1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: Col Zone Media. On April twentieth, nineteen ninety five, the 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: front page of almost every newspaper in the country ran 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: the same photograph, a firefighter standing in the rubble with 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: an infant in his arms. Terrorist bomb hits Heartland clues 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: Lacking the headlines, screamed papers ran quotes from anonymous federal 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: law enforcement sources saying the bomber was likely an Islamic extremist. 7 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Government officials speaking off the record confirmed that they suspected 8 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: it was a Jahadist group with ties to Iran. Reporters 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: rushed to get comments from counter terrorism experts, and plenty 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: of them were happy to speculate that only a Muslim 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: could have set off that truck bomb in Oklahoma City. 12 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: But experts in right wing extremism saw something different in 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: the rubble of the Alfred P. Mura building. They were 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: looking at an almost exact recreation of the bombing depicted 15 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: in the Turner Diaries, a novel sold at gun shows 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: and by mail through nazy newsletters, and they were right. 17 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: That first day. Those experts didn't know yet that the 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: bomber had already been arrested, and that he'd been carrying 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: photocopies of his favorite passages from the novel, but they'd 20 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: known immediately that it looked early like the events of 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: the novel had come to life. Two days after the bombing, 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: the novel's author shrugged off any connection, telling a reporter 23 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: who reached him at his compound that it was really 24 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: really grasping to try to make any connection to his book, 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: but he knew, he knew that his book could kill 26 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: because this wasn't the first time it had. I'm Molly Conger, 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: and this is where little guys, this is a story 28 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: about a book, sort of. There are some recurring elements 29 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: on this show that I've hinted at a thousand times 30 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: without really getting into in any detail. It feels like 31 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: some sort of Homeric epithet the way I describe these 32 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: things the same way every time they're mentioned in passing. 33 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: But swift footed Achilles and the wine dark Sea have 34 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: been replaced with miniature portraits of monsters we haven't gotten 35 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: to yet, and The Turner Diaries is one of those. 36 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: It's a book, a novel, work of fiction. It's been 37 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: called by both its fans and critics the bible of 38 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: the racist right, the most important work of white National's 39 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: Propaganda in the English language, and the Blueprint for White Revolution, 40 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: and in all the stories I tell, it's almost always there. 41 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: In the very first episode of this show, Kevin Strom's 42 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: first wife blurted out at dinner with the book's author 43 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: that she hadn't enjoyed it. Dennis Mahon, the klansman who 44 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: spent decades building bombs, said this was the book that 45 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: really opened his eyes. Mass shooters listed in the recommended 46 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: reading appendix of their Rambling manifestos. A South African Nazi 47 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: terrorist group borrowed its name from the plot, unrelated to 48 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: the American Nazi terrorist group who also named itself after 49 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: the group in the book. Aspiring race warriors yearn for 50 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: the Day of the Rope, a phrase coined by the 51 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: narrator of the book to describe the mass public executions 52 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: of those deemed to be race traders. Even the weird 53 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: little guys who don't have the attention span to read 54 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: the novel for themselves have been influenced by it because 55 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: they're steeped in a culture that has revered this book 56 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: for fifty years. But when it comes up, it's only 57 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: ever in passing. Every time we come across this book 58 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: in one of our stories. I'm just asking you to 59 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: trust me when I tell you that it's important, and 60 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: that the pages of this novel are soaked in blood, 61 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: as you're no doubt sick of hearing me say. At 62 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: this point, this show is one long story told out 63 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: of order. There may not even be any reasonable way 64 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: of putting it in order, with all of its interlocking 65 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: pieces across space and time. But I'm trying to figure 66 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: out as I go, and I keep having to double 67 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: back to give you a piece I know you'll need 68 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: before we continue along whatever path I've wandered down in 69 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: a given week. You see, what I had in mind 70 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: for the beginning of the new year was a pretty 71 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: exciting story about a couple of klansmen bungling an attempted 72 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: coup in the Caribbean. It's an adventure that never quite 73 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: made it to the high Seas, and I am looking 74 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: forward to it. But as I started fitting the pieces together, 75 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: I remembered what happened last time I sat down to 76 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: start this story. I need to double back if I 77 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: don't set the stage by telling you some stories about 78 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: Don Black and David Duke and a couple of Canadian 79 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: neo Nazi groups. I'll spend too much time darting off 80 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: down these tangents. You know that children's book if you 81 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: give a musa muffin, maybe you had the one about 82 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: the mouse and the cookie, But we were a moose 83 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: muffin household. That's the one I read, and that's kind 84 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: of what's happening here. You know, the moose needed a 85 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: glass of milk for his muffin. And to tell you 86 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: about this attempted coup, I have to tell you about 87 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: some of the guys first. And if I'm going to 88 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: tell you anything about David Duke or Don Black, I 89 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: have to start with the day they met. But I 90 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: can't even start writing about the rest of their friendship 91 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: because it seems worth mentioning that there was a third 92 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: man in the car with them the day they met, 93 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: and that man was a serial killer. But what you 94 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: are probably asking, does any of that have to do 95 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: with the Turner Diaries? Not much, admittedly, but it has 96 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: everything to do with the sequel. So the coup will 97 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: have to wait because I worked so far backwards on 98 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: this train of thought that before we even get to 99 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: the actual story of the Nazi serial killer who paralyzed 100 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: Larry Flint. We're going to have to talk about this book. 101 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: William Luther Pierce looms large in so many stories about 102 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: white nationalism in the United States. He comes up a lot, 103 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: particularly in the last few months, because I've been writing 104 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: about the American Nazi Party and Pierce was an early member. 