 2: different accounts of who was present when it happened, and

1197
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 2: what each person did the wrong methods. There were key

1198
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 2: aspects of how the boys were restrained and killed that

1199
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:18,839
Speaker 2: were not inconsistent, that were totally inconsistent with the autopsy findings,

1200
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 2: and he changed his answers after the correction. Like I

1201
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 2: just said, the police would say, don't you mean three

1202
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 2: o'clock and he would be like, oh yeah, yeah, three o'clock.

1203
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 2: Where he would say I left, I didn't see what happened,

1204
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 2: and they were like, don't you really mean you saw

1205
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 2: what happened, and he'd be like, oh yeah, I saw everything,

1206
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 2: and he.

1207
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 5: Sounds like with his IQ he probably was very easily Okay.

1208
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 2: So you know, none of the DNA, no fingerprints, fibers,

1209
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 2: or any forensic evidence tied any of the three defendants

1210
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 2: the murders, which is an extraordinary gap for a triple homicide, right,

1211
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's that's hard for anybody. And there were

1212
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 2: a lot of junk science too. I told you the

1213
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 2: boys were mutilated a little bit, right, Well, there were

1214
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 2: bite marks too, and bitemark analysis you know, were presented

1215
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 2: at trial, and these methods We've covered this many times.

1216
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 2: Bite marks, those methods have since been discredited in modern

1217
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 2: French science, Right, So they wouldn't hold up today. Miss

1218
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,559
Speaker 2: Kelly received They were all found guilty and miss Kelley

1219
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:28,560
Speaker 2: received forty years. Baldwin he got life without parole, and

1220
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 2: Eccles was sentenced to death despite all the evidentary Weekly says,

1221
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 2: you have a death penalty.

1222
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:33,920
Speaker 4: This kid.

1223
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 2: Media Okay. So HBO came out with a documentary. It's

1224
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 2: three parts and it's called Paradise Lost. And the first

1225
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 2: part came out in the Earth very very soon after

1226
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 2: the conviction, and it brought national attention and exposing flaws

1227
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 2: in the case. I mean, this brought a lot of

1228
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 2: attention because this documentary was so good. It's in fact

1229
01:13:54,680 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 2: how I got involved in true crime. Oh yeah, I

1230
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,880
Speaker 2: mean we could talk about that but at another time.

1231
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, because I saw the documentary and I was like,

1232
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 2: this is crazy, this is I want to let me

1233
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 2: get put on trial.

1234
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 4: It was crazy.

1235
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's really goes down as one of the most

1236
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 3: egregious instances of just injustice and the justice system.

1237
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 4: Right and Courtney imagine you've seen that. Have you seen

1238
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 4: the documentary?

1239
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 3: Absolutely? And it was also a pivotal at a pivotal

1240
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 3: time in my life when I saw it, and it was.

1241
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 2: I think I was ninety six when it came out,

1242
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 2: ninety seven something like that. Yeah, yeah, and so there,

1243
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 2: and then then they did another one like ten years later,

1244
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 2: and then another one right before they got released. And

1245
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 2: then there's also another documentary called West of Memphis. Oh

1246
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:51,600
Speaker 2: I came out after those three just fantastic documentaries. I

1247
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,600
Speaker 2: definitely encourage everybody to read them or watch them. But

1248
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 2: since they were convicted, you know, evidence, you know, advances

1249
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,520
Speaker 2: in DNA are just always changing, right, and it excluded

1250
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:06,600
Speaker 2: all three of the men and pointed toward unknown contributors,

1251
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 2: including possible links to individuals that hadn't been investigated at

1252
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 2: the time. And you know, there was a lot of

1253
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,640
Speaker 2: pressure from the media and you know, lawyers, a lot

1254
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 2: of lawyers and scholars and forensics experts. John Douglas got

1255
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 2: involved in this. You know, he's one of the leading

1256
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 2: authorities at the FBI on criminality in general, and I

1257
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 2: mean he he got involved with this. And after the

1258
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, it's really controversial Alfred Plea in twenty eleven,

1259
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 2: all three were freed after eighteen years by entering this

1260
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 2: Alfred Plea. And then Alfred Plea maintains that yeah, I'm

1261
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 2: innocent but I acknowledge that the state has enough to

1262
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: convict me. So what this does is it's amount of

1263
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 2: prison saves Damien's life. Jason Baldwin did not want to

1264
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 2: to do this because he Yeah, he was like, listen,

1265
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,560
Speaker 2: I'm innocent. I didn't do this. I'm not going to

1266
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 2: say I did. He did it to save Damien's life.

