1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. 3 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: Let's hear it for our super producer Max the duellist 4 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: Williams always dueling this guy. 5 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: Man, I can't even like I had to rock that 6 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: tall hat. He's already so tall. Did he really need 7 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: that flex It seems a little odd. 8 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you gotta wonder if he wore platform shoes too. 9 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: Or was that incorporated into his height, like his his 10 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: head just the tall like a cone head kind of sitsues. 11 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: And he had to wear the hat to look a 12 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: little more normal. 13 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: Were actually four to eleven? 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just talking about the du roll of hats. 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 2: Sometimes they can sort of serve as helmet as as 16 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: cosmetic cover up for any unsightly lumps or bruises. 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, no, no, no, we're all friends here. I'll 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: come clean with our Ridiculous Historians. I'm Ben, and I 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: have repeatedly hit my head on some heavy things while 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: moving into a new place, so I'm wearing a hat 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: until the contusions go away. 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: We support you Ben in your convalescence. 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Thank you, and you're you're no proud of. 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: We're going to talk today in live and in person 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: in our brand new super Fancy podcast studio. We're going 27 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: to talk about one of our favorite presidents, Abe Lincoln, 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: who looks weird, clean shaven. 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, very It's like his face is like 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: a California raisin. It's very weird. You've got a very 31 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: small chin. Yeah. That's the thing about people with beers. 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: They often don't have strong chins. I for one, do 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: not have a strong chin. 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: I've never seen it. 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: Well, you never will. 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: I probably never will. 37 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: That's why the beard adds a little bit of length 38 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: that gives an extension to my face. Without it, it 39 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: would look like a shrunken head. 40 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: I've got a I've got a pretty I got a 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: chin that kind of insists upon itself, a prognatic jaw. 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you, I have immense respect for 43 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: you with your beard game, because I haven't had a 44 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: beard this big or this long since I lived in 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: Central America, and it's just driving me crazy. I gotta 46 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: find my racers, my Manscape razors. 47 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: Ah. 48 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: Yes, of course, it brought to you not by Manscape, 49 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: but they make good products, not meant to be used 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: on the face, though they make that really clear in 51 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: their ad copy. It's for some other part of your 52 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: body that eludes me. 53 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: Well, I'm a bit of a maverick, yess. I've always 54 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: said that, so so is Abe Lincoln. There we go, 55 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: segue Abe Lincoln. Is I believe correct me on this 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: the tallest or one of the tallest presidents in American 57 00:02:59,280 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: history so far. 58 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 2: I believe our boy lb j and Old Jumbo himself 59 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: known for having large parts, was tied with Lincoln at 60 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: six ' four. And if I'm not mistaken, correct me 61 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, Max, one of the more recent presidential 62 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: figures is also up there. 63 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 64 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: The forty fourth president is six four himself. 65 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: Oh wow, So we are maxed out at six four 66 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: for presidential height. 67 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: Any anything taller is just too freakish for America. That's 68 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: why there. 69 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: Until we elects president Shaquille O'Neill seven one, I'm looking 70 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: forward to that. 71 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, be careful, be careful, Max. We've said, we've had 72 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: to say this in interviews before. Shaquille O'Neill runs. 73 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: At land Well, he owns one particular Papa John's restaurant, 74 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: and it says on the outside, Shaquille O'Neill's Papa john he. 75 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: Owns that Krispy Kreme that burned down and is getting 76 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: rebuilt on Ponts too. 77 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: Got it? And maybe I'm making up the Papa John statement. 78 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: I almost positive that it says on the outside of it, 79 00:03:58,920 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: Shaquille O'Neals. 80 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: But he does ads for Papa Johnson, and in his 81 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: ads he's always like, yeah, no, I'm an owner and stuff. 82 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: So yeah, okay, okay, I didn't make it up. 83 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: Good to know. Let's do the sound cute. 84 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 3: That seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge. 85 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: It's just for you right now. The fact perfect, all right, 86 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: Abe Lincoln tall guy also happened to be president. You've 87 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: heard of him in previous Ridiculous History episodes. We do 88 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: know this bit of a tangent, but we do know 89 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: there are studies proving interesting things about the physical appearance 90 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: of a president. Right, You're not going to be president 91 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: if you have facial hair. Currently in the US, it's 92 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: really tough taller people. Taller candidates tend to do better 93 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: in polls. 