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Speaker 1: Today on the bright Side, we're talking self care, just

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Speaker 1: not the woo woo crystals and candles type of self care.

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Speaker 1: Today I'm joined by a psychiatrist and best selling author,

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Speaker 1: doctor Pooja Lakshmin, to talk about real self care, the

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Speaker 1: lessons that can make life's biggest challenges a little easier

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Speaker 1: to deal with.

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Speaker 2: The ability to say to yourself what really matters to me,

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Speaker 2: what feels true to me, and let me make a

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Speaker 2: decision in that direction, like that's power.

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Speaker 1: I'm simone Voice, and this is the bright Side from

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Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Welcome back to the bright Side. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to start with some bitter sweet news. Today is actually

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Speaker 1: the last episode of the bright Side. I am so

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Speaker 1: deeply grateful to each and every one of you for

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Speaker 1: showing up, for listening and growing with me over these

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Speaker 1: past two seasons. And because of that, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure this last congress is one that leaves you

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Speaker 1: feeling lighter, brighter, and full of hope. And I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: confident today's guest delivers on that. But first I want

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Speaker 1: you to think about what happens when you search self

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Speaker 1: care on TikTok. You'll probably see a lot of twelve

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Speaker 1: step skincare routines a lot of face icing, red light masks,

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Speaker 1: and it got me thinking. For all the talk of

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Speaker 1: discipline and personal growth that we see online, so much

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Speaker 1: of this version of self care comes back to one thing, consumption.

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Speaker 1: What can you buy to fix your life? Today, we're

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Speaker 1: challenging that. We're asking what if the most radical form

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Speaker 1: of self care doesn't require you to add more to

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Speaker 1: your life? What if it's actually about letting go of

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Speaker 1: the opinions and judgments of others. Doctor Puja Lakshmin's book

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Speaker 1: Real Self Care is genuinely one of the best books

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Speaker 1: I have read in the last five years. It's one

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Speaker 1: of my books that is dog eared from cover to cover.

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Speaker 1: Recommend it to everyone I know and love. And that's

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Speaker 1: because Pouja isn't just talking theory. She actually lives what

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Speaker 1: she teaches. She is a psychiatrist who is deeply honest

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Speaker 1: about her own missteps. Today, she's even opening up about

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Speaker 1: a period of her life where she actually joined a

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Speaker 1: cult and how that experience fundamentally reshaped the way that

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Speaker 1: she understands power, boundaries and mental health. By the end

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Speaker 1: of this conversation, you'll walk away with Pooja's full proof

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Speaker 1: process for setting boundaries, how to tune out the shame

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Speaker 1: and guilt and amplify self compassion, and you'll leave with

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Speaker 1: a roadmap for hope, gratitude, and feeling whole. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six, let's get into it, Puja Lakshmin, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the bright Side.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to be here. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: having me.

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Speaker 1: Simon, I'm so thrilled to have you because you know

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Speaker 1: how much of a fan I am of yours and

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Speaker 1: how much of a fan I am of this book

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Speaker 1: Real self Care. So let's start off with some language.

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Speaker 1: What is real self care? How does Poojah Lakshman define

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Speaker 1: self care?

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Speaker 2: So basically, with this book and with this whole concept,

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Speaker 2: I'm contrasting real self care with fae self care and

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Speaker 2: faux self care. Are the things that we buy, the products,

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Speaker 2: the Sephora trips, the juice cleanses. Even the things that

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Speaker 2: sometimes we know are good for us, like the yoga

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Speaker 2: and the meditation, can sometimes be faux self care. And

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Speaker 2: I'll go into a little bit of detail about that

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Speaker 2: just so that nobody feels personally attacked because I love yoga.

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Speaker 2: But basically, what I'm saying with real self care is

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Speaker 2: that real self care is an internal process. It's not

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Speaker 2: something that you can buy or something that you can

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Speaker 2: check off the list. It's actually something that you have

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Speaker 2: to personally grapple with for yourself. There's four principles boundaries, compassion, values,

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Speaker 2: and power, but it's essentially like the internal process is

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Speaker 2: the real self care. And then the tools, the manifestations,

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Speaker 2: the things that you do, those are helpful, but those

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Speaker 2: are they're not actually the principles of real self care.

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Speaker 2: And so someone I want to just like kind of

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Speaker 2: take a step back, because I know sometimes it can

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Speaker 2: be a little bit hard for people to grasp this.

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Speaker 2: The way that this came to me was this was maybe,

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Speaker 2: like I want to say, like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: I had first started my practice, my psychiatry practice at GW,

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Speaker 2: landed my dream job on the faculty, and I started

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Speaker 2: to have patients who were coming in. This was kind

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Speaker 2: of like the height of like wellness Goop things like that,

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Speaker 2: you know, And patients were coming in and they were

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Speaker 2: like doctor Electionan, I'm stressed out, I'm burnt out, I'm

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Speaker 2: not eating while I'm not sleeping, well, and I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's my fault because I have the meditation app

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Speaker 2: on my phone. I know that at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, like after I'm done work, after the kids

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Speaker 2: are in bed, I know I should be meditating. I

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Speaker 2: know I should be doing these wellness practices. But it's

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Speaker 2: the last thing I can bring myself to do. Like

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Speaker 2: I'm here on the couch doom scrolling. I'm here on

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Speaker 2: the couch watching Real Housewives and then beating myself up.

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Speaker 2: And I found myself saying over and over again, this

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Speaker 2: isn't your fault, This isn't your fault. We live in

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Speaker 2: a country where thirty million Americans don't have health insurance.

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Speaker 2: We live in a country where we still don't have

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Speaker 2: federally mandated paid parental leave. This is structural, And so

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Speaker 2: I say, over and over again, you can't meditate your

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Speaker 2: way out of a forty hour work week with no childcare,

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Speaker 2: Like that's not actually how real wellness works. So then

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Speaker 2: it sort of becomes okay, well, then what do I

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Speaker 2: actually do? What do I do to take care of myself?

