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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress this week friends, happy holidays.

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Speaker 1: As a gift to you, I have one of my

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Speaker 1: best friends coming on the podcast today. We are joined

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Speaker 1: by none other than Rory Uphold. You see her on

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Speaker 1: Instagram at I Could Be Blonder. She's either giving you

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Speaker 1: incredible advice on dating life or skincare. She is an

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Speaker 1: incredible writer and creative who I've been lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: call my friend family for almost two decades now, and

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Speaker 1: she's here to talk about her new best selling book,

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Speaker 1: A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating. What

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Speaker 1: is a final Girl, you ask, Yes, She's a popular

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Speaker 1: horror movie trope, the movie's soul survivor, the last one

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Speaker 1: standing to confront the killer, the only one left to

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Speaker 1: tell the tale, and the one you root for. She

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Speaker 1: is all of us friends. With her signature wit, vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and voice, Rory is inviting you to survive and thrive

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Speaker 1: as the final girl of your own love story. Let's

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Speaker 1: dive in with Rory Uphold. I like that you're in

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Speaker 1: the hut seat now. Yeah, because I did the first

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Speaker 1: season of your podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you you were you were episode two.

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Speaker 3: I was too, but you were the first one I

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Speaker 3: ever recorded.

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Speaker 1: It was fun, It was very fun. Yeah, when we

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Speaker 1: talked about the orgasm gap, people really liked.

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Speaker 3: That and that gap is wide.

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Speaker 1: Well, now we're going to talk about your best selling

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Speaker 1: a book us before we jump into this for our

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Speaker 1: friends at home who might be like, what's going on?

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Speaker 3: Why are these.

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Speaker 1: Two women just shooting the show? Friends and guests. We

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Speaker 1: happen to be here today with one of my best friends.

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Speaker 1: Rory Uphold is here. You have listened to me on

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Speaker 1: her wonderful podcast, Crimes of the Heart. She just wrote

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Speaker 1: this incredible book, A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors

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Speaker 1: of Dating, which we have discussed online. But we're going to.

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Speaker 3: Discuss on the show today.

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Speaker 1: But before we do that, and we definitely tell some

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Speaker 1: stories that will wind up on the cutting room floor

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Speaker 1: because they're just for us and not for the people. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sorry. I want to go backwards because we've

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Speaker 1: been friends for like a decade and I your producer.

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Speaker 2: Just asked me that. She was like, how long have

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Speaker 2: you guys known each other? And I said, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like twenty.

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Speaker 3: Ten, I think twenty twelve. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I'd have to really go back into like.

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Speaker 1: I'd have to actually go through my camera role to

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Speaker 1: figure it out, which I don't even know if I

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Speaker 1: would know how to do?

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Speaker 3: You have to go back to homyphones right? How phones back? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's been a minute, It's been a very long time.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to settle on a decade and a half.

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Speaker 1: I think it's about there.

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Speaker 3: But I'm furious.

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Speaker 1: That you haven't been in my life since birth because

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Speaker 1: I feel cheated, and I'm so glad you've been here

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Speaker 1: for fifteen years. But I want to know if our

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Speaker 1: adult selves got to hang when they were little, like

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Speaker 1: eight or nine years old, what would the vibe have been.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was like, yeah, I think we would have

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Speaker 3: liked to show a hundred percent we would have.

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Speaker 1: But who was rory?

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Speaker 3: I'm a little kid.

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Speaker 2: I fear for whoever was you know, with us, because

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Speaker 2: I have a feeling you and I would have been

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Speaker 2: running like no, no, no, no, the playhouse needs to be

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Speaker 2: built this way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, please do.

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Speaker 1: That be like that's two in the sun mood in

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Speaker 1: the shade.

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Speaker 2: No, I was I wasn't into sun protection until later

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Speaker 2: in life. I used to be like, so tan, you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't even recognize me. Yeah, yeah, I had white hair,

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Speaker 2: super super tan, like the color of your tack it.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, by on my phone I would show you

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Speaker 3: a photo. It's crazy.

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Speaker 1: The palest, most sun protected friend was in the sun

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Speaker 1: as a child.

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Speaker 2: Wow, yes, yes, And my mom was always really dialed

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Speaker 2: in on that. But it wasn't until I got malasma

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Speaker 2: that I got hashi motos and then I quickly developed malasma.

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Speaker 2: And the two really do go hand in hand because

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Speaker 2: of the relationship with hashimotos and the liver and how

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Speaker 2: estrogen gets processed and malasmas related to estrogen. But nobody

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Speaker 2: knew this when I got diagnosed. I was just told, oh,

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Speaker 2: you have malasma, can't be cured, and that's that's it.

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Speaker 2: And so then I was like on my own to

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Speaker 2: try and figure out all this out, which is how

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Speaker 2: I became so obsessive about all.

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Speaker 3: Of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Guys, if you have a question about dating or medicine,

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Speaker 1: royce or girl.

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Speaker 2: Maybe well if you have like weird ronic illnesses that

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Speaker 2: others can't stare out or skin related stuff, because those

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Speaker 2: are the two things that I feel like I've had

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Speaker 2: to really overcome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but what about it acame at eight?

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Speaker 1: Set the scene for me? What was the vibe? What

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Speaker 1: were you into? What did your days look.

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Speaker 3: Like at eight? Well?

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Speaker 2: I was really gosh okay wait at eight okay?

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Speaker 1: Or maybe the way to ask the question is do

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Speaker 1: you think if you could interact with your eight or

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Speaker 1: nine year old self, would you see some of the

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Speaker 1: traits of your adult self in her?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Although I feel like that question always makes me

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Speaker 2: really sad because I think something that happens in life

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Speaker 2: to all of us is that as we get older,

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Speaker 2: we get beaten down. Yeah, and we collect trauma and baggage,

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Speaker 2: and that there was like a sparkle and a joy

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Speaker 2: and an innocence that I had back then that I

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Speaker 2: don't have anymore.

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Speaker 3: And that part makes me sad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Working on that with my somatic therapist. We were talking

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Speaker 3: about that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just think that, like, okay, I put it this way,

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Speaker 2: So imagine you get into a car accident in an intersection,

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Speaker 2: like you're going through a green light and a car

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Speaker 2: from the other direction t bones you. Right. The next

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Speaker 2: time you go through that intersection, you're probably gonna be scared,

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Speaker 2: and maybe it's just all intersections where you're like, this

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Speaker 2: wasn't supposed to happen, and it came out of nowhere

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Speaker 2: and it totaled my car and it injured me and whatever.

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Speaker 2: That would be normal people wouldn't look at you twice,

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Speaker 2: but don't. We don't have the same sort of treatment

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Speaker 2: when it comes to emotional hurts and relationships. And so

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Speaker 2: many people have t boned me in my personal life.

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Speaker 2: And that's sort of what I mean. When I was eight,

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Speaker 2: Like I didn't know that I was in for like

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Speaker 2: a world of hurt, yeah, And I didn't know that

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Speaker 2: I would be as resilient as I am in all

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Speaker 2: of those things. But I think sometimes when I think

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Speaker 2: about going back to the younger version of myself, that's

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Speaker 2: the part where I'm like, oh my god, yeah that

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Speaker 2: was exciting because like I just believed in fairy tales

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Speaker 2: and hope and all of these things, and I still do,

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Speaker 2: but it's on top of a lot of deprogramming and reprogramming.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's not as pure, Yes, that.

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Speaker 1: Was the word that came to mind for me. It's

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Speaker 1: so pure before you know, and it's not that you

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Speaker 1: can't cultivate magic or joy or sparkle, but we are

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Speaker 1: were imprinted by loss and suffering and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: And I was talking about this the other day, thinking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the holiday with family and just being like, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm so I'm so grateful and this was so hard one.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's a there's an element of how

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Speaker 1: deeply I cherish things in my life because of how

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Speaker 1: hard they were to get to. Yeah, And there's no

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Speaker 1: way to not be like shaped by the hard.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And I think that that's, Yeah, that's sort of what

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Speaker 2: I That's what I meant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is it? Is it that thing, like that kind

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Speaker 1: of connective tissue that you can draw across time? When

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Speaker 1: you started thinking about how to use the hard for something?

