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Speaker 1: Oh hey everyone, Episode ninety coming right at you from

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Speaker 1: Bozemant and it's me and fill the Engineer here. In

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Speaker 1: early January, we're gonna wind down the best of THHC.

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Speaker 1: So thank you. I know there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: out there. Let's just be honest that when you see

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Speaker 1: the best of show, you just don't listen. I do

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Speaker 1: that sometimes, but I hope you listen to these last

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Speaker 1: three and I hope you're listening to this one right

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Speaker 1: now because we want to celebrate a little bit of

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Speaker 1: what we've done in the last couple of years. And

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Speaker 1: and and while we're doing that, we're sitting back here

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Speaker 1: and planning for all the cool things we want to

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Speaker 1: bring you, all the great guests, all the good topics.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully we'll live up to your expectations in and

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Speaker 1: as I said, I'm having a child, so kind of

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Speaker 1: busy with that. We'll be back and better than ever

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Speaker 1: very soon. But before we get to the show today,

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Speaker 1: we gotta talk to you about the Meat Eater Off

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Speaker 1: the Air live tour. Join Steve Ronnellay honest, but tell

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Speaker 1: us Ryan Callahan and friends for an evening you won't

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Speaker 1: see or here anywhere else And that just means it's

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Speaker 1: not gonna be recorded. There's nowhere else you can get

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Speaker 1: this entertainment than in the theater with these boys in

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Speaker 1: eleven cities coming this year San Francisco, Portland, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Minneapolis, Chicago,

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Speaker 1: d C, Pittsburgh, eleven cities all together. So if you

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Speaker 1: want to get tickets, they go on sale Friday, January,

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Speaker 1: but they are available exclusively to the mediator community beginning Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: January fourteenth at ten am. Used the Perma code mugs

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Speaker 1: wherever you're buying your tickets and you'll get them. There's

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Speaker 1: also one more thing to know. There's exclusive meet and

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Speaker 1: greet signing opportunities available for VIP ticket holders. There's only

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Speaker 1: sixty five tickets per show to get on that a

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Speaker 1: SAP if you want to meet the crew and greet

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Speaker 1: the crew. Excited for that as a company, and we'll

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Speaker 1: see you on the road now episode I guess. I

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Speaker 1: grew up on an older road, a pedil to the meadows.

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Speaker 1: I always did what I've told until I found out

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Speaker 1: that my brand new closed a game second hand from

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Speaker 1: the rich kids next door. And I grew up fast.

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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. I mean, there are a

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Speaker 1: thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't

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Speaker 1: seen and now I just wanted to a real bad

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Speaker 1: dream or being in like I'm coming a part of

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Speaker 1: the seams. But thank you, Jack Daniel, everybody episode nine

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Speaker 1: six coming at you. We are here and we're ready

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Speaker 1: for the last best of Phil. I'm gonna ask you

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Speaker 1: just one more time. How are you feeling, buddy? I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. You got a cup of coffee. According

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Speaker 1: a couple of podcast today, which is my job? Yeah? Um,

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Speaker 1: so you know doing your job is what you're saying. Well, listen,

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot lately about uh, We've been

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Speaker 1: thinking about twenty and what we're gonna do. How are

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Speaker 1: we gonna be different? You know, as as a podcast,

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Speaker 1: when you have to win, you're ah, your job is

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Speaker 1: to do something every week. I personally stress a lot

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Speaker 1: about what what we're gonna do, How are we gonna

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Speaker 1: be different, are we gonna be better? How are we

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Speaker 1: gonna push forward? And this is a great time for

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Speaker 1: the show to do that. So before we get any

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Speaker 1: further into what we're gonna do today, I want to

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Speaker 1: tell you guys right into th HDT to meet eater

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Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, this would be a nice time. Just

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Speaker 1: tell us how you're feeling, how you're feeling about what

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Speaker 1: we've done thus far, how you're feeling about what's the

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Speaker 1: most pressing issue in your world. What do you want

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Speaker 1: to see as cover, Who do you want us to

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Speaker 1: talk to, Where do you want us to go? Because

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Speaker 1: it's an open book right now, and this is the

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Speaker 1: time to push this show in the direction you wanted

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Speaker 1: to go. A lot of you guys right in. A

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Speaker 1: lot of you guys leave reviews negative, positive, or whatever.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate all of them. Oh, most all of them. Phil,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate most all of them. I appreciate all of them.

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Speaker 1: Phil likes all of them. Yeah, they all make him laugh. Um.

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Speaker 1: But but it is important to us to get the

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Speaker 1: feedback from you, so little brocket and tackling here th

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Speaker 1: HD at the Medior dot com right in. Let us

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Speaker 1: know what you're thinking, what you're burning on in We

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Speaker 1: will do our best to tackle all of that here

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Speaker 1: on the show. So we've been already been talking about

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Speaker 1: this the last couple episodes. I am expecting a child

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Speaker 1: now that I thought maybe the child would have come

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Speaker 1: by now into the world, Phil, but the child has not,

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Speaker 1: so we still have a couple of days we think

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Speaker 1: before the event. So I wanted to just briefly touch

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Speaker 1: on fatherhood and I think, um, what we're gonna do

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Speaker 1: when my son is born. My dad is going to

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Speaker 1: be in town. Where might come in this room right

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Speaker 1: after he's born and just reflect a little bit more

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Speaker 1: in depth from fatherhood because I think it's important part

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Speaker 1: of my life, Phil, it's important part of your life.

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Speaker 1: Fatherhood or motherhood or just being a parent is an

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Speaker 1: important part of all of our lives. And so those

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Speaker 1: of you that have children, uh, and those of you

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Speaker 1: that want to have children. We got folks like Ryan

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Speaker 1: Callahan who just is essentially a single man for life,

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Speaker 1: as he's told us, and I'm happy for him. The

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Speaker 1: man's living the dream a lot of ways, but being

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Speaker 1: being the parents a lot of things. And I think

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Speaker 1: for me, as I prepare to have my second child,

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Speaker 1: it changes a lot of the ways that I think

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Speaker 1: about my son, James, my wife, my family. Like where

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Speaker 1: do you find your joy? Here's I'm gonna go. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get deep on your Phil. You're ready for this

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Speaker 1: I love it when you do this. It's like my

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Speaker 1: Doctor Phil moment, like, where do you find your joy?

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Speaker 1: Like I've I've I've traveled around, I've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of amazing things my life, spent a lot of time,

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Speaker 1: um doing things that not a lot of people get

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Speaker 1: to do. And I find joy in those places outside.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've been to some of the the craziest

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Speaker 1: mountain ranges in the world. I've hunted some of the

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Speaker 1: weirdest and wildless animals you'd ever see at the end

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Speaker 1: of the earth. And um, not to be too melochematic

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Speaker 1: about where I've been, but I found joy in those

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Speaker 1: wild places. But the coolest thing that I've ever done

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Speaker 1: is find joy just with the people that I love

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Speaker 1: and the people that really matter. And I think fatherhood

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Speaker 1: then for me, becomes this singular joy because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be far flung, it doesn't need

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Speaker 1: to be wild and crazy and eventful. It can just

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Speaker 1: be what it could be, that simple joy in your life.

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Speaker 1: And if you can find um joy in the craziness

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Speaker 1: that it is being a parent, white diapers and tantrums

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Speaker 1: and all the things that Tyler's bringing to your life,

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Speaker 1: if you find some joy in all of it, then

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Speaker 1: you can find Yeah, that's simple. Pleasures become important for you.

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Speaker 1: And so for me, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: fatherhood is I prepare for number two is about putting

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Speaker 1: the best of me into my into my family, into

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Speaker 1: that part of my life. And it feels pretty good

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day knowing that, while it's

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Speaker 1: always a struggle, if you do good at that part,

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Speaker 1: if you do good at that job, if you excel

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Speaker 1: at that, then it's a it's a long lasting effect

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Speaker 1: on our world. So if you're a parent, or if

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Speaker 1: you want to be a parent, it's a good time

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Speaker 1: to be thinking about that. I certainly am right now.

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Speaker 1: You've got any parenting philosophies you want to throw out there,

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Speaker 1: philm uh not really, I haven't. It's the stuff that

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Speaker 1: I've thought about that I had never really put into

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Speaker 1: words before. Um, but I think you did a did

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Speaker 1: a pretty good job. It's kind of crazy how world

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Speaker 1: shaking becoming a parent is. There really is never I

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Speaker 1: used to look around at people that had kids when

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Speaker 1: I didn't have kids, I'm like, well, how are you

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Speaker 1: here right now? Yeah, don't you have somewhere else to be?

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Speaker 1: How could you be here when that's going on? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And for me, if I was being flat honest, prior

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Speaker 1: to having a child, I never really thought it would

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Speaker 1: happen for me. I just didn't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I didn't know if I earned it or if

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Speaker 1: I deserved it. I didn't know if I would would

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Speaker 1: be good at it. But now that I am in

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Speaker 1: that situation, I very much relish the opportunity to succeed

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Speaker 1: and fail and succeed and fail again at being apparent

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Speaker 1: and just um. It keeps life interesting, that's for sure,

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Speaker 1: and it's I think what's really important. And so I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you a little bit about that

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Speaker 1: today and hopefully pretty soon you'll be seeing awesome a

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Speaker 1: little content about the new little guy in my life

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Speaker 1: and we'll be moving on to So thanks for sticking

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Speaker 1: with me as we talk a little bit about fatherhood

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Speaker 1: and where I am in life. And now we're going

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Speaker 1: to get to the rest of episode and the reason

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Speaker 1: why I think this is the perfect way to end

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Speaker 1: the best of just because I think in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, the three folks you're gonna hear from today,

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Speaker 1: um are going to have those long lasting effects on

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Speaker 1: our world and are the hunting community and all of

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Speaker 1: the things that we love to do. All the pursuits

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Speaker 1: were to take part in, Colonel Tom Kelly, Jim pose Wits,

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Speaker 1: Hilarious Geist, all three of those those guys have had

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Speaker 1: indelible stamps on hunting and the outdoors and nature and

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Speaker 1: all those things. First up, you're gonna hear Jim Pozzwits.

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Speaker 1: Jim is the author of Beyond Frere Chase. That's a book.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't read it, go read it. And if

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Speaker 1: you don't know anything about Jim Pozzles, please stick around

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Speaker 1: and go listen to them. After you we're finished this episode,

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Speaker 1: go listen to his full episode of The Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: He's a legend. He's getting up there in years, but

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Speaker 1: what he's done for hunting and how we think about it,

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Speaker 1: how we reason it, how we value it, has been immeasurable.

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Speaker 1: So I greatly respect that man. He actually shed a

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Speaker 1: few tears in that episode Um when telling a story

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Speaker 1: about generational hunting, and Valarious Geist shed some tears when

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Speaker 1: talking about h a moose, pet pet mouse, and Colonel

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Speaker 1: Tom Kelly shed some tears when talking about his late

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Speaker 1: wife and so beyond posits we have, like like I

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Speaker 1: just said, Colonel Tom Kelly, the Turkey Hunks poet laureate,

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Speaker 1: a Southern genteel colonel that has so many things to say.

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Speaker 1: I think it's been It's been a yard as they

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Speaker 1: say as well. And then we're gonna end it with

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Speaker 1: the legendary author of the North American model of wildlife conservation.

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Speaker 1: His name is Valerious Geist, Dr. Vlarious Guise. He came

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Speaker 1: in here and absolutely wowed us the jaw dropping person

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Speaker 1: um full of energy as as his Colonel Kelly, as

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Speaker 1: his Jim Pozzles. They wouldn't be to where they are

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Speaker 1: in life without that just singular energy that they have.

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Speaker 1: So I want you to enjoy these three people. Know

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Speaker 1: that they have lived there getting up there in years.

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Speaker 1: They've lived long, productive lives. And if I were to

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Speaker 1: make a goal for for folks to emulate, these three

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Speaker 1: gentlemen will be right up there are both professionally, personally

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Speaker 1: and on and on. So without further ado, enjoy Mr

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Speaker 1: Jim positively. I guess I grew up on an older road.

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Speaker 1: Take us through why ethics for you? Why after all

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Speaker 1: this time spending the hunting community cost race community, why

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Speaker 1: ethics was important to you, while why fair chase was

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Speaker 1: something that um was a pillar in your life and

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Speaker 1: why you felt the need to address it at that point. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving fishing game in the in the eighties, lady, eighties,

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Speaker 1: I'm wrapping things up kind of. That's when I had

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Speaker 1: gone back to Washington, d C. That's when we were

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Speaker 1: killing every buffalo that set foot outside of Yellowstone National Park,

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Speaker 1: and that's when hunting was being vilified, uh, coast to coast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like the pinnacle of the hunting

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Speaker 1: participation at at some level. Eighties when was really and

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Speaker 1: I guess I was aware of the conservation side of

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Speaker 1: what the hunters were sponsoring, and that story was not

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Speaker 1: being told by anybody. And so I came back and

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Speaker 1: we started the Governor's Symposium series on the North American

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Speaker 1: hunting heritage under when Stan Stevens's first term as governor,

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Speaker 1: and we started talking about, you know, what's wrong with

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Speaker 1: us and what's right about us as hunters, and we

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Speaker 1: held seven national conferences uh in the process. And of

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Speaker 1: course that when you got a started inviting speakers and

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Speaker 1: become a speaker and stuff, you have to start doing

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Speaker 1: some study in do you remember, Like it strikes me

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Speaker 1: that do you remember when you say that you want

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Speaker 1: to what's right with us and what's wrong with us?

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Speaker 1: Like that's that's a pretty heavy statement for me. Do

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Speaker 1: you do you remember back in time to why that

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Speaker 1: you you wanted to explore explore those things like particularly

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with us? Well, what's wrong with us? Was?

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Speaker 1: I guess the consummate thing was how we were treating

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Speaker 1: the buffalo coming out of Yellowstone Park. Everyone setting foot

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Speaker 1: in Montana was to be shot. And that was so

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Speaker 1: alien to the conservation ethics that had restored while abundance

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Speaker 1: of wildlife um clear across state of Montana that I

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Speaker 1: stumbled into, you know, the middle of a dear recovery

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Speaker 1: boom of the nineteen fifties. I was doing a great hunter.

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Speaker 1: I mean that we're deer were everywhere. To start adding

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Speaker 1: when you know things up and and just why a

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Speaker 1: person is even inclined to go out in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: whether it was a jack or a cotton tail rabbit,

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Speaker 1: or a pheasant or a rough grouse. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: was my total bag of as a hunter before coming

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Speaker 1: to Montana. Was a couple of cotton tail rabbits in

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Speaker 1: an apple orchard because the archard guy didn't like a

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Speaker 1: nipping on the basis of his trees. They're probably pretty

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Speaker 1: good things and rabbits exactly, although my mother was quite

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Speaker 1: puzzled what to do with it. Did you did you ever?

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Speaker 1: Did you find yourself to be unique in in the

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Speaker 1: thoughts that you were having around um, the examining the

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Speaker 1: y or the ethics. No, and uh here I tend

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Speaker 1: to maybe make some stuff up because the competition for

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Speaker 1: the hunter's attention had turned to you know, did you

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Speaker 1: get your limit? How big was your buck? It's still persists.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad I never measured any of my am just

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Speaker 1: won't do it because it's just degrading. And then you realize, well,

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Speaker 1: there's more here to that. And I had a consummate experience,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, after all, the stuff is twenty

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Speaker 1: five years with the Sinembur Foundation funding conservation, environmental protection,

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Speaker 1: wildlife restoration, and then fifteen years with o'rien, and what

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Speaker 1: that adds to the personal experience becomes over overwhelming, and

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Speaker 1: a couple of seasons ago I'm stumbling up into We

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Speaker 1: used to live eight miles south of town and just

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Speaker 1: out the back door, did lots and lots of hunting.

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Speaker 1: But I go to an all familiar place in the dark.

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Speaker 1: Can I sit there because gals coming up to the

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Speaker 1: other side. Yeah, and she's liable to, you know, start

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Speaker 1: some elkout. So I'm sitting in one of the passes

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Speaker 1: where they sometimes go as the hunters, as the hunter

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Speaker 1: is known to do. So I'm sitting there in a

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Speaker 1: pre dawn and I'm looking down the trail. I came

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Speaker 1: in what looks like a father and two sons come

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Speaker 1: walking up the trail and I'm just sitting there. Excuse me.

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Speaker 1: The father sees me and he halts the boys, and

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Speaker 1: they're like poster children out of Hunter Education magazine. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're control of their weapons, undivided attention, standing there quietly

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Speaker 1: in the background. And the father tiptoes up to this

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Speaker 1: old guy sitting in the woods, and the father says,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to get ahead of you. He whispers

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Speaker 1: it to me, and I look and I'm thinking, here,

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting on the National Forest public lands in pursuit

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Speaker 1: of a restored while life population that's available to anybody.

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Speaker 1: And the first three guys I meet, want to defer

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Speaker 1: to me. And I said that, you know, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: that Theodore Roosevelt talking about the generations within the womb

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Speaker 1: of time is what he called us. Well, there were

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Speaker 1: three generations right there, this old guy, me, the father,

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Speaker 1: and two sons what I took to be two sons.

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Speaker 1: And I look at the situation and I say back

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Speaker 1: to the father, I think I know what I see here,

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Speaker 1: and I want you ahead of me. And then he says,

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Speaker 1: the youngest boy can shoot a cow if he sees one,

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Speaker 1: and I give him a smile and the thumbs up,

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Speaker 1: and the kids face lights up in the dark with

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Speaker 1: excitement of that moment, and in his anticipation is an excitement.

