WEBVTT - Thad Layton on Taking Arnold Palmer Design Company into the Future 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.960 And when I find my. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.959 Ball in a brid egg Frida egg, the dread Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.640 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, bride egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:14.400 to run off the golf course. 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:38.360 And welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:43.280 Today's episode is with Thad Layton. Fad is the senior 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:48.640 golf course architect and vice president at Arnold Palmer Design Company, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.880 so the company that conducts all of the design work 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.640 under the Arnold Palmer umbrella. Sad I've known for a 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.520 number of years, and I think he's been doing some 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.080 pretty interesting stuff, you know, given the reputation of Arnold 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.240 Palmer Design, and that's why I was really excited to 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.760 talk to him. Obviously, a wildly different background than the 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.840 majority of the architects that we have on this podcast, 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.000 you know, one with a lot of different experiences than 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.560 you know, going to work for Pete Dye or going 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.760 to work for Coren Crunshaw, whatever it may be. You know, 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.639 he was building golf courses in far flung locations across 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.839 the world, and he gets into stories from one of those, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.920 which was quite the story. So I'm really excited to 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:39.120 talk about a golf design and kind of thads unique 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.720 experiences on this podcast. You know, one quick thing I 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.920 did want to talk about. I wanted to talk about 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.720 the Pebble Beach pro am and just something I found 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.160 ridiculous and I'm hoping eventually changes in America. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:53.560 The play. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:55.920 I don't know if some of you may not have 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.840 seen it, but on Saturday, it was windy, it was rainy, 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.760 it was it was a rough weather day on the 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:07.280 Monterey Peninsula, and at NPCC, the wind created a situation 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.519 along with the speed of the greens, that the ball 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.080 was not staying when marked, and you know, it made 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.400 it an unplayable condition and they ended up pulling everybody 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.680 off the golf course, all three golf courses so MPCC, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.600 Pebble Beach, and Spyglass. So while the problem was at 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.160 NPCC they pulled everybody off the golf course, they did 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.359 they halted play for the rest of the afternoon, and 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.680 this led to a Monday finish of an event that 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.720 should finish on Sunday. Obviously, that's big for the business 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.560 of golf. Why these companies sponsor these events. One of 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.080 the big reasons is for that weekend, valuable weekend airtime 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.440 and Saturday that got basically none of it because of 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.120 this incident. So obviously it was windy, it was it 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.160 was tough weather, but not anything that we haven't seen 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.160 in Scotland and Ireland. And it gets to the underlying 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.840 issue in in American golf is our fascination with fast greens. 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:04.359 Now. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.200 I think one of the things is people think fast 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:12.280 and smooth, like those are two separate aspects of greens. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.320 And America's gone way too far with the speed of 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.440 the greens. They have gotten way too fast. You know, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.919 you see clubs across the country softening greens, softening greens 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.520 that have been one way for one hundred years to 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.079 accommodate the increased green speeds. And this is just silly. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.040 You want to talk about things that make the cost 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.480 of the game higher and unsustainable. It's doing work to 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.720 soften greens because we want to have faster greens. You know, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.440 everybody talks about firm and fast. I talk about firm 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.160 and fast, and I think that like what we miss 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.320 is that maybe what we should talk more about is 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:56.120 firm and smooth and in the aspirational greens in golf 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.640 are the ones that are really firm and really smooth, 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:01.680 not necessarily fast. 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:02.440 Uh. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.440 I think band and Dunes pulls us off really well. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.560 The greens out there are really accommodating because they are slow. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.720 You know, they they deal with heavy wind all the 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.520 time and they a lot of those places, those spots 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.080 on those greens would become unputtable if the speed of 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.600 the greens was really high. So what we saw at 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.960 MPCC and really derailed the tournament. It was extremely playable 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.719 in the afternoon at Pebble Beach on Saturday, but it 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.280 was unplayable because of the fascination with fast greens. And 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.960 this is you know, obviously the tour is one of 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.840 the places that is I would say they are one 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.440 of the leading proponents of this. The greens are fast 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.080 week and week out, and they're expected to be fast, 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.160 and in this case there were two fast for the conditions. 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.160 So slow down greens, listen, that's going to save us time. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.559 It's going to lead to faster rounds. Fast greens slow 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.760 down pace of play, They cost more to maintain, and 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.800 overall they're just unnet necesario it's an ego thing. So 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.240 let's slow the greens down and we won't have incidents 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.360 like at MPCC. We'll be playing golf in more weather 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.640 and it will be a better television product. Hence why 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.760 people love the Open Championship when the weather gets wild, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.640 because these guys struggle, they have to grind and they 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.120 have to play through it, and there aren't greens for 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.359 the most part outside of what was it when Brooks 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.120 was on the green and it blew. Outside of that, 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.840 you know, for the most part, the Open Championship doesn't 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.560 have these delays because they keep the greens a much 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.960 more reasonable pace. Those are perfect examples of greens that 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.520 are firm but smooth. All right, after that long winded intro, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.400 now too bad? 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:42.640 Late? 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:46.920 All right? 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.040 That I gotta ask, and I should ask this more often, 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.000 but I don't. When and what made you want to 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:56.160 be a golf architect? 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.599 Like it all started when I was around twelve or 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.640 thirteen and I got hooked on the game. I'm originally 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.919 from Gulfport, Mississippi. Not a whole lot of golf courses 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.120 down there, but I did get to play at IMMUNI 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.279 called Trademark and it was a golf course. It wasn't 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.279 very elaborate. There were two bunkers in the entire course. 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:16.719 There was a bunker on the ninth green and one 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.119 on the eighteenth. So I was always redesigning this golf course. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.039 In my mind. I was just completely smitten with the game, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.080 watching the two events on the weekend and noticed a 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.080 big discrepancy between the course I was playing and the 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.279 ones I was watching the pros play on the weekends. 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.200 So you know, I just had this inclination. My mind 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.279 was running wild of everything we could do with this 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.000 golf course. But I loved the game. And it wasn't 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.279 too long after that that I was turned onto a 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.400 book called The Anatomy of a Golf Course. I'm sure 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:53.840 you're familiar with that, and I just dove headfirst into 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.800 that book, absorbed it like a sponge, and that pretty 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.240 much set the trajectory for me wanting to become a 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:05.760 golf course architect. And I was forty seven now, just 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:10.520 turned forty seven January first, and so that's been thirty 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.080 four years now I've been on this path and very 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.560 very fortunate. I know there's a lot of people that 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.400 kind of want to become golf course architects, and I 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.000 think there are a lot of people out out there 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.080 that would have the skill to do that as well. 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.320 But again, I just feel really, really blessed to be 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.280 able to do what I do for a living. 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.840 So you're one of the rare people that, like, as 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.400 a teenager, if I asked you what you wanted to be, 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:37.600 you would have been like, I want to be a 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.200 golf architect, and you became a golf architect. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.480 Yeah. I've talked with Jay Blasi about that, and I 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.640 think he's probably the only other person that maybe from 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.800 a really early age kind of do what they wanted 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.960 to do. So I feel it's probably a rarity. I 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.880 certainly didn't stumble into it in college or after college. 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.160 It was something that I really wanted to do. And 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.360 you know, it wasn't all green lights either. I mean, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.000 everybody that I would talk to about becoming a golf 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.520 course architect, whether they were in the business or were 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.240 at the fringes, discouraged me from doing that talking, you know, 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.520 told me how competitive it was to not only get 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.200 in the business, but stay in the business. So fortunately 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.480 I didn't listen to them, and I was able to 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.560 continue to kind of follow that dream and and here 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.080 I am today, still doing it. 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.640 That's one of the nice things if you attack it 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.360 from a young age is that when you're young, you 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.880 have a certain level of being naive, you know, and 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.720 and unaware of how difficult things can be. I you know, 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.000 I think about this a lot. Is like if I 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.600 knew everything I knew about golf media now, I would 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.439 I probably wouldn't make it, you know, doing this, This 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.200 wouldn't have worked out because I would have been just 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.600 too aware of all the things that could go wrong. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:04.160 In your career. 