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Speaker 2: And so the real self care is actually in your choices.

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Speaker 2: The real self care is in how you take charge

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Speaker 2: of your time and your energy and really make tough

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Speaker 2: decisions about what matters. So I like to use this

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Speaker 2: example of yoga to kind of bring to life the

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Speaker 2: difference between foe versus real self care. So imagine a

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Speaker 2: person goes to a yoga class. And this person walks

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Speaker 2: into the yoga class and the first thing they notice

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Speaker 2: is like, oh my gosh, I'm not wearing the right

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Speaker 2: Lululemon leggings. You know, the person next to me can

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Speaker 2: do a headstand. I can't even do crow pose anymore

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Speaker 2: because I'm postpartum. And then they start spiraling. They're like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, you know, Johnny has a math test tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: If I were a good mom, I would be home

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Speaker 2: right now helping him with his math work. I'm a

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Speaker 2: terrible mother. That person leaves yoga feeling even more stressed out,

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Speaker 2: even more in their head, even further from themselves than

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Speaker 2: before they got to yoga. So that's foe, that's faux

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Speaker 2: self care. Now imagine somebody else they go to a

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Speaker 2: yoga class and before they get to yoga, they have

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Speaker 2: a hard conversation with their partner and they say, hey, look,

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Speaker 2: you know I noticed that when I go to yoga

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Speaker 2: once a week. I show up as a better partner,

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Speaker 2: I show up as a better parent. Let's negotiate. I

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Speaker 2: go to yoga on Wednesday nights, you help Johnny with

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Speaker 2: his homework and do bedtime. On Saturdays, you go for

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Speaker 2: your run and I'll take the kids for three hours. Right,

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Speaker 2: they set boundaries, they negotiate. That person gets to yoga

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Speaker 2: and they're not comparing themselves with everybody else. They're not

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Speaker 2: worried about what they're wearing or all that stuff. That

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Speaker 2: person has also really named for themselves why they like

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Speaker 2: yoga and why they're even there. It's not just because,

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Speaker 2: like Mel Robbins told me to go to yoga. Nothing

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Speaker 2: wrong with Mel Robinson yoga. But it's like you have

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Speaker 2: to internalize it for yourself. For some people, it's like

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Speaker 2: I like yoga because it makes me feel strong. For

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Speaker 2: other people this for myself, I really like the community

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Speaker 2: aspect of yoga. I like being in a room with

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Speaker 2: other people who are doing the same thing and we're

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Speaker 2: you know, I kind of come to the same place

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Speaker 2: for the same vibe. You have to name it for

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Speaker 2: yourself so that person is actually present and they take

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Speaker 2: in the medicine of yoga, that's real self care. But

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Speaker 2: on the surface, both people have checked yoga off the list,

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Speaker 2: So does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: One thousand percent? And You've touched on so many things

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Speaker 1: there that I want to unpack. I want to come

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Speaker 1: back to a word that you use that I think

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Speaker 1: is so profound. You linked real self care to choices.

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Speaker 1: That's really what it comes down to. And I think

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Speaker 1: the reason why I resonate with your work so much

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Speaker 1: is because your definition of self care doesn't require us

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Speaker 1: to add anything. You're actually asking us to subtract, no,

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Speaker 1: and make more clear headed choices.

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Speaker 2: For sure. And I know that you talk about or

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Speaker 2: you've recently been talking about sort of like this non

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Speaker 2: linear path, yes, and like a non linear life, which

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Speaker 2: I think kind of connects to choices, right, because it's

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Speaker 2: about agency and in order to exert agency, even in

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Speaker 2: a system where so much is out of our control,

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Speaker 2: we're so much is structurally wrong. The ability to say

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Speaker 2: to yourself what really matters to me, what feels true

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Speaker 2: to me, and let me make a decision in that direction,

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Speaker 2: Like that's power. You know, when I was researching for

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Speaker 2: the book, I actually looked through the research to find

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Speaker 2: out like when did this term self care even come about?

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Speaker 2: Because I was like, you know, Sephora did not coin

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Speaker 2: the term self care as much as me when I

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Speaker 2: think they did. And actually turns out that there's two lineages,

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Speaker 2: so both in like the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties. So

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Speaker 2: the first is a civil rights movement, like folks like

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Speaker 2: Audrey Lord and Belle Hooks who we're talking about self

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Speaker 2: care as self preservation specifically, if you are somebody who

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Speaker 2: who is a minoritized group and where the culture of

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Speaker 2: the society is actively, you know, trying to oppress you,

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Speaker 2: trying to hurt you, self care is your way of

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Speaker 2: actually taking back your bodily autonomy. The other place that

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Speaker 2: it comes from, and this was shocking to me, it's

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Speaker 2: actually in psychiatry. It was shocking because I feel like

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Speaker 2: psychiatry does not have a great record for human rights,

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Speaker 2: so this is surprise. But actually psychiatrists use the term

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Speaker 2: self care to describe the small decisions that patients who

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Speaker 2: were unlocked psych words, so people who were involuntarily hospitalized,

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Speaker 2: they had so many of their rights taken away, they

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Speaker 2: used a term self care to describe like what clothes

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Speaker 2: that person would pick out, which exercise class, that were

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Speaker 2: going to go to what they were going to eat

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Speaker 2: for lunch. Those were self care type decisions, and that

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Speaker 2: again was like another kind of AHA for me, because

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Speaker 2: similar to the Civil rights movement, it was saying, like,

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Speaker 2: so much is out of our control, so much is

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Speaker 2: going wrong, and yet here are these small places that

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Speaker 2: I can take back agency. And that's the magic. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if we want to use that word, it's about saying

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Speaker 2: I have the self efficacy to steer the ship.

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Speaker 1: This definition of self care is actually pretty radical and

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Speaker 1: revolutionary because we are bombarded with images of items that

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Speaker 1: we need to buy in order to heal ourselves. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is constant, and I feel like right now I

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Speaker 1: am reaching this saturation point with just influencers selling me

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Speaker 1: things and podcasters selling me supplements. It's just everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And it's for a reason too. It's not by accident.