105 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: He quit his job as a physicist working on jet 106 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: engines for a defense contractor and moved to Virginia to 107 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: work with George Lincoln Rockwell in the sixties. By the 108 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: mid seventies, he'd established his own organization, National Alliance, and 109 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: until his death in two thousand and two, Pierce exerted 110 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: enormous influence on the extreme right. This will not be 111 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: the last time you hear about William Luther Pierce, but 112 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: today we're just looking at his novels, The Turner Diaries, 113 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: published in nineteen seventy eight, and Hunter in nineteen eighty nine. 114 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: The Turner Diaries was originally written in a serialized format, 115 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: published one chapter at a time in issues of Attack, 116 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: the newsletter for his newly formed white supremacist organization, National Alliance, 117 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy five through nineteen seventy eight. Each issue 118 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: of Attack contained a chunk of the story written under 119 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: the pen name Andrew MacDonald in what is almost certainly 120 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: a crude ripoff of Jack London's Iron Heel. The novel 121 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: is presented as a series of diary entries written by 122 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: the protagonist, a man named Earl Turner. It is, as 123 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: it says, Turner's Diary, and the diary is sandwich between 124 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: a forward and an epilogue written by a historian who 125 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: has unearthed this document one hundred years after the Great 126 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: Revolution that it describes. The found document bit recurs throughout 127 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: the text, with these little parenthetical notes to the reader 128 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: from the historian, helpfully providing context for readers of this 129 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: ancient text, explaining things like the dollar was the basic 130 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: monetary unit in the United States in the Old Era, 131 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: or women's lib was a form of mass psychosis which 132 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: broke out in the last three decades of the Old Era. 133 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: The historian tells us that before he became a martyr 134 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: in the Revolution, Earl Turner was just a rank and 135 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: file member of the Organization, a white nationalist group that 136 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: was at war with the system, which is the incredibly 137 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: creative name that the novel uses to refer broadly to 138 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: the government, but also the media and whatever other nebulous 139 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: societal forces are being controlled and weaponized by the novel's 140 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: true villain, the Jews. Turner's first diary entry provides a 141 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: lot of exposition. The author probably should have found a 142 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: way to work that into the history briads forward, but 143 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm not here to backseat drive the terrorism Bible. In 144 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: that first entry, Turner is writing in nineteen ninety one, 145 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: and he tells his diary that it's been two years 146 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: since the co Enact outlawed ownership of guns. The system 147 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: deputized armed squads of black men to carry out gun 148 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: confiscation raids, rounding up and arresting thousands of white gun owners. 149 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: From there, the book follows Turner and the organization as 150 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: they ramp up their terroristic activity. Turner is inducted into 151 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: the secret inner circle of the organization called the Order. 152 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: He's captured by the government but manages to escape, and 153 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: as punishment for allowing himself to be captured alive, he's 154 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: assigned a suicide mission, which he completes, thus securing his 155 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: place as a martyr for the cause. Now I have 156 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: to confess for all the commentary I've read a this book, 157 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: both by academics and the books fans. I'd never actually 158 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: sat down and just read it like a book. I mean, 159 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: I know the broad strokes, I know what's in it. 160 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: I've read passages of it. I've read things referring to 161 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: passages of it. I just don't read a lot of novels, 162 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: and this was definitely not on my list for when 163 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: I was going to sit down and read a novel. 164 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: But picking through it more carefully now, it's actually very 165 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: funny how much of himself Pierce reveals, probably by accident. 166 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of inexperienced writers, people who are 167 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: trying their hand at fiction for the first time, end 168 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: up spilling a lot of their own psyche into the 169 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: protagonist's inner monologue. Like I said, I don't read a 170 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of fiction, so I don't quite have the language 171 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: for this, but I think you can sort of feel 172 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: it when the author hasn't actually invested in world building. 173 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: They haven't built a fictional world for the story so 174 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: much as they have just published their own fantasy. Do 175 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Earl Turner is afraid of 176 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: all the same things Pierce is afraid of. He identifies 177 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: the same solutions Pierce believes should be implemented in the 178 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: real world. He hates the same people, lives in the 179 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: same area, holds a similar profession, and even hides his 180 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: guns the same way. Earl Turner's description of these underground 181 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: weapons caches are really similar to something I read in 182 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: a memoir by the ex wife of a man who 183 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: lived on Pierce's Nazi compound in the nineties. She wrote 184 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: that one of the tasks the women were expected to 185 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: work on when they weren't busy with their children was 186 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: building these watertight containers that were used to protect the 187 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: guns they buried underground. What most people know about the 188 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: Turner Diaries, though, are the passages that have been fired 189 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: real life re enactments in the book. The organization's first 190 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: real attack on the system was a bombing, and the 191 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: book describes in great detail how the organization went about 192 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: sourcing the materials for a forty four hundred pound ammonium 193 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: nitrate bomb. The book describes how they assembled the bomb 194 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: and how they placed the bomb in the back of 195 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: the truck and then parked that truck outside of a 196 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: government building, knowing it would kill hundreds of mostly innocent people. 