1267
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 2: Damien was going to be put to death in Arkansas.

1268
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 4: Wow.

1269
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,679
Speaker 2: And the only way they could get out is by saying, yeah,

1270
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 2: we're innocent, but we recognize the state had enough to

1271
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 2: convict us.

1272
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 4: And all three of them have to be an agreement.

1273
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 2: Three of them had to agree. Yeah, and it's it's

1274
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 2: it's a remarkable moment in history, and they have it.

1275
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 2: They have it playing in the West of Memphis and

1276
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 2: in that documentary Fantastic, It's it's it's it's an incredible moment.

1277
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 4: That's something I jumped in.

1278
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 3: Did you have Oh, I was going to say the

1279
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 3: Alfred play it also. It was it seemed almost like

1280
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 3: a way to let the state, let the DA sort

1281
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 3: of save face more than anything else in the wess

1282
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 3: to do with the justice and the actualities of the case.

1283
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 2: That because now you know they're acknowledging in court that, yeah,

1284
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 2: the state had enough to convict me, so I have

1285
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 2: no recourse. I can't really sue, right, and the case

1286
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 2: is closed. It's it's so here's the thing. The real

1287
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 2: killers are never going to be tried because the state

1288
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 2: has to save face, just like Courtney said. Oh, because

1289
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 2: in the state's mind, they have their guys, right, So the.

1290
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 4: Real killers are somewhere walking the streets to this day. Correct,

1291
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

1292
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this this was a really big deal. And

1293
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 2: even do you guys remember the Dixie Chicks that I

1294
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 2: think they're now called the Chicks the chicks, you're correct,

1295
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 2: they got involved, and that's a story for another time

1296
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 2: because it's really interesting. But that's a whole another path,

1297
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:41,679
Speaker 2: but again also very very interesting. Yeah, so they're Damien

1298
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 2: is very active on social media and he's encouraging DNA

1299
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 2: testing and they just won't do it because according again

1300
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 2: according to them, they got the guys right, the state

1301
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 2: will not do it.

1302
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 5: Oh, I know, we were deep diving into this, but

1303
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 5: I feel like we have to go into the seat

1304
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 5: and more like, it feels like there's so much more

1305
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 5: to this game.

1306
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 2: There's a lot and again this is a summary. You

1307
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 2: have to do it in like fifteen minutes, but it's

1308
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:10,679
Speaker 2: so much that it's almost impossible to summer Summer.

1309
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 3: Well, you did a great job in that amount of time,

1310
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: and I hope people go and watch and read and

1311
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:20,000
Speaker 3: learn more about this. But stick around. We do have

1312
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 3: more to dig into. Tonight. We're dropping the case files

1313
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 3: and we have some unfiltered questions. Stick around True Crime Tonight.

1314
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1315
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 3: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney, I'm here with

1316
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:51,719
Speaker 3: Body U. Taha is going to be leading the charge

1317
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 3: in this segment, and listen. Before we do wrap up tonight,

1318
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 3: we're doing something a little bit different. We talk about

1319
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,759
Speaker 3: cases obviously all of the time, and they are important

1320
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 3: to follow, but sometimes it's interesting to get to know

1321
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 3: the people behind the microphone. So for this last part

1322
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 3: of the show, Taha had an idea to turn the

1323
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 3: spotlight on one of us, and I'm really grateful that

1324
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 3: tonight it is my buddy Body moving in the hot seat.

1325
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 3: Ya wait, Taha, go easy, honor.

1326
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 2: I will my idea.

1327
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 4: By the way, it was completely mine.

1328
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 5: I'll tell you that I was inspired by there's this

1329
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 5: sort of video package that Vogue magazine does where they

1330
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:38,880
Speaker 5: go to like a celebrities house and they ask them

1331
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 5: like twenty questions have you seen that?

1332
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 4: Like they go to the house.

1333
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 3: I love those.

1334
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 5: I love those same and I said, oh my god,

1335
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 5: we should do something like that. So body, you are

1336
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 5: my first Vogue celebrity magazine.

1337
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 3: Give you if you will.

1338
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 5: But these are the simple things, and I bet a

1339
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 5: lot of our listeners will be curious about this.