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Speaker 2: And I don't mean I don't think anybody most people.

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Speaker 2: Most folks are not doing it maliciously. And I think

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Speaker 2: from kind of a structural level, when you live in

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Speaker 2: a hyper capitalist society, the thing that keeps society going

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Speaker 2: is the economy and consumerism. And so if self care

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Speaker 2: is outside of you is if you always need something

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Speaker 2: more to feel better. If it's commercial, then it keeps

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Speaker 2: people attached to spending money and needing more, whereas if

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Speaker 2: self care is this real version where the first step

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Speaker 2: is boundaries, where you have to really actually let go

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Speaker 2: and acknowledge the fact that there's only so much you

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Speaker 2: can have and only so much you can do, and

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Speaker 2: you have to make real choices, then people fall off

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Speaker 2: of that treadmill of buying and having and more and

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Speaker 2: more and more. And I think, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: I honestly think that this kind of gets to the

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Speaker 2: root of so much of what's wrong in American culture

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Speaker 2: in particular. You know, I think we have a hard

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Speaker 2: time with acknowledging limits and with understanding when enough is

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Speaker 2: enough and when we have enough and when we've done enough.

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Speaker 2: So thank you. I mean, it is radical. I had

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Speaker 2: somebody once say that this book is kind of a

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Speaker 2: Trojan horse. The cover's pink, right, so, you know, but

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Speaker 2: it really is it's about like you can take control

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Speaker 2: of your life.

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Speaker 1: As we're talking about consumerism, I definitely want to hold

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Speaker 1: space for the women out there who do have the

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Speaker 1: twelve step skincare routines and who do buy every single

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Speaker 1: news skincare gadget when it comes out on the market.

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Speaker 1: Not because I want to hold space for consumerism, but

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Speaker 1: I want to hold space for the rationale behind that,

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Speaker 1: because I think the reason why we do that and

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Speaker 1: I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it gives us a

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Speaker 1: sense of control in a world that feels out of

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Speaker 1: our control.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought it up, because

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Speaker 2: a lot of times when I give talks, people come

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Speaker 2: up to me like they're like ashamed. They're afraid that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to like yell at them because they love

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Speaker 2: their twelve step skin care routine. Like, I'm not here

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Speaker 2: to shame you, I promise, Like it's okay. It's really

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Speaker 2: like what you said, it's about the reason underneath, and

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Speaker 2: it's also about your expectations. So I think control is

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Speaker 2: a piece of it. Control again, coming back to like

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Speaker 2: agency in the more out of control our external environs is,

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Speaker 2: the more we kind of reach for systems and potential

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Speaker 2: solutions that could give us a sense of control. Again,

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Speaker 2: that in itself is not a bad thing. This is

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Speaker 2: a matter though, of volume. So are you expecting that

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Speaker 2: skincare routine to fix your whole life. If you have perfect,

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Speaker 2: flawless porcelain skin without pores, does that somehow mean that

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Speaker 2: you are a better person and you are going to

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Speaker 2: get you know, a better spouse and going to you know,

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Speaker 2: excel in your career all these other things, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: what are you attributing to that? Or is it more

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Speaker 2: that you've noticed when you spend twenty minutes every night

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Speaker 2: taking care of yourself, like physically taking care of yourself

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Speaker 2: and doing something that is just for you and that

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Speaker 2: feels really important, that you feel more calm, that you

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Speaker 2: feel that you've prioritized something that's important for you. No,

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Speaker 2: this isn't going to be magically fix every single problem

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Speaker 2: in your marriage or you know, all these other things.

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Speaker 2: So the xtation pieces right, and the place where commercialism,

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of is seductive is all of these

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Speaker 2: advertisements that we see they are subtly selling us like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, if you buy this, your life is going

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Speaker 2: to be fixed. If you buy this, you're going to

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Speaker 2: feel better permanently. So that's where we have to use

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Speaker 2: our critical thinking skills a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Even when I think back to ten years ago, the

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Speaker 1: volume of self care products and beauty products, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to avoid. And I mean thinking about ten

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Speaker 1: years ago. There is this trend on social media right

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Speaker 1: now where people are reliving their twenty sixteen days. So

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Speaker 1: I want to throw that prompt over to you. Take

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Speaker 1: me back to Poujia ten years ago. Can you describe

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Speaker 1: your worst self care habits from back then?

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Speaker 2: So it's funny. I was actually thinking about this this

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Speaker 2: morning because I saw the trend. So twenty sixteen, I

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Speaker 2: had just graduated from my psychiatry residency at GW and

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Speaker 2: it was around that time that I started for the

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Speaker 2: first time thinking I want to write a book. I

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Speaker 2: want to write a book, but I want to write

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Speaker 2: a book that is not for other doctors or other researchers.

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Speaker 2: I want to write a book that is for regular people.

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Speaker 2: And that felt very radical at the time because all

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Speaker 2: I had known was doctor world. I'd been in school

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Speaker 2: for a decade to become a doctor, to become a physician,

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Speaker 2: and so it was this big leap for me to

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Speaker 2: figure out, you know, how do I pitch how do

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Speaker 2: I pitch freelance articles, how do I start posting on

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Speaker 2: social media? All these different things. At that time, I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to think I don't know that self care as

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Speaker 2: like a I was hearing my patients talk about wellness,

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Speaker 2: I was not doing very much self care. I will say,

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Speaker 2: this is kind of embarrassing to admit. So my now partner,

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Speaker 2: Justin we had just started dating back in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and he always likes to tell the story because I

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Speaker 2: don't cook. I used to eat Dominoes or Chili's nachos.

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Speaker 2: That was my dinner every night. And it was not

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Speaker 2: until I know how it was a standing right now,

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Speaker 2: it's like really embarrassing, and it wasn't until we really

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Speaker 2: started dating. He loves to cook. He does all the

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Speaker 2: cooking now, so he's always just like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: how how are you surviving?