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Speaker 1: Did it? When? Did it morph into the idea of

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Speaker 1: being like a horror movie.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh with with love and dating?

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't say like, yeah, I always wrote as

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Speaker 2: a kid, like when high school got rough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have.

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Speaker 2: Hundreds of journals and diaries and I wish I had hundreds.

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Speaker 3: I would go through one a.

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Speaker 2: Week full a full, yeah. And I was the ahead

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Speaker 2: of your book and the head of photography, so I

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Speaker 2: was never without a camera, videotaped my entire senior year.

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Speaker 2: People just like, let me do.

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Speaker 3: That, so you just haven't.

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Speaker 2: So I was just, yeah, just just have all of

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Speaker 2: this stuff. So I was always used to like documenting

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Speaker 2: and when things would get rough, like I would just

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Speaker 2: write it all out. So I think that was always

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Speaker 2: an outlet. But then I don't know the way. There

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Speaker 2: was a couple things like I had been the person

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Speaker 2: that had these like wild, crazy stories. I've always been

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Speaker 2: really comfortable talking about sex or things that most people

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Speaker 2: kind of shy away from, Like I'm like, oh, let's talk.

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Speaker 3: About that, like I'm curious, let's dive in there.

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Speaker 2: And then also some of my experiences like really shaped

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Speaker 2: future relationships. And so that piece coupled with what I

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Speaker 2: was seeing in media, like the way people talk about dating.

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Speaker 3: It's a horror show. It's a nightmare. It's a healthscape.

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Speaker 2: And I thought this is crazy because we say till

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Speaker 2: death do us part in marriage. Yeah, I fell in love,

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Speaker 2: she took my breath away. Those are horrific statements. Even

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Speaker 2: an orgasm means a little death in French. So there's

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Speaker 2: this weird, like intertwined relationship between love and death in

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Speaker 2: the way that we speak about it, and I thought, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's crazy that I've never seen that played with. And

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Speaker 2: so I kept kind of teasing that out and thinking

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Speaker 2: I can do something with that, and then terms like ghosting, orbiting, zombieing,

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Speaker 2: all of that came into the forefront bed death and

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Speaker 2: I realized like, oh, okay, yeah, I just need to

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Speaker 2: like now go through my experiences and figure it out,

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Speaker 2: because I've definitely dated.

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Speaker 3: Some like serial killers of love.

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Speaker 2: And you know, like had me kind of yeah, like

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Speaker 2: horrific experiences. And then the more that I dug, the

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Speaker 2: more I realized, Wow, like the interplay between kind of

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Speaker 2: love and death is really close, just even in like

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Speaker 2: the history of werewolves as a.

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Speaker 3: As lore and like you say more about that, Well, they're.

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Speaker 2: Cursed creatures and sometimes they're the victims and sometimes they're

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Speaker 2: the villains in the same way way that like, you know,

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Speaker 2: zombies were regular people before they were bitten by another zombie.

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Speaker 3: R hurt people, hurt people, this idea of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and then horror just as a as a

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Speaker 2: as a genre has always been used as a metaphor, right,

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Speaker 2: like most people I think at this point of seeing

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Speaker 2: get out I would I could use like other classics,

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Speaker 2: but you know, get Out is obviously a metaphor for racism.

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Speaker 3: Uh So I was Dawn of the Dead.

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Speaker 2: Uh and there and and and like it follows was

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Speaker 2: definitely an examination of sex and STIs And I think

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Speaker 2: that it's really interesting to me that this genre gets

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Speaker 2: used as a metaphor and I wanted to do the

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Speaker 2: same and the idea of the final girl.

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Speaker 3: Carol Clover came up with that term because male.

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Speaker 2: Audience, well audiences in general, don't identify with scared men.

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Speaker 2: So in order for a horror movie to work, we

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Speaker 2: need to root for the person who survives, right, right,

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Speaker 2: And if you think about your favorite horror movie or

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Speaker 2: a horror movie that you know, if you don't like horror,

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Speaker 2: think about the survivor. It's generally a woman. Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: final girl, the girl who survives in the end. And

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Speaker 2: that's because the movie doesn't work if it's a man,

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Speaker 2: because audience. She noticed that audiences didn't really relate to

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Speaker 2: a scared or screaming or terrified male. They were more

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Speaker 2: apt to relate to the killer. And that just doesn't

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Speaker 2: work in terms of like the filmmaker needs you to

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Speaker 2: root for the person who's going to survive, and that

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Speaker 2: I think says volumes about the book about dating, about everything,

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Speaker 2: and just like how we as a society view gender

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Speaker 2: and sexuality and relationships and marriage. And once I started

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Speaker 2: to dig into that, I really realized, like personally, a

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Speaker 2: lot of my problems stemmed from the fact that I

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Speaker 2: grew up in a really complicated patriarchal society where like

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Speaker 2: bubblegum misogyny was like peaking when I was coming into

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Speaker 2: my sexuality. It was very confusing, this idea of like

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Speaker 2: what it means to be a woman, what it means

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Speaker 2: to be a sexy woman, or wanted, what successful relationships

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Speaker 2: look like, just marriage, kids, all of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a really interesting thing to think about,

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Speaker 1: Like this notion of being wanted, Like of all the

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Speaker 1: words that you just said to me, that jumps out

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Speaker 1: because we grew up in the era where like the

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Speaker 1: greatest thing you could be was chosen. Oh, we were

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Speaker 1: never taught so dark.

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Speaker 2: To choose yes, And that has been Like I would say,

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Speaker 2: there are a handful of things that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do with my book, and one of the at the

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Speaker 2: very top was to teach women stop trying to be

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Speaker 2: chosen and learn how to choose, because you really are

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Speaker 2: the decision maker, even though we grew up in a

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Speaker 2: world that has like conditioned you to believe that you

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Speaker 2: need to be picked. Yeah, everything from like the way

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Speaker 2: that dating books speak to women. Why do men love bitches?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't give a I don't like,

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Speaker 2: I don't care. Like I stopped trying to perform for

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Speaker 2: men right Like that is the thing that just drove

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Speaker 2: me nuts. Like I looked at all of these dating

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Speaker 2: books and realized they all had that in common. It

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Speaker 2: was like predicated on the belief that women needed to

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Speaker 2: be a certain way in order to get the love

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Speaker 2: that they wanted.

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Speaker 3: And I just fundamentally don't believe that's true. But where

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Speaker 3: do you think the shift came from in me?

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Speaker 1: Or Yeah, because we've all listen, like our group of friends,

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Speaker 1: our generation, our friends' friends, everyone is having to, as

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Speaker 1: you said earlier, unlearn a lot. And I know I

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Speaker 1: said this to you recently, but you know, personal example,

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Speaker 1: for the friends at home, I realized, even when I

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Speaker 1: thought I was choosing for a lot of my life,

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Speaker 1: I was choosing from the options I was given. It

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Speaker 1: was very much like here's four works, pick one, and

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Speaker 1: like there's a whole ikia full of forks, Like there's

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of forks. What do you mean I

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Speaker 1: get to choose from four?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like, I think sometimes in our generation, certainly what we've

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Speaker 1: believed were our choices were also kind of an illusion.

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Speaker 3: So we seek out what's familiar.

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Speaker 2: And when you grow up in a world that is

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Speaker 2: only showing you certain types of love, it might be

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Speaker 2: hard to imagine that there's a.

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Speaker 3: Different love outside of that.