1340
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 3: So here we go.

1341
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 5: Here's my first question for you. And I think I

1342
01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 5: heard you touch on the answer to this in the

1343
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 5: previous segment, but correct me if I'm wrong. Now you've

1344
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:08,719
Speaker 5: become known for helping solve crimes online. What first pulled

1345
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 5: you into true crime in the first place?

1346
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:11,680
Speaker 6: Was it?

1347
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:20,679
Speaker 2: It was after right after the Paradise Lost documentary. Of course,

1348
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 2: the Internet was kind of new.

1349
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 3: So I.

1350
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:27,160
Speaker 2: Dialed up my modem and you know, went googled. Well,

1351
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 2: I thought it was Yahoo back then actually, or Geo

1352
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 2: cities or something, and I was looking for information about

1353
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 2: this because I thought it was like just egregious that,

1354
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 2: you know, Uh, these these teenagers had been convicted of

1355
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 2: this crime when the evidence was their only crime was

1356
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 2: wearing all black, right. I just thought that was crazy.

1357
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 2: And here I was, you know, wearing all black myself, right, like,

1358
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 2: oh my goodness. So I found a website I think

1359
01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 2: it was uh w M three, I think it was

1360
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 2: what it was called, and they had like this little

1361
01:20:57,439 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 2: mailing list thing that you could sign up for, and

1362
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, so I signed up, you know,

1363
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 2: for this mailing list. I think it was my Aol

1364
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:10,520
Speaker 2: account at the time, and basically I started getting emails

1365
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 2: many a day. Actually, this is before spam was really

1366
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 2: a big thing, and so when you got an email,

1367
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 2: you would read it right, and it was a discussion

1368
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:24,679
Speaker 2: list and instead of you know, like a message board,

1369
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:28,600
Speaker 2: it was emails and everybody would get copied on the

1370
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 2: email and you would all talk about the case. And

1371
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 2: the more I learned about, you know, the lack of

1372
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:37,600
Speaker 2: evidence that you know, they had, and and got to

1373
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 2: talk to some of the people, you know, and we

1374
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 2: would all get on like I r C. At the time,

1375
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:45,760
Speaker 2: it was Internet relay chat and it was like old

1376
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:49,040
Speaker 2: school like messages, you know, back and forth to an

1377
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,560
Speaker 2: I just really kind of understood at that moment. I

1378
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 2: had like this really big passion for injustice, I don't,

1379
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 2: you know, and that's one of the reasons I got involved,

1380
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 2: you know, against the you know, the murders against the kittens.

1381
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 2: Initially was I don't like bullies. I don't like people

1382
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:16,520
Speaker 2: taking advantage of you know, vulnerable people, children, elderly animals.

1383
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 2: You know, it just infuriates me and I and I

1384
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:23,680
Speaker 2: really felt Jesse, miss Kelly was vulnerable, and it just

1385
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 2: ignited something in me that I never felt. I'm literally

1386
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 2: never felt it before. And I was like, wow, I'm

1387
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,600
Speaker 2: this is something I'm interested in knowing more about. And

1388
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 2: then my mom was like massively into true crime and

1389
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:40,599
Speaker 2: so it just kind of like became part of our

1390
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 2: thing where we would watch like unsolved mysteries and try.

1391
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 3: To figure that out.

1392
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so it just became part of my life and

1393
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 2: here we are.

1394
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:50,320
Speaker 3: I love that.

1395
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 4: That's amazing.

1396
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,640
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it sounds like you always had a

1397
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:56,559
Speaker 5: you know, you stood up against the bullies.

1398
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 4: Was that something even from high school? Like even when

1399
01:22:59,520 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 4: you were younger?

1400
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 2: You always When I was younger, my brother he had

1401
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:07,600
Speaker 2: a fight at school, and I think he was like

1402
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,840
Speaker 2: in kindergarten, but his the person you got to fight

1403
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 2: with was in second grade. Well, let me tell you something.

1404
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:17,600
Speaker 2: When I learned about this, I because I was in

1405
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 2: third grade, right, I went and bullied that second grader.

1406
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:26,600
Speaker 2: I was no, sir, you know, I pullice. I just

1407
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 2: don't like it always been that way.

1408
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 4: I love that, well. I love that you're standing up

1409
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:34,800
Speaker 4: for others and continue to do so.