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Speaker 1: For the record, that Domino's Thin Crest pizzas Fire's right,

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Speaker 1: it's so good.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I think part of this journey too,

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Speaker 2: for me, in doing this work now ten years later,

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Speaker 2: is understanding, like I have to practice what I preach.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be one of those people that's

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Speaker 2: up here sort of like from an ivory tower saying

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Speaker 2: like this is what you need to do. But here

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Speaker 2: I'm going to like eat my Dominoes. Everyone can have

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Speaker 2: their dominoes if they really want it right. But I

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Speaker 2: need to set boundaries too. I need to practice compassion.

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Speaker 2: I need to live by my values, even if that

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Speaker 2: means I make mistakes, I make the wrong call, people

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Speaker 2: get mad, you know. So, I think that, especially for

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Speaker 2: those of us who are trying to publicly have these

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Speaker 2: types of hard conversations, I think that's a piece too

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Speaker 2: of like we have to live this work too.

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Speaker 1: I think you do. I have to say for everyone listening,

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Speaker 1: Poosia really does practice what she preaches. Because we've been

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Speaker 1: trying to set up this interview for a few months,

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Speaker 1: but Poosia just had twins six months ago, and she

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Speaker 1: was courageous enough to say, you know what, I need

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Speaker 1: to wait until i'm a bit further out from delivery,

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Speaker 1: when I'm in a better space mentally to do this interview.

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Speaker 1: And I love that you did that. You really are

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Speaker 1: setting an example.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that. I've had to do that

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Speaker 2: a couple times now with podcasts that I've been very

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Speaker 2: excited to come on, but I've had to kind of

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Speaker 2: be like, you know what, like I want to do

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Speaker 2: this show when I'm feeling one hundred percent and I

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Speaker 2: also know and I trust that what's here for me

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Speaker 2: is here for me, and that I don't need to

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Speaker 2: be in kind of like a scarcity mindset or a

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Speaker 2: mindset where I have to prove something. And it also

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Speaker 2: helps when folks are compassionate and understanding and also kind

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Speaker 2: of get that there's so much going on, especially for

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Speaker 2: us as moms.

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Speaker 1: We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back with Puja Lakshmi and we're back. You've been

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Speaker 1: very open about the fact that motherhood has really shaped

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Speaker 1: and reshaped your definition of self care. I also am

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Speaker 1: really curious about the chapter of your life where you

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Speaker 1: were involved with a cult and how that redefined what

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Speaker 1: self care looks like for you now and how you

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Speaker 1: set boundaries now. Would you tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So this was way back in like twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: twenty twelve. I was like in my mid to late twenties.

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Speaker 2: Up until that point, I had done everything that I

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Speaker 2: was supposed to do as a good Indian girl. And

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Speaker 2: my parents are are South Asian. They came to the

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Speaker 2: United States as immigrants from India, and I'm the eldest daughter.

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Speaker 2: So it's pretty much decided from when I was in

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Speaker 2: the womb that I would be a doctor. My father's

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Speaker 2: a physician. So I went to medical school, I went

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Speaker 2: to an Ivy league college, I got married, I did

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Speaker 2: everything I was supposed to, and then I was in

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Speaker 2: my psychiatry residency and I kind of checked all the

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Speaker 2: boxes and I was like, Okay, well, now it's time

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Speaker 2: for me to figure out how to be happy. Now

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Speaker 2: I can be happy. Yeah, spoiler alert. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to be happy because I had built so much

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Speaker 2: of my life based on everybody else's values and based

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Speaker 2: on what everybody else wanted for me, and not that

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Speaker 2: those things were wrong. You know, my parents, especially as immigrants,

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Speaker 2: they wanted me to have a stable career and have

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Speaker 2: a successful profession and have, you know, a stable life.

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Speaker 2: But I had not wrestled with what I really cared

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Speaker 2: about or what I valued. I just assumed that if

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Speaker 2: my life from the outside was shiny and prestigious and

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Speaker 2: kind of had all the things that you're supposed to have,

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Speaker 2: that then I would feel good on the inside. So

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Speaker 2: I kind of just blew it all up. I dropped

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Speaker 2: out of my residency, I blew up my marriage, and

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Speaker 2: I moved into the wellness commune in San Francisco that

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Speaker 2: was focused on spirituality and female sexuality and meditation. Everybody

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Speaker 2: in my life was very worried about me. They were

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Speaker 2: kind of like what happened to Pooja? But I really

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Speaker 2: needed that. I was with that group for two years

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Speaker 2: and I needed to really explore for myself, in particular

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Speaker 2: the wellness world, really because at that time I was

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Speaker 2: also feeling very disillusioned with mainstream medicine and psychiatry and

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Speaker 2: the limitations that existed in psychiatry, and so I thought,

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Speaker 2: maybe I can find these answers in the wellness world.

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Speaker 2: And by the end of that period of time, I realized,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's just as many hypocrisies and inconsistencies in

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Speaker 2: that world as well, and you can't outsource your decision making.

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Speaker 2: You can't. There's no one guru, there's no one diet

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Speaker 2: or wellness program that is going to fix your life,

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Speaker 2: and that in reality, like with real self care, it's

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Speaker 2: actually just about making tough decisions, you know, like we

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Speaker 2: talked about the yoga example, like setting the boundaries with

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Speaker 2: your partner and acknowledge that you can't be a super mom.

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Speaker 2: You have to take time for yourself. And so I

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Speaker 2: left that group and that was the hardest, hardest time

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Speaker 2: in my life. I came back to medicine and kind

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Speaker 2: of realizing that if I was going to be a doctor,

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Speaker 2: if I was going to be a psychiatrist, that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do it on my own terms. And so

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Speaker 2: that enabled me then to set boundaries. I spent a

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Speaker 2: few years in full time academic medicine, but then started

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Speaker 2: a private practice, and then started writing for the New

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Speaker 2: York Times and doing social media work, which then led

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Speaker 2: to me writing this book, which all was me following

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Speaker 2: my own voice and setting boundaries with I guess, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of other avenues or other paths that maybe other

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Speaker 2: people expected me to take. I found out, you know,

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Speaker 2: years later, about a lot of very terrible things that

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Speaker 2: happened with this group and the really a cult, you know,

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Speaker 2: which it's funny I always say, like when I'm giving talks,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I had this experience, Like spoiler alert,

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Speaker 2: it did turn out to be a cult.