197 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: Earl Turner's bomb went off a little after nine am 198 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: outside the FBI headquarters, killing seven hundred people. When Timothy 199 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: McVeigh brought those pages to life, he built a remarkably 200 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,119 Speaker 1: similar bomb, placed it in the back of a remarkably 201 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: similar truck, and parked it outside of a federal building. 202 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: A little after nine am. He killed one hundred and 203 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: sixty eight people at a federal building in Oklahoma City. 204 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: After his bomb went off, Earl Turner wrote in his diary, 205 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: all day yesterday and most of today, we watched the 206 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: TV coverage of rescue crews bringing the dead and injured 207 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: out of the building. It is a heavy burden of 208 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: responsibility for us to bear, since most of the victims 209 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: of our bomb were only pawns who were no more 210 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: committed to the sick philosophy or the racially destructive goals 211 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: of the system than we are. But there is no 212 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: way we can destroy the system without hurting many thousands 213 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: of innocent people. No way, And maybe Timothy McVeigh was 214 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: thinking about that passage when he selected his target. Maybe 215 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: Earl Turner's words soothed his conscience as he walked calmly 216 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: away from the truck, knowing it was parked directly underneath 217 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: the building's daycare center. He would later deny targeting the 218 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: day care center, claiming he hadn't even known it was 219 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: then everything I've read leads me to believe that's a lie. 220 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: He described his victims the same way Earl Turner did. 221 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: He'd been obsessed with the novel for years before he 222 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: built that bomb, and when he was arrested on the 223 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: day of the bombing, police found a sealed envelope in 224 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: his car. He was full of right wing political pamphlets, 225 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: news clippings about the siege at Waco, and copy of 226 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence, and a photocopy of pages sixty 227 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: one and sixty two of the Turner Diaries. McVeigh had 228 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: underlined a passage on that page that read, in part, 229 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: but the real value of all our attacks today lies 230 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: in the psychological impact, not the immediate casualties. But Timothy 231 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: McVeigh wasn't the only man to take Pierce's novel as 232 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: marching orders. He wasn't even the first. Pierre shrugged off 233 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: questions about McVeagh, telling reporters he had no idea why 234 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: a man he'd never heard of called the National Alliance 235 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: hotline repeatedly in the days before the bombing, and maybe 236 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: he's telling the truth. I'm sure they never met and 237 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: they probably never spoke. Mcvay's relationship with Pierce was one directional. 238 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: He read the book, but there's no doubt at all 239 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: that William Luther Pierce personally mentored the first man who 240 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: tried to become Earl Turner, the first man who built 241 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: bombs and spilled blood in the name of the Turner Diaries. 242 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: The speech you are about to hear was given on Sunday, 243 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: September fourth, nineteen eighty three by Robert Matthews at the 244 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: General Convention of the National Alliance in Arlington, Virginia. A 245 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: few weeks later, Matthews declared war on the enemies of 246 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: our race, went underground with a handful of companions called 247 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: the Silent Brotherhood, and began fighting. His fight lasted until 248 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: he was burned to death by a secret police task 249 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 2: force a little over a year later, on December eighth, 250 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. 251 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: That's Pierce himself speaking years later, adding commentary to a 252 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: recording he published of the speech that launched a year 253 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: long terror campaign. Robert J. Matthews joined Pierce's organization, National 254 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: Alliance in nineteen eighty and the pair had active personal 255 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: correspondence for years and met in person several times. When 256 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: Matthew stood to make a speech at the National Alliance 257 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: convention in nineteen eighty three, it was at Pierce's request. 258 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: This was something they had discussed extensively ahead of time. 259 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: In his later recollection of that day, you heard Pierce 260 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: call the group Matthews formed a few weeks later, the 261 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: Silent Brotherhood, and that was one name for it, but 262 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: it's best known as the Order. In truth, Matthews didn't 263 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: want to give the group a name at all, at 264 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: least according to former members who spoke about its founding 265 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: after Matthews died. Giving it a name would make it 266 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: easier to talk about, and he didn't want to encourage 267 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: anyone to talk about what they were about to do. 268 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: But if they had to call it something, he told 269 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: them they should call it the Order, like the secret 270 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: group within the organization in the Turner Diaries, the book 271 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: they'd all read, and just a quick aside. He probably 272 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: should have just left it at the Order, and that 273 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: is what they called it for the first full year, 274 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: but a few months before he died, he decided it 275 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: needed some kind of formal name, and I think he 276 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: fell victim to a problem I see pretty often with 277 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: guys like this. They love Nazi Germany, but they refused 278 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: to learn German. So when he was scrounging around trying 279 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: to find a dignified and clever and properly hit Larian 280 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: name for his organization, he thought of a book he'd 281 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: seen on a shelf at one of the member's houses. 