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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Well, if he

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Speaker 1: had any doubts before, Paul Manafort now knows that special

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Speaker 1: counsel Robert Mueller is watching his every move, and it

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Speaker 1: earned him a scolding from the judge overseeing his conspiracy

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Speaker 1: and money laundering case. This morning, prosecutors accused the former

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign manager of ghost writing an op ed in

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Speaker 1: a Ukrainian newspaper, violating a gag order prohibiting any of

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Speaker 1: the parties from communicating with the media. Joining me as

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Speaker 1: Stephen Vladdock, professor at the University of Texas School of Law,

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Speaker 1: Steve prosecutors revealed that they knew nearly every detail of

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Speaker 1: that editing process of the op ed, including how long

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Speaker 1: Manifort worked on it, the changes he made Right get

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Speaker 1: Microsoft word. Is it unusual that they appear to be

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Speaker 1: monitoring him so closely? So? I think it's not that

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Speaker 1: unusual when you consider the circumstances here. Here we have

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Speaker 1: an individual who has been indicted, who has been brought

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Speaker 1: before federal judge, who has been arraigned, who has entered

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Speaker 1: into an agreement with the prosecutors regarding his ability to

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Speaker 1: be free on bail, penning his forthcoming prosecution. I think

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Speaker 1: those are perhaps the circumstances in which you could expect

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Speaker 1: the most aggressive monitor and supervision by prosecutors to ensure

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Speaker 1: that this defendant, who you know, the prosecution agreed to

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Speaker 1: allow out on vondum, is complying with the terms of

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Speaker 1: the release agreement. So the judge reprimanded him, saying the

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Speaker 1: point of the gag orders to have the merits of

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Speaker 1: the case debated by everyone in this courtroom, not in

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Speaker 1: the press. Manafort's lawyer actually argued that he should have

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Speaker 1: the right to defend himself in the press. What is

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Speaker 1: Manafort risking by violating this order and pushing it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think most importantly, I think Manafort is

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Speaker 1: risking eventually provoking the judge into suspending the order and

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Speaker 1: basically ordering Manafort into custody. I think we're not there yet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is not the kind of

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Speaker 1: situation where someone who's out on bond is going around

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Speaker 1: and committing other crimes or is you know, engageing in

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Speaker 1: the other kind of reprehensible conduct that would lead to

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Speaker 1: a replication of a bond order. But I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: If you're a Paul Manafort, this is a hornet's nest

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Speaker 1: that you want to stir. I mean, I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: the more that you annoy the judge in this context,

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Speaker 1: the less likely he's going to be sympathetic down the road.

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Speaker 1: Why ever, annoy the judge and his lawyers this morning

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Speaker 1: presented the judge with a new bail package. He agreed

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Speaker 1: that he would forfeit four properties worth eleven point seven

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Speaker 1: million if you failed to appeal in court in exchange

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Speaker 1: for dropping his electronic monitoring and home confinement. And the

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Speaker 1: judge questioned whether the assets were sufficient and also whether

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Speaker 1: Manafort should be able to move freely among his three homes.

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Speaker 1: What is she worried about here? She really worried about

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Speaker 1: him fleeing. I think that there is some concern about fleeing.

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Speaker 1: I think there's also a concern that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: more freedom of movement someone like Maniford has, the more

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Speaker 1: he could try, perhaps behind the scenes, to you know,

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Speaker 1: tint the jury pool or two. Otherwise, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: just store the case. It's eventually gonna be brought against him.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, let's keep in mind, this is,

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Speaker 1: you know, someone who's charged with very serious crimes, you know,

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Speaker 1: who presumably is still of significant interest to special counselor

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Speaker 1: as a potential witness UM. And so I think you know,

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Speaker 1: from the judge's perspective, keeping him close to home is

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Speaker 1: valuable not only to ensure that he's not a flight

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Speaker 1: risk UM, and not only to sort of limit his

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Speaker 1: ability to interfere with public perception about his case, but

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Speaker 1: it also, I mean, let's be frank, you know, preserves

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Speaker 1: the ease of access that the special counsel will have

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Speaker 1: to him and his counsel. If there's a point down

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Speaker 1: the road where Manaford becomes interested in, you know, turn

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Speaker 1: state's evidence and and er into some kind of cooperation agreement, Steve,

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Speaker 1: will it reach a point if he keeps putting more

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Speaker 1: and more assets on the table where the judge will

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Speaker 1: basically have to let him, let him go out on

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Speaker 1: you know, without the confinement. I mean, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's sort a practical answer to that, and the

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Speaker 1: legal answer legally, No, I mean legally, these are the

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Speaker 1: kinds of questions that are generally committed to the discretion

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Speaker 1: of the trial judge. Where as long as they're not

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Speaker 1: acting in a manner that's you know, completely unreasonable um

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Speaker 1: and appellate court is not going to get ansty about it.