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Speaker 2: And I think the more that I learned about, like neuroplasticity,

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Speaker 2: brain chemistry, rewiring your I call them inner demons because

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Speaker 2: that fits with the book, but some people call them

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Speaker 2: limiting beliefs, the negative thoughts that hold you back the

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Speaker 2: story that you're telling yourself. A lot of that stuff

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Speaker 2: is predicated on like experiences you had, but also what

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Speaker 2: you grew up with, and part of it is giving

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Speaker 2: your brain new data, new information to create new beliefs, right,

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Speaker 2: So I think it's a little bit of that. And

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Speaker 2: then also it was recent it was me realizing like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: women have had fifty years of financial and bodily autonomy,

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Speaker 2: financial freedom and bodily autonomy and that has like had

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Speaker 2: cataclysmic results in both good and bad ways. I mean

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Speaker 2: like bad depending on who you are. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're a man that is under the men really don't

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Speaker 2: like it, and you're single, you know, and you are

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Speaker 2: claiming male loneliness epidemic, then yeah, I can understand why

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Speaker 2: you might be bummed. But like, in the seventies, ninety

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Speaker 2: percent of women in their thirties were married, and now

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Speaker 2: thirty percent I think maybe it's thirty two thirty thirty

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Speaker 2: two percent, So you're telling me in fifty years close

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Speaker 2: to sixty percent of women decided I'm good on marriage.

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Speaker 3: Guys. There's that.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, those are crazy numbers. Yeah, And so I

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Speaker 2: think there's like a huge shift. And I credit a

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Speaker 2: lot of it to my parents and therapy and introspection

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Speaker 2: and just curiosity. Yeah, and also kepting my ass handed

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the things that as your friend,

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Speaker 1: I'm also so impressed by, and like I get that clenchy, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there are things you put in this book. It's so

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Speaker 1: funny and it's so painful, and it's so eye opening

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Speaker 1: and it's so vulnerable, Like.

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Speaker 3: Was it so scary?

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Speaker 1: How did you decide what went in the book? Like

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Speaker 1: walk us through how this happens. You start to realize, Okay,

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Speaker 1: the way we talk about these things, the weird mementomory

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Speaker 1: of love and dating and all of it really does

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Speaker 1: sound like a horror movie. We've all been in the

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Speaker 1: horror movies. Like when the idea starts to crystallize, how

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Speaker 1: do you actually begin this and how do you decide

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Speaker 1: what to put in the book.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting because when I first said the idea,

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Speaker 2: I told my manager who's no longer my manager, and

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Speaker 2: he did didn't get it, and.

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Speaker 3: I tried to.

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Speaker 2: I tried to talk about it to a couple of

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Speaker 2: people and they didn't get it. And it made me realize, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm really going to have to to like dig deep

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Speaker 2: and figure out a way to make this crystal clear,

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Speaker 2: because like I felt it, I saw it, but I

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Speaker 2: couldn't articulate it in a way that it lead the

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Speaker 2: people were gravitating toward or understanding interesting. So that was

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Speaker 2: like part one. And then I just started writing and

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was going to be, and

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Speaker 2: it was just like a collection of stories. And then

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Speaker 2: I worked with my friend Sophie Flack, who sometimes works

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Speaker 2: with people on books, like on a book by book basis,

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Speaker 2: and I had this essay that is now Monsters about

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Speaker 2: how I went on a very bad date to Halloween

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Speaker 2: horror Night and I realized that, like, and I hate

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Speaker 2: being scared because I have, I've been attacked. So the

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Speaker 2: thought of like paying a bunch of money to recreate

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Speaker 2: that trauma, like literal worst nightmare and what. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the guy that I was dating was like, I'll be

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Speaker 2: there for like a whole your hand, It'll be fine whatever,

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, I was at a phase of my

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Speaker 2: life where being single seems scarier than Halloween hornites. So

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Speaker 2: I just did it, and like that's on me, That

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Speaker 2: really is on me. That's on being a blonde in

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Speaker 2: the horror movie. So I like kept walking down that

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Speaker 2: dark hallway and then what he left me, Like he

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Speaker 2: left me I had to walk through the park by myself.

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Speaker 2: The experience was so horrific, so traumatic. The biggest monster

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Speaker 2: was one hundred percent my date. But the scariest thing

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Speaker 2: was like how much of a willing participant I was.

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Speaker 2: And in writing about this, Sophie was like, this could

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Speaker 2: be the whole book, and I knew that that wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: But as I was driving like one day, it just

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Speaker 2: hit and it just kind of all crystallized. And then

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Speaker 2: it was just cataloging the stories and figuring out, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is this this is this monster.

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Speaker 3: These are these stories, and like, these.

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Speaker 2: Are these lessons and this is what I can give

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Speaker 2: to people. And when I wrote it, I honestly made

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Speaker 2: a rule that like I was going to write it

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Speaker 2: as if no one was ever going to read it

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Speaker 2: and be as honest and vulnerable, because what's the point

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Speaker 2: like for me, Like I didn't write this book for

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Speaker 2: any other reason than I really did genuinely want to

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Speaker 2: help people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can't like hold back.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's so hard though. Yeah, And now a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors who make this show possible. There's a

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Speaker 1: few things I think about. There's like a few buckets

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Speaker 1: of experience. There's the one weird thing where for some reason,

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Speaker 1: as women were supposed to just like get over everything,

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Speaker 1: but also everything that happens to you shapes you.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Then there's this idea that if you have done the

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Speaker 1: work to actually get over something and you are reflective

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Speaker 1: about it, that like you're not letting it go or

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Speaker 1: you're obsessed and you're like, no, I've literally processed it.

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Speaker 1: I can talk about it like a grocery list, like

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Speaker 1: I'm giving you my grocery list. And then there's also

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Speaker 1: there's the fear I think of letting people into heartache, hurt,

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Speaker 1: and on top of that vulnerability. It's part of the

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Speaker 1: key to me is in what you just said about

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Speaker 1: going to that Halloween horrorights, it's oh, I was a

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Speaker 1: willing participant in this.

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Speaker 3: That's the worst part.

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Speaker 1: Like the worst part is having to go, oh, I

403
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Speaker 1: ignored my gut when or I got talked into compromising

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Speaker 1: because that's the mature thing to do, and really I

405
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Speaker 1: was compromising myself.

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Speaker 3: Like what I've had.

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Speaker 1: To realize going through my own version of your book,

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Speaker 1: reading your book, and you know, going through life is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have to own where I put up with that.

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Speaker 1: I have to own where I let myself be treated

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Speaker 1: that way. I have to own where I went back

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Speaker 1: for more thinking I could fix it, and like I

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Speaker 1: was a participant in my own erasure or torture or

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Speaker 1: silence or harm. Yeah, even even sometimes just being good,

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Speaker 1: like being a good girl.

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Speaker 3: Which is a huge thing for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing is, though, it's like, so accountability

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Speaker 2: is like one of the absolute superpowers of any final Girl.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, anybody can be a final girl.

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Speaker 3: That's the genderless title in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is is that on the other side

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Speaker 2: of realizing your participation is the the answer. And it's like, underneath,

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Speaker 2: you know, wanting to be good is probably I'm just

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna just like I guess, wanting to be loved,

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Speaker 2: And then underneath that is that love is conditional.

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Speaker 3: And when you realize, oh I have a fear that love.

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Speaker 2: Is conditional, you can work on that. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: have love it. Love is conditional. Was it is a

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Speaker 2: thing for me, But it was more in being good

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Speaker 2: enough and being hot enough or pretty enough or palatable enough,

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Speaker 2: like all of these things. So the thing is is

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Speaker 2: if you don't take the accountability piece, which is very

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Speaker 2: hard and very embarrassing, like there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: very embarrassing things that I did and wrote about. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that's because if I share my embarrassing things, maybe

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Speaker 2: you'll share your embarrassing things.

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Speaker 3: And then and then no one has to be embarrassed.

438
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: A and B, then you can do something with it, Like,

439
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: you know, if you're if if you're so afraid of

440
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: being the villain and someone else's story or being the

441
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: villain in your story, then like you might never actually

442
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: get to heal, And then.