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Speaker 1: And just again I lean on Roosevelt. We do these things, uh,

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Speaker 1: for the economic well being of the people, But there

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Speaker 1: is more. They also add to the beauty of living

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Speaker 1: and therefore the joy of life. And there I was

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Speaker 1: looking at the joy of life shining in the dark. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, holy mackerel, well and all you've experienced

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Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, And then they walked up, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, they walked ahead. I sat there and

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Speaker 1: I bawled. I was so emotionally moved by how this

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Speaker 1: all fits and when you see these are people didn't

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Speaker 1: know any of this stuff, I don't think, but maybe

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Speaker 1: they did, but probably not. But the two boys I

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Speaker 1: know out in my book, Well, I think that your

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Speaker 1: emotion there is built in what you've seen, in what

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Speaker 1: in some ways you've shepherded in your life experience, do

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Speaker 1: you know, And to say that Bucker is a big accomplishment,

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Speaker 1: it's not true. Yeah, I mean, you're you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a big part of and I think one thing that

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Speaker 1: you've done in your career and that I hope to

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Speaker 1: do and I'm sure Sam hopes as well, is to

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Speaker 1: is to carry that torch. It is too understand the

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Speaker 1: history of what came before us, and how miraculous the

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Speaker 1: time that we've described in this podcast was for America,

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Speaker 1: and how miraculous that it has lasted for these decades

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Speaker 1: and throughout your life is even more miraculous that it's

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Speaker 1: a it's amazing to have thought about. You know that

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Speaker 1: you were one year old when when you know, the concerts,

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Speaker 1: the early conservations were coming together to decide the future,

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Speaker 1: and here we are in the future. And there was

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Speaker 1: two boys there that learned something that they that they

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Speaker 1: to them was likely an aid to their family, to

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Speaker 1: the way of life, which wasn't always that way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the Royal Hunting Party. It was not he

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Speaker 1: were the real Americans. And it's democratic nature. And what

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Speaker 1: I think this spends well into I think ethics. I

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Speaker 1: forgot that question. We'll get there. I got plenty of time.

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Speaker 1: Have a drink, um, Well, I'll have a drink in

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Speaker 1: in um elevating the conversation of ethics as you did, um,

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Speaker 1: there was uh, and in your book there's the level

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Speaker 1: of caring about To me, what struck me was the

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Speaker 1: level of caring about the community of people that you

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Speaker 1: were involved in, but the level of caring about right

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Speaker 1: and wrong for them and that discussion. You know, and

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Speaker 1: as you wrote that book, you know, what's your ultimate goal? Like,

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Speaker 1: would you remember what's in your head? Is I'm going

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Speaker 1: to achieve something from this writing or is it just

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Speaker 1: the conversation that you had within it? Well, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's things going on in a person's life, and in

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Speaker 1: the context of this subject. I had been going to

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Speaker 1: the shot show. Uh, we're getting ready to go to

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Speaker 1: this shot show, right, And and here's the commercial extreme

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Speaker 1: and they're just peddling their stuff and nothing matters, ah,

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Speaker 1: other than to sell the commodity. And the fact that

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Speaker 1: there is an animal involved. We're going to get shot

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Speaker 1: out here. There's not ever across that border. And and

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Speaker 1: that's the tragedy of the industry not seeing a more

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Speaker 1: you know, a more powerful uh reality, and just the

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Speaker 1: antler or the quantity or the locker full of dead

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Speaker 1: fish or whatever it is. But all they're doing is

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Speaker 1: promoting the commerce of it. And of course the commerce

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Speaker 1: is what drove it to its knees to begin with

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Speaker 1: the buffalo hight in other just the meat markets. And

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Speaker 1: here we're going right back with this huge engine boid

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Speaker 1: that a powerful notion like yeah, right, and so we're

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Speaker 1: beyond frere chase to try to find another path. Came

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Speaker 1: from the publisher of Falcon Press at the time, tossed

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Speaker 1: a little copy of a book called The Ethics are

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Speaker 1: the Style of Writing by Strunk and White Elements of

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Speaker 1: Style or I forget exact title of it now, but

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Speaker 1: it was a little tiny paperback book about writing. And

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Speaker 1: he said, I want you to write a book just

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Speaker 1: like this on the ethics of hunting. And I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: I've never written anything articles, but never a book. So

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Speaker 1: I sat down and I just wrote Beyond Fair Chase.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I did right was it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a list of thou shalt and thou shalt not because

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Speaker 1: they're everywhere and they're nowhere. That the ethics. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so you. I spawn five stories into the book on

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Speaker 1: relationships between the hunter and the hunted, including that buck

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Speaker 1: there and another set in my downstairs from the next

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Speaker 1: year in the same same hillside. Basically but at any rate. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I drafted it and uh there was very little editorial stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh and he wanted to call the Little Brown Book

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Speaker 1: on Hunting because Chairman Mao had just come out with

385
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Speaker 1: the Little Red Book, Little Round Book. I would have

386
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Speaker 1: lasted as long. But well, idea. How what I did

387
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: was I called, offered to buy a beer for about

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Speaker 1: four or five members of the Rotten Gun Club that

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Speaker 1: I was a member of, told them the dilemma that

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Speaker 1: I needed a better title. At the price of a

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Speaker 1: couple of beers, I got one of the guys, Mike

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Speaker 1: Trevor uh said how about Beyond fair Chase? And that

393
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Speaker 1: rang the bell And so that's where the title came from.

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Speaker 1: And then I wrote the book and it has five

395
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Speaker 1: stories um um. One about the wounded Bull, which is

396
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: the one that comes back to me most often, some

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Speaker 1: one personal story about when my son passes up and

398
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Speaker 1: elk because he wants his father to confirm that everything

399
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Speaker 1: is good as we all do. Yeah, and then the

400
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Speaker 1: next season he gets an elk there and I thought, wow,

401
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: it's all it's all fits. But at any rate, Uh,

402
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: there's a ton of stories about stories coming back to me,

403
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Speaker 1: but we'll take a lot, but at any right, That's

404
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Speaker 1: where Beyond fair Chase came from. And then the breakthrough

405
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: there was I had been meeting with with the International

406
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Speaker 1: Association of Hunter Education Educators. They were having an annual

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Speaker 1: convention in Des Moines, Iowa. And so I wrote the

408
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: guy and I said, look, I've got this book and

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Speaker 1: I'd like to tell about it at your convention. I'll

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Speaker 1: take any place on your program that you might be

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Speaker 1: able to fit it in. Uh somebody cancels or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and he agrees. He said, okay, come on, and uh

413
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Speaker 1: he gives me the award banquets speaking spot this. My

414
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: wife Gail goes, she's on contract here with Falcon Press

415
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: at the time to promote the book sell it, and

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Speaker 1: one of the guys from his staff down down there

417
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: at Falcon Press was along. We go to Des Moines.

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Speaker 1: I read a speech and we get into the banquet

419
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: room and Gail and Chris the other guy from Falcon,

420
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: they set up a table to take orders on the

421
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: outside of the banquet room. This is the Hotel Fort

422
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: des Moines. And I get in here and here's all

423
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: these oak walls and beautifully kept historic place. And it

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00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: occurs to me, because I knew a little bit about

425
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: conservation history, that elder Leopold Iowa and Ding Darling Iowan

426
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Speaker 1: Ding was the first president of the National Wildlife Federation

427
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Speaker 1: spoke in that same room. So I threw away my

428
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: text and I talked about the echoes of their words

429
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: that are held in these walls. And when that was over,

430
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 1: they swamped our pre order table and Gale and Chris

431
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: so so pre sold a hundred thousand copies. So and

432
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: what'd you tell us before seven? About seven unbelievable seven?

433
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: And Sam would like when you first read it, Uh,

434
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: what would you think? Like? What the what was your

435
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: reaction to what you'd read? What Wood? Mr? What Jim

436
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: had put together well, I think, I think it started

437
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: getting distributed two hunter education courses probably right after I

438
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: was I went through that, so I didn't read it

439
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: until just a couple of years ago in Lantani gave

440
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: me a copy. But was that the one you started

441
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: with the story of like killing a sparrow? Yeah, yeah,

442
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: I remember, I remember that. I mean I definitely resonated

443
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: with it and immediately, having grown up, you know, with

444
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 1: a BB gun in hand forgotten mentioned yes, yeah, oh

445
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: that was go ahead, I'm sorry, Oh please, please go ahead.

446
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: Bill Schneider wanted to call it the Little Brown Book

447
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: on Hunting. I wanted to call it The Sparrow and

448
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: the Mammoth Hunter. That's a pretty good title. That's that's

449
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: pretty good. I feel like a T shirt turned out

450
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: to be beyond fair Chase. We like it. But yeah,

451
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: this this book becomes a seminal project and I read it,

452
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: I think about five years ago when I first I

453
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: remember when I first started to I had been a

454
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: professional in the industry for for years, and when I

455
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: first started to examine my own actions, and I remember

456
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: it was around a photo I took of Elk, one

457
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: of the first elk I ever killed was in the

458
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: Madison Valley and we took this photo. We took, we stood,

459
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: we The hunt lasted an hour and the photo shot

460
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: photo shoot lasted three hours with the different positions of

461
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: this elk, and and I remember no one taking the

462
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: photo of us cutting it up, or no one taking

463
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: a photo of of of me packing the antlers out,

464
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: no one taking a photo of me doing anything other

465
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: than standing around with this dead elks first elk I've killed.

466
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: And I just remember at some point in that and

467
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: that hunt, just thinking I'm not sure what's going on here,

468
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: Like I'm not sure why I'm doing this, because at

469
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: that point I was a wasn't an editor, an editor

470
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: for a hunting magazine, and companies would invite me out

471
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: as you spoke about it hits home to me, and

472
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: you spoke about like how we've turned hunting into a commodity.

473
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: We use it to sell things, which which changes a

474
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: lot of the motivation for some hunters in the industry.

475
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: And I think that was part of what I was

476
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: struggling with their It's like, why am I really doing this? Yeah,

477
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm eating it, Yeah, there's conservation, but what am I doing? Yeah?

478
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of what I was struggling to

479
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: get at been and and something. I think it really

480
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: the you know, the ultimate revelation it provided me was

481
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: it it's it's sometimes not enough just to follow the

482
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: letter of the law, just what it doing what is

483
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: legal does not completely satisfy our responsibility to this resource.

484
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: And growing up, I for the most part followed the law.

485
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: There definitely some um waverings there, but uh, you know,

486
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: and and I and I feel like by the time

487
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: I had read it, i'd I'd come to agree that

488
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: game laws were there for a good reason and that

489
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: I didn't like to give cops a reason to mess

490
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: with me. But it really, it really um cemented I

491
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: think ideas that I had already gathered from from other

492
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: works and things that and I think that's the This

493
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: is the great beauty of that title, as you to

494
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: go beyond what's required of you as a hunter and

495
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: and and make sure that your actions are defensible and

496
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: beneficial to the resource, and that you do you do

497
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: as much for that animal and those populations and those

498
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: resources you know, as much or more than than they

499
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: do for you, and that you you have that that

500
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: responsibility that it's a that's a given to take. Yeah,

501
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: do you think about um your effort too, and then

502
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: just your own personal feelings and defining the relationship between

503
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: the hunter and the hunted, like how we feel about animals.

504
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 1: You know, how much how much time have you put

505
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: into that and your own personal huntings? Well, it grows

506
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: with time. I mean the first thing you wanted that

507
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to do with with that borrowed gun was

508
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: to find a dead deer after I sent around that direction. Yeah,

509
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: and then of course it became take care of it.

510
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: That was kind of an autopilot. That's why I was there. Ah.

511
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: But the more experiences you have and and the more

512
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: you learn about where you're hunting and the history of

513
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: the place, you know, the Rocky Mountain Front of course

514
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: is a classic. But that first ranger up there Eiler's Coke.

515
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: He spent thirty days in nineteen o five four services

516
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: the first year, and thirty days in nineteen o six,

517
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: and he described what's the Bob Marshall Great Bear Complex now,

518
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: but it was described him by drainage and in thirty

519
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: days das of hunting each year he saw he said,

520
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: I never saw or got a shot at a single

521
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: game animal except one mountain goat. I mean, you could

522
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: trampled back there in sixty days. But that was the

523
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: depth to which the slaughter had gone. And UH, he

524
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: rides and he was a conservation oriented guy, and UH

525
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: the front has got a very rich history of people

526
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: popping up along the way. Sometimes they're in the agency.

527
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: They made it a wilderness before there was a Wilderness Act,

528
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: and uh Sun River Game Preserve was created, and I

529
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: think it was only one dissenting vote in the Montana

530
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: State legislature when that was passed through. Start protecting this stuff.

531
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: And that was from the grassroots rancher from Shotto, or

532
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: maybe it was a businessman I think from Shotto, but

533
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: that we had to do better. Yeah, I had to

534
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: do better. And you feel like we've done better. Yeah,

535
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: certainly we've done better. And of course now the problem

536
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: is again as well life became more abundant, are people

537
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: are more interested in hunting and uh, commerce returns. And

538
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: then when you've got the critter living private and public

539
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: both you have those conflicts and those are the issues

540
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: that your generation is going to have to come to.

541
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: UH A management scheme and it is good for the

542
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: good for the critter that was that was a question

543
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: I've been I've had sitting on my my list for

544
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: a while. That I mean, you're moving us in that

545
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: direction anyway? That you know, the fairchase ethic rose around

546
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: Leopold and Roosevelt and all of those, and by and

547
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: large we have recovered a lot of our wildlife in

548
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: this country. I was just curious to know, you know,

549
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: from from you, from you, how do you approach some

550
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: of these modern um issues of of fair chase and

551
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: hunting ethics? Where where where do you start? When people

552
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: are are talking about I know, like I feel like

553
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: bear baiting is very much in the modern debate. Some

554
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: people would say that by putting out bait, you're creating

555
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: an unnatural situation two to chase an animal that may

556
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: not be fair. Other people would respond that by hunting

557
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: bears over bait, you have the opportunity to properly sex

558
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: the bear, make sure you're taking a boar, preferably mature bore,

559
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: and you will have an opportunity to take a good,

560
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: clean standing shot. Um And and this is something I

561
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: struggle with, and I'm just curious, like you know, having

562
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: being the guy who wrote the book on fair case?

563
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: What what's square? What square one? What? Where? Where do

564
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: you start when trying to parse these difficult discussions, Well,

565
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: you kind of start at midpoint on a spectrum, and

566
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: that that midpoint is where you accept responsibility both for

567
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: the taking of that animal that is equal to your

568
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: responsibility to see to it that that animal was even there.

569
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: In other words, if you've got to realize that you're

570
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: just not a freeloader. And I think there's kind of

571
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: a middle point in the hunter's career where when I

572
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: borrowed that gun and shot that dough, I had really

573
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: I didn't even know why she was out there or

574
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: why the bland was public. And as that awareness grows,

575
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: and you don't have to have that all for your

576
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: first start out of the shoot, but when you when

577
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: you decide you're going to be a hunter, I think

578
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: it would really be well, it's I know, it's to

579
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: your advantage to start viewing it and it's the full

580
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: context of why this is going to even happen, and

581
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: uh that enriches it. My best hunt was when I

582
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: ran into those three guys south of town. I didn't

583
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: even fire a shot or tag anything, or I didn't

584
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: have to drag anything out, but I hadn't experienced that

585
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: added to the beauty of living in the joy of life,

586
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: as Roosevelt called it. I guess I grew upon an

587
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: older all right. That's Jim posits for you. Folks. Really

588
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: in joyed that conversation. If you go back and search

589
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: that episode, you can find the entire thing. It's a

590
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: couple of a couple more hours in there that you

591
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: didn't get to hear. But the story about that Jim

592
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: tells about running into the father and son on the

593
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: trail and seeing the passage of time and that interaction

594
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 1: and seeing kind of what he has meant to hunting

595
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: in the eyes of that father and that son has

596
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: been powerful. He even shed a little tear there during

597
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: that conversation. So uh, I really just wants you to

598
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 1: make sure that if you haven't read his work, if

599
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: you haven't read Beyond for a Chase, go and do that.

600
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: Speaking of a book you need to read. We got

601
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: the next guy coming up here, Colonel Tom Kelly. It's

602
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: gonna be I don't know if it's my favorite podcast,

603
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: but he's definitely my favorite guest of all time. Colonel

604
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: Tom Kelly's a legend. I read his book The Tenth

605
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: Legion before every hunting season, every spring turkey season. So

606
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make Phil read it the spring turkey season.

607
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: When you go in your first hunt homework, read The

608
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: Tenth Legion. Yeah, it's a good homework. You'll like it.

609
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: Um just a little, a little brief bit on what

610
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 1: Tom Kelly means to me. Um. People call him turkey

611
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: huntings poet laureate, and for good reason. It's a man

612
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: that can um strike at the heart of what a

613
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: turkey hunter is, who a turkey hunter is, and why

614
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: they do what they do. And that's it's interesting to

615
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: me as anything. And when I traveled to um Bethesda,

616
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 1: Maryland to meet with the guy, it struck me that

617
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: this part of his life, you know, it's ninety three

618
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: years old. He lives on the eleventh floor of a

619
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: high rise in Bethesda, Maryland. Outside of his apartment, strip malls,

620
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: chain restaurants, traffic jams, all the stuff that a hunter

621
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: doesn't like. And his life there seemed you know, small,

622
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: a little bit hollow, as a man whose whose years

623
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: have have kind of watched go by his wife. His

624
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: beloved wife has passed away two years prior Tom moved

625
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: from his longtime Alabama home up to Maryland where I

626
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: met him. And so there's a little bit of sadness

627
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: in the room for a man that has done so

628
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: much in his life, a man that has done so

629
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: many things along impact all of us. But there's also

630
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: a beauty in it because there's a quote that that

631
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: Tom has in his in his book The Tenth Legion.

632
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: He says, you have to pay for every turkey you kill,

633
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: and the coin you used to pay for them is time.

634
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: And so at this point when we drop into this

635
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: conversation with Tom, he has paid. He has paid time,

636
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: He's paid with time, He's used all his coins. It

637
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: was obvious to me during this conversation that he's he's

638
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: reaching the end of his days, the end of his

639
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: days outside in his days where he can can be free.

640
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: And now he'll he'll soon probably be in a nursing home,

641
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: soon probably be cared for by a nurse, and and

642
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 1: only be able to leave the room when someone helps

643
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: him do it. And so but he still has his patience,

644
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 1: this determination. You know, he moves like he moved like smoke,

645
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: almost to the apartment. I remember writing that after I

646
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: met him. He's so deliberate in the way that he moved,

647
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: because it takes a lot of work to get across

648
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: the room in your nine And so I have a

649
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: lot of feelings and thoughts looking back on this conversation.

650
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: But you can get just as much about the man

651
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: by listening to him speak. So enjoy this little bit

652
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 1: with Colonel Tom Kelly. Mr Kelly, how are you today? Colonel?

