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Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah.

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Speaker 2: This is Devin and this is no such thing show

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Speaker 2: where we settle our dumb arguments in yours by actually

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Speaker 2: doing the research. On today's episode, was Benjamin Franklin a fraud.

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Speaker 1: Founding father or frauding father?

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Speaker 2: Try that one. I'm gonna put that in there.

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Speaker 3: A fraudulent father?

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Speaker 4: I have no There's no no such thing, no such

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Speaker 4: thing such, thank such, thank touch, thank so.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode was actually inspired by our previous episode we

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Speaker 2: did last year. We did an episode titled Can You

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Speaker 2: Change the Mind of Conspiracy Theorists, And as part of

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Speaker 2: that we asked our listeners to call in with their

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Speaker 2: favorite conspiracy theory that they believed. So as part of

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Speaker 2: that process, we got a call from one of Manny's

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Speaker 2: friends named Kelsey.

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Speaker 5: I think that Benjamin Franklin was a grifter with a

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Speaker 5: great pr team. I live in Philadelphia, so his image

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Speaker 5: is everywhere. To a degree I find suspicious. He's credited

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Speaker 5: with inventing basically everything from electricity to buifocals to modern

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Speaker 5: day fire insurance. And I don't believe that one little

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Speaker 5: guy achieved all of this alone. He was never actually president,

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Speaker 5: but was somehow always there as an advisor and Elon

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Speaker 5: Musk kind of fraudster.

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Speaker 6: The ideas guy with a big check book.

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Speaker 5: I just feel like it's extremely possible that everyone hated

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Speaker 5: him and he was a bad hang, but his reputation

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Speaker 5: has been scrubbed clean. Wow.

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Speaker 1: I like that it's a bad hang. It's like everyone's

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Speaker 1: hanging out with him. I feel like that he'd the

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Speaker 1: opposite where he's probably a good hand, maybe not doing something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would imagine a lot of people want it

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Speaker 3: to be around him, you know, because of the reputation

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Speaker 3: he had built, fraudulent or not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, well that was a very brief shirt,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I called up Kelsey to hear more

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Speaker 2: of her thoughts. So as she mentioned, one big thing

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Speaker 2: to note is that Kelsey lives in Philadelphia, so she

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Speaker 2: is definitely, I think, seeing more of Benjamin Franklin related

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Speaker 2: things than we are. Because when we got this. I

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Speaker 2: remember this, when you were editing this episode, Manny, it

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Speaker 2: was like, I don't really think about Benjamin Franklin at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was.

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Speaker 1: My thought too. I was like, how did you even

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Speaker 1: come up with that? Like he's even talking about this guy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had never thought about that theory before, so

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Speaker 3: now I'm happy to hear more.

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Speaker 2: Well, we found out that you are on a group

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Speaker 2: chat with Kelsey where she sends you photos every time

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Speaker 2: she sees something Benjamin Franklin related. And I, you know,

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Speaker 2: I spoke to her a couple of weeks ago. Now,

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Speaker 2: so we have our own son of group chat because

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Speaker 2: it's only two people. But she now sends me stuff

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Speaker 2: that she comes across that are that are Benjamin and

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Speaker 2: it is. It's a decent mount.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot.

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Speaker 3: If you're in Philadelphia, it seems like, you know, walking

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Speaker 3: around you will run into a Benjamin Fine.

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Speaker 2: And this is only the stuff she's sending. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm imagining she's not sending every single Benjamin Franklin thing

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Speaker 2: that she's coming across. So two things Kelsey wanted us

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Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of. It's number one, why

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Speaker 2: does it feel like Benjamin Franklin hasn't had a proper reckoning.

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Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty, we were really examining historical figures.

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Speaker 3: And especially the presidents.

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Speaker 2: Yes, especially presidents. You know, Obama was being called the

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Speaker 2: war criminal. We were talking a lot about Washington. So

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Speaker 2: why wasn't Benjamin Franklin a part of that conversation. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then she also wanted us to investigate just the

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Speaker 2: scope of what he's been credited with inventing.

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Speaker 5: I think just like the huge, like broad brushstrokes of

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Speaker 5: the things he's credited for coming up with or inventing

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Speaker 5: feel like so categorically like all encompassing. Like I've just

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Speaker 5: heard like he invented the concept of insurance and I'm like, what,

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Speaker 5: like did any single person do that? And also like

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Speaker 5: that that's like such a big claim. And then same

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Speaker 5: with like firefighting, like modern firefighting, and like bifocals and electricity.

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Speaker 5: Like I'm sure he was maybe like a savant like

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Speaker 5: genius guy who came up with some stuff, but like

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Speaker 5: I think, like the lack of specificity is what makes

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Speaker 5: me suspicious or like, yeah, it just feels so big.

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Speaker 2: So after that episode aired where Kelsey you know, ripped

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Speaker 2: apart Benjamin or Franklin, another friend at a pod, Rich

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Speaker 2: was texting us because he's a big Benjamin frank was

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Speaker 2: sensed well, which I didn't know. You know, Rich was

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Speaker 2: so down for many.

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Speaker 1: No, but he's a history buff, but he was a

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Speaker 1: proud American. He's a patriot.

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Speaker 2: He's a patriot, but Rich he was very upset. So Noah,

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Speaker 2: you had a conversation with Rich just to find out

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Speaker 2: why he was so irate. Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: Rich his main point was like, it's not fair to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, Ben Franklin is basically what we would see

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Speaker 1: as you know elon Musk today, he was actually kind

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Speaker 1: of doing this stuff. Mainly he's pointing to his diplomacy.

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Speaker 1: He you know, made the alliance with the French, which

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Speaker 1: helped the American Revolution, of course, and you know, just

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Speaker 1: generally his Rich's main point is like, you wouldn't send

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Speaker 1: him around to all these things, these high stakes positions

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Speaker 1: if he's a fraud, he's got to be doing something, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or at least be well liked and trusted.

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Speaker 2: In some sense, a fraud would put themselves in as

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, you go, how would

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Speaker 2: you get here?

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Speaker 1: Especially he's not in the president, so it's like reason

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Speaker 1: to just have this outside you know, outsider figure for

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Speaker 1: lack of a better word, Yeah, to do this, like

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Speaker 1: to trust that stuff with him, There's got to be

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Speaker 1: something there.

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Speaker 7: I think the thing about Franklin that this caller seemed

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Speaker 7: skeptical of was his celebrity. I mean, like the idea

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Speaker 7: of a celebrity is kind of fairly modern, but in

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Speaker 7: terms of the eighteenth century, he was as close to

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Speaker 7: a celebrity as you could get. The thing is is

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Speaker 7: that he used that to his causes benefit In some way,

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Speaker 7: he was like a marketer of the American Revolution as

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Speaker 7: much as he was a diplomat and a leading politician.

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Speaker 7: He started arguing for colonial unity like decades before even

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Speaker 7: the Declaration of Independence, which by the way, he also

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Speaker 7: helped Jefferson draft. So not only did he help draft

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Speaker 7: the Declaration of Independence, he also helped draft the Treaty

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Speaker 7: of Paris, which ended the war, so that set the

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Speaker 7: terms for what the country was going to look like.

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Speaker 7: And he also played an important role in the Constitutional Convention.

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Speaker 7: So I mean, look, he's there at the Declaration of Independence,

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Speaker 7: the treaty that ends the war and helps establish what

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Speaker 7: the United States is going to be, and then the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what more you could want them with gut.

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Speaker 7: Did he do some like flamboyant public image stuff, Yes,

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Speaker 7: of course, but he was using that to his advantage.

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Speaker 2: He was an.

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Speaker 7: Interesting guy, I mean, like someone like John Adams, for example,

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Speaker 7: people usually thought he was like boring, kind of goofy, annoying,

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Speaker 7: but like with Franklin, people loved him.

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Speaker 3: And you can see easily how our two friends here

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Speaker 3: their ideas are not as to each other, but you

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Speaker 3: can also see some areas where they're not necessarily Like

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Speaker 3: I think Kelsey's main gripe seems to be all the

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Speaker 3: things attributed to him in terms of like innovation, I guess.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, Rich isn't necessarily talking about that

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Speaker 3: aspect of his life. He's just talking about how much

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Speaker 3: of an integral role he played in kind of the

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Speaker 3: founding of the country. I want to see how we

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Speaker 3: can marry these two ideas.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the personality of it, I think is key too.

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Speaker 1: That's definitely what led to him being iconic in the

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Speaker 1: sense of being all over Philadelphia. Yeah, and then that

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Speaker 1: also is what Rich is telling is what led to

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Speaker 1: him being the one who trusted to kind of convince

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Speaker 1: people to come to our side and that sort of thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you're saying, they might not be as

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Speaker 1: at odds as we think as.

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Speaker 2: They think they think. So we are going to find

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Speaker 2: out if Kelsey is right? Is Benjamin Franklin fraud? Or

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Speaker 2: is rich right? Is he our greatest founding father? After

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Speaker 2: the break, we'll find out does Benjamin Franklin actually suck?

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Speaker 3: O'm Manny Noah, and.

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Speaker 2: I am Devin. We are joined in the studio by

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Speaker 2: doctor Claire Aubyn. Claire is a writer and historian at Yale.

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Speaker 2: She also has her own podcast, which you may already know,

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Speaker 2: called This Guy Sucked, which was named one of Apple

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Speaker 2: Podcasts Best New Shows of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: In some great company, How Along with You?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, that's literally how we know.

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Speaker 2: Each and we love this show because it's a show

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Speaker 2: for haters, and we love the hate on this show. Claire,

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Speaker 2: can you give us just your elevator pitch for This

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Speaker 2: Guy Sucked?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: So every week I bring in a new scholar, a

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Speaker 8: new academic. Occasionally we have like a comedian or do

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Speaker 8: a collaboration with someone else. But but I bring someone

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Speaker 8: who is an expert on a person in to tell

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Speaker 8: us why they don't like that person basically, and why

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Speaker 8: make an argument for the audience for like they shouldn't

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Speaker 8: like that person either. So we've spanned like a huge

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Speaker 8: amount of historical time period. We talk about people who

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Speaker 8: are very famous, people who are not famous but should

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Speaker 8: be for bad stuff. The argument being that, whether you

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Speaker 8: realize it or not, historical figures have negatively impacted your

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Speaker 8: life today and you should not like them, and that

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Speaker 8: you can be interested in them without liking them.

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Speaker 6: Also, yeah, that's good, which we'll get into.

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Speaker 3: We're familiar with the concept people who should be famous

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Speaker 3: but aren't.

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Speaker 1: We're getting.

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Speaker 2: Us.

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Speaker 6: So unfortunately, you don't want to be the subject.

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Speaker 8: I will say, I would say, you know, come on,

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Speaker 8: but that is actually in fact, what's happening.

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Speaker 2: All right, Claire. So to recap, we have you here

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Speaker 2: because we chatted with two friends at a pod our,

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Speaker 2: friend Kelsey who thinks Benjamin Franklin is a fraud. A

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Speaker 2: friend Rich who thinks Benjamin Franklin is a national treasure

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Speaker 2: maybe underrated. So we're going to hand off the episode

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Speaker 2: to you at this point as our historian, to sort

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Speaker 2: of break it down what's the truth about the Benjamin Franklin.

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Speaker 8: So part of this is a little bit complicated because

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Speaker 8: the two arguments that he's a fraud and that he's

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Speaker 8: important are not.

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Speaker 6: In opposition to one another.

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Speaker 8: So it was funny trying to figure out what the

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Speaker 8: answer to this is, because like one could be a

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Speaker 8: fraud and also important and like memorable at the same time,

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Speaker 8: and like a contributor in some other way. And I

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Speaker 8: think there are plenty of historical examples and living examples.

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Speaker 6: That we have of that.

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Speaker 8: So I think they're not actually arguing at cross purposes,

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Speaker 8: Like they're not against each other in this. They just

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Speaker 8: have different conceptions of why people remember him. But I

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Speaker 8: did come up with what I see as the questions

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Speaker 8: that they were asking. I tried to summarize their questions

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Speaker 8: and find answers to them.

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Speaker 6: So questions are.

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Speaker 8: Like did he have haters in his day? Would he

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Speaker 8: be taken more seriously if he had been president? Was

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Speaker 8: he stealing credit from other people?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 8: They asked a lot of I think really interesting questions

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Speaker 8: that help us to figure out like how we think

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Speaker 8: about celebrity and history and.

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Speaker 6: All kinds of stuff like that.

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Speaker 8: And then the one that I found really interesting is

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Speaker 8: what are the bad things about him?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? There are some bad things about him.

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Speaker 2: You know, if we want to cancel him, will we

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Speaker 2: pull up?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: We shouldn't we talk about talk about his accomplishments. I

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Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, maybe we start.

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Speaker 2: And then we get to this. Let's start what's real.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, well, what do you know about him as his accomplishments, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sure, discovering electricity, Declaration of Independence, the American Revolution.

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Speaker 8: Yes, he's at the Constitution.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: That about the diplomat, like he was building around in France.

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Speaker 1: I talked to rich So yet he was crucial in

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Speaker 1: getting the French alliance, which helped back us up during

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Speaker 1: the American Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, on the what is it the one bill?

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Speaker 6: Mm hmmm, yeah, pretty famously.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen all.

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Speaker 2: Of those.

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Speaker 3: Smaller bills, Penny, who's this?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so most of these things at least have like

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Speaker 8: a grain of truth for them. He definitely is, for example,

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Speaker 8: instrumental in securing this French alliance. That's right, A lot

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Speaker 8: of these things are true. He does work on electricity,

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Speaker 8: but I will say.

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Speaker 2: Work on electric discovery.

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Speaker 4: Well. No.

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Speaker 8: So one of the things I find kind of interesting

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Speaker 8: about this is the idea of like whether he was

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Speaker 8: stealing credit from other people his inventions or not, because

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Speaker 8: as a name, yeah, you know, the issue here is

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Speaker 8: really just kind of like oversimplification. So no, he doesn't

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Speaker 8: steal credit from people. But yes, his relationship to the

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Speaker 8: things he invents and does and science are oversimplified. Sometimes

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Speaker 8: he kind of fails to credit his collaborators on things

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Speaker 8: in this sort of classic inventor scenario.

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Speaker 2: You know who does that current day?

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Speaker 6: This is not ready.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you think this person would come up

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Speaker 2: in this conversation Travis Scott famously, he needs to pretend

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Speaker 2: that he does everything by himself, to the point where

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Speaker 2: when I worked at Genius the music company, we would

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Speaker 2: do these series where we'd talk to the collaborators a

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Speaker 2: big famous people. Right, it's hard to talk to the

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Speaker 2: big famous people. It's easier to talk to a producer

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Speaker 2: or a music video director. And he would threaten to

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Speaker 2: sue us if we did videos like they had to

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Speaker 2: take a video down because they worked with I think

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Speaker 2: it was either a music video he did or a producer.

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Speaker 2: He didn't like the idea that the audience would see

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Speaker 2: that he wasn't the only person doing it. Oh, he

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Speaker 2: didn't like the idea of being seen as a collaborator.

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Speaker 2: He wants to be seen as like the mastermound in

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Speaker 2: a brainchild lither thing. Yeah we had to take a video.

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Speaker 8: Down, Yeah, for sure, also first time probably someone has

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Speaker 8: brought up Travis Scott and Benjamin Franklin type of guy.

