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Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast. The questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 2: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, f and

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Speaker 2: bast start changing it with the Bechdel cast.

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Speaker 1: Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlyn, I have a secret what. I

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Speaker 1: wrote a story about a character named Jamie Loftus, and

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Speaker 1: then we were like hosting a podcast together in my story.

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Speaker 1: And then suddenly.

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Speaker 3: Bur Bonour, wow you're feel Wait Jesse, can you see Jamie?

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Speaker 3: Oh wow your homage?

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Speaker 1: She shut them Kitleen, Oh shit them you too, bark

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Speaker 1: bark anyway.

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Speaker 3: Hi. Wow. I panics because I was like, I know

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Speaker 3: the bit I want to do, but I don't have

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Speaker 3: the skills. I can't. I'm ill equipped, but I wrote

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Speaker 3: and fringe we.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Hi, this is the Bechdel Test. My name is

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Speaker 1: Caitlin Dorante, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Jamie Loftus, and I'm controlled by Caitlyn Dorante.

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Speaker 1: Mmm, sorry about it.

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Speaker 3: I frequently find that everything in my life changes. I

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Speaker 3: have friends, I lose them. I'm on all fours, barking

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Speaker 3: like a dog. I'm calling Caitlyn a genius non stop.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 3: It's honestly kind of an incredible way to live. You know,

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Speaker 3: the surrender of free will has its drawbacks, but you

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Speaker 3: know she does let me go to sleep. Sometimes You're welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You're a genius, yes, I know. Anyway, this is our

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Speaker 1: show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,

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Speaker 1: using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point.

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Speaker 1: But Jamie, my creation, what is it?

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Speaker 3: Well? The Bechdel Test is a media metric created originally

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Speaker 3: by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace Test.

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Speaker 3: A lot of versions of the test. The version we

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Speaker 3: use is this one. We require that there be two

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Speaker 3: characters of a marginalized gender with names talking to each

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Speaker 3: other about something other than a man for more than

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Speaker 3: two lines of dialogue in some sort of meaningful way.

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Speaker 3: Can't really be more specific than that you know it

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Speaker 3: when you see it. So those are sort of our requirements. God,

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Speaker 3: this is like such an interesting movie to talk about

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Speaker 3: in regards to the Bechdel Test, because I feel like

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Speaker 3: this movie came out in a stretch of time where

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test was also frequently discussed, often in a

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Speaker 3: way that I feel like it is no longer discussed

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Speaker 3: now in a good way. I'm excited to talk about

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Speaker 3: this movie same And we have a returning guest.

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Speaker 1: We sure do. Our guest is the senior editor at Vulture.

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Speaker 1: He's the host of Good One podcast, and his book,

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Speaker 1: entitled comedy Book Boom, is out on November seventh. It's

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Speaker 1: Jesse David Fox.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back. Hello.

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Speaker 4: I was trying to think it if I know any

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Speaker 4: words in French, and I don't. That's the word.

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Speaker 3: And a happy bonjor to you and happy book. Congratulations

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Speaker 3: on the book.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much. Congratulations on your book.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I was baiting you.

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Speaker 1: I made Jamie write that book. Isn't that a congratulation.

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Speaker 4: You wrote every word for her to sit down to.

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Speaker 1: Type to rewrite. Yes, You're welcome again.

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Speaker 3: Mister Haitlin did not want to eat a hot dog,

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Speaker 3: and so they went really like four dy chest to

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Speaker 3: find a way to get the book written. Welcome back.

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Speaker 3: I realized as we were preparing for this episode, because

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Speaker 3: we're covering Ruby Sparks twenty twelve, that on your first

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Speaker 3: episode we also kind of did not a similar plot,

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Speaker 3: but we did her with you years and years ago,

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Speaker 3: and it's yet another movie about a.

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Speaker 4: Man that a writer creating a contra that he can

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Speaker 4: control as a way of getting over an ex girlfriend

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Speaker 4: that also was a failure because he tried to control

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Speaker 4: that relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Like he's the sort of guy I mean,

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Speaker 3: I guess that they're still out there. I've met them.

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Speaker 3: They're still around. They're kind of an unkillable mutant species.

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Speaker 3: But it is interesting that these two movies. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 3: a guy that's like, I couldn't be a bad person.

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Speaker 3: I'm shy you.

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Speaker 4: It was the cultural zenith of that guy as hero

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Speaker 4: that's shorthand for somewhat redeemable because it's this type of guy. Now,

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Speaker 4: this movie, I think, not to get ahead of it,

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to remember if this watching this movie helped

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Speaker 4: me get over that part of myself that also thought

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Speaker 4: that about like me that was like, well, I'm quiet,

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Speaker 4: so I guess I'm nice. Or did this movie reinforce

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Speaker 4: that feeling in me.

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited to talk to you about that because

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Speaker 3: this movie is now eleven years old, and it's like

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Speaker 3: we would have covered this movie very differently when this

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Speaker 3: show started seven years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, and by.

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Speaker 3: Differently, I mean worse because you grow in all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to talk about this movie. I was

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Speaker 3: pleasantly surprised by how much it broke my brain. But Jesse,

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Speaker 3: what is your history with this film?

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Speaker 4: I didn't see it in theaters, but I do believe

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Speaker 4: I saw it soon after, but I can't totally remember when.

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Speaker 4: But I do feel like this type of movie like Fox, Searchlight,

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Speaker 4: rom Com Adjacent or whatever, was like my favorite type

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Speaker 4: of movie, like Zoe Cazant's starring.

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Speaker 3: Movies directors of Little Miss Sunshine. You're like, yes, I'm listening.

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Speaker 3: I'm listening.

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Speaker 4: Yes, all of this was like exactly my aesthetics. So

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Speaker 4: I know I saw it. I assume like once it

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Speaker 4: was on was streaming around that. I don't know how

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Speaker 4: I saw it, but I know I saw it and then.

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Speaker 1: On demand or something disgusting.

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Speaker 4: And then I was like, I had a memory of

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Speaker 4: this discourse around this and Zoe's sort of relationship to

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Speaker 4: the termatic Pixie dream Girl. I remember reading an interview

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Speaker 4: she said X and then I realized, oh, that was

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Speaker 4: that interview I did with her where I asked her

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Speaker 4: about like, now, how she feels because the creator of

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Speaker 4: the termatic Pixie dream Girl regretted it, and then she

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Speaker 4: was sort of the champion of how maybe the term,

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Speaker 4: unlike the Bechdel test, was sort of like sloppily applied

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Speaker 4: at the time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and that's like I totally agree. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: can't tell someone how to, you know, deal with their

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Speaker 3: own word that they made popular, and like Nathan Raven

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Speaker 3: is amazing, But it did feel like retracting it entirely

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Speaker 3: was an overcorrection. It was just like, no, it's a thing,

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Speaker 3: but just like not in every single case that someone

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Speaker 3: says it is right, yes, right.

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Speaker 4: It became a way to fairly quickly disregard female performances

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Speaker 4: and female characters so much so then if you then reject,

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Speaker 4: you're like, well then are we Then we forgot The

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Speaker 4: first point was to criticize a type of female character

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Speaker 4: that this movie also was trying to criticize exactly. And

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Speaker 4: then now we're back to partly the aesthetics of this

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Speaker 4: character doesn't exist in the same way anymore, because like

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Speaker 4: it was so associated with like certain types of haircuts

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Speaker 4: and clothes.

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Speaker 3: My minit right, she's got the bangs, she's got the

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Speaker 3: little cap sleeve dresses and you're like, yep, yep, we

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Speaker 3: were there, we saw it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So because for your people have bangs, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: like I don't know gen Z's relationship to this idea. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and it seems like it, if anything, it has like

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Speaker 4: it's right for a resurgence, right. It is like not

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Speaker 4: so removed from like girl Dinner or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Right. I think that this can like exist in conversation

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Speaker 3: with I don't know what, like whatever every generation things

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Speaker 3: that they've solved things and reinvented the wheel, and they

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Speaker 3: never have and they never will. And that's just sort

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Speaker 3: of my view on the state of things. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's like gen Z has their version of these too.

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Speaker 3: That will also be embarrassing to look back on ten

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Speaker 3: years from now. I was thinking of Girl Dinner, Girl

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Speaker 3: Math Girl, which is like something that I've sort of

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Speaker 3: let fly at different points as well. When there's that

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Speaker 3: Christmas in a line of like you haven't written a woman,

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Speaker 3: You've written a girl, And I'm like, and what do

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Speaker 3: you mean by what you know?

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Speaker 1: What are you saying?

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Speaker 4: What side do you then take by saying that I

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Speaker 4: am Switzerland.

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Speaker 3: I think let the girls do what they want. Let

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Speaker 3: the girls do what they want.

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Speaker 1: That character makes some like very good points, and then

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Speaker 1: he makes some very bad points throughout the movie. He's

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Speaker 1: very inconsistent.

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Speaker 3: I mean, but that's kind of what I appreciated about him.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, that seems like a guy that exists in

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Speaker 3: the world where he's like, I love my wife so much,

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Speaker 3: but I would change her if I could.

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Speaker 4: And you're like, yeah, he is a similar you know,

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Speaker 4: insomuch as this movie's in conversation with like five hundred

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Speaker 4: Days of Summer. He like is very much in the

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Speaker 4: same ilk as like the DOOTI Er the more do

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Speaker 4: characters of that movie. Yeah, he was like this version

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Speaker 4: in that movie. They're both browier than the lead, but

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Speaker 4: also like the conscience of the movie because in that

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Speaker 4: movie is like I would give my wife bigger tits

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Speaker 4: if I could, but in retrospect it wouldn't change anything, right.

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Speaker 3: But I love that broad Yeah, the chad conscience of

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Speaker 3: the film.

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Speaker 4: So it is interesting to be like, is everything this

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Speaker 4: character says ultimately the person we should be supporting there is? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: because that line is the like philosophical thesis I guess

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Speaker 4: of the movie.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, way more so than anything Calvin e

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Speaker 3: versus or for sure, I didn't make that connection. I also,

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Speaker 3: I mean, this movie feels very much a cousin to

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Speaker 3: five hundred Days of Summer. I haven't seen five hundred

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Speaker 3: Days of Summer recently. Yeah, I mean I haven't really

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Speaker 3: revisited it. But I was at Ikea with a man

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Speaker 3: recently and was like, wow, is something bad about to

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Speaker 3: happen to me?

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Speaker 4: Did you run around?

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Speaker 3: No, very intentionally stayed stills of behavior. I tried to

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Speaker 3: really stay as still as possible and really like stay

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Speaker 3: the path and get the plates I had come there for.

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Speaker 3: Another similarity that this movie had with five Hundred Days

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Speaker 3: the Summer is that I hate the last scene.

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Speaker 4: Yes, sure, very similar last seed?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Similar? Yes.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk about the ending of this

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Speaker 1: movie and the rest of it. All right, James, what

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Speaker 1: is your relationship with this movie?