653
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for thanks for joining me and having me into

654
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: your home here in Bethesda. Uh. There's a lot of

655
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: things I want to talk to you about, um, but

656
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: the first one is why do you think turkeys was

657
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: the thing that you at famous for writing about? The

658
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: thing that is I think really triggered me into it.

659
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: With my wife. Uh, we were going someplace and she

660
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: said something to me, and she said, you know, I

661
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: hear you telling all these told stories to people about this.

662
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: You might order write that down and maybe somebody would

663
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: want to would want to listen to it. And I

664
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: had no idea about about doing anything like that. And

665
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: I said, all right, I'll try that. And I had

666
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: been at that time, I had been writing. I had

667
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: been setting an occasional story to feel and stream and

668
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: outdoor life. And I used to sell something to uh

669
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: uh till one, sports illustrating. I used to selling them

670
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: sports illustrating before they fell out of a little with

671
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: killing things, you know, and uh, and so I did

672
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: that and I started doing it, and then that triggered

673
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: the whole damn thing. That that triggered to me, I'm

674
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: not at all interested in big a one. I mean,

675
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: I do not want to when I hunt something. And

676
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: this may be cowardice, but when I hunt something, if

677
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: I lose, I want to lose. I don't want to

678
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: lose some arms and legs or get my head knawed off.

679
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to hunt elephants. Who I would be

680
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: trampled by the damn elephant if I if I do

681
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: something wrong. I'm a hun not a sufferer. And and

682
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: that really is what triggered the whole thing. Won't anything else,

683
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: And and then once it started, Uh, the police book

684
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: I did was tenth of Legion. The tenth Legion is

685
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,959
Speaker 1: oh Jesus, tenth Legion must be and it's I don't

686
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: know why I don't walk how many editions? I just

687
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: don't know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And then of

688
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: course that triggered it and then and then when that

689
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: triggered it, and then and what you just meet a

690
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: while with nice folks, you really do you meet a lot? It?

691
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: I agree? I agree, yeah, yeah. And then because I

692
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: think the question what people love about that book, what

693
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: I love about that book is the way you articulated

694
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: the motivation of the turkey hunter, our our relationship with

695
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: the turkey, and our interactions with Yeah, well, if somebody,

696
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: if somebody would, to god, I don't look, I don't

697
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: have any goddamn idea how many turks I've killed. I mean,

698
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: I've been hunting on s nine and and and and uh,

699
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: when I was getting to kill took his family regulart.

700
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: I wish to god I had keptable. Oh John, Yeah,

701
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean, if it was normal, then hooted here and

702
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: hooded dawn, hooded is and did this and did that

703
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: and did the other thing. But oh, okay, So if

704
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: I've been hunting took here for fifty years, more than that,

705
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: more than that, say, almost year. If I've been hunting

706
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: turkis for seven the years, and and if I've killed

707
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: four or five turkeys a year, that's whatever four or

708
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: five times seventy is something like, yeah, three fifty turkeys

709
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: like that, three D fifty D turkeys in your life,

710
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: if you if we were to round up to it. Yeah,

711
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 1: that's a lot of interactions with one animal. Yeah, and

712
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: and and and and The thing about it is, I

713
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: don't care how how much you've done it, and I

714
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 1: don't care how good you get at it. Every damn year,

715
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: one of them is gonna do something to you, and

716
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna think and they, hell, could I have been that?

717
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: Damn dum. It never gets old. It never never ever

718
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: gets old. You feel and you feel that all turkey

719
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: hunters have. You have a hubris, have a confidence that

720
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: you get to a point where you think a bird

721
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: is gonna do something you think you haven't figured out.

722
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: Like why do we continue to return to this confidence?

723
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: Because we don't because he he will destroy it. If

724
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: you get that much confidence, he's gonna break your neck

725
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: with Uh. It's one of the one of the marvelous

726
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: things about about doing it. If if if you told

727
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: me that I could never kill another turkey, I could

728
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: still enjoy taking people because you can take somebody in

729
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 1: and I took his got one characteristic. He cannot hear

730
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: a whisper. If you talk like this, you can hear,

731
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: and you can sit. When I take somebody hunting, I

732
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: sit right here behind him. Yeah, well I can look

733
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: over his shoulder that way. If he choose me with

734
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: the shot gun, he's gonna turn it around and take

735
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: off his boot and pull a trigger with his toll.

736
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: So and I ain't gonna sit there and wait for

737
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: him to do that. But if you can, you can wait,

738
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: and you can whisper him all the way to the gun. Yeah,

739
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: you can say, hey, comes, he comes. They didn't give

740
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: bhind that tree. I don't do anything, And you can

741
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: talk him all the way up there and do it,

742
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: and you can hear them. If you told me I

743
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: could never kill another turkey, I've killed him off. I

744
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: like to eat him. But if you told me, if

745
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: I could double kill another turkey, I could get a

746
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: pile of enjoinment out of taking other people took him. Now,

747
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: as long as I'm as long as I can get

748
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: about like this and this, this can't go on. I mean,

749
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: you know I've moved it along. I've moved along, but

750
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: I ain't gonna last to a hundred and eight or

751
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: a hundred sixteen, And so the end is out. There

752
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: and and just hopefully it will come quick. Listen, the

753
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: first time you heard a turkey gobble? The first time

754
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: I heard it took a gobble. I didn't know what

755
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: it was. My my I had an uncle who waited

756
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: the shipyarded Pasca Google, and he had a friend named Kennedy.

757
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: And the Kennedys had they had three boys. They had

758
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: a boy younger than me, and a boy older than me,

759
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: and a boy who was my age, Pete and Pete

760
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: sort of well, their daddy awoke from my uncle, and

761
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: their daddy lived just north of Pasca Google, Besshippi and

762
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: I lived in Bobile, and I had gone over there

763
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: to visit my uncle, and Pete and I hit it

764
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: off together and he started taking me with him. And

765
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: that's what that's the first take. Yeahhood gobbel was Pete

766
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: and I thought it was a dog pocket it's you know,

767
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: and he said, no, that's a turkey, and and that

768
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: that triggered it. And from then on out take his

769
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: take his turkeys all the wie. What about the first

770
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: time that you made a turkey gobble with your calling abilities? Uh?

771
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: The first time? Well what what? I what? What? I

772
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: fell into the trip of doing. I got one of these,

773
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: one of these box y'all punchers, and uh uh and

774
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: I and I i'd hear you hear tucky gobble, and

775
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: you I try to get pretty close. And then and then, uh,

776
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: the first time I heard one gobble, I knew what

777
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: it was. I knew it was him. It's a it's

778
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: a you when when you don't know nothing. And when

779
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: it was my uncle didn't know the first damn thing

780
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: about turkey hunt. He'd kill some turkeys on deer drives.

781
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: You said, I tell what you shot gun on deer drives?

782
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: And when the when the when the dogs are running

783
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: the dead past the standards. I'd sit there on the

784
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: first gun I had was a single barrel. You sit

785
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: there with a single barrel, and I'd have uh a

786
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: buckshot into single barrel, but i'd have uh number six

787
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: shot in my hand, and you could trigger the gun

788
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: when you do it didn't come in if it weren't

789
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: a deal. If you thought it was a turkey, you

790
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: could trigger the gun and put to think it and

791
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: shoot him by pigeons. You have me out of locks.

792
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: Whatever it is? What is it about that when you're

793
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: a kid, that you just just want something menu and

794
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: you want to say I've done it. You're right, and

795
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: that's it's universal for all childres right, you've got grandchildren now,

796
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: ship he got little things. You know, you're a hunter

797
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: gatherer gather at that age much anything you hunt them

798
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: down and kill them. Uh, our things ain't much and

799
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: claws ain't buds. We have shotgun we got shotguns though,

800
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: we got shotguns. Well, I think, I man, I got

801
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: so many questions for you, but I think it's it's

802
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: it makes sense to kind of try to get your

803
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: perspective on where we are as a modern turkey hunter

804
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: now and where you began. I mean you have you

805
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: have lived through the age of turkey hunting. And before

806
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: we hit recorded, we were talking. We were talking about that,

807
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 1: I think, and I think this is a natural thing

808
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: that a lot of people that hunt turkeys today feel

809
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: because they're so abundant that it might have always been

810
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: that way. It may have the way it is now,

811
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: might be the way that it has been. It was

812
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: a friend of mine named Jim Andrews. He's dead now

813
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: like most of my friends, but Jim Andrews were one

814
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: of these guys. And if you went to someplace Jim

815
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: Andrews was gonna find a damn twicky and if they

816
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,800
Speaker 1: were in there two, he's gonna be killed one. Jim

817
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: Andrews was gonna kill it. And he couldn't doably explain

818
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 1: what you've written about him in the past. I've read it.

819
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: I've read many passes about where he was buried and

820
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: what direction he might be traveling. Yeah, tell me about

821
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: him your relationship. Then you talked about him being I've

822
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: read that that he just was a turkey magnet. He was,

823
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: he was. I said that he couldn't explain it either.

824
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: He couldn't explain it. Hi, his daddy was not a

825
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: turkey hunter. None of his uncle's was a turkey hunter.

826
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: His brother, his brother Henry, was a fight apart and

827
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: and and his brother Henry was a great shot, but

828
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: he was a shifty turkey up. It's just that, well,

829
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: I think the principal characteristic his patients. It's a big bud.

830
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: It's big enough to be you. You you created important,

831
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: send the boom it yourself. Uh, and that's what that's

832
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: what pictures. It's Yeah, and guys like Jim, I mean,

833
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: you've written about this too, Like the friendships that we

834
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: make the connections. We may then see Jim and I

835
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 1: worked together. Yeah, and in fact about the fact Jim

836
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: worked for me, uh, except what he came to Turkey

837
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: and then I worked for Jim. What what is it?

838
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: What is it about turkey hunting that makes that like

839
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: if not makes friendships like that enhances them and makes

840
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: it this is the people? Well if it may be

841
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: like all appreciation, A guy falls in love with Payton

842
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: and then I don't care who he's talking to, he

843
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: wants to talk about painting and paints and how they

844
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 1: did this or sculpture and sculpted in that. Uh. And

845
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: and you know there's all kinds of thing that that

846
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: that that hossil or that Yeah, that black hole, I

847
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 1: did that horse, I did this. Uh, there's this crap

848
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: around here that I did. Uh did did you know?

849
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: You just I don't know. You asked me why? And

850
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: to hell with a guy waste his damn time making

851
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: a fake unicorn when they go such a thing as

852
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: a real unicorn, And I can't answer the question. It

853
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 1: just felt like time to make a guy damn unicorn.

854
00:54:54,440 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: So I'm Mabel, that's fantastic. But yeah, I mean I

855
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: think that you're right. I mean, as a as a hunter,

856
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: as someone who appreciates this, you want to surround yourself

857
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: with people that have equal passions. And for somebody like you,

858
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: your passion is unequal. It's hard to find people that

859
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: that can that come to it like you. Then you

860
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: end up around exceptional folks like Jim andrews Um talk

861
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: about I mean you you've written about burying him, you know,

862
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: or being you know where he was buried, and trying

863
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: to figure out kind of and going to church and

864
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: trying to figure out in the past. You're talking about

865
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: which direction he might have traveled in the afterlife. And

866
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 1: you had an experience with some turkeys that you called in.

867
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: Do you remember that experience? We talk about that. Yeah, yeah,

868
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: here's your mama. I knew if we get when he

869
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 1: introduced to his mama. We he lived in Camden, which

870
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 1: is in off it's it's uh, it's it. It junkes

871
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: you into the Alabama and it don't baby rubles updown.

872
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: And he hunted up around that. And when Jim, when

873
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: Jim got out of school, he went into cow business

874
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: and went broke, and and then he had he he

875
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 1: had to go to work for us for market tumber

876
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: for people, and he would just scratching around making a

877
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: living any damn way he could make a living. And

878
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: he uh he but he never he never, he never lost.

879
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: He never got mad at the world because he would

880
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: he was. He didn't have any money. And he had

881
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: five kids, four four four girls and a boy. And

882
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 1: I still carresfied with some of the kids. They they

883
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: that we still write a little bit back and forth.

884
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: But he was. He was just one of those guys

885
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: that everybody likes. You meet one every once in a while.

886
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: They ain't many, but you meet one everyone. Jim was

887
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: just one of those guys. And I guess I guess

888
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: took he is just liked him the same to him

889
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: when they wouldn't go to anybody. You tell a story

890
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: about when you went turkey hunting after you died, and

891
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: there was five, I think five gobblers that gobbled on

892
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: the roost and gobbled and gobbled and gobbled, and they

893
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: flew down out of the tree and there you were

894
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 1: with your call, and they would gobble at anything. They've

895
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: got little tweeted bird and they would gobblet one another.

896
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: They would gobble at anything, but they ignored you and

897
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: anything like you were, you did not exist. You know

898
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: what it was if if if it was Jim was

899
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: Jim Andrews probably been friend alway, you'd probably been friend

900
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: and you felt that those turkeys gobbling and ignoring you,

901
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: or maybe maybe a song for him. Imation you wish

902
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: it was that way, but you don't know that you

903
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: wish it was his eulogy that way, those that those

904
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: turkeys were giving you one last chance to to see

905
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: which direction he might have traveled. Yeah, yeah, Well, the

906
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: Tenth Legion is I think the thing that most people.

907
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,919
Speaker 1: It's the thing that I've I read it before every

908
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: turkey season. I know a lot of the folks that

909
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: I work with do the same thing. And it's inspired

910
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: since it was published in nineteen seventy three, I mean,

911
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: it's it's inspired many many turkey hunters. And I remember

912
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: and I remember reading so the Tenth Legion was was

913
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: published in nineteen seventy three, and it has inspired me

914
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: to be a turkey more more involved turkey hunter and

915
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: inspired many people to go and try it. I think

916
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: we were and of course got it in my partner.

917
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,959
Speaker 1: We we It's a new edition coming out, Yeah, dish

918
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: coming out in the new book is, well, the new

919
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: book is. I have it here. It's called uh, you're

920
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: still writing books at ninety three. It's called infinite varieties

921
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: that creative And he says title comes from Shakespeare's play

922
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: Anthony and Cleopatrick. I am probably one of the last

923
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 1: few Shakespeare readers, especially in the Turkey anty community. Age

924
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: cannot wither her nor coat, no sale her infinite Every

925
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: time you go out there, he's gonna teach you something.

926
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: Every time you go out there, he's going to out

927
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: small chy in some fresh way you never thought of.

928
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: And it's it's never gonna get old. It's magical magic.

929
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: It's magic, absolute magic when you write that. When you

930
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: write I have some quotes here from from the Tenth Leagion,

931
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: not that you need need me to quote it. But

932
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: when you're you've inspired a lot of people. People call

933
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: you the poet laurea turkey hunting You like that title

934
00:59:53,480 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: sales books, but that it does sales book to meet it.

935
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 1: The tenth Leads is not a book. Really, what's an

936
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: explanation of Turkey hunters? It's it's a it's axlanation of

937
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 1: a thought process. Absolutely, it is. Yeah, and it's it's

938
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: called the tenth Legion because you felt like Caesar's to Yeah,

939
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: Caesar's tenth Legion. And the members the members of the

940
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: Turkey Hunting Army are are uh you have said, like

941
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: exhibit dogged determination, much like the army, And that's why

942
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: that's titled so and they all a hell of a

943
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: lot of people would exactly a little thought process, would

944
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: They wouldn't be that many folks in the National Wild

945
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: Turkey Federation. Well, I remember when you said when you

946
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: began hunting, there was only you know, you remember writing

947
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: this book and thinking maybe a hundred fifty people in

948
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: the world might care. Yeah, because when I figured I

949
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: could here, remember what I paid to God to write it,

950
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: they seem, uh theold ghost on songs in in in

951
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: New York. And it seems to me I did five

952
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: hundred copies, and I think I paid him fourteen hundred

953
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars or some such thing as that. And

954
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: I figured it did there'd be at least some guys

955
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: I knew they didn't know I could read and write.

956
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: They'd buy one around of curiosity, and they would be

957
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: and and and if he quit right there, I would

958
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: probably have gotten my money back and if not, then

959
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: I had a lifetime supply. Cris turned out to be

960
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: a little bit, a good, good deal better than that. Well,

961
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: I think many, like many people regarded as not only

962
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: just it's it's about people, right, It's about people people,

963
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's not about right about two it I

964
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: write about people and what they do. We had one

965
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: specific line. Yeah, so it's not tips in tactics. If

966
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: anybody hasn't read it, shame on you. But if you haven't,

967
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: it's not You're not gonna get the tips and tactics.

968
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: There's I'm in there plenty in there. A lot of

969
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: people going to read it and say, what what this

970
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: guy's talking about you? Well, there's there's the thing you

971
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: said that many people who hunt turkeys do so with

972
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: an intention to detail, a regard for strategy, tax and operations,

973
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: and disregard for personal comfort and convenient that ranks second

974
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,919
Speaker 1: only to war. Said out there and frees your butt

975
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: off into cold rain, you know, hoping a turkey might come.

976
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 1: You gotta be a little bit twisted. I'm pretty twisted. Okay,

977
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: welcome to the live You still you still believe at

978
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: the age of ninety three you have have that same passion.

979
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 1: I mean, oh yeah, it ain't a bit of chang.

980
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: Ain't a bit of chang. Never gonna leave. Uh d No,

981
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,439
Speaker 1: I've already accepted an invitation or two to go next

982
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: to you. I mean you can. You can sit in

983
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: that damn thing right there. You can fool that up

984
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: and put her to the back of a pickup truck.

985
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: If somebody can take me out in the woods the

986
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: way they who had won gobble and dumped me off

987
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,479
Speaker 1: and say I'll come back and get you a nine

988
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: footy and I can hunt. I can hunt up and

989
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: down the rule over there. You can, I can, I

990
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: can get out. I can walk. I walk. I walk

991
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: probably a mile mile of day. I walked the phone

992
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: with the calls down and back and down and getting

993
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: down and back. I got an exercise lady that comes

994
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: by and uh she comes three days of a week

995
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: and and does things like breathing exercises and balance exercises

996
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff. She's real good. She's

997
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 1: an english woman. She is a matter of fact. She

998
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: uh yeah, she she she has just been home to England.

