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Speaker 1: Hi. This is new because of the coronavirus. I am

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Speaker 1: currently staying at home in Rome, where my wife serves

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Speaker 1: as the United States Ambassador of the Holy See. She's

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Speaker 1: leading the embassy and dealing with all the different changes

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Speaker 1: being brought about by the pandemic. To bring you this

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Speaker 1: episode this week, I'm recording from my home, so you

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Speaker 1: may notice a difference in audio quality. On this episode

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Speaker 1: of Nuts World, part two of our series looking at

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Speaker 1: the financial recovery of the United States amid the coronavirus pandemic.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss the lessons we can learn from Japan, South Korea, Singapore,

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and Taiwan and their economic recovery post coronavirus.

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Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my guest, Miss Yuki Tatsumi, Senior

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Speaker 1: Fellow and Co Director of the East Asia Program and

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Speaker 1: Director of the Japan Program at the Simpson Center. Missyuki

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Speaker 1: Tatsumi is the Senior Fellow and co director of the

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Speaker 1: East Asia Program and director of the Japan Program at

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Speaker 1: the Simpson Center. I am pleased to welcome her as

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Speaker 1: my guest. Marry mister speaker. Thank you again, it's an

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Speaker 1: honor to speak with you can we talk first about

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Speaker 1: what the Japanese response has been to COVID nineteen and

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Speaker 1: what's going on, because there seems to be some controversy

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Speaker 1: about whether the Japanese actually have done as remarkable a

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Speaker 1: job as the statistical data implies. What is your take

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Speaker 1: on that? That is a great question. I think it

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Speaker 1: is the issue that Japanese are grappling with now that

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Speaker 1: until around March twenty twenty, first Japanese government seemed to

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Speaker 1: have thought that they were pretty much successful in flattening

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Speaker 1: the curve, if you will. But then ever since they

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Speaker 1: have seen the second spike. I am the number of

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Speaker 1: people who have been tested positive for the COVID nineteen

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Speaker 1: right now, there has been a great debate within Japan

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Speaker 1: about why this second spike happened. Is that because perhaps

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Speaker 1: the government might have artificially suppressed the test case law

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Speaker 1: because of there are a couple of major diplomatic events

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Speaker 1: that the Japanese government were supposed to be hosting. One

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Speaker 1: was the Chinese President she State visit in April, and

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Speaker 1: the other one, of course, as we all know now

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Speaker 1: that it's been postponed, is the sumer Olympic Games in July.

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Speaker 1: Some people have pointed out that these test case began

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Speaker 1: to show that second spike right after the formal announcement

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Speaker 1: that comes from the IOC and Japanese government about the

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Speaker 1: postponement of the Olympics. But by and large, I think

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Speaker 1: there is a great sense of uncertainty amongst the Japanese people,

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Speaker 1: and particularly for the residents in the metropolitan Tokyo area,

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Speaker 1: because that particular area is a little bit smaller area

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Speaker 1: than the New York City where we're having an epicenter

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Speaker 1: of the coronavirus in the United States, and it frankly

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Speaker 1: has more people and a population density is just about

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Speaker 1: the same. So many people are particularly worried about what

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Speaker 1: they may see over the next week to two weeks

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Speaker 1: in Natokyo metropolitan area. Well, and you still have the

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Speaker 1: heavily packed trains and the use of public transportation. I

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Speaker 1: was there in Nagoya a couple of months ago, and

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Speaker 1: I was very impressed with how remarkable the train system is.

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Speaker 1: But it is a lot of people, and so in

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Speaker 1: a way to be a challenge I think for the

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Speaker 1: Japanese government to have the kind of restrictions that the

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Speaker 1: Chinese can do with their tutolitarian system that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: mister speaker. And then also I think this coronavirus and

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Speaker 1: how Japanese society and government has reacted or has not

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Speaker 1: been able to react, actually points to one of the

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Speaker 1: area that Japan is playing a ketchup game compared to

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Speaker 1: the United States, which is there is work culture in Japan.