443
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: What's the pointof Well, you make a lot of points

444
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: in this book, my dear. One of the things I

445
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: think is really interesting about it is you go so

446
00:23:54,560 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: far to deconstruct shame your own and how as readers,

447
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: and to encourage us to do the same as you

448
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: were just saying. I like that you talk not just

449
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: about like surviving the horrors, but you talk about thriving

450
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: in a modern love landscape. So doing this kind of inventory,

451
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: taking this kind of accountability, also reading some people for

452
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: philth who deserved it. How do you now think about love?

453
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: Like to you on the other side of all of this,

454
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: what is a modern love landscape?

455
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 3: Oh that's so interesting.

456
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: Well, I think the crazy thing about that is that

457
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: my answer will be different than yours, which will be

458
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: different than anybody's. And like, that's the most important part

459
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: is that instead of growing up in a world where

460
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: we were all taught like love looks like this and

461
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: this is what is successful that ultimately it's about really

462
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: going inward and figuring out, like, what is your version of.

463
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 3: Happily ever after? Hey, that would be my official answer.

464
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I think, like for me personally, like

465
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: I grew up with parents who are still married, you know.

466
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 3: I grew up with the father who.

467
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: Comes home with flowers just because he wants to make

468
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: my mom happy, and who on their twenty fifth wedding

469
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: anniversary reproposed with the ring twice the size and asked

470
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: for another twenty five years of marriage without anyone's help. Like,

471
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: I also grew up with the man that gave my

472
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: mom a salary to be a mom. You know. I

473
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: grew up in a really traditional, meet very progressive household.

474
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

475
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: So my ideas of love and feminism are a little

476
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: like different, and I one hundred percent believe it's out there.

477
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: I know that it exists, and I will say that

478
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: after writing this book, I do think that my relationships

479
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: have improved and I haven't had any kind of like

480
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: horrifying stories since.

481
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 3: I love that you.

482
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: Say this has really changed the trajectory of your dating life. Hmmm,

483
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: it's like that thing about you can't like you can't

484
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: heal what you can't see, and I think.

485
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 3: Can't tame what you can't name. Yes, I like, I.

486
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: Think you writing this book was such an excavation of self.

487
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm curious why on the other side of it, you

488
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: think that heartbreak can be the best thing that's ever

489
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: happened to you.

490
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: Because you'll never have more inertia in your life than

491
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: after you have your heart broken. And sometimes like we

492
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: fail to start over and we need someone to restart us,

493
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 2: like it's a full reboote. And I think that when

494
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: you can understand that life happens for you, not to you,

495
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: you can start to really rewrite your own story and

496
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: like step into your power in your future.

497
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: But again, that's so much.

498
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: Easier to do when you have like all of the

499
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: momentum and inertia that heartbreak brings. Like nothing will level

500
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: set your life in that way. That's it's it's a

501
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: kind of loss. And like heartbreak also goes with death, right,

502
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: Like you can feel heartbroken. Sometimes breakups are because they've

503
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: quite literally left earth, we don't necessarily call them breakups,

504
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: but like that is a part of it, right, Yeah,

505
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: And you are never going to love without loss. That's

506
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: the that's the gamble. Yeah, and just knowing that it's

507
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: an opportunity, it's an opportunity to like reset, and we

508
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 2: would never choose that because as humans were wired for comfort. Yes,

509
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: so you're never going to like decide to throw yourself

510
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: into the most uncomfortable, destabilizing circumstances of your life.

511
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: But if you can get on board with that, you'll

512
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 3: the most powerful.

513
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: Changes on the other side of that. And I think

514
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: that that's really exciting, which is not to like toxic positivity,

515
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: like a terrible situation. Yeah, obviously it can still suck

516
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: and it can be awful, but you can take the

517
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: suck and the awful and turn it into something that

518
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: becomes your whole life. Like I never would have written

519
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: this book if I hadn't had my heart broken. And

520
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: that's not because of what the contents of that book.

521
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: It's that like, right before we met, I thought I

522
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: was getting married and spoiler that did not.

523
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: That did not happen.

524
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 2: But in the aftermath of what was arguably one of

525
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: the most traumatic experiences of my life, I wrote my

526
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: first short film and I had been in music. Yeah,

527
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: and I had a whole career writing in TV and

528
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: books and all of this other stuff that I never

529
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: would have had.

530
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably would have stayed writing music and that

531
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: would have been or.

532
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: Who knows thats what I would have done, But like

533
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't made you. I mean, I don't know

534
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: who I would have missed out on mee day, missed

535
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: out on dating. I was also like at a film

536
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: festival for that short film that I made that I

537
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: met my next boyfriend who I dated and lived with

538
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: for like three years and who isn't in this book

539
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: because he's not a monster. And you know what I mean, Like,

540
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: there's there's so many things that came from that that

541
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: never would have happened.

542
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: Like I just I just wouldn't be here.

543
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a really good lens because

544
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, when when we talked at the top of

545
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: the hour about how it's kind of hard to look

546
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: at our sweet little, pure, never heartbroken selves, it's also

547
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: like the things that happened do propel you into purpose,

548
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: into a future that was more meant for you. And

549
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I think, like, oh, it would have

550
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: been nice if it didn't have to be so intense,

551
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: Like I would have preferred to have not been dragged

552
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: here like the PG version. But at the same time,

553
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: it's like I also, I think when you're really happy

554
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 1: where you you are, you wouldn't want to risk missing

555
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: it to like fix something before you know, I don't know.

556
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: It's something I sort of toy with a lot. I

557
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: try to figure out the things that are still the

558
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: hardest for me to think about or.

559
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: Carry.

560
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: Like I every so often I'm like, if I can

561
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: figure out a way to be thankful for that, if

562
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: I can figure out a way to understand that, like

563
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: it is part of the sum total of what's good. Also,

564
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: it's like it's sort of a tortuous exercise, but I

565
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: do try.

566
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: It's yes, And Okay, everybody that's listening right now, think

567
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: of one thing that you've wanted to change.

568
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: There's something, there's something that you want to change.

569
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: It's either a skill you want to learn, something about yourself,

570
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: a work thing, a friend thing. And I'm talking about

571
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: the thing that you've actually wanted to do this whole year,

572
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: maybe the last five years, maybe the last ten years.

573
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: Well, why haven't you done it? Yeah, that's not a judgment.

574
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: That's just a Sometimes breakup sometimes that hurt, that pain

575
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: can be the catalyst to finally do the thing.

576
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's I think what we're speaking about.

577
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: That like pain is awful and growth is really hard,

578
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: and nobody's going to actively choose that. Yeah, but when

579
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: you're given Oh it's like that Mary oli our poem,

580
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: like I realize one box of darkness. I realized that

581
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: too is a gift. And it's like that, that's what

582
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: that's what we're talking about.

583
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it's it's big stuff. It's like it's

584
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: heavy and.

585
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: And we're not taught at I wasn't.

586
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: Uh, not at all. We are taught to model things

587
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: that aren't even real half the time, like I and I,

588
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think about this all the time. Like

589
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: I pursued a perfect model of what I thought happiness

590
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: was to fix what I'd missed in my life and

591
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: my childhood and to like keel my you know, generational

592
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: inheritances and whatever. And then I was like, oh, this

593
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: is this isn't that, this is this is actually more

594
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: of what I was trying to heal. And it was

595
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: a very traumatic. I don't want to like use the

596
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: trauma word too much. It was a very unsettling, like

597
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: it was sort of like being in an earthquake on

598
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: the inside. You know, it really destabilizing, Yes, very destabilizing,

599
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: very confusing, and also really profound. And I needed to

600
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: know that the thing I had subconsciously, you know, in

601
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: conditioning and all of it believed was the answer.

602
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: Wasn't that?

603
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Like that my joy is the only answer, Like, the

604
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: only thing that's going to bring joy into my life

605
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: is actually finding joy. I can't build it. I have

606
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: to find it. Yeah, you know you can. You can

607
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: work toward it, you but you have to like, you

608
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: can't build it like you can build a house. It's

609
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: not a thing.

610
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 3: Oh, I know, I've tried. Oh haven't we tried?