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Speaker 1: I think practically sure. I mean, I think if we've

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Speaker 1: got to a point where Manaford is putting up literally

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars to ensure his appearance in court,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for the government to oppose

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Speaker 1: his request. Of course, that assumes that there's no additional

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Speaker 1: mischief by Manafort, that there are no additional episodes that

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Speaker 1: seemed to be in violation of his agreement um that

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Speaker 1: gave rise is in the first place. I think the

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Speaker 1: more he you know, pokes that they, I think it's

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Speaker 1: the less likely he's going to receive any sympathy from

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Speaker 1: the Special counsel's team or from the judge. Also, does

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Speaker 1: his ghost writing that op ed with a former Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: colleague show that he still remains close to these colleagues

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Speaker 1: that that he's accused of dealing with. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that the worst the worst optics of this

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Speaker 1: are sort of not the specific offense, but rather the

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Speaker 1: substance of the thing that he did. I mean, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, for someone who is being prosecuted for being

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Speaker 1: up to his eyeballs with you know, sinister and shady

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Speaker 1: foreign elements and then for lying about it to the

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Speaker 1: FBI to then go around while he's under indictment and

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Speaker 1: ghost right, this kind of op ed with that kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, co author on that kind of subject um.

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Speaker 1: I don't really think it's the best book for someone

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Speaker 1: like Manaford in that context. And so, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's fair to question that his judgment at

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Speaker 1: this point. And you know, if he received advice from

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Speaker 1: anyone else, you know, their judgment as well. And Steve,

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Speaker 1: we've about thirty seconds here. How unusual is it that

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of hundred thousand documents being turned

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Speaker 1: over by special Counsel to Manifort, including about two thousand

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Speaker 1: that are called hot documents. Yeah, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: you know, it's unusual only the sense of the volume.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, again, this is such a high profile case,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, and let's be clear, a series of cases

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Speaker 1: that I think, you know, the Special Counsel is going

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Speaker 1: to be very careful to avoid even the appearance of

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Speaker 1: impropriety when it comes to reciprocal discovery. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I think the Special Council is doing this by the book. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're only here because by you know, every day after

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Speaker 1: day it seems like manaforts increasingly trying to see when

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Speaker 1: that book runs out. Well put as always, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here. That's Stephen Vladdoki's professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of Texas School of Law. Buyers proposed sixty six billion

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Speaker 1: dollar takeover Vermont Santo would make at the world's largest

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Speaker 1: integrated pesticides and seeds company. If the deal goes through

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Speaker 1: as planned, the European Union's antitrust regulator is set to

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Speaker 1: hand buyer a so called statement of objections with potential

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Speaker 1: reasons for it to block the takeover as soon as

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Speaker 1: this week, according to two people familiar with the EU's

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Speaker 1: investigation into the merger. Joining me is Peter Carstons and

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Speaker 1: professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School, Peter. EU

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Speaker 1: Competition Commissioner Margaret the Stayer said last week that regulators

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Speaker 1: are looking very carefully at the competition issues and are

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Speaker 1: going into great detail to analyze the company's operations. What

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Speaker 1: concerns them most, Uh, probably it's the overall concentration in

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Speaker 1: the both the production in distribution of egg chemicals and

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Speaker 1: the dominance of the genetically modified and other forms of seed.

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Speaker 1: I know genetic modified seeds are not favored in Europe,

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Speaker 1: but this is really going to concentrate the supply side

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Speaker 1: for crops of all kinds. So are they worried that

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Speaker 1: the prices to farmers will be higher? Yes, this is

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Speaker 1: going to The concern is that it will result in

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Speaker 1: one increased prices to a reduction in options alternatives, alternatives

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Speaker 1: types of seed available to farmers and free that it

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Speaker 1: is likely to adversely affect innovation. That is, with fewer competitors,

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Speaker 1: the incentive to do more by way of developing new

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Speaker 1: seeds and seeds better adapted to particular farming needs will

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Speaker 1: be reduced. They don't have the competition, they won't have

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Speaker 1: the race to develop the new products. The new seeds

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Speaker 1: right Buyer has already agreed to sell a seed and

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Speaker 1: agrochemical business in order to get approval for it's merger

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Speaker 1: with du point Dal had to agree to some major concessions.