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Speaker 1: That work at home culture is not exactly prevalent, yet

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Speaker 1: it's only limited to certain sectors like foreign companies, Japanese

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Speaker 1: outlet or it firms. Most traditional Japanese companies, they still

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Speaker 1: expect their employees to report to work every day, and

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Speaker 1: also government offices. So I am hearing from my friends

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Speaker 1: in Tokyo that those packed trains are now not as packed,

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Speaker 1: but still very crowded during the rush hour. Of course,

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Speaker 1: everybody's wearing face masks, but that still adds to people's

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Speaker 1: anxiety that in this great time of uncertainty, they're practically

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Speaker 1: risking their health every day just by commuting. So that

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Speaker 1: does add to the social anxiety in all of the

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Speaker 1: East Asian countries, I mean Japan, depending on what happens

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Speaker 1: the next few weeks, but at least up till now,

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Speaker 1: South Korea, where they initially had a very specific breakout

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Speaker 1: in a megachurch that had actually been doing missionary work

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Speaker 1: in Uhan, and then Taiwan Hong Kong, although there I

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Speaker 1: think it's reoccurred partly because it's so easy to cross

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Speaker 1: the border. And then Singapore, which seems to have done

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Speaker 1: a pretty aggressive job. Do you have any sense whether

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Speaker 1: these were countries are because they have been shaken by

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Speaker 1: H one N one and by stars were more organized

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Speaker 1: and more automatically aggressive in trying to contain a new virus.

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Speaker 1: I think when it comes to South Korea and Taiwan

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Speaker 1: and also Singapore, I would absolutely say there have been

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Speaker 1: prepared that lessons of H one N one really taught

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Speaker 1: them that this pandemic can happen. Once it happens, it

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Speaker 1: starts spreading fairly quickly, and with that population density that

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Speaker 1: those places have, government really has to go aggressive intervention

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Speaker 1: very early on. So in that context, how Taiwan has

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Speaker 1: reacted and largely very successful in containing the spread of

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Speaker 1: the virus across the country while preventing the panic among

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Speaker 1: the people is really remarkable. Do you believe the Chinese numbers?

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Speaker 1: I mean the degree to which they claim that there

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Speaker 1: are no new people getting the virus and that they've

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Speaker 1: stopped it. It's a little hard to believe, but I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious to be only feeling about it. But mister speaker,

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Speaker 1: I really don't trust any official number that the Chinese

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Speaker 1: government puts out frankly, and I have spoken to my

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Speaker 1: China scholar colleagues at my office too, and she also

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Speaker 1: does not believe any numbers. And we both agree that

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Speaker 1: those number is highly questionable because it largely leaves out

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Speaker 1: the numbers of the people who actually died before there

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Speaker 1: was any word about COVID nineteen early on. And then

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Speaker 1: also I don't think Chinese government statistics includes asymptomatic people

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Speaker 1: who has not been tested, so therefore there's no way

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Speaker 1: of knowing whether those people have virus or not. So

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Speaker 1: short answers, no, I do not believe that statistics can

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Speaker 1: I ask a totally different topic. Per second, we're trying

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Speaker 1: to think through how the US comes out of this economically.

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Speaker 1: When we found a defeat the virus, which I think

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Speaker 1: will happen by midsummer, Japan, when they had their bubble

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Speaker 1: break in the real estate bubble break on the necave

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Speaker 1: break eighty eight eighty nine, they had a very difficult

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Speaker 1: time going through the level of transition needed to relaunch

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Speaker 1: the economy. Do you think there are any lessons we

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Speaker 1: should learn from what the Japanese government did in trying

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Speaker 1: to adjust to re establish growth, because it seemed to

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Speaker 1: me as an outside observer, that they had a really

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Speaker 1: hard time recreating a kind of growth level might have

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Speaker 1: expected before nineteen eighty eight. One of the lessons that

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Speaker 1: the United States can learn from Japanese example is that

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Speaker 1: Japan as a country had a hard time was to

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Speaker 1: transition into a different economic model, that even after the

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Speaker 1: bubble bursted in the late nineteen eighties, they continue to

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Speaker 1: stick to their traditional model that they relied their economic

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Speaker 1: growth on, which is basically export based. The network of

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Speaker 1: firms have produced most of the incorporate growth, and that

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Speaker 1: not that much investment had been made into startups and

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Speaker 1: encouraging entrepreneurships and competitiveness. So, if there's any lessons to

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Speaker 1: be learned, I think the United States need to check

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Speaker 1: back against our desire to go back to something large