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Speaker 1: How do you think that experience influenced your work as

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Speaker 1: a doctor going forward?

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Speaker 2: A couple ways. One, it gave me so much compassion

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Speaker 2: for patients who have felt let down by mainstream medicine

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Speaker 2: and had to search for themselves to find an answer

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Speaker 2: because they were dismissed or disregarded by the mainstream medical system.

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Speaker 2: And then I think it also gave me compassion for

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Speaker 2: myself too. I did something that was just so on

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Speaker 2: the fringe, just so outside of the mainstream, that when

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Speaker 2: I came back from that, I had so much more courage,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I think that's also part of what

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Speaker 2: allows me to hold strong boundaries now and to feel

433
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: confident in what is for me professionally and what is

434
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: not for me, because I've rebuilt from something that felt

435
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: so devastating. So now I understand that that powers and

436
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: within me. It's not something that anybody can take away

437
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: from me.

438
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: I would love to transition into a discussion around boundaries. Now,

439
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: what are the non negotiables of boundary setting.

440
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: My take on boundaries is a little bit different. I

441
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 2: don't think of boundaries as saying no, because saying no

442
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 2: always comes.

443
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: With a cost.

444
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: There's always a cost to know, whether that's financial, whether

445
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: that's interpersonal, whether it's emotional. So I think of boundaries

446
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: as the pause, and then you have three options, yes, no,

447
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: or negotiate. So the example that I give is, you know,

448
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 2: when I was working in DC in my clinical practice

449
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: at GW. You know, sometimes the front desk would call

450
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: me and they would say, hey, Pooja, hey, doctor Lashman,

451
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: we have some insurance paperwork for you to fill out.

452
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: And before, when I thought boundaries was a yes or no,

453
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: I would feel panicked like I needed to say yes, okay,

454
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: bring it over, or no, I can't do it. And

455
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 2: then when I realized it was the pause, I could

456
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 2: take a second and say, Okay, this is non urgent.

457
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: I'll come around at the end of the day and

458
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: sign all the forms when I'm done. Whereas if maybe

459
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: it's a patient calling and it's a woman who a

460
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: patient who I know, like if she misses a dose

461
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: of her adderall, like she literally could get into a

462
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: car accident. Okay, like I'm going to put that refill

463
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: in right away. So it's yes, no, or negotiate. When

464
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: I say negotiate, what I mean is like yeah, saying

465
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: to the front desk, I'll come around later. That's negotiate

466
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: Because the thing is that no is not always accessible, right,

467
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: So like if you're at a company where they're going

468
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: through restructuring, and your boss says to you, hey, can

469
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: you come and work on this project on the weekend?

470
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 2: Can you be on call over the weekend? And you

471
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: say no, I can't. You could lose your job, you know,

472
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: like that's that's a real risk, and maybe you carry

473
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: the health insurance for your whole family, Like no may

474
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: not be accessible. But what you can do in that

475
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: moment is say for yourself, Okay, I know that I

476
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: wanted to say no, but I couldn't say no. So

477
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: what do I need to do? So that's six months

478
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: from now, the no can be more accessible for me.

479
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: How do I reverse engineer that? And that's a question, right,

480
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: that's like an operational question, that's a logistical question. You

481
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: can take that to your coach, you can take that

482
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 2: to your therapist, you can take that to your group chat.

483
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: As opposed to just staying in the guilt of like

484
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: am I allowed to say no? Like am I going

485
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: to lose my job? Am I going to write? And

486
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: that place is like a tortuous place and it's not helpful.

487
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought up guilt because I've

488
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: grown so much when it comes to setting boundaries. But

489
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: whenever I do struggle with it, it's because I'm wrestling

490
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: with the potential blowback from someone else's response. And you

491
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: dedicate a large part of your book to creating space

492
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: between you and the opinions and judgment of others, and

493
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: you talk about this concept of psychological flexibility. How can

494
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: that actually help us move away from guilt and even

495
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: mom guilt?

496
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: So, psychological flexibility is a term that comes from Acceptance

497
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: and Commitment Therapy ACT. If anybody has been through that

498
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: type of therapy, it's a type of therapy that is

499
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: quote unquote third wave therapy. So the first wave of

500
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: therapy was Freud, who said everything is your parent's fault,

501
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: which was not untrue, but maybe a bit simplistic. Second

502
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: wave is CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, which says like you

503
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: can change your thoughts, and if you change your thoughts,

504
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: then you can feel better, which again is a little

505
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: bit simplified. The third wave ACT says that it's actually

506
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: not that productive to constantly be fighting with your thoughts.

507
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 2: It's not that productive to constantly be fighting with your

508
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: guilt because when you're fighting with it, when you're trying

509
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: to disprove it or prove it, you're still giving it

510
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: so much power. So instead, let's turn our attention to

511
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: other things that matter more. Let's turn our attention to

512
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: how we want to show up in the world. Let's

513
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: turn our attention to our values. So the way that

514
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: this shows up, so you said, mom guilt. And one

515
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: of the examples I use in the book is I

516
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: was leading a postpartum support group and there was a

517
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: new mom who came in. She had her like infant

518
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: with her, and she said, I feel so bad. I

519
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: don't know what to do. I just found out from

520
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: my job that I have two extra weeks of FMLA

521
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: from DC that nobody knew about that I can take

522
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: that I'm entitled to. But I feel so bad because

523
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: I know that this is a busy time of year

524
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: at work and my team is expecting me to be back.