1410
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 5: It's funny because I would have thought, I love that

1411
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 5: it's the injustice that that stood out to you. There's

1412
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 5: a side of you that it's from just in our conversations.

1413
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 5: You're like a puzzle solver, so I it would have

1414
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 5: been the mystery.

1415
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 4: Of like, well, who did this?

1416
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 2: Certainly that is you know, one of the things that

1417
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 2: draws me to cases is the puzzle, you know, but

1418
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:00,080
Speaker 2: it's it's the injustice and not only listen, and I

1419
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 2: really want people to know too, it's not necessarily the injustice.

1420
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:08,320
Speaker 2: In the West Memphis three of the kids who went

1421
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:11,559
Speaker 2: to prison, it's the kids who die too. There's three,

1422
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 2: there's West Memphis three victims, and there's West Memphis three

1423
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 2: you know defendants, right, and then.

1424
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:23,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, there have never had true right justice. And because

1425
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 3: this ruling in this moment, never will.

1426
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 2: Never will right never will And you know you know,

1427
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 2: I talked a little bit about like the you know,

1428
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 2: these boys are mutilated a little bit. Well, you know,

1429
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:39,600
Speaker 2: forensic science has kind of moved along and you know,

1430
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:43,759
Speaker 2: they were in this discrete and it turns out snapping

1431
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,000
Speaker 2: turtles make those same mutilation marks. But at the time

1432
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 2: it was all attributed to all these weird kids, you know,

1433
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 2: they're probably devil worshipers and dah dah da da da.

1434
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,519
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, sir, no, you know what

1435
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,840
Speaker 2: I mean. It just really arranged me, just really enraged me.

1436
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, think.

1437
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,559
Speaker 5: What I like getting to know you even more and more?

1438
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 5: Can I can I ask you another one? Are you

1439
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 5: ready for the next question?

1440
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 3: I don't know what is it? All?

1441
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 4: Right?

1442
01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:12,560
Speaker 5: Here we go, Let's see this one. This is a

1443
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,920
Speaker 5: pretty straightforward. It's an easy one. What's one true crime

1444
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:20,960
Speaker 5: myth or TV probe? If that drives you absolutely nuts?

1445
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:25,840
Speaker 2: Hmmm, well that's interesting. One of the things that it

1446
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 2: drives me nuts is the emotional the how emotional people

1447
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 2: can be, especially when you're talking about a case. Right,

1448
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 2: I am much more unemotional than most I don't. Yeah,

1449
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 2: I know you're upset.

1450
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 3: I get it.

1451
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:49,719
Speaker 2: Like, for instance, the kittens, Right, Sure, I talk about

1452
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:52,960
Speaker 2: noise a lot. And I when you're when there's a

1453
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 2: case and it's a hot case and there's a lot

1454
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: of people discussing the case, everyone is always like, they

1455
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 2: better arrest so and so. Are they better arrest this

1456
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 2: person or that person with little to no evidence other

1457
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:10,080
Speaker 2: than their emotion, right, And I am more like, well,

1458
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 2: what evidence is there against this person? Or it's just

1459
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 2: how reactionary we are to our emotions that really drives

1460
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 2: me crazy. And true crime because oftentimes we're talking about

1461
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 2: horrendous crimes that have been you know, done against like

1462
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:27,880
Speaker 2: you know, people who literally don't deserve it, right, So

1463
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 2: it's an emotional thing by nature. I get it. I

1464
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 2: totally get it. But to me, it's just noise, it's

1465
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 2: just static. It's a distraction. It just drives me crazy.

1466
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:40,679
Speaker 2: And I think that would be the trope that drives

1467
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 2: me not the most nuts, Like I don't like it.

1468
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:46,880
Speaker 2: The biggest myth I think would be that we're all

1469
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:54,600
Speaker 2: like fascinated with serial killers and murders and oh yeah, no,

1470
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:59,120
Speaker 2: absolutely not, no, sir. I do think that they need

1471
01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 2: to be studied and whatnot for you know, maybe someday

1472
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 2: there can be some kind of predictaary, uh, you know,

1473
01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 2: algorithm that predicts this kind of behavior and can correct

1474
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 2: it before it happens. And you're not gonna get to

1475
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 2: that unless you study the past. Right, So I do

1476
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,320
Speaker 2: think that they require study and whatnot. But I don't

1477
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 2: want to marry any of them. Yeah, I can touch

1478
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 2: the imagination. I don't want them to be famous. I

1479
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 2: don't want them to receive any kind of grand recognition.