282 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: It was a book of photographs of members of the 283 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: SS and the book was called ven alla Bruderschweigen, which 284 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: is a portion of a line and a poem written 285 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: in eighteen fourteen by German poet Maximilian Gottfried from Schenckendorf. 286 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: The phrase, in the context of the poem translates to 287 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: when all brothers are silent. But if you just pull 288 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: out two words from the phrase, it doesn't really mean anything. 289 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean, each one of those individual words has a meaning. 290 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: Ruder means brother, Schweigen means silence, But it doesn't mean 291 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: silent brothers. Ruderschweigen just means brother silent. It's just two 292 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: unrelated nouns. But that is what they had stamped onto 293 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: the giant gold medallions that they all wore with pride. 294 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: But in that recording, Pierce calls it the Silent Brotherhood, again, 295 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: a name it had only briefly. Maybe he thought that 296 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: sounded more dignified. But I think the more likely explanation 297 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: is that he knew calling it the Order would draw 298 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: attention to the fact that he was involved, and he 299 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: was trying to distance himself from what really looked like 300 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: a terror cell that had been formed at his direction. 301 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: At the very least, it was clearly inspired by his work, 302 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: and he never did like taking credit for the actions 303 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: he encouraged younger, bolder men to take. But regardless, the 304 00:20:53,359 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: names are interchangeable. The Silent Brotherhood Bruderschweigen the Order, and 305 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: it was Robert Matthew's speech in nineteen eighty three that 306 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: brought the Order to life. 307 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 3: So Kinsman Duty calls the future is now. If months 308 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 3: from now you have not yet fully committed yourself to 309 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 3: the alliance and the responsibilities thereof, then you have an 310 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: effect not only betrayed your race, you have betrayed yourself. 311 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: So stand up like men and drive the enemy into 312 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 3: the sea. 313 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: In the fourteen months or so from the founding of 314 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: the group to the fiery death of its leader. They 315 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 1: acted out the instructions in the book. That speech was 316 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: given to a room full of men who were already 317 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: members of National Alliance, a white nationalist organization. So he's 318 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: proposing a smaller secret group, one that is more focused 319 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: on revolutionary action. He's proposing the formation of a group 320 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: within a gree just as Earl Turner was drafted from 321 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: the organization into its secret inner core the Order, and 322 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: just like Earl Turner's brothers and arms did in the book, 323 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: The Order funded their activities through robbery and counterfeiting. They 324 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: never did get very good at counterfeiting, but they pulled 325 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: in millions of dollars from a series of armored car robberies. 326 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: They bombed a movie theater and a Seneca. They planned 327 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: to carry out a series of assassinations, killings that would 328 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: in a direct sense, take out their perceived enemies of 329 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: the white race and rid the world of these undesirable elements, 330 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: but also to destabilize society to push the country closer 331 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: to an all out race war. They didn't make a 332 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: lot of progress on assassinating Henry Kissinger, shooting a Rockefeller, 333 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: or a rothschild or killing television producer Norman Lear, but 334 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: they did shoot and kill Denver talk radio personality Alan berg. 335 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: Berg was targeted not only because he was Jewish, which 336 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: would have been enough on his own to earn him 337 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: a spot on their list, but specifically berg had invited 338 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: a pair of Christian identity preachers onto his radio show, 339 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: and he'd embarrassed them pretty badly. The whole story of 340 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: the Order is something worth revisiting in greater detail. Matthews 341 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: is still widely celebrated as a martyr within the movement. 342 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: Although it was short lived, the Order, the one that 343 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: existed in real life, really shaped the landscape of white 344 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: nationalist terror for years to come. And I still haven't 345 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: watched the twenty twenty four movie starring Nicholas Holt as 346 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: Robert Matthews and Jude Law as the FBI agent who 347 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: tracks him down. So maybe I'll watch that and we 348 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: can talk about it. I wonder now that I'm thinking 349 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: about the parallels in more detail, Robert Matthews thought about 350 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: Earl Turner at the end. He was holed up in 351 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: a safe house on Whidbey Island off the coast of 352 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: Seattle when the FEDS finally caught up to him, negotiations 353 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: broke down. He refused to come out. He put on 354 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: a gas mask and ignored the volleys of tear gas, 355 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: and he ignored the pleas of his friends and accomplices 356 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: that the FBI brought to the scene to try to 357 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: reason with him. He wouldn't come out. They only meant 358 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: to start a small fire. They wanted to smoke him out. 359 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: I really don't think they could have known the flare 360 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: they fired through the broken window was going to land 361 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: in a box of hand grenades. When Robert Matthews climbed 362 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: into the bathtub to seek refuge from the flames, did 363 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: he imagine he was Earl Turner in the cockpit, preparing 364 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: to die in the blast when he dropped a nuclear 365 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: bomb on the Pentagon. How much did any of them 366 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: really think about Earl Turner? And to what extent did 367 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: Peers intend for the novel to motivate real world action. 