611
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: And that it's It's something I love about you and

612
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: I love about our friendship is I can have the

613
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: deepest conversations with you and also the most inappropriate, hilarious.

614
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 3: Conversations with you.

615
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: Like there are things I have said to Rory you

616
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: guys that I'm like, well, we're carrying this to the grave,

617
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: And you have a term in your book that makes

618
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: me cackle. So for our friends that are like, give

619
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: me a moment of levity, please, can you talk to

620
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: people about the perils of dixand oh oh yes, yes,

621
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: tell the people what Dick Sand is.

622
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So Dick Sand there's a whole chapter in the book.

623
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: And I feel like I grew up like obsessed with

624
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: quicksand thinking like, oh got at any moment, the world

625
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: underneath me could just like sink. And then I found

626
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: out now when I was writing this book that it's

627
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,479
Speaker 2: actually not real, Like you won't die in quicksand unless

628
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: you appen to get in quicksand in a flood or

629
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: something like crazy like that. It's just not something that

630
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: you're going to die from. But Dick Sand might kill you.

631
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: Dickxand is the relationship equivalent of that. So I talk

632
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: about the four different types, and it's like textual relationships

633
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: any kind of digmatization, chronic breakups, things like that. So

634
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: relationships that keep you stagnant, like forward motion progress is

635
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: the goal. And look, sometimes you want to date somebody

636
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: just because you want to date somebody, and like that's fine.

637
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: But if you are saying that knowing that you also

638
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: actually do want to like have kids or get married

639
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: or move in together, and you're in this casual thing, well,

640
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: like that's you're actually not in alignment.

641
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 3: And what you're doing is just wasting time.

642
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and nothing hurts more than getting out of a

643
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: situationship and looking back and being like, wow, that.

644
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 3: Was too years of my life that most crazy. Huh.

645
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: I can't get those two years back.

646
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors that thing

647
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: you said to the chronic breakups, like, I don't.

648
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: I'm really trying.

649
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: To think of if I know anyone who's gone through

650
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: a breakup and then gone back and been happy about it.

651
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: I can think of one person.

652
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, yeah, there's always an exception to one person. Yes, yes,

653
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: it's like but rarely. And think about this. There is

654
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 2: a protocol for when you break your arm, right, yeah,

655
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: you said it, and it heals, and if it doesn't,

656
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: then it's a chronic break Now, I'm like, if a

657
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: doctor is listening to this, they're going to be like,

658
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 2: this is not really the terms that we use, because

659
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 2: my sister who's an NP, was like, that's not super accurate.

660
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: It's just like let me go, please, yeah, please please.

661
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: But if something isn't making progress healing within five to

662
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: six weeks, it's considered like problematic. And I think the

663
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: same thing is true of breakups. And actually studies show

664
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: that the initial sting wears off around six weeks. But

665
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: we don't have like a proto call for how to

666
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 2: set a broken heart. We don't have like standard procedures.

667
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 2: I think no contact is like really important. I think

668
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 2: like you have to I talk about throwing a funeral

669
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: and building some of these systems in place to help

670
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: you heal, because otherwise it does become kind of infected,

671
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: it does become this like malignant chronic break, and it'll

672
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: create like a deformity on your heart. But think about it,

673
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: like we don't really have You have to be your

674
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: own kind of physician and the person that is setting

675
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: your emotional heartbreak because otherwise, like your brain wants to

676
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: protect you from making the same mistake. Yes, so it

677
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: will repeat memories and stories.

678
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: And if you got ghosted, well that's.

679
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 2: Even that's even worse because you're going to be trying

680
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: to search for an answer or reason why something that

681
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: you missed, which is really just like a lot of

682
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: self torture. Because the reality is like when somebody ghosts,

683
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: it's never a reflection of you. It's always a reflection

684
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 2: of them. It's their inability to have an uncomfortable conversation,

685
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 2: which is truly tragic. That's why we're in a communication crisis.

686
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 2: Like you got to be able to have uncomfortable conversations

687
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: even if this isn't the person you want to be with.

688
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: Well, what happens when you are with the person you

689
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: want to be with?

690
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: But you've practiced, because all relationships are as practice, And

691
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: so if the way that you practice is by ghosting

692
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: or avoiding, that's only going to be perpetuated in the

693
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: relationships that you actually do care about. Anyway, I have

694
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: like really sidetracked, But no.

695
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 3: I love that.

696
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: But how do you think how do people start? Like

697
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: how do you start learning to really speak up? Because

698
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: I know, at least for women, you know, we're always

699
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: so worried about like saying too many things, having too

700
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: many complaints.

701
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 3: Being a nag, like those sort of tropes.

702
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: So like having done as much research as you have

703
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: and having had as many experiences as you have, like,

704
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: how do you encourage people to start shifting those paradigms.

705
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 2: So first it's like with yourself. You can practice with

706
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: yourself before you practice with others. I in the advice

707
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: part of Werewolves, it's I talk about like agency and

708
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: learning how to say no. And for some people who

709
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: are really like huge, huge people pleasers, which this relates

710
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: to having uncomfortable conversations, but huge people pleasers, just saying

711
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: no when somebody asks you do you want to receive

712
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: or would you.

713
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 3: Like to see a dessert menu? That might feel really risky,

714
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: so start there.

715
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: For other people, it might be a lie more advanced,

716
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: like when your coworkers ask you to go get drinks

717
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: after or your friend says, hey, do you want to

718
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: get dinner or something. Learning how to say no to

719
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: people that you care about or dynamics that feel kind

720
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: of scary, and just practicing that muscle. And maybe you

721
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: need to have a script like an actor where you

722
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: recite the lines until it's like in your bones, in

723
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: your body. There's different kind of tactics to practice that.

724
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: And then I think, you know, bravery encourage is a muscle. Yeah,

725
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: you're not going to build it like overnight. I mean

726
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: I wish, but it's it's just small steps incrementally. So

727
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: it is identifying I feel really uncomfortable in this relationship,

728
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 2: whether it's a friendship or a romantic situation, and getting

729
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: really clear with yourself, like you don't need the other person.

730
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: To do that. Why and what is it And if.

731
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: I could take all of the repercussions off the table,

732
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: what is it that I would say and write that

733
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: down and then think about whether or not you have

734
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: the car to say that, and if you do, do

735
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: your best to try and put it into like an

736
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 2: eye statement and not use statements, and do your best

737
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: to shift it so that you take all of the

738
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: vulnerability and the accountability. Where I could say, like, it

739
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 2: really makes me uncomfortable when or I know this wasn't personal,

740
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 2: but it really hurt my feelings when I wasn't invited

741
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: to this thing and I saw you with all of

742
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: our friends and I just I know that that's probably silly,

743
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: but I wanted to express that because it's how I've

744
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: been feeling, you know, and I love you, and it.

745
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: Just makes me feel bad. Sometimes, Yeah, that.

746
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 2: Could be scary, but also then you give that person

747
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: the opportunity to say, oh my gosh, actually that was

748
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: like really last minute, we didn't even plan that.

749
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 3: And by the way, this is truly off the top

750
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: of my head.

751
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: I have no idea that scenario might sound silly or

752
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: stupid to somebody, but you, sometimes we rob our friendships

753
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: and our relationships the opportunity to show up for us

754
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: because we're too afraid to say the thing that is scary.

755
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

756
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really big lesson. Is not

757
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: wanting to be a bother can actually be such an isolating.

758
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: Behavior because bother to who? Yeah, you don't know if

759
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: it bothers me at all?

760
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

761
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: Right, it's so interesting And I think you know, certainly

762
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: true in friendships, certainly something that needs practice to your

763
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 1: point in relationships, Like, what do you think that is about?

764
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: Do you think the fear of speaking up or expressing

765
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: need falls under that the less I need the more

766
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: the more I might be chosen, the more appealing I

767
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: might be.

768
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I have like a kind of a hot

769
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: take that I think is I don't know, maybe will

770
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: be disagree, disagree if you'd like.

771
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: I just think that women have been conditioned to.