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Speaker 8: So like breaking the ground every day, this is what

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Speaker 8: podcasts are for. Yeah, but actually, yeah, that does fit

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Speaker 8: in part because one of the issues around Franklin's legacy

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Speaker 8: is that he gets credited with being the sole creator

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Speaker 8: of things that are actually sort of transnational global ideas.

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Speaker 8: So the idea of electricity and lightning being somehow related

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Speaker 8: to electricity predates him. He's not the person to come

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Speaker 8: up with this, in part because like ideas don't exist

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Speaker 8: in vacuums. The lone genius scientist guy who is like,

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Speaker 8: I've invented electricity isn't real. That's not actually how scientist

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Speaker 8: or how innovation.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't figured it out there was that one guy.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, Like science is incremental, innovation is incremental. There's a

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Speaker 8: sort of network of what we would call experimental philosophers

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Speaker 8: and experimental scientists, although they're not really thinking of themselves

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Speaker 8: as scientists necessarily at this moment, because all these things

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Speaker 8: are kind of mixed together, Like you're a philosopher and

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Speaker 8: a scientist and a doctor and whatever altogether, you're just

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Speaker 8: engaging in sort of questions about the world and trying

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Speaker 8: to answer them much like yourselves, you, Travis Scott, and Benjacinara,

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Speaker 8: and he is part of this network. We know that

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Speaker 8: he's traveling to Europe fairly regularly and coming back and

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Speaker 8: doing stuff. So I imagine that he exists in this

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Speaker 8: space where he's coming up with things by himself is.

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Speaker 6: Just not real or possible.

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Speaker 8: We know, for example, that the lightning rod is based

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Speaker 8: in part on European theories around electricity and lightning.

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Speaker 6: There is a Czech.

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Speaker 8: Priest named Prokop Divish who is also working on grounded

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Speaker 8: lightning rods at the same time. His grounded lightning rod

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Speaker 8: happens about three years after Franklin's, but they're working with

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Speaker 8: the same ideas. So that's not to say that he

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Speaker 8: doesn't do these incredible things, but like he doesn't do

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Speaker 8: them by himself, and he doesn't do them in a

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Speaker 8: way that no one else is considering approaching them because

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Speaker 8: science is also a very messy and very iterative process,

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Speaker 8: Like you have to try things over and over and

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Speaker 8: over again and figure them out. And if he's the

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Speaker 8: first guy to do in America, like that's great, but

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Speaker 8: he's not the only.

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Speaker 6: Capable of it either.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it seems like he's benefited from essentially

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Speaker 3: like the elementary school curriculum, right, Like the oversimplification happens

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Speaker 3: because they're teaching this to kids, so he's getting a

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Speaker 3: lot of credit from I mean, I didn't read a

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Speaker 3: single thing about him after elementary school. I think so

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Speaker 3: if I had, I guess the teachings would have been

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Speaker 3: a little bit more nuanced.

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Speaker 2: I'm worried about your high school education, but but I

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Speaker 2: do wonder how much it is is like you said,

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Speaker 2: many like the over simplification, like teaching kids things, you know,

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Speaker 2: like even like Rose Parks wasn't the first person, you know,

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Speaker 2: to not get up. She also wasn't seated in the

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Speaker 2: front of the bus. You know, like there's there's stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. There's a nuance cell out of stuff that

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Speaker 2: when you're a kid, it's like, you know, can just

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Speaker 2: fit in a picture book. It's like Benjamin Franklin Kite

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Speaker 2: get the gist electricity.

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Speaker 3: Right, You're not going to tell the kid about all

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Speaker 3: the other collaborators.

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Speaker 6: Yes, exactly, about Czech priests broke up division.

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Speaker 1: We didn't need to go to Prague and see whether.

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Speaker 8: I mean, and that's kind of generally a problem with

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Speaker 8: how people understand historical figures, right, Like the real problem

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Speaker 8: is once again the American education system. Unfortunately, in terms

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Speaker 8: of how we like satisfying endings.

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Speaker 6: We like people who said satisfy curiosity.

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Speaker 8: We like people who we can hold up and say

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Speaker 8: this is the guy, because history itself is a lot

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Speaker 8: messier and more complicated than that, and it's harder.

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Speaker 6: To grapple with.

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Speaker 8: So these simplifications really benefit us in terms of our

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Speaker 8: ability to understand things. They're often though not really that

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Speaker 8: true or that real, and the issue is further down

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Speaker 8: the line when you're like, ah, well, this is the

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Speaker 8: thing I know about Benjamin Franklin and someone has to say,

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Speaker 8: I guess, well, not so much.

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Speaker 1: That Kelsey's main gripe, aside from kind of the Philly

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Speaker 1: centric angle and like the advertisement use, which is obviously

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Speaker 1: way far. Afield was kind of like, how could this

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Speaker 1: one guy do all this thing? Yeah, yeah, we're but

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Speaker 1: to me, this is my simple explanations. I think about

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Speaker 1: someone like da Vinci, like a renaissance man sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, you know, hundreds of years ago, not

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Speaker 1: that many people were educated, so to me, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem that crazy that the few people that were highly

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Speaker 1: educated would know about a lot of things and be

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Speaker 1: working in a lot of different fields, whether that be

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Speaker 1: you know, science, electricity or politics or whatever, or art

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Speaker 1: in you know, Franklin, he was writing, he did almanacs,

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things. So it's not that crazy that

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Speaker 1: one guy would kind of have his hand in all

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Speaker 1: these different pots. Yeah, I mean, does that make sense?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, like fully, one hundred percent, it makes sense.

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Speaker 8: The way that we conceive of like sciences and the

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Speaker 8: humanities or art as these separate categories is relatively recent.

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Speaker 8: Like historically speaking, the man who is educated is educated

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Speaker 8: in all of these fields, and they're not seen as

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Speaker 8: necessarily separable. So you can say like, yes, I've learned history,

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Speaker 8: Yes I've learned science or art or whatever.

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Speaker 6: But a person who.

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Speaker 8: Is educated as well rounded and interested in all of

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Speaker 8: these things. So like what I mentioned before about this

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Speaker 8: sort of philosopher or physicist whatever guy, that's very normal

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Speaker 8: because that is part.

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Speaker 6: Of being educated and interested in the world.

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Speaker 8: The way that we've kind of siloed these things as

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Speaker 8: totally separate is relatively recent, because now we've focus in

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Speaker 8: on like becoming an expert in one single thing, becoming

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Speaker 8: the person we in part because our approach to things

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Speaker 8: like invention has narrowed further and further because we're getting

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Speaker 8: we're progressing and.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we're getting more admits.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so you can be like, I do this one thing.

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Speaker 8: So a lot of these things really benefit or draw

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Speaker 8: from each other. So the Da Vinci Renaissance man style guy,

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Speaker 8: it was a much more common person until recently, and

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Speaker 8: like a thing that proves how good you are and

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Speaker 8: how educated you are and how intelligent you are that

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Speaker 8: you can engage with all these different things.

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Speaker 2: I feel like the similarity happens in like youth sports

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Speaker 2: now right where back in the day, if you are athletic,

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Speaker 2: you would play a bunch of different sports. Now they

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Speaker 2: have like eight year olds that they're like, you're going

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Speaker 2: to be a sock star. You're only playing soccer, do

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Speaker 2: not play any other sports? Yeah yeah, And a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, older athletes talk about that's not actually great,

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Speaker 2: like you should if your child's athletic, just let them

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Speaker 2: play a bunch of different sports and like don't narrow

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Speaker 2: them down.

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Speaker 1: When the later exactly, Okay, you're going to make a career.