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.200 What would you say in terms of breaking into this 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.840 industry that's really hard to break into really, you know, 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.640 as you alluded to, a lot of people said, you know, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.120 don't go into this as a business. What was the 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.880 most challenging part of establishing yourself in the design world. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.360 The toughest part was just that first entry, right. I 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.560 mean for me, I was able to get into I 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.040 was living in Gulfward at the time. There was an 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.040 Arnold Palmer golf course that was being built about forty 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.080 five minutes from where I lived, and I was able 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.200 to get a job on the construction crew. So I 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.600 think that is you know that was the pathway for me. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.360 Without that, I don't know if I would be working 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.319 for Palmer, maybe I might be working for someone else. 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.520 But that was my entry into the golf course industry. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.920 Of you know, we get a lot of them in 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.400 from a lot of people that want to get into 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.760 the business. Still to this day, and you know, I 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.000 try to write everybody back and try to counsel them 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.360 on how to best get into the business. I think 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.280 today the best path is construction, but a lot of 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:18.720 people don't want to hear that. What they want to 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.200 go straight into an office. But the business has changed 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.960 a lot. But even when I started getting going straight 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.600 into an office was it was unlikely. The odds are 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.719 stacked against you. So when people reach out to us, 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.560 I try to encourage them to get a job or 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.000 a golf course contractor. And that's how you meet architects. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.800 That's how you learn how to build a golf course 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.680 from the ground up, and that's how eventually you become 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.760 a good architect. I mean, I think the best architects 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:52.040 in the business have some type of construction background. I'm 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:53.760 not saying I'm one of those guys. I'm not saying 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.000 I'm one of the best in the business. But the 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.800 guys that I admire in this industry, a lot of 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:05.559 the as you interview periodically, they started out. A lot 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.360 of a lot of them have a construction background. I 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:14.240 know Bill and Tom have backgrounds with Pete Dye and 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.839 how he considered himself a golf course builder first and foremost. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.240 So I think that would be the best way to 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.720 get into the business and learn the most and stay 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:26.720 in the business. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.800 I feel like a common thread among the people that 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.680 I interview in this industry is most of them did 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.040 things and made sacrifices or went out of their way 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:43.040 to make themselves indispensable in order, like, you know, not 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.319 unable to not hire that person. You know, they they 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.719 went above and beyond. And I think that's the thing 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:54.160 with like a with a highly competitive industry, you have 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.480 to do things that other people aren't willing to do 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.960 in order to stand out and and really set yourself up. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:06.720 Part you've had to give it. Arnold Palmer designed, you know, 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.640 international scope. You know you've had to been all over 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.640 the world. What are the few what's the craziest place, Like, 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:15.679 what's the place when you think I can't believe I 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:16.480 was there? 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.520 For x amount of my life. What what's the place 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:26.880 that you think of about Kazakhstan. Tell me about building 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.000 a golf course in Kazakhs. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:36.000 Well, it's not the Warat's version of Kazakhstan, but that 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.400 was that was my first opportunity. I've worked for Arnold 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.160 Palmer Design for three or four years full time as 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:47.160 a project coordinator and this project came up and they 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:48.960 knew I wanted to be an architect. I was on 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.640 track to do that, and the opportunity came up for 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.880 this course in kazaks How you would call it opportunity, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:54.760 you know whatever. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.880 There's step a different levels of opportunity. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:05.960 Yeah, it wasn't Carmel, but I jumped at the opportunity. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.160 I figured this would be a great opportunity kind of 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:14.520 make my bones, and they gave me the lead architect 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.760 job there on. It's called jel Au and it was 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.360 a project for a big mining conglomerate in Kazakhstean that 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.080 was doing this golf course is kind of a favor 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.959 to the president to keep you know, their mining rights 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:34.240 in the country. So I remember, you know, flying from Jacksonville, Atlanta, Germany, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.000 and then a six hour labor to, you know, catch 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.559 the flight into almighty Kazakhstan and it's like, man, I'm delirious. 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.520 I've never flown this farm my entire life. I show 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.200 up like ten hours jet lag. I'd get off the 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.120 plane and there's guys with submachine guns, you know, checking 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.400 everybody out, Like, man, what have I got myself into. 