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Speaker 3: Ruby Sparks, I had not seen this movie, and I

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Speaker 3: didn't know a lot about it. I think that we

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Speaker 3: were all there in the twenty tens Manic Pixie dream

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Speaker 3: Girl mess of attempt to have a conversation, you know,

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Speaker 3: which we were a part of, and like, I just

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Speaker 3: never got to this movie because based off of like

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Speaker 3: what I was catching from this conversation, it seemed like

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Speaker 3: to me it was framed as a movie that was

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Speaker 3: purpose trading these tropes as opposed to criticizing and interacting

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Speaker 3: with them. And I think that that just like stuck

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Speaker 3: in my head. And also, to be fair, the marketing

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Speaker 3: does not really do much to change your mind. I

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Speaker 3: went back and watched the trailer as well as the

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Speaker 3: original reviews of this movie, which I'm like, Zoe Cazan

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Speaker 3: kind of a playing a game of forty chess there,

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Speaker 3: because it's like everyone received this as like a quirky

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Speaker 3: what was the god? The Atlantic review Ruby sparks a

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Speaker 3: charming tale of boy makes girl, and You're like, uh

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Speaker 3: huh uh huh uh huh did they see the scene

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Speaker 3: where he made her bark like a dog and call

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Speaker 3: him a genius? Apparently they didn't. But yeah, I had

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Speaker 3: avoided this movie because I thought it was a perpetrator

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Speaker 3: and not a and I was really pleasantly surprised by

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Speaker 3: this movie. I really enjoyed it. I mean there's stuff

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Speaker 3: about it that I would just love a rundown of

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Speaker 3: what the studio notes were for this movie, because I

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Speaker 3: feel like that last scene doesn't feel consistent with what

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Speaker 3: is happening even minutes before. And I think Zoe Czanne

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Speaker 3: is a terrific writer, and so I'm like, I just

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Speaker 3: don't think she would do that. But there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of cool stuff in this movie that I feel like

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen done quite this well in other places.

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Speaker 3: I liked it, Caitlin, What's your History?

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Speaker 1: I also had never seen it, and I think I

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Speaker 1: had a very similar experience as you, Jamie, as far

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Speaker 1: as like people would talk about it all the time

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Speaker 1: in a pretty critical way, and either I misunderstood what

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Speaker 1: they were criticizing, or the people who were criticizing it

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Speaker 1: misunderstood what the movie was. Either way, I also thought

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Speaker 1: it was like, Wow, a classic example of a manic

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Speaker 1: pixie dream girl presented uncritically, and isn't that awesome? And

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Speaker 1: so I also was just like, I don't really feel

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Speaker 1: compelled to watch this, or again, I might have been

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding what people were saying about it. Way, I'd never

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Speaker 1: seen it, and so when I was watching it, I

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Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, the things I thought about

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Speaker 1: this movie don't seem to be the things that are

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Speaker 1: actually here in this movie. So I found it refreshing.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, I found it challenging, Like I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: what hang on? And I think I'm going to like

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Speaker 1: be processing a lot of my thoughts about this movie

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Speaker 1: in real time on this episode. But I was pleasantly

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Speaker 1: surprised by it, especially going in with like pretty low

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Speaker 1: expectations based on the buzz.

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Speaker 3: I do feel like if the ending was fused with

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Speaker 3: a bit it would like do really well coming out

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Speaker 3: right now. And also if the outfits were better.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think they were good for the time.

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Speaker 3: At the time, they were incredible.

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Speaker 4: Well honestly, that is like truly the most dating part

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Speaker 4: of my life. So literally every single person I dated

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Speaker 4: for like seven years stress like that. So I'm like,

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Speaker 4: that's the feminine ideal of like what I imagine people

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Speaker 4: should dress like, So I don't have a problem. He

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Speaker 4: dressed terribly. He dressed also only in a tan and green.

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Speaker 4: It was like such a clear director.

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Speaker 1: Stoy is he Shaggy from Scooby Doo.

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Speaker 3: He was serving Shaggy the whole movie, including on the poster.

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Speaker 4: But I do think the ending is even two years

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Speaker 4: later or whenever, like inside Eama, Shumer became the most

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Speaker 4: popular show on television. The studio notes would be like end.

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Speaker 4: It's the exact opposite way, like we want this to

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Speaker 4: be the most heavy handed ending possible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he would get hit by a eighteen wheel yeer

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Speaker 3: a couple of years later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This movie, I will say, proves a theory that I

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Speaker 3: was recently revisiting, or at least Zoe Cuzam feels the

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Speaker 3: same way because it is fiction. But that the moment

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Speaker 3: someone becomes famous, they stop maturing forever, or at least

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Speaker 3: stop maturing in some ways forever. Yeah, and that's Calvin

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Speaker 3: to the core. He's behaving so nineteen, this entire movie

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Speaker 3: in spite of being thirty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shall I do the recap and then we'll go

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Speaker 1: from there.

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Speaker 3: Let's recap.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, let's take a break first, and then we'll

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Speaker 1: come back.

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Speaker 3: And we're back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here is the recap. We open on a silhouetted

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Speaker 1: image of a woman being like, there you are. I've

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Speaker 1: been looking for you, tee. What why are you looking

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Speaker 1: at me like that?

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Speaker 3: Zoe zan is he he hahi on the storm, Yes,

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Speaker 3: I love it, And then Calvin Weirfields wakes up.

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Speaker 1: That's Paul Dano. He was having a dream about this woman.

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Speaker 1: Calvin is a writer who ten years ago wrote an

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Speaker 1: acclaimed novel when he was only nineteen, but he since

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Speaker 1: has not been able to write much of anything.

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Speaker 3: I found these scenes triggering.

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Speaker 1: I was like, relatable much. We see him, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: sitting down trying to write, but his writer's block is

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Speaker 1: very intense, so we see him instead hanging out with

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Speaker 1: his dog, Scottie. He hangs out with his brother Harry

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Speaker 1: played by Chrismasina. Awesome baffling. How in what world are

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Speaker 1: they brothers.

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Speaker 4: And grew up seemingly in California despite he seems so

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Speaker 4: Midwestern and him the most New york Man.

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Speaker 3: Right. I've also read in like the original press tour,

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Speaker 3: like both Paul Dana and Christmasina were like, We're aware

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Speaker 3: we look nothing alike, but we enjoyed it. You're like, okay, okay, okay, boys.

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Speaker 1: So Calvin seems to not have much in the way

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Speaker 1: of friends. He seems to struggle to meet and connect

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Speaker 1: with people. He goes to a therapist, Elliott Gold. His

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Speaker 1: name is doctor Rosenthal or something, but Elliott Gold is

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Speaker 1: his therapist. He gives Calvin a little writing assignment to

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Speaker 1: try to help him to start writing again, and the

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Speaker 1: assignment is to write a page where someone meets Calvin's dog,

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Speaker 1: Scottie and likes the dog for who he is, despite

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Speaker 1: him being skittish and slobbery. Then that night, Calvin has

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Speaker 1: a dream about the same woman who we will come

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Speaker 1: to know as Ruby Sparks.

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Speaker 3: I think their writing in this scene is so good

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Speaker 3: because she's just like challenging him in such a movie

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Speaker 3: way where I watched this movie back to back twice

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Speaker 3: and watching that scene go back, where it's like I

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Speaker 3: would have loved that exchange when I was in high school.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, Wow, she's not like other girls. She's really

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Speaker 3: like given him, like she's a handful. But when you

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Speaker 3: watch that scene back, like she's challenging him in the

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Speaker 3: safest way possible, Like she's only ever allowed to challenge

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Speaker 3: him in a way that is safe for him.

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Speaker 1: Also, she's not like other girls. She doesn't know who

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Speaker 1: f Scott Fitzgerald is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and he gets to tell her for how acclaimed

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Speaker 4: of an author is. The books around this movie are

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Speaker 4: so they are like a teenager's collection of books.

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Speaker 1: Catcher in the Rye, Great Gats be like the stuff

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Speaker 1: that you read because you're supposed you like are required

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Speaker 1: to in high school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really felt like James Franco novelist era unfortunately.

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Speaker 4: Which is also this time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, So this dream woman meets and likes Scottie the Dog,

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Speaker 1: and then Calvin wakes up from this dream suddenly very

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Speaker 1: inspired by the woman, and he starts writing page after

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Speaker 1: page about Ruby Sparks. He has his brother Harry read

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Speaker 1: what he's written of this manuscript so far, and Harry

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Speaker 1: basically tells him that Calvin does not understand women, and

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Speaker 1: that he's like written a very like tropy manic pixie

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Speaker 1: dreamgirl type and that no one is going to want

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Speaker 1: to read this.

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Speaker 3: This Chad is a literary critic. He is absolutely killing

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Speaker 3: it in this scene. We'll get back to how his

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Speaker 3: wife is treated, because we are told a lot about her,

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Speaker 3: even though we see her one time and she's like,

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Speaker 3: why is this bra here? You're like, good job movie.

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Speaker 4: So he's a sports agent but able to like read

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Speaker 4: and digest a short story in like a dinner with

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Speaker 4: his brother.

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Speaker 3: I really, I actually really liked that choice. I like

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Speaker 3: that it is not challenged. They're like, yeah, he's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a reader when he's not managing sports?

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Speaker 4: Is it a It's also like they let the how

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Speaker 4: you code the actors in your brain do so much

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Speaker 4: work of filling out who these people are, Like, well,

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Speaker 4: he's a Christmas an a type, so obviously he's a

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Speaker 4: sport agent. You won't realize that until like way later

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Speaker 4: in the movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So, despite his brother's criticism, Calvin continues to fantasize about

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Speaker 1: and write about Ruby, writing this story where she and

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Speaker 1: a guy very much like himself down to like that

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Speaker 1: character also being named Calvin, being so in love with

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Speaker 1: each other. One day, as he is about to leave

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Speaker 1: home for a meeting, a woman is suddenly in Calvin's kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and this woman is Ruby Sparks, played by Zoe Kazan.

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Speaker 3: Ruby. Ruby what her most recent episode, I already brought

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Speaker 3: up Shaggy. This is what I bring to the show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, Shaggy the dog more like Scottie the dog,

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Speaker 1: who I think is the best character in the movie

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Speaker 1: because he pisses on Calvin's bed and that makes him

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Speaker 1: mask who he is.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that was inspired by Calvin and Hobbes

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Speaker 4: or they guess the image of Oh no, I guess Calvin.

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Speaker 4: Calvin is the one that peeces though.

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Speaker 1: Oh, because Calvin and Hobbes, Hobbes and Shaw. Anyway, think

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Speaker 1: about it, you know.

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Speaker 3: Scotti and Calvin, we got there, Scotty and Calvin exactly.

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Speaker 4: The three most iconic duos of the last thirty years.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's all making sense.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So Ruby Sparks is in Calvin's kitchen and she

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Speaker 1: appears to be a real life person who does not

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Speaker 1: realize she is a figment of Calvin's imagination that has

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Speaker 1: magically materialized, and he will not tell her that for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Anyway, Calvin, he's freaking out. He thinks

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Speaker 1: he's hallucinating, that he's like, you know, losing his mind,

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Speaker 1: and Ruby is just like, what's wrong, babe? Is everything? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So Calvin tries to sneak out of the house, but

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Speaker 1: Ruby's like, where are you going? Can I come with you?

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Speaker 1: So she rides along with him, but then he ditches

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Speaker 1: her because he's meeting up with this woman, Mabel played

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Speaker 1: by Alia Shokut, who gave him her number at a

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Speaker 1: book event. Because she's like kind of like this groupie

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Speaker 1: type who's like trying to sleep with him, and he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have any friends, so this is like the person

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Speaker 1: he called. They go out for coffee, but Ruby spots

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Speaker 1: them and thinks Calvin is cheating on her, so Ruby

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Speaker 1: starts to make a commotion and he figures no one

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Speaker 1: else can hear or see Ruby, but everyone around him

415
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Speaker 1: is like, yes, I can see this woman. So Ruby

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Speaker 1: is real in the sense that she now exists in

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Speaker 1: the world and everyone can see her, and Calvin is like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I have a real life girlfriend. Now awesome, And then

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Speaker 1: we get this montage of like them being in love.

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Speaker 1: They're going to a zombie film festival at the Hall

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Speaker 1: would Forever Cemetery. They're going to an arcade.

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Speaker 3: Like attempt at the IKEA scene.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they do run through. Is it a video

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Speaker 4: game place?