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Speaker 8: It used to even more recently beyond that, using the

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Speaker 8: sports childhood sports analogy. Being a three sport athlete used

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Speaker 8: to be a type of person in the US, Like

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Speaker 8: if you're a person who plays baseball, basketball, and football,

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Speaker 8: you are a three sport athlete. Yeah, that's like that

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Speaker 8: was a type of high school guy basically, and now

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Speaker 8: we rarely see that because people are told to do

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Speaker 8: just do one thing or be like maybe you should

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Speaker 8: focus on your school work.

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Speaker 6: I'd only play ones.

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Speaker 8: But yeah, so even that is like us narrowing and

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Speaker 8: arrowing and yeah, all of that is crazy too because

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Speaker 8: it's like, hey, eight year old, yeah, I need you

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Speaker 8: to prepare yourself for a.

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Speaker 6: Life of CTE.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, starting now, starting now.

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Speaker 3: Ron James was famously a five star football recruit as well,

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Speaker 3: maybe not maybe four or five stars I can't remember,

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Speaker 3: but he definitely could have made a lot of money

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Speaker 3: in football.

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Speaker 2: But he's a big athletic guy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some great highlight tapes on YouTube if you want

436
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Speaker 3: to go back and check them out.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we pull him off right now.

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Speaker 8: To go back to your question some of the other

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Speaker 8: things he's credited with.

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Speaker 6: So the bifocals.

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Speaker 8: One is good glasses existed, having different glasses also existed

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Speaker 8: for for distance and for a close range vision. From

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Speaker 8: what I understand, things like inventions are not necessarily my specialty.

444
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 8: As his story, but from what I understand in the

445
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 8: research they did for this, he kind of perfected an

446
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 8: idea that had existed, that pre existed, or he he

447
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 8: made a thing that people had been thinking about into

448
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 8: a thing that existed.

449
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 6: If that makes sense, yeah, especially because we're like he

450
00:23:58,720 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 6: invented the bifole. Well that's what great.

451
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 8: But if people are switching between two kinds of glasses,

452
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 8: I feel certain someone said I wish these were one

453
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 8: pair of you know, he.

454
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: Basically made like a scrub daddy.

455
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 1: He just put it like we got sponges. Yeah, a

456
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: better version of this, you put your finger, that'd be perfect.

457
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: Let me do it.

458
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 8: Let me get to be fair. I am a huge

459
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 8: scrub daddy.

460
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I.

461
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 6: Have scrubed mommies too.

462
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: Are actually better? Can you guys give me the quick

463
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 1: pitch on what squad actually is the benefit of these

464
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: compared to another normal sponge.

465
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: I think there's better sponges. They're they're thicker, you know,

466
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: sponges more I would say horizontal.

467
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, so these are more they and the wetter they get,

468
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 8: the softer they get. So they start out like kind

469
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 8: of crispy in a way that's good for.

470
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 6: Your pants.

471
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, and then they get softer so they're more workable,

472
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 8: which is great, and have more crevices crevice options.

473
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: And the mommy has two sides.

474
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: Okay, like a hard side, like a scrubside.

475
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 2: Scrubside, and then like a more a softer sid try.

476
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: It out and we're not putting this in until they

477
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: give us some money.

478
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: Yes, at the.

479
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 8: End of the episode sponsor us scrub daddy and mommy.

480
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: Some other things. And these are more like uh like

481
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: infrastructural that came up were like the fire department, postal

482
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: service speak to that, like how how important was Franklin

483
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 1: to those being set up?

484
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 8: Fire brigades existed? Yeah, that was a long a long time,

485
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 8: pretty famous before. And yeah, they did have fires and

486
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 8: they did have community responses to.

487
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: Individual es.

488
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 8: Benjamin Franklin actually invented both fires and fires.

489
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 6: And the concept of insurance.

490
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 8: I don't know, I'm I also feel confident that that predated,

491
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 8: at least to some extent, with all of these things

492
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 8: we're looking at, like what we consider very obvious concepts

493
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 8: now that he might have popularized or he might have

494
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 8: formalized in some way. But again, like I don't necessarily

495
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 8: think that these are things that we should be like.

496
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 8: That's his thing, that's him who did that. One of

497
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 8: the things that I found interesting in the conversation that

498
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 8: you had with Rich is he talks a little shit

499
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 8: about John Adams in it, And I found that very

500
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 8: funny because John Adams kind of emerges as the opposite

501
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 8: of Ben Franklin and in the way.

502
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 6: That Rich says.

503
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 8: But one of the things he's annoyed at Ben Franklin

504
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 8: for and writes in his diaries and in letters about

505
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 8: as in John Adams is writing this, is that Franklin.

506
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 8: Adams is writing that that Franklin, like is getting too

507
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 8: much credit for stuff, and he feels frustrated that that

508
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 8: he's been credited not just for inventions, but for like

509
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 8: the whole revolution and for all of these ideas, and

510
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 8: he feels frustrated that people are kind of laying all

511
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 8: of this at Franklin's feet.

512
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 6: So this goes also to the did he have haters?

513
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 8: Yeah, when he was alive thing that there was already

514
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 8: frustration while he was alive at how people were engaging

515
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 8: in this like myth making around him.

516
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: Did John want some more credit? Was John like, hey,

517
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 2: I'm doing some of this ship too, nobody's talking about me.

518
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: Was that was that his real issue? Or was he

519
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: just like all right enough?

520
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: This sounds like class the more classic kind of hating

521
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: where it's like I'm tired of hearing about this guy.

522
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it's more of that. I don't think

523
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 8: there's as much of John Adams being like it should

524
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 8: have been me. But I do think he's like, Okay,

525
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 8: there were a lot of us at the Constitutional Convention,

526
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 8: hold on, but yeah, and even like Thomas Jefferson is

527
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 8: also writing like, look, he can't be president because his

528
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 8: temper is a little too he says.

529
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 6: I think he says he has a supple.

530
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 8: Temper, but that he's not suited did in terms of

531
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 8: temperament to the difficulties of actual leadership.

532
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 6: I mean, there are people who are while he's alive,

533
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 6: being like hold on, like we can't. This guy is

534
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 6: not necessarily everything he's being held up to be.

535
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: So he did have haters, but how widespread was this hate.

536
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: You know these people are right, you're saying righteous in

537
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: your diaries. Are they saying this publicly or the just

538
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: whispers behind the scenes.

539
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: I hate these guys. Yeah, that's different than the little people.

540
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 6: Not as much public hate.

541
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 8: It depends on what point in his life you're talking about.

542
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 8: The British are really frustrated at him, for example, because

543
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 8: they're like, man, you kind of mess this up for us.

544
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 6: Like the British are.

545
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 8: Like, you know, maybe wouldn't have succeeded, for example, if

546
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 8: he didn't go to France and do this. So that's

547
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 8: what we would consider sort of hating from someone who

548
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 8: like lost a war.

549
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: I'd be pretty mad if I.

550
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 6: So that one is more understandable.

551
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 8: The people around him do have these frustrations, and a

552
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 8: lot of them end up being.

553
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 6: Kind of frustrations around like is he a good employer?

554
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 8: The normal stuff, But there isn't like this widespread hate

555
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 8: movement while he's alive, necessarily until you get to his

556
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 8: late seventies. He dies in his mid eighties, but his

557
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 8: late seventies is when he decides to take an abolitionist turn,

558
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 8: and then people who are like, no, we like slavery

559
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 8: are like we hate this guy. That being said, there

560
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 8: is another group of people who might hate him, which

561
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 8: would be all of the people he had enslaved, and

562
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 8: so those people might hate him, but we lose them

563
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 8: in the historical record, which is a pretty common issue

564
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 8: with for example, enslaved people who were enslavers, where we

565
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 8: lose the voices of the people who had like that

566
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 8: level of relationship with him, that level of antagonistic relationship,

567
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 8: and so often when we think about them because we

568
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 8: don't have them in the historical record, where like everyone

569
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 8: loved him, it's like, maybe not the people who couldn't

570
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 8: leave his house.

571
00:29:59,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: You know.