999
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,959
Speaker 1: I mean up in one got children and and does

1000
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: this as a living and yeah, so I and I

1001
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: get around great. I mean, uh and you know, to

1002
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: get out there to be able to now, I don't try.

1003
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: I sold my car and and and uh uh but

1004
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,439
Speaker 1: and it was better. It was I didn't really want

1005
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: to leave home, but my wife didn't. I realize she

1006
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: was dying and really expected to be at home. And

1007
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 1: then with her gone and my daughter word about how

1008
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: I was doing and what I was doing and when

1009
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: I was doing it, it was just more comfortable for

1010
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: her to me move up here where she she can

1011
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: drive here in thirty minutes and find out what I'm

1012
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: doing and and and and make sure I'm taking my best. Yeah. Well,

1013
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: you got a little furniture building furniture up here in

1014
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: this this parent know most of this I built for

1015
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: I got here. I can do some stuff you and

1016
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: I've done a little, um, not much since I've been here,

1017
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: but I can. And as soon as I get through

1018
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: with with my with my souls and hammers and things

1019
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: old at it I got, I can't. I can go back.

1020
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: I gotta chair. I need canan, I cane that chair

1021
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: fush and and I'll go back to doing. But between

1022
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: writing and reading and canan chairs and uh I stay

1023
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: pretty busy. You are busy. Yeah, Well, I'm gonna just

1024
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: want to like in my head as I as I'm

1025
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: turkey hunting, you are the narrator. Like you when I'm

1026
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: turkey hunting. I've read your books so many times that

1027
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: some of the things that you've written become and the

1028
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: turkey's coming in. I'm thinking about the words of that book.

1029
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably true for a lot of people.

1030
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 1: So I have I have people say that to me

1031
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: all the time. Well, you know, you never know what

1032
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: another guy's thinking. But I mean enough people have said

1033
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 1: the same thing. Enough people well know of people at

1034
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: the at the convention when I'm sitting now, A lot

1035
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: of folks who buy books, and we we sell books

1036
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: that we have a book. We have a booth every

1037
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,200
Speaker 1: year David talking out together have a book. We sell

1038
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 1: books and our side books and talk to kids and

1039
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people. A lot of people won't be

1040
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: to they take a picture of a kid sitting on

1041
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: my knee when they take a picture of beholding a kid,

1042
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: and and and uh, I think I don't know. I

1043
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: think maybe they think if they do it, and if

1044
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 1: they talk about it, and if they meet me. I

1045
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 1: think I think it forms a society, and I think

1046
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: that's why they do it, because god knows, I ain't

1047
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 1: pretty well you've been working with that that lady that

1048
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: comes and get you to which bright Yeah, I don't know.

1049
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I woman marries who she married. Anyway,

1050
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: I don't want my wife to figure that out of you.

1051
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,479
Speaker 1: I think I do think that one of the things

1052
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: that is important to me is that when you have

1053
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: an idea or like an appreciation for something and someone

1054
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: else is able to articulate or explain your feeling for

1055
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: that thing in a way that you never could, which

1056
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: is what you were able to do for so many

1057
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: people for turkey hunting, I feel like it develops a relationship. Yeah,

1058
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're right. I mean,

1059
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 1: and I cause because a lot of folks, a lot

1060
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: of folks when I signed stuff on, we want me

1061
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 1: to put something on it about this and that and

1062
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: this and that and this and that and this and that,

1063
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: and you can really I mean, if a guy comes

1064
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: in and it's fine, it's right tone Kelly all bes

1065
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: wishes or good luck, Nick Shea, But if he if

1066
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 1: he wants so h an intellectual dissertation of why he

1067
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: and I think alike, Yeah, I can't write that. I

1068
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 1: just can't do yeah, because people, and a lot of

1069
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 1: folks would want that. I mean, they'll do this, and

1070
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 1: they'll do that, and they want something for their son,

1071
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: and then they'll want something for the other son. And

1072
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: they want me to say one thing for one son.

1073
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 1: And some of them pull out a piece of paper

1074
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: and started reading what they want me to write. I

1075
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: love it. I love do you do you? Did you

1076
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: ever foresee that you would be signing books and that

1077
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: people would think of you in the way that something

1078
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: due No, I felt like, well, you know, it's like

1079
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: I said, I I went into it with no sense

1080
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: of with no sense of anything. I like it and

1081
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: I like to tell people what I like to do.

1082
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: When you when you go to the football game, you

1083
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: gotta you got a special team? Did you like to win?

1084
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: Because you remember bought star here? Remember uh the Green

1085
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: Bay Packers back when they used to be the Green

1086
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: Bay Packers. So time that you feel what do you

1087
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: what do you think? He said? Your wife really is

1088
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: is one of the main reasons why you started writing,

1089
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how do what did she think about your

1090
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,879
Speaker 1: your success and fame. She my wife worked for the FBI,

1091
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: and uh, well, when I when I got out of school.

1092
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 1: My wife was born in a sawmill or town, born

1093
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 1: in a song town. Her daddy worked for the sawmill.

1094
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: And her daddy his name was Leon Bosley, and he

1095
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: was one of those kind of guys did everybody liked him.

1096
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: There was no way not to likely on Boseley. I

1097
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: don't give a damp who you would. There was no

1098
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: way to not to likely on board for instance, he

1099
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: was I would us uh uh we Helen was she

1100
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: was up to teaching school and and uh at the

1101
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 1: at the high school and Century, which is just across

1102
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 1: the line just insoid the Florida Panhall that it's just

1103
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: across the line from Alabama. She was up there teaching

1104
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: school and I went to wake up there for the sawmill,

1105
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 1: and we met and we started dating. And then uh

1106
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: she uh when uh she knew I was, She knew

1107
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 1: I was. She knew I was connected by connection with

1108
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: the with the service and that and when the Korean

1109
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: War started that I was gonna have to go back.

1110
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: But she she left Century and went to work for

1111
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 1: the FBI. Had Bo Bill as a as a as

1112
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: a secretary at the FBI, and uh, we we got

1113
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:00,679
Speaker 1: along great, We we got along great. I I cannot

1114
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 1: remember ever having across the wood water from the time

1115
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: I met her until the day should die. Not one time.

1116
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's unusual. And I was not. And

1117
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: this was in the days when you know, without the

1118
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: cell phones, when you leave working scattered over the area

1119
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: that I was scattered over when we when as I

1120
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: got up, we moved back to a town. It was

1121
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: just about a mile and a half from the town

1122
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 1: she was brought up in, so she was there. She

1123
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: had a mother said on her system, still there. But

1124
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: uh it was, uh, you go you you went out

1125
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: in the woods in the morning, and and she might

1126
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: and as late as as far as I had to

1127
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 1: go out, as much as I had to do, it

1128
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 1: might be simp thirty eight o'clock I eight thirty before

1129
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: I got back. Never any never, never, just to smooth

1130
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: us in all ever that plane. That's just what you

1131
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 1: ever hunt with you once or twice. And she she

1132
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: went and she said, this is fine. But from now

1133
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 1: on out, if anybody asked me what I like to go,

1134
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: tuck you and I would tell him, thank you, But

1135
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: I've already been My wife and I have similar separation

1136
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: the church and state. I yea yeah. I mean you know,

1137
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: I wasn't not chasing girls or getting drunk, or or

1138
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: losing money or wrecking cars. And as long as I

1139
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 1: did that and brought home enough of a paycheck to

1140
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: feed the hondy kid, that was it. Um. I want

1141
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 1: to just read some of your like some of the

1142
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: quotes from tent Legion, and just talked through someone with you,

1143
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: because I think it I've been wanting to do that

1144
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 1: for a long time since I first read your book. UM.

1145
01:12:57,479 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: I think to to the title, there's a quote in

1146
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:03,679
Speaker 1: there that's while fall hunting is all about beauty, spring

1147
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: hunting is warm. Spring hunting well, spring hunting, you're trying

1148
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 1: to kill him. Fall hunting is you you you you

1149
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: know the woods at the woods in the fall, that's

1150
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: when the woods are pretty. I mean the leaves are colored.

1151
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: The uh, the bud migration is on. Uh. Everything out

1152
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: there is is bright and colorful. It ain't hot anymore. Uh.

1153
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: It's a lovely place to be if you don't do

1154
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 1: anything but go out there and wander around. Uh. I

1155
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 1: used to when I even after, even after I was working,

1156
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: even after I was managing that track of timber for

1157
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 1: the sawmill, I carried lunch with me, and uh, there

1158
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: would be it would be a lot of places that

1159
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 1: I would deliberately not eat lunch until I got close

1160
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: on to go eat lunch there, because they were just

1161
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,640
Speaker 1: something into and around the end of the world that

1162
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: soothed you, and it made you feel at home. It

1163
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: made you feel comfortable. Just uh uh it's a you

1164
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 1: become at one with the Wobard's and uh it would

1165
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: have it would have been to me, it would have

1166
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: been pretty grim to to go to a restaurant every

1167
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: day to eat lunch and go to the lunch room

1168
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 1: every day to eat lunch or the United You did

1169
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: that when you were there, but when when you were

1170
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: on your own, and there was there was there were

1171
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: three four places. There was a place on the other

1172
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 1: side of the had more prison farm here, it was

1173
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: rolling to rain, great big damn timber, and uh, a

1174
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 1: lot of poles, a lot of polo, and a lot

1175
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: of solos, a lot of everything. And I a lot

1176
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: of times make arrangements to be close enough to eat

1177
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: where I could go there and eat it. Was a

1178
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 1: couple of places in Choctaw County the same way up

1179
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 1: on up on some high Jacktawk County changes from the

1180
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 1: flat lands to the to the the combination of upland

1181
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,640
Speaker 1: and bottom land with a hell of a lot more hardwood,

1182
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,160
Speaker 1: and it will place us up there that we're just

1183
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: comforting to be in. And then the fact that in

1184
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 1: those kind of places that were comforting to be in

1185
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: with all that variety of tumble, but there were more turks.

1186
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 1: Did you feel a long in your life that there

1187
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: is a medicinal quality to turkey hunting? Like oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

1188
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, but what a lot of folks is

1189
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: just did I kill sixty? You know? Did I kill

1190
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: six with me? It's a hell of a lot molder

1191
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: that's always been a moldering there, always been like and

1192
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: it I I often have this, especially in the machine

1193
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,719
Speaker 1: every time you out ice you know it. I think

1194
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 1: in the springtime, when I go out, it's like you

1195
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: spent your inside all winter, or you're mostly inside if

1196
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 1: you ski or ice fish or whatever, you can get out. Uh,

1197
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:21,680
Speaker 1: spring is just like it's new, it's new. And then

1198
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 1: any any build up of anxiety or stretch you might

1199
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:26,680
Speaker 1: have had during the winter months when you couldn't get

1200
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 1: out as much. It can be a race during that time.

1201
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: You experienced that through your your life, I imagine. Yeah, well,

1202
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,800
Speaker 1: let's see what else we got here. The bird possesses

1203
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 1: a remarkable ability to turn arrogance into hopelessness, which we've

1204
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 1: kind of covered. But you think I got it there

1205
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:54,679
Speaker 1: now and you get out there and yeah, every time

1206
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 1: we talked, we talked about uh, my friend Steven Ronnella

1207
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 1: talks about how it is that we return to that

1208
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:06,719
Speaker 1: arrogance having been beaten so many times. Well, yeah, but well,

1209
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 1: of course, uh, there there will be areas where nobody

1210
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: I don't they have some there have some books that

1211
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:22,400
Speaker 1: show the normal Turkey ranges and in and and and

1212
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 1: and it might cover the whole section and a half

1213
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: thousand acres acres, and they they will range across that

1214
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 1: fift acres fairly regularly. They'll they'll handle one part of

1215
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:39,799
Speaker 1: it in the spring and when the hens are nesting,

1216
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: and they'll do another part of it when uh well

1217
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 1: when when when when the acres get ripe, They would

1218
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 1: not be right at one time of the year, and

1219
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,880
Speaker 1: they and they and and they cover that area pretty

1220
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:56,599
Speaker 1: pretty comfortable, and and I think it's, uh, you get

1221
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 1: it to me working working in the woods and being

1222
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: in the woods, especially when I was balking timber for

1223
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: the sawmill. The lower coastal plain is dull because you've

1224
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 1: got pine and nothing but pine, and you've got mokey

1225
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: bottomed hardwood bottoms and nothing but that. You get a

1226
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: little bit in off of that, and you begin to

1227
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: get this absolute tremendous variety of species, tremendous variety of

1228
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: tumb of types, tremendous variety of different areas, data, data, data,

1229
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 1: turkey or any other animal will work in. And it's

1230
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:39,719
Speaker 1: just it's just more fun than it is down into

1231
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: flat woods. It is it is. I think i've in

1232
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 1: my life when I think about turkey hunting, and I

1233
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: try to think, if you say that your friend Jim

1234
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,759
Speaker 1: Andrews could just think how a turkey thinks, I feel

1235
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 1: like that's the skill I'm developing. I feel like that's

1236
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 1: you're probably at all. Probably it's like the one I

1237
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 1: want to develop. It. You probably if I can think

1238
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: where he wants to be or think where he's going,

1239
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, since the going the air COEs, I never

1240
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 1: see anything over there. But if I go over here,

1241
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 1: I see him all the time. I'm going every damn time.

1242
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 1: And I've recently moved to the move to the west

1243
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 1: where you have these big expanses of public land or

1244
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 1: you this year I did it a couple of times

1245
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: where you roll into a place you know, you don't

1246
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 1: know anything about the landscape, anything about the birds. And

1247
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 1: the thing is now it's so easy to find out.

1248
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 1: You got you got to You got the Resource Planning Act,

1249
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:38,680
Speaker 1: which cruise every acre in the United States is recruised

1250
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:43,800
Speaker 1: every ten years. And you got maps, you got you got,

1251
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 1: you got Google. You can call up a map. You

1252
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:50,639
Speaker 1: can call up a map on Google. Look, I could

1253
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: call I can call up a map. You call up

1254
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 1: a map on Google, and you can see and and

1255
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: and they update the damn thing all along. And if

1256
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 1: you'll call always balked in your front Yaddacincy. It seems

1257
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 1: to call that does see you can goddamn need to

1258
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 1: read the license tame. Yeah, we have a mapping system

1259
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 1: now on your phone. You can Yeah, you can see.

1260
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:13,439
Speaker 1: It's called on X. You can see pretty much. You

1261
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 1: can look at a ridge, you can see the topographical features.

1262
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely a turkey would definitely go there, and then you're

1263
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 1: gonna find it and maybe you're right, maybe wrong, but

1264
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 1: you do have a leg up. Yeah, that's for sure.

1265
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: This is probably I don't know. Of all the quotes

1266
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: I like, this is maybe my favorite. You have to

1267
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: pay for every bird you kill, and the coin you

1268
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: used to pay for them is time. Right. You cannot hurry.

1269
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 1: You can't say I got thirty minutes. I'm gonna run

1270
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 1: out to section fourteen. They kill a turkey and run

1271
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: right back. You can't say it to your wife. Okay,

1272
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 1: Thanksgivings coming and then laws are coming down here. I'll

1273
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 1: kill a turkey to saft dudey to drop it office

1274
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 1: yard so you can be cooking it tomorrow. One schedules

1275
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: you can't do. Another one you said is you don't

1276
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 1: hunt turkeys because you want to. You hunt turkeys. You

1277
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: have to imagine a man that's been doing it for

1278
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 1: eighty years. It's pretty stuck. Here's another one when you

1279
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: there's a long one. But will you talk about what

1280
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: happens when you're a turkey hunter and how you explain

1281
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 1: to other people? You say, he also knows that when

1282
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 1: he comes back at home empty handed as he will

1283
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: do regularly. He will have no satisfactory explanation. He is

1284
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 1: well aware, for he has met dozens of them, of

1285
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: the numbers of people that will approach him on street

1286
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 1: corners and in bars, and that parties who open each

1287
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: conversation with, well, did you get him? When he answers no,

1288
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 1: they will be off and running. They will tell him

1289
01:21:55,920 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: in delighted tones, and in the clearest detail the story,

1290
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 1: or even friend of theirs who has a feeble minded nephew,

1291
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: of how this nephew is occasionally allowed home on leave

1292
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 1: from the state funny farm, how that the last time

1293
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:14,559
Speaker 1: this poor defective creature was home week before the last,

1294
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 1: he went out in the woods just behind the house,

1295
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: sat on the log with a turkey yelper that was

1296
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 1: given away as a souvenir by a typewriter company nineteen

1297
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:27,360
Speaker 1: thirty seven. He yelped twice and killed a turkey that

1298
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: way twenty three pounds. The exclamation of it, and that

1299
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:39,480
Speaker 1: that story, right, yeah, And it explains why it's so magical,

1300
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: because you can never ever, you never mastered, you can

1301
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 1: never get good at you, You will never get good

1302
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 1: at you. You can get good at it, you will

1303
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 1: know a mastery will do. And every time you feel

1304
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 1: you have the mastery that that crazy horble you you

1305
01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:59,200
Speaker 1: look like Hi and hill good, I have been so

1306
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 1: goddamn don't you really and truly are another one. My

1307
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 1: This is the one that I'll close with because I

1308
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:14,559
Speaker 1: think this is the one that most people that's at

1309
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,599
Speaker 1: the end of the tenth legion, and I think it

1310
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: it really encapsulates everything perfectly. The first turkey that I

1311
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 1: ever came to be on the ground did it a

1312
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 1: long time ago. I sat there with my hands shaking,

1313
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 1: my breath short, my heart hammering so hard. I could

1314
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: not understand why he cannot hear it. The last turkey

1315
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:34,919
Speaker 1: that came to me last spring had exactly the same effect.

1316
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 1: And the day that this does not happen to me

1317
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 1: is the day that I quit. I don't think I'll

1318
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 1: quit that. I think that will be the day that

1319
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 1: they close a little bit coffin that that final thump

1320
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:55,280
Speaker 1: you won't hear. Yeah, I mean, you've done this for

1321
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,720
Speaker 1: so long, You've you've put so much into it, you know,

1322
01:23:57,760 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 1: it defines a lot of your professional and personal life.

