Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four, p. Fifty of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. Reproductive health is
Speaker 1: often discussed in terms of our physical bodies, but what
Speaker 1: about our mental and emotional will being across the reproductive
Speaker 1: black span. In today's conversation, I'm joined by doctor Mimi Sanders,
Speaker 1: a board certified psychiatrist specializing in reproductive psychiatry, to help
Speaker 1: us better understand the unique mental health needs that can
Speaker 1: show up during menstruation, pregnancy, postpartum fertility challenges, pregnancy laws,
Speaker 1: and menopause. We explore what reproductive psychiatry is, why it's
Speaker 1: especially important for Black women, how mood and anxiety disorders
Speaker 1: can show up during major reproductive transitions, and what it
Speaker 1: looks like to advocate for yourself when navigating mental health
Speaker 1: care during these seasons. Doctor Sanders also breaks down common
Speaker 1: myths about medication during pregnancy and postpartum, and shares what supportive,
Speaker 1: culturally responsive care should look like. If something resonates with
Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join
Speaker 1: us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode.
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy forro Blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today, doctor Vivie.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, you had such a unique career journey thus
Speaker 1: for so tell us about your career as a psychiatrist
Speaker 1: and on reality television, And I think this is always
Speaker 1: interesting for the sisters in the community who may be
Speaker 1: exploring medicine. How did you choose psychiatry as a career path?
Speaker 2: Yes, very unique. I often tell myself, Hey, You never
Speaker 2: know what is going to be around the corner, so
Speaker 2: just be prepared to pivot. I'm originally from Alabama. I
Speaker 2: went to undergrads at Tennessee State University, and at that
Speaker 2: time I wanted to be a pharmacist and I was
Speaker 2: doing like my chemistry and all the prerecs. But then
Speaker 2: I discovered, hey, I you know, I like kind of
Speaker 2: medicine as well. What does that look like? And I
Speaker 2: entered into like a program after undergrad and it was
Speaker 2: for just those who were just wanting to do more
Speaker 2: medicine but not necessarily had really fully necessarily committed, but
Speaker 2: I want to explore, and so I entered into this
Speaker 2: program during the summer after I graduated from Tennessee State
Speaker 2: University at Ohio University, and it was my first time
Speaker 2: being exposed to what a doctor of osteopathic medicine was,
Speaker 2: and it was really focused on general practition and those
Speaker 2: of like primary care, and so I kind of fell
Speaker 2: in love with really okay, I really like to know
Speaker 2: everything about the person, and also behavioral health kind of
Speaker 2: fell in that as well. So I entered into Ohio
Speaker 2: University for a medical school and stay there, and it
Speaker 2: was just different experience. I was coming from a historically
Speaker 2: black university and now I am in Appalachia, So I'm like, okay, Lord,
Speaker 2: you're giving me all types of experiences in my life.
Speaker 2: And then just from there just met really good like
Speaker 2: friendships and just really had a really good experience. And
Speaker 2: I left there and went to Cleveland Clinic and from
Speaker 2: there that did my residency. At that time, I had
Speaker 2: decided on psychiatry, And your question was how did I
Speaker 2: decide on that? And it was not until maybe one
Speaker 2: of my last rotations as a medical student, I'm like, hey,
Speaker 2: I don't like surgery. I'm not necessarily a person that
Speaker 2: wants to do a true specialty of dermatology. I really
Speaker 2: wanted to explore more yes of my primary general practitioner
Speaker 2: kind of experience and background. But I found myself in
Speaker 2: my clerkship of my rotation in psychiatry on an inpatient ward.
Speaker 2: On that ward, I saw a lot of persons of color,
Speaker 2: and I didn't see at that time where I was
Speaker 2: doing my rotation of a lot of those in those
Speaker 2: crisis situations of the majority. So I didn't see a
Speaker 2: lot of those who are Caucasian, and I was wondering
Speaker 2: why was that. And when I went from an in
Speaker 2: patient setting to the outpatient setting, then I saw more
Speaker 2: of those who were Caucasian and really exploring those preventative
Speaker 2: measures of their mental health and emotional well being. And
Speaker 2: that is kind of where I fell in love with psychiatry.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, you know what, I really know
Speaker 2: that I can relate to a lot of individuals because
Speaker 2: of my background and because of my life experiences, but
Speaker 2: I really want to be a representative of that Black
Speaker 2: community of a psychiatrist that we necessarily don't have to
Speaker 2: see someone in crises. We can have that particular representative
Speaker 2: as an outpatient and really work on what is proactive
Speaker 2: in my own mental health health. I have someone that
Speaker 2: I can relate to, I can talk about these things.
Speaker 2: They understand my spirituality and they understand that, hey, I'm
Speaker 2: not necessarily having a psychotist if I am talking to
Speaker 2: the Lord. And so it was just that particular experience
Speaker 2: that in me wanting to fill in that gap or
Speaker 2: that void and be truly a representative of this is
Speaker 2: what it looks like or what it could look like
Speaker 2: for proactive preventative mental health and going to see a psychiatrist.
Speaker 2: But funny story. Also, my mom, when I told her
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a psychiatrist, her being from the
Speaker 2: deep south of Alabama, she was like, so you going
Speaker 2: to medical school and you're not going to be a
Speaker 2: real doctor. And I said, mom, Mom, And so just
Speaker 2: knowing that, and now she's very well educated and she
Speaker 2: knows all things about mental health and going to see
Speaker 2: someone and medications, and just knowing that that is how
Speaker 2: we were. It's gotten much better now, but this is
Speaker 2: how we thought about going to see a psychiatrist. So
Speaker 2: that is kind of where I fell in love with it.
Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't like to get down and
Speaker 2: dirty in terms of physical exam Like I really loved
Speaker 2: talking to people. I love doing that particular type of examination.
Speaker 2: So that's how I landed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story because I think
Speaker 1: that that can pop up in lots of different ways, right,
Speaker 1: Like not just stigma around like medical specialties, but also
Speaker 1: I think the stigma related to mental health in some ways, right,
Speaker 1: I think that is deep seated for a lot of
Speaker 1: our families.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So is the focus on prevention that you
Speaker 1: saw what led you to develop your private practice Inner
Speaker 1: community Health.
Speaker 2: Yes and no. So my practice inner community health. It
Speaker 2: started back in actually in COVID, so it was a
Speaker 2: virtual practice. And so I was working while in COVID
Speaker 2: as any psychiatrist as well as now self employed doing
Speaker 2: my virtual practice. And usually during this time, I had
Speaker 2: a lot of women reaching out because we were all
Speaker 2: confined and we're like, okay, I can't set these particular
Speaker 2: boundaries that I thought I had in terms of work
Speaker 2: and life and children and husband and cooking and now
Speaker 2: working again. And I had a lot of women reaching
Speaker 2: out and say, hey, I need some help. I have
Speaker 2: not navigated this before. And I said, well, let me
Speaker 2: just open up my schedule and let's just see what
Speaker 2: this looks like. And it was again mostly women. And
Speaker 2: during that time, also as an employed psychiatrist, I was
Speaker 2: working in Cleveland Clinics Women's mental health department and not
Speaker 2: necessarily knowing what that was, but I just knew that
Speaker 2: I was drawn to women that had these life experiences,
Speaker 2: whether it was pregnancy loss, postpartum, postpartum depression as well
Speaker 2: as anxiety, and them really wanting to come to the
Speaker 2: office and really say, hey, I have a place to go,
Speaker 2: I have someone that understands me and also me going
Speaker 2: through my own particular journey in motherhood really made me gravitate.
Speaker 2: So just disclosure my graduated residency, I was going through
Speaker 2: my own particular transition like Okay, I'm attending, now what's next.
Speaker 2: Got married during that first year, I lost my grandmother
Speaker 2: during that first year out of residency, and I had
Speaker 2: a miscarriage, and so going through all those particular life
Speaker 2: transitions and not knowing where to turn. So here I
Speaker 2: am as a psychiatrist telling my clients or patients these
Speaker 2: coping strategies what to do, and I'm really not practicing
Speaker 2: what I'm telling them. So I'm not practicing what I'm preaching.
Speaker 2: And if I do want to have help or search
Speaker 2: out that particular individual, I did not know where to go.
Speaker 2: I knew myself because I need to go to someone
Speaker 2: that I can receive this information from. I needed to
Speaker 2: go to someone that I can feel that I can
Speaker 2: relate to. And that is why I think, ultimately, Hey,
Speaker 2: where is this place or how could I develop this
Speaker 2: space this place where I as a mother, I as
Speaker 2: a woman would want to go to and not go
Speaker 2: to a particular place where it's not conducive to my
Speaker 2: mental health, like my provider perhaps doesn't get me, or
Speaker 2: like the physical location is kind of like dim and
Speaker 2: not conducive to my mental health. It's not inviting or
Speaker 2: giving me aspirations. And so that is what I wanted
Speaker 2: to create for my women. I wanted to create a
Speaker 2: space that I know that I would want to go to,
Speaker 2: that I will feel comfortable and I know that I'm
Speaker 2: getting the necessary tools that I know that I needed
Speaker 2: at that time of my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have further specialized in reproductive psychiatry. Can
Speaker 1: you say more about that specialty.
Speaker 2: So, reproductive psychiatry is basically a specialty in psychiatry where
Speaker 2: we follow the women throughout her reproductive cycle. So that
Speaker 2: can be whether it is challenges with infertility, whether it
Speaker 2: is miscarriages or even elective or even spontaneous abortions, those
Speaker 2: who are pregnant or desiring to get pregnant, those who
Speaker 2: have had their child. And now maybe I'm going through
Speaker 2: something that is further than the baby blues, maybe I'm
Speaker 2: having some postpartum mood or anxiety symptoms or even psychosis.
Speaker 2: And then also traveling with that woman when you go
Speaker 2: through mental pause or perimental pausal symptoms, So really understanding
Speaker 2: that we're very complex and we have hormones, we have
Speaker 2: other challenges as relates to all the many things or
Speaker 2: people that are pulling on to us, and so just
Speaker 2: following her throughout her cycle, her journey just as a woman.
Speaker 1: And have you found that this reproductive kind of spectrum
Speaker 1: is where many women actually turn to wanting to have
Speaker 1: some mental health support or their particular challenges that you
Speaker 1: found that pop up during this period that make somebody
Speaker 1: more likely to seek out services.
Speaker 2: I have found that some women or just general population
Speaker 2: don't know that we exist. And once they find out
Speaker 2: that we exist and we are a place where we
Speaker 2: can really relate to each other and hey, yes I'm
Speaker 2: not sleeping and I'm forty five or I'm close to
Speaker 2: mental pause. Is that something yes, we can really think
Speaker 2: about that. Also having some cognitive or brain fog, Yes,
Speaker 2: that may be associated with perimental pause. So really educating
Speaker 2: others and letting them know that we exist and there
Speaker 2: is help. And so I do say, yes, we productive psychiatry,
Speaker 2: but it's just in general women's mental health and whatever
Speaker 2: that means to you that if we don't have it here,
Speaker 2: we can provide resources where it is for therapy met
Speaker 2: management groups. So really understanding that we exist and educating
Speaker 2: the population that this is a specialty in psychiatry.