525
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: So if I were to take that leave that's entitled

526
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: to me, I feel like I'm a bad person. If

527
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: I decide to go back, then I feel like I'm

528
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: a bad mom because I do really want to be

529
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: here with my daughter. I want that extra time with her.

530
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, isn't it so interesting that

531
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: no matter which choice you make, you're the bad guy,

532
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: you're wrong, you're somehow a terrible person. I was like,

533
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense because here you are like you

534
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: seemingly have or a generally like seem like you're a

535
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: generally pleasant person. You have a partner that loves you,

536
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 2: you have a kid, you have a job, Like if

537
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: you were such a terrible person, all these things would

538
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: not be true. Right, So this isn't actually a you problem.

539
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: This is the social construct. This is a structure, right,

540
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: this is a society. As we talked about how this

541
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: problem is outside of us because we're living in this

542
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: culture that does not support us. So I often say

543
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: that we should think of guilt sort of like a

544
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: faulty check engine light on our car dashboard. You know,

545
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: you've gotten your oil changed, everything's been checked up on

546
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: your car, and it's fine, but there's still like a

547
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 2: light that just keeps beeping. It doesn't actually give you

548
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: any valuable information. You can just let it beep, like,

549
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: you can just let it go. And that's sort of

550
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: in line with psychological flexibility. So what psychological flexibility says

551
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: is like, Okay, the guilt can just be there. It

552
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be like a moral indictment on you,

553
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: and it's actually not possible to make it go away,

554
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: because if you make all of your choices in service

555
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: of not feeling guilty, then you will be so far

556
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: away from what is actually true for you.

557
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a question and you may

558
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: not have the answer, so feel free to just brush

559
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: me off. But I'm really curious now about the evolutionary

560
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: reason behind guilt. Do you know, is there a primal

561
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: reason why we've developed this adaptation to feel guilty about

562
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: all the choices that we have to make.

563
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: So I don't have like a research answer off the

564
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: top of my head, so I'm just answering sort of

565
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: off the cuff based on my clinical experience and my reading,

566
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: which is that humans are primarily social creatures and we

567
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: are wired to be cooperative and to help each other,

568
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: like we need each other to survive. The problem that

569
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: comes in though, is, as we've talked about, like we

570
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: live in a society that has no communal safety net.

571
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: We're all kind of struggling. We're all operating at this

572
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: level of like fight or flight so often. So when

573
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: your best friend, you know, is also struggling so much,

574
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: and you know that your boss is going through divorce,

575
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: and you know that your other coworker has a husband

576
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: who has long COVID. You we're trying to caregive for

577
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: all these other people because you also know that there's

578
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: not really a safety net. So it's not that it's

579
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: like a wrong response, it's that we have to again

580
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: acknowledge there's only so much that you can do as

581
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: one person, and that by you giving into the guilt

582
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: each time, what happens is that then you are more

583
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: likely to burn out, and then you're of no help

584
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: to anybody either. So I often say, you know, when

585
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: I speak and give talks, a lot of times I'm

586
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: hired to come speak to other healthcare workers or are

587
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: also teachers educators, and because both of those fields are

588
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, very there's lots of burnout. And I say

589
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: success is staying in the game. Success is staying in

590
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: the game. And so the guilt piece if you say

591
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: yes to everything, if you are constantly at the back

592
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: and call of everybody else, that's when you burn out,

593
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: and that's when you leave. That's when you leave the field.

594
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: You know.

595
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: But if you want to have a career that has longevity,

596
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: and if you want to be able to stay for

597
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: the long haul. Then that means that you have to

598
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: learn to take care of your own needs too, And

599
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: I mean I think this obviously, this supplies for any

600
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: type of caregiving, whether it's parenting or taking care of

601
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: you know, sick kids or parents or things like that.

602
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more pusha lakshmin after this

603
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: break and we're back. Guilt is a close cousin of shame, right,

604
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: how is shame different and what are the unexpected consequences

605
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: of shame based thinking?

606
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: So guilt is going back to that yoga class example,

607
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: Guilt is, oh, man, I feel really bad that I

608
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: didn't help Johnny with his homework. I really should have.

609
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: I should have been there, I should have done that.

610
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: Shame is I'm a bad mom. I'm a bad mom

611
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: because I didn't help Johnny with his math homework. And

612
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: more often than not, I see the shame. I see

613
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: the shame come up. The guilt is there too, but

614
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: the shame is underneath it. And your other question of

615
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: what are the consequences of shame based thinking, I mean,

616
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: like all all the consequences, like you know, depression, anxiety, Right,

617
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: it's shame based thinking. Is underneath so many different mental

618
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: health conditions. It's really kind of the backbone of so

619
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: many ways in that that we can really struggle mentally.

620
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: We'll give you an example, and it's one that you

621
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: also talk about in your book. I was hanging out

622
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: with a girlfriend the other day and we were talking

623
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: about slight little adjustments we want to make this year

624
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: for our lives, and she said that she wanted to

625
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: do more things for herself. She wanted to choose herself more. Often,

626
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: she's constantly choosing her husband's interests or her for children,

627
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: choosing them and choosing to make them happy, and in

628
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: that process, she's neglected to even understand what her own

629
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: desires are. She doesn't even know what they are. So

630
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: she's starting from a place of gosh, I need to

631
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: really understand what I need and want.

632
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: Yes, So I hear this all the time. I hear

633
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: this all the time, because once you start setting boundaries

634
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: and taking space for yourself, usually that's the first thing

635
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: that happens. You're just like, I don't even know what

636
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: I want. I don't even know what I like because

637
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: I've spent maybe a decade prioritizing everybody else. So the

638
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: idea of like, well what do I want to do?

639
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: It just feels so foreign. So that's important because you

640
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: need to remember when you get to that place that's normal.

641
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean go back and start being a martyr again.