1480
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:33,839
Speaker 2: But I do think that they need to be studied anyway.

1481
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I get that. And Courtney jumping please, I.

1482
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 3: Love learning about you, just on a more detailed like.

1483
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 3: I love your questions and see hearing more what makes

1484
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 3: you tick? Body and listen if you're just joining us.

1485
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 3: This is true Crime tonight and TAH is doing a

1486
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 3: deep dive on none other, none other than body Move

1487
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 3: in TA What is up next?

1488
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 5: Okay, this one We've kind of touched on this one

1489
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:00,280
Speaker 5: a little, and I think there was a point where

1490
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,479
Speaker 5: Courtney and Steph were involved with this kind of questioning

1491
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,080
Speaker 5: as well, but questioning like, I'm an attorney here, but

1492
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:09,679
Speaker 5: when you look at a case, what's the very first

1493
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:10,640
Speaker 5: thing you focus on?

1494
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 4: Motive? Timeline, or behavior.

1495
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 2: M Well, all three are so important, right, But I

1496
01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:25,680
Speaker 2: think timeline is the I view timelines in anybody that's

1497
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 2: familiar with my spreadsheets, you'll know this. I view timelines

1498
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:34,080
Speaker 2: as like an investigative tool, and I think they're super

1499
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 2: important to know what was a victim doing on this

1500
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 2: date at this time, things that can be verifiable. Right,

1501
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:46,320
Speaker 2: and then you start interweaving people you suspect into those timelines.

1502
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:48,800
Speaker 2: I think that can be a really good investigative tool.

1503
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:53,639
Speaker 2: That would be number one would be timelines. The second

1504
01:28:53,760 --> 01:29:00,160
Speaker 2: would probably be motive, And the motive sometimes isn't so

1505
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:02,880
Speaker 2: obvious though, right, Well, there's so many cases where it's

1506
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 2: just a completely random thing. Reason, Yeah, and so motive

1507
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily the number one for me. And behavior Listen,

1508
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:15,479
Speaker 2: I don't understand my own behavior, let alone someone else's

1509
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:20,720
Speaker 2: number three for me. But I really I view the

1510
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 2: timeline as an investigative tool. I do them in every

1511
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:25,960
Speaker 2: single case I work on. And listen, I don't really

1512
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:29,600
Speaker 2: work on these cases. This is like just me talking, right, right,

1513
01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 2: case I follow, Let's say that I do a timeline

1514
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 2: and you guys have them and you see them and whatnot.

1515
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:38,680
Speaker 2: I have them for every single case that we that

1516
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 2: we talk about pretty much, and I think it's an

1517
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 2: important investigative tool. Yeah.

1518
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:46,120
Speaker 4: Interesting, it's funny.

1519
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 5: And again, just from the surface of how I've gotten

1520
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 5: to know you in the several months that we've worked together,

1521
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,439
Speaker 5: I can see how timeline would track with you because

1522
01:29:55,479 --> 01:29:59,080
Speaker 5: you sort of have a like a linear way or

1523
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 5: a way of just looking at things in a very

1524
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 5: structured way. And I would almost bet that each host,

1525
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 5: each of you, Courtney and Stephanie, you each probably have

1526
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:09,559
Speaker 5: a little bit that some I think one of our

1527
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:12,560
Speaker 5: earlier dms was saying, how we all have different personalities,

1528
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,959
Speaker 5: right Courtney, can I ask you the same which would.

1529
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 4: What about you?

1530
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 2: Uh?

1531
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say motive?

1532
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 4: Motive?

1533
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 3: What drive? So what's the first thing is looking at

1534
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 3: a person's life? Yeah, what drives? Or if there's a suspect,

1535
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 3: it's the thing I'm most compelled by is motive?

1536
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 2: You know, And You're not the only one, Courtney Duris

1537
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 2: love a motive, right, Like without a motive, juries sometimes

1538
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:45,479
Speaker 2: can't can't cross that finish line. And so I think

1539
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 2: that's super common that motive is a driving factor when

1540
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:53,760
Speaker 2: you're looking at something, you know, So yeah, no, it's

1541
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:54,840
Speaker 2: a it's an important.

1542
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 4: And motive and behavior. They kind to me, they kind

1543
01:30:58,240 --> 01:30:59,799
Speaker 4: of weave a little bit into each.