Speaker 1: That can mean mean one of the things we talk
Speaker 1: about on the podcast, and that I feel like lots
Speaker 1: more women are talking about and getting diagnoses for things
Speaker 1: like PCOS and endometriosis. We know that there's like the
Speaker 1: medical kind of symptom side, Well, what are some of
Speaker 1: the mental health challenges that come up with something like
Speaker 1: a diagnosis like PCOS.
Speaker 2: Well with PCs, and this is like as we can
Speaker 2: just generalize it as some times of ovarian challenge or
Speaker 2: ovarian failure, and so there's a lot of symptoms that
Speaker 2: may come with that, whether it's physical symptoms of like ecniques,
Speaker 2: assive hair growth and fertility or problems conceiving, and so
Speaker 2: that can really play a part in someone's mental health journey,
Speaker 2: whether it is self esteem, whether that is some type
Speaker 2: of guilt or shame and just anxiety. If you are
Speaker 2: family planning, what does that look like for me? And
Speaker 2: providing that support to that the client as well as
Speaker 2: providing that support if you're working with your ovg U
Speaker 2: I N I think it's very necessary those patients are
Speaker 2: clients that I have with those particular diagnoses. They deal
Speaker 2: with the uncertainty and so that uncertain of me wanting
Speaker 2: to have a child, the uncertainty of what are these
Speaker 2: medications that my obgi in has put me on, whether
Speaker 2: it is some type of bird control peel, what type
Speaker 2: of pill that is that gon'll cause me to have
Speaker 2: some mood swings. So really supporting that patient through this
Speaker 2: journey of whatever she chooses. Hey, I'm on this to
Speaker 2: regulate any type of physical symptoms that I may be experiencing.
Speaker 2: I'm on this medication to make sure that I'm putting
Speaker 2: myself in the big chance to conceive or have a
Speaker 2: family plan just knowing that, Hey, we see you, we
Speaker 2: understand what you may be going through. There's some resources
Speaker 2: here and it goes far to you on just medications,
Speaker 2: it can just be okay, I'm here to listen. I'm
Speaker 2: here to listen to for your concerns and what are
Speaker 2: your goals we can have a treatment plan altogether.
Speaker 1: And what is your approach to medication management For somebody
Speaker 1: who may be struggling with something like anxiety and depression
Speaker 1: if they are also kind of on the fertility journey. Right,
Speaker 1: So maybe they are taking fertility medications.
Speaker 2: What's that a So, to be honest, my ladies come
Speaker 2: in apprehensive. They come in, Okay, I don't know about
Speaker 2: these medications, and I heard about you psychiatrists. You guys
Speaker 2: are going to prescribe these medications and I tell them, no,
Speaker 2: it's individualize and I'm going to tell you my recommendations.
Speaker 2: I'm going to also communicate to you that, hey, this
Speaker 2: is what I am hearing from you in terms of
Speaker 2: any impairment, whether it is in your sleep, your mood,
Speaker 2: your appetite, just in any impairment in your quality of life.
Speaker 2: And my job as a psychiatrist is to let you
Speaker 2: know your options. And so if you are going on
Speaker 2: your fertility journey and I can understand why you are
Speaker 2: a little bit hesitant of adding another medication, I can say, hey,
Speaker 2: there is limited research and that's just the nature of
Speaker 2: it in terms of you're dealing with women of infertility
Speaker 2: or pregnant women that we have limited research, but there
Speaker 2: is some out there. But there is some reviews saying
Speaker 2: that hey, even if you're on the medications like an SRI,
Speaker 2: a selective serotonin uptake inhibitor and those different parameters in
Speaker 2: terms of your ability to conceive. It has not shown
Speaker 2: any particular detrimental effects of you in your inability to
Speaker 2: conceive while you're going on this journey. But everything is
Speaker 2: individualized to you, so we have to weigh out all
Speaker 2: risk and benefits. As a psychiatrist or a medical doctor,
Speaker 2: I work closely with the obguy is to make sure
Speaker 2: I know all the medications that you're taking. We're doing
Speaker 2: drug interactions, making sure my stuff is I'm missing with
Speaker 2: her stuff, And it's really having that necessary collaborative care
Speaker 2: to make you feel comfortable and let you know your options.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to let you know hesis like, we
Speaker 2: need to make sure that you are good because when
Speaker 2: you do conceive that we are reducing our particular risk
Speaker 2: of low birth rate or pre term labor. We're really
Speaker 2: looking at the risk and benefits for you as well
Speaker 2: as the baby. It's a team effort and understand and
Speaker 2: that at the center of the team it's you as
Speaker 2: the client and the patient. So I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 2: my recommendations, the OBGUI is gonna tell you her recommendations,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna all work together and make sure you
Speaker 2: feel heard and sing mm hmm.
Speaker 1: You know another place where this often comes up around
Speaker 1: do I take medication do I not? Is actually after
Speaker 1: somebody has given birth, right and maybe they're breastfeeding, and
Speaker 1: so there may be still some like anxiety depression symptoms
Speaker 1: that medication actually could be really helpful for. But I
Speaker 1: think a lot of new moms are very concerned like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be harmful to the baby. Can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the considerations of
Speaker 1: taking medication, like when you're breastfeeding.
Speaker 2: So if we're dealing with depression or anxiety, my go
Speaker 2: to has been searchling and that's just how I have
Speaker 2: been trained. They have those parameters you look for. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's just safe the lactation.