368 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: We can't really know. And the problem with trying to 369 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: sort out anyone's motivation for anything is that people lie. 370 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: They lie to themselves, They lie to escape responsibility, They 371 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: lie to create propaganda. They write fictions that glorify their 372 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: martyrs and exonerate themselves and cast their enemies as villains 373 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: and fools. Pierce calls it the Silent Brotherhood, because to 374 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: call it the Order would be an admission that they'd 375 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: done it for him. He never admitted any involvement. He 376 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: denied receiving a Duffel bag full of cash from Matthews 377 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: after one of the armored car robberies, despite the obvious 378 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: fact that he used that money to purchase the land 379 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: that would become his Nazi compound in West Virginia. And 380 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: the degree to which the Turner Diaries was truly viewed 381 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: as a Bible as a manual within the group is fuzzy. 382 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: Was this treated as scripture or were they being tongue 383 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: in cheek when they referred to themselves using the name 384 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: of a fictional group from a novel. It depends on 385 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: who you believe. Pierce himself tells different stories depending on 386 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: his mood. He almost seems to delight in being impossible 387 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: to pin down reading some of these old quotes. I 388 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: swear you can hear him winking. In his book Gods 389 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: of the Blood, Swedish historian Massius Gardel writes that quote 390 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: the extent to which Matthews and the Brooders identified with 391 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: the Order of the Turner Diaries in an ultimate goal 392 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: to overthrow the US government is uncertain retrospectively. In prison, 393 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: Order members differed widely in their assessments of what they 394 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: had intended, ranging from modest hopes of contributing financially to 395 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: racist organizations to optimistic expectations of igniting an armed Aryan revolution. 396 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: And for that book, Gardell was able to interview several 397 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: members of the Order who were still alive to talk 398 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: about it in the late nineties. He got a different 399 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: answer from every gray haired old Nazi who was willing 400 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: to take his call. Gary Yarborough told him the novel 401 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: was just pulp fiction. David Tates and the group mainly 402 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: just wanted money, and all the other stuff was secondary. 403 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: But Randy Dewey was adamant that the Turner Diaries had 404 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: really been a bible, particularly for Robert Matthews. It had 405 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: functioned as a blueprint for their Holy War, he said. 406 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: In a separate interview, former Order member Richard Kemp told 407 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: Gardell quote, although I'm embarrassed to say that that's what 408 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: we've patterned ourselves after, I think as far as the 409 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: Turner Diary is being a guide, I think he was 410 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: more than a guide. All our criminal activities were patterned 411 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: after that, and Gardell leaves it at that their self 412 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: reported motivations and beliefs varied. That seems to be true, 413 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: and that's to be expected. I think within any group 414 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: there are going to be varying levels of commitment to 415 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: the core tenets, right. But what sticks out to me 416 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: in Gardell's book is that of the four members he 417 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: was able to get an answer from, two of them 418 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: were in the room the night the Order was founded. 419 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: Randall Dewey and Richard Kemp were founding members, so maybe 420 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: they had a clearer idea of the original vision. Another member, 421 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: Bruce Pearce, who isn't quoted in Gardell's book, was carrying 422 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: a copy of the Turner Diaries on his person when 423 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: he was arrested. Order member Randall Rader kept a stack 424 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: of dozens of copies on hand so he could give 425 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: one to anyone who visited. When new members took their 426 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: oath to the group, they were presented with their own 427 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: copy at a swearing in ceremony. The book obviously meant 428 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: something to them. When Timothy McVeagh went on trial, his 429 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: defense team sought to downplay the significance of the novel. 430 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: His lawyer argued that it was no more a blueprint 431 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: for a bombing than Lady Chatterley's Lover could teach the 432 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: reader how to make love. I haven't read that one, 433 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: so I won't weigh in, and I don't know enough 434 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: about bomb making to tell you how critical a distinction 435 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: it is. That mcvay's bomb used nitromethane, which wasn't mentioned 436 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: in the novel. But as hard as mcvay's defense team 437 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: tried to emphasize these little differences, it's hard to ignore 438 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: the fact that he spent years obsessed with the Turner Diaries. 439 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: He slept with a copy of it under his pillow, 440 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: He talked to it about anyone who would listened. He 441 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: recommended it to his army buddies. He gave people copies 442 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: of it. He traveled the country selling it at gun shows. 443 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: He cut out, copied, and annotated his favorite passages, carrying 444 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: them with him on the morning of the bombing. It 445 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: wasn't just a book, It was the book. In a 446 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen paper for the International Center for Counter Terrorism 447 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: researcher Jay M. Berger connects the text to other attacks. 448 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: In addition to the hundred and sixty eight people killed 449 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: in the Oklahoma City bombing, the Turner Diaries figured prominently 450 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: in the motivation behind at least thirty three other murders, 451 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: including the ten people killed in Germany in the early 452 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: two thousands by a group called the National Socialist Underground. 453 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: In one particularly grim case, we have the murderer's own 454 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: words in the heat of the moment. This is a 455 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: crime that I hesitate to even describe. Years ago, I 456 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: went to this cursed sounding event. It was a program 457 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: put on by the diversity office of my local university's 458 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: police department. They hadn't advertised the event at all, but 459 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: it was open to the public, and I'm very nosy. 460 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: So I was there and I was the only person there. 