1544
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 7: Kind of yeah, they kind of go together, right, Although

1545
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:06,040
Speaker 7: I am with you with behavior being third as in,

1546
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 7: I give almost no credence to how someone reacts when

1547
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 7: they hear say their spouse died, or even very little

1548
01:31:16,560 --> 01:31:19,839
Speaker 7: often in interrogation rooms, because I just think that behavior

1549
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 7: can be so unpredictable, and how you act in the

1550
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:26,519
Speaker 7: most yeah, tense moment of your life can run the

1551
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 7: gamut of everything.

1552
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:32,519
Speaker 2: So anyway, I have gotten into dozens and dozens and dozens,

1553
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:36,960
Speaker 2: maybe hundreds of Internet arguments about how maybe a parent

1554
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:40,960
Speaker 2: would react when their child is murdered or goes missing

1555
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:44,400
Speaker 2: or whatever. Because listen, you don't know until you're there.

1556
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 2: You might go numb and just be speechless or cry hysterically.

1557
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 2: Everyone is different, but everybody judges, you know, those behaviors

1558
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,639
Speaker 2: about how they think they would react, Right, you don't

1559
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:01,800
Speaker 2: know until it happens to you. You know, the flight

1560
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 2: or freight you know, kind of like griefs in in

1561
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 2: or you have that frozen shock phase is you and

1562
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 2: I know kind of says you know, I just you

1563
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 2: just don't know how you're going to react to something

1564
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:14,719
Speaker 2: until it happens, and I think that's really important to remember.

1565
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 4: That is that's a good point. Okay, I love that.

1566
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 4: I love we're getting to know these and no.

1567
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:22,639
Speaker 2: Morning, you're getting to know how I get into crime.

1568
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,519
Speaker 4: So well, I think I bet you're probably will say.

1569
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 2: That again, it's relevant for the show.

1570
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's truly relevant for the show. I agree, But

1571
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:33,479
Speaker 4: I think you know, hearing some of this, I bet

1572
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 4: there are a lot of listeners out there that can

1573
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 4: relate and will probably in some way, shape or form.

1574
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:41,640
Speaker 5: You know, you might be shaping some minds out there

1575
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:43,720
Speaker 5: in the future. Some other young minds are like, now

1576
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:45,560
Speaker 5: I'm going to get into true crime and I'll be

1577
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:49,080
Speaker 5: the next. But uh, well, we touched on so many

1578
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 5: cases in general tonight, Like, so the next question, you know,

1579
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:57,600
Speaker 5: I have to know what kind of case fascinates you

1580
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:01,320
Speaker 5: the most. Is it missing person's cold case or trials

1581
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:03,800
Speaker 5: that are happening now, or maybe a category that I'm

1582
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:04,639
Speaker 5: not even thinking about.

1583
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 4: So none of those, see one that I'm.

1584
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:08,320
Speaker 3: Not even thinking of.

1585
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 2: There you got, I don't really like missing persons cases.

1586
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 2: I think they're just horribly sad. Trials Absolutely, I like trials,

1587
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:18,679
Speaker 2: but I think the things that fascinate me the most

1588
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 2: are mysteries, active mysteries like just happened that we can

1589
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,240
Speaker 2: really sink our teeth into of any kind.

1590
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 3: Really, I like that.

1591
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 4: I would say, well, I am sadly.

1592
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,840
Speaker 5: I had more questions, but we're TOIDs the end of

1593
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 5: the show, so we won't even have time to get

1594
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 5: into these, but save those. And Courtney, you're not out

1595
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 5: of the help hot seat, because I think down the

1596
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:44,639
Speaker 5: road we're going to do this again, and I want

1597
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:45,760
Speaker 5: you to be up next.

1598
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 3: So let it be far down the road.

1599
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:49,720
Speaker 4: Let it be far.

1600
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 3: But listen, everybody, thank you so much for joining us.

1601
01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 3: Tomorrow we're going to be getting into some of the

1602
01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 3: newly released Epstein files and what new names are coming out.

1603
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 3: Plus we have the latest in the alp Air murder trial,

1604
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:09,720
Speaker 3: the juror's way in on Brendan Banfield and what will

1605
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 3: it be. Listen, have a good night and be good

1606
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,360
Speaker 3: or be good at it, keep it here True Crime Tonight,

1607
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:17,720
Speaker 3: b