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.840 We get on the site and a guy named Ian Gannon, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.600 an Irishman, was our project coordinator there. They said, man, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.640 we got big problems right off the bat. We've got 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.199 twenty five dozers out here, but only two of them work. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.920 They're all in excess of fifty years old. The tracks 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.679 are falling off of them. The laborers don't even have 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.560 proper equipment, you know. They're pick axes, the handles. They're 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.840 whittling them out of trees in the morning and by 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.840 noon the pick axes are broken and they're into their 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.200 bows of vodka. So I was like, man, this is 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.760 going to be that pill climb. So that was That 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.400 was my first, probably most remote project that I had 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.840 as lead architect, and eventually it turned out all right. 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.840 It took about a year to build a golf course. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:42.000 Ian was great. I'd made probably six or seven sight 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.360 visits on that golf course. Today we like to make 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.960 a lot more than that, but those are the heydays, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.640 right We were opening you know, ten to twelve golf 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.280 courses a year, so we had a much different business 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.240 model at the time. But again, that was my first 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.360 golf course. Very proud of the way that turned out. 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.040 With all the headwinds we experienced on that project. 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.320 What kind of concessions did you have to make with 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:09.800 the shotty equipment, you know, suspect crew and then also 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.720 like just like the lack of hand like did you 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.480 have to change the design at all because of that stuff? 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.920 You know, I we had to back off of our 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.800 design standards and specifications otherwise we'd still be there today 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.840 trying to get this thing grassed. Even when the golf 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.160 course was grass they had a superintendent that went out 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.480 there over fertilized a golf course and basically killed all 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.160 the grass and set it back an entire growing season. 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.680 So yeah, it was a new market. It was. It 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.000 was the frontier I guess it still is for golf 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:44.960 and that was that was one of the cool things 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.120 about working for Arnold Palmers, being able to know people 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.040 talk about growing the game, that turn gets overused I 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:52.520 think in a lot of ways. But to be able 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.200 to go to a market like that where people even 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.000 on the construction crew. When I got to go back 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.160 and play the golf course for the first time, you know, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.920 right right when the thing was growing in and I 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.160 was out there with a set of golf clubs hitting shots, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.200 and the guys that had been working on a golf course, 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.600 you know, this light bulb went on their head and 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.040 they were watching this play. They'd never seen anybody body 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.000 play golf before, and they've been working on this project 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.880 the entire time. The light bulb came on, It's like, man, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:18.680 this is what we've been working on. This is this 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.120 is what this is for. They connected the dots that 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:22.800 that was. That was pretty cool. 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.360 What's been I guess in terms of you know, you 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.920 talk about like introducing the game to countries, I you know, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.800 we we talk with a lot of architects that have 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.520 limited scope in terms of building golf courses and countries 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.600 that are pretty new to golf. What is there a 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.240 way you approached courses like say it's the first course 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.840 in a country, differently than if it's a golf course 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:48.440 in America. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.280 Maybe the most simple answer is no. I think you 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.240 want to deliver a golf course as capable of having 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.160 a tournament there, and I think that a lot of 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.200 those first markets they're looking to have some type of 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.800 event there. So you certainly don't want to try to 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.800 design a golf course around maybe a culture that's never 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.000 played the game before. I mean, we certainly try to 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.879 create the ability to play our golf courses along the ground, 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.120 but that doesn't mean they necessarily easy for tournament play either. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.480 So I think maybe the simplest answer is yes and no. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.120 I mean, we want the golf course to be playable 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.360 for everyone, and I think the way you do that is, 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.000 you know, you're taking those tournament considerations into account, but 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.639 you're also taking the ground game trying to factor that 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:38.359 in as well. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:40.439 Yeah, you have to. 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.760 That's got to be an interesting challenge because you're in 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.879 one part designing for the greatest players in the world, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.520 because they you know, it makes you make a great 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.760 Like most places that are building their first course have 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.560 an idea of probably a DP World Tour event or something, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.560 or an Asian Tour event come to play there. But 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.720 then at this on the other hand, You've got people 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.160 going out there that have never played the game before 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.360 in their life play this golf course. 