572
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 8: It's a pretty sobering thing, But it depends on who

573
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 8: you consider a person when you're thinking about like what

574
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 8: hating on someone is, who counts?

575
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:24,239
Speaker 1: Can you walk us through his arc towards abolitionism.

576
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 8: Benjamin Franklin died in seventeen ninety. He takes this abolitionist turn,

577
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 8: or starts thinking about it from what I can tell,

578
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 8: in the early seventeen seventies, he moves fully into what

579
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 8: we would call his abolitionist kind of phase. In I

580
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 8: think seventeen eighty one, he becomes an open public abolitionist

581
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 8: takes over control of this very public abolitionist group. He's

582
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 8: doing all of these things in part because he's like,

583
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 8: I think this might be bad. He's also surrounded by

584
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 8: other people at this moment in the seventeen eighties, where

585
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 8: wealthy people living.

586
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 6: In the North are starting to be like, maybe this

587
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 6: isn't good.

588
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 8: So this is actually when the fault lines start to

589
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 8: appear between who thinks slavery is an acceptable institution and

590
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 8: who thinks it's not. But he yeah, he takes his

591
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 8: weird turn, and we think around seventeen seventy two seventeen

592
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 8: seventy five he starts thinking about it more and becomes

593
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 8: open and public about it in the seventeen eighties, But

594
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 8: before that, when he's asked to comment on slavery, he

595
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 8: like outright refuses. So for most of his life, not

596
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 8: only does he own slaves or have people living with

597
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 8: his family as their slaves, he also feels basically fine

598
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 8: with it and is like, when asked to comment on it,

599
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 8: says he's not going to. He also is making money

600
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 8: off of slavery because he is the editor and the

601
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 8: guy who runs the Pennsylvania Gazette, where people are advertising

602
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 8: slave markets and slave sales, so he's actively making money

603
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 8: off of this. And he also when people have like

604
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 8: missing or self emancipated slaves, so people who run away,

605
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 8: he's allowing these missing and runaway slave ads to be

606
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 8: run in his paper, so he like enables slave patrols

607
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 8: and slave catchers as well.

608
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 6: Not super good.

609
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

610
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 8: The other thing I would add to the abolitionist thing

611
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 8: is at the point that he becomes an abolitionist, he

612
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 8: still has people who are enslaved living that he like owns,

613
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 8: and he puts in his will that when he dies,

614
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 8: that's when.

615
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: They can convenient and they.

616
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 8: Both, the two that he names and his will, both

617
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 8: die before he does, so they die still enslaved.

618
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: Washington do something similar, Yes, mancific after this is kind of.

619
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 6: A classic thing. Actually that people who are classic.

620
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 8: As in like this is a common thing, a thing

621
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 8: that happens when people are like abolition is good.

622
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: Not yet though, yeah wait until I'm gone.

623
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, you can't do it, but the next generation might

624
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 8: be equipped you. You You've lived too long like this.

625
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 8: I'm too responsible for you. I'm not going to, for example,

626
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 8: offer you your freedom and then pay for you to

627
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 8: live a life of freedom and take care of you

628
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 8: that way financially, which he absolutely could have done and

629
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 8: other people did.

630
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 6: Instead. He was like, when I'm gone, you can go too.

631
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: It's what frustrates me so much about this kind of

632
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: argument on the right, from like the Charlie Kirk types

633
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 3: that like, you can't really blame the Confederacy that much

634
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: because slavery was normal. It was like the norm, and

635
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: they didn't know any better. But there is so much

636
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: information that disproves that. The question we have to the

637
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: guys who had the slaves, you can be free after

638
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: I die, it's a clear indication that they knew what

639
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: they were.

640
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 8: Doing, absolutely, And one of the questions we have to

641
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 8: ask when that comes up, when someone says, oh, this

642
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 8: was normal, it's like for who yeah, Because again, the

643
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 8: calculus then is who's a person.

644
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

645
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 6: If the calculus is a.

646
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 8: Person who enslaves someone and someone who is enslaved, and

647
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 8: we don't have the enslaved person's thoughts on the record,

648
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 8: and we do have this person, we default to the

649
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 8: person who says it was normal.

650
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

651
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 8: The person experiencing it does not think this is normal, yeah, right, Like.

652
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: It might even be normal on this on the basis

653
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: of like a society, But it doesn't mean it was

654
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: like default.

655
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 8: Fine, no, And also yeah, normal doesn't mean good or positive. Yeah,

656
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 8: so it's a It is a really frustrating and kind

657
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 8: of circular argument because it really just gets back to like, well,

658
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 8: who do you consider a person? Whose thoughts do you

659
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 8: care about, Whose feelings do you care about? Who matters here?

660
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 8: You know, to bring John Adams up again, which I

661
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 8: think is interesting to head off this this is normal.

662
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 8: All the Founding Fathers had them argument. You know, who

663
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 8: did not have slaves? John Adams who emerges as kind

664
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 8: of the secret hero, and neither did his cousin Samuel Adams.

665
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 8: In fact, of the Founding Fathers we traditionally think of,

666
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 8: for example, when we're looking at the signing of the

667
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 8: Decoration of Independence, a little over a quarter of them

668
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 8: were not slaveholders. So if you can say it's normal

669
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 8: to in slavor, yeah, it's also normal not to be

670
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 8: it would be to be like a vegetarian or something.

671
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

672
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: Do we know if that was because of like historical

673
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: happenstance or they had a position against it.

674
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 8: It depends on the person. Sometimes it's kind of both.

675
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 8: Sometimes they like it doesn't make financial sense for me.

676
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 8: They're expensive, right, Like not just in like to purchase,

677
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 8: but the care and upkeeping another human being is expensive,

678
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 8: and so some people couldn't really like afford this. And

679
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 8: this is just using the sort of like really kind.

680
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: Of like.

681
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 8: Colds, But there's that some people did also have like

682
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 8: a real moral ethical obligation where they felt like this

683
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 8: was not right.

684
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 6: So those people count too. And I think it's interesting.

685
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 8: That when we think about Benjamin Franklin, we're like, look

686
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 8: at all these amazing things he did. The seven people

687
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 8: that he over the course of his life purchased sold.

688
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 6: At one point, one runs away.

689
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 8: From him in England and he goes on this quest

690
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 8: to go find this man. Discovers that the man is

691
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 8: in this other woman's house in England and is having

692
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 8: a better time.

693
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 6: There basically, and he's like, okay, fine, I guess you

694
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 6: can stay here. And he sells the man.

695
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 8: So again, this is not like he says, you're having

696
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 8: a good time, I guess you can.

697
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 6: Stay because you're happy. He's like, so do you need

698
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 6: to pay me.

699
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 8: In this scenario when you can stay in England? But yeah,

700
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 8: I mean he he for almost his whole life makes

701
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 8: money off of slavery and benefits enormously from enslaving people.

702
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 8: So I think that should be part of the conversation

703
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 8: when you think about if he's important or good or

704
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,479
Speaker 8: a fraud or whatever, and that goes to the what's

705
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 8: bad about him?

706
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 6: That's mostly what's bad about Okay.

707
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: On our we're going to cancel Benjamin Franklin. The slave

708
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: stuff pretty big.

709
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: It's a bad one.

710
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 2: It's up there.

711
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll speak for rich and say we don't support that.

712
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 8: Gary Nash, who's a historian who works on the American

713
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 8: Revolution and works on like black and white relations during

714
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 8: and after the American Revolution, says, like many other white

715
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 8: colonists during the years leading up to the American Revolution,

716
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 8: the Franklins grew to dislike slavery, but not so much

717
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 8: as to sacrifice their investments. So they don't they don't

718
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 8: like it, but they don't like it, like they still

719
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 8: like it enough to change, yeah, to not risk some money.

720
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 6: Basically, yeah, so just like.

721
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: We won't do it again, and they do.

722
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: Do it again. Though.

723
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 6: You know what's interesting is they say, like, whoa, we

724
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 6: don't want to do this, but if you have a kid,

725
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 6: that kid's going to be going to become a slave too.

726
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 8: It's a really like it's a murky thing, and it's

727
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 8: a thing that makes people really uncomfortable because you have

728
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 8: to grapple with a whole lot of.

729
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 6: Other stuff about American history when you think about it.

730
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, that's my argument for the like what's

731
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 8: about he also, you know, does the thing that quite

732
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 8: that a lot of white colonists at this time do

733
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 8: where he says we need to take the West indigenous

734
00:37:59,080 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 8: peoples over there?

735
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 6: Who cares about them? He's not overtly like we hate

736
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 6: them and should kill them. He just is like, we

737
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 6: should take the West too.

738
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 8: We need more space, we need more people. The way

739
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 8: that America is going to survive is by bringing as

740
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 8: many people here as possible. And he's not, you know,

741
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 8: alone in thinking this, and it's not specifically about wanting to,

742
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 8: you know, cause the annihilation of this enormous group of people.

743
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 6: But he doesn't have a problem.

744
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 8: With it necessarily, so you can, I guess add that

745
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 8: as another tick on the list.

746
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: Up next, what did Ben Franklin think about running for

747
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: president and older women and farting.

748
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: All of that?

749
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: After the break?

750
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 6: Would he be taken more seriously, if he had been president, is.

751
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 3: Another ambitions to be to run for office.

752
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 8: No, he's eighty one at the Constitutional Convention old for context,

753
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 8: George Washington is fifty five at this point my whole

754
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 8: I know completely then.

755
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: And this was before eighty year olds were running for president.

756
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: At the time, ahead of his time.

757
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: If he yea also is is eighty like it's already

758
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: old today, but back then that must be like.

759
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: It's like one hundred and twenty year old.

760
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's very ocean.

761
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, I mean he's not like, it's not like insane.

762
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 8: There are plenty of eighty year olds that existed, fact

763
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 8: that not as often as now because you could get

764
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 8: dysentery pretty easily, you know, so like you could get

765
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 8: taken out by all kinds of stuff at a garage,

766
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 8: you know, like they didn't have penicillin.

767
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah right, some basic stuff.

768
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I mean there is there is that.

769
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: Uh so he was in no shape to It wasn't

770
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: like they passed over him. It's like, guys, I'm too

771
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: old that I'm yeah, I'm not even in running.

772
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 8: It wasn't gonna that wasn't gonna happen that I don't

773
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 8: think that was a real conversation that that people.

774
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 6: Were really were thinking about.

775
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 8: But yeah, it does reframe a lot of this stuff,

776
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 8: and we think about, like he lived, you know, his

777
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 8: whole life other than the stints in Europe, like in

778
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 8: the US or what would become the US and he's

779
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 8: eighty one when we get a constitution.

780
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: He was able to do all this stuff then, Yeah,

781
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: you know, he had a lot of time.

782
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 6: That's part of this.

783
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 8: He's not president, so we can spend his time doing

784
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 8: all kinds of going on side quests for his entire

785
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 8: life you know then was not very quick. Yeah, yeah,

786
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 8: he's he's like he has time to do a million

787
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 8: other things because he doesn't.

788
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 6: Hold political office in the same way.

789
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 8: So he kind of has given this like guiding grandpa

790
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 8: uncle role in a lot of this.

791
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, he is Clinton.

792
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 3: Is un I'm basically curious, like what he was up

793
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 3: to during the war, Oh.

794
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 8: All kinds of stuff he was in France, he was

795
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 8: he was like being a diplomat and securing alliances.

796
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: Was he like busy with that or was this isn't

797
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 3: also a time when he's like kind of doing all

798
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 3: the inventions.

799
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 6: I think kind of simultaneously doing all of these things.

800
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 6: But a lot of the inventions do.

801
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 8: Kind of pre date the constitutional conventions, and there's like

802
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 8: between During the war, he's off getting alliances, meeting people,

803
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 8: hanging out, yeah, and not fighting because he's seventy years

804
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 8: the oldest.

805
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 6: Like these all feed.

806
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 8: Into each other though, right, because he's in France, he's

807
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 8: meeting all these philosophers and scientists and whatever, and then

808
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 8: he's getting ideas.

809
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 6: He's coming back.

810
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 8: He invents the Franklin stove, which is a stove that

811
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 8: is kind of credited with, Like he's kinded with this

812
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 8: new stove technique that, by the way, is immediately improved

813
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 8: upon because it's.

814
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 6: Not that good. But he's still like is this guy who.

815
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: Step on Yeah?

816
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, like his his relationship to the war

817
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 8: is more in like a support being in other places

818
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 8: doing stuff, so he has time he even there kind

819
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 8: of has timed it.

820
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 6: Dick around. Yeah, interestings to.

821
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: Who would we say is like the modern day equivalent

822
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: of Benjamin Franklin diplomacy And.

823
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, it depends on your idea of diplomacy because.

824
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 6: There are plenty of like tech billionaire guys Gates or

825
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 6: something that who are all over the place doing all

826
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 6: kinds of weird stuff.

827
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's not really doing diplomacy at least. Bill

828
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 2: Gates has like the charities and stuff.

829
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 3: Elon skipped the diplomacy, says, he's just directly involved in

830
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: the elections. Yeah, he's not really having conversations, just doing Yeah.

831
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 8: It is kind of weird to compare like Elon and

832
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 8: Benjamin Franklin because we're like, Okay, well here's our idea

833
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 8: of an inventor, like a.

834
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 6: Crazy inventor guy.

835
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 8: But because Benjamin Franklin does actually invent a bunch of

836
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 8: stuff or like come up with stuff and do stuff.

837
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 6: And he also like does objectively help the.

838
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 8: Become a country rather than just be like, let's destroy

839
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 8: everything and hire someone named big Balls to like take over.

840
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 8: I don't know, but this does fit with Actually I

841
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 8: said that we should talk about his milk thing. The inventors.

842
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 8: Famous inventors are freaky guys is a long term problem

843
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 8: in the US, and and Benjamin Franklin has a lot

844
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 8: of like weird creepy.

845
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 6: Uncle stuff that he does and not not in like

846
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 6: a not.

847
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 8: In like a scary way, but in like a like

848
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 8: a you know, Elon and like the WIFEU stuff.

849
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: No, no, am I to online?

850
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: Yeah no, no, like he just loves the anime looking Yeah.

851
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, Benjamin Franklin is like that a little bit.

852
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 3: Well, so who's the anime in Benjamin?

853
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 8: So he we have letters from him where he does

854
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 8: a couple of things. So one of the things he's

855
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 8: famous for is writing something called fart Proudly, which is

856
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 8: proudly fart proudly, which uh. A fun thing about a

857
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 8: lot of guys in the eighteenth century is they were

858
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 8: they love talking about farting. So that's and that's something

859
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 8: that ben Franklin is really into back then. He but yeah,

860
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 8: he writes this thing that's for I think it's sort

861
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 8: of like a science magazine, like to encourage young men

862
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 8: to engage in scientific inquiry. And so he writes this

863
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 8: thing manifesto. I don't know how to describe it, about

864
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 8: how they should practice farting basically and how they should

865
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 8: like do it as scientific experiment and like they should

866
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 8: undertake special diets.

867
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 6: It's crazy, but.

868
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 8: Like we can find we have I think he's read no, no,

869
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 8: he's talking literally yeah, but then he's saying do this

870
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 8: and then you'll learn how to engage in scientific inquiry

871
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 8: if you do this farting experiment. But like back then

872
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 8: they were making fart jokes and being like, you know

873
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 8: what teen teenage boys love is fart jokes, and he.

874
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 6: Was like yeah, and then time yeah.

875
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 8: And then the other real weird thing that we have

876
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 8: from him, it's a letter that's known as Advice to

877
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 8: a young Friend on mistresses, and it's telling this young friend. Uh,

878
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 8: he's telling this young friend that having sexual urges, being

879
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 8: horny is normal, and the way to solve it is

880
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 8: by getting a wife.

881
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 6: And he says, you know they're hot when they're old too,

882
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 6: like get a hot.

883
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 8: Old wife basically, and like it's you're kind of like okay,

884
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 8: and but some of the things he writes about it

885
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 8: are yeah, and I'm sorry to.

886
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 6: My parents who are probably gonna be listening to this.

887
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 8: The Wikipedia page on it literally says, whether serious or humorous,

888
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 8: the letter is frankly sexual.

889
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 6: He says. He talks about things like.

890
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 8: The lower parts continuing to last as plump as ever,

891
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 8: and says and as in the dark, all cats are gray.

892
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 6: The pleasure of corporal enjoyment with an old woman is

893
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 6: at least equal and frequently superior, every knack being by practice,

894
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 6: capable of improvements. Who says, the older she is, the

895
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 6: better she is, the more practice she has is incredible.

896
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 6: Isn't that incredible? So add that to the uncancellation.

897
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: Yes, supersedes slavery, and we're assuming by older woman. He's maybe,

898
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 3: I mean back then, he could be talking about someone's

899
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: twenty what is.

900
00:46:59,040 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: The eight.

901
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 8: I mean he has a wife, like, he has an

902
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 8: old later on, Yeah, he's writing this to.

903
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 6: A young young like. He's saying, hey, I know.

904
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 2: You got to get an experience.

905
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 6: You can get a more experience, he says, he's just

906
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 6: trying to pay through this.

907
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, he's like, you're no, I mean, you have urges.

908
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 8: You're a young man. Get a wife and the bonuses.

909
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:28,959
Speaker 1: It just gets better.

910
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: It's all.

911
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 6: Cats are not take he.

912
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: Said, don't take advantage of her either, get married to her.

913
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 4: Yeah.

914
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: He's not saying just go out there and sleep with her,

915
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: make her your wife.

916
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 8: And he's saying, this is the best way to fulfill

917
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 8: all of these urges.

918
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: It's by being loyal to more experience. Yeah, I can't

919
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: find nothing wrong with that's pretty good, absolutely good.

920
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a It is wild

921
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 8: every pretty much every historic figure.

922
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 6: If you look hard enough, you're going to find something crazy.

923
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: I love the day So he wrote this. This is

924
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 2: a letter he sent to his front man. If I

925
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: send you off some ship like that, right after you

926
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: read it read.

927
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: Letters, Hey, I don't know what to do, Like I'm

928
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: dating Devin sends me that. Hey, listen, all cats are

929
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: great in the friends.

930
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 8: It does have a very like uncle at a at

931
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 8: like a barbecue.

932
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: Let me tell you something.

933
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, look, you've been single for too long.

934
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: They wrote too much down back then, you know.

935
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 3: So I always wonder if it's going to be read

936
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: by the public in the future, like I imagine in

937
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: this case, the guy who received the letter, maybe his

938
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 3: family after he died, gave it to a museum or

939
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 3: something because they knew who he was from. I always

940
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 3: wonder if the.

941
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 8: Audience, Yes, exactly, people were writing letters the way that

942
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 8: people are like tweeting.

943
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, because we would call it an epistolary culture.

944
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 8: So like letter writing culture, this is like how you

945
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 8: get your thoughts up.

946
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 6: So people are saying thousands of letters to each other.

947
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,959
Speaker 8: So this is something that you would just fire off

948
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 8: like he was like, all right, I need to give

949
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 8: someone advice.

950
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: He said at my young boy, you know, like he

951
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: was on Twitter. Yeah, he's the guy's tweet now. Yeah,

952
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 2: he's like, young, I'm a horny what should I do?

953
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: And then Ben's adding him.

954
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 3: Wasn't the original tweet icon when you click to tweet

955
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 3: something like a quills? Oh yeah, there's.

956
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 8: Continuity, historical continuity happening here.

957
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 6: Actually, we're all engaging in epistolary culture. Wow, at this

958
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 6: moment in time.

959
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: If we still use Twitter, that's beautiful.

960
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: So I guess the last question we have is why

961
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: isn't he today more scrutinized. You know, I like a

962
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 2: lot of modern day figures, especially post twenty twenty. We

963
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: were looking at everybody.

964
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: Jefferson, they got his.

965
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: We were going through all these people. Oh, y'all like him.

966
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: They did this ship here.

967
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, Jefferson really really got and he deserves to Jackson

968
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 8: Jackson too.

969
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, harder than ever.

970
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So why I don't remember us talking a lot

971
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: about Benny during that time period? Why do you think

972
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: that is?

973
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 4: Why?

974
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 6: Why do you have any memories of this?

975
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: And why did he get?

976
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, my only guess is like because he's not

977
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: a president, so only we mainly think of him. Of

978
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: course we know this diplomacy and stuff from but I

979
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: mean we think of the electricity thing as kind of

980
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: the iconic stuff I feel like when you're a kid, right,

981
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: and then you know he's involved in the other stuff,

982
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: but we don't put that much importance because we don't

983
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: see him like a George Washington was the leader.

984
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: Of the country.

985
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think the presidents obviously take you know,

986
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: the first they're the top founder and then like the

987
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: one b we got Ben Franklin, right, even though he's

988
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: probably more famous than a few of those presidents really.

989
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he wasn't like a general or something like that.

990
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's not any there's not like other stories

991
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: about him in that way.

992
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: I don't know.

993
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: That's that's my only guess for why we haven't had

994
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: that re examination. And then the only other association storry

995
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 1: I'll keep going. Please, he's on one hundred dollars bills,

996
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: so it's like all about the Benjamins. We'd like, like

997
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: that's a cool, daool aspirational thing and just we like money,

998
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 1: yeah cool, And.

999
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 6: He's all over filly and sunglasses.

1000
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Yeah, all our friends in Philly see him

1001
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: all the time.

1002
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1003
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 8: I think there are two answers to this. So the

1004
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 8: first answer is basically what you've said. He's so fascinating.

1005
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 8: He does all this interesting stuff. He's all over the place,

1006
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 8: he has all these side quests, he's going to all

1007
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,720
Speaker 8: these places doing interesting things, and he's doing this while

1008
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 8: not holding enormous formal state power.

1009
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 6: So we don't tend to criticize people who we see

1010
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 6: as being like.

1011
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 8: Helpers of the machine rather than the machine themselves. And

1012
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 8: like we love the kooky genius guy, Like that's archetype

1013
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 8: that we've been working with for a very very long

1014
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 8: time in a lot of different contexts. We know, the

1015
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 8: interesting genius dude, Like that's a that's if you like

1016
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 8: go in your head, climb into your head and think

1017
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 8: about this, Like you could probably come up with a

1018
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 8: ton of like wacky guys, Albert, Yeah, whacky guys who

1019
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 8: come up with stuff. They look funny, they send weird

1020
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 8: letters about farting and specs with older women. They're like,

1021
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 8: they're that's a guy, Like.

1022
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 6: That's the archetype of a guy.

1023
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 8: And so people are like, okay, well we can just

1024
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 8: kind of box them away that way. Yeah, and so

1025
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 8: we don't need to scrutinize him because we're like, oh,

1026
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 8: he's a founding father, but he's eighty when he's doing it,

1027
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 8: and he's kind of he's kind of wacky and and

1028
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 8: so that's I think part of this. And then the

1029
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 8: other part is because we don't really scrutinize historical figures

1030
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 8: that much in general. Actually, like off the top of

1031
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 8: your head, when you're like who are the people that

1032
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 8: we think of, we're like Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson,

1033
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 8: which is like, oh, like the Trail of Tears guy,

1034
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 8: Like you know, yeah, these are and and someone who Yeah,

1035
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 8: and we've got Jefferson and Sally Heavy, like these are

1036
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 8: things where we're like, oh, pretty famously.

1037
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 6: They did really really bad stuff, not like daily level.

1038
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 8: Everyone's kind of doing bad stuff, stuff like really egregiously

1039
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 8: bad things. But everybody who doesn't do that or doesn't

1040
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 8: do things that rise to that level, we often kind

1041
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 8: of leave them alone. So let me make you a

1042
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 8: pitch for a podcast. Yeah, Like, everything I'm saying here

1043
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 8: has been said before by much more knowledgeable people, like

1044
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 8: people who work on Franklin directly so I'm just reiterating

1045
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 8: their ideas. But like people are uncomfortable with having to

1046
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 8: reassess historical figures because if you reassess the past, it

1047
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 8: makes you have to think harder about what you're.

1048
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 6: Dealing with right now.

1049
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 8: There's a reason that like current modern state policy is

1050
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 8: about rewriting and erasing parts of the past that are uncomfortable,

1051
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 8: and specifically the parts that we have started to reckon

1052
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 8: with where we've started to be like, h at this

1053
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 8: at Monticello, for example, or at Mount Vernon. Let's have

1054
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 8: exhibits on the people who were enslaved and living here.

1055
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 6: Let's have these in national parks.

1056
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 8: Let's talk about the indigenous people that we've like booted

1057
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 8: off this land or killed or whatever.

1058
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 7: Like.

1059
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 8: Those are the things that people are trying to get

1060
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 8: rid of, in part because it makes you like think

1061
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 8: about the time that.

1062
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 6: We're living in right now.

1063
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 8: And so when we reassess people, it feels like like

1064
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,919
Speaker 8: it creates a sense of discomfort. It can also create

1065
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 8: a sense of like satisfaction and relief when we reassess someone,

1066
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 8: to feel like someone is being written back into a narrative.

1067
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 8: But that often is at odds with the discomfort. You know,

1068
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 8: it's less satisfying to say this person was complicated, yeah,

1069
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 8: you know, or this person did some good stuff. Also,

1070
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 8: the people who you know, were forced to work for

1071
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 8: him for their entire lives didn't think he was that great.

1072
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 8: Actually probably that's a that's a weird thing to like

1073
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 8: sit with and and think through basically, And so often

1074
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 8: we'll switch to no, he's great, he's really important, and

1075
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 8: or no, it's just he's he's fraudulent. Rather, it's like

1076
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 8: all of these things are true at the same time.

1077
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 8: And also he sucks, and also he's smart, and also

1078
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 8: you know.

1079
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 6: But we like a one dimensional guy when we think

1080
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 6: about history.

1081
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: So now, after all we've learned about Ben Franklin, we

1082
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: think it's important to bring it back to our original debaters,

1083
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: Rich and Kelsey. So we're gonna call him up and

1084
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: see how they feel about all this.

1085
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 2: All right, So we are joined now by our two

1086
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 2: competing factions of the Ben Franklin legacy. Yeah, Kelsey and

1087
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 2: Rich from episode one. So we've now talked to our expert,

1088
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: We've talked to Claire. We have some information we want

1089
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 2: to share a few about good old Benjamin Franklin and

1090
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 2: then we want to get your reactions. But first of all,

1091
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 2: thank you guys for joining us, thank.

1092
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 5: You for having us.

1093
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: It's very serious, very tense.

1094
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 4: I know.

1095
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: It's palpable. Yeah, tension in the studio right now is

1096
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: it feels like I'm in court.

1097
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 3: So we'd love to just get some general reactions thoughts,

1098
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 3: maybe starting with Rich.

1099
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, sure, So I think that in terms of the

1100
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 7: main question, was he overrated, underrated? Was he like legit

1101
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 7: for what he's known for. I think that, Yeah, there's

1102
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 7: a lot of mythology around him, around this idea of

1103
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 7: being a renaissance man. I think part of that is

1104
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 7: he was as close to a celebrity as you.

1105
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: Had back then.

1106
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 7: But I think that used that to his advantage. Yeah,

1107
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 7: basically the Kardashian of the founding Fathers. So I think

1108
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 7: I think he used that to his advantage for his diplomacy,

1109
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 7: especially with France. And I think that, like if we're

1110
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 7: talking about like the first like the premise of this debate, basically,

1111
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 7: I think that even if you just took his diplomacy

1112
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 7: with France, which helped bring them to the war, which

1113
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 7: ended up winning the war, for what became the US,

1114
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 7: I think that is enough for like to be considered

1115
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 7: a founding father in a real way. I think there's

1116
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 7: plenty of evidence yet.

1117
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1118
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 3: Another thing we realized was that your two points of

1119
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 3: view are not even necessarily in contrast with each other.

1120
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: Because Rich you just think he, you know, is adequately

1121
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 3: credited for the things he did in his life. Kelsey's

1122
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 3: just fucking annoyed at seeing him everywhere, So it's like

1123
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 3: they're not even necessarily in conscious Just your general thoughts.

1124
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 5: Well, I'm it's nice to meet you, Rich, and I'm

1125
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 5: glad that moving forwards, friends, I was a little scared

1126
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 5: to learn that I had a potential nemesis out there

1127
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 5: in the universe around Benjamin Franklin. So that's really getting me.

1128
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, No, I'm so excited about everything that we've

1129
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 5: learned through this exploration. I think that's something I'm reflecting on,

1130
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 5: is that this all tracks because I just kind of

1131
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 5: hate celebrities, so maybe that's kind of what I'm responding to.

1132
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 5: I also, I think I have some anger at like

1133
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 5: the kooky little genius guy archetype.

1134
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 3: Uh oh, yeah, the mad scientist.

1135
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think I mean, it's really interesting to

1136
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 5: think about how my positionality and like where I exist

1137
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 5: in history just really complicates my ability to even fully

1138
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 5: understand that as like a norm, because I feel like

1139
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 5: I exist in like the hive mind era of like

1140
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 5: information sharing and discovery, and so the idea that like

1141
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 5: I kind of live by is like nothing is original,

1142
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 5: and we're all making everything together, and like the best

1143
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 5: things that we do are together. And so the idea

1144
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 5: that like this one little guy could come up with

1145
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 5: all without crediting anybody else just like comes into sharp,

1146
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 5: uh like tension with that. But that's a really interesting

1147
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 5: I don't know how I would have felt back then,

1148
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 5: And I'm excited to tell him that he's pro milf.

1149
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 5: That's fascinating.

1150
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 2: That was one of his strongest positions.

1151
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: Actually he never waved on that.

1152
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 4: Thing.

1153
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our

1154
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: executive producers are Kate Osborne and make Yes hot A Cadur.

1155
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: The show is created by Manny Fideo, Noah Friedman, and

1156
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: Devin Joseph. Themine credit song by Manny, mixing by Steve Bone.

1157
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Our guest this week is Claire Aubyn. Check out her

1158
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,479
Speaker 1: show This Guy Sucked and special thanks to our friends

1159
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: Rich and Kelsey. Visit No Such Thing dot show to

1160
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: subscribe to our newsletter for links to more research, and

1161
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: to look at the fart Proudley manifesto. If you have

1162
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: feedback for us or a question, our email is Manny

1163
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: Noah Devin at gmail dot com, or leave us a

1164
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. If

1165
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: you liked this episode, please give us a five star

1166
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: rating and write a nice review wherever you listen, or

1167
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: just drop this link in your family group chat. I'm

1168
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: sure they'll enjoy it. We'll be back next week with

1169
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: a new episode.

1170
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 4: Bye nos nosy, nosy hells No Such Thing.