94 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. My kid actually went through a period 95 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: where she was very suspicious of tall people. You know, 96 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: I think it was during the pandemic, and maybe a 97 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 2: tall person brandishing a mask does have a bit of 98 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: a sinister quality, especially if you're on the shorter side 99 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: of stature. But I think she's gotten over that. But yeah, 100 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: another thing that comes with being a tall president is 101 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: you's got pretty sweet reach. 102 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, You've got to reach, and if 103 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: your footwork is good, you can be a real monster 104 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: in the boxing ring or wrestling. We talked about doing that, 105 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: or as today's tale shows us, in a duel in 106 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: eighteen forty two Story of the Jedi, I won't tell you, 107 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln used his height to save himself from a 108 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:44,239 Speaker 1: potentially fatal scrap with a guy named James Shields, a real. 109 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: Pill by the name of James Shields. How does reach 110 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: and height benefit you in a duel, you might ask, Well, 111 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: we'll get to that. So in the late eighteen thirties, 112 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln, who with a time, was a member of 113 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: the Whig Party, and Shields, missis of our story today, 114 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: who was a Democrat. Both of these fellows were members 115 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: of the Illinois State legislature, so this is pre presidential. 116 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: Lincoln, and they had the job they had the job 117 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: of resolving inter party differences. They were supposed to be 118 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: fixers across the political divide, and they were tasked with 119 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: ensuring state government soldiered onward. But their relationship, which had 120 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: always been sort of a rivalry at best, got really sour. 121 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: After Shields had a big win in his career, he 122 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: was named the state auditor. O. 123 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: Nobody likes that guy. 124 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: No, nobody like. The word audit itself means that if 125 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: audit is attached to your job, people are going to 126 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: be weird about you. 127 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah. In eighteen forty two, Illinois as a state 128 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: ran out of money and figured that it would be 129 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: really helpful for this situation if they no longer accepted 130 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: their own printed money as a form of legal tender. 131 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: Great. 132 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were in a real good position here. No, 133 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: not so much. Folks would only be able to pay 134 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: their taxes with silver and golds, which is what Jesus 135 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: is better than right now, it's just such, it's a him. Yeah, 136 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: I'd rather have Jesus than silver. 137 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: And right right. And most people, it turns out, in 138 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: Illinois at this time, did not have a secret hoarde 139 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: of silver and gold. Nope, they were used to trusting 140 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: the paper money that have been issued, because you know, 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be able to trust official currency. This 142 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: made the money worthless. There is a nightmarish time. Our 143 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: buddy Shields as state auditor, and he says, I'm going 144 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: to side with the Democratic Party on this one, with 145 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: my personal political party. We're rejecting all the currency. We're 146 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: shutting down the state bank. This is not good. 147 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: Does not sound like a party I would want to attend. 148 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: So the State Bank of Illinois shut down their legal tender, 149 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: which had been you know, accepted for all debts public 150 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: and private to that point no longer of value. So 151 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: the folks you know, who were the members of the 152 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: Whig Party did not care for this, and Shields really 153 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: became a target of their ridicule. Right. Lincoln, who was 154 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: only thirty three years young at the time, and he 155 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: was a Whig, as we said, and a state legislature, 156 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: was really against this whole plan. He thought it was 157 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: a bad move, as did the people it would seem. 158 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: So, you know, there you go, and so he wrote 159 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: some disstracks. This literally what happened. He did. He Lincoln 160 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: was friends with a guy named Simeon Francis the editor 161 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: of the Sangamo Journal or Sangamo Journal, and his buddy 162 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: Francis said, look, I'm going to let you publish letters 163 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: in this paper of note under a false name. So 164 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: on August twenty seventh, eighteen forty two, an attack letter 165 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: against Shields is printed in the paper by someone calling 166 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: themselves Rebecca. 167 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, real cute. Already you know, considered a master or 168 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: at her at this point. The guy probably had a 169 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: bit of a recognizable style, I would argue, Right, So, 170 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: while you know, anonymous for all intents and purposes, probably 171 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: not entirely anonymous to those in the know. 172 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm sure that there were phrases in that 173 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: letter that came verbatim from trash he had already talked 174 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: in the halls of government. 175 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, he got like a rehearsed freestyle. 