642
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: That means stay with it. And actually you have to

643
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: start really small. So for your friend, for example, like

644
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: the homework excignment that I would give her would be

645
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: decide every day, eat what you actually want to eat

646
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: for lunch, even if it's the sushi place across town

647
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: and it's a big pain in the butt to get to,

648
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: or you have to pay an extra ten dollars for

649
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: the Uber Eats or whatever. Let yourself feel that morning,

650
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: hey what do I want to eat for lunch today?

651
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: And then decide then, because that is the muscle that

652
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: you're working. It's it's like your own preferences, your own desire,

653
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: and that hunger like that that can come from food.

654
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: So that's often one of the kind of small ways.

655
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: The other thing that I sometimes say, like in just

656
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: but also for real, because for a lot of folks

657
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: you have to start really remedial is like when you

658
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: need to pee pee, don't don't like write five more emails,

659
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: like actually get up and go pee. It's like it's

660
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: listening to your body.

661
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: You know, I'm so guilty of that. I mean, I'm

662
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: so glad you said that. You were you were speaking

663
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: to me directly.

664
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: Right.

665
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: Then, when I think about desires, I think about the

666
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 1: many competing voices that are in our heads. So first,

667
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about the voice of the inner critic, because

668
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, that's the loudest one. So

669
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: I'm to ask you, pooja, or you can just choose

670
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: to answer generally. If your inner critic had a LinkedIn profile,

671
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: what kinds of skills and experiences would we find on there?

672
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's a great question that that LinkedIn

673
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: profile would be. Well, that would be you know, that

674
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: would be somebody that went to Harvard for like all

675
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: of their degrees, and you know, has like a million

676
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: social media followers and like it's a CEO times ten

677
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: and has like five kids and a pinterest perfect house, right.

678
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: You know that person would be able to make decisions

679
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: like that. You know, that person would be able to

680
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: say what they wanted all the time, and that person

681
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: would know very clearly kind of how to act in

682
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: any different circumstance.

683
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: Because those are things that you struggle with.

684
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny because I was just thinking,

685
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 2: if I would have answered this question like ten years ago,

686
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: my inner critic would have been much more shame based.

687
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: My inner critic would have been in somebody who says

688
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: I work hard all the time. I put in one

689
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: hundred and ten percent for every single thing. You know,

690
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,959
Speaker 2: I'm never late on a deadline. And I think through

691
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: my own process of real self care of a decade

692
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: of psychotherapy, I don't have that inner shameful voice anymore. Now.

693
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: My inner critic, I think, is more like the things

694
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: that I'm working on, which in many ways I'm pretty

695
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: good at knowing what's for me and what's not for me,

696
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 2: being able to choose fairly quickly which direction to go in.

697
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 2: But I think what's still there maybe is that perfectionism, right,

698
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: kind of having wanting to be at that level every

699
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: single time, which in reality is unrealistic. But that's the

700
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: thing with the inner critic. They're always going to be

701
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: driving you to be better. They're always going to be

702
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: asking for more. One of the exercises that I do

703
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 2: sometimes with patients is if you could give your inner

704
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: critic a character name, who would it be? You had

705
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: a patient that said her inner critic is Miranda Priestley

706
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: from the devil Wars Praduct so good in Yeah, mine

707
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: is actually Angelica from Rograts, which is probably like dating

708
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: me a little bit, but that was my cartoon growing up.

709
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you.

710
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have an Angelica bobblehead on my desk to

711
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: remind me of my inner critic. But yeah, yeah, how

712
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: about you tell me what would your LinkedIn profile look

713
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: like for your inner critic.

714
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: I think that I've gotten so much better at overcoming

715
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: self doubt and fear, but there's still a little niggling

716
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: voice in the back of my head that will ask,

717
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: what if this doesn't succeed? What if this doesn't work out?

718
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: I used to really struggle with this idea that I

719
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: wasn't disciplined enough. I have this really beautifully chaotic creative brain.

720
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: I have dozens and dozens of notes folders on my

721
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: phone with just scribbles of creative ideas or writing ideas,

722
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: And for the longest time I thought that was a

723
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: bad thing and I would shame myself for it because

724
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: I lacked the discipline to follow through on a lot

725
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: of those ideas. But I have so much more discipline now,

726
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: which I think is great. And I also have so

727
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 1: much more compassion for that beautiful, little crazy mind of mine,

728
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 1: and I kind of love it, and I think it's

729
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: a superpower.

730
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: I love that. Can I just say one thing that

731
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: is very therapy asked, but I feel called.

732
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: To say, please you.

733
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 2: One of the things that helps me when I think

734
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: about when I feel worried trying something new and worried

735
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: that if doesn't succeed, I just remind myself that the

736
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: most important thing for any project that I do is

737
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: to take me to the next thing, is to just

738
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: get me to the next thing, right, Like it's nothing

739
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: has to be perfect, nothing has to be this like

740
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 2: amazing blowout success if it is great, But really it's

741
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: about my own process and where it's leading me and

742
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: kind of following that thread. So each step of the

743
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: way is the next step.

744
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, something else just came to me, and it's something

745
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: that I'm feeling more and more as I get older.

746
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: I think that inner critic is harping on the fact

747
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: that time is running out. This myth that oh gosh,

748
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: you're running out of time, You're almost forty or you're

749
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: you know, your kids are growing up so fast. That

750
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: is a narrative that I feel like is so hard

751
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: to drown out. And it seems like it only gets

752
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: louder the older that I get.

753
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. I'm actually I'm working on my next

754
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: book right now and it's called Quantum Shifts. It's all

755
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: about how to survive change. It's turning into kind of

756
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: like a new theory of change. It's it's sort of

757
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: like how do we do change? Like we need a

758
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: new playbook for doing change living in this world that

759
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: is changing so fast. And one of the things that

760
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: I'm talking about is time is like exactly what you said,

761
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 2: Like this feeling of like time is slipping away. I'm

762
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: not moving fast enough, I'm not getting there fast enough.

763
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: It really ends up hampering the creative process. It ends

764
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: up hampering your decision making because then you end up

765
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: choosing out of panic or fear. But I think it

766
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: is it's ubiquitous, and it's something that I'm kind of

767
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: working on how to help ease some of that catastrophizing.