Speaker 1: Yes it is.
Speaker 2: How does this work with when I'm pregnant? And do
Speaker 2: I have to taper off my medications when I get
Speaker 2: pregnant again? It depends on how you are doing and
Speaker 2: making sure that we're weighing risk and benefits. Have I
Speaker 2: had clients that have done great on this medication. Oh
Speaker 2: you're pregnant, awesome, How are you feeling? What are your concerns?
Speaker 2: And Doctor Sanders or doctor Mimi, I'm good, keep me
Speaker 2: on my medication. Okay, I'm going to let you know
Speaker 2: that we're going to be seeing each other a little
Speaker 2: bit more frequently. I'm going to be monitoring your mood
Speaker 2: and sending you all types of screenings to your portal
Speaker 2: more frequently. And so I'm your extra set of ears
Speaker 2: and eyes, and you tell me how you're feeling, whether
Speaker 2: it's once a week, so really having that communication. But
Speaker 2: there's research saying that hey, stand on this medication is
Speaker 2: good for you and the baby, especially if you have
Speaker 2: experienced depression in the past prior to pregnancy. We know
Speaker 2: that you're at greater risk, and we want to make
Speaker 2: sure that we're making an environment from a pregnancy standpoint,
Speaker 2: from a postpartum standpoint that is conduces for you and
Speaker 2: the child.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, more from our conversation after the break. So
Speaker 1: in addition to conversations around medicine, we've already talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about like unpacking the stigmas that are sometimes
Speaker 1: related to things like fertility or just kind of I
Speaker 1: think mental health in general in the black community. What
Speaker 1: does that look like when you were working with your
Speaker 1: clients to help them kind of unpack some of these stigmas.
Speaker 2: So considering that there perhaps would be some type of
Speaker 2: going on a fertility journey, and depending on how long
Speaker 2: you've been on it, there can be some issues around
Speaker 2: your womanhood. And this is what I grew up of
Speaker 2: wanting to I'm able to produce. This is how I
Speaker 2: grew up people around me, this is what we were
Speaker 2: made for in terms of women in order to have
Speaker 2: a child. And if I'm having some type of challenges
Speaker 2: or barriers, what does that mean for me as a woman?
Speaker 2: And so I look at that and we challenge those thoughts.
Speaker 2: We challenge those thoughts and say, Okay, what do you
Speaker 2: believe in terms of your womanhood and do you know
Speaker 2: your particular options when it comes to the different types
Speaker 2: of assistant reproductive technology or fertility treatments. So really leading
Speaker 2: into those particular thoughts that you have as a woman,
Speaker 2: how you define your womanhood, challenging any particular shame, letting
Speaker 2: you know that you don't have to go through this alone,
Speaker 2: and if you feel yourself having to hide this or
Speaker 2: feel is secretive, that here's a place that you can
Speaker 2: really be vulnerable and have a deeper dive of what
Speaker 2: that looks like for you going through this journey and
Speaker 2: as it relates to taking medication, you take a medication
Speaker 2: does not mean that you are weak. Does that mean
Speaker 2: that you need a little bit extra push. No, it
Speaker 2: just means that, hey, this is the right treatment option
Speaker 2: for me in this season. And do I have to
Speaker 2: be on medication for the rest of my life? No,
Speaker 2: But if you want to, I have pages and say,
Speaker 2: don't touch anything that I'm doing fine, I am operating,
Speaker 2: I'm living the best quality of life. I really love
Speaker 2: how I feel. And so it's really looking at that
Speaker 2: person or the client making sure that I hear you.
Speaker 2: I see you. I'm not devaluing your concerns, but I
Speaker 2: want to educate you as much as possible and let
Speaker 2: you also challenge any of those false beliefs that you
Speaker 2: have had about what womanhood means to you and not
Speaker 2: what the expectations have been placed on you.
Speaker 1: So you know what I mean. I feel like we've
Speaker 1: had growing conversations around things like postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety.
Speaker 1: But what kinds of things do you feel like we
Speaker 1: still need to talk more about as it relates to
Speaker 1: the postpartum period in a woman's life.
Speaker 2: So when we hear postpartum automatically. I've seen that patients
Speaker 2: think postpartum depression, and we really are not leaning into
Speaker 2: post part of anxiety, which I see more in my clinic.
Speaker 2: Is that post part of anxiety and that separate racial
Speaker 2: anxiety that the new mom has with her baby. I
Speaker 2: also think that we need to lean more into what
Speaker 2: does me returning to work look like? And what does
Speaker 2: this new normal look like? And is there options for
Speaker 2: me to spend more time to bond with my baby
Speaker 2: and what does that look like? And so I have
Speaker 2: had many patients come to me and say, I'm just
Speaker 2: not ready to return to work. I fear that no
Speaker 2: one can take care of that baby like I can.
Speaker 2: I feel that I'm going to miss out on some
Speaker 2: particular mouthstones when I'm at work. And then we look
Speaker 2: at that and said, okay, what else do you need?
Speaker 2: And so what was your postpartum plan and have we
Speaker 2: deviated from that? If so, how are we in terms
Speaker 2: of our pivot? What are our options and what are truths? So, yes,
Speaker 2: you are doing a great job as a mom, and
Speaker 2: you have those particular safety concerns, but is that postpartum
Speaker 2: anxiety leaning more in terms of obsessiveness? And you having
Speaker 2: to check that monitor a little bit too often. Now
Speaker 2: you can't take care of yourself and you're not sleeping.