1323
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 1: And then and then, of course, God knows God, I've

1324
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:07,640
Speaker 1: gotten some money back. That's that's the marvelous thing. And

1325
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 1: I didn't get into it. I didn't sit down and say,

1326
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 1: I believe I was stalled writing about turkeys and make

1327
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:17,040
Speaker 1: up pile of money. Colonel Kelly, is there something you

1328
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: would say to turkey hunters of the future kind of

1329
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 1: about your experience at the turkey hunter and what you've

1330
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 1: been able to do. We need, we need to we

1331
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 1: need to work well. I don't know, I don't know

1332
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: how you could do it, but we need to because

1333
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 1: we are really and truly losing turkey hunters. We're losing

1334
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 1: hunters every year. Every year, every state I think shows

1335
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 1: a diminution in the number of licenses, and there's a

1336
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:50,600
Speaker 1: pile of things cruel to the animals. Uh, why do

1337
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:54,479
Speaker 1: you shoot towards polar illness of things? Why this? Why that?

1338
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: Why that? Why do you take all that trouble? Why

1339
01:24:57,360 --> 01:24:59,800
Speaker 1: don't you spend home and we spend some time at

1340
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,640
Speaker 1: home what your kids instead of it up down to

1341
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 1: goddamn road. Uh? That that we've got to get. I

1342
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: think we make him do it in time, but we

1343
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:17,920
Speaker 1: gotta get the world to understand that there are different

1344
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 1: kind of hobbies and your hobby is simply one of

1345
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of hobbies. Uh and and

1346
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: then the fact that you can eat what you is

1347
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 1: a there's an added thing, but that we we got,

1348
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 1: we gotta. If we don't do that, uh, well they're

1349
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:41,600
Speaker 1: gonna be I don't know how long it's gonna be,

1350
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 1: but we could come to the point where, well, you like,

1351
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:49,200
Speaker 1: for instance, now I think in Australia you can't own

1352
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:53,360
Speaker 1: a weapon of any kind. Now, there's places in this

1353
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:58,719
Speaker 1: country where you know they've taken they've taken all deadly

1354
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: weapons away from any they way, except pocket knives and

1355
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But they they they they're getting it well.

1356
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:12,519
Speaker 1: And and and the move a riot. The strata needs

1357
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,200
Speaker 1: to be like this, It needs to be that thick.

1358
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 1: Well you can play in any in any part of

1359
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: it you want to play and stay out of jail.

1360
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 1: Right about that, I think the last question I have

1361
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 1: for you is if you could speak to say the

1362
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 1: last third he'll ever kill, and you could have a

1363
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:36,280
Speaker 1: conversation with that Turkey, what would you what would you say?

1364
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:40,080
Speaker 1: I wish there was one move behind you. I wish

1365
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 1: you wasn't the least one. I guess I grew up

1366
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 1: on an older all right. That was Colonel Tom Kelly,

1367
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 1: legend in the Outdoor Space. He's on the anniversary edition

1368
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:56,880
Speaker 1: of the Tenth Legion. So go buy the Tenth Legion,

1369
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:00,719
Speaker 1: go read it and remember this good man. He's not dead,

1370
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:05,160
Speaker 1: but remember him anyway, remember his work. Can you talk

1371
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 1: about old people like they're dead. That's not true. Tom

1372
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: still alive and kick And I talked to him not

1373
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:13,880
Speaker 1: long ago, and so you know, he might get out

1374
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 1: in the woods this season. Even man, maybe I'll take him.

1375
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:19,080
Speaker 1: Hopefully I can hook up and get him out in

1376
01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:21,120
Speaker 1: the woods for turkeys. Let him hit a box call

1377
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 1: calling in for us. That'd be great. So that's one

1378
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: of my life goals. But we're gonna get out to

1379
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 1: the next one. The next one was was it PP?

1380
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 1: This is PP? Right? Phil? You were around for Valarious Geist? Yes,

1381
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 1: I was around. You were in the room right when

1382
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 1: he did the recordinglarious, hilarious guys. Um talk about presence, Phil,

1383
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:41,320
Speaker 1: talk about a man that comes in the room and

1384
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 1: commands the presence. Yeah, and it's not like he's boisterous

1385
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:46,559
Speaker 1: or anything. He just has kind of this uh this

1386
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 1: air about him. Everything from what he wore, to how

1387
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 1: he spoke, to how he told the story. I remember

1388
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:54,800
Speaker 1: he walked in the room, yeah here in the main

1389
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 1: area of the meat eater offices, and immediately everybody was

1390
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:01,639
Speaker 1: just drawn to him, moths still flame as it were.

1391
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 1: People started to realize who that was, and this is,

1392
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 1: you know, a pretty unique place where everybody might know

1393
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,680
Speaker 1: who that guy is. But after we aired this podcast,

1394
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 1: I realized not a lot of people knew who Vilarious

1395
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 1: Guist was. And that's pretty sad because Vlarious Guist is

1396
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:19,240
Speaker 1: one of the most important figures of our time and hunting,

1397
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:23,320
Speaker 1: so that for me, it felt like an honor to

1398
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: sit down with him. But after we recorded and I

1399
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 1: saw all of your reaction, I felt even more lucky

1400
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: to help bring this man to you, his story, his

1401
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:34,960
Speaker 1: story of life, and most like Jim Pozzle has cried

1402
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 1: during his episode, Tom Kelly cried during his episode, and

1403
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Vlarious Guist cried a little bit during his episode and

1404
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 1: it was about it. He was talking about a pet

1405
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:49,120
Speaker 1: moose when he cried a little strange, but I liked it.

1406
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 1: So a lot of these guys are are telling stories

1407
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 1: of their past, and I think that's another kind of

1408
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 1: through line for this best of these guys are are

1409
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:03,559
Speaker 1: reliving their path, talking about their great works and enjoying

1410
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 1: what a story can do for all your listeners. And

1411
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,200
Speaker 1: so we're gonna get to another one of my favorite

1412
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:14,719
Speaker 1: podcasts of all time. Definitely one of my favorite people

1413
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 1: and are really really, really life changing conversation that I

1414
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 1: had with Dr Hilarious Geist enjoy. I guess I grew

1415
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,560
Speaker 1: up on an older There's no way to really transition

1416
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:33,639
Speaker 1: to the North American model from this conversation, but we're

1417
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 1: gonna do it anyway. So this is what I spent

1418
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:39,240
Speaker 1: two winters. Yeah, this spas easy studying stone sheep and

1419
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 1: mountain goats and uh of course catebou and moos and

1420
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,400
Speaker 1: everything else, but had studied moose before that, and moose

1421
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,040
Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. It's a great great speaking

1422
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: with high regard about most I mean, I think you, oh,

1423
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 1: I love them. Of all the things that we've talked

1424
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:58,559
Speaker 1: about thus far, like your love your love of Moses,

1425
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 1: absolutely very apparent. Well, they are all tay. Moose are incredible,

1426
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:07,760
Speaker 1: incredible animals. You see if my my book Deer of

1427
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 1: the World, I wrote quite extensively about moose and because

1428
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: I'm a German, I was able to get the experience

1429
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: from Europe into the English language, and there was quite

1430
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 1: a bit of that. You see. The moose was quite

1431
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 1: a cultural animal in Europe. For instance, in Sweden it

1432
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:29,439
Speaker 1: was used for postal service in winter. Yeah, I was

1433
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:32,400
Speaker 1: going to say that, And it was an attempt was

1434
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 1: made by one of the Swedish kings to put a

1435
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:38,240
Speaker 1: whole regiment of dragoons on top of moose because they

1436
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: make a superlative and I mean it, a superlative mount.

1437
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:46,679
Speaker 1: And had that succeeded, I can just see this miracle

1438
01:30:46,720 --> 01:30:50,679
Speaker 1: weapon because when horses for the first time confront moose,

1439
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 1: they see a ghost and they spook. So if that

1440
01:30:56,320 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 1: cavalry regiment of dragoons would have run into another, there

1441
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: would have been horses scattered from here up and down

1442
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:07,080
Speaker 1: picturing this. That's right. But it's failed because moose are

1443
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 1: very fickle in feeding, and that's the difficulty. They make

1444
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 1: a fantastic mount, so fantastically. Yes, throughout history, Yes, this

1445
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:19,800
Speaker 1: is this is common, this is history. I'm not I'm

1446
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 1: not putting anything onto you. I don't think you are.

1447
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:26,240
Speaker 1: It's very excited about this idea and in Russia. Yeah,

1448
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:33,240
Speaker 1: when the Conqueresce of severe began, they they discovered that

1449
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 1: anybody mounted on moose could out around the Cossacks because

1450
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:40,200
Speaker 1: the moose will run much faster and much more better

1451
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:44,240
Speaker 1: over uneven terrain. Yeah. Now, if you take a tame

1452
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 1: moose and trained him to carry a pack, you put

1453
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: on the pack. And the Russians have done that, by

1454
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:53,160
Speaker 1: the way, they packed these moves with very delicate instruments,

1455
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:58,440
Speaker 1: because that moose will carry that pack without the slightest

1456
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:03,920
Speaker 1: movement of anything through swamp. He will swim through raging

1457
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:08,439
Speaker 1: rivers with that, he will crawl underneath dead faults, he

1458
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 1: will slither over top of dead faults. In the evening

1459
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:17,000
Speaker 1: he will deliver you that pack undisturbed. That tame moots,

1460
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:23,120
Speaker 1: that's right. How they so easy? Oh, there's such babies,

1461
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:26,120
Speaker 1: some of the cute things. Oh they're they're they're wonderful.

1462
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: They're very very they're very curious. Yeah, they're very sweet,

1463
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 1: and they follow you around about it. They are sweet

1464
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:37,360
Speaker 1: and they have such a lovely song. You just make

1465
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:41,759
Speaker 1: a few they can't. Yeah. So for instance, one baby moots,

1466
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 1: it was a little bull had learned that with mud

1467
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 1: defeat he can't get into the house, so he would

1468
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:53,200
Speaker 1: call lift his legs, wait till they were cleaned, and

1469
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:55,320
Speaker 1: then he went in and let darl sat down beside

1470
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:58,759
Speaker 1: the fireplace. That was sort of the typical thing. They're

1471
01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 1: very curious. They will follow you around. They put that

1472
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 1: big nose into everything that you have, and so on

1473
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: so forth. And to give you some examples, a forester

1474
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: raised one female and she loved to go hunting. I

1475
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:16,280
Speaker 1: love to go hunting with him. If she heard a

1476
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:18,400
Speaker 1: gun going off in the distance, she would take off.

1477
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 1: And the foresters in East Germany were very surprised how

1478
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: accurate she could track with her nose. Yeah, they said,

1479
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:28,920
Speaker 1: she's as good as the best tracking blood track moose.

1480
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:33,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they can track lost it. This is the best.

1481
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:36,599
Speaker 1: Oh god, now it gets even better because this forester

1482
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 1: um So when he took the shotgun, the moose was

1483
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 1: right there and they went out. But moose also have

1484
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 1: the habit, and they don't kick that habit of suddenly

1485
01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:52,360
Speaker 1: up and they're gone for a little walk hundred thirty

1486
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: miles away, I mean that. Yeah, So the moose was

1487
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 1: gone for a while and the forester happened to be

1488
01:33:57,680 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 1: in a boat and one of the canals and he's

1489
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: poor link down and suddenly there the moose shows up.

1490
01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 1: And the moose recognizes the foresters that's mother, and she

1491
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 1: jumps turns over the boat. There you are. I can

1492
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:17,840
Speaker 1: listen to moose stories like this one, this one, this one, Yeah,

1493
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 1: this one is a bit tragic one. Last one. It's

1494
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 1: a bit tragic because she was a pest, now is

1495
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 1: about it. And when the forester was transferred to another

1496
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,639
Speaker 1: district that quite long distance away, they thought the moose

1497
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:34,800
Speaker 1: would stay. She didn't. She found them or a long

1498
01:34:34,840 --> 01:34:39,360
Speaker 1: distance and they decided at this point, no, we do

1499
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 1: not want you. Now you remember that every moose experienced

1500
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: that in his lifetime. There comes a point when there's

1501
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 1: a calf, the female says no more, and that moose understood.

1502
01:34:53,400 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: And what happened next Briggs tears to buy eyes. She

1503
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: appeared frequently at night standing under the window. Oh you see,

1504
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: I'm still moved by that. This is what moose are.

1505
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 1: They are like a six foot dog. They're sweet, absolutely sweet. Oh,

1506
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: they make wonderful mounts and even the biggest bulls. Yeah,

1507
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 1: during the rut, that's a bit awkward at that time,

1508
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 1: But then I see pictures of a nice bull moose

1509
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,960
Speaker 1: with anderss flared being tame around the house and the

1510
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:35,559
Speaker 1: three year old kid being placed on his back and

1511
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 1: he runs around. I feel do you feel with moose?

1512
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 1: These are there with every animal that can be labeled

1513
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:47,559
Speaker 1: as gregarious. Well, I'll tell you the following when by

1514
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,840
Speaker 1: the time I finished in bamp National Park with my

1515
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:54,400
Speaker 1: big horns, the females physically try to keep me in

1516
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 1: the group, physically block my way, deliberately pushed me back in,

1517
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 1: and when they broke, they tried to follow me, and

1518
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,599
Speaker 1: they followed me everywhere, and the males attacked me. Some

1519
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 1: people might ask, given your relationship to you've studied goats,

1520
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:13,800
Speaker 1: you studied mountain goats, you studied wild sheep, you've studied moose,

1521
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:18,800
Speaker 1: you studied how do you still could be a hunter?

1522
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 1: I would not ask that, but some mindy, how do

1523
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:24,240
Speaker 1: you answer that question? How do you still a moose

1524
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:28,200
Speaker 1: knowing that it brings you to tears? The point the

1525
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:36,200
Speaker 1: point of the matter is hunting is provision. You're bringing food. Yes,

1526
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:38,160
Speaker 1: I will keep the antlers of the moose that I kill.

1527
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: It's a treasured member of one. I have no difficulties

1528
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,760
Speaker 1: say that is food, and the only obligation I have

1529
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:50,880
Speaker 1: is to kill that animal as quickly as possible. That's

1530
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:53,719
Speaker 1: my only obligation in this regard. And the other obligation

1531
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 1: is not to waste. Uh. It's like overwhelmingly pragmatic. The

1532
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:02,639
Speaker 1: vast deer that I killed was a mule, your dough

1533
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:07,639
Speaker 1: I brought back. Of course, Grandma and I were great pals,

1534
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 1: to say the very least. She took the head and

1535
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 1: she made head chees out of it. Now, how many

1536
01:37:12,439 --> 01:37:14,040
Speaker 1: people will take the head of a mule they make

1537
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:16,879
Speaker 1: hetchees out of it? Not many, not many. It's delicious

1538
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 1: head cheese. To this day, when I kill a buck,

1539
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:24,599
Speaker 1: and I do all the cutting myself and so on,

1540
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 1: the last thing that I do is I skinned the

1541
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:31,840
Speaker 1: head and I carefully with a very very sharp scalpel

1542
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 1: remove the edible meat. And that makes a magnificent stew,

1543
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 1: magnificent as one of the best tasting stews you can head.

1544
01:37:40,200 --> 01:37:43,040
Speaker 1: It's only once a year or twice a year, depending

1545
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:45,400
Speaker 1: on many bucks I killed. Now I kill one or

1546
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 1: two bucks a year. That's that's it, or nothing, depends

1547
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:52,679
Speaker 1: on the circumstances. But and I don't waste the bones.

1548
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 1: The bones are so wonderful in stock. In fact, I

1549
01:37:56,680 --> 01:38:02,120
Speaker 1: am almost fanatical about bone stock. I boiled two big

1550
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:05,280
Speaker 1: parts of bone stock a week. For the first thing

1551
01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: I'll do when I get home is I'll be doing

1552
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:10,000
Speaker 1: just that bone stock. Of course, you add a few

1553
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: more things like chicken feet. Chicken gives us and so on.

1554
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 1: Pigfoot is a good thing so that you have a

1555
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: very gelatinous result. Of course, gin ummer and well all

1556
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:29,439
Speaker 1: all other goodies into it as well. But usually there

1557
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:32,160
Speaker 1: are three species of animals and seven eight species of

1558
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 1: plants which go into my stock. As such, it's very

1559
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:39,599
Speaker 1: very healthy, and it has kept me free of especially

1560
01:38:39,640 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 1: colds and influences. Haven't had a cold enough for three years. Yeah,

1561
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: it's that. That's that's kind of let's talk about kind

1562
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 1: of the ethos of of our company and what we

1563
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 1: do and the reason I joined this, yes, and I'm

1564
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 1: in Bozeman, and that we were sitting here is very

1565
01:38:56,840 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 1: much what you're talking about, the idea that we can

1566
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 1: be pragmatic but also feel an emotion for this animal

1567
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:08,160
Speaker 1: betaking up and we can go a step further. And

1568
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:10,640
Speaker 1: you are aware that I'm writing my second book on

1569
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 1: human evolution. Yes, So one of the things that I'm

1570
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:16,960
Speaker 1: very much aware of is that we have biochemical pathways

1571
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:23,360
Speaker 1: which evolved only because we eat meat. The first biochemical pathway,

1572
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,560
Speaker 1: for instance, is will that justest the digestion of elastin,

1573
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:29,959
Speaker 1: which is found in muscle fibers and only in animals.

1574
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 1: And you and I share the same enzyme elastez, which

1575
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 1: suggested that tells you something. Yeah, the one that I

1576
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:43,400
Speaker 1: really like, the one that I really like. Other trans fats, well,

1577
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 1: if you take trans fats in margarine or trans fats

1578
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:49,080
Speaker 1: in oils, they are awful. They are very very bad

1579
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:54,080
Speaker 1: for your health. Never eat the bloody things. But take

1580
01:39:54,120 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 1: a peek at what you find in male milk, or

1581
01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:01,400
Speaker 1: in cheese or in butter. That are trans fats and

1582
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:03,880
Speaker 1: cheese and butter and milk. You know where they come

1583
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:07,519
Speaker 1: from from natural hydrogenation in the room of the cow

1584
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 1: or the sheep of whatever it is, and you know

1585
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:14,639
Speaker 1: what your body does with them. You have an enzyme

1586
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:18,960
Speaker 1: specifically to pick up those trans fats and change them

1587
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:23,960
Speaker 1: into conjugated lino lake acid, which you need for brain development.

