WEBVTT - The Rutgers Women Fight Back (Pt 2) 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.240 Hey, everyone, this is part two of our episode about 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.000 the two thousand and seven Rutgers women's basketball team. If 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.840 you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend starting there. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.160 And just a note that we discussed racist and sexist 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:14.680 language in this episode. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:17.560 In April two. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.320 Thousand and seven, Don Imss, a popular and prominent radio host, 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.439 callously dragged a group of young female college athletes into 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:26.240 a press storm. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.720 I was blown away, bab what was said. Although I 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.360 was no stranger to racism and the nuances of it, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.080 I didn't necessarily think it would be possible, especially towards 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.160 a group of young women like ourselves. 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.360 But don iMOS was about to get caught in his 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:43.160 own storm. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.040 He had done it before, and there was a track 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:50.520 record of him, particularly saying and espousing some pretty dangerous 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.040 tropes about black women. And finally, I think a lot 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:56.480 of people said enough is enough. 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.880 After a week of silence, the team was finally ready 0:00:59.920 --> 0:01:02.680 to respond to take control of the narrative. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.759 I'm Susie Banacaram and I'm Jessica Bennett. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.680 And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.640 a cultural moment from the past that shaped us and. 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:15.760 That we just can't stop thinking about today. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.839 We're talking about a college basketball team that was thrown 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.600 into the national spotlight against their will, but we are 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.280 also talking about who is allowed to respond in anger 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.520 when they are publicly targeted and who gets centered when 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:28.680 these stories get told. 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.759 This is part two, Okay to recap. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.640 So, the Rutgers women's basketball team has just been to 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.960 the national championships and shock jock radio host Don Imus 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.640 goes on his show and calls them an offensive slur 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:43.080 on the. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.479 Air, that's a nappy head of ours. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.800 The backlash is growing quickly at this point, with people 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.920 like Al Sharpton and Barack Obama calling for his resignation. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:56.920 This all happens inside of a week, is that right? Yeah? 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.440 The Rutgers team initially stays quiet. 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.960 They take time to think about how they want to 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.480 respond and to let it play out a little bit, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:06.960 and then they decide the best way to do this 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.280 is with a press conference. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.640 What happens at the press conference. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.079 So exactly a week after the comments, they have this 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:18.480 really emotional news conference. Coach Vivian Springer, who I'll remind 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.919 you was this very famous Hall of Fame coach, decided 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.240 that the way to best approach this was to really 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.200 emphasize the humanity of the girls beside her. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:28.920 Okay, so here's what she said. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.360 These young ladies that you just have seated before you, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:41.280 before you, are valedictorians of your class, future doctors, musical prodigies, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.360 and yes, even girl scouts. These young ladies are the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.160 best thistination has to offer, and we are so very 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:58.640 fortunate to have them here at Rutgers University. They are 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:05.680 young ladies of class distinction, are articulate, they are brilliant, 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:06.400 They are gifted. 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.640 She also didn't dry away from clearly calling out what 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.200 don Imus had said as unacceptable slurs. 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:20.040 We had to experience racist and sexist remarks that are deplorable, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.880 despicable and abominable and unconscionable, and it hurts me. 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.680 And then a couple players spoke, and Essence was one 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.640 of them. She was introduced as a straight a student 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.680 who could walk out here and play Moonlight Sonata on 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.400 the piano without looking at the notes, which I know 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:39.760 is true because I watched a video of her playing piano, 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.960 and she expressed the team's great hurt, anger and disgust. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:48.240 Not only has mister Imus stolen a moment of pure 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.280 grace from us. But he has brought us to the 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.720 harsh reality that behind the faces of the networks, they 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.160 have worked so hard to convey a message of empowerment 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.560 to young adults that so, somehow, some way, the door 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.480 has been left open to attack your leaders of tomorrow. 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.560 Well you can hear how young she is there. 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.400 Yeah, I mean a lot of the commentators who were 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.240 watching that day noted how young and vulnerable the team appeared. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.240 And this press conference was terrible for don Imus. The 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.719 Wall Street Journal would call it devastating for him, but 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:23.840 the Wreckers team did say at the end they had 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.560 agreed to meet with him. 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.880 So we just heard Vivian Stringers being very composed and 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.000 super gracious in that press conference. But has she ever 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.600 talked about how she reacted privately, because I imagined she 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:38.400 was pretty pissed. 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.440 Yes, her private reaction was very different. Years later, she 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.719 recalled in twenty eighteen profile than in the days afterward, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.159 And I'll read this. I kept reading those words and 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.479 I was so upset. I kept thinking, why would he 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.479 say that he doesn't know us? I remember busting my 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.320 hand on the wall, and I was crying because it 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:57.919 was bleeding. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.719 Hearing all this like honestly makes me so sad because 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.000 she's just like, he doesn't even know us. Like there's 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:10.360 so much bias coursing underneath the surface to what they're saying. 