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.560 Right, Yeah, you don't want to turn people off right 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.439 out of the gate. But also you don't want to 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.080 have a you know you mentioned DP World Tour. You know, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.320 whatever whatever event ends up going there, you don't want 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.159 to go out there and shoot forty under par for 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:24.840 the week either. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.879 You talked a little bit about on site time. You 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.560 just brushed on this and the heyday of Arnold Palmer 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.840 designed when you were doing ten courses opening ten courses 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.000 a year. How has Arnold Palmer Designed a design evolved 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.240 really since you've been a part of it. It's been 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.880 where you've been your entire career since your early twenties, 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.160 and how have you seen the firm evolve? 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.560 Yeah, it's completely different again, going from twelve course grand 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.480 openings a year and having forty to fifty. Weas to 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.399 have this huge project board. It was almost over Wornant Welming. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.720 I mean it was about forty feet wide, this whiteboard 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.640 that tracked all of our projects in the three different phases. 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.159 And now I can kind of keep track of everything. 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.800 We're working on a little three by five note card. 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.119 But I think the trade off there, you know, what 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.680 we're sacrificing in volume, we're making up for in quality 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.960 because we're spending so much more time on site. Just 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.040 speaking about my own experience, I've for the past five years, 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:29.560 I've started to shape my own work. You know, I 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.080 was down in Uruguay. Just a side note about that project. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.400 It was post pandemic. We couldn't find a shaper down there, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.840 and I'd been I probably had five or six hundred 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.320 hours on a dozer up to that point, so we 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.760 couldn't get the guys down there that we wanted and 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.520 the project needed to move forward. So I was like, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.600 you know what, I never a better time there. Right now, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.480 we need to keep this thing moving forward. I feel 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.760 comfortable enough where I can get on the dozer and 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.119 also the excavator and do some bunkers as well. So 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.400 that would have been on heard of, you know, back 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.080 in when I started in the early two thousands, for 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.320 an Arnold Palmer architect to get on a piece of 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:11.119 equipment or have the luxury of time to spend you know, 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.879 eight weeks consecutive weeks on a project doing shaping and 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.920 working side by side of the construction team. So as 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.359 far as an evolution, we're getting our hands dirty. We 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.240 like the design bill model. We believe in it. We're 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.120 not fully there yet, and I think we're probably halfway there. 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.439 One of the things that we're doing a lot different too, is, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.480 you know, instead of working directly with the shapers that 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.440 the contractor provides or bringing our own people, we've been 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.240 fortunate enough to work with probably a lot of people 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.720 you've you've talked to or have heard of to do 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.480 our bunkers. I mean, work a lot with Brett Hochstein, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:52.080 Jeff Bradley, even Rob and Tad work with us down 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:56.320 in Naples doing some finish shaping down there. Riley Johns 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.399 is another guy we've worked with. And you know, that 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.720 not only makes our projects better, but that makes us 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:06.280 better as architects. We're not siloed off just looking at 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.160 our own work and the work of you know, maybe 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.320 other brand name designers were, you know, As a golfer, 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.800 I like to get out and play other people's golf courses, 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.119 So I think that's another thing that makes us better 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.879 as architects and as a company. I don't know if 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.760 you've seen any of our work for the past ten years. 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:28.600 But I said, go creek. 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.600 We played, well, there you go Machinele. But yeah, before 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.720 and after that golf course, I mean, I think there's 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.120 some noticeable differences of what we would have done when 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:43.760 I started at Palmer and what we're doing now a 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.720 lot more. You know, center line bunkers issues that are 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:52.719 instead of bunkering holes left and right, you know, taking 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:55.040 one bunker and just putting it right on the center 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.880 line as something we would not have even considered ten 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.240 or fifteen years ago, but we find that that's you know, 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.280 if you provide the appropriate amount of width on either 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.480 side of that bunker, that's a great way to create 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.879 a very interesting golf ball that's asking good questions of 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:15.040