Speaker 2: We're trying to get the sleep that you can on
Speaker 2: when the baby is sleeping. So just leading more into
Speaker 2: looking into post part of anxiety and not always thinking
Speaker 2: that it's postpartum depression and that post part of anxiety
Speaker 2: can lead to secondary depression, but really saying, okay, what
Speaker 2: is that anxiety? Is it interfering with me taking care
Speaker 2: of myself therefore also interfering with me taking care of
Speaker 2: my baby the best way I can. What does that
Speaker 2: separation anxiety look like? And what is realistic plans for
Speaker 2: me to return to work? And if I'm not ready,
Speaker 2: how can I have that conversation with my physicians or
Speaker 2: with your psychiatrists so we can have a really good
Speaker 2: plan for you and the child.
Speaker 1: So how do you know, doctor Mimi, if something is
Speaker 1: just normal kind of especially for first time moms, right, like,
Speaker 1: how is it different? How is just regular new mom anxiety? Like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what do I do? How do I
Speaker 1: take care of this baby? How do you know when
Speaker 1: it is crossed the line to be the something that
Speaker 1: might meet criteria for anxiety and that you might need
Speaker 1: to talk with someone about it.
Speaker 2: So I asked them to give me a time period.
Speaker 2: So let's just say, Okay, I'm anxious got your baby's safety.
Speaker 2: And so I'm asking you, well, how many times are
Speaker 2: you checking that monitor? And when are you checking it?
Speaker 2: And some patients will say I'm not even checking the
Speaker 2: monitor and I'm sleeping outside the door, or you know,
Speaker 2: Or I said, well, have we interview if you do
Speaker 2: a daycare, have we interviewed any particular nannies. They have
Speaker 2: this idea of the baby can come with them, she
Speaker 2: can't leave them and go to target with her mother.
Speaker 2: What she knows is a safe person. And so I'm
Speaker 2: asking them, okay, how are you maneuvering through life? And
Speaker 2: how many hours out the day are you having to
Speaker 2: obsess over the safety your concerns for your child. And
Speaker 2: I look at that and say, okay, out of the
Speaker 2: twenty four hour period you're spending just say this twelve
Speaker 2: hours plus really focusing on hey, what if I did
Speaker 2: not bathe the baby right? What if they did not
Speaker 2: shake up the bottle this many times at that feeding?
Speaker 2: So just really looking into those particular thoughts and say Okay,
Speaker 2: are they rational? Were you thinking like this prior to pregnancy?
Speaker 2: And don't just really having that good interview with the
Speaker 2: mom and just debunking those particular myths of no one
Speaker 2: can take care of the baby like you can. Granted
Speaker 2: you are that child's mom and you have that particular bonding,
Speaker 2: but also you know that you have to have some
Speaker 2: support and knowing that, hey, I can trust my partner,
Speaker 2: I can trust any other family supports around me, so
Speaker 2: I can take care of myself. Are you showering? Are
Speaker 2: you feeding yourself? Are you really taking care of yourself?
Speaker 2: And has those things gone neglected because of you obsessing
Speaker 2: or being very anxious about your child? So we really
Speaker 2: take a deeper dive of like what does this look like?
Speaker 2: And it's this, Okay, it's this rational for you. And
Speaker 2: so I will find my lady saying no, I should
Speaker 2: be able to not sleep outside the door, or I
Speaker 2: should be able to leave my baby with my mom
Speaker 2: in order for me to go get me a cup
Speaker 2: of soup or something. So it's just really listening to
Speaker 2: her and allow herself to listen to her own thoughts
Speaker 2: and challenging and facilitating the challenging of those thoughts. So,
Speaker 2: but really again leaning into that postpart anxiety, that separation,
Speaker 2: that guilt of hey, I'm going to miss every milestone
Speaker 2: if I do return to work. No, no, no, you're not.
Speaker 2: You are You are engaged in your child's development, and
Speaker 2: you will know and you will be able to experience
Speaker 2: those things. But we are not devaluing how you're feeling.
Speaker 2: We just want to make sure that you're taking care
Speaker 2: of yourself. M h.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the baby monitor, and I feel like technology
Speaker 1: has evolved so much beyond monitors, right, so now there's
Speaker 1: a little sock the baby can wear, there's something you
Speaker 1: can put under their mattress. How do you feel about
Speaker 1: these tools, Like do you feel like they're actually helping
Speaker 1: moms and parents to kind of manage anxiety or do
Speaker 1: you feel like in some ways they can kind of
Speaker 1: increase the anxiety.
Speaker 2: In some ways, it's increasing it because now you have
Speaker 2: different parameters that you're trying to make sure that you're
Speaker 2: staying within. It's just a lot of noises and things
Speaker 2: and notifications are going out. And so imagine if you're
Speaker 2: already anxious and your hormones are already all over the place,
Speaker 2: and now you're having all these apps and notifications come
Speaker 2: on your phone, and so I would tell them, hey,
Speaker 2: let's just turn off too, Let's turn it off, and
Speaker 2: then okay, how are we feeling? We feel it? Okay,
Speaker 2: was baby girl? Baby boy? Okay? Yes, we can still
Speaker 2: watch the monitor and if you're at daycare, yes, zoom
Speaker 2: in and let me see what you guys are doing
Speaker 2: over there. But we have to make sure that we
Speaker 2: are not exaggerating our anxiety with all these developments and technology,
Speaker 2: but still understanding that. Yeah, especially as first time moms,
Speaker 2: like this is my first baby. I've gone through this
Speaker 2: particular journey to have this child, and so I value
Speaker 2: that I see that. But we have to make sure again,
Speaker 2: how are you mom, because we cannot neglect ourselves because
Speaker 2: we have someone else that kind of come into the picture.