176 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like on Sway in the morning. 177 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: Right. 178 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: And so the grift is this, The letter is from 179 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: the perspective of a farm wife somewhere in rural Illinois, 180 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: and she's saying, our neighbor can't pay his taxes because 181 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: you expect everyone to have gold and silver, and farmer 182 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: in question, a neighbor, right, whose name is Jeff also 183 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: probably made up attacks the policies of the Democratic Party 184 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: and then lays into Shields individually. Lincoln, who is writing 185 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: as the farm wife Rebecca, calls Shields a fool and 186 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: a liar and doesn't stop there. 187 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: These fighting words. Yeah, I mean seriously, he really gets 188 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: quite personal, just you know, like insulting the guy's intelligence, 189 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: his actual physical appearance. There's a quote his very features 190 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: in the ecstatic agony of his soul, spoke audibly and distinctly. 191 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: Dear girls, it is distressing, but I cannot marry you 192 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: all too well. I know how much you suffer. But 193 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: do do remember it is not my fault that I 194 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 2: am so handsome and so interesting. 195 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: What yeah, he's say? This guy is so stuck up 196 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: he thinks he's God's gift to women. It goes off 197 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: the rails as an attack. And also we have to 198 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: mention that lincoln future wife Mary Todd, plays a role 199 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: in this. When we think of Mary Todd, you know, 200 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: we probably think of the older version of her as 201 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: the first lady in this time. In eighteen forty two, 202 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: Lincoln is in his early thirties and Mary is only 203 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: twenty three years old. She is kind of an influencer 204 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: of her time, you know what I mean. 205 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, she definitely carried some weight inas much as a 206 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: woman could in politics in those days. Good points, you know, 207 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: I mean to your point. If she was around today, 208 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: she would be an absolute force to be reckoned with, 209 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: you know, in legit politics. But in this day she 210 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: really had limited ways in which she could influence the 211 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: course of you know, political history. And being an incredibly intelligent, 212 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: clever person, she leveraged the avenue to power that she 213 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: did have. She and a friend decided to follow Abe 214 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: Lincoln's precedent, and they double down on the joke. They 215 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: kept trying to publish stuff with these fake names who 216 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: go by Rebecca or aunt Becca. This is not to 217 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: be confused with some kind of aspersion on my actual aunts. 218 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 2: My aunt Becky, You're awesome. She's I think she's still 219 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 2: somewhere in Edinburgh. I can't remember, wasn't there. Aunt Becky 220 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: also a character in Full House. 221 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think that's right. Full House 222 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: was always kind of confusing to. 223 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: Me, very confusing. Why do they all live together in 224 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: that I don't know, really affluent San Francisco apartment? 225 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: Right? 226 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: What did he do for a living. Was he like 227 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 2: the ad executive or something. It wasn't really clear to me. 228 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: But at the time I also didn't understand things like rent. 229 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: So that was a halcyon era of weird sitcom situations. 230 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: You know, the kind of thing where the sitcom theme 231 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: song had to explain the entire setup Liken the Nanny soundtrack. 232 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, or mister Belvidere, any number of sitcoms that had, 233 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: you know, the plot of the show laid out, because 234 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: you know, audiences is were smart back then. I reckon. 235 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: I think maybe the setups were just even more complicated. 236 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so this is this is weird. So 237 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: they didn't stop with just one letter Mary and her friend. 238 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: They write more and more letters, and they in these 239 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: letters under these pseudonyms, they call James Shield's stuff like 240 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: a quote ballroom dandy floating about on the earth without 241 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: hef door substance, just like a lot of cat fur 242 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: where cats have been fighting. 243 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: Man, this Rebecca's spitting hot fire over and like it 244 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: seems like her her vocabulary shifting radically depending on which 245 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: one of these letters you're looking at. 246 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a little suspicions it needs some uniformity of character. 247 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: You know, where's our theme here? And then they said, 248 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,599 Speaker 1: you know, if he has a problem with being agitated 249 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: about the letters we're writing, quote, let him only come here. 250 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: He can squeeze my hand. If that's not personal satisfaction, 251 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: I can only say he is the first man that 252 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: was not satisfied with squeezing my hand. 253 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. Some of these get like more and 254 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: more performatively colloquial to like he's an eight and you know, 255 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 2: fust and stuff. It's a little funny, And obviously I 256 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: don't think it was their intention to. I think it 257 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: was meant to be somewhat clear this was not the 258 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: same person. Yeah, it was more of a what's the 259 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 2: word it represented something. 