772
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 2: Be palatable to men and to perform a certain way

773
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: in order to be loved, and that I do think

774
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: marriage is dei for men, or has been for a

775
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: really long time. That's not to say that it can't

776
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 2: be great or that you can't have a great one.

777
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: And like, yeah, honestly good on you, Like that's so amazing.

778
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: But I really do think that just even in the

779
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: way that like think about rom coms, what do all

780
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: rom coms have in common? Well, somebody does something kind

781
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 2: of messed up and they break up, and then one

782
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: of them makes a grand gesture, realizes they can't live

783
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: without each other, and they get back together.

784
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: So what does that do.

785
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 2: It's basically conditioned us for romantic disappointment, for romantic pain.

786
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to excuse it. Yeah.

787
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: And I know that that, Like there's various realm comms

788
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: where maybe that doesn't make sense, but also just the

789
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: trope of like you can be successful in work but

790
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: not in love, and those things kind of like get

791
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: into our brain and that becomes information that we store

792
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: and it plays into stories that we have. So then

793
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: maybe you're a boss at work, but you've had trouble

794
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: with your romantic life, and then all of a sudden

795
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: you're like, well, see, I guess I'm just that girl

796
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: yeap when that girl was written by a bunch of

797
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 2: men in a writer's room, you know, forty years ago.

798
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: Like it's just yes, I really do think that a

799
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: lot of it is conditioning, Like the whole idea of

800
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: what a slut is the fact that we don't have

801
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: there's a himbo.

802
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: But like other than that, it's really like a word

803
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 3: for that.

804
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: You're a boss, you're a player, you know, and those

805
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: are seen as good things. But for a woman, you're

806
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 2: run through, you're a whore, you're used up like trashy,

807
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: all of these things.

808
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: Why do you think we're taught to fear slueds? Do

809
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: you think that that's just men because it's running your

810
00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: cabric of the patriarchy, say more about it.

811
00:43:59,000 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 3: It just does.

812
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: I mean, chastity has its roots in religion and on

813
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: agriculture really.

814
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: And agriculture and the fabric of society.

815
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: I mean, the whole idea of the Salem witch trials

816
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: goes back to, yes, agriculture, but also the patriarchy. The puritanical,

817
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: patriarchal nature of the society at that time was being

818
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: threatened by outside stressors like smallpox, famine, and indigenous people

819
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: were finally fighting back against colonization, and so it was

820
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: weakening those structures. So then all of a sudden anybody

821
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 2: could claim which and they did, and that tightened the

822
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: women have always paid the price and they'd take their land, and.

823
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: Then they would take their land.

824
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: And that's how the agricul Yes, that's how the agricultural

825
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 2: piece fits into it. But women have always paid the

826
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: price for the shortcomings of the patriarchy.

827
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 3: And I think we've really seen that a lot in sexuality.

828
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so if women are made to feel shame

829
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: and made to feel smaller around sexuality, it's easier to control.

830
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: Because also, if you can control the birth rate, you

831
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: can control the economy. If you can't control the birth rate,

832
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: you can't control the economy. So a lot of the

833
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: things that we feel are so much bigger than just

834
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: the shame of like the Walk of shame, right, the

835
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 2: Walk of shame is about the larger structures of society

836
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: staying in place. It is about the economy, It is

837
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: about the patriarchy. And I know that that sounds so hyperbolic,

838
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: but it's the truth. And I think once you understand that,

839
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you have to like rail against it.

840
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: And like, here's the thing, I still want to get married.

841
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 2: Is that like the dumbest financial decision of my life?

842
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

843
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: Probably, whatever, I mean, Like, ask any divorce lawyer. They'll

844
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, it's really not a smart move.

845
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 3: Still, I still believe in love.

846
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: I still believe in all of these things, but I

847
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: come at it from a totally different perspective. And I

848
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 2: refuse to be held in a prison that is shame

849
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,919
Speaker 2: because that shame isn't mine. Yeah, I collected that from

850
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: other people, from other stories, that those aren't mine.

851
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: Well, other people put it around your neck. I will

852
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: never forget this. I interviewed Monica Lewinsky recently, and she

853
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: is so lovely. Oh yeah, like, she's so lovely and god,

854
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: I enjoy her company. And I was reading a bunch

855
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: of older articles trying to kind of contextualize what it

856
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: was like before I knew her, and how the world

857
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: treats her. And she had written an article for Vanity

858
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: Fair and she talked about how people will hang she

859
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: called it the scarlet albatross around your neck, and once

860
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 1: they've put it there, it's almost impossible to take it off.

861
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: And she's done an incredible job at removing that. But

862
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: society also finally started to catch up.

863
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: Well, yes, and society has started to catch up and

864
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: has started to say, oh, we treat women so terribly,

865
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: all of them, by the way, and that is a

866
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: universal truth. And there's also a reality that if she

867
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: starts doing too well for society's liking, they bring it

868
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: up about her down. Yes, if someone has a big

869
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: successful moment, let's bring up this sty thing a man

870
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: did to her, or that she was put through or

871
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: And now I'm talking about you know, so many more

872
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: of us, and I think that there's something. I just

873
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: think that there's something about it. It's not the job

874
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: we should be doing, having to refuse other people's shame,

875
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: but it is I think incredibly important work for us

876
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: to do, and for more and more women to do,

877
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: to maybe turn the tides.

878
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 2: I have my brain is like I want to say

879
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: four hundred things at one time. That's not going to

880
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 2: be humanly possible. I think that if you don't push

881
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: through shame, you're going to have a really hard time

882
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 2: accessing your pleasure.

883
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 3: So that's a conversation about sex.

884
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: I think that we were raised and taught to blame

885
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: other women for men's behavior. I certainly was. It's the

886
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: idea of a Monica Lewinsky. It's the idea of a

887
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 2: fem fatale getting government secrets out of men.

888
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: The thought of you know, which is like just all

889
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 3: of that.

890
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 2: And I think we also live in a world where

891
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: everything is driven by clicks, and that is kind of

892
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: not the most important, but the most salacious tag of

893
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 2: her life. Yes, and so I think there's so many things.

894
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,479
Speaker 1: It's happening people can use her for for one hundred

895
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: percent gain. And like there's someone in our industry who

896
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: has a you know, big show, series of shows that like,

897
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: I just won't do anymore because it was a not

898
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: once but twice, and I was like, there are so

899
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: many more interesting things about me than something a guide

900
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: did to me once.

901
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: I am not.

902
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: I just won't be in this environment anymore. And I

903
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: think shifting those things, like you said it, we're taught

904
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: to fear or obsess about, or villainize women the other

905
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: woman rather than the man making the decision. I mean,

906
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: we just yeah, we just had like a wild holiday

907
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: when a friend of ours realized that another woman in

908
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 1: like part of my story is in the friend group

909
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: and in my house at the holiday party. I love

910
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: our friendship. I love the friendship we've built, and I

911
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: love that the two of us got to undo mm

912
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: hmm what we were put through when we were young.

913
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't have to be like this, No,

914
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: it doesn't. She was a kid, yeah, and I was

915
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: essentially a kid. Yeah, and all these years later, like

916
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: we have a friendship and I get to see her

917
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: baby all the time, and I love it.

918
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 3: Right, she was never the bad guy, right.

919
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: But she was the bad guy for a certain period

920
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: of time because that is what we were taught. Yeah,

921
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: there's a woman right now that has been ordered to

922
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: pay I believe it's it's either one point twenty five

923
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: or one point seventy five million dollars in North Carolina

924
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 2: because she is a home wrecker. Oh how much is

925
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: the man ordered to pay? You might ask zero dollars?

926
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: So no, yeah, this is you can google it.

927
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 3: This is. I did not make this up.

928
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: I couldn't even fathom this because there is like a

929
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: home wrecker law in North Carolina. And I think that

930
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: says it all right, that it's easier to blame the

931
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 2: other woman than the man.

932
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: Is you if you can take my man, he is

933
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 3: not my man. Yep.