461 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: I sat in a plastic chair and an auditorium that 462 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: was meant to see hundreds, and I sobbed through a 463 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: presentation from Leuvon Harris. She's the younger sister of James 464 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: Byrd Junior. She came prepared with a slide show of 465 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: family pictures. Her brother, James was a mamma's boy and 466 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: he loved his sisters. He played the trumpet, and he 467 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: taught his sister Melinda how to play the piano. He 468 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: lost two toes in a bicycle accident as a child, 469 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: but he never let his limp get to him. I 470 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: was nine when James Bird was murdered. I lived in 471 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: Texas at the time, and I remember seeing it on 472 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 1: the news, reading the details of his death again. Now, 473 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to his sister for keeping part of 474 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: him alive, because if I have to tell you how 475 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: he died, at least now you know too that he 476 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: played the piano at his family reunion and his mom 477 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: taught Sunday school. On the day James Bird died, he 478 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: accepted a ride from a truck that passed him as 479 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: he was walking home. But instead of taking him home, 480 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: three white men drove him out to the middle of 481 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: nowhere and they beat him until he appeared to lose consciousness. 482 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: And as he's lying there in the dirt, one of 483 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: the men, Sean Berry, asked if they were just going 484 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to leave him there, and John William King replied, we're starting. 485 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: And the Turner diaries early as he pulled a heavy 486 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: chain out of the bed of his truck and attached 487 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: it to bird's ankles. He was making a joke. He 488 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: was about to drag a man to death, and he 489 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: was making a joke. He was so deeply immersed in 490 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: the world of the Turner Diaries that it didn't require 491 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: any explanation. That's all he said. It was a reference 492 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: ready at hand. It was understood what he meant. He 493 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: was going to lynch this black man, just like the 494 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: heroes in the novel would have done. When David Copeland 495 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: confessed to the nineteen ninety nine London nail bombings, a 496 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: series of attacks that killed three and wounded one hundred 497 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: and forty others, he told the police, if you've read 498 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: the Turner Diaries, you know the year two thousand, they'll 499 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: be uprising. And all that racial violence in the streets 500 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: Miam was political. It was to cause a racial war 501 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: this country, beginning with the Order in nineteen eighty four 502 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: through this paper's publication date in twenty sixteen. Burger attributes 503 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: over two hundred deaths to the Turner Diaries. And in 504 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: that paper he wrote, quote, the Turner Diaries does not 505 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: attempt to persuade readers that they should be racist. Rather, 506 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: it assumes readers have already made an identity choice. Instead, 507 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: it seeks to persuade readers that imminent violent action is 508 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: a rational choice. And that's such an interesting point that 509 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: I don't think would have occurred to me. It's racist propaganda, 510 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,439 Speaker 1: but it's not propaganda aimed at making you racist, which 511 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: is what most racist propaganda is. Burger argues that the 512 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: novel has no actual ideological framework in that regard. I mean, 513 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: it's racist, right, grotesquely, so violently, nauseatingly graphically racist, but 514 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: that's just sort of a given. It doesn't actually say why. 515 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: Earl Turner doesn't tell you why he hates. He just does, 516 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: and he assumes you do too. The goal of the 517 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: propaganda is not to get you to be racist, it's 518 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: to convince you that you should do violence about it. 519 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: So much of Pierce's other work is densely packed with 520 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: these explanations and rationales and flawed historical analyzes. And when 521 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: you read Christian identity texts, for example, they twist themselves 522 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: into these theological knots explaining why black people aren't really human, 523 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: and they offer pages of biblical interpretation trying to force 524 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: a single word to explain their theory of the racist universe. 525 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: But Earl Turner doesn't do that. The reader brings his 526 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: own ideological baggage to the book, and it fills in 527 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: those gaps seamlessly. Earl Turner doesn't have to tell you 528 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: why you hate black people. He just explains how to 529 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: build the bomb. The question of how much blame a 530 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: book can truly bear for the actions of its readers 531 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: is a thorny one. But if any book can be 532 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: said to have motivated any action, if that's a possibility 533 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: you're willing to consider, then this book has a body 534 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: count in the hundreds. The degree to which different scholars 535 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: are willing to place that blame varies, but most agree 536 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: there's blame to be had. There may be other holdouts. 537 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: But in my research this week I came across two 538 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: authors in particular, who seem to take Pierce's word for 539 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: it when he says the book was never meant to 540 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: cause real world violence. One of them, I think we 541 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: can discount right off the bat. Robert S. Griffin, a 542 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: professor of education at the University of Vermont, wrote the 543 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: Authorized Biography of William Luther Pierce. A self published book 544 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: called The Fame of a dead man's deeds, and Griffin 545 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: holds himself out as an unbiased observer, a scholar who's 546 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: interested in the subject but doesn't support Pierce's cause. He 547 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: called the book a work of cultural anthropology. Whether or 548 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: not he was racist before he spent a month interviewing 549 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: Pierce on his Nazi compound, I couldn't tell you, but 550 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: he certainly was. Afterwards. Heidi Birich, the director of the 551 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: Southern Poverty Law Center at the time, outright called Griffin 552 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: a neo Nazi, and I'm inclined to agree. All of 553 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: his published work prior to the year two thousand was 554 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: about education, that's his field of