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Speaker 1: Is that a roadmap for this deal? Certainly that's a possibility.

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Speaker 1: And now I mean they are has sold some but

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Speaker 1: not all of its seed uh and and a chemical

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Speaker 1: operations to be a s F or as proposed to

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Speaker 1: do that. Uh. And that's certainly the way we're seeing

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Speaker 1: a lot more mergers resolved these days. There are in

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Speaker 1: this in this case the Monsett Obey are there are

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Speaker 1: enough concerned still that overall the impact of the transaction

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Speaker 1: will be just so severe on competition that you do

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Speaker 1: there's no way to fix it. We'll see what the

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Speaker 1: European agencies and the American think about that. There have

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Speaker 1: been calls from lawmakers as well as this time environmental

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Speaker 1: and activist groups to block the deal. Does that put

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Speaker 1: pressure on the EU antitrust authorities or does it seem

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Speaker 1: like ve day Er feels pressure from no one? Oh? Good.

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Speaker 1: Agencies are aware of the political of the politics. UH.

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Speaker 1: When it's consistent with what they're likely to want to do,

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Speaker 1: it's helpful because they're not going to be denounced for

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Speaker 1: doing what they think they ought to do. UH. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, when they decide no, we don't go

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Speaker 1: with that political uh perspective, because it's just not uh

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Speaker 1: a valid concern in the context of this particular transaction.

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Speaker 1: They can't ignore the politics and they're going to get

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Speaker 1: support from a number of other sources. So um, it's

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Speaker 1: it will force sometimes a more thoughtful consideration if you

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Speaker 1: know that you're going to be before a congressional committee

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Speaker 1: or the European Parliament having to explain your decision, so

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Speaker 1: you'll be a little more careful, but it's not likely

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Speaker 1: to drive the decision. Well, what about the fact that

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Speaker 1: this does this come maybe just a little too late

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Speaker 1: because you have the Dow DuPont merger and the camp

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Speaker 1: China's Ingenta merger set to go, So the industry has

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Speaker 1: become even more concentrated, and it was already concentrated. Is

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Speaker 1: one more big deal just one too many? I think

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Speaker 1: that's very much what certainly many of us like myself,

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Speaker 1: who would like to see merger law enforced much more actively,

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Speaker 1: are very concerned about. The industry is being transformed from

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Speaker 1: one where there were four or well five really major

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Speaker 1: players plus a B A s F at the margin,

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Speaker 1: to one that's going to be three, uh, maybe four

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Speaker 1: depending on how strong B A S F turns out

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Speaker 1: to be. And we know from a rowing bodies empirical

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Speaker 1: work that industries with that kind of market structure performed

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Speaker 1: badly high prices, lack of technological innovation, UH consumers In

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Speaker 1: other words, consumers buyers are exploited on one side and

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Speaker 1: we don't get the dynamics that we'd like. Is there

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Speaker 1: growing concern like yours about this antitrust area where we're

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Speaker 1: not just going to go for horizontal or vertical, We're

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Speaker 1: just going to look at the deal itself and what

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Speaker 1: it does. I think that there is a growing awareness.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it dominates yet, but UH Senator Clovature

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Speaker 1: of Minnesota has put in some very good proposals to

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Speaker 1: modify UH antitrust merger law to make it stricter, and

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Speaker 1: received at least I couldn't call it support, but acknowledgement

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Speaker 1: from a senator or in hatch UH that indeed, we

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Speaker 1: really do need to take another look at what's going

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Speaker 1: on with industry structure because concentration is just growing and

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Speaker 1: growing and growing, and we know it has bad effects. Well,

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Speaker 1: that is that is certainly one person that you would

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Speaker 1: like to see on your side in this in this

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Speaker 1: particular area. Now, the FTC hasn't approved the deal in

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Speaker 1: the US either. Could there be any pushback from that agency? Uh? No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's before the Justice Department, any trust division, not

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Speaker 1: the FTC. But yes, I mean, um, what was it

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Speaker 1: three weeks ago? No, a couple of three months ago.

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Speaker 1: The the d o J lawyers were out taking depositions

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Speaker 1: of a number of executives from mont Santo and Bayer.

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Speaker 1: That's what you do if you're thinking there's a serious

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Speaker 1: possibility of bringing a lawsuit. Uh, thank you, Well, we

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Speaker 1: will see and we'll keep following this. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: very interesting area and very important. That's Professor Peter Carsonson

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Speaker 1: of the University of Wisconsin Law School. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen

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Speaker 1: to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg