WEBVTT - Was Benjamin Franklin a fraud? 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.200 I'm Manny, I'm Noah. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.640 This is Devin and this is no such thing show 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.599 where we settle our dumb arguments in yours by actually 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:24.120 doing the research. On today's episode, was Benjamin Franklin a fraud. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.160 Founding father or frauding father? 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.280 Try that one. I'm gonna put that in there. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.000 A fraudulent father? 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.840 I have no There's no no such thing, no such 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:51.239 thing such, thank such, thank touch, thank so. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.560 Today's episode was actually inspired by our previous episode we 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.520 did last year. We did an episode titled Can You 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.120 Change the Mind of Conspiracy Theorists, And as part of 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.160 that we asked our listeners to call in with their 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.280 favorite conspiracy theory that they believed. So as part of 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.440 that process, we got a call from one of Manny's 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.399 friends named Kelsey. 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.520 I think that Benjamin Franklin was a grifter with a 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.520 great pr team. I live in Philadelphia, so his image 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.560 is everywhere. To a degree I find suspicious. He's credited 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.480 with inventing basically everything from electricity to buifocals to modern 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.880 day fire insurance. And I don't believe that one little 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.720 guy achieved all of this alone. He was never actually president, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.959 but was somehow always there as an advisor and Elon 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.600 Musk kind of fraudster. 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.199 The ideas guy with a big check book. 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.160 I just feel like it's extremely possible that everyone hated 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.679 him and he was a bad hang, but his reputation 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.000 has been scrubbed clean. Wow. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:50.800 I like that it's a bad hang. It's like everyone's 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:52.920 hanging out with him. I feel like that he'd the 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.080 opposite where he's probably a good hand, maybe not doing something. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:57.800 Yeah, I would imagine a lot of people want it 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.320 to be around him, you know, because of the reputation 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:02.960 he had built, fraudulent or not. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:08.720 Yeah, you know, well that was a very brief shirt, 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.880 you know. So I called up Kelsey to hear more 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.399 of her thoughts. So as she mentioned, one big thing 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.200 to note is that Kelsey lives in Philadelphia, so she 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.079 is definitely, I think, seeing more of Benjamin Franklin related 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.600 things than we are. Because when we got this. I 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.160 remember this, when you were editing this episode, Manny, it 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.040 was like, I don't really think about Benjamin Franklin at all. Yeah, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:35.320 that was. 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:36.679 My thought too. I was like, how did you even 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:38.760 come up with that? Like he's even talking about this guy? 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.160 Yeah, I had never thought about that theory before, so 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.000 now I'm happy to hear more. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.360 Well, we found out that you are on a group 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.120 chat with Kelsey where she sends you photos every time 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.720 she sees something Benjamin Franklin related. And I, you know, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.880 I spoke to her a couple of weeks ago. Now, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.320 so we have our own son of group chat because 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.240 it's only two people. But she now sends me stuff 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.679 that she comes across that are that are Benjamin and 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.560 it is. It's a decent mount. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:10.119 It's a lot. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.400 If you're in Philadelphia, it seems like, you know, walking 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.320 around you will run into a Benjamin Fine. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.040 And this is only the stuff she's sending. You know, 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.640 I'm imagining she's not sending every single Benjamin Franklin thing 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.760 that she's coming across. So two things Kelsey wanted us 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.000 to get to the bottom of. It's number one, why 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.919 does it feel like Benjamin Franklin hasn't had a proper reckoning. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:35.280 So in twenty twenty, we were really examining historical figures. 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.040 And especially the presidents. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.000 Yes, especially presidents. You know, Obama was being called the 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.160 war criminal. We were talking a lot about Washington. So 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.440 why wasn't Benjamin Franklin a part of that conversation. Yeah, 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:53.760 and then she also wanted us to investigate just the 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.800 scope of what he's been credited with inventing. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:06.320 I think just like the huge, like broad brushstrokes of 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.920 the things he's credited for coming up with or inventing 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:14.080 feel like so categorically like all encompassing. Like I've just 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.279 heard like he invented the concept of insurance and I'm like, what, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.279 like did any single person do that? And also like 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.280 that that's like such a big claim. And then same 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:29.320 with like firefighting, like modern firefighting, and like bifocals and electricity. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.000 Like I'm sure he was maybe like a savant like 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.440 genius guy who came up with some stuff, but like 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.360 I think, like the lack of specificity is what makes 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.960 me suspicious or like, yeah, it just feels so big. 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:53.600 So after that episode aired where Kelsey you know, ripped 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.160 apart Benjamin or Franklin, another friend at a pod, Rich 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.159 was texting us because he's a big Benjamin frank was 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.120 sensed well, which I didn't know. You know, Rich was 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:06.800 so down for many. 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.440 No, but he's a history buff, but he was a 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.279 proud American. He's a patriot. 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:18.080 He's a patriot, but Rich he was very upset. So Noah, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.680 you had a conversation with Rich just to find out 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.800 why he was so irate. Yeah, you know. 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.400 Rich his main point was like, it's not fair to say, 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.520 you know, Ben Franklin is basically what we would see 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.560 as you know elon Musk today, he was actually kind 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.760 of doing this stuff. Mainly he's pointing to his diplomacy. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.559 He you know, made the alliance with the French, which 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.800 helped the American Revolution, of course, and you know, just 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.520 generally his Rich's main point is like, you wouldn't send 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.400 him around to all these things, these high stakes positions 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.680 if he's a fraud, he's got to be doing something, yeah, 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:52.680 or at least be well liked and trusted. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.560 In some sense, a fraud would put themselves in as 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.719 you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, you go, how would 0:05:58.720 --> 0:05:59.160 you get here? 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.640 Especially he's not in the president, so it's like reason 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.160 to just have this outside you know, outsider figure for 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.800 lack of a better word, Yeah, to do this, like 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.280 to trust that stuff with him, There's got to be 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:10.800 something there. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.720 I think the thing about Franklin that this caller seemed 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.400 skeptical of was his celebrity. I mean, like the idea 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.279 of a celebrity is kind of fairly modern, but in 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.520 terms of the eighteenth century, he was as close to 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.159 a celebrity as you could get. The thing is is 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:38.479 that he used that to his causes benefit In some way, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.960 he was like a marketer of the American Revolution as 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.840 much as he was a diplomat and a leading politician. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:55.080 He started arguing for colonial unity like decades before even 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.520 the Declaration of Independence, which by the way, he also 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.839 helped Jefferson draft. So not only did he help draft 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.040 the Declaration of Independence, he also helped draft the Treaty 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.720 of Paris, which ended the war, so that set the 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.760 terms for what the country was going to look like. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:17.240 And he also played an important role in the Constitutional Convention. 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.480 So I mean, look, he's there at the Declaration of Independence, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.560 the treaty that ends the war and helps establish what 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.280 the United States is going to be, and then the Constitution. 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.640 I don't know what more you could want them with gut. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.240 Did he do some like flamboyant public image stuff, Yes, 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.520 of course, but he was using that to his advantage. 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:39.520 He was an. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.800 Interesting guy, I mean, like someone like John Adams, for example, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.720 people usually thought he was like boring, kind of goofy, annoying, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:55.600 but like with Franklin, people loved him. 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.560 And you can see easily how our two friends here 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.240 their ideas are not as to each other, but you 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.880 can also see some areas where they're not necessarily Like 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.440 I think Kelsey's main gripe seems to be all the 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.840 things attributed to him in terms of like innovation, I guess. 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.600 And then you know, Rich isn't necessarily talking about that 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.440 aspect of his life. He's just talking about how much 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.320 of an integral role he played in kind of the 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.520 founding of the country. I want to see how we 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:22.880 can marry these two ideas. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:23.440 Hmm. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.160 Yeah, and the personality of it, I think is key too. 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.920 That's definitely what led to him being iconic in the 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.360 sense of being all over Philadelphia. Yeah, and then that 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.800 also is what Rich is telling is what led to 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.000 him being the one who trusted to kind of convince 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.800 people to come to our side and that sort of thing. Yeah, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.920 you know, like you're saying, they might not be as 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:45.600 at odds as we think as. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.559 They think they think. So we are going to find 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.720 out if Kelsey is right? Is Benjamin Franklin fraud? Or 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.559 is rich right? Is he our greatest founding father? After 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.960 the break, we'll find out does Benjamin Franklin actually suck? 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.120 O'm Manny Noah, and. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.640 I am Devin. We are joined in the studio by 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.560 doctor Claire Aubyn. Claire is a writer and historian at Yale. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.280 She also has her own podcast, which you may already know, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.160 called This Guy Sucked, which was named one of Apple 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.559 Podcasts Best New Shows of twenty twenty five. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.720 In some great company, How Along with You? 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.000 Yeah, that's literally how we know. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.040 Each and we love this show because it's a show 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.840 for haters, and we love the hate on this show. Claire, 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.160 can you give us just your elevator pitch for This 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:51.800 Guy Sucked? 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:52.760 Yeah? 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.720 So every week I bring in a new scholar, a 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.320 new academic. Occasionally we have like a comedian or do 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.840 a collaboration with someone else. But but I bring someone 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.000 who is an expert on a person in to tell 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.560 us why they don't like that person basically, and why 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.400 make an argument for the audience for like they shouldn't 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.200 like that person either. So we've spanned like a huge 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.520 amount of historical time period. We talk about people who 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.800 are very famous, people who are not famous but should 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.120 be for bad stuff. The argument being that, whether you 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.640 realize it or not, historical figures have negatively impacted your 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.160 life today and you should not like them, and that 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.280 you can be interested in them without liking them. 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.720 Also, yeah, that's good, which we'll get into. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.520 We're familiar with the concept people who should be famous 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:35.959 but aren't. 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:37.439 We're getting. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:41.760 Us. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.680 So unfortunately, you don't want to be the subject. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.520 I will say, I would say, you know, come on, 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:55.160 but that is actually in fact, what's happening. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.920 All right, Claire. So to recap, we have you here 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.280 because we chatted with two friends at a pod our, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.599 friend Kelsey who thinks Benjamin Franklin is a fraud. A 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.680 friend Rich who thinks Benjamin Franklin is a national treasure 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.680 maybe underrated. So we're going to hand off the episode 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.720 to you at this point as our historian, to sort 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:19.800 of break it down what's the truth about the Benjamin Franklin. 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.680 So part of this is a little bit complicated because 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.959 the two arguments that he's a fraud and that he's 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:27.920 important are not. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.079 In opposition to one another. 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.040 So it was funny trying to figure out what the 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.160 answer to this is, because like one could be a 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:39.000 fraud and also important and like memorable at the same time, 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.800 and like a contributor in some other way. And I 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.720 think there are plenty of historical examples and living examples. 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:46.000 That we have of that. 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.280 So I think they're not actually arguing at cross purposes, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.960 Like they're not against each other in this. They just 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.560 have different conceptions of why people remember him. But I 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.520 did come up with what I see as the questions 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.360 that they were asking. I tried to summarize their questions 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:06.439 and find answers to them. 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:07.480 So questions are. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.560 Like did he have haters in his day? Would he 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.120 be taken more seriously if he had been president? Was 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:14.800 he stealing credit from other people? 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:15.080 Like? 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.600 They asked a lot of I think really interesting questions 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.280 that help us to figure out like how we think 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.400 about celebrity and history and. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:23.280 All kinds of stuff like that. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.080 And then the one that I found really interesting is 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.400 what are the bad things about him? 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.480 Yeah? There are some bad things about him. 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.640 You know, if we want to cancel him, will we 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:34.040 pull up? 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:34.680 Yeah? 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.480 We shouldn't we talk about talk about his accomplishments. I 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.280 feel like, yeah, maybe we start. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.440 And then we get to this. Let's start what's real. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:49.319 Yeah, well, what do you know about him as his accomplishments, Yeah. 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:54.360 Sure, discovering electricity, Declaration of Independence, the American Revolution. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:59.760 Yes, he's at the Constitution. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:01.800 Yeah, I didn't know. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.720 That about the diplomat, like he was building around in France. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.160 I talked to rich So yet he was crucial in 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.400 getting the French alliance, which helped back us up during 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.480 the American Wow. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.040 Yeah, on the what is it the one bill? 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.280 Mm hmmm, yeah, pretty famously. 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:21.960 I've never seen all. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:22.280 Of those. 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:31.320 Smaller bills, Penny, who's this? 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.680 Yeah, so most of these things at least have like 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.480 a grain of truth for them. He definitely is, for example, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.959 instrumental in securing this French alliance. That's right, A lot 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.199 of these things are true. He does work on electricity, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.240 but I will say. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.439 Work on electric discovery. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:51.240 Well. No. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.800 So one of the things I find kind of interesting 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.599 about this is the idea of like whether he was 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.920 stealing credit from other people his inventions or not, because 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.520 as a name, yeah, you know, the issue here is 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.240 really just kind of like oversimplification. So no, he doesn't 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.080 steal credit from people. But yes, his relationship to the 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:15.839 things he invents and does and science are oversimplified. Sometimes 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.840 he kind of fails to credit his collaborators on things 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.760 in this sort of classic inventor scenario. 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.160 You know who does that current day? 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:26.920 This is not ready. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:28.840 I don't think you think this person would come up 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:33.000 in this conversation Travis Scott famously, he needs to pretend 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.640 that he does everything by himself, to the point where 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.040 when I worked at Genius the music company, we would 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.120 do these series where we'd talk to the collaborators a 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:43.720 big famous people. Right, it's hard to talk to the 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.680 big famous people. It's easier to talk to a producer 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.480 or a music video director. And he would threaten to 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.960 sue us if we did videos like they had to 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.000 take a video down because they worked with I think 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.960 it was either a music video he did or a producer. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.480 He didn't like the idea that the audience would see 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.120 that he wasn't the only person doing it. Oh, he 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.400 didn't like the idea of being seen as a collaborator. 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.320 He wants to be seen as like the mastermound in 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.960 a brainchild lither thing. Yeah we had to take a video. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:16.640 Down, Yeah, for sure, also first time probably someone has 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:21.320 brought up Travis Scott and Benjamin Franklin type of guy. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:28.000 So like breaking the ground every day, this is what 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.960 podcasts are for. Yeah, but actually, yeah, that does fit 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:38.440 in part because one of the issues around Franklin's legacy 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.720 is that he gets credited with being the sole creator 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.920 of things that are actually sort of transnational global ideas. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.160 So the idea of electricity and lightning being somehow related 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.400 to electricity predates him. He's not the person to come 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.640 up with this, in part because like ideas don't exist 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.280 in vacuums. The lone genius scientist guy who is like, 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.760 I've invented electricity isn't real. That's not actually how scientist 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:04.320 or how innovation. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.800 We wouldn't figured it out there was that one guy. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.400 Yeah, Like science is incremental, innovation is incremental. There's a 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.120 sort of network of what we would call experimental philosophers 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.880 and experimental scientists, although they're not really thinking of themselves 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.560 as scientists necessarily at this moment, because all these things 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.040 are kind of mixed together, Like you're a philosopher and 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.080 a scientist and a doctor and whatever altogether, you're just 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.960 engaging in sort of questions about the world and trying 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:36.080 to answer them much like yourselves, you, Travis Scott, and Benjacinara, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.800 and he is part of this network. We know that 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.840 he's traveling to Europe fairly regularly and coming back and 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.720 doing stuff. So I imagine that he exists in this 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.560 space where he's coming up with things by himself is. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.880 Just not real or possible. 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.720 We know, for example, that the lightning rod is based 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.600 in part on European theories around electricity and lightning. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:04.520 There is a Czech. 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.720 Priest named Prokop Divish who is also working on grounded 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.920 lightning rods at the same time. His grounded lightning rod 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.520 happens about three years after Franklin's, but they're working with 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.359 the same ideas. So that's not to say that he 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.520 doesn't do these incredible things, but like he doesn't do 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.760 them by himself, and he doesn't do them in a 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.280 way that no one else is considering approaching them because 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.760 science is also a very messy and very iterative process, 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.199 Like you have to try things over and over and 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.800 over again and figure them out. And if he's the 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.160 first guy to do in America, like that's great, but 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:38.800 he's not the only. 