260 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Twitter jokes. It's like they're they're meming him, 261 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: they're meme shaming him. And you can tell that there's 262 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: a nod in the link and there's a bit of 263 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: like an attaboy to it, because one letter even fantasizes 264 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: about a fake marriage between ant Rebecca and Shields. 265 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: Some fictions some fan fit going on. 266 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: So yes, slash fake and Shields doesn't think any of 267 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: this is funny. Uh, he goes to the newspaper editor 268 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: and it's like, tell me who these people are. 269 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: So I may have given him a little more credit 270 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: that he deserved. He wasn't able to just suss it 271 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: out on his own based on context clues. You know, 272 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: he may have suspected, you know, since Lincoln again was 273 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: this like great orator and you know, also a nemesis 274 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: of him, he may have had his suspicions. But he 275 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: did demand the satisfaction from the publisher of the newspaper 276 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: or the editor rather, and he said, give me the names, 277 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: name names, you know, which is not something that a 278 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: newspaper editor would take lightly. 279 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: You know. Oh, you're supposed to be able to protect sources, right, 280 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: but Francis samm Francis obliges shields and says, Okay, I'm 281 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: about to blow your mind. 282 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: Bro. 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: There is no Rebecca. It's like everybody. Everybody thinks you're 284 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: sticking the wood is the problem? 285 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you are not loved, sir. 286 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: So he gets this information and he says, I'll teach 287 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: them by demanding a retraction. 288 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: Isn't that funny though that he obviously hones in on 289 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: Lincoln the man. You know, he's not interested necessarily in 290 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: Mary Todd or her buddy or whoever else got in 291 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: on this, this slanderous game. He gets Lincoln, he's already 292 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: you know, his kind of public nemesis, and like you said, 293 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,239 Speaker 2: demands a retraction. 294 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got the quote to he. Okay, so how 295 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: this is so middle school to me? 296 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: All right? 297 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: He writes an angry note to Lincoln. He doesn't give 298 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: the note to Lincoln. He gives it to someone else 299 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: to carry the note to him. And the note says, 300 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: I have become the object of slander, vituperation, and personal abuse. 301 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: Only a full retraction me prevent consequences which no one 302 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: will regret more than myself. 303 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: Sounds like a threat. 304 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: Right right, Hey, bro, don't make me hit you. 305 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: I will say. Though, kind of a dick move on 306 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: Lincoln's part, I mean, seems a little unprofessional, wouldn't you say, 307 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: to publish this distract under an assumed name, like like 308 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: own your stuff, man, you know what I mean? Like 309 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: come at him like you know you with your true name. 310 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: He obviously found out anyway, and you know Lincoln, but 311 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: he did stand his remarks even though he made them 312 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: under false pretenses. 313 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: Which is a little sketch. 314 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. 315 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: All right, guys, let me jump in here because I 316 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 3: want to pose a question to y'all. 317 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: Okay. 318 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: For some reason, this feels similar to me when we 319 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: did the episode about Ben Franklin when he accused the 320 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: you know, other his like competing guy with the Almanac 321 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 3: of being dead and stuff like that. Any think is 322 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: petty or this or that. That's that's so, it's not 323 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 3: that level of petty. 324 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying what he was saying was incorrect 325 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 2: or that he was picking a fight out of pettiness. 326 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: What he was saying I think was valid. And and 327 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: this other guy was supporting a cause that was not 328 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: good for the common people, no question. Nobody, like you said, Ben, 329 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: nobody had stores. Only the super wealthier people of his 330 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: echelon of society would have had stores of silver and 331 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: golds or dragons. Yeah, the rest of them only had 332 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: Jesus and this useless script right right, because now the 333 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: coupon system of currency doesn't work, and that is that 334 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: spell's absolute financial ruin for so many people. Lincoln says, 335 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: like you said, Nolie says, I'm not taking back a 336 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 2: word that I said. Here's your letter pal and tell 337 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 2: you what, buddy, why don't you rewrite it in a 338 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: more gentlemanly fashion. It's basically like saying, take this letter 339 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: and shove. 340 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: It, you know, right, And so shields response by saying, 341 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: let's go catch me outside. 342 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're gonna gonna throw some hands or or 343 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 2: you know, pistols or whatever else it might be. Have 344 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 2: you seen the new John Wick movie. Yes, at the end, 345 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: it's really awesome set piece or there's a duel. I 346 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 2: won't say who's involved, but they get to choose you know, 347 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: blades or or freaking you know, pistols or whatever, and 348 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: they do it with this very elaborate system, like all 349 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 2: the stuff with the high table. Never quite sure how 350 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: these little games visuals a lot of your world building, 351 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: awesome movies, awesome, really unequivocally great. They end up doing pistols, 352 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 2: but blades was definitely on the literal table. With these 353 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 2: like tarot card situations, this is similar where they are 354 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: going to have to choose what weapons they are going 355 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: to be using. 356 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, I gotta jump back in because the 357 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 3: first time I experienced John Wick was John Wick two. 358 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 3: I knew nothing about the show okay, Well about the movie, 359 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: I least right right, I knew nothing, but it was 360 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 3: there's a couple of my buddies and we'll go see 361 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 3: John Wick two three D North Cap Mall, which is 362 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 3: like you know the mall for it's basically a dead 363 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: ball with just movie theater. Yeah, right, but it's like 364 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 3: six fifty four to three D things. And I was 365 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: just like, okay, what is this movie? And I kind 366 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: of looked up before and I'm like okay, and I 367 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: said it blown away. 368 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: That amazing because you're so great. Timn's point though, you 369 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: don't they don't flesh out the world because there's not 370 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: much to flesh out. You don't really need to know 371 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: some detailed backstory. I think they kill his dog and 372 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: that's that's what sets him off. 373 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 3: The cool thing is like it's like stunt guys who 374 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 3: made the movie. Yes, it's all about the performative art 375 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 3: of like you know, fight scenes and. 376 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: Stuff like that. I also like the fact that they 377 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: depend on shot value and gore zero percent. Right, it's 378 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: all about the acrobatics and the set pieces of it all, 379 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: and they just double down each movie. I think they're 380 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: they're classic American films. 381 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 3: There really are. 382 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: They are beautiful. They're beautiful. They can be enjoyed in 383 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: any language, which I think is an advantage of slimming 384 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: down on the world building. And it's still very it's 385 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: still very interesting universe. But I gotta tell you one 386 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: of my one of my favorite parts of it watching 387 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: through John Wick four, huge fan of the whole franchise, 388 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: was I started thinking, Hey, these are supposed to be 389 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: like the world's best assassins. I only see them trying 390 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: to kill each other. When do they take jobs as assassins? 391 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: I think we're witnessing in the course of the film, 392 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: like a crisis in their community in the regular week, 393 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, unclear what we'll see in john Wick 394 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: five when things get back to normal. But so Lincoln, 395 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: what you have to accept? I guess right, Them's the 396 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: rules you have to you know, it's a gentlemanly agreement. 397 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: You can't be punk, No, you can't. So they catch 398 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: me outside moment is going to happen in Missouri? Why Missouri? 399 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: For these people beefed up in Illinois. It's because in Missouri, 400 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: dueling is still totally legal. 401 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: Isn't that funny? It's sort of like people that like 402 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: have to cross day lines to like get some recreational weed, 403 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, right, but in these days, like I gotta 404 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: go over here so I can like kill my enemy. 405 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which what I guess is what Missouri was 406 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: known for at the time. 407 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 3: Backstory, Hamilton Burr had to go to New Jersey to duel. 408 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: Everything is Jersey. It's a very permissive state. But but 409 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 2: you know, back to the john Wick of it all, 410 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: there's there is decorum, there are rules surrounding these things. 411 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: This is a nom there are rules, and Lincoln being 412 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 2: the person who has been challenged, you know, convention dictates 413 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: that he is allowed to choose weapons now is now 414 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 2: again back to the john Wick of it all, these 415 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: cards that they have to choose from, there's a finite, 416 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: you know, array of weapons to shoot from. Like is 417 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: it a similar situation here? Is it literally just pistols 418 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: or swords or were like evening stars or morning stars 419 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: part of the deal boomerangs perhaps? 420 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, animals? 421 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 2: I choose this type and could you choose a champion 422 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 2: like you could in the days of yr. 423 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems that they had some particular understandings of this. 424 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: There were things that were considered while you could technically 425 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: choose any weapon. There were things that were considered like 426 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: the goats, you know, pistols, blades, et cetera. So Lincoln 427 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: starts stacking the deck immediately, this weird pre internet pranking 428 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: has gone off the rails, and so he says, all right, 429 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: you want to fight me, little buddy. We're using broad swords, 430 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: the largest ones you can find, cavalry broad swords. 