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.240 Even in the press conference when they're having to reiterate 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:17.680 that these are brilliant, articulate young women, it's like trying 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:24.400 to object or subvert the tropes while responding to the thing. 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:26.839 Yeah, that's really is what's happening. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:28.839 I mean, she has to put on this professional face 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.200 and she has to prepare her team for a meeting 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.240 with this man who's caused them so much pain because 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:35.720 she knows that's what's expected of her. 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:37.720 I mean, she doesn't really have a choice. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.920 And then, of course she doesn't really have the luxury 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.560 of getting publicly angry, right, Like, of course she has 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.880 to slam a wall behind closed doors, because what would 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.000 they possibly say if she showed anger in public? 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.279 Right then she'd become an angry black woman. That's another 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.880 trope that they have to make sure they're not feeding into. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.560 And I think intrinsically they understood that they had to 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.080 appeal to people by laying bear their humanity which is 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:05.159 just not right. 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:05.400 Right. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.039 We shouldn't have to lay ourselves bear to convince people 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.280 we are worthy of not being treated terribly. And I 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.560 was really struck by that too, so I asked Essence, 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.120 if they were conscious of that. 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.240 I think it's black women, you know, we have to 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:26.520 somehow figure out how to navigate this place, how to 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:31.200 navigate life in a way where you are able to 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.960 show how strong and powerful you are, how intelligent you are, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.240 but at the same time, do it in a way 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:42.120 where you don't ruffle any feathers, where you don't intimidate people. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.600 You know, we should just take what's given to us, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.760 or you know, the more we fight for ourselves and 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.640 for others, as we often do, it's almost just like hey, 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.640 you you right there, Yes, you. 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.839 You specifically be quiet. 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.200 What you grow to understand is that what happens and 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.400 sports soch a Michael cosm of what society is. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.160 What she's talking about here is the double bind, right 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.600 like that these women, these young women had to grapple 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.840 with the isms of both race and gender, and so 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.680 like God forbid, they would be labeled as angry. We 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.520 saw how that played out when Serena william Is yelled 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:28.760 at that ref even though research actually shows and I 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.520 will just point this out to clarify the record, that 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.560 black women are in fact less likely to show anger 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.440 when criticized or disrespected. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.760 Because they know that this is a catch twenty two, right, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.640 especially ins in sports, you're supposed to be aggressive. How 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.480 are you also going to be docile? Like it's this 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.640 insane thing where Serena Williams gets, you know, weeks of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.640 headlines about how she was unsportsmanlike. But in tennis, I mean, 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.600 think about John Beckenroe. Those guys were crazy and they 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.120 never got dinged in the way she did. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.280 That's the thing too, right, Like when men express anger, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.160 they are viewed as passionate and their status actually increases, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.080 whereas when a woman expresses anger, she's just crazy and nuts. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:09.560 Right. 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.560 So as women, you know, right, you know that you 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.960 have to kind of make yourself softer in some way 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.080 to be considered professional. You have to put a bunch 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.360 of exclamation points in your emails, and you have. 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:20.240 To be likable. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.240 Yeah, and in fact, they did come off as very likable. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.800 It seems like they effectively threaded that needle in this 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:28.800 press conference. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.240 Is that what the response was. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.319 Yes, they definitely did, and it was an extremely successful 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.480 press conference, and essence really credits Vivian's stringer for that. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.960 She really was a pro so she knew how to 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.240 frame this in a way that would be effective. But 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.440 one thing that's interesting about the response to it is 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.920 that a lot of the coverage remarked about how graceful 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:56.920 they were, their dignity, they're poise, and Hundits repeatedly marveled 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:58.920 at how articulate and gracious they were. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:00.920 They actually used the word articulous in. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.480 The yes okay, And you know, the subjects of that 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.400 is that it's surprising that they were rating right, which 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.600 feels racist in a less obvious way. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.160 So I want to bring back Jaml Hill to talk 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:12.520 about this. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.720 As you know, Jamal is an acclaimed sports journalist and 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.360 she wrote about the story for ESPN at the time. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.320 Well, there's the indignity that you suffer of being dehumanized, 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.640 and then you have the extra indignity of having to 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.280 react to it politely because you're always aware of the 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.560 fact that your reactions are scrutinized and judged a lot differently. 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.240 For them to be angry in that moment, for them 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.480 to express any rage. It says everything about race in 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.840 America that that would have been considered to be a 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.400 classless reaction, but not what he said. Their reaction would 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.560 have been considered had they chosen to be angry and 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.760 chosen to exhibit a more forceful emotion, would have been 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.400 considered to be more egregious than the actual offense. I 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.640 would have loved for them to be able to express 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.680 however I feel, But it's unfortunately the burden and the 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.920 responsibility that a lot of Black people have had to 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.000 live with a long time, because not only are we 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:12.440 often the victims of racism and institutional racism and white supremacy, 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.760 were also not only tasked with being kind and polite 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.160 to it, we're also tasked with fixing it to It's. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.120 So interesting because it's like what they had to do 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:27.640 there was predict the racist undertones or tropes that were 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.920 going to be used against them and then like preemptively 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:32.920 come back. 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.240 Yes, they definitely had to go into this with the 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:41.600 understanding that it was their responsibility to somehow make this 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:47.920 better while also making it clear how unacceptable it was 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:48.360 to them. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.920 Right, And how do you do that if you can't 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:55.880 be firm because firm might be interpreted as angry. 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.800 I think that is actually the brilliance of Vivian Stringer. 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.840 She is really but she's doing it in a way 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.160 that really engenders empathy. And you can tell this isn't 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.400 her first rodeo rights what she's doing. 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.360 It's just like, there's so many layers to this that 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.880 you have to peel back and constantly be aware of. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.160 Right, because you have to experience the racism, but then 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.000 you also have to respond in a way that's not 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.280 going to create more racism, that's not going to make 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.320 you more of a target. It's really complex, and I 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.400 think it's also worth noting here that there was this 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:33.839 kind of deep historical and cultural significance to the way 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.120 that don Imus chose to be offensive right by calling 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.520 them names that were tied to their sexuality and to 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.960 their hair. It was tapping into this long standing cultural 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.839 baggage around black women's hair in this country. It's been 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.679 stereotyped and stigmatized for so long, as we mentioned earlier, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.640 and Jabelle was really interesting on this topic. Hair is 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.200 very central to the identity of black women. Backing the 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.520 times of slavery, they used to make black women bind 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.280 their hair in various cloths basically so it wouldn't publicly 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.640 be seen. And the reason they didn't it was because 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:15.400 it was this crazy sort of thesis that if because 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.640 black women were elaborately styling their hair and that was 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.760 part of their expression, there was this crazy idea that 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.880 that would lure white men. And so when you call 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:26.800 a group of black women that be hitdedt os, you're 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.480 not only trying to dehumanize them, you're also trying to 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.559 make sure that you are sending the message that their 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.400 beauty is not respected, regarded, or even wanted. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.760 You're trying to make them feel undesirable. 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.000 That is the whole point of this, right, And so 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.360 that's something that black women have also faced throughout the 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.360 history of our lives, is that we have been made 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.080 to feel not only as if we don't matter, but 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.200 that we're just not even beautiful or desirable enough to 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.720 even be considered in the same way, regarded in the 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.880 same scope of femininity that everybody else is. And so 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.079 by planting the image that we are hoes, it makes 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.920 it seem as if historically that the type of sexual 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.760 abuse and sexual trauma that black women have suffered is 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.840 really their fault because they're hoes and they're loose, and 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.200 that is another stereotype in a narrative that we have 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.199 had to fight throughout the course of our beings. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:35.120 Susie. 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.800 Let's go back to the fallout for Imus. Did he 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.760 end up facing any consequences. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:40.280 He did. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.000 After the press conference, general outrage grew because it had 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.240 been really effective, right. It had really emphasized that the 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:51.120 Rutgers players were just kids for the most part, and. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.800 They they wanted it to do. Yeah, And they weren't. 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.720 Journalists or politicians who were choosing to go on Imus's 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.439 platform and mix it up with him to sell books 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.760 or whatever. These were just hard working girls who had 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.680 done nothing but dare to play basketball while being black. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.360 So it really was a critical moment in this story. 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.280 He did try to continue to spin things afterwards. He 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.080 did talk a lot about how he'd done all this 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.640 charitable work, which is true. He had done a lot 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.360 of charitable work with children with cancer, and he felt 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.520 the need to mention that some of them were black, 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.640 which it's like, oh, but thank god you didn't weed 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.720 out the black kids from your cancer and illness ranch Like, 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.840 it just was kind of a crazy. 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.320 So it's basically like that, but I have a black friend. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.520 Yeah, it was a version of that, but almost worse 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.800 because he was using these sick children as a way 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.040 to defend himself, which it's hard not to see that 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.320 as a cynical way to try and change the conversation. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.280 He launched a telethon to benefit three children's charities while 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.800 all of this was happening, which just does feel a 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.520 bit like a stunt. He also defended himself by saying 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.160 that the black community had used the word and said 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.800 horrible things about black women. And he argued that because 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.400 rappers routinely and this is a quote from him the 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.280 fame and demean black women and called them in quotes 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:13.720 worse names than I ever did. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.800 Like, how was he supposed to know that this was offensive? 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.600 And you know that conversation is also to me just ridiculous, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.240 Like what that has to do with his decision to 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.400 go after these girls for no reason, I don't know, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.400 But it worked as a distraction. 