768
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: Yes, So do you have anything for me yet? Or

769
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: do I have to wait for the book?

770
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: Do you have to wait for the book. I think.

771
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: I don't think any of my stuff that I have

772
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: yet is ready for prime time.

773
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well, I can't wait to read it. We

774
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: talked about giving our inner critic a name, which is

775
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: one of my favorite hacks that I've learned from you.

776
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: There are other voices in our heads, though, that aren't

777
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: all bad, and we can choose to amplify those voices too.

778
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Well, you know, I think the journey and

779
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: process that you just described about how you have come

780
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: to accept your brain and how your brain works is

781
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: kind of a nice example, I think, because you know,

782
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 2: you said something about how you've come to love that

783
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: creative voice, maybe the voice that's a little bit chaotic

784
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: and a bit strange, but it's its own, very distinct voice,

785
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: and when you listen to it, it can be so powerful.

786
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: So that's one example. I think. Another really nice one

787
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: that sometimes I take solace in is my mom voice,

788
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: the voice that I use when I'm consoling my three

789
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: and a half year old, when I'm telling him, like, oh,

790
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: you know, oh your chicken nugget fell down. It's okay,

791
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: it's okay, it's all right. We'll get another one. And

792
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: that kind of voice. Right, it's like this, you're a

793
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: mom too, so you know that voice where you're being gentle.

794
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: You're being gentle. So sometimes it's voices that you use

795
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: for other people, for other relationships, but you can kind

796
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: of hone in on them and bring them out and

797
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: say like, oh, I can use this for myself too.

798
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: Oh that's so good, that's so good. You talk about

799
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: this concept of becoming disembodied, which sounds a lot like

800
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: survival mode where you're not eating or drinking water, your

801
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: doom scrolling all the time, you're just going through the

802
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: motions like on an autopilot. What is the first step

803
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: to rewinding that process and getting real self care back

804
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: into our bodies.

805
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 2: So the first step actually is a little bit counterintuitive

806
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: because what you might initially think is like I need

807
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: to rest. I need to rest because I'm disassociated, so

808
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 2: I need to rest and come back into my body.

809
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: But what I find actually is that you need a

810
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: little bit of dopamine. You need something to help kind

811
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 2: of light you up again. So when I have patients

812
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: who maybe are like spending a week or two in

813
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 2: that place, I say, Okay, we need to find something

814
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: something weird and silly for you to do. You need

815
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: to take an afternoon off or even just two hours

816
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: off and go see that silly movie that you really

817
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: wanted to see and just go by yourself. Or you

818
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: need to download that romance novel that is totally ridiculous

819
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: and spend three hours reading that romance novel. Like it

820
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: should be something that it feels very you, very specific

821
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: to you, maybe that your friends even are like, oh

822
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: that's oh gosh, that's like weird, and they're rolling your

823
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: eyes their eyes. It should be something like that because

824
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: you need to come back to yourself. Hmm.

825
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: This is further proof of my theory that silliness is

826
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: the cure for everything.

827
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah, it helps

828
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 2: a lot.

829
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does. It really well. I think there's

830
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: a process of reconnecting with your inner child through the silliness.

831
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: And then anytime we're integrating all the parts of ourselves,

832
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: that's always when I feel my best.

833
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that also speaks to one way

834
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: in that these times, you know, tm are particularly hard

835
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: because I think we feel like, you know, things are

836
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: so hard, so we need to be very serious and

837
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: we need to be right like we're the adults, and

838
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 2: in fact, even in these types of times, it's actually

839
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: so important to have silliness, to have laughter, to have joy,

840
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: to have light, even when we feel guilty doing it.

841
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: I think hand in hand with silliness is gratitude as

842
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: one of the tools that I find myself reaching for

843
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: whenever I find it hard to get up out of

844
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: bed in the morning. And as I was thumbing through

845
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: your book researching for our conversation today, I came across

846
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: this passage on gratitude. It's on page one eighty three,

847
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: and I would love for you to read it for us,

848
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: if you could start at when we pay attention to.

849
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: When we pay attention to the fruits of what we

850
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: have in our life already, whether that is the small

851
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: pleasures like our morning cup of coffee or bigger achievements

852
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: like a job promotion or a healthy family, we actively

853
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: engage with what is real and true in our world.

854
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 2: And the reality is that for all of us, there

855
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: is good along with the bad, no matter how burnt

856
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: out or drained we feel in the moment. The purpose

857
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: of gratitude in this context doesn't involve toxic positivity or

858
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: self delusion. Rather, Gratitude is a practice to tune your

859
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: attention to what you have so that you can then

860
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: go on to appreciate what future good stuff will come

861
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: your way. When you're lacking this skill, you'll forever be

862
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 2: focused on the bad stuff, and even when the next

863
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: gift arrives at your front door, you'll be worried that

864
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: it's in the wrong wrapping paper.

865
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: That's so perfect? Doesn't that feel I know you wrote

866
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: this several years ago, but doesn't that feel so precient

867
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: for right now?

868
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 2: It absolutely does it so doesn't. It Actually was something

869
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: that I was thinking about just this morning, Not this

870
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: specific passage, but the concept of how gratitude is the

871
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,959
Speaker 2: thing that is kind of like a fuel right now.

872
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Pouja, This was so lovely.

873
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: Thank you.

874
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: Bujlakshman is a psychiatrist and best selling author of the

875
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: book Real Self Care. The Bright Side is a production

876
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: of Hello, Sunshine and iHeart podcasts and is executive produced

877
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boyce. Production is by

878
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Abby Delk,

879
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: and Adrian Bain. Our production assistant is Joya putnoy Acasts.

880
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: Executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen Polo

881
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.

882
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: Ali Perry and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for

883
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. Our theme song is by Anna Stump and

884
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: Hamilton Lighthouser and until we meet again, keep looking on

885
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: the bright side, y'all.