431 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: This would be those kind of curved scimitar type guys, right. 432 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: Calvary broad swords are the ones that have the handle, 433 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: oh gosh, the hilts, yeah, the one that like the 434 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: protector for your fingies. Yeah, And they're pretty heavy. 435 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: They're substantial, and so they're not curved, though maybe they 436 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: curve ever so slightly at the end. Well, no, it 437 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: looks like there's an there's something called an infantry hangar 438 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: that is a little bit more of a saber type thing. 439 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: But I don't know. There's all different makes of these things, 440 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: but in general, the cavalry broad sword not incredibly broad, 441 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: relatively tapered, you know, relatively thin blade, but that big 442 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 2: old chunky handle with the with the protector on it. 443 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: And it's it's wider than a rapier that's right. 444 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 2: Because a rapier is more like a fencing sword. Yeah, 445 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: really quainty and yeah, but by. 446 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: This point in time, I feel like stores have gone 447 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: a lot less meaty, Like I think, like when the 448 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 3: real meaty swords are the fourteen hundreds, By eighteen hundreds, 449 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: they're all slender and oh yeah. 450 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: Look often they were Often they were not functional. They 451 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: were or ornamental. 452 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: And if they were functional, they were a weapon of 453 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: last resort, you know what I mean. If you couldn't 454 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: get him from a distance with your musket that took 455 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 2: forty five minutes to load and shoot, you'd pull that 456 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: thing out, you know, when you were in close quarters 457 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: and maybe out of AMMO. 458 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: The day of the sword had been demoted to bayonet, exactly, 459 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: stick it on the gun just in case, right, they 460 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: get too close. Lincoln talks talks about why he why 461 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: he chooses the swords. He says, I didn't want the 462 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: damned fellow to kill me, which I think you would 463 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: have done if we had selected pistols. And I don't 464 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: want to kill him, but I feel like if it 465 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: comes down to blades, I can at least disarm him, 466 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, and then give him a chance to give 467 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: it up. 468 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: Back to that reach we're talking about it. He knows 469 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,959 Speaker 2: what his strengths are, and with pistols he would not 470 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: have any advantage. 471 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure his arm would be a little longer. 472 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: I guess technically the bullet might arrive a little bit 473 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: quicker coming. 474 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: From his gun. 475 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, we were talking milliseconds here at that point. 476 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: Using swords was a real boon, you know, for him 477 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: in a situation. 478 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to reach. He had the height. Shields 479 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: was five feet nine inches tall to Lincoln six feet four. Now, 480 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to all our 481 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: fellow listeners who are not themselves six ' four. You 482 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: can still win a fight. You can still win a fight, 483 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: depending on how you approach it, if you are shorter 484 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: than your opponent. But of course, if you know how 485 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: to fight. The number one thing you always have to 486 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: remember is that if you get into a physical altercation, 487 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: you have on some level already failed. 488 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: It's true because you know it's all about diplomacy. You 489 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 2: use your words, folks, use your words. 490 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: Use your words. So, okay, before the duel begins, this 491 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: is why we all love this story. Okay, Lincoln is 492 00:25:54,119 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: thinking how do I get this hot headed bantam creature 493 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: to calm down? How do I get him to back down? 494 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: And what does he do? 495 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: Nol Well, it makes me think of that scene in 496 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: one of the Indiana Jones movies where Doctor Jones is 497 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 2: menaced by a scimitar wielding henchman of some sort who 498 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: does a big old show, you know, swinging it around, 499 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: doing all the thing, and then, of course Doctor Jones 500 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 2: just shoots him in the face, which I always found 501 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: to be a bit of an unsportsmanly move. 502 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: I also heard that move was improvised. Oh really, that's 503 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: what I heard, I think if I'm remembering that correctly. 504 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 2: No improvised or not. It's you know, it's a lot 505 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: like the Han shot. First thing. He's sort of a 506 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: bit of a rascal if he's just like this guy 507 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: hasn't even come at him yet, he's just sort of 508 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: showing off and then he just shoots him in the face. 509 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: Not not very fair. But this is not the case 510 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 2: because these guys are both you know, never bring a 511 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: scimitar to a gunfight, you know, I guess that's the thing. 