1588
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 1: Now that tells me that we've been eating the fat

1589
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:35,640
Speaker 1: of ruminants for a very very long time. And you

1590
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:37,800
Speaker 1: need you need, by the way, meat very much for

1591
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:41,360
Speaker 1: brain development. That cannot be overstated. And we've talked about

1592
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:45,160
Speaker 1: that here on this podcast with a Professor Willia von

1593
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 1: hippel Than and Queens when we talked about human evolutionary

1594
01:40:48,080 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 1: biology and kind of philosophy of and not only are

1595
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 1: those pathways created through that, but are our social structure,

1596
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:00,360
Speaker 1: how we communicate with each other, how we set up

1597
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:06,600
Speaker 1: our societies was often driven by no. No. Hunting was vitally,

1598
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 1: vitally important right from the outset in human evolution. The

1599
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:13,679
Speaker 1: moment we became humans, we were killers. Were such efficient

1600
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:18,760
Speaker 1: killers that we dramatically changed the bow diversity of Africa

1601
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:21,599
Speaker 1: and continued to chase to change it. I have written

1602
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:23,160
Speaker 1: the whole chapter on that. I'm going to read it.

1603
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 1: Let's get that. We gotta get it before we go here.

1604
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:28,080
Speaker 1: The North American model a while left conservation because I

1605
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: would I would say that I believe most people will

1606
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 1: know your name from that h in the in in

1607
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:35,960
Speaker 1: the sense of our audience, and then just in the

1608
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:40,639
Speaker 1: general sense, because it is in my mind, the most

1609
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:45,120
Speaker 1: important set of principles that we have in wildlife and

1610
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,360
Speaker 1: conservation and in any model across the world which you

1611
01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 1: have vast experience, north American model is. Yeah, it's a model,

1612
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: and it is a real wonderful creation of North American society.

1613
01:41:58,439 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 1: It is a gift, a cult shill gift to the world.

1614
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. Now when you we have we've had we've

1615
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:08,599
Speaker 1: just we've heard from Shane here he called us earlier.

1616
01:42:09,040 --> 01:42:11,040
Speaker 1: We've had Shane on this podcast before to talk about

1617
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:14,400
Speaker 1: the origins of North American Model, his role in marketing it.

1618
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: For lack of God, thanks God, thanks Without Shane, it

1619
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't have flown. You know what a voice he was, Yes,

1620
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 1: he wasn't. Also John Oregon was another one of them.

1621
01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:25,720
Speaker 1: But those those people, it would have failed because I

1622
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 1: was condemned when I first published that model. Not yeah,

1623
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 1: when I first published the completensive model. The world of

1624
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 1: society wouldn't review the book. Yeah, they took Shane and

1625
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:39,400
Speaker 1: other and took of them on the road, and when

1626
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 1: they did basically that difference to conference, right, they did

1627
01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 1: talk about these things I in debt forever, but that Yeah,

1628
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:48,960
Speaker 1: so let's talk about the you know, the origins of

1629
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:51,120
Speaker 1: of the model, where it came from. And then then

1630
01:42:51,120 --> 01:42:53,040
Speaker 1: get to because some of the hardships you had pushing

1631
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: it for well, let me put it this way. I

1632
01:42:56,680 --> 01:43:01,040
Speaker 1: was interested in the early early nine in the nineties

1633
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:10,400
Speaker 1: and seventies about how to make wildlife, um well pay

1634
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:13,160
Speaker 1: for itself or it's a bad way of putting it,

1635
01:43:13,200 --> 01:43:16,360
Speaker 1: but how do I make wild that more valuable? And

1636
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 1: in my innocence in those days, I thought that maybe

1637
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:22,760
Speaker 1: game farming would be a way to go. And I

1638
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 1: had God, thanks a bit of money, and I organized

1639
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:29,919
Speaker 1: the conference where game farmers from South Africa, from Texas,

1640
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 1: from Alberta, places like England and son came and where

1641
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:37,559
Speaker 1: we had a wonderful set of papers and discussions, and

1642
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: that was published by the i u C And in

1643
01:43:39,280 --> 01:43:41,680
Speaker 1: two volumes, and I was the editor. Fritz Walta, my

1644
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:44,920
Speaker 1: dear friend, was the editor as well. And as I

1645
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:50,040
Speaker 1: was editing this, I suddenly realized, Oh my God, to

1646
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:55,639
Speaker 1: push that is an absolute idiocy in North America because

1647
01:43:55,720 --> 01:44:00,240
Speaker 1: what it does it would destroy your system of wild

1648
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:02,680
Speaker 1: of conservation. Now you you didn't know that you have

1649
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:04,559
Speaker 1: a system of wild of conservation. I was just gonna

1650
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:07,479
Speaker 1: say that, like we weren't aware that, in fact that

1651
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 1: the stimulus to write it down came from a discussion

1652
01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:16,160
Speaker 1: I had with two senior colleagues of the Canadian Wildlife Service.

1653
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 1: They were pushing game farming and I said to them,

1654
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:21,640
Speaker 1: for heaven's sake, what are you doing. Don't you realize

1655
01:44:21,760 --> 01:44:24,080
Speaker 1: that you're destroying your system of wildlife conservation? And they

1656
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 1: both shot back to me, we have no system of

1657
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:28,360
Speaker 1: WORLDLFE conservation. I said, you damn rights you have. When

1658
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:31,640
Speaker 1: I'll write it down for you, take a break. We

1659
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:34,120
Speaker 1: need to take a brief moment to think about that statement.

1660
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 1: And this is after many of the like the key

1661
01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 1: legislation of our time, that that built our models right

1662
01:44:42,360 --> 01:44:46,120
Speaker 1: in other ways, what I did was I summarized that

1663
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 1: existing model the genius had. The model is not I,

1664
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 1: it's you. Yeah, not me, Well no, it has been.

1665
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,840
Speaker 1: You see all the principles that model have gone through

1666
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:03,400
Speaker 1: the heart school of democ cractic debate. They survived. There

1667
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 1: is not a person that this world who has the

1668
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:09,679
Speaker 1: wisdom to construct that model. It could only have happened

1669
01:45:09,840 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 1: culturally over time. And you reverse and if your reverse time,

1670
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,160
Speaker 1: and listener to this podcast will well know we talked

1671
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:17,680
Speaker 1: about this often. You reverse time, you think about in

1672
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: six and thirty seven the first National Wildlife Conference that together, right,

1673
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:32,519
Speaker 1: But no American could have written that model. No, you're

1674
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:35,280
Speaker 1: Americans who wrote about that had a totally different thing.

1675
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:38,519
Speaker 1: And you can look at Aldo Leopold's book Game Management. Yeah,

1676
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:43,080
Speaker 1: and take a look at Larry hans John's introduction where

1677
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: he speaks about this. It's a totally different way of

1678
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:49,760
Speaker 1: looking at it. Yeah. Well, I was. I'm European, as

1679
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:54,519
Speaker 1: you know, and the I was very familiar with the hunting,

1680
01:45:55,000 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 1: very deeply familiar with the hunting in Europe. And when

1681
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: I wrote that model, basically when I started it, I

1682
01:46:05,320 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 1: contrasted it what you do in North America comparing what

1683
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:14,360
Speaker 1: you do in Europe. Yeah, and wrote that down. So,

1684
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:20,200
Speaker 1: for instance, you have the wildlife large wildlife largely except

1685
01:46:20,200 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 1: for for in the well Ford also in the public domain,

1686
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 1: but you don't have that in Europe, although by law

1687
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:32,040
Speaker 1: it should be reality is while that is privately controlled. Yeah.

1688
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 1: So it was one step after the other. And I

1689
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:38,040
Speaker 1: first wrote out a model with four steps, then I

1690
01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:41,080
Speaker 1: thought about it, eventually developed it to seven steps, which

1691
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:44,919
Speaker 1: are found in my book which I published in McTaggart

1692
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:48,519
Speaker 1: Cowan together, and there I had the most detailed in

1693
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:50,479
Speaker 1: some regards that still as one of the most details

1694
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 1: accounts of the North American system. While of conservation, it had,

1695
01:46:53,479 --> 01:46:57,080
Speaker 1: by the way, a review of chronic wasting disease. It

1696
01:46:57,200 --> 01:47:00,160
Speaker 1: had a review of the tuberculosis outbreaks. And there this

1697
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:05,599
Speaker 1: is you know, that's right, that's right, that's right, because

1698
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:09,639
Speaker 1: most of your chronic basics is basically spread by game farms.

1699
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:13,360
Speaker 1: But somebody said in the United States, nicely, c WD

1700
01:47:13,479 --> 01:47:16,840
Speaker 1: is spread by trucks very much. But well, and when

1701
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:19,120
Speaker 1: you quarify this morale in a way, the fact that

1702
01:47:19,160 --> 01:47:22,599
Speaker 1: it's driven by like your study, you know, your studies

1703
01:47:22,640 --> 01:47:25,000
Speaker 1: and game farms. And then well I probably expended to

1704
01:47:25,120 --> 01:47:29,760
Speaker 1: papers yeah on it. So and the very last one

1705
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:32,640
Speaker 1: that by that was quite accepted I presented at an

1706
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 1: international conference in Ireland because one of the gentleman who

1707
01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:39,160
Speaker 1: invited me had studied and he said, this is the

1708
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:41,360
Speaker 1: best model we know in the world, and why don't

1709
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 1: you expound on it? And I emphasized there its role

1710
01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 1: in public health because most of the human diseases we

1711
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:53,719
Speaker 1: have come from wildlife or tame animals or domestic animals. Yeah,

1712
01:47:53,840 --> 01:47:55,599
Speaker 1: and the best thing you can do from a perspective

1713
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:58,320
Speaker 1: public health. The best thing we could have ever done

1714
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:01,760
Speaker 1: is to keep all our wild life wild, not in

1715
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:05,479
Speaker 1: That's what c WG comes from. And today we are

1716
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 1: faced with an enormous dilemma. No one was talking about CWD.

1717
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 1: Well I had the first review of that. You can

1718
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 1: read it. And once I have at the behest of

1719
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:21,559
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney, you're talking about you predicting. When you read it,

1720
01:48:21,600 --> 01:48:25,479
Speaker 1: you're like, well, this this is ten fifteen years before

1721
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: this thing at polifer Fort, and here are here's someone

1722
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:34,920
Speaker 1: calling to to bear what CD can that I first

1723
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:38,880
Speaker 1: warned about the disease in in my book l Country,

1724
01:48:39,080 --> 01:48:42,400
Speaker 1: page hundred sixty nine. Please read. In those days the

1725
01:48:42,479 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 1: disease was it was not even known as chronic wasting disease.

1726
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 1: It was called some kind of a scrapy. Yeah see,

1727
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:52,639
Speaker 1: and I had done my homework on the German side.

1728
01:48:53,160 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 1: See that is the advantage of having another language at times. Yeah,

1729
01:48:56,320 --> 01:48:58,000
Speaker 1: the Germans had been very much concerned with the t

1730
01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 1: s S. I realized, oh my god, what is coming

1731
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:07,040
Speaker 1: our way? And I warned in that. I was told

1732
01:49:07,120 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 1: later on that a game farm but who loved my

1733
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 1: writing came to that spot. Read burst out into red

1734
01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:18,800
Speaker 1: face and ripped the book apart. Too bad. Yeah, I

1735
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:23,640
Speaker 1: mean TSCs. It's something that TSCs we now very much understand.

1736
01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:28,439
Speaker 1: But but i'm, you know, having but eight years old,

1737
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:33,360
Speaker 1: but we're not ten years old. Whatever. But to think

1738
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:36,760
Speaker 1: that back that far, that these kind of things bore

1739
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:39,880
Speaker 1: the you know, for you to codify that that model

1740
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:44,360
Speaker 1: came from an understanding of game farms, understanding of disease

1741
01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 1: like CWD, and then this is what's driving this is

1742
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:52,519
Speaker 1: incredibly it's remarkable to me. But at the same time,

1743
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:56,120
Speaker 1: it was still futile, you see, because we still have

1744
01:49:56,200 --> 01:49:59,920
Speaker 1: not controlled the the s blod pre onto spreading, the

1745
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:05,400
Speaker 1: spreading and the dangers are so acute to our economy

1746
01:50:05,479 --> 01:50:10,640
Speaker 1: because Norway has already banned all products from straw and

1747
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:15,320
Speaker 1: hay from areas with contaminated with CWD two enter Norway.

1748
01:50:15,439 --> 01:50:17,840
Speaker 1: So that's your a big hint with a telephone pole.

1749
01:50:18,479 --> 01:50:21,280
Speaker 1: I believe you me. That's that's that's going to be

1750
01:50:21,320 --> 01:50:25,120
Speaker 1: a spider world. That's going to be something. Yeah, and

1751
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:28,599
Speaker 1: basically you have to blame now the politicians. They were

1752
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:31,679
Speaker 1: very well informed, but of course game farmers thought, oh

1753
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:34,760
Speaker 1: forget this stupid professor we know better. You know that

1754
01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 1: always happens always, and there's there's you know, CWD funding

1755
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:43,000
Speaker 1: mechanisms in in I know, in appropriation in Congress right

1756
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 1: now that are sitting in committee, they're probably likely will

1757
01:50:45,280 --> 01:50:47,559
Speaker 1: knock it out. And this is just asking for more

1758
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 1: funding to do research well, and that's the wrong thing

1759
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 1: to do. This is the wrong thing to do. We

1760
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 1: don't need any more research right now. We need action.

1761
01:50:56,120 --> 01:51:00,840
Speaker 1: We need implementing policies. And I have written that I'm

1762
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,200
Speaker 1: chief author in fact on a polity a document which

1763
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 1: you produced, which, by the way, your leading scientists acknowledged,

1764
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:13,519
Speaker 1: agreed with, incorporated with us. They realize what we were doing.

1765
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 1: When you write a policy document, you write it in,

1766
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:22,040
Speaker 1: you spread out the understanding that you have and feed

1767
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:24,519
Speaker 1: in the understanding from various places so that you can

1768
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:26,840
Speaker 1: come out with several principles what do you have to

1769
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:29,080
Speaker 1: do to stop the disease. And the first one is

1770
01:51:29,120 --> 01:51:32,799
Speaker 1: that you stop the transport of all animals and parts

1771
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:35,280
Speaker 1: and so on, and that means like like it on

1772
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: the commercial side. Yeah, that's the first step, and that's

1773
01:51:40,120 --> 01:51:43,960
Speaker 1: I think that's something where within the hunting community it's

1774
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:46,920
Speaker 1: accepted that this is something that we should do. The

1775
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:50,160
Speaker 1: hunting community is coming along, that's right, But you had

1776
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:52,759
Speaker 1: you must you know that we have so much knowledge

1777
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:56,040
Speaker 1: and headed for decades that we should have acted then.

1778
01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:01,479
Speaker 1: And I am horrified at the potential consequences of this. Yeah,

1779
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:04,360
Speaker 1: but I'm sorry. I was not able to convince the people,

1780
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:07,200
Speaker 1: and they threatened me in court and threatened my wife

1781
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:09,240
Speaker 1: with death and god knows what else. Well, let's see that.

1782
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:11,559
Speaker 1: I don't want to go over too many of these

1783
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:14,080
Speaker 1: types of things. But you had there was a lot

1784
01:52:14,120 --> 01:52:16,639
Speaker 1: of pushback to the North American model when you first presented, correct,

1785
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:18,800
Speaker 1: and I think it's important to examine that pushback to

1786
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:21,840
Speaker 1: kind of in its place and time. Why it happened, Well,

1787
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:26,200
Speaker 1: it was based on misunderstanding. But the misunderstanding that rose

1788
01:52:26,439 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: was because I spoke of this model of wild like

1789
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:33,120
Speaker 1: being in the public domain. Uh, this was considered to

1790
01:52:33,160 --> 01:52:39,680
Speaker 1: be politically socialism, and they accused me of of that. Well,

1791
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:46,680
Speaker 1: of course, I am a great fan of courageous wildlife

1792
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:51,639
Speaker 1: and and environmental action on private land. In fact, one

1793
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:54,840
Speaker 1: of the great things about North America, your country, is

1794
01:52:55,080 --> 01:52:57,400
Speaker 1: that we do have a large amount of land in

1795
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:02,080
Speaker 1: private hand outside the public domain, because on these lands

1796
01:53:02,400 --> 01:53:05,479
Speaker 1: we have some of the most brilliant examples of what

1797
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:09,080
Speaker 1: to do in order to rectify problems on public land.

1798
01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:13,160
Speaker 1: You see, I am enthusiastic about this. I am a

1799
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 1: great defender of private property precisely because here we can

1800
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:24,479
Speaker 1: have actions that mitigate We can learn so much in

1801
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,000
Speaker 1: the value it creates, A tremendous value stains private I

1802
01:53:28,040 --> 01:53:31,200
Speaker 1: want the opposite. I am enthusiastically in favor of it.

1803
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:33,800
Speaker 1: And at the time when you read, when you read

1804
01:53:33,800 --> 01:53:36,719
Speaker 1: like wildlife as a public trust resource, elimination of markets

1805
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 1: for game, these are things that are capitalist. Probably not

1806
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:46,080
Speaker 1: digging too much well, you see, don't accuse of capitalists.

1807
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 1: Most capitalists have a brain. If I have a chance

1808
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:52,439
Speaker 1: to talk to the capitalists, why we should have no

1809
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:56,280
Speaker 1: markets in game when he sees the consequences of having

1810
01:53:56,479 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: illegal markets, like the wonderful work by Terry Gross, who

1811
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:03,240
Speaker 1: used to be your in the West, your Head Haunt

1812
01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:08,559
Speaker 1: show in wildlife, but with the Wildlife Service in wildlife

1813
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 1: law enforcement, and he was very much involved in getting

1814
01:54:10,920 --> 01:54:15,800
Speaker 1: the Ashland Laboratory up and running. A great man. In

1815
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 1: his retirement, he wrote fantastic books. I mean it, and

1816
01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:23,120
Speaker 1: each chapter dealt with an episode, and there you learn

1817
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 1: just how big an underground of illegal activities you have.