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Speaker 1: and stable, because I think in the time of a

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Speaker 1: certainty like this, I think what we do need to

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Speaker 1: see is to urge those entrepreneurship and of course I'm

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Speaker 1: no economists, or I'm not sure if the economists agree

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Speaker 1: with my answer, But then observing what the challenges that

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Speaker 1: Japanese had coming out of that recession, and in fact

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Speaker 1: I was still argued they quite haven't crawled out of

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Speaker 1: that yet, and one of the great challenge for them

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Speaker 1: is the influidity of the labor market. That people just

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Speaker 1: don't move from job to job, and that creates rigidity

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Speaker 1: in the market and also labor force. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's something that we should learn not to make those

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Speaker 1: kind of mistakes. I'm talking to you from Rome, where

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Speaker 1: my wife is the ambassador to the Vatican and we're

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Speaker 1: totally closed down. It's interesting because one of the challenges

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Speaker 1: in Italy was this is the second oldest country in

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Speaker 1: the world after Japan, and so this particular virus early

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Speaker 1: on was taking a devastating toll of older people. I

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Speaker 1: would think from the standpoint of Japan, there's an additional

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Speaker 1: reason to worry about COVID nineteen because as the oldest

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Speaker 1: country in the world, it has a very large population

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Speaker 1: that is capable of being affected negatively by the virus,

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Speaker 1: and it could lead to a much higher death rate

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Speaker 1: if the virus ever, truly got lose. Do you sense

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Speaker 1: any particular concern about that. There is a particular concern

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Speaker 1: about this cluster infection within the senior nursing homes. There's

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Speaker 1: definitely that, because Japan does have a number of those

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Speaker 1: nursing homes and the senior living for those high risk groups.

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Speaker 1: But I think by and large, so far there are

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Speaker 1: a couple of cases that popped up, but it's not

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Speaker 1: still nationwide. Those kind of breakouts have been able to

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Speaker 1: be contained within that nursing home without spreading out to

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Speaker 1: the larger community. But again, we still don't know what

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Speaker 1: happens in the Tokyo Metropathan area, so depending on how

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Speaker 1: that happens. Of course, there are a number of senior

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Speaker 1: pirates group people living in Tokyo Metropathan area. Many of

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Speaker 1: them live from home, not everybody the nursing home, so

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Speaker 1: that number could spike. But yes, there is a clear

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Speaker 1: awareness that senior population is particularly vulnerable to this virus.

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Speaker 1: Even if Japan was completely free of the virus, they

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Speaker 1: could not have held the Olympics this year because they'd

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Speaker 1: be inviting athletes from all over the planet and you're

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Speaker 1: almost bound to have people show up who are going

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Speaker 1: to test positive. Yes, that was actually one of the

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Speaker 1: larger concern that eventually led to Japanese government who decide

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Speaker 1: to postpone for the full year. But also the second

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Speaker 1: spike in positive test results that I mentioned earlier. Many

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Speaker 1: people also have pointed to the fact that that was

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Speaker 1: around the time that all the students who are studying

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Speaker 1: abroad starts coming home because the fact that perhaps those

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Speaker 1: people who are coming back from wherever they are might

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Speaker 1: have brought the virus, but they didn't know that, and

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Speaker 1: it was before Japan starts to really rigorously started testing

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Speaker 1: re entering Japanese at the airport, so many people could

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Speaker 1: have gone home without knowing that they were the carrier

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Speaker 1: or there were asymptomatic, and as a result around their

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Speaker 1: community the virus could have spread. So there definitely is

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Speaker 1: that concern. We were in South Korea when this first started,

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Speaker 1: and it was very interesting. They were just moving into

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Speaker 1: wearing masks at the airport, but every hotel we went

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Speaker 1: into they had somebody at the front door who would

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Speaker 1: check your temperature. Do you have any sense that they

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Speaker 1: have that kind of intensity and Tokyo of trying to

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Speaker 1: scream for potential carriers, not as of today, but then

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Speaker 1: many people have been pointing out that that's what the

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Speaker 1: government should have put in place even last month, and

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Speaker 1: then quite frankly, I think South Korea, one of the

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Speaker 1: successes that they have is because of those early aggressive measures.