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Speaker 1: Yea, sort of like an arcade.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it is a pitch perfect. This part of this

427
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Speaker 4: movie is those movies, and at this point you're watching

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Speaker 4: a probably like, oh, I guess it's just like another

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Speaker 4: one of those movies. If you didn't know that this

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Speaker 4: was making fun of that, you'd just be like, Oh,

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Speaker 4: I guess we're just going to do that, And I

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Speaker 4: haven't seen that for a while.

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Speaker 3: So involuntarily like Regina Spector starts playing in the back

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Speaker 3: of your head and you're like, no, no, I didn't

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Speaker 3: consent to this, right.

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Speaker 1: So then Calvin tells his brother how Ruby is real now,

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Speaker 1: and Harry is like, that's not possible. Talk to your

438
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: therapist because you've lost your mind. But then Calvin introduces

439
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: Harry to Ruby. Harry still thinks it's some kind of hoax,

440
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: like maybe she's an impostor who's trying to trick Calvin.

441
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: So Harry tells Calvin to write something about her and

442
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: if it comes true, then they'll know that this real.

443
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: So Calvin writes that Ruby speaks fluent French, and then

444
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: suddenly Ruby is speaking fluent French, and Harry is like, wow,

445
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: this is awesome. You can make her do anything you want.

446
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: You can give her huge titties, you can you know,

447
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: change her.

448
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 3: And sleep where he's really going, leaning into the sports

449
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: agent side of his character.

450
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 4: Not the sympathetic brothers like you need more therapy. But

451
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 4: now he's like, well, now that I know you're okay,

452
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 4: immediately my second order.

453
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 3: And don't give blow jobs after a couple months. That scene,

454
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a low for that character, but again,

455
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 3: very rewatchable scene where Calvin is like, I wouldn't change

456
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: a hair in Ruby's head. She's amazing.

457
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: I love for Can I ask since I've seen this before,

458
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 4: so I knew where it was going at that moment,

459
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 4: were you both still being like maybe fuck this movie?

460
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 4: Like maybe this movie is doing.

461
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: Is I couldn't tell.

462
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, cool because like rewatching that's the first time, like

463
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 4: my stomach starts hurting or whatever, or like or you're

464
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 4: just like, don't do this. These people like be different

465
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 4: people already.

466
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 3: I do know that I was still very on the

467
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 3: fence at that point in the movie. But I think that,

468
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: like Paul Dano's performance is really good because on the

469
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: second watch, I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't think I

470
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: believed him the first time. The way that he says it.

471
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: It's like, I think, honestly where I was like, maybe

472
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: this movie is interesting and good because when I saw

473
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: it was written by Zoe kuzannam okay, okay, promising, And

474
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 3: then when he first calls his ex girlfriend a slut

475
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: in therapy, I'm like, yeah, maybe this movie is going

476
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 3: to be which if you haven't seen this movie, that

477
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: sounds like a very bizarre comment to be like, maybe

478
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: this movie rules, but like it's to show the like sympathetic,

479
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: like tortured artist writer character and then have him say

480
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 3: something awful early on in a way that, like, even

481
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, you would be like, well, that's an

482
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: obviously cruel thing to say about someone. This person lacks introspection,

483
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: I would get.

484
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think where I was was because we've seen

485
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: him say pretty nasty things about women before this, and

486
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: then the way he just describes and characterizes Ruby. I

487
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: was like, oh, he's a shitty person, yeah, and he

488
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: does not respect when when.

489
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 3: He gives her the backstory, Oh, we'll talk about it.

490
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes. But I was like, oh, I bet he

491
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: is going to try to change and manipulate Ruby, especially

492
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: because he doesn't tell her right away that she's a

493
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: figment of his imagination. But I wasn't sure. Well, I

494
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if the movie was going to be critical

495
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: of his behavior or just be like here it is,

496
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: isn't this squirky? So at that point I wasn't sure

497
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: where was going to go.

498
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 4: Also, like the language, especially twenty twelve, especially to a

499
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 4: male audience member, You're like, yeah, that's how guys talk

500
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 4: or whatever, like what do you even note? Like the

501
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: subtlety of it is even more subtle than where I

502
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 4: guess guys more frequently called women's sluts, not necessarily as

503
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 4: a pejorative, but like clearly Zoe knew, Like you see

504
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 4: it now, they're like, oh, this is actually she was

505
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: giving bread crumbs. I guess in the first act.

506
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a rewatchable movie. It's so cool where

507
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, there are the big obvious things where

508
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I don't I don't like this guy.

509
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: But I didn't even realize all of the clues that

510
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: they leave behind of like what a piece of shitty is?

511
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: Just like in real life, what.

512
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: A treat mister snowman? I gave you all the clue

513
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: or what is plan? I gave you all the clues?

514
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: That's from the Snowman. Some man was a guy, right,

515
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: but was a snowman?

516
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: Refer to our Matreon episode about truly my Memory.

517
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: I'm like many Black Mind wipes after every episode.

518
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: I don't know why did.

519
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 3: I don't know why we did.

520
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: I don't know why we covered that, but I think

521
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: it was just like.

522
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 3: Lockdown and let's do something amazing. Cool, Let's bring joy

523
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: to the okay to the world.

524
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: Okay. So well, Harry is like, wow, you can change

525
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: her and make her do whatever you want, and Calvin's like, no,

526
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: I'm never going to write about her again, and he

527
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: locks his manuscript away in a drawer. But after some time,

528
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 1: Calvin starts to realize that Ruby isn't this idealized version

529
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: of a woman who he fictionalized, that she's a real

530
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: person who has free will. She isn't at his beck

531
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: and call all the time, you know, sometimes she's too

532
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: tired for sex. She wants to get a job at

533
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: a coffee shop so that she doesn't have to be

534
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: financially dependent on him.

535
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 3: The way that he reacts to her wanting a job

536
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: by being like, look over here, this thing I just

537
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: said no to you can have it. Now, shut up

538
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: about getting a job. And you're like, oh, no, what

539
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: year is a oh? And that's howats all women?

540
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: Mm hm. And then Ruby is also starting to realize

541
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: that Calvin is a pretty shitty boyfriend and person, especially

542
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: after they go to this trip to visit calvin mom

543
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: played by Annette Benning and her husband Antonio benderis where

544
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: the whole time, Calvin is being just like kind of mean,

545
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: and he's very stubborn. He's no fun to be around.

546
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: He's disrespectful, and Ruby calls him out for it, and

547
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: she also tells him that she's lonely. She wants to

548
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: make friends. She wants to take an art class and

549
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: spend a few nights at her own apartment each week.

550
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: So she's, you know, trying to establish healthy boundaries. And

551
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: he does not like this. He gets more and more insecure.

552
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: He cannot deal with her being her own person.

553
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: He doesn't want her to have friends.

554
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And one night, when she's out with her

555
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: friends from her class, he takes the manuscript that he

556
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: was writing about Ruby. He takes it back out of

557
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 1: the drawer and writes Ruby was miserable without Calvin. And

558
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: then he immediately gets a call from Ruby saying I

559
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: want to come home. And then she becomes cartoonishly clingy,

560
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: and codependence.

561
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 4: Gets do some acting. It's a big yes.

562
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: It's so good in the yes, yeah, yep, which he

563
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: starts to feel suffocated by this clinginess, so then he

564
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: types another sentence that Ruby is filled with effervescent joy,

565
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: and then she becomes cartoonishly and annoyingly joyous.

566
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 4: Annoying to him, I think this is I think it's

567
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: very cute to.

568
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: Those it's everything but the like being woken up by

569
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: a baby deer kind of thing.

570
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: And now he's concerned that she's only happy because he

571
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: wrote her to be happy, but he wants to be

572
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: able to make her organically value concern, so then he

573
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: writes Ruby was just Ruby happy or sad however she felt,

574
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: and now it seems like she's experiencing mood swings and

575
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 1: that she doesn't really have control over her own emotions,

576
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: and he's trying to make her feel better. He's like,

577
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: let's go to this book party. And they go to

578
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: this party hosted by another writer played by Steve Coogan

579
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: who tries to come on to Ruby, and then Calvin

580
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: catches them together in a swimming pool when they're in

581
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: their underwear, so Calvin freaks out and brings her home.

582
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: There's a whole interaction also between Calvin and his ex

583
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: girlfriend Lyla at this party. We'll talk about that later,

584
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: but at home, Calvin is like, Ruby, you embarrassed me.

585
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: You're supposed to be my girlfriend, so act like it,

586
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: and they have this whole argument that will unpack later,

587
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: but basically, she's like, you don't get to decide what

588
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: I do and what I don't do, Like I'm my

589
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: own person. And he's like, you want to bet because

590
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: I can make you do whatever I want. And she's like, what.

591
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: This scene is brutal, absolute hard to watch.

592
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 4: I measure writing it for yourself to do with yours.

593
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 4: She Ruby sparks herself.

594
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: Kill you guys, what are you doing?

595
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? Really wild? But Calvin goes to his typewriter and

596
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: there's a whole scene that plays out like a horror

597
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: movie where he types a bunch of stuff and makes

598
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: her do things and prevents her from doing other things,

599
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: such as leaving, to show her that she is his creation,

600
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: and she's obviously horrified and betrayed and she's sobbing. And

601
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: then when she finally has the opportunity, she runs away.

602
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: And then Calvin, I guess, realizing that he shouldn't have

603
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: done all that stuff, returns to his typewriter and writes

604
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: as soon as Ruby left the house, the past released her.

605
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: She was no longer Calvin's creation. She was free, and

606
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: he is devastated that she's gone, But again he is

607
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: like it was the right thing to do, and we're

608
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: like duh. And then the movie ends with Calvin turning

609
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: this story that just unfolded into a new novel. The

610
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: novel gets published, people read it, they love it. And

611
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: then one day Calvin is walking Scottie the dog in

612
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: the park and Scotty runs over.

613
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: The same scene where it's like sort of a Frankenstein

614
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: of yeah, kind of eternal Sunshine and the end of

615
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 3: five hundred Days of Summer.

616
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, where Scotty runs over to Ruby, who does not

617
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: recognize Calvin or remember anything about their relationship since he

618
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: had like released her from the past, And then they

619
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: start chatting and it's implied that they're going to reconnect

620
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: and possibly like get together. The end run the other

621
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: way truly. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick

622
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: break and we'll be back to discuss, and we're back. Okay,

623
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: we start?

624
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: Where can we start?

625
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: Where can we start?

626
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: I don't know.

627
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: Again. I was expecting something very different based on the

628
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: comments and criticism I had heard about this movie in

629
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: years past, and was surprised to learn that it is

630
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: like to some extent, an indictment of the type of

631
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: like misogynist man who is not capable of a relationship

632
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: with a real human woman because he projects some fantasy

633
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: or ideal onto her. Then he resents her.

634
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 3: Movie that we've covered with Jesse before.

635
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: What a man falling in love with falt some one

636
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: who's not a real woman.

637
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, their idea of who they are.

638
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then resents when she cannot live up to

639
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: his like projection or idealized version of her, and he

640
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: resents that she has free will, and which is very

641
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 1: abusive along the way.

642
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: The core of this movie is he hates that his

643
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: girlfriends have free will. Unfortunate.

644
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it's sort of my main problem with the movie,

645
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: not philosophically, but sort of, Well, the ending is a

646
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: whole other thing, but like they spend so much time

647
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 4: with him trying to prove that he's not going crazy

648
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 4: that it then underlines the sort of like magic of

649
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 4: it where I feel like if he accepted that she exists,

650
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: his actions would feel less because of the magical concept

651
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 4: and more because of his behavior, you know what I mean.