934
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: You cannot wreck a home that was never fully built. Nope,

935
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: if if, if you can take it, if it, if

936
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: it walks freely. You can't steal something that walks away freely.

937
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: So this idea that it's the other woman, just in

938
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 2: the same way that like, I should be able to

939
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: walk out of the iHeart building into Burbank fully naked

940
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 2: and not be assaulted.

941
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: Right, I should be able to.

942
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: Hit on some guy and him not and not not

943
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: to be perceived as me trying to steal him. Like

944
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: he assuming that he's you know, I don't know, he's

945
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: married whatever.

946
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 3: Well, yeah he should. He is a contract with the

947
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: other woman. Yeah, he's got.

948
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: Enough agency to say, oh, thanks for the compliment, I'm

949
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: not available, correct and move on with his dead.

950
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 3: Move on with his dad. You're not a magician, you're

951
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 3: not a hypnotist.

952
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: But also, like my assuming that she's not your best

953
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 2: friend or that there's something else going there, Like, it

954
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: is really hard to into the eyes of a person

955
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 2: you loved and trusted and to realize that they did

956
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 2: you dirty.

957
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 3: It is a lot easier to be like that whore,

958
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 3: that bitch, that skink.

959
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: It feels easier, and we were conditioned to do it,

960
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: so I understand why it happens. I just think we're

961
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: so much better than that, and we have to get

962
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: to a point where, like we don't blame other women

963
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: for men's behavior.

964
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Do you

965
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: think part of the reason though, that people get so

966
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: obsessed with like and listen, whether it's the man behavedly

967
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: and when cheated and by the way, told that other

968
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: woman some crazy story sure clearly, or some version of

969
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: a story that ain't true, whether it's that where it's

970
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: like to your point, relationship, it's ending like staying too

971
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: long and realizing you shouldn't have whatever.

972
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 3: Do you think part of the.

973
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: Reason that there's so much volatility around endings is because

974
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: we've we've been so conditioned to think that a relationship

975
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: is is a measure of our value, like, oh, I'm

976
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 1: worthy of this, so if it goes away, I'm less valuable.

977
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 2: Do you know what the definition of a spinster is.

978
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: It's just an unmarried woman in her thirties who makes

979
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: her own money. Spinster was a financially independent woman who

980
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 2: was not married in her thirties, right, But that was

981
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: seen as a negative. So singletom has always been branded

982
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 2: as a negative. Why again, threatens the fabric of the patriarchy,

983
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 2: threatens it more.

984
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: Than a single cat lady and it's because a woman.

985
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: And by the way, it's never a single dog lady.

986
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: And it's like when you actually start to think that dogs, like,

987
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,280
Speaker 1: if you think about like a single dog lady, meetly,

988
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: picture a woman with a golden retriever. You gender that

989
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: golden retriever as a boy is a man. A single

990
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: cat lady is like a woman who has cats, cats

991
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: or feline like feminine, you know, like, oh, her and

992
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: the cat. She doesn't need anything. She doesn't think she

993
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: needs a man. She doesn't need a man.

994
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 3: She's good at home with her cats.

995
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: I also just like, I don't know why that's such

996
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: a bad thing. I don't either, And it doesn't mean

997
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 2: that you can't like I guess what the we're a

998
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: theme that we're bumping up on this conversation is, it's like,

999
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 2: it's totally not embarrassing and it's one hundred percent great

1000
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 2: cool punk rock to want love and to crave love

1001
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: and to want to be love.

1002
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 3: I get that. That's great. I'm not trying to say

1003
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 3: no to that.

1004
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: I think it's like the way that we've positioned relationships

1005
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: as being this ultimate goal, this marker of.

1006
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 3: Success, yeah, rather than a piece. It's like exactly.

1007
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: That's why I talk about never shop hungry. But but

1008
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 2: that is a construct. Yeah, we need people to get

1009
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: married and have kids for our society to be like

1010
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: functioning as it is, right, but there are like so

1011
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: many socio political roots to the way that we approach relationships,

1012
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: and when you stop to kind of deconstruct that and

1013
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 2: look at it as it's related to your own life,

1014
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,439
Speaker 2: you'll start to realize, like, there isn't anything shameful about

1015
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 2: being single. I mean, that's why we're in a single

1016
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: renaissance right now.

1017
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: It's this sort of outsized slice of pie in the

1018
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: Bye chart, and if we can shift it, things change,

1019
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: Like this idea that you're supposed to pursue something that

1020
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: like once you have everything on the checklist, you're going

1021
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: to be happy. Like I got everything on the checklist

1022
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: and I was miserable totally, like yeah I built it,

1023
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: and I went like, oh, it's but it's it's it's hollow.

1024
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: And that was really really hard and really really sad.

1025
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: Like you know, there's there's a there's an interesting thing

1026
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: about like especially going through things in public, Like God,

1027
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: I envy people who get to get divorced anonymously, but like,

1028
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: especially with women and the way they're shamed and the

1029
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: way they're judged, Like, you have to you have to

1030
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: really like hold on to the to the victory part.

1031
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 1: You have to hold on to the I chose myself

1032
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: like and yes, and that doesn't mean it wasn't absolutely

1033
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: like decimating and painful. And it literally got to a

1034
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: point where I was like, this is this is like

1035
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: my life or my death.

1036
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 2: I think there's something so sad about realizing that the

1037
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: fairy tale you were promised doesn't actually exist. That that

1038
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: is it's is hurtening. I mean that's also what men

1039
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: are going through right now.

1040
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 3: Well.

1041
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: But also I think, like to what you were saying,

1042
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: if you are thirty five and.

1043
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 3: And say single.

1044
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 2: And you feel anxious about that, Yep, you are are

1045
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 2: more likely to settle. You are far more likely to

1046
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: compromise on your boundaries. You are far more likely to

1047
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: end up in a dynamic that doesn't actually suit you.

1048
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1049
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 2: A situationship is a is a dynamic where one person

1050
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,959
Speaker 2: has a compromised sense of tety and the other person

1051
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: is a compromised sense of self worth.

1052
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we see.

1053
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: That a lot because uh, feeling less than feeling single

1054
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: and feeling less than is very scary. That that circling

1055
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 2: back around that was what that chapter Monsters is about.

1056
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: It was safer to be single and dating this guy

1057
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: who kind of sucked than it was to be single. Yeah,

1058
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 2: And that's really why, like I wrote the book, is

1059
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 2: to try and get people to realize, like you can

1060
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 2: have the relationship of your dreams.

1061
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 3: You can have the love that you want, but it

1062
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: starts with.

1063
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: You well, and it it starts with not settling one

1064
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: that I think is a really big thing. And like,

1065
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons that, aside from your brilliance,

1066
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: I cherish our friendship, like you through like everything that's

1067
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: been very hard in the last couple of years, Like

1068
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: you've been one of my best friends. That was like

1069
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: this isn't good enough for you. I remember like when

1070
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: I was like I cried in front of all the

1071
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: lesbians and like, oh my god, I like said how

1072
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: bad things are and you were like, I also think

1073
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: you're a lesbian.

1074
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 3: I was like hmm. Rory really just was like, hey, hey,

1075
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 3: I've got thoughts something I don't know.

1076
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you know, when you're you see enough relationships,

1077
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 2: you pick on certain pick up on certain dynamics, and

1078
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: I was like.

1079
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: Almost like when your friend is writing a book about

1080
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: how relationships work and studying the dynamics of love, they're

1081
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: really really smart at it.

1082
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 3: I think that's why some instincts.

1083
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: I think it's why so many people, though, are like

1084
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: relating to the book in such an intense way, like

1085
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: makes me so proud to be able to brag about you,

1086
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: because You're right, some people didn't get it, Like when

1087
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: you first had this concept, a few people were like huh,

1088
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: And within what four days of the book coming out,

1089
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: it was a bestseller in its category. I mean we

1090
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: were sobbing on.

1091
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 3: I was like on the flint face.