Speaker 2: We also lean into your support. So instead of those notifications,
Speaker 2: if you are fortunate enough to have that family support,
Speaker 2: lead into that instead of you know, the technology and notifications.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of support, like what kinds of things would
Speaker 1: you say to partners and other family members about how
Speaker 1: to support somebody who is kind of in the postpartum
Speaker 1: period and maybe how to recognize like when they need
Speaker 1: to escalate and talk to somebody else.
Speaker 2: I recently did a recertification in my perinatal mental health class,
Speaker 2: and we talked about a postpartum plan and sharing that
Speaker 2: plan of course with your supports prior to the birth
Speaker 2: of the baby, and during that conversation or during that
Speaker 2: eyelock with your support, letting them know and also being
Speaker 2: educated as the patient of what this does look like.
Speaker 2: If I am having some type of irritability, mood, anxiousness,
Speaker 2: and so if I do start to exhibit some of
Speaker 2: those particular signs and symptoms, then this is how I
Speaker 2: wish for you to communicate to me about what you see.
Speaker 2: And I'm very opened for you to communicate that to
Speaker 2: me because once I give birth, I know that I'm
Speaker 2: going to have some fluctuations in my mood, some fluctuations
Speaker 2: due to my hormones, and so I may not be
Speaker 2: able to recognize that within myself. So during my postpartum
Speaker 2: plan that I'm doing pre baby, I really need you
Speaker 2: to let me know how I'm doing. Encourage me to
Speaker 2: take care of myself, make sure that I have meals
Speaker 2: because my focus will be whether it's breastfeeding or feeding
Speaker 2: that baby. So make sure that you're taking care of
Speaker 2: me as I'm trying my best to take care of
Speaker 2: my new born. So having that conversation pre baby, setting
Speaker 2: a postpartum plan with your family members or that loved
Speaker 2: one or that partner, I think it will be very
Speaker 2: very helpful. And then also, hey, if I get to
Speaker 2: a point where I'm unable to receive from you, who's backup,
Speaker 2: who's your backup that can that can communicate to me?
Speaker 2: And also making sure that you, if it is my partner,
Speaker 2: how are you going through this process? And I don't
Speaker 2: want you to neglect your needs, partner, so you make
Speaker 2: sure that you have your own particular support. So having
Speaker 2: a postpartum plan pre baby, I thought it was very
Speaker 2: good advice that they were giving us to tell our
Speaker 2: clients let's develop it, but also not be so rigid
Speaker 2: that we have to stick to it, and so we
Speaker 2: know areas where we can pivot. But hey, please let
Speaker 2: me know if I am not having the quality of
Speaker 2: life that you know that I should have. So making
Speaker 2: sure my basics, eating, my social connectivity, my sleeping, so
Speaker 2: help me out because we're not going to get the
Speaker 2: sleep that we did. But what does this look like
Speaker 2: now for me? To make sure as I have gone
Speaker 2: through this experience of giving birth, making sure that I
Speaker 2: am sleeping good. And then again, well you're not exercising,
Speaker 2: but when I can, and if that's something that I
Speaker 2: used to like to do, encourage me because that also
Speaker 2: has its added benefits.
Speaker 1: Are there any resources in particular that you knew of,
Speaker 1: doctor Mimi that are specifically for men to support the
Speaker 1: women in their lives around reproductive psychiatry.
Speaker 2: So there's a website and Postpartum Support International and so
Speaker 2: on that website. It has different tabs and it's also
Speaker 2: they have support groups for partners that you can kind
Speaker 2: of put in your zip code figure out where you
Speaker 2: could go whether and also if it is virtual for
Speaker 2: your partners and they can have male groups and then
Speaker 2: also other partner relationship groups. And I believe that was
Speaker 2: a really good website. And also on that website directory
Speaker 2: for those who are reproductive psychiatrists or how do I
Speaker 2: find a provider? And so that is kind of a
Speaker 2: website that I give my clients if you're looking for
Speaker 2: support groups, if you're looking for other providers, therapists, other psychiatrists,
Speaker 2: just other resources when you're going through this perinatal journey.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 1: So earlier in our conversation you talked a little bit
Speaker 1: about you know, we spend a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: about like the fertility journey, postpartum kind of pre postpartum,
Speaker 1: but also perimenopause and menopause, right, is another part of
Speaker 1: this psycho that women go through. You mentioned it like
Speaker 1: brain fog and like some cognitive concerns. What are some
Speaker 1: of the particular mental health kinds of symptoms that we
Speaker 1: see kind of in this perimenopause menopause stage.
Speaker 2: Well, and just self disclosure, like I'm freezing the whole
Speaker 2: house out in terms of high insomnia, you know, Okay,
Speaker 2: brain fog. So the mental health, it could just be
Speaker 2: mood swings because your hormones are literally swinging, they're decreasing,
Speaker 2: and so mood swings, irritability, lolabido, and also just physical
Speaker 2: symptoms of whether it is vaginal dryness that can also
Speaker 2: contribute to your lo levito. So just for perimental pause
Speaker 2: or just going through mental pause, look it out for
Speaker 2: those symptoms of yes, hot you hear hot and cold flashes,
Speaker 2: but also that cognitive of slowing or that brain fog, Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm not as quick as I used to get Okay,
Speaker 2: just give me some time. But mood swings that irritability
Speaker 2: and that snappiness sometimes it can lead to depression. So
Speaker 2: again it's different for ladies all ladies. So also you
Speaker 2: can I ask, if you have a mom that you're
Speaker 2: able to ask, Okay, what time when did you go
Speaker 2: through this? How is your experiences because it may be
Speaker 2: similar to hers, and so you can be on the
Speaker 2: lookouts of those particular symptoms, but moved symptoms of just anxiety, depression, irritability,
Speaker 2: just some type of what we call liability in your mood,
Speaker 2: not knowing how I'm feeling, and also just I'm not
Speaker 2: sleeping as well as I used to. And what are
Speaker 2: my particular options? And I do, of course work with
Speaker 2: the obgui ns about this, so I leave the hormone
Speaker 2: replacement to them if they choose to go that route,
Speaker 2: and if not, we still have medications from my standpoint
Speaker 2: as relates to depression or anxiety, as well as we
Speaker 2: have medications from a psychiatry standpoint for hot flashes. So
Speaker 2: there are options and we work together. And if you
Speaker 2: are on hormone replacement therapy, your obgui in can do that,
Speaker 2: and so you may not need as much as medications
Speaker 2: on my end for those hot flashes for that irritability
Speaker 2: because now you have that replacement from a hormonal standpoint.