652
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: Like it sometimes I feel like it's supposed to be

653
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 4: ambiguous if he's making decisions, because like, well, you can't

654
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 4: have a job, you don't have a social security number,

655
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 4: you're a fake person or whatever. Yeah, But I only

656
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 4: am thinking that because they spend so much time, and

657
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 4: that seems like such a studio thing, being like, no

658
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 4: one's gonna believe this. You have to have three different

659
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 4: characters verified, right, And I think that's partly like first

660
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 4: time screenwriter getting to make a movie. She can't be

661
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 4: like nine million movies do. Like every single Woody Allen

662
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 4: movie literally does this where they're just like, some magical

663
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 4: thing happens and they don't have to prove it. And

664
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 4: I think this is all to say. I do think

665
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 4: it obscures the like, oh, I'm watching a rom com,

666
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 4: like a magical rom com quality to it, because you're like, oh,

667
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 4: it's a magical rom com where this thing happens. I

668
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 4: guess it's also how he's able to justify why this

669
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 4: is a book at the end of it.

670
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: Also, I feel like setting up the therapist character and

671
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: then having him not included for the vast majority of

672
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: the movie. I'm like, he has to find out like

673
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 3: if that's gonna be the thrust, like or maybe don't

674
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: include that character. I don't know. I was confused about.

675
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 4: I also thought he's a really well written, therapist and

676
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 4: really well performed. He goes can it be bad and goes,

677
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 4: I'd like for it to be very bad. I was like,

678
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 4: everything about that seed is perfectly and then he's just gone, Yeah.

679
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: I saw a piece in Collider a couple of years

680
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: ago in twenty and twenty one ever heard of it

681
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: by Tony Oysen, which you know it's I had this

682
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: thought as I was watching, and I think that this

683
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 3: is maybe a trapping of current film criticism where you're like,

684
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: this movie is actually a horror movie. Everything about that, Yeah,

685
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 3: But I do think that this writer kind of unpacked

686
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 3: that pretty well, and save for the ending, the movie

687
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: kind of plays out that way in a way that

688
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: feels mostly intentional. But I've seen this. I've seen this

689
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 3: movie characterize so many different ways in different like i've

690
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: seen a characterize, and I think the way that we're

691
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 3: going to be coming at it today where this is

692
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 3: like a I think, like such a well done sort

693
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: of takedown of this like stock character that viewers in

694
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 3: twenty twelve weren't even prepared and like did not maybe

695
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: get it. I also described when it came out as

696
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: more of a commentary on like the beginning of a

697
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: relationship versus the difficult reality of actually being with someone,

698
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: which I feel like is referenced more in the relationship

699
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 3: between the brothers of Like, No, she's a person, and like,

700
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: things will not be amazing every day and it's not

701
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: going to be like dick sucking city. That's not how

702
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 3: a relationship works, and he's like, I'm sure, sure, Christmas, Na,

703
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna get my like anyways. So there's that

704
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 3: read of it as well, and I've seen Zoe xand

705
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: speak to both parts of it, so I just want

706
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that, but I am more interested in what

707
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: we're talking about. You're like, yeah, relationships are hard, But

708
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: I feel like that would play out if the story

709
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: wasn't so based in control of one over the other,

710
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 3: because it's like, I think that you can have that

711
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: discussion in a very like surface sense, but it only

712
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: applies to this couple so far, because it's like he

713
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: is ge peddling the shit out of her the entire

714
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: Like she can barely participate in their relationship because of

715
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: the controls that are the reason that she's even there.

716
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 3: So I don't know. Yeah, that rate of it didn't

717
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 3: hit for me as much.

718
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: If anything, I feel like it uses that theme as

719
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 4: a sort of like trojan horse for like the actual

720
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: like satirical point is making, right, Like I think that's

721
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: essentially like what five Hundred Days of Summer is about, right, Like,

722
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 4: insomuch as five hundred Days of Summer does not feel

723
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: like this movie at all, even though like that is

724
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 4: essentially the point of five hundred Day Summer is that

725
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 4: because by the she barks like a dog part, you're like, oh,

726
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 4: holy shit, like that scene a shot like a horror film.

727
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: You can see a version of this with a different

728
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 4: third act that become like a Black Mirror episode, like

729
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 4: if it's like really heavy handed, but instead it's sort

730
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 4: of like just subtle enough that essentially I think it

731
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 4: makes it a much more like graceful critique, but also

732
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 4: I guess can make it so dumb people or people

733
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 4: who are not prone no, not you, like I'm just

734
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: a magic male critics being like what an interesting rom com? Right,

735
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 4: So it's like and I do think that's like always

736
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 4: the sort of problem with satire where either like I'm

737
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 4: gonna be so heavy handed that it's so annoying, right

738
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: like most Black Mirror episodes, or do it like this,

739
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 4: which is like, oh, it can kind of trick certain

740
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 4: people into being like, oh, I thought I was going

741
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: to rom com. I now realize my title understanding of

742
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: dating is wrong.

743
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: Right. I don't like the last scene, but I feel

744
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: like if it was maybe played a little bit different,

745
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: it could have that black mirror quality to it, and

746
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: I like mileage definitely varies on that. But the idea that,

747
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: for whatever reason I don't understand the magical rules of

748
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: this universe that Mine in Black wipes Ruby's memories the

749
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: way that it does every time I press stop on

750
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 3: my zoom recorder. But like the fact that she could

751
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: be much like Clementine and Joel in Eternal Sunshine of

752
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: the Spotless Mind, she could be stuck in this loop

753
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: of having to like be with this nightmare of a

754
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: person who is incapable of growth forever question mark. But

755
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 3: I don't think that that's what the last thing's trying

756
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 3: to say. I think there's a read of it that

757
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, she's trapped, She's trapped, and that is

758
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: the ending of a horror movie that is final destination.

759
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: Right, But no, I think the ending is actually like

760
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: the studio being like this needs a happier, more uplifting ending,

761
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: So let's have it so that he meets her again

762
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: and now he's a redeemed man. And even though he

763
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: was so abusive to her prior to this, he redeemed

764
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: himself because he apologized in the book that he wrote

765
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: about and it is.

766
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 3: Actively Yeah, the thing he's actively profiting from and will

767
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: buy a second house with good for him and we it's.

768
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 4: I don't understand what narrative thrust we're supposed to believe

769
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 4: earned any sort of redemption.

770
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 3: So glad narrative thrust is he's really been getting into

771
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: the word therust recently, and just even the tacit support

772
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 3: of it, it makes me physically ill. No, I agree,

773
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 3: And I think that like a different version of this again,

774
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: it's like the two movies that it feels like that

775
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: last scene are influenced by. It's not completely dissimilar from

776
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 3: the end of Eternal Sunshine, except you do get the

777
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 3: clear feeling from Eternal Sunshine that their relationship will fail again. Yeah,

778
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 3: it will fail for the same reasons, and they are

779
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: agreeing that they're going to do it anyways. Where it's

780
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: like Ruby again, she is just like she has no autonomy,

781
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 3: she has none of the information, and so she is

782
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: like doomed to be because it's like, what is he

783
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 3: going to do in this happy version ending? Is he

784
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 3: going to not tell her again? Yeah, it seems like

785
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 3: it's about to happen.

786
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: You won't know.

787
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a fix for now. I'm like if he

788
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 4: literally if the movie cuts with him being like, I

789
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 4: have to tell you something.

790
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 3: Then that's interesting. Ooh. I kind of like, yeah, very

791
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 3: would have to change and then you're like, oh, this

792
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 3: was kind of a horror movie because I think Calvin

793
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 3: is a really I mean, he's despicable, he's the worst,

794
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 3: but he's a really interesting, like well written character where

795
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: he is saying stuff at the beginning of the movie,

796
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: like he has that line girls aren't interested in me,

797
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: They're interested in some idea of me, which is basically

798
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: identical to something Clementine says in Eternal Sunshine, and he

799
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: does mean that he is worried about it. Seems like

800
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 3: part of the reason he's reclusive is because he's insecure

801
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 3: about his work, obviously based on his past relationship, and

802
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: he's worried about being I guess in he feels the

803
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: reason he's not in a relationship is because he's afraid

804
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: that they will want mister cool literary guy and not

805
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: who he actually is. Problem being he has no idea

806
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: who he actually is and has no interest.

807
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: Well that, And it's like, I think this movie is

808
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: like kind of commenting on the hypocrisy of this exactly

809
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: because Ruby says that exact thing later, right, His concern

810
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: is I want someone who wants me for me, not

811
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: some idea of me, And then all he wants is

812
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: his idea of what a girlfriend should be.

813
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is like, I just think it's so well

814
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 3: because I didn't catch that on the I mean, you

815
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 3: can't really if you don't know what's going to happen.

816
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: That line feels kind of innocuous in the first viewing,

817
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: but on the second viewing and you're like, damn, she's good,

818
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: she got my ass good. And that scene is doubled

819
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: down on when his relationship with Lila is clarified at

820
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 3: that party, being as vague as possible. I have a

821
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: friend who went through something like that not too long ago,

822
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: where everyone's version of their breakup is going to be

823
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 3: different and never completely objectively accurate. Impossible to have an

824
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 3: objective experience of that. But similar to how like Calvin

825
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 3: chose the element of the breakup that was painful for him,

826
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 3: because of course, getting broken up with after your parent

827
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: has recently died would be painful for anyone that's disorienting,

828
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: but chooses the one th that requires no self examination

829
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: on his part to blame the entire failure of their relationship.

830
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: We're removing contexts of years of when his father was

831
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: alive and he was a piece of shit. And I

832
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: don't know, I mean, I think that that is like

833
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 3: a pretty common thing that you see in breakups that

834
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: doesn't really know a gender in how it's perpetrated. But

835
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: I see men do it a lot.

836
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I really liked that inclusion of that scene

837
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: with him and Lila at the party toward the end

838
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: of the movie, because again, the only context we have

839
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: up until that point was she broke up with him

840
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: shortly after his father died. He calls her a heartless slut.

841
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: She I think was his only past relationship they were

842
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: together for five years. Other than that, we don't know anything.

843
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: And then we get her side of the story, and

844
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: I'm like fully on board with I'm like, yes, I

845
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: believe everything you're saying lie.

846
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 3: And she also acknowledges that it hurt that she chose

847
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: the moment to break up with him that she did,

848
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: but also that that doesn't mean that she was wrong

849
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: or needs to regret it, and like having that full

850
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: messiness acknowledged. And also it's so clear that like, yeah,

851
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 3: he couldn't love her for who she is, and when

852
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: she started to want things outside of their relationship, he

853
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: couldn't handle it.

854
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: He couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle that she was

855
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: also an aspiring novelist, Like he felt very threatened and

856
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: was making progress, right, he begrudgingly helped her in her career,

857
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: but again he just like didn't want her to be

858
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: more successful than him or anything like that. Yeah, she says, like,

859
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: you weren't curious about me. You just had this image

860
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: of who I was, and anything I did that contradicted

861
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: it you just ignored. And this is exactly what he

862
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: does to Ruby. And we're like, yeah, okay, mister pattern

863
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: of behavior, Oh.

864
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 3: God is ask Kathan.

865
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: I also think, I mean, part of the reason I

866
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 4: think the character works and that you allow yourself to

867
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 4: sort of be surprised or tricked or whatever. By the

868
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 4: movie is that, like Zoe seems empathetic to like writers

869
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 4: and this character as a writer. And I do think

870
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 4: it's from a few things. One, it's like our parents

871
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 4: are famously writers. She comes from a very famous all

872
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,959
Speaker 4: the way, all the ways down nepo baby. But also

873
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 4: like she is dealing with like how she is perceived

874
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 4: in Hollywood or whatever, Like she understands that she grew

875
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 4: up in Hollywood, so she knows different types of people.