1092
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,479
Speaker 1: You know, It's just it's really amazing. And I really

1093
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: hope that the folks at home, if they haven't read it,

1094
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: go and get a copy of it. I I want

1095
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: to know why there's like there's seven thousand topics. Just

1096
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: like you said, like, I have four hundred things I

1097
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: want to say. I'm like, I have four hundred things

1098
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: I want to ask you questions about, but I'm also

1099
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: watching the clock. Why do you think what does it

1100
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: really mean to be your own best friend? Because the

1101
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: phrase can sound like a cliche, but the way you

1102
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: talk about it isn't.

1103
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that is a absolute mantra. I think I

1104
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 2: wrote that three times or four times in the book.

1105
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: It's a personal life mantra. And if you can take

1106
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: one thing away from this episode, be your own best friend,

1107
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: and that is think about your relationship right now and

1108
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: put your best friend in it. Your daughter, your sister,

1109
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 2: your mother. Are you rooting for them? Are you happy

1110
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 2: for them? If you are not, why and then why

1111
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 2: are you settling for something that you wouldn't want your

1112
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: best friend in? And the same thing goes for like

1113
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: when I was really go very deep on this in

1114
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: a chapter called spells, but when I was really deep

1115
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 2: into unwinding my beliefs, because I do think like the

1116
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: words words are like spells, and you have to be

1117
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 2: very careful and the way that you cast them and

1118
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: the way that most of us talk to ourselves. We

1119
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: would never let anyone else talk to our best friends

1120
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 2: like that. No, Like some of the things that I

1121
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 2: have been the biggest monster to me out of anyone

1122
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: in my love life, the person that has hurt me

1123
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: the most is me, full stop. And I think that

1124
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 2: like sometimes it helps to put another person in your

1125
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 2: shoes and someone that you deeply care about. Yeah, because

1126
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: if you would never or let somebody speak to them

1127
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 2: that way or treat them that way, why do you

1128
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: do that to yourself?

1129
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: That's an incredibly illuminating exercise. And you're right, like a

1130
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: very excellent takeaway for people. You also talk about a

1131
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: relationship graveyard. Yeah, and like why you actually have to

1132
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:22,919
Speaker 1: have one or make one?

1133
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Why?

1134
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: Well, this idea that they always come back is a

1135
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,439
Speaker 2: very popular trope in horror movies and also in love

1136
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: and dating. And that is not a flex that's a

1137
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 2: reflection of this person's selfishness and their opinions of your

1138
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 2: weak boundaries.

1139
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 3: They come back.

1140
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: Because they think they can come back and that you'll

1141
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:43,479
Speaker 2: take them.

1142
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 3: You gotta prove them wrong.

1143
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: Keep them in the graveyard. Keep them in the graveyard.

1144
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: And this is not like a casual thing. This is

1145
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: for like situationships, This is for real periods. At the

1146
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: end of sentences, you screenshot what you need, what you

1147
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: want to keep, then you delete the thread. You change

1148
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: their name to three tombstone emojis, and the more people

1149
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: get added, then you literally have no idea who they are.

1150
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: You cannot contact them, and if they hit you up,

1151
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: you have no idea which person in the graveyard they

1152
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 2: are genius, they're gone, genie.

1153
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: Because when you're dead, you're dead.

1154
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: When you're dead, to me, honey, you're success.

1155
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 3: Like you are not yet, there's no haunting me.

1156
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: No thank you, no thank you. I think being able

1157
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: to put down the ghosts, yeah, is a big deal. Yeah,

1158
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: that's that's a big one.

1159
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 2: It is a big one. And ghosting is like a

1160
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 2: true epidemic. And I obviously have a whole chapter on that.

1161
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I was ghosted by the guy who got

1162
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: me pregnant, So yeah, we talk when we talk about

1163
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: hurtful and embarrassing things, I've truly been through it. But

1164
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: I think if you are ghosted, you have to see

1165
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 2: that as a blessing because ultimately, communication is the bedrock

1166
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 2: of all great relationship and if you have somebody that

1167
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 2: can't simply have an uncomfortable conversation, that's not that's not

1168
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 2: a good foundation to build a life on.

1169
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: And by the way, to your point, I think it's

1170
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: really important to take that a step further, Like when

1171
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: I've thought about some of those dynamics or things that

1172
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: have been hurtful or ways I've hurt myself or ways

1173
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: people have hurt me, or ways I'm I've hurt people.

1174
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: It's like when you're not ready or they're not ready

1175
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: to show up in their full self, Like they're going

1176
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: through something you might be going through something they don't

1177
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: deserve you, you don't deserve them, whatever, it's. What you

1178
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: don't want is to rush a process for you or

1179
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: someone else. It's gonna be a mess. But what I

1180
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: like about your book and the way you talk about

1181
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: this stuff and the way you're shifting conversations for women

1182
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: in particular, is you're like you're defanging it a little

1183
01:03:57,960 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: bit and saying like you're good, move on.

1184
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: Rejection is protection, Oh like thousand and I think like

1185
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 2: the biggest thing is rejection is protection. But also be

1186
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: very very mindful of the stories that we write. Yeah,

1187
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 2: because there's there are the horrors that happened to you,

1188
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 2: and there are the horrors that happen inside of you.

1189
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 2: A lot of times the call is coming from inside

1190
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 2: the house and it's like, you know, two, we could

1191
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: both be in the same the same thing could happen

1192
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 2: to both of us, and we can walk away with

1193
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 2: two totally different stories. Mine could be so traumatizing and

1194
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 2: you could never think about it again. And I think, like,

1195
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: that's what's so important to me. And yes, I do.

1196
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:37,479
Speaker 2: I do write for women. I do speak to women.

1197
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 2: Like if men read the book, I love that and

1198
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 2: that's amazing. But like, I really do care about women,

1199
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 2: and that's why I get up and make content and

1200
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 2: write and do things just because I am a woman.

1201
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 2: And I feel like there's a lot of trauma that

1202
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: comes from just simply existing in a.

1203
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 3: World that was not meant for you. Yeah.

1204
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,479
Speaker 1: So, oh, honey, you know I agree with that.

1205
01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 3: I don't.

1206
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: Well, clearly, all of our listeners need to pick up

1207
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: their copy of A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors

1208
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: of Dating. You can get it at your local bookshop.

1209
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: You can order them online. Rory, Before I let you go,

1210
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: I want to know what your work in progress is.

1211
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: I have a couple things, and they are a real

1212
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: left turn. Okay, one, I really want to dial in

1213
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: on malasma and experiment. I'm experimenting with my own body.

1214
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 2: I am injecting some things currently to see about that

1215
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 2: relationship and experimenting with topicals and internal stuff. So like

1216
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 2: that is a work in progress and not something I

1217
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 2: can speak on yet, but I'm.

1218
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 3: Very very curious about.

1219
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: That because it relates to your liver and your autoimmun.

1220
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: Because I have malasma and I care so much about

1221
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 2: skin and wellness and all of that, and so that

1222
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 2: is a definite, definite work in progress. And then I

1223
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 2: am also always I've been on low dose now trek

1224
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 2: Zone for my cfsmy CFS since twenty eighteen, and I

1225
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: recently got off of it because I started microdosing to

1226
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 2: GLP one, and so that is another.

1227
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 3: Work in progress.

1228
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 2: I feel like my two works in progress are one

1229
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: is more vanity health related and the other one is

1230
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 2: just strictly like health and wellness related H and GPD.

1231
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: Wow, look at you, you hack the chronic fatigue. I'm

1232
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:25,919
Speaker 1: going to be so thrilled about it.

1233
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 3: I've the next podcast, next, next.

1234
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: Next podcast, we'll we'll get into Rory's health and wellness.

1235
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 1: I mean, but obviously you need the book and to

1236
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: be following her skin recommendations. I've told you I need

1237
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: a full list.

1238
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 3: I know we're supposed to do that the other night.

1239
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 2: I know.

1240
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 3: I love you.

1241
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming today, thank you for having me,

1242
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: thank you for writing this book, for us. We really

1243
01:06:49,960 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 1: needed it. Yeah,