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:31.160 It did. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.760 Yeah, a lot of conversation at the time around hip 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.360 hop and whether it was a double standard that black rappers. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.040 Interesting, So that actually became a story. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.600 Yeah, time did a story at the time, Oprah Winfrey 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.480 did a town hall with black leaders about whether or 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.520 not hip hop needed to be held accountable for calling 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.640 women bitches and hoes. But okay, so it is this 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.240 crazy side show that happens. In fairness to Oprah, she 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.720 had also done an episode with the girls from Rutgers. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.120 But still, I Ell said when I spoke to her 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:02.960 that this whole thing was just a way to continue 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.200 to avoid accountability. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.000 It was a way to let don I Miss and 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.840 other people who think like them off the hook, because 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.200 I can tell you, I can't think of a single 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.600 jay Z lyric where he said the Rutgers women's basketball 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:21.880 team are nappy headed holes, not one. Often what we see, unfortunately, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.640 in conversations about race is that at some point in 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.080 these conversations, the people who don't want to be accountable 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.440 want to then blame the people that they have either insulted, 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:38.040 demean or dehumanized for their own treatment. So it's not 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.240 about don Iamas saying this about the Ruggers women's basketball team. 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.920 It then becomes oh, no, black people deserve this, because 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.960 that's ultimately what he was saying. They deserve to be 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.480 called nappy headed holes because of something that Tupac said. 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:53.600 That's basically what he says. 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.400 It's just a diversionary tactic essentially, and it becomes such 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.680 a big part of the story that Snoop dogg ends 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:02.880 up responding to it. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.679 Oh my gosh, she didn't. Yeah, remember this, Okay. 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.920 He said an interview with MTV News, which was still 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.680 a thing then, that we're not, as he puts it, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.760 old ass white men sitting on MSNBC going hard on 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:14.439 black girls. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:15.400 We're rappers. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.439 This comes from our own experience and it's relevant to 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.320 what we feel, and we're not going to let people 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.639 say we're in the same league as this man. 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.919 That's interesting. Yeah, I mean that's true. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:30.080 Like, he's not a news person on major news programs 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.760 who is supposed to have some sort of journalistic standards, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.480 even though we know that he didn't. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.920 Right, it's just a totally different thing. 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.200 And also, as is well established now, but I guess 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.040 wasn't as well established at the time, being part of 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.760 a group does give you license to have different kinds 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.800 of conversations about them. That is just a fact, and 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.359 to pretend like that's not a fact and clutch your 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.280 pearls and be like well, why do they get to 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:53.639 say this? 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.119 But it's like, we know why, we don't need to 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.120 pretend we don't know why. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:04.679 So the pressure continues on CBS and MSNBC particularly to 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.240 fire him, particularly from black leaders Al Sharpton, who I 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.840 already mentioned, who's a well known civil rights leader, and 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.760 also Jesse Jackson, who's also a well known civil rights leader, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.240 and women's groups continue. 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:17.560 To also put a lot of pressure on. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.720 I think the thing that this really highlights is that 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.919 while Imas's audience had gotten used to his antics, the 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.119 larger republic wasn't so familiar with them. So this clip 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.359 ends up being really shocking to a broad audience. And 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.080 then all these previous clips that we mentioned come in 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.439 and others that we didn't mention because there were so 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.960 many of them. So advertisers begin to bail, and as 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.399 you and I both know, when the money goes is 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:44.480 when the pressure. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:44.800 Really comes on. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.680 Yes, And once advertisers start pulling out, CBS and MSNBC 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.520 realized that the suspension isn't going to be enough, and 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:57.280 MSNBC cancels his television simulcast right because they don't actually 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.760 produce the show, they just air it and eight days 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.600 after he made the comments, don Imis is finally fired 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.080 by CBS. Okay, okay, and in an in retrospect cameo 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.040 as twist. As per usual, the person who fires don 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.640 Imis is Les Moonvez Because no matter what, a list 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.359 of bad men always crops up in every story. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.920 Less moonves to remind people the former head of CBS 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.840 who was then pushed out over egregious sexual harass. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.560 Yes, yes, it's just a reminder that the bad men 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.359 are everywhere. So one other thing I just want to 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.600 mention here because I think it is wild, is that 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.560 when I was researching this story, I found that it 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.719 had become such a huge story at the time that 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.360 it inspired not one, but two Harvard Business School cases. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.280 Oh really about how as a leader you should handle 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:54.240 a crisis like this. 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.040 So oh fascinating. This really did. 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.240 Capture the national attention, far beyond the local New York 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:14.520 story that it might have been in a different world. 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.480 It's so interesting because this is the kind of stuff 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.800 that now plays out all the time, yes, and is 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.000 probably tackled much more quickly, So it's interesting to think 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.720 about how that has shifted