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:41.520 Capable of it either. 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it seems like he's benefited from essentially 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:50.000 like the elementary school curriculum, right, Like the oversimplification happens 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.600 because they're teaching this to kids, so he's getting a 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.720 lot of credit from I mean, I didn't read a 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.520 single thing about him after elementary school. I think so 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.800 if I had, I guess the teachings would have been 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:01.920 a little bit more nuanced. 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.920 I'm worried about your high school education, but but I 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.440 do wonder how much it is is like you said, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.560 many like the over simplification, like teaching kids things, you know, 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.240 like even like Rose Parks wasn't the first person, you know, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.040 to not get up. She also wasn't seated in the 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.000 front of the bus. You know, like there's there's stuff 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.800 like that. There's a nuance cell out of stuff that 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:25.920 when you're a kid, it's like, you know, can just 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.840 fit in a picture book. It's like Benjamin Franklin Kite 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.600 get the gist electricity. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.280 Right, You're not going to tell the kid about all 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:34.719 the other collaborators. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.120 Yes, exactly, about Czech priests broke up division. 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.399 We didn't need to go to Prague and see whether. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.560 I mean, and that's kind of generally a problem with 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.160 how people understand historical figures, right, Like the real problem 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.520 is once again the American education system. Unfortunately, in terms 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.879 of how we like satisfying endings. 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.120 We like people who said satisfy curiosity. 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.680 We like people who we can hold up and say 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.400 this is the guy, because history itself is a lot 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.240 messier and more complicated than that, and it's harder. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:10.639 To grapple with. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.640 So these simplifications really benefit us in terms of our 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.800 ability to understand things. They're often though not really that 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:23.040 true or that real, and the issue is further down 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.320 the line when you're like, ah, well, this is the 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.520 thing I know about Benjamin Franklin and someone has to say, 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:30.480 I guess, well, not so much. 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.959 That Kelsey's main gripe, aside from kind of the Philly 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.720 centric angle and like the advertisement use, which is obviously 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.439 way far. Afield was kind of like, how could this 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.879 one guy do all this thing? Yeah, yeah, we're but 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.440 to me, this is my simple explanations. I think about 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.639 someone like da Vinci, like a renaissance man sort of thing. 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.359 I'm just thinking, you know, hundreds of years ago, not 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.000 that many people were educated, so to me, it doesn't 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.359 seem that crazy that the few people that were highly 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.639 educated would know about a lot of things and be 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:05.560 working in a lot of different fields, whether that be 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.360 you know, science, electricity or politics or whatever, or art 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.159 in you know, Franklin, he was writing, he did almanacs, 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.359 these sorts of things. So it's not that crazy that 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.040 one guy would kind of have his hand in all 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.560 these different pots. Yeah, I mean, does that make sense? 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.040 Yeah, I mean, like fully, one hundred percent, it makes sense. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.680 The way that we conceive of like sciences and the 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:32.040 humanities or art as these separate categories is relatively recent. 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:38.000 Like historically speaking, the man who is educated is educated 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.440 in all of these fields, and they're not seen as 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.159 necessarily separable. So you can say like, yes, I've learned history, 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.960 Yes I've learned science or art or whatever. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:48.359 But a person who. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.040 Is educated as well rounded and interested in all of 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.480 these things. So like what I mentioned before about this 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.960 sort of philosopher or physicist whatever guy, that's very normal 0:20:58.600 --> 0:20:59.920 because that is part. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.240 Of being educated and interested in the world. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.360 The way that we've kind of siloed these things as 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:09.040 totally separate is relatively recent, because now we've focus in 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.520 on like becoming an expert in one single thing, becoming 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.480 the person we in part because our approach to things 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.760 like invention has narrowed further and further because we're getting 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:20.520 we're progressing and. 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:21.800 Yeah, we're getting more admits. 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.680 Yeah, so you can be like, I do this one thing. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.119 So a lot of these things really benefit or draw 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:34.160 from each other. So the Da Vinci Renaissance man style guy, 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.960 it was a much more common person until recently, and 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.800 like a thing that proves how good you are and 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.280 how educated you are and how intelligent you are that 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.760