Speaker 1: So I would imagine that all of this is kind
Speaker 1: of connected. But how do you distinguish between like anxiety
Speaker 1: and depression symptoms that may be really it's a perimenopause
Speaker 1: versus something that is just like maybe a generalized anxiety
Speaker 1: disorder or major depressive disorder or does it even matter.
Speaker 2: I would say it matters, but then it doesn't doct
Speaker 2: enjoy because the way that you would know if it's hormonal, okay,
Speaker 2: you're getting your your levels checked and if you want
Speaker 2: to elect to go to hormone replacement, okay, But it
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter because we're going to treat it the
Speaker 2: same way from my standpoint. So if you're having some depression,
Speaker 2: you're having some anxiety, you're having some insomnia. If it
Speaker 2: was not for your hormones and it was like more
Speaker 2: of an I guess organic type of or depression or anxiety,
Speaker 2: then I'm still going to give you your treatment recommendations
Speaker 2: of Hey, this is what you can use for medications
Speaker 2: you can use a villa faccine. We can use a
Speaker 2: peroxytine for these symptoms. So it really doesn't matter because
Speaker 2: I'm going to treat it the same way. But if
Speaker 2: you really want the root, cause, let's get some of
Speaker 2: your hormone levels, and if you elect to go this
Speaker 2: way in terms of homo replacement therapy, you can. And
Speaker 2: if you don't, then we can lean into my medications.
Speaker 2: But if you elect to do both, we can do both.
Speaker 2: So it kind of doesn't matter. It's all connected. It's biological,
Speaker 2: it's psychological, it's got social aspects. So it's like a
Speaker 2: biopsychosocial treatment plan that we all just have to agree
Speaker 2: on and just know that, hey, we are working on
Speaker 2: your team and we want to make sure that you
Speaker 2: are living your life the way that you want to
Speaker 2: and it's the best quality. Yeah, in all stages.
Speaker 1: You're right. So what would you say to a sister
Speaker 1: Docum maybe who might be listening to us, and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe she's in our forties or fifties and feels like
Speaker 1: her mental health is kind of steadily unraveling. What kinds
Speaker 1: of things would you say to her? And where should
Speaker 1: she start?
Speaker 2: I would say, go see someone. Okay, if you have
Speaker 2: any particular barriers from a mental standpoint, saying hey, I
Speaker 2: don't want to go see anybody, I don't want to
Speaker 2: tell anybody my business. I don't want to feel like
Speaker 2: I need some help in my emotional well being. It
Speaker 2: just makes me feel kind of weak. Just try your
Speaker 2: best to push through it, because that's the hardest part.
Speaker 2: And once you get to that person or you get
Speaker 2: to that person that you vibe with, and you can
Speaker 2: really kind of say, Okay, this is what I'm going through.
Speaker 2: I do feel like I'm unraveling in my mid forties,
Speaker 2: my fifties. I know things are off. What do you
Speaker 2: got from me? And really educating yourself on your options,
Speaker 2: educating yourself on hey, there are resources. I don't have
Speaker 2: to be on medication. I just may need someone to
Speaker 2: talk to and help me through this particular transition in
Speaker 2: my life. We have never been this particular age before,
Speaker 2: and so really giving yourself that grace and saying hey,
Speaker 2: I may not have needed that help when I was thirty, However,
Speaker 2: I have gone through a lot of things. Between thirty
Speaker 2: and forty five, I have gone through a lot of
Speaker 2: season changes, a lot of transitions, and perhaps my resilience
Speaker 2: is not as much as it used to be. And
Speaker 2: that's okay, that's not making me weak. It makes me
Speaker 2: know that I need to lean into some support that
Speaker 2: now I know I have resources.
Speaker 1: Yeah, any tips for advocating yourself with medical professionals.
Speaker 2: It's funny that you asked. I recently told one of
Speaker 2: my clients. I said, hey, go back to that obgui
Speaker 2: in and let her know that you want some birth control.
Speaker 2: And so she was a patient that married, has been
Speaker 2: married for several years, but they just wasn't not at
Speaker 2: a stage where they wanted to have children, and going
Speaker 2: to see her obguy in, she didn't bring up the
Speaker 2: fact that she wanted to be on birth control, and
Speaker 2: the provider didn't either, because the provider automatically assume you're married,
Speaker 2: you were in your career, you have this particular support.