512 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: These guys are both wielding these swords. Lincoln shows off 513 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 2: his reach more than his swordsman. 514 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah. So Lincoln says, watch this man 515 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: calmed dout, and he cuts down a tree branch above 516 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: Shields his head, showing just how much of a height 517 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: disparity there is, and clearly establishing that things are not 518 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: going to go well for Shields if they do actually 519 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: beef up. 520 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: So this point, Shields recognizes that maybe he's been played 521 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: a little bit. I'm sure he wasn't happy him seeming 522 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: like a bit of a thin skinned fellow. But I'll 523 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: tell you what he didn't know, and they were able 524 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 2: to discuss in this moment, was that the letter that 525 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: Lincoln wrote, I believe there are two under well, the 526 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: Jeff and Rebecca letter right, not nearly as personal and 527 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: aggressively nasty as the ones that Mary Todd and her 528 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: Palell wrote when they took the joke too far. Took 529 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: it too far, and he didn't know that. And so 530 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: I think this was an opportunity to explain this is 531 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 2: so this. 532 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: To me, this moment is either very tense or it's 533 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: weirdly off putting, it awkward, like it's a peep show 534 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: moment where you learn the guy could have killed you 535 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: in the duel instead, but instead he spared your life, 536 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: and he's not the person you should be mad at. 537 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that person was a woman, he adds. 538 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so so they are not going to be 539 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: super good friends right after this, but they but they 540 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: understand each other. And if you fast forward twenty years later, 541 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: the Civil War brings these frenemies back together. 542 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Lincoln makes him brigadier general for the Union Army, 543 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 2: and that was you know, well he made him, he 544 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 2: was appointed such and that of course had to be approved, 545 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: you know, for a high position like that, by Lincoln himself. So, 546 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: you know, Lincoln in every way, he comes off as 547 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: the bigger man here. 548 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: He's literally he's literally the bigger man. 549 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: And he also just like he he didn't have any beef. 550 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: You know, he definitely tossed a little mud on this 551 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: guy's you know, pantaloons, but he wasn't trying to push 552 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: it farther. And and honestly, at the end of the day, 553 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: if that had been the only thing that had come out, 554 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: the guy would never have even called for the duel. 555 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: No and all. And Lincoln just didn't want to get shot, 556 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: which is a totally reasonable faith, thank god. Though that the. 557 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 2: Tradition of dueling gave him that that opportunity to pick 558 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: the weapons, and that he was crafty enough to realize 559 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: that his advantage would be much better served with the 560 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: with the swords, with the guns. 561 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: And we have to, of course, we have to point 562 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: out that his fear of firearms turned out to be 563 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: very well fount. 564 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: Oh forgot about that. Geez, poor Mary Todd. 565 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and okay, so he I mean poor Lincoln. 566 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: But like she was like there. 567 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: And so there's something that happens that totally changes the 568 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: Lincoln Shields beef Shields. When he is a brigadier general, 569 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: like you said, he's fighting in the Shenandoah Valley in 570 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: March of eighteen sixty two, he is the only guy 571 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: to defeat Stonewall Jackson at a place called the Battle 572 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: of Curtainstown. And during that battle, Shields is very grievously injured. 573 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: Lincoln says, nominate this guy to major general. And someone 574 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: maybe in the room said, do you mean that guy 575 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: I tried to kill you in Missouri? And he's like, yeah, look, 576 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: we got a lot of stuff going on. 577 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: It's fine, you get into situations. Yeah, bigger man unfortunately 578 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 2: is not in the power of the president alone, you know, 579 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: to bestow this this promotion, you know, onto an individual. 580 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: And Shields doesn't get the nomination. It's blocked by the 581 00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: then Republican controlled Senate. Yeah, the symbolic it did the 582 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: job right symbolically, it squashed the beef. And apparently this 583 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 2: haunted Lincoln for the rest of his life. He was 584 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: embarrassed about it, and he asked Mary Todd, who you know, 585 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: was his friend then later became his wife. He asked 586 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: her never to speak about it to him or to anyone. 587 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: And there's an anecdotal story that says, years and years later, 588 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: an army officer was talking to Lincoln while he's the 589 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: president and said something like, you know, you know, mister President, 590 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: I me and the boys have heard a campfire story 591 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: about you, and did you used to get into duels? 