study. But after he 555 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: self published this Nazis biography, he mostly wrote about white 556 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: nationalist topics. A later collection of essays called Living White, 557 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: featured pieces with titles like Rearing Honorable White Children and 558 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: Reading Rockwell. Reviews of his biography of Pierce call it 559 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: a hasiography, an obsequious, fawning, one sided justification of Pierce's beliefs, 560 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: and that's not one person's review. Each one of those 561 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: descriptions is from a different, damning review, and it is 562 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: regrettably one of the most thorough accounts of Pierce's life. 563 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: It is a rich text. I have actually consulted it 564 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: frequently over the last few months, but you can't trust 565 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: it any more than you would trust something written by 566 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 1: Pierce himself. The author never questions, never contradicts, never fact 567 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: checks or pushes back. He may as well have just 568 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: ghostwritten Pierce's autobiography. There are whole chapters where every word 569 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: is in between quotation marks. In the book, Pierce tells 570 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: Griffin that The Turner Diaries was just a novel. It 571 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: was a work of pure fiction. It can't be interpreted 572 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: as any form of advocacy. But Pierce also gave an 573 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: interview to Matius Gardel that same year, and when he 574 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: spoke with Gardell, Pierce readily admitted that he understood his 575 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 1: novels to be a way to teach people, to get 576 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: them to see the world through the eyes of the 577 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: protagonist as he makes decisions or solves a problem, so 578 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: that the reader can experience that thought process and be 579 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,959 Speaker 1: carried along with the character and be made to see 580 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: things the way the character sees them. And that's why 581 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: I have so much trouble trusting the academic papers on 582 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: the subject authored by a political scientist named George Michael, 583 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: citing Griffin's book, which he calls quote excellent, Michael laments 584 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: that there remains so much confusion among academics about where 585 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: Pierce truly stood on the topic of terrorism, writing quote 586 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: Much has been made about Pierce's novel, The Turner Diaries. 587 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: It is frequently referred to as a blueprint for revolution 588 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: and the bible of the racialist right. Despite these characterizations, 589 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: there is really little practical advice for would be revolutionaries 590 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: that can be gleaned from the book. 591 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: Now. 592 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure where he got that idea or if 593 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: he read the same book I did. Because while Pierce 594 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: denies that McVeigh built the exact bomb described in the book, 595 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: he readily admitted in an interview for Rolling Stone that 596 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: you can absolutely build a functioning bomb based on the 597 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: text of the novel. He contends only that it would 598 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: not be that particular bomb. In a footnote in one 599 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: of Michael's papers, he claims the documentary evidence does not 600 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: support the idea that Pierce believed there was value in 601 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: revolutionary violence, citing in support only a dismissive comment Pierce 602 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: once made about James Mason, the author of siege. Michael 603 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: doesn't bother to mention at this juncture that Pierce had 604 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: been Mason's mentor that siege really only exists because Pierce 605 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: took Mason under his wing as a teenager. He may 606 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: be half right, though, I think William Luther Pierce got 607 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: smarter as he got older. He got more cautious. He 608 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: stopped admitting that he supported terrorism, he stopped calling for 609 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: it in public in his own published writing. But I'm 610 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: not sure a man who was an arms dealer, who 611 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: built bombs in his basement, and was for decades the 612 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: leader of a neo Nazi organization linked to so many 613 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: acts of terrorism, is someone we can trust to answer 614 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: honestly when asked in public how much he enjoys the 615 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: terrorism committed in his name. But Pierce has been dead 616 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: for twenty five years, so I guess we can agree 617 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: to disagree. In another article, Michael dismisses the idea that 618 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 1: the Turner Diaries was intended as a blueprint for violence. 619 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: The evidence provided in the paper is a page long 620 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: direct quote from Pierce, taken from an interview with the author. 621 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: It was Pierce's response to being asked if he wrote 622 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: the novel as a blueprint for violence. Pierce's answer is 623 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: long and rambling, and it's mostly not actually an answer 624 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: to the question at all. But at the end of 625 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 1: what is and I cannot emphasize this enough a full 626 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: page long quote in an article that is only eighteen 627 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: pages long, Pierce says it was not intended from the 628 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: start to be anything except an experiment in getting people 629 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: to absorb ideas through this recreational reading. They won't read 630 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: a serious head tooral or a serious historical feature. They 631 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: will read an adventure story. So you slip the ideas 632 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: into the adventure story. In the dialogue, and Michael apparently 633 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: interprets this answer as support for his thesis that the 634 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 1: book is just a story and not a blueprint for violence. 635 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: But what does Pierce actually say. It's long, and it's 636 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: easy to get lost, But what is he saying. He 637 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: says it was an experiment in getting people to absorb ideas. 