876
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 4: And I do think there's a deep understanding of this

877
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 4: person's psychology that's not just like a sensitive misogynist. It's

878
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: just like a cartoon villain's like there you.

879
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 3: Ever heard that turn of phrase before? What a scary phrase, But.

880
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 4: It just like clearly she's like, oh, I know how

881
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: the wheels of this person's brain work to make them

882
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: the victim of all situations, and like how good they are.

883
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 4: It's almost like because these people are writers, their ability

884
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 4: to create the other person in relationships is like heightened.

885
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 4: And because the aracters were written as writers, it makes

886
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 4: sense as well. You're like, well, like it makes sense

887
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 4: that he would make up fake people in real relationships

888
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 4: and fake relationships. He's a writer. That's what he does,

889
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: and I think that allows it to not just be

890
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 4: you know, a black Mirror episode or whatever, where it's

891
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 4: like it's just an idea of a person and you

892
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 4: just project nothing. It's honest, Like Paul Dano is not

893
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 4: a blank vessel. He's like a very specifically written person.

894
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 4: She wrote it for him, and.

895
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: Also like cool with Paul Dano to like take that on,

896
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 3: and I think, like, do it really thoughtfully. I can't

897
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 3: imagine shooting that scene with someone I'd been in a

898
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: relationship with for five years. But then I can't imagine

899
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 3: being in a relationship for five years, so it's complicated. Yeah,

900
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: there are other parts of the second If you watch

901
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 3: this movie, unfortunately you do have to watch it again

902
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: soon after because it is just like a very rewarding rewatch.

903
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 3: I think that another element of his character that resonated

904
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 3: for me and felt familiar perhaps was that Calvin has

905
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 3: this very juvenile again, just like the amount of guardrails

906
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 3: that this guy has set up to resist any introspection

907
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 3: or self reflection. It's like the corn Mazon signs, Like

908
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 3: it's unbelievable how he's done this, and he has this

909
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 3: you know core belief that like women don't like him.

910
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 3: He also has a very clear idea of what constitutes

911
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: a bad guy and a bad partner, and he repeats

912
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 3: it over and over in a way that is like

913
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 3: it reminds me of like tropes we've talked about in

914
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: the past, Katling, where it's like patriarchy, the guy where

915
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 3: you're just like the most like he's like, kicks the

916
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,959
Speaker 3: door down, pulls someone's hair, and is like, I don't

917
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 3: think women should vote. And then any other man in

918
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 3: the room, because this guy has behaved so terribly, is

919
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: given like narrative impunity to act in more subtly misogynistic

920
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 3: ways because there is this blowhard and the way that

921
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 3: he describes I mean, the two things that stick out

922
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 3: to me is like the where he's imagining Ruby before

923
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: she crosses into the real world, where she's like, I

924
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: usually date guys that are kind of like shitty to me.

925
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: And then he says why would you date a guy

926
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: like that? Which is always what the guy who was

927
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 3: about to do that says immediately before he starts doing it.

928
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 3: Bone chilling interaction to watch. And then I think the

929
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: choices that he makes to flesh out her character is

930
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: also very telling of how he views himself to be

931
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 3: not like other guys, which is, yeah, we talked about

932
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 3: not like other girls all the time, but he clearly

933
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: thinks he is like different from all these other men.

934
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 3: And also, what was this book he wrote when he

935
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: was nineteen about? Because this writing is stinky. She's twenty

936
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 3: six from Dayton, Ohio. Her first crushes are Humphrey Bogart

937
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: and John Lennon, kicked out of high school for He

938
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 3: also projects a story of child sex abuse onto her

939
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 3: to romanticize her.

940
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: And make it like it was her fault.

941
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: There is like a romantic lark that she took when

942
00:50:59,120 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: she was a child.

943
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, he says this.

944
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 3: At one point, She's like, I'm a mess, and he's like,

945
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: I love that you're a mess. But he doesn't. He

946
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 3: like loves The parts of her messiness that he finds

947
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 3: charming are like waighs in for him to control her

948
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 3: of like she doesn't know how to pay her bills. Well,

949
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: that's the way for me to control her. Little things

950
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 3: that he enjoys doing. But when it comes to actually

951
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 3: being a person he does, I don't know. It's all planted,

952
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: really really thoughtfully.

953
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like he only likes the part of her

954
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 4: that's like, instead of kissing, she jumps into a pool

955
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 4: with her clothes.

956
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 3: Right, I'm shy, but.

957
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 4: That scene where she's the sort of character breakdown scene

958
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 4: does feel like literally a note for note five hundred

959
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 4: days a summer thing, because I do feel like that

960
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 4: movie uses dating an older man as a way of

961
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 4: showing like she's sort of like on particular, it's so

962
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 4: hard to understand like what those writers were thinking, where

963
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: it's clear Zoe was thinking, this is what those guys

964
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 4: think is like cool or whatever exactly.

965
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: It's like I know that Zoe Kauzanne rejects the calling

966
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,479
Speaker 1: of Ruby Sparks the character a manic pixie dream girl,

967
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: and I tend to agree, like this movie isn't putting

968
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: out that character as like, here's a story about a

969
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: manic pixie dream girl. It's an indictment of that trope.

970
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: But the character that he develops in this list of characteristics,

971
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: he's like, I think, rattling off to his therapist toward

972
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: the beginning, he has developed a manic pixie dream girl. Yeah,

973
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: and then when she turns out to not be that

974
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: and be a much more like nuanced and complex person.

975
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to interact or deal with that.

976
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: And then again, like Harry, his brother, who is somehow

977
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: like a genius in literary criticism, and his inconsistencies are

978
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what to make of them exactly, but

979
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: he's just.

980
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 3: Willing to give it a pass just because it's like,

981
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 3: I do feel like there's I mean, not so cartoonishly so,

982
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 3: but I do feel like there's people like that out

983
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 3: there who like, are essentially good partners in their actions,

984
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 3: but also talk shit about their partners in a way

985
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: that can be ugly.

986
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: Let me just list a few things he says, and

987
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: they're almost all in one conversation, but it's in the car, no,

988
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: when they're like sitting by the pool. Oh oh, okay,

989
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: write the manuscript. So he's, well, there's that. The car

990
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 1: is pret because that's all. So he says, like, okay,

991
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: who reads love stories women? And it was like, okay, reductive.

992
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: But then he's like, but women aren't going to want

993
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 1: to read this because quirky, messy women whose problems only

994
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: make them endearing are not real. He's like, women will

995
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 1: see right through this, and you've written a shitty character

996
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: and he says, like the honeymoon phase thing doesn't last.

997
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: Women are different up closes, he starts talking about his

998
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 1: own relationship, and then he says some weird things because

999
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: he's like, I love Susie, my wife, his wife, but

1000
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: she's a weirdo. For example, sometimes she's me as fuck

1001
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: for no reason. You're like, okay, sir, let's.

1002
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 3: Like recalibrate our definition of weirdo here because I'm not understanding.

1003
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: And also, is she mean as fuck or are you

1004
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: just a dipshit who's like not a great partner and

1005
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: she's calling you out for it? I don't know.

1006
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 4: I do think that line makes the most sense of

1007
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 4: like other things he says is too sophisticated, but that

1008
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 4: feels like actually his best way of being like both

1009
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 4: empathetic to his wife but also unable to understand. Yeah

1010
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 4: why right, So he's like, women are complicated, like my

1011
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 4: wife confuses me all the time, right, And you're like, well,

1012
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 4: at least he understands that they're not only projections, but

1013
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 4: like he should not hypothetically be sophisticated enough to be

1014
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 4: like and that's because women are three dimensional, you know,

1015
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 4: Like he's not like a media studies professor. Right, so

1016
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 4: it's like he's a sports agent of course, which you

1017
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 4: don't know that. But so that line I thought was

1018
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 4: like exactly, I think what I can magine that read

1019
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 4: a level.

1020
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 3: Of emotional intelligence they would be capable of.

1021
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 4: I also think part of the problem is there's so

1022
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 4: few characters in this movie. Yeah, that like ultimately characters

1023
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 4: have to carry weight beyond their roles because you're like,

1024
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 4: it's only like three actors.

1025
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's like little they're like, we have

1026
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: Antonio Banderas for thirty six hours have fun data. He's

1027
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 3: gonna make a chair, very magic mic of him to do.

1028
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, yeah's magic micing. But I do like

1029
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 3: his version of like a homemade better than chair better.

1030
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 3: But also it looks like a prop from the Blair

1031
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 3: Witch Project, though I don't know. Before we hop back,

1032
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 3: I just I wanted to take a moment for Susie

1033
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 3: because we are sort of talking about her. Yes, here's

1034
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 3: Susie Corner there felt to me like and speaking to

1035
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 3: yours just saying Jesse, like the fact that she just

1036
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 3: does not get a lot of screen time at all.

1037
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 3: I think she's talked about more than we actually see

1038
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 3: her talking, which to me kind of undercut. But what

1039
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 3: that's I think, like, really the main weakness of this

1040
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 3: movie for me is I wish that, But it depends

1041
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 3: on who you view to be the main character of

1042
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: this movie. I do wish that we got more moments

1043
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 3: with women. I think it would have been cool if

1044
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 3: we got more moments with Ruby and women, because I

1045
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 3: think that not to be gender prescriptive, but people who

1046
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 3: have been in bad relationships can smell it on you

1047
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 3: a little bit, and it would have been cool to

1048
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 3: see her have an interaction with someone who is like,

1049
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: things don't feel quite right. I think it would have

1050
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 3: been cool to give Ruby some sort of friend or

1051
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 3: ally to like help her tease out like I don't know.

1052
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 3: That undercuts the moment where she's completely shocked. But also

1053
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: no person she would meet in the world would be like,

1054
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: I know what's happening. Paul Dano writes down what you

1055
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 3: do and that's why you can speak French now, But

1056
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: just like someone for her to process that confusion would

1057
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 3: have been cool, and Susie would have been an interesting

1058
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 3: character to maybe be that person. But we don't know

1059
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 3: anything about her. We know that she's a weirdo and

1060
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: maybe she's mean, but also maybe she's not. We don't

1061
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 3: know enough about her to even get a read on

1062
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 3: what the reality of that would be. And then also

1063
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 3: she almost left him once. Hmm, I forgot about that part,

1064
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 3: which I think is a cool detail. But again, if

1065
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: you don't know the character is just like, well, she's

1066
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: just sort of like plot meat. This is kind of

1067
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: how she's treated.

1068
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: And she's I think the only person of color with

1069
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: any significant speaking lines. But again she's also not one

1070
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: of the least developed characters and yeah, not significant.

1071
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 4: Well it's like I guess alia. That's why I thought,

1072
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 4: like if I read the script and somehow had this

1073
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 4: ability to give Zoe a nome and Fleishman in Trouble

1074
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 4: did not exist already, but yet time how I knew it.

1075
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 4: It's like it'd be so useful if the third act

1076
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 4: switch perspective, because like now, it's like, what does a

1077
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 4: person with no memory of anything but a personality and

1078
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 4: a history, how do they become a person? That would

1079
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 4: be interesting, that's not the movie was trying to make

1080
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 4: a comment on people like Paul Dano or whatever. And

1081
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 4: I imagine also, who knows if the duty was like, well,

1082
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 4: got to follow the protagonist, which is mister man Paul Dano.

1083
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 4: Ruby Sparks is a manifestation for him to like grow up.