592 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: What did Lincoln say, Because to the bone like a 593 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: cavalry broadsword, he says, I do not deny it, but 594 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: if you desire my friendship, you will not mention it again. 595 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: Awkward, awkward dinner. Thanks for making dinner awkward. 596 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: I mean he basically said the same thing to Mary Todd. 597 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: You know, he was like, we don't talk about this, 598 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: you know, and if you do, it's not going to 599 00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: go well. 600 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he really regretted it. He would go 601 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: on to describe it once as what was it the 602 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: meanest thing I ever did in my life. 603 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: That's interesting because again he really does come off as 604 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: like the diplomat here. Maybe he's referring to feeling bad 605 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: about writing the anonymous talk. 606 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's part of it, because the whole 607 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: situation could have been avoided. But you know how it is. 608 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta get your jokes in. Man. 609 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: It's true. And also maybe at the time he thought 610 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: that that he genuinely believed that if it came from 611 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: the perspective of like the people, that it was gonna 612 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: do a better job of communicating the gravity of the 613 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: situation that it came from like a political opponent. So, 614 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: you know, hindsight's twenty twenty and all that. It seemed 615 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: like a dumb move to both of us, I think 616 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: from the start, But I think Lincoln was well meaning 617 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: and veiling his true identity. 618 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: Let's you know what, Let's see if dueling is still 619 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: legal somewhere. 620 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: Oh, it's probably one of those like weird off the 621 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: books things or there's some like gray area zone. See, yeah, 622 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: you can just in this like part where these states intersect. 623 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: Apparently, according to grunge dot com, dueling is still legal 624 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: in a couple of states. 625 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's referred to as mutual combats. It is nuts, yeah, 626 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 2: says here Texas and Washington. Washington was a surprise for 627 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: me too, man. Yeah, they're so chill and peaceful and 628 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 2: stoned in Washington. 629 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: And so okay. The Washington law says anyone who fights, 630 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: or promotes, or is concerned in or connives at fighting 631 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: a duel is prosecutable by law. But if people are 632 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: not fighting in public, if they're not risking the lives 633 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: of other people, are damaging other property, then police have 634 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: no reason to intervene. 635 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: Gotta wonder if that's sort of like one of those 636 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: laws where like the local law clashes with roll law, 637 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: because like, if you kill somebody in a duel and 638 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: it's legal to do so in Texas under a mutual combat, 639 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: you know, statute of their penal code a federally, haven't 640 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: you still murdered somebody? 641 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? I would think so, you know. 642 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 3: To jump back in here, in the case of Aaron 643 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 3: Burr and Alexander Hamilton. Uh, there was actually murder charges 644 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 3: brought to up. He wasn't really even found like innocent. 645 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 3: He it was just like a something went wrong with 646 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 3: the trial. But it's like, yeah, for the longest time, 647 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you can duel, but if you kill 648 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 3: somebody in the duel, you're still liable to be charged 649 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 3: for murder. 650 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: So it's weird. Well, I guess it also depends are 651 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: you just fighting or are you dueling to the death. 652 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: I think we're all assuming dual to the death right, correct, Yeah, Okay, 653 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: should that be legal? Like, uh, should we step carefully 654 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: and text you guys next time we go back always? 655 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 656 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: Okay, lesson learned with a big thanks through Abe Lincoln. Uh, 657 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: this one just flew by Noel, and I know we've 658 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: got to I know we've got to call it a day, 659 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: but I'm having so much fun in this in person 660 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: recording situation. You know. Uh, it may not be great 661 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: for uh Max's burgeoning Meglemania, as he said, but uh, 662 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: but that's that's just a bisco We're gonna have to take. Max. 663 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 2: It's one that I'm willing to take. 664 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: Right So thanks Toorge super producer, Max Williams, Alex Williams, 665 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: who composed this banging soundtrack. Noel Noel, who else? Who else? Oh? 666 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: You know, you know, Chris frasciotis here in spirities, Jeff 667 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: Coats out there in the in the great wide world, 668 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland. Uh and and you Ben. You know, we've 669 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: never never been in a duel. I don't do't foresee 670 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 2: that happening. 671 00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: Uh No, I don't think we'll be in a duel 672 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: to each other. So tune in. We've got some great 673 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: stuff on the way. We're very excited to travel through 674 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: more ridiculous events days of your and we can't wait 675 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: for you to be a part of it. 676 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 677 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,479 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 678 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.