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you want to have children? And so we
Speaker 2: really had to work on that conversation in our sessions
Speaker 2: and say no, you can really advocate for yourself and
Speaker 2: just say hey, no, please tell me more about my
Speaker 2: birth control options. Tell me more because right now I
Speaker 2: want to do proper family planning for me. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't any particular knock for that provider. It was just
Speaker 2: maybe it was some implicit bias of like, hey, I
Speaker 2: just thought that she wanted to have children. She's married,
Speaker 2: and she has this particular setup that I think, you know,
Speaker 2: it's beneficial for bringing in a child, But really her
Speaker 2: and myself and the patient really having those role playing
Speaker 2: type of discussions in session and saying, no, I want
Speaker 2: to know my options. Also, I wanted to know if
Speaker 2: I want to be on a Monte phase or try
Speaker 2: phase a birth control peel. So we're really knowing and
Speaker 2: educating ourselves about options and making sure that we are
Speaker 2: telling our providers what you desire and advocating and showing
Speaker 2: up for yourself and having that voice. And so I'm
Speaker 2: just the one in the background, just kind of just pushing, okay,
Speaker 2: talk to her. So, yeah, she was my patient, she
Speaker 2: got on her birth control. She is fine, she said, Okay,
Speaker 2: I feel so I'm so less anxious. I'm so less anxious.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really great suggestion, you know, role playing, right, like,
Speaker 1: how can you role play with the tr to the
Speaker 1: other person, what kinds of conversations you might neither have
Speaker 1: with your primary care doctor? Or your obgyn or whoever. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: any other resources or affirmations that you find yourself kind
Speaker 1: of using in your practice.
Speaker 2: In my practice, so I'm a psychiatrist, but I say
Speaker 2: I do a little sprinkle of adult psychotherapy within my
Speaker 2: sessions for these of my clients, and so I do
Speaker 2: lean in, especially with my very busy ladies, and just
Speaker 2: those basic skills of mindfulness is just slowing down and
Speaker 2: practicing stillness, and so we really do those mindful exercises
Speaker 2: of just hey, you don't have to eat at your
Speaker 2: desk at work. You could actually go to the break
Speaker 2: room and you could actually eat mindfully in the breakroom
Speaker 2: away from your computer. And those mindful are just those
Speaker 2: breathing exercises, So just really slowing down because we are
Speaker 2: in I think an anxious society because everything is so fast,
Speaker 2: it's all at you at once, and so just taking
Speaker 2: those moments to do that mindful exercise where it's eating,
Speaker 2: whether it is breathing. When we're trying to go to
Speaker 2: sleep and we're having some issues, do those progressive muscle relaxations,
Speaker 2: So just really slowing down your movement, slowing down your mind,
Speaker 2: so you really can practice being in that present moment,
Speaker 2: and so I often give out mindful or DVT exercises
Speaker 2: to my patients throughout the portal and just challenging those
Speaker 2: negative thought patterns and changing our perspectives and again advocating
Speaker 2: for yourself in those conversations. Hey, what do you truly desire?
Speaker 2: Because we often do a lot of things for other people. Hey,
Speaker 2: we are perhaps at an age now where we have
Speaker 2: poured out enough and let's steit back and let's be
Speaker 2: mindful and let's allow other support in to us, but
Speaker 2: also let's teach them how we desire to be poured into.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so where can we stay connected with you? Doctor Mimi?
Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media
Speaker 1: channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 2: Yes, so my practice is community Health, So it's I
Speaker 2: n N EER Community Health and that's innercommunity Health dot
Speaker 2: com and you can find all information there. Resources. Also,
Speaker 2: if you are a healthcare provider and you are looking
Speaker 2: for reproductive psychiatrists, nurse practitioners, therapists, we have that in
Speaker 2: house at our practice and you can actually click on
Speaker 2: referral and we make sure that we can provide those
Speaker 2: services for your clients. We see patients or clients in Georgia, Virginia, Maryland,
Speaker 2: and Ohio, and of course we see those who are
Speaker 2: not in Georgia virtually, but my social media handles are
Speaker 2: doctrimimi dot care, so d r m imi dot care
Speaker 2: on all social platforms. But yeah, and you can also
Speaker 2: just call the practice and get with our concierge or
Speaker 2: our office manager. And that's eight hundred sixty two zero
Speaker 2: six nine five zero. So we just really want to
Speaker 2: be a place where this is, yes for women, but
Speaker 2: it is just for that total person to provide that
Speaker 2: spectrum of care from whether it's individualized to group therapies,
Speaker 2: also to intents of outpatient programming that we are going
Speaker 2: to start this coming up late summer, so we're excited
Speaker 2: about that and that's going to have a heavy focus
Speaker 2: on those that have just reproductive issues. And also, hey,
Speaker 2: we're showing active treatment, so if you do need that
Speaker 2: particular time off, then hey, this is a place where
Speaker 2: I can really get those coping strategies, it's culping skills,
Speaker 2: and also be under physician's care. So we're just excited
Speaker 2: about how we're scaling and growing and just be in
Speaker 2: that place again that I desire during my life transitions.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that, Doctor mean we should
Speaker 1: include all of that in the show notes. I'm so
Speaker 1: happy doctor Sanders is able to join us for today's
Speaker 1: episode to learn more about her and her work. We
Speaker 1: should have visited the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com Session four fifteen, and don't forget to text
Speaker 1: this episode to two of your girls right now and
Speaker 1: tell them to check it out. Did you know that
Speaker 1: you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or
Speaker 1: suggestions for the podcast. If you have books you'd like
Speaker 1: us to review or movies you'd like to suggest, drop
Speaker 1: us a message at Remo dot fm slash Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls,
Speaker 1: and make sure to join us in our Patreon community
Speaker 1: for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more.
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indechubu
Speaker 1: and Tyrie Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 1: Take it care what pet foot pen pot fast Woods