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Speaker 1: And in Taiwan also, I think it is a very

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Speaker 1: similar situation where even if you're sick, you go to hospital,

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Speaker 1: if you don't have your face mask on, they won't

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Speaker 1: even let you into the hospital until you go to

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Speaker 1: the pharmacy right next to the hospital and buy a mask.

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Speaker 1: And then I think in Japan, hospitals have started to

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Speaker 1: institute those protocols that they have the pharmacy right at

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Speaker 1: the entrance area of the hospital that if you don't

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Speaker 1: have a face mask, they politely ask you to go

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Speaker 1: and purchase a mask and they put it on and

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Speaker 1: come back in. And also there always is a hand

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Speaker 1: sanitizer at the entrance of every building, and that was

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Speaker 1: even before where this coronavirus started, because Japan always have

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Speaker 1: a seasonal upbreaks of flu, so they're particularly keen on

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Speaker 1: those hand sanitizing throughout the year. So that's pretty much

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Speaker 1: a part of the a scenery in any Japanese office

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Speaker 1: building or any public building, but especially now I think

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Speaker 1: a hospitals are more aggressive into a face mask protocol.

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Speaker 1: And I've noticed Taiwan has done an amazing job. If

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Speaker 1: the numbers are activate, they have so few people who've

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Speaker 1: shown up positive that it's sort of remarkable. I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: that they must have really controlled people coming across the

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Speaker 1: straits from China. It's one of the more amazing things

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Speaker 1: about this whole cycle that we're in the middle of. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: I mean, given the regular volume of people going back

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Speaker 1: and forth, it is just remarkable. They did shut down

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Speaker 1: the border between Taiwan and mainland very early on, I

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Speaker 1: think as early as late January. And also they have

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Speaker 1: taken full of the initial very aggressive measures of making

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Speaker 1: sure that all the pharmacy has shipment of face mask,

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Speaker 1: for example. And they are highly networked society, and they

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Speaker 1: have created this Google map based app where any resident

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Speaker 1: can punch in their address and it pops up all

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Speaker 1: the pharmacy that near them, and that shows the actual

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Speaker 1: stocks of the face mask of each pharmacy so that

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Speaker 1: people don't waste trips. And then they also establish another

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Speaker 1: protocol where they also have the equivalent of our social

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Speaker 1: Security number, and they basically start rationing purchase of those

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Speaker 1: face masks attaching to your own social security numbers, so

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Speaker 1: you have to go in with your photo ID. And

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Speaker 1: there are only certain days of the week that any

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Speaker 1: resident in Taiwan can get their face masks or hand sanitizers,

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Speaker 1: and they put the amount limit per customer so that

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Speaker 1: they cannot hold. So they really trolled the supply of

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Speaker 1: those essentials from very very early on, and I think

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Speaker 1: that really contributed a great deal to the containment of

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Speaker 1: the byrus. Listen, I really appreciate your taking the time.

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Speaker 1: This has been really helpful and I'm really grateful you

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Speaker 1: who take the time to chat with us. Well, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much, mister speaker. He was an honor to

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Speaker 1: come on and chat with you. Thank you. Thank you

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Speaker 1: to my guest, Miss Yuki Tatsumi. You can read more

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Speaker 1: about what we can learn from Japan, South Korea, Singapore,

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong and Taiwan and their economic recovery on our

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Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by

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Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers,

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Speaker 1: and our producer is Garnsey Slam. The artwork for the

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Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the

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Speaker 1: team at Gingwish three sixty. Please email me with your

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Speaker 1: comment at newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying news World,

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Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate

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Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so

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Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. On the next

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Speaker 1: episode of Newsworld, Teddy Roosevelt was larger than nine. He

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Speaker 1: fought in the Spanish American War, charging up San Juan

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Speaker 1: Hill with his group of rough riders. He hunted buffalo

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Speaker 1: in the Dakota Territory and explored the wilds of Africa

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Speaker 1: and South America. He served as the twenty sixth President

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Speaker 1: of the United States at age forty two, the youngest

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Speaker 1: person in history. We'll look at his extraordinary life on

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Speaker 1: the next episode. I'm new Gangwig. This is news World.

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Speaker 1: Listen to the first chapter of my new novel, Shakedown,

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Speaker 1: available now at Gangwige three sixty dot com. Slash Shakedown