638 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: They won't read an editorial, they won't read philosophy or history, 639 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: but they'll read an adventure story. So he slipped the 640 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: ideas into the adventure story. He doesn't say what those 641 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: ideas are, but we read the book, we know what 642 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 1: those ideas are He's talking about hiding the message inside 643 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: a fictional dialogue like you'd hide a dog's pill and 644 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: a piece of cheese. So he's admitting that it isn't 645 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: just cheese, it isn't just a story. And the ideas 646 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: being smuggled into the reader's head are the ones that 647 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: form this blueprint of violence. The ideas he's talking about 648 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: are ideas for different kinds of violence that you should do. 649 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: He's shaking his head no, but he's saying yes. And 650 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: this is why you can't take a Nazi at his word. 651 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: So it should come as no surprise that both of 652 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: these authors, Pierce's biographer Robert S. Griffin and this political 653 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: scientist George Michael, they both credulously repeat Pierce's denial that 654 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 1: the protagonist in his second novel is based on a 655 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: real person. Now, part of the slipperiness of Pierce's own 656 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: accounting of events is that his approach genuinely did shift 657 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,760 Speaker 1: over time. He was a leading voice in the movement 658 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: for more than forty years. He had to adapt to 659 00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: the political landscape around him. His core value remained relatively stable, 660 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: but he matured and his rhetorical strategies changed. Robert Matthews 661 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,399 Speaker 1: may have been Earl Turner, but Earl turners martyrdom brought 662 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: about the White Revolution, and Robert Matthews burnt to a 663 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: crisp piing in a bathtub. The other members of the 664 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: Order went to prison. They may be sometimes remembered as 665 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: heroes and martyrs and proud Aryan warriors or whatever, But 666 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: there was no revolution. There was no White utopia afterwards, 667 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: and Pierce himself was never charged with a crime, but 668 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: he was under investigation for years. Members of the Order 669 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: went on trial. The FBI and the ATF raided a 670 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: compound belonging to the Covenant the Sword and the Arm 671 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: of the Lord, a group with connections to members of 672 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: the Order. The investigation into the crimes of the Order 673 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: and the alleged plot by members of the Covenant the 674 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: Sword in the Arm of the Lord to poison the 675 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: water supply with cyanide led two sedition charges against fourteen 676 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: leaders from all across the movement. Those cases all fell apart, 677 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,919 Speaker 1: and Pierce himself was never actually charged, and a couple 678 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 1: of people went to prison for things like murdering a cop. 679 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: But it was a tense time and there was a 680 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: very real possibility in the mid to late eighties that 681 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: the government would connect Pierce to an act of terrorism, 682 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: and I think that explains why his second novel was 683 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: so different. Hunter wasn't published until nineteen eighty nine, but 684 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: he told his own biographer that he started working on 685 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: it in nineteen eighty four. He didn't elaborate on that, 686 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: but it's not hard to imagine. Right in nineteen eighty four, 687 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: members of the Order are getting rounded up. Matthews died, 688 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: Pierce took the cash that he'd gotten from the armored 689 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: truck robbery and bought a massive tract of undeveloped land 690 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 1: and the mountains of West Virginia. His protege had failed, 691 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: and he retreated to the hills to reflect on the 692 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 1: need for tactical changes in the wake of this government crackdown. 693 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: In his doctoral dissertation, extremism scholar Jeffrey Kaplan suggested that 694 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,400 Speaker 1: the world of the Turner Diaries is one where a 695 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: mass revolutionary movement can successfully bring about a revolution. The 696 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 1: hero dies, but the movement prevails, and the narrator tells 697 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: you that there was a white utopia on the other side. 698 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 1: But after the failure of the order in real life. 699 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,400 Speaker 1: He's trying to find his footing in this new political landscape, 700 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: so he writes a story modeled after the newly popular 701 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: idea of leaderless resistance, a lone gunman who can't trust anyone. 702 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: There's no martyrdom, no victory, no utopia, just violence. Hunter 703 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: tells the story of Oscar Jeger, a lone wolf killer 704 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: on a mission to murder inter racial couples. The novel 705 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: was dedicated to a man named Joseph Paul Franklin, and 706 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 1: he wrote on the dedication page quote to Joseph Paul Franklin, 707 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,800 Speaker 1: the lone hunter who saw his duty as a white 708 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: man and did what a responsible son of his race 709 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:20,840 Speaker 1: must do. Between nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty, Joseph 710 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: Paul Franklin murdered more than twenty people. He targeted, mainly 711 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: in a racial couples, but he also shot civil rights 712 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: activists Rob Banks, and bombed a synagogue. Despite putting Franklin's 713 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: name on the dedication page, Pierce flatly denied that he'd 714 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,479 Speaker 1: based the character on Franklin. His credulous biographer didn't press 715 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: the issue. Griffin didn't ask why the novel opens with 716 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: a double murder that perfectly mirrors one that Franklin committed 717 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: in real life, and he doesn't even mention that Pierce 718 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: knew him. We'll pick back up next week with the 719 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: true true story that inspired William Luther Pierce's second novel, 720 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: starting in a bus station parking lot where a budding 721 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: serial killer first met a teenage Don Black while they 722 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: waited for David Duke to pick them up in his 723 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: dad's car. Weird Little Guys is a production of Cool 724 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 1: Zone Media and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by 725 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: me Ally Coner. Our executive producers are Sophie Lettreman and 726 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: Robert Evans. The show is edited by the wildly talented 727 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 1: Rory Gagan. The theme music was composed by Brad Dickert. 728 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 1: You can email me at Weird Blue Guys podcast at 729 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. I will definitely read it, but I 730 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: probably won't answer. It is nothing personal. You can exchange 731 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about the show with other listeners on the 732 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: Weird Little Guy subrenet. It just don't post anything that's 733 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: going to make you one of my Weird Little guys, 734 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: and honestly, don't read the Turner Diaries. It's not worth it. 735 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: Do something fun.