1084
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 4: It did feel like a very that time, where like

1085
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 4: that's the only plot a man could do, which is like,

1086
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 4: I mean, it's literally exactly what happened with five hundred

1087
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 4: days summer. Even though it is making fun of five

1088
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 4: hundred days a summer, the plot still follows that way, even

1089
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 4: beyond when it's like useful for us as the viewer, Yeah.

1090
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 3: I mean any sort of perspective shift, even if it

1091
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 3: doesn't do the hard fleshman is in trouble thing. To

1092
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: see Ruby in a scene without Calvin, I think would

1093
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 3: have been useful, and I don't think would have necessarily

1094
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 3: challenged the reality of the movie we're in already.

1095
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,439
Speaker 4: Does she have a scene where she talks to his mom?

1096
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: I can't remember, not really one on one, I don't

1097
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: say sure, ooh, now I need to watch the third time.

1098
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that we outside of when she's like

1099
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 3: calling him from a bar, I don't know that we

1100
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 3: ever see a scene where they're not together, because she

1101
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 3: I think recaps a conversation she had with his mom

1102
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 3: to him. I'm pretty sure that that's how we find

1103
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: out about.

1104
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 4: That, because can you imagine that scene, which would in

1105
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 4: Solva Bechdel problem but like still would be like she

1106
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 4: goes like look my boys, blah blah blah, you know,

1107
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 4: like something. You can imagine that scene where like she

1108
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 4: knows that both her sons have these sort of like

1109
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 4: problems with women, but like something, something, something, at least

1110
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 4: that would be like, what is Annette Benning's perspective on

1111
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 4: any of these things happening other than she has a

1112
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 4: nice plant and like it's cool to be married to

1113
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 4: Antonio Benderis, whose character's name is mort not remember.

1114
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 3: Yeah that, Like again, I really really like Zoeka Is

1115
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 3: in I think she's like some of our s tier nepotism,

1116
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 3: I really do, but I do like I thought the

1117
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 3: mom character again kind of like a missed opportunity and

1118
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: felt very like I've seen this character a million times,

1119
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 3: like Polo mom to Woo Woo mom, unless that's like

1120
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 3: her being This is a clear rom com stock character

1121
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 3: that we've seen before, so I don't know, I'd be curious,

1122
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 3: like what the reasoning was. I understand that like on

1123
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 3: the rewatch Calvin's reaction to his own mother is a

1124
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 3: huge red flag and very very self involved, where he

1125
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 3: clearly is unwilling to accept a version of his mother

1126
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 3: that is not comforting and familiar to him, which is

1127
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 3: how he treats women in general. I think it's interesting

1128
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 3: that there is I don't really know what the timeline is,

1129
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 3: but there is like an undercurrent of like Calvin very

1130
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 3: likely has not processed grieving for his father and is

1131
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 3: projecting that onto his mom, certainly more so than his brother,

1132
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 3: who he sees all the time. It seems like he

1133
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 3: avoids his mom and judges her for being in love again.

1134
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 3: And I think we're led to believe embracing a truer

1135
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 3: version of herself. Yeah, but like I wish that they

1136
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 3: used her more.

1137
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 4: It's interesting because now that you talk about it from

1138
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 4: the respective of grief, right, So he's like essentially, as

1139
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 4: we said, like he's nineteen and never stays nineteen, and

1140
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 4: then like he responds like a kids dad died, and

1141
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 4: then he resents people who respond like a grown up

1142
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 4: whose partner died or whatever. And it's like that scene

1143
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 4: with him and the bunny or whatever in the therapist's

1144
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 4: office where he's like, not only does he need a

1145
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 4: bunny to comfort him or whatever? He then is like

1146
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 4: jealous that maybe someone else, right, and that is like

1147
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 4: how does sort of his grief and need to be

1148
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 4: comfort and his possessative interact with each other. And you

1149
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 4: see it all from that scene, right, you just wouldn't

1150
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 4: think of it. Right at that scene, You're like, Oh,

1151
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 4: he's a quirky boy and he's gonna beet a quirky girl,

1152
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 4: and this is gonna be like and there is a

1153
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 4: thing where his characters only referred to as a boy,

1154
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 4: like they're all girls and boys, so there is something

1155
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 4: where like, oh, of course a boy wants a girl, right,

1156
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 4: Like follow.

1157
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: It up on when Christmasina is like, you haven't written

1158
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 3: a woman, You've written a girl. Kind of clarifies maybe

1159
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 3: what that means, even though I'm like justice for girls.

1160
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, like I'm starting to I'm like, is this

1161
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 3: the most genius movie of all time? Because I also

1162
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 3: think you see early indicates of the type of person

1163
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 3: he is in the way that he treats his dog,

1164
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 3: where first of all, he I think it's no mistake

1165
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 3: that he later makes Ruby act like his dog, but

1166
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: it's a really early conversation between him and his therapist

1167
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 3: that seems kind of innocuous, but it's like he wants

1168
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 3: to have a dog because he wants to have fun

1169
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 3: with his dog. But every time we see that he

1170
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 3: needs to take care of his dog, he's annoyed. He

1171
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 3: doesn't want to do it. He wants to offfload the

1172
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 3: difficult part of having a dog to someone else, and

1173
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 3: that's really depressing because it's like he views women as

1174
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 3: dogs and that he also doesn't want to care to

1175
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 3: the difficult parts of a human relationship.

1176
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: And he wanted the dog so that there would be

1177
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: this kind of built in excuse for people to stop

1178
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: and pet the dog, and then he'd meet people, because

1179
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 1: he seems to struggle meeting with people and connecting with people,

1180
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: but he's never like looked into why that is.

1181
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 3: Or they're like, I can't criticize someone for getting a

1182
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 3: pet to feel more connected to the world.

1183
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: No, I'm not criticizing, but.

1184
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 3: Totally like it's like another indication of like he will

1185
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 3: do backflips to avoid self reflection.

1186
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 4: You know what's an interesting example like the Alia Shotcat scene,

1187
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 4: which is so he's at first you're like he's using

1188
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 4: this person. But even when she's like we're gonna have sex,

1189
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 4: he's like he spits out a drink, like it's almost like, oh, no,

1190
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 4: I was using you just for this one thing of

1191
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 4: like getting a bearings of reality. I don't I'm not

1192
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 4: even using you in the way you think I'm trying

1193
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 4: to use you. And he can't even control he doesn't

1194
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 4: even like that, and but that also then reaffirms he

1195
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 4: does that. He goes, I'm a good guy. I'm just

1196
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 4: using this human being as a way of getting a

1197
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 4: grip with reality. I'm not using her to have sex.

1198
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 4: That's like what bad guys do. And you're like, but

1199
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 4: she wants to have sex, he.

1200
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 3: Doesn't get it. Yeah, And it's like, by his own

1201
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 3: description of women up to this point, we know that

1202
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 3: he is judging her severely for wanting to have sex

1203
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 3: with him in spite of not knowing him very well,

1204
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 3: which is like she clearly doesn't give a shit, but

1205
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 3: it's like he's judging her for that, and yeah, he

1206
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 3: says to her, he's like, I don't want that. Like

1207
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 3: he basically says like, I'm not using you for anything,

1208
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 3: And I think he believes that scary, bone chilling.

1209
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly a conversation that I felt really like, damn,

1210
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: this is well written, and this is very emblematic of

1211
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: the type of emotional abuse that this type of guy

1212
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: inflicts on people. Is the scene right after they've returned

1213
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: from that party where she got in the pool and

1214
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: she says, you have all these rules and you don't

1215
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 1: tell me what they are until I've broken one, and

1216
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 1: then you get to be disappointed in me. And he

1217
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: says like, here are my rules. Don't fuck other men

1218
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: and don't let them think about fucking you. And she's like, okay,

1219
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: so what now I'm responsible for what other people are thinking?

1220
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, when you act a certain way,

1221
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 1: it leads people on. When you take off your clothes

1222
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: at a party, it makes people think you're a slut.

1223
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: And I'd prefer if you didn't do that. Is that

1224
01:04:59,120 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: clear enough?

1225
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 3: Were you?

1226
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: And it's just like Wow, everything about how he is

1227
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: in a relationship, his controlling, this, his possessiveness, his condescension,

1228
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: it's like all just right there on display in a

1229
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: way that felt like very authentic to how that type

1230
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: of abuse plays out.

1231
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 3: And I was just like, damn, yeah, well.

1232
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 4: It's also like how a guy like that uses quirkiness

1233
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 4: as like a sort of shield or whatever, which is

1234
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 4: like by sort of like being lighthearted, he doesn't have

1235
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 4: to like actually reveal what he's actually thinking the entire time, right,

1236
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 4: So it's like hypothetically this entire time he's mad at

1237
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 4: her or resents her, or it is like he creates her,

1238
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 4: and he's like you dressed. You can imagine him being

1239
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 4: like you dressed like a slud even though he described

1240
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 4: how I didn't even think of that.

1241
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1242
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 4: But then he's like finally where he's like pushed, You're like, oh,

1243
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 4: you've been all of these thoughts have been locked and loaded.

1244
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 4: And a worse movie would like somewhat like Frankenstein. It right,

1245
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 4: it's like you're my creation. But because the movie is

1246
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 4: like ridden more in defense of Frankenstein, Conder's just acting

1247
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 4: as Frankenstein would frank Stein's monster, not frank Stein and

1248
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 4: doctor Frankstein. I would just be so fascinated to have

1249
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 4: a brain of a person who was really on board

1250
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 4: with Paul Daniel's characters in the entire time, and then

1251
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 4: that happens, and does that person go, yes, she is wrong,

1252
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 4: she shouldn't sleep with that guy where that scene seems

1253
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 4: to be like, this is why a character would do this,

1254
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 4: because it's almost like, I think, what's interesting about this movie.

1255
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 4: It's like it's about human relationships, but it's also like

1256
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 4: a media critique, right, but it doesn't feel just like

1257
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 4: a media critique, and I think it all it works

1258
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 4: into all of those levels that're just sort of like, oh,

1259
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 4: what is it saying about how movies are structures and

1260
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 4: how that feeds into how people meant specifically think how

1261
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 4: gender roles are supposed to play out, right, It's like

1262
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 4: the idea of roles. It's like on multiple levels, which

1263
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 4: I think is why she's so smart and good and

1264
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 4: also built in is like I'm going to write really big,

1265
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 4: crazy parts for me and my partner to like go.

1266
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 3: Off, which is like very very cool, which.

1267
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 4: Is notable because like this is a huge breakthrough for

1268
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 4: her as an actress. Like Paul had been in stuff

1269
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 4: because he was a little missunshine, but she's like, yeah,

1270
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 4: there would be like he was a big actor and

1271
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 4: she was just sort of like bouncing around doing theater

1272
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,439
Speaker 4: and then does this and again writes a movie way later,

1273
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 4: but like then becomes much more notable as an actress,

1274
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 4: oddly enough, almost exclusively playing romantic leads in like lighthearted

1275
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 4: indie comedies. But it also works on sort of the

1276
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 4: basic level of like I want to showcase for us

1277
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 4: to show like I'm also not just what Hollywood thinks

1278
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 4: I am when they picture me.

1279
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I'm like excited to see I mean, i

1280
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 3: haven't seen more from her since, but like I'm excited

1281
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 3: to just keep seeing more from her because she's I

1282
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 3: mean that sort of speaks to the last thing I

1283
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 3: wanted to just like touch on she sort of talked

1284
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 3: about earlier, but just that, Like, this movie just feels

1285
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 3: very ahead of its time in a way I wasn't expecting.

1286
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 3: I watched back some of the original press tour of

1287
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 3: this and it's a lot of Zoe and Paul and

1288
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:10,919
Speaker 3: Paul being asked more questions and Paul being asked There

1289
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 3: was one just like subtle stuff that like watching it

1290
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,480
Speaker 3: ten years later in like three sixtyp you're like, ooh,

1291
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 3: do not talk to my friend that way. There's either

1292
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 3: just like switching the direction to talk to Paul Dano

1293
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 3: about something when they're there, to talk about the movie

1294
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 3: that she wrote, and start in and then also just

1295
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 3: like little stuff that like, oh, I think this may

1296
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 3: have happened to me before, where it's like a scene

1297
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 3: that Zoe Kazan has written, and there she's asked more

1298
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 3: than once, like how much improv happened in that scene,

1299
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:42,799
Speaker 3: as if it was unbelievable that she could have written

1300
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,719
Speaker 3: a well constructed scene. It just made my blood boil.

1301
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 4: She went to Yale for playwright.

1302
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 3: Like she wrote it, Dude, it doesn't sound improvise whatsoever.

1303
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 3: And then I just wanted to share the lead on

1304
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 3: this glowing New York Times review of this movie from

1305
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 3: twenty twelve, it's the critics pick by Stephen Holden, who

1306
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 3: hasn't entertained a fantasy of romantic omnipotence in which a

1307
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 3: dream partner complies with your every wish in the language

1308
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 3: of my fair lady. Oh, wouldn't it be loverly? But wait?

1309
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 3: Would unquestioning obedience really answer your deepest longings? Or would

1310
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 3: it rob you of the thrill of the chase? Might

1311
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 3: playing puppet master awaken inner demons that drive you to

1312
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 3: behave monstrously? Ruby Sparks is an ingenious and delightful variation

1313
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 3: on the Pygmalion myth toy is whimsically with these questions.

1314
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 3: As the initially perfect relationship between an author and has

1315
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 3: sprung to life, creation goes through changes. That's how a

1316
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 3: positive review of this movie would go.

1317
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,600
Speaker 1: In twenty twelve.

1318
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 3: Ten years ago.

1319
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: Brudal Well, I'll contrast that with a few quotes from

1320
01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: Zoe Kazan just to kind of like contextualize where she

1321
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 1: coming from and like how the development of this movie

1322
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,439
Speaker 1: went and where the idea came from. I guess she

1323
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: was inspired because she was like going home one night

1324
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: and saw a discarded mannequin that she thought was a body,

1325
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,799
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh no, and then she realized

1326
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 1: it was a mannequin. But she's like, what if, like

1327
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: there was this like discard like just like a I

1328
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: don't even know actually how I don't know how that

1329
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 1: turned into this idea. But she was also inspired by

1330
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: the myth of Pigmalion, and then she started writing a

1331
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: chunk of the script and then she realized the thing

1332
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 1: that she wanted to explore with this is the kind

1333
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: of idea of love versus the actuality of it. And

1334
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 1: she has a few quotes that I want to share

1335
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 1: I'll paraphrase this first part where she describes how you

1336
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: know her mom is a feminist and she was raised

1337
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 1: with feminist thinking, and her parents had a kind of

1338
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 1: non traditional relationship where traditional gender roles weren't that observed,

1339
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: and she says, quote, but with my first relationships, I've

1340
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: found myself being expected to behave in an almost subservient way.

1341
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: It was shocking. I couldn't believe how traditional the roles

1342
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: are for so many people. My girlfriends would sometimes say

1343
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: to me, God, you're so lucky, he loves you so much,

1344
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: and I would think to myself, I'm so lonely. I

1345
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 1: feel like a doll unquote. And I feel like that

1346
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 1: informs like a lot of what this story is about.

1347
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 1: She also says, quote, I haven't seen a lot of

1348
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: things from that perspective, that idea of being gazed at,

1349
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: but never seen that moment when you think I am

1350
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: so strong and so brave inside and you're treating me

1351
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: like a baby. So I wanted to explore that in

1352
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 1: a way that wasn't unkind or alienating for men, because

1353
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 1: I love men unquote, and maybe like that almost makes

1354
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:08,680
Speaker 1: men are awesome. She says, huge move for Jesse. And

1355
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: it also makes me wonder like was that a studio

1356
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 1: note at the end, or is she saying like men

1357
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 1: do reserve redemption sometimes I don't know, it's we don't

1358
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 1: know either way.

1359
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 3: I would just be interested to hear her talk about

1360
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 3: this movie. Now.

1361
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the final thing I want to share from her

1362
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 1: is she says, quote, I'm very girly. I've been girly

1363
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 1: since day one, but being girly led to relationships where

1364
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 1: the guy has a very strong idea of me. But

1365
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: it's an idea that it's only appropriate for adult. Just

1366
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 1: because I'm girly doesn't mean I'm a lost little girl.

1367
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 1: I hate that you're either a little lost girl, or

1368
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: you're a bitch who doesn't need men, or you're a

1369
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 1: nurturing motherly type. I have all of those things inside me.

1370
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: Who doesn't unquote, And so just like this collection of

1371
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: quotes is I think like very informative for like what

1372
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 1: her and just were with this movie. And we talk

1373
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 1: about this a lot, especially that last quote as far

1374
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 1: as like, oh, hyper femininity has been kind of criticized

1375
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: by many different types of people, but including feminists, because

1376
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, you're just like succumbing to this

1377
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: expectation of what a woman.

1378
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 3: Would be guilty of it early in the show.

1379
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,320
Speaker 1: I've definitely done it throughout my life. Yeah, and I

1380
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: like this. She's like, no, like just because I'm this

1381
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: way doesn't mean that I'm not also other things and

1382
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: that I'm not complicated and that I am not a feminist.

1383
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just I liked those quotes and I

1384
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 1: liked where she was coming from.

1385
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was around these times. There was like I

1386
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 4: don't remember when New Girl started, but I feel like

1387
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 4: New Girl was partly also like the debate about like

1388
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 4: the idea of Zoe Deschanel, because like people were like

1389
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 4: making fun of like hello Giggles type people people were yeah,

1390
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 4: and that was so she was like on the front

1391
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 4: line of like quirky people can also have depth or whatever.

1392
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 4: Now like that it's not like the number one thing

1393
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 4: this movie is about, but it is somewhat defense of like,

1394
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:06,640
Speaker 4: you know, quirky people are complicated. They just sort of

1395
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 4: manifest those complications with different ways.

1396
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: But on the Calvin character, as he's like listing off

1397
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,679
Speaker 1: the traits of the Ruby Sparks character, he says something

1398
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: like she's complicated and that's what I like about her. Well,

1399
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: it's first of all, you did not develop her to

1400
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: be complicated. She just became complicated because she materialized as

1401
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: a human in the world. And secondly, you don't like

1402
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,520
Speaker 1: that about her. You do not like this she's complicated.

1403
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:34,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just like that. She's like a Zoeka's hand type.

1404
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, like character actors who appear in round cons a lot.

1405
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 3: She's been typed a lot over the years too. And

1406
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:45,720
Speaker 3: I think it is interesting to like look at hers

1407
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 3: and Paul Dano's career alongside each other because they've been

1408
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 3: together for so long, and it's like they're both tremendously

1409
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 3: talented actors, and it's like he easily gets more opportunities

1410
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 3: to show range and to try shit out, and he's

1411
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 3: still a type Like you're not casting Paul Dano for

1412
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 3: certain kinds of roles.

1413
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: But like he's not the Terminator, but he is.

1414
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 3: The Riddler, right, And it's like Zoe Kzan doesn't get

1415
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 3: those kinds of opportunity or at least that I know of.

1416
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 4: No, she gets to play a journalist in a movie, right,

1417
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 4: It's like she's she said, and like it's her and

1418
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 4: Carrie Mulligan which are both Zoe kzan Cary Mulligan types,

1419
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 4: and it's the only reason they get to both be

1420
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 4: in a movie. It's because it's about two journalists. Like,

1421
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 4: she doesn't get to play the villain in a Batman movie,

1422
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 4: which would be like imagine she played Poison Ivy. It's

1423
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 4: the weirdest take on that characters be cool.

1424
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:37,919
Speaker 3: And it's interesting because it seems like she's like interacting

1425
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:40,759
Speaker 3: with these ideas ten years before it you know, continues

1426
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 3: to happen.

1427
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I imagined someone informed by going on auditions

1428
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 4: and you know, it's like quirky person types and the

1429
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 4: and going into auditions and everyone is like a different

1430
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,640
Speaker 4: version of regards of how manic they are Pixie in

1431
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 4: some capacity.

1432
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I was just distracted by my thought of,

1433
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, who does get to be a Batman villain,

1434
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:03,120
Speaker 1: Zoe Kravit.

1435
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,560
Speaker 3: There can only be one nepotism Zoe in the Batman universe,

1436
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 3: Zoe k Yeah. Oh wow wow Yeah continues. Does this

1437
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:16,519
Speaker 3: movie pass the Maxels test? I don't think it does.

1438
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 3: I don't think it does. I don't think so. That's

1439
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 3: a bummer. Yeah, I could see that being a creative

1440
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 3: choice because I would be really surprised if Zoe Xan

1441
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 3: was not aware of this metric, just based on what

1442
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:30,600
Speaker 3: I know about her. Maybe that's not true, but I

1443
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 3: do think that it would probably be true. But I

1444
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 3: don't think that the movie. I don't know. I still

1445
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 3: think it's a fantastic movie that has a lot to

1446
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 3: say about Jinda, But I don't think that the movie

1447
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 3: would be harmed by and I think in some ways

1448
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 3: in my brain version of this movie, it could be

1449
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 3: helped along in an interesting way by giving Zoe a

1450
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 3: woman in the real world to have some sort of

1451
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 3: like or just watch Zoe observe other people's relationships and

1452
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 3: talked to someone about it. Like it just feels like

1453
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 3: because we do see her being active as she gains

1454
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:09,800
Speaker 3: autonomy without even realizing that that's what's happening. But it

1455
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 3: would have been cool to see her talk to people

1456
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,760
Speaker 3: instead of just reacting to Calvin. So I feel like

1457
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 3: this would be stronger if she talked to more women.

1458
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 1: There could be even be a scene where like she

1459
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 1: either becomes friends with Susie or has like a girlfriend

1460
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:28,040
Speaker 1: from her acting class or something like that, and they

1461
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:32,600
Speaker 1: talk about Calvin's shitty behavior.

1462
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 3: And where she sees a woman being treated worse than

1463
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:36,680
Speaker 3: she is and like how does she feel about that?

1464
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: Or like right, right, right, And then if Ruby calls

1465
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:43,680
Speaker 1: him out on his behavior, then he would probably just

1466
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 1: write another sentence on his manuscript of like Ruby has

1467
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: an intense distrust of other women because women are petty

1468
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: or something like that.

1469
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, intentionally keeping her from other women would have been

1470
01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 3: an interesting choice.

1471
01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it.

1472
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 4: Seems like because both like intentionally the movie was like

1473
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 4: I have to follow the beats of male protagonist hero movie,

1474
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 4: even if he're subverting it. Yeah, right, I think, which

1475
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 4: I talked about last time, which is like sometimes if

1476
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 4: you do the strictest version of like Hero's Journey, it's like, well,

1477
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 4: there's no room for anyone else. But also I imagine

1478
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 4: it's also, as we said, there's so little cast, there's

1479
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 4: so few speaking roles. That's why it was like it

1480
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 4: has to be the mother because there's only so much

1481
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:24,960
Speaker 4: budget for her, Like all the people in her class

1482
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 4: have to be extra. She couldn't be like not some

1483
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 4: good painting, right, we can't even see her painting class.

1484
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 3: No, we don't know if she's any good, which does

1485
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 3: feel like a creative twice. I don't think he cares.