1818
01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:32,000
Speaker 1: No capitalist that I can think who had a brain

1819
01:54:32,400 --> 01:54:38,920
Speaker 1: would disagree. Do you remember any any moments of where

1820
01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:40,960
Speaker 1: you harely had to defend the model that you felt

1821
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 1: were seminal? They were they were cute, really really cute.

1822
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:50,160
Speaker 1: One of the most outracious things that happened was in Texas.

1823
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:54,000
Speaker 1: My friend Fritz Walter, very very dear friend. He was

1824
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 1: a mythologist, the great antelope expert, have retired Texas and

1825
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 1: m and the student put on a very nice seminar

1826
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:05,160
Speaker 1: for him, and they asked me to be the keynote speaker.

1827
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:11,840
Speaker 1: Fritz Walda and I were close friends for decades. That's

1828
01:55:12,440 --> 01:55:15,120
Speaker 1: I don't hear anything anymore. One day, I think it's

1829
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:17,840
Speaker 1: getting close. Note to that. Let's give them a call.

1830
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:21,280
Speaker 1: And I called, and the poor students said, dr guys,

1831
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:25,480
Speaker 1: we were told that if we were divite you all

1832
01:55:25,560 --> 01:55:32,640
Speaker 1: our conference funding would be taken away. Oh boy, Well,

1833
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:37,080
Speaker 1: I called Fritz and sad and he said, look, if

1834
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 1: you don't come, I won't come. So I came and

1835
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:45,840
Speaker 1: I gave one of the most innocent papers I've ever

1836
01:55:45,880 --> 01:55:50,640
Speaker 1: given my lifetime. I explained the reason why the Irish

1837
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:56,560
Speaker 1: elk had these enormous antlers. We were in a uh

1838
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:01,320
Speaker 1: auditorium and the high school, I think it was, And

1839
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:06,760
Speaker 1: that's itself an interesting thing, why Irish evolved these enormous antlus. Yeah,

1840
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:09,840
Speaker 1: and as I was going off the stage, out of

1841
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:12,800
Speaker 1: the curtain stepped a text and colleagues grab hold of

1842
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 1: my hands, says well, we're all with you, but I

1843
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: cannot be seen with you. You're an anti hero. Well

1844
01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:24,879
Speaker 1: today I'm a hero in Texas because I also published

1845
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:31,120
Speaker 1: how to um Grow Trophy antless baby, how it was

1846
01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 1: done in Europe, because I knew that intimately for a

1847
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:37,760
Speaker 1: long time, and some Texas ranchers in the South of

1848
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,880
Speaker 1: Texas read it. I thought it was very sensible, tried

1849
01:56:41,920 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 1: and of course it looks like a child. We should

1850
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:46,000
Speaker 1: we should get into this story. Can't leave this on

1851
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 1: the table because it involves herman Gary, involve the Nazis,

1852
01:56:51,800 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 1: can take us into the take us into this one. Well, yeah,

1853
01:56:56,480 --> 01:56:59,040
Speaker 1: that's right. But first of all, I was telling Will

1854
01:56:59,040 --> 01:57:03,520
Speaker 1: to do the following. Um. These ranches are using the

1855
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:06,600
Speaker 1: thought patterns and so on, not from the past, but

1856
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:10,200
Speaker 1: also from our own and from our own observations. And

1857
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:14,959
Speaker 1: the result is the ranch that I've seen, it's beautiful

1858
01:57:15,040 --> 01:57:20,880
Speaker 1: natural vegetation, magnificent deer growing on it. And one week

1859
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:23,880
Speaker 1: I saw three bucks that would break the world under

1860
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:27,240
Speaker 1: the record. It would enter the record book of Boone

1861
01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 1: Crockett Club. And if you in your lifetime see one,

1862
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:32,200
Speaker 1: you've been kissed by the gods. I saw three in

1863
01:57:32,240 --> 01:57:37,040
Speaker 1: one week. And right now you have all over the

1864
01:57:37,120 --> 01:57:40,480
Speaker 1: United States the score bune crackety club scores of white

1865
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:45,320
Speaker 1: tail endless dropping. Except on those Texas ranches. They're going

1866
01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 1: up and up, and they will go up. I know

1867
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:53,520
Speaker 1: because we are now discussing things that we're introducing other measures.

1868
01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:59,240
Speaker 1: And you have wonderfully healthy populations. Yeah, and this is

1869
01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:03,240
Speaker 1: all because of buck to their ratio. Not quite, not quite,

1870
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:05,320
Speaker 1: it is, it's it's a little bit more than that.

1871
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 1: It is really the first The first thing is that

1872
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:10,200
Speaker 1: you condition the landscape in such a fashion that you

1873
01:58:10,240 --> 01:58:13,120
Speaker 1: have rich, rich food all the time. You must make

1874
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 1: sure you had big, big farms growing good mother screw those.

1875
01:58:18,240 --> 01:58:20,800
Speaker 1: You have to reduce the density, and you have to

1876
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 1: look after the landscape to make it rich and productive.

1877
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:27,600
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two is you eliminate some of

1878
01:58:27,640 --> 01:58:30,480
Speaker 1: the things that are poor performers that you take out.

1879
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:33,120
Speaker 1: And the next thing is that you don't kill your

1880
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:38,520
Speaker 1: big breeding bucks. What the Germans did was and that

1881
01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:43,720
Speaker 1: it became law when they realized that you could. They

1882
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:47,840
Speaker 1: they had a system of class one and class two.

1883
01:58:48,440 --> 01:58:50,760
Speaker 1: The class one and class two were split into A

1884
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:54,720
Speaker 1: and B. Class one A were the trophy stags that

1885
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 1: were breeders. You never touched them. They were off limits.

1886
01:58:59,160 --> 01:59:04,800
Speaker 1: You could only kill one B or under certain circumstances,

1887
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:09,879
Speaker 1: harvest stag was allowed. That's one A. Then you could

1888
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:13,160
Speaker 1: never kill a two A. That's was a tag for

1889
01:59:13,200 --> 01:59:17,280
Speaker 1: the future. You could kill it to be. When I

1890
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:20,600
Speaker 1: was last hunting in Wyoming for Elk, I had the

1891
01:59:20,680 --> 01:59:26,680
Speaker 1: chance to shoot a young bull with enormously long, thin antlers.

1892
01:59:27,600 --> 01:59:31,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't hang such a thing on my wall. I

1893
01:59:31,280 --> 01:59:35,760
Speaker 1: would turn around in shame. That bull had a future

1894
01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:38,680
Speaker 1: he had to live. Of course, it didn't shoot it

1895
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:44,360
Speaker 1: and his progeny as well, but his children others. Yes,

1896
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:47,680
Speaker 1: this was a bowl that had not yet bread. But

1897
01:59:47,760 --> 01:59:51,440
Speaker 1: he was a big, big, magnificent ball. Yeah, but he

1898
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:53,640
Speaker 1: was a satellite bull. He was not even with the

1899
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: writing group. Yeah, he was just entering it. That's not

1900
01:59:56,400 --> 01:59:59,720
Speaker 1: an animal you kill, that's an animal you allowed to

1901
01:59:59,800 --> 02:00:05,280
Speaker 1: live of I killed a bull ten minutes later. Who

1902
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:08,920
Speaker 1: I was so happy to have was an old ball.

1903
02:00:10,240 --> 02:00:13,560
Speaker 1: It was a grass antlet bull. See this means something

1904
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:17,080
Speaker 1: to me. This means almost nothing to most people. To me,

1905
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 1: this was the joy of joys. See. Grass antlet bulls

1906
02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:25,400
Speaker 1: live during the antler growing period on sedges and grasses

1907
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:28,680
Speaker 1: which are very which are which have no toxins in

1908
02:00:28,720 --> 02:00:31,760
Speaker 1: that young and that means that he was living on

1909
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:35,400
Speaker 1: some of the better grasslands created by the forest fires

1910
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:40,400
Speaker 1: that you had. He was hog hog fat, but he

1911
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:44,400
Speaker 1: didn't have a main short as a protein. The antless

1912
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:48,800
Speaker 1: were relatively short, and because there were no toxins in

1913
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:54,120
Speaker 1: that food, they were perfectly symmetrical. And that's the sign

1914
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:56,400
Speaker 1: of a grass antlet bull. I have it on hanging

1915
02:00:56,520 --> 02:00:59,080
Speaker 1: my ball. Now that's what I wanted. I've got it.

1916
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:03,880
Speaker 1: We had to wait for fifteen minutes for the sun

1917
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:06,960
Speaker 1: to rise before I could take the photographs. Was that quick? See?

1918
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:10,600
Speaker 1: I called the ball in. But that's another big story.

1919
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:14,800
Speaker 1: Because the German counts in the nine eighties and the

1920
02:01:14,840 --> 02:01:18,320
Speaker 1: Great Hunters um found themselves in the dilemma. They couldn't

1921
02:01:18,360 --> 02:01:22,680
Speaker 1: hunt the magnificent stags of the Carpathian Mountains or the

1922
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:26,760
Speaker 1: Danube Delta because in the thickets the animal wouldn't visible,

1923
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:29,720
Speaker 1: and you could hunt and puts your foot as much

1924
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:31,960
Speaker 1: as you want to do, you'd never see them. You

1925
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:38,240
Speaker 1: never killed them. But these were noblemen, educated people, which

1926
02:01:38,320 --> 02:01:43,120
Speaker 1: were wonderful authors. Yeah, they began to understand that if

1927
02:01:43,320 --> 02:01:49,120
Speaker 1: I play ball successfully, I can walk in on that

1928
02:01:49,200 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 1: thing or it will run you over, as a matter

1929
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:55,600
Speaker 1: of fact, and that's exactly what happens. Now. These writings

1930
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 1: are marvelous. I internalized them early on when I had

1931
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:01,640
Speaker 1: a chance to try it out an Elk. It worked

1932
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 1: like a charm. It is you have to watch out

1933
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:09,200
Speaker 1: that you realize that you kill the bull in the thicket,

1934
02:02:10,120 --> 02:02:13,080
Speaker 1: you go into the thicket. And the greatst fun of

1935
02:02:13,160 --> 02:02:17,040
Speaker 1: all is if you convince the females that you are

1936
02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 1: a beautiful stranger and they break away from the harem

1937
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:23,080
Speaker 1: and they run towards you, and they had him a

1938
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:27,640
Speaker 1: good hitting bullets behind them. Yes, it's fun. I never

1939
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 1: thought we'd get Elk tips out of this podcast, but

1940
02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:37,840
Speaker 1: very much enjoying that well. I mean, I got so

1941
02:02:37,960 --> 02:02:40,680
Speaker 1: we could do this for gosh, I knew it was

1942
02:02:40,680 --> 02:02:42,800
Speaker 1: going to be like this. I knew I was gonna

1943
02:02:42,840 --> 02:02:47,400
Speaker 1: say nothing and be speechless a lot and one another

1944
02:02:47,440 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 1: five hours with you. Ah, I think we must return

1945
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:53,920
Speaker 1: to the North American amount of for a second. Please

1946
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:57,640
Speaker 1: do because it's hard for me to explain it's importance,

1947
02:02:57,680 --> 02:03:03,040
Speaker 1: and it's not something that is ingrained enough in in

1948
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 1: our hunting public right now. It is not when you

1949
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 1: buy a license, it is not listed as part of

1950
02:03:09,280 --> 02:03:13,040
Speaker 1: your is part of the game laws. It's not it's

1951
02:03:13,040 --> 02:03:15,360
Speaker 1: not right there. I mean, people that listen to this

1952
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:17,880
Speaker 1: podcast will will know a lot about it. Certainly, there's

1953
02:03:17,880 --> 02:03:20,880
Speaker 1: a lot of resources and you you're working on something

1954
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:24,360
Speaker 1: now with Shane uh to learn more about it. But

1955
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:28,440
Speaker 1: why do you feel because it's it's such an astounding,

1956
02:03:28,720 --> 02:03:32,680
Speaker 1: long lasting model, even before you codified it, why do

1957
02:03:32,720 --> 02:03:34,440
Speaker 1: you believe that it's not You know, you don't get

1958
02:03:34,440 --> 02:03:36,680
Speaker 1: your game regulations book in Montana, Wyoming. Why is it

1959
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:41,600
Speaker 1: not on the front back cover. Actually that's a very

1960
02:03:41,640 --> 02:03:45,560
Speaker 1: good question, and I count answer that. Uh. I do

1961
02:03:45,720 --> 02:03:51,760
Speaker 1: know that it is being um written up occasionally, it

1962
02:03:51,920 --> 02:03:58,800
Speaker 1: is being rewritten incorrectly by the way to fulfill secret

1963
02:03:58,840 --> 02:04:02,400
Speaker 1: wishes in pot But it is something that I feel

1964
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:06,000
Speaker 1: school children should know about because it returned life and

1965
02:04:06,040 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 1: biodiversity and beauty to your land. And that is what

1966
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:15,120
Speaker 1: wildlife management should be all about. It's a hands on

1967
02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:20,880
Speaker 1: way of generating more diversity rather than less diversity. If

1968
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:24,440
Speaker 1: you let the wolves go through the landscape, you will

1969
02:04:24,480 --> 02:04:28,839
Speaker 1: suffer tremendous loss in biodiversity. If you're on the underhand,

1970
02:04:28,880 --> 02:04:32,720
Speaker 1: play God, and you have to. That is your responsibility

1971
02:04:32,760 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 1: today in landscape because there are no natural landscapes in

1972
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:39,640
Speaker 1: North America. There haven't been for twelve thousand years. Your

1973
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:42,920
Speaker 1: landscapes are artifacts of human activity. The way you put

1974
02:04:42,920 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 1: that is striking that these that you're looking at an

1975
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:48,120
Speaker 1: artifact that has been manipulated, will continue to be manipulated, right,

1976
02:04:48,400 --> 02:04:52,280
Speaker 1: And it was manipulated very very cleverly up to the

1977
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:58,400
Speaker 1: time of the discovery of North America by the Europeans. See,

1978
02:04:58,560 --> 02:05:01,800
Speaker 1: because when they entered they never realized that they were

1979
02:05:01,920 --> 02:05:06,440
Speaker 1: entering a highly, highly civilized landscape, by which I mean

1980
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:12,560
Speaker 1: that the landscapes had been manipulated in favor of human

1981
02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:17,080
Speaker 1: wants and needs and conditions. Yeah, they were artifacts that

1982
02:05:17,120 --> 02:05:20,800
Speaker 1: served humanity, and those people that entered had not a

1983
02:05:20,840 --> 02:05:24,840
Speaker 1: clue about it. Now we do. What a lesson to

1984
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:27,320
Speaker 1: learn from that model and from you is that you

1985
02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:30,920
Speaker 1: must understand your place and time, like you must understand

1986
02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:33,960
Speaker 1: when you look at the landscape, how it got to

1987
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:35,240
Speaker 1: be that one. That's right. There's no way you can

1988
02:05:35,320 --> 02:05:37,560
Speaker 1: understand being in it, being a part of it if

1989
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:39,440
Speaker 1: you don't understand how it got to be. But let's go.

1990
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 1: If you follow our unfortunately now misguided environmentalism, yeah, you're

1991
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:50,680
Speaker 1: going to create forest fire conditions like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,

1992
02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:54,480
Speaker 1: a landscape of natural biodiversity which has the large mammals

1993
02:05:54,520 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 1: in it, yet is an open landscape in which the

1994
02:05:57,400 --> 02:06:02,360
Speaker 1: annual production of plant material is largely consumed when the

1995
02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:05,960
Speaker 1: forest fires occurred. They're small, they're cool. You don't have

1996
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 1: these enormous conflagrations that you now have. Yeah. You see,

1997
02:06:09,520 --> 02:06:12,400
Speaker 1: when human beings came to this continent about fifteen to

1998
02:06:12,480 --> 02:06:16,120
Speaker 1: seventy thousand years ago, they came into a continent that

1999
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:22,240
Speaker 1: was hit hard by about sixty genera of large mammals,

2000
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:27,000
Speaker 1: and they hit the continents so hard that the vegetation

2001
02:06:27,200 --> 02:06:30,320
Speaker 1: most of the continent was so low that you evolved

2002
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:33,800
Speaker 1: here like the progerinan antelope, a species of animal that

2003
02:06:33,920 --> 02:06:38,840
Speaker 1: is the highest speed runner in the world. You can

2004
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 1: only evolve high speed running in wide open landscapes. Yeah.

2005
02:06:44,520 --> 02:06:47,880
Speaker 1: The Texas deer that I talked about, the fan tails,

2006
02:06:48,280 --> 02:06:51,280
Speaker 1: Texas white tail, and the Texas white tail is a

2007
02:06:51,320 --> 02:06:57,080
Speaker 1: deal that evolved in open landscapes. And its orbits, yeah,

2008
02:06:57,160 --> 02:06:59,560
Speaker 1: are shaped in such a fashion that they would have

2009
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:02,840
Speaker 1: been able to click up very simply because in those

2010
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:11,320
Speaker 1: days you had enormous predatory and carrion feeding birds around. Yeah,

2011
02:07:12,920 --> 02:07:16,000
Speaker 1: the same thing with golden eagles. Golden eagles will kill

2012
02:07:16,040 --> 02:07:18,880
Speaker 1: deer and pronger and antelope of course. Oh yeah, absolutely.

2013
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:22,360
Speaker 1: And so this was an open country species which had eyes.