1486
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 3: It's not like her paintings are hanging up, which also

1487
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 3: is like, yeah, he just doesn't give it. He just

1488
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 3: wants her to do a romantic sounding thing. He doesn't

1489
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 3: want to look at it.

1490
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,760
Speaker 4: No, he prefers that she's good at cooking, right.

1491
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: Right, although I think we see some of her illustrations

1492
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: and paintings like in the bedroom.

1493
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah it's paintings of him, right.

1494
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's literally paintings of him, yes, yeah, but again

1495
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,879
Speaker 1: he wrote her that way or something. I don't know anyway,

1496
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 1: Nipple Skill our scale of zero to find the rector

1497
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: Jesse based how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens,

1498
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna give this a three and a half.

1499
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm docking it for the ending, which is a little

1500
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 1: too sugary and Hollywood e and maybe it was a

1501
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: studio note or not, We're not sure. But basically, the

1502
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 1: Calvin character gets a redemption that I don't think he

1503
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: has earned at this point, and I don't like that

1504
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,680
Speaker 1: he's like presented with what seems to be an opportunity

1505
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,960
Speaker 1: to like reconnect with her and like have a second chance.

1506
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: And again I don't not to say that people don't

1507
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: deserve a redemption. It's a case by case scenario. But

1508
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 1: this person doesn't this person at this time, this character

1509
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 1: does not because he has not earned it at this time.

1510
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,800
Speaker 1: So I did not like how the movie concludes. But

1511
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: everything up until that point, for the most part, I thought,

1512
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 1: was like a really interesting characterization of men's expectations of

1513
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: like what a hetero romance with a woman should be

1514
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 1: or not, you know, hashtag not all men, but like

1515
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 1: a very kind of in general or like, you know,

1516
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 1: under patriarchy. This is how a lot of men feel

1517
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: and how they operate and how they behave and what

1518
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 1: their conduct is like in these types of relationships, and

1519
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:34,680
Speaker 1: it still happens. We're not past it yet. So I

1520
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: thought it was a really interesting exploration of all of that.

1521
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,639
Speaker 1: But also it's a very such a white movie, and

1522
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 1: it's like we're in Los Angeles and what do we why? Anyway,

1523
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:51,719
Speaker 1: three and a half nipples, maybe even four, I'm not sure.

1524
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: Let's go three point seventy five, and I'll give one

1525
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,599
Speaker 1: to Zoe Kazan. I'll give one to the actor who

1526
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 1: plays Susie, which is Tony Trucks. I will give one

1527
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:07,639
Speaker 1: to Annette Benning, and I'll give my three quarters nipple

1528
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: to Scottie the Dog and specifically the piss on male

1529
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,759
Speaker 1: Calvin's bed.

1530
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 3: I had a similar fruitless battle between three point five

1531
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,719
Speaker 3: and four, so I'll do the same three point seventy five.

1532
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 3: I think that this movie is pretty fucking amazing. I

1533
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:30,439
Speaker 3: do appreciate and want to shout out the fact that

1534
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 3: it is co directed by a woman, Valerie Ferris of

1535
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,560
Speaker 3: Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Ferris who previously did Little Miss Sunshine.

1536
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:40,519
Speaker 3: It is written by Zoe exam Like. I think it's

1537
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 3: very very rare, even in this subgenre of like good

1538
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 3: movies that address this trope, to have a woman involved

1539
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 3: at the highest level, which is interesting, and so I'm

1540
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:54,800
Speaker 3: actually giving it four because I just changed my mind.

1541
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,639
Speaker 3: I do, however, think that like this entire subgenre also

1542
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 3: does take place in upper class white families with I

1543
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 3: don't think any exception which does feel worth examining. Yes,

1544
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 3: especially because you're saying we're in LA like, it's ridiculous

1545
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:14,679
Speaker 3: to have Antonio banderaz In essentially a glorified cameo role

1546
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:19,080
Speaker 3: alias katt In essentially a glorified cameo role and Susie

1547
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:24,720
Speaker 3: truly not involved in any meaningful way, so I am

1548
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 3: critical of that. I don't like the ending, obviously, but

1549
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 3: the majority of the movie. I think this movie is

1550
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:31,719
Speaker 3: so ahead of its time. I think is really good

1551
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 3: and it made me want to watch more. Zoe exam

1552
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,080
Speaker 3: by ZOEA Kasan because I don't want to watch she

1553
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:43,640
Speaker 3: said again, unfortunately, not because I'm a misogynist, because it

1554
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 3: was boring and I do want all the president's men

1555
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 3: with women journalists. But that was not it. And that's

1556
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:52,559
Speaker 3: the rude thing I'm saying at the end.

1557
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 1: For no reason, Jamie. I can't believe that you, my creation,

1558
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: would say something like that. So I type something you

1559
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 1: said on my typewriter, the.

1560
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 3: Best reporting of our time, and it was like being

1561
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 3: a mother is hard, and you're like, oh my god. Anyways,

1562
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 3: we're talking about the movie Ruby Sparks, which I'm giving

1563
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 3: four nipples to right now. I am giving one to Susie,

1564
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 3: I'm giving one to Ruby Sparks herself, I'm giving one

1565
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 3: to Alias Chacott, and I am giving one to you.

1566
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:27,720
Speaker 3: Think I'm gonna give it to Emmanette Benning, I'm not.

1567
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 3: I'm giving it to Christmasina because I had a great

1568
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 3: time watching them.

1569
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:31,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

1570
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, a guy who likes sports and can read talk

1571
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:38,719
Speaker 3: about there's there's a lot being subverted in this movie.

1572
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm kidding. Uh huh, I'm going to a hockey game tomorrow.

1573
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 1: Wow incredible, Jesse, what say you?

1574
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 4: I will also give it four nipples. I have a

1575
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,640
Speaker 4: bad memory, but I've decided to retcon my brain to

1576
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 4: be like this movie changed my life and maybe because

1577
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 4: the flaws in my own ways, like how I approach relationships.

1578
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:04,839
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's true, but it seems around

1579
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 4: the time where I was like starting to get better

1580
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 4: at understanding people or people or whatever. Like I also think,

1581
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 4: you know, like I never said friend zone, probably, but

1582
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 4: I maybe did, you know, Like I was raised in

1583
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 4: this culture and I had to learn, and I think

1584
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 4: this movie was formative and like helping. I think Five

1585
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:26,920
Speaker 4: Hundred Days of Summer is somewhat also about how a

1586
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 4: certain type of guy creates an idea of a woman

1587
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 4: and then realizes like, oh, maybe I'm creating idea. I

1588
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:35,640
Speaker 4: don't love her, I love the idea of where, but

1589
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,880
Speaker 4: kind of really lets that person off the hook. And

1590
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 4: this movie, like really makes you sit with how grotesque

1591
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 4: it can look. And like that scene where it's that

1592
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 4: scene that we talked about being really tough to watch,

1593
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:49,600
Speaker 4: like forces you to like confront that like this is

1594
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:51,160
Speaker 4: the worst it possible can be. And I think that's

1595
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 4: really impressive. But as we said, it's like it is

1596
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 4: a narrow world. So and then I will give these

1597
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 4: nipples too. One for Zoe Kazan the writer. One for

1598
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:06,040
Speaker 4: Zoe Kazan the actress because while doing the script, she

1599
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 4: also found a way to show all different types of

1600
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,720
Speaker 4: moves she can do and like that's the benefit of

1601
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 4: Nepo Baby, and he's like, well, I'm gonna write this movie,

1602
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 4: I must have like showcased different things.

1603
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 3: Speaks French, yeah yeah, which is a very Kazan thing

1604
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 3: to do.

1605
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:23,479
Speaker 4: One for Paul Dano for reading the script being like, yeah,

1606
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:24,680
Speaker 4: we should do this, me and you.

1607
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:26,799
Speaker 3: What's the worst that could happen?

1608
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:29,719
Speaker 1: They're still together as far as like, oh.

1609
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 3: They got two kids.

1610
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 4: I see Paul Dano around with.

1611
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 3: One of Melissa Lozada will have a multiple time guests

1612
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:37,719
Speaker 3: of the show. I met him at a coffee shop

1613
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 3: once and had a full on It wasn't a romcom moment,

1614
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 3: but he was just like, what book are you reading?

1615
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:44,719
Speaker 3: And She's like, and I thought I was gonna pass out.

1616
01:25:46,280 --> 01:25:48,759
Speaker 4: The first time I talked to Zoe, we talked about books.

1617
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:49,959
Speaker 4: I can't remember why.

1618
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 1: A couple who reads books are so pervasive, so important.

1619
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:01,639
Speaker 4: They are real Brooklyn parents and actors through and through.

1620
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 4: And then I have one more nipple and it will

1621
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:10,680
Speaker 4: go to Valerie Ferris and Jonathan Dayton for remind me

1622
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 4: what twenty twelve was like and having a soundtrack that

1623
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 4: was not souf fun Stevens but sounded like the mood

1624
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:19,160
Speaker 4: board was like, well soup on Stevens like, and I

1625
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 4: missed that. So kudos to them for this being the

1626
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:25,799
Speaker 4: first project they did after that movie.

1627
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:29,840
Speaker 1: Nice Jesse, thank you so much for joining us. Thank

1628
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 1: us about your book before you go.

1629
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:33,800
Speaker 3: Geez oh.

1630
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 4: Books are so important.

1631
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:38,759
Speaker 3: We just important. And Zoe Kazan read them.

1632
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 4: If I see them on the street, I gotta give

1633
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 4: him a copy. The book is called Comedy Book. It's

1634
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:46,280
Speaker 4: a book about comedy functions as an art form and

1635
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 4: as part of our culture. It's no it's like a heady,

1636
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:56,760
Speaker 4: big book about the last forty years or so of

1637
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:01,120
Speaker 4: comedy most related to our topic of conversation is I

1638
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 4: talk about context in satire and is it better for

1639
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:08,880
Speaker 4: satire to be really heavy handed allah Black Mirror or

1640
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 4: for it to be something like this where people might

1641
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:14,640
Speaker 4: get confused. I don't pick a side, but it's an

1642
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 4: easter egg. I ultimately would prefer something like this then

1643
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:21,519
Speaker 4: to Black Mirror. Yeah, and it's a bookstores. I'm doing

1644
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,759
Speaker 4: comedy shows for it. One in New York on November seventh,

1645
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:29,800
Speaker 4: one in LA on November thirteenth. Go to those please.

1646
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 3: It's a wonderful book. I'm like, I'm enjoying it so much.

1647
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 3: It's been my Sunday book. It's been keeping me company. Yes.

1648
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 1: Is there anything social media as you'd like to?

1649
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 4: Oh my name on all of them. I'm going to

1650
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 4: leave or x after the book comes out, but until then,

1651
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 4: if this is before that, I'm so on Twitter, but

1652
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 4: not Instagram's where I use just to promote things cool

1653
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:55,600
Speaker 4: and post Simpson's screenshots.

1654
01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:02,200
Speaker 1: That's work that's important, and you follow us also mostly

1655
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram. At Bechdel Cast, you can subscribe to our

1656
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:10,479
Speaker 1: Patreon at patreon dot com, slash Bechdel Cast and become

1657
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 1: a matron where We do two bonus episodes every month,

1658
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 1: plus access to the back catalog of around one hundred

1659
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: and fifty bonus episodes, all for five dollars a month.

1660
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 3: If you want more episodes on our Matreon about someone

1661
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:29,080
Speaker 3: being controlled, we did three episodes about Pinocchio so that

1662
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 3: you can you can go check that out. You can

1663
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 3: get our mergencypublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, and

1664
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 3: with that, let's go to a park and meet all

1665
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 3: over and groundhog Day the worst relationship ever.

1666
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:47,240
Speaker 1: Okay, bye bye bye by