2014
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:25,040
Speaker 1: Your Texas white tail has eyes as big as a

2015
02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:27,360
Speaker 1: big horn ship. Yeah, and it was able to so

2016
02:07:27,400 --> 02:07:30,120
Speaker 1: you had a wide open landscape. When people came and

2017
02:07:30,200 --> 02:07:34,720
Speaker 1: were confronted by these mega cardbivo county boards, these huge bears,

2018
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:37,960
Speaker 1: lions and so on, they began burning the landscape where

2019
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:40,800
Speaker 1: they could burn it, and then they settled there because

2020
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:43,960
Speaker 1: on burnt landscape they were safe from the predators and

2021
02:07:44,000 --> 02:07:47,800
Speaker 1: by the way, they lived a miserable life for a thousand,

2022
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:51,200
Speaker 1: five hundred years. After that, they developed a miracle weapon

2023
02:07:51,680 --> 02:07:56,960
Speaker 1: which was the um well, which was a sharp cutting

2024
02:07:56,960 --> 02:08:02,839
Speaker 1: blade mounted on a detached will spear. You put poison

2025
02:08:02,920 --> 02:08:05,480
Speaker 1: on it, very severe poison. They were killing mammoth on

2026
02:08:05,520 --> 02:08:08,880
Speaker 1: the spot several at the time. They were very, very

2027
02:08:08,960 --> 02:08:12,520
Speaker 1: very similar. That's the Clovis culture. Also, the Hastat culture

2028
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:16,760
Speaker 1: is another one that they've produced unbelievable cutting tools. The

2029
02:08:16,840 --> 02:08:21,760
Speaker 1: hasket cultures thin long knives that were obviously drenched in

2030
02:08:22,160 --> 02:08:27,000
Speaker 1: um poison most likely a knitum, and that were used.

2031
02:08:27,520 --> 02:08:29,640
Speaker 1: Later on, you had the Foalsome culture, which was also

2032
02:08:30,680 --> 02:08:33,080
Speaker 1: something very similar to the Clovis and the fish Tale

2033
02:08:33,120 --> 02:08:35,560
Speaker 1: culture in South America. And by the way, with these

2034
02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:38,640
Speaker 1: miracle weapons, they killed out the large founder within five

2035
02:08:39,040 --> 02:08:43,160
Speaker 1: years completely. But you know what happens now, the vegetation

2036
02:08:43,200 --> 02:08:49,000
Speaker 1: grows and you have conflagrations, you have huge fires, you

2037
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:53,360
Speaker 1: have to counterbird, you have to learn how to handle

2038
02:08:53,480 --> 02:08:56,600
Speaker 1: vegetation so it's safe for you. And the North American

2039
02:08:56,640 --> 02:09:01,360
Speaker 1: Indians and the South American Indians became great experts, and

2040
02:09:01,400 --> 02:09:05,880
Speaker 1: so they burned in order to make the vegetation subservient

2041
02:09:06,440 --> 02:09:10,200
Speaker 1: to human needs. They became some of the greatest horticulturists

2042
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:14,440
Speaker 1: and great agriculturists. These are bright, bright people that were

2043
02:09:14,440 --> 02:09:18,520
Speaker 1: doing this. Yet, and by the time Columbus came to

2044
02:09:18,560 --> 02:09:23,200
Speaker 1: North America, you had a continent completely under human control.

2045
02:09:24,080 --> 02:09:29,240
Speaker 1: It was civilized, but it was also overpopulated, and wildlife

2046
02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:34,960
Speaker 1: was very, very very scarce. The reason you had so

2047
02:09:35,040 --> 02:09:37,800
Speaker 1: much more wildlife was, of course the Great Tragedy because

2048
02:09:37,880 --> 02:09:44,400
Speaker 1: already in fifteen nine with the Disorder Expedition UH, they

2049
02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 1: brought diseases and they began to spread diseases instantly, and

2050
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:52,360
Speaker 1: native people became aware of it very very quickly, and

2051
02:09:52,400 --> 02:09:55,280
Speaker 1: they fled just to get away from any contact with

2052
02:09:55,320 --> 02:09:58,680
Speaker 1: these Europeans. Imagine driving five pigs in front of you.

2053
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:02,920
Speaker 1: That's what the sort was doing. Because the preceding expedition

2054
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:08,880
Speaker 1: and um T seven by Kabezza Debaka, who wasn't second

2055
02:10:08,920 --> 02:10:11,879
Speaker 1: in command, and he reported back one of the problems

2056
02:10:12,320 --> 02:10:16,000
Speaker 1: they had was getting enough food. In the first expedition

2057
02:10:16,000 --> 02:10:19,840
Speaker 1: here people were dying of hunger. So the second expedition

2058
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:22,600
Speaker 1: thought they were going to fulfill that. They had five

2059
02:10:22,680 --> 02:10:25,520
Speaker 1: hundred pigs moving along with them at any one time,

2060
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:28,640
Speaker 1: and they spread that as zasus like you wouldn't believe it.

2061
02:10:30,480 --> 02:10:34,440
Speaker 1: The minimum is that fifty six million American natives died.

2062
02:10:35,160 --> 02:10:39,360
Speaker 1: The more likely figures at hundred twenty billion died and

2063
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:47,680
Speaker 1: wildlife exploded as a consequence. Buffalo, the real beginning is

2064
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 1: about six and their maximum extent they reached about sevent

2065
02:10:55,040 --> 02:10:59,240
Speaker 1: certainly in Pennsylvania. That is then they began to shrink already.

2066
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:03,320
Speaker 1: But maximux this is the image of the landscape full

2067
02:11:03,360 --> 02:11:07,680
Speaker 1: of wildlife, full of buffalo, full of passenger pigeons, is

2068
02:11:07,720 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 1: a consequence of the death of North American natives by

2069
02:11:12,520 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 1: the millions. So, for instance, the passenger pigeon you had.

2070
02:11:17,120 --> 02:11:21,960
Speaker 1: The best explanation is that once the nut gardens, the

2071
02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:25,640
Speaker 1: fruit trees and everything else. Your eastern hardwood forest is

2072
02:11:25,680 --> 02:11:30,920
Speaker 1: a nut garden. Yeah, once they became available, the pigeons

2073
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:35,560
Speaker 1: got into it. And your genetics tells us that this

2074
02:11:35,640 --> 02:11:41,240
Speaker 1: was a very rapid expansion, and they expanded into the billions.

2075
02:11:41,800 --> 02:11:45,040
Speaker 1: And so basically, what was the biomass that once walked

2076
02:11:45,080 --> 02:11:50,800
Speaker 1: as native people on Earth became passenger pigeons in the sky. Horrible. Yes,

2077
02:11:51,280 --> 02:11:55,120
Speaker 1: the passenger pigeons is one of those species that everybody understand.

2078
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:58,240
Speaker 1: You see the passenger pigeon was a rare bird at

2079
02:11:58,240 --> 02:12:01,000
Speaker 1: the time Columbus landed in North America. It's a rare

2080
02:12:01,080 --> 02:12:06,000
Speaker 1: bird in the food archeological sites. Yeah, very very rare bird.

2081
02:12:07,120 --> 02:12:08,920
Speaker 1: If it had been as common as that, it would

2082
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 1: have been everyone. No, it wasn't. But understanding these ebbs

2083
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:16,400
Speaker 1: and flows, understanding that's world. That's right. And it gets

2084
02:12:16,440 --> 02:12:19,520
Speaker 1: even better because one of the papers thinks that the

2085
02:12:19,560 --> 02:12:24,080
Speaker 1: release on the vegetation that happened was so massive that

2086
02:12:24,280 --> 02:12:27,280
Speaker 1: because now but the natives had suppressed it was so

2087
02:12:27,400 --> 02:12:30,960
Speaker 1: massive that it sucked out a lot of C. O

2088
02:12:31,040 --> 02:12:33,920
Speaker 1: two out of the air and caused the little ice age.

2089
02:12:34,840 --> 02:12:38,680
Speaker 1: That's not my theory. That's one theory I cannot defend

2090
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:41,400
Speaker 1: or explained. But this is one theory out there. Yeah,

2091
02:12:41,480 --> 02:12:44,320
Speaker 1: it could very well be true. They were trying to

2092
02:12:44,360 --> 02:12:46,720
Speaker 1: make the point that this was, in fact, the first

2093
02:12:47,320 --> 02:12:53,200
Speaker 1: example of man caused climatic change. Nothing to fool around

2094
02:12:53,200 --> 02:13:01,200
Speaker 1: with the little ice Age. The understatement, i'd say, of

2095
02:13:01,240 --> 02:13:04,920
Speaker 1: the century, but longer than that's right. But you see,

2096
02:13:04,960 --> 02:13:12,320
Speaker 1: you should read because it's so funny. The Alvaris Noonba

2097
02:13:12,360 --> 02:13:17,120
Speaker 1: Devaka was a nobleman and a Spanish officer, very successful,

2098
02:13:17,160 --> 02:13:21,520
Speaker 1: and he was a falconer, and they emperor that he

2099
02:13:21,560 --> 02:13:26,760
Speaker 1: reported to Charles the Fifth was a passionate falconer and

2100
02:13:26,920 --> 02:13:30,360
Speaker 1: a hunter, and so of course the Emperor was interested

2101
02:13:30,440 --> 02:13:34,680
Speaker 1: what he saw. Naturally. Now Kaba Devaka begins in Florida,

2102
02:13:34,840 --> 02:13:38,040
Speaker 1: goes all the way to eight years to Mexico. He

2103
02:13:38,120 --> 02:13:41,760
Speaker 1: doesn't see a single alligator. He doesn't see a single

2104
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:44,640
Speaker 1: coyote or wolf. He doesn't see any grizzly bear. He

2105
02:13:44,640 --> 02:13:47,520
Speaker 1: knows about black bear and puma, he doesn't see any.

2106
02:13:47,880 --> 02:13:52,360
Speaker 1: They sees no elk he sees no hevelina. When the

2107
02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:56,480
Speaker 1: natives in Florida, he describes when hunting deer, they took

2108
02:13:56,520 --> 02:13:59,880
Speaker 1: along water and wood because where there was water and wood,

2109
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:03,360
Speaker 1: there were no dear. Can you imagine, as a hunter

2110
02:14:03,360 --> 02:14:09,000
Speaker 1: of what that means, how rare dear were yet, Cabezza

2111
02:14:09,040 --> 02:14:12,080
Speaker 1: Devaka says there are three kinds of deer in Florida,

2112
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:16,160
Speaker 1: and his hundred percent correct. They still are there to

2113
02:14:16,240 --> 02:14:18,560
Speaker 1: be different deer. Quite hells you, that's how keen an

2114
02:14:18,560 --> 02:14:21,400
Speaker 1: observer he was, You say so. He now describes, for

2115
02:14:21,440 --> 02:14:24,360
Speaker 1: the benett of the king all the hunt herble birds

2116
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:28,240
Speaker 1: like the blue heron, the egrets and so ons of forth.

2117
02:14:28,800 --> 02:14:34,680
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mention the eagle ones. With a huge

2118
02:14:34,680 --> 02:14:40,160
Speaker 1: population of people on the land, every eagle has its

2119
02:14:40,160 --> 02:14:44,240
Speaker 1: feathers torn out. He doesn't see a single eagle, he

2120
02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:50,280
Speaker 1: doesn't see a single vulture. Well, if you have deer

2121
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:55,000
Speaker 1: in such small populations and only dear nothing else. When

2122
02:14:55,040 --> 02:14:58,920
Speaker 1: you don't find a single turkey in Florida, it's a disorder.

2123
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 1: Expedition that meets the first turkey in Louisiana. That was

2124
02:15:04,160 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 1: the continent you looked at. It was very very well

2125
02:15:07,520 --> 02:15:12,400
Speaker 1: used by people, and that matches the archeological data. Okay,

2126
02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:16,600
Speaker 1: and these vast changes over changes that right, disease that

2127
02:15:16,640 --> 02:15:20,520
Speaker 1: then sweeps over this. That's right, that's right. Change For

2128
02:15:20,600 --> 02:15:25,720
Speaker 1: twelve thousand years, people change the continent until the Europeans

2129
02:15:25,800 --> 02:15:29,480
Speaker 1: came and then in rapid fire fashion, you whiplashed the

2130
02:15:29,480 --> 02:15:35,720
Speaker 1: whole continent. There is no natural ecosystem anywhere left in

2131
02:15:35,760 --> 02:15:41,560
Speaker 1: North America because of that. Sobering to wrap up on

2132
02:15:41,600 --> 02:15:46,080
Speaker 1: the on the North American model doesn't need to change

2133
02:15:48,240 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 1: well for the next years. You asked a good question. Um,

2134
02:15:54,320 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 1: I think what you've been doing in the past is

2135
02:15:56,360 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 1: good and it would continue as long as you accept

2136
02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:07,840
Speaker 1: socially that wildlife can be in the service of human beings,

2137
02:16:07,840 --> 02:16:12,320
Speaker 1: that it can be consumed, that it is a product

2138
02:16:12,400 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 1: and a harvest of the land. As long as you

2139
02:16:15,000 --> 02:16:18,440
Speaker 1: have that, and as long as you think that it's

2140
02:16:18,560 --> 02:16:25,880
Speaker 1: right and proper to treat everybody in our democracy as

2141
02:16:25,920 --> 02:16:30,400
Speaker 1: an equal, so that every citizen who is no longer

2142
02:16:30,400 --> 02:16:35,720
Speaker 1: not a criminal, et ceter can get wildlife for their

2143
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:40,120
Speaker 1: own use. It will remain entertain sustainable use. And as

2144
02:16:40,160 --> 02:16:45,840
Speaker 1: long as you have wildlife, your Second Amendment will stay.

2145
02:16:45,879 --> 02:16:49,039
Speaker 1: But if you lose your wildlife, it isn't worth the

2146
02:16:49,040 --> 02:16:55,280
Speaker 1: paper thriaten on well, trying to gather the words to

2147
02:16:55,320 --> 02:16:59,680
Speaker 1: summarize our time here. I feel, um, I feel like

2148
02:16:59,680 --> 02:17:03,240
Speaker 1: I want to come back number one or I'm coming

2149
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:05,560
Speaker 1: to you. Yes, you can, we should, I should. Do

2150
02:17:05,600 --> 02:17:08,200
Speaker 1: you realize that the Germans have sent the TV crews

2151
02:17:08,280 --> 02:17:10,560
Speaker 1: to film me, Yeah, because I've taken such a strong

2152
02:17:10,640 --> 02:17:15,160
Speaker 1: stands with the wolf issue and I'm gonna yeah, I'm

2153
02:17:15,160 --> 02:17:19,120
Speaker 1: coming to you and we're gonna hunt. I want to

2154
02:17:19,160 --> 02:17:22,120
Speaker 1: thank you for a life that was dedicated to to

2155
02:17:22,240 --> 02:17:27,200
Speaker 1: these ideas, to pursuing them, to articulating them, and for

2156
02:17:27,280 --> 02:17:29,200
Speaker 1: coming here and doing both of those things, because I

2157
02:17:29,200 --> 02:17:33,160
Speaker 1: think this is an incredibly important conversation. I think your

2158
02:17:33,200 --> 02:17:38,200
Speaker 1: ideas are generalation, not only important for for your generation,

2159
02:17:38,240 --> 02:17:42,400
Speaker 1: but for every single one that comes after it. So, UM,

2160
02:17:42,480 --> 02:17:44,200
Speaker 1: I don't think thank you quite enough, but that's all

2161
02:17:44,240 --> 02:17:46,680
Speaker 1: I have for right now. But thank you and thank

2162
02:17:46,680 --> 02:17:49,760
Speaker 1: you for this opportunity. I loved it. Thank you, thank you.

2163
02:17:51,360 --> 02:17:54,440
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all Episode ninety six in the books.

2164
02:17:54,440 --> 02:18:00,840
Speaker 1: Thank you too, Jim, Colonel Tom, and Valerious for Grace

2165
02:18:00,879 --> 02:18:02,760
Speaker 1: and us with your President the podcast. Those are three

2166
02:18:02,800 --> 02:18:05,760
Speaker 1: gentlemen I never thought i'd get to sit down with

2167
02:18:06,080 --> 02:18:09,720
Speaker 1: and uh put those in a time capsule for myself

2168
02:18:09,760 --> 02:18:11,120
Speaker 1: and hopefully for you to go back and listen to

2169
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:13,600
Speaker 1: if you ever need a little inspiration, well what you

2170
02:18:13,680 --> 02:18:18,240
Speaker 1: might want to do with your career, with your life outdoors.

2171
02:18:19,240 --> 02:18:23,480
Speaker 1: So thank you for again sticking through all four volumes

2172
02:18:23,640 --> 02:18:26,720
Speaker 1: of th HD's best of We're gonna get back to

2173
02:18:26,760 --> 02:18:30,080
Speaker 1: the regular show. Phil excited about that. I'm excited to

2174
02:18:30,080 --> 02:18:32,320
Speaker 1: see what you have planned. Yeah, you don't even know yet,

2175
02:18:32,320 --> 02:18:35,040
Speaker 1: do you know? I've been Um. I had a whole

2176
02:18:35,040 --> 02:18:38,200
Speaker 1: word document full of guest ideas and topic ideas and

2177
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:42,280
Speaker 1: segment ideas and all these crazy things for you know

2178
02:18:42,400 --> 02:18:45,760
Speaker 1: this this we joke that we were. We were just

2179
02:18:45,840 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 1: the substitute teacher putting the movie on. But while while

2180
02:18:50,040 --> 02:18:51,520
Speaker 1: we were taking a bit of a break from our

2181
02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 1: normal show, we're getting down to work. Want to bring

2182
02:18:56,280 --> 02:19:00,560
Speaker 1: you the best podcast possibly can in you. So in

2183
02:19:00,600 --> 02:19:03,320
Speaker 1: the meantime, hit us up on iTunes wherever you listen,

2184
02:19:03,360 --> 02:19:05,240
Speaker 1: give us a five star review and a good written

2185
02:19:05,280 --> 02:19:08,800
Speaker 1: review that really helps the show. Um, and do anything

2186
02:19:08,879 --> 02:19:11,240
Speaker 1: else you can to let people know about what we

2187
02:19:11,320 --> 02:19:14,800
Speaker 1: do here at THHD. In the meantime, we'll be working

2188
02:19:14,800 --> 02:19:17,400
Speaker 1: our asses off to make it better for you, make

2189
02:19:17,480 --> 02:19:22,120
Speaker 1: it entertaining, make it informational. So we'll see you in

2190
02:19:22,160 --> 02:19:29,440
Speaker 1: the brand new year next week. By because I can't

2191
02:19:29,480 --> 02:19:38,039
Speaker 1: go a week without doing run oh without run out

2192
02:19:39,000 --> 02:20:00,880
Speaker 1: right drinking in don't sit in at the boss would

2193
02:20:00,879 --> 02:20:04,800
Speaker 1: stop the growing roots, feeling lagging all on our barras

2194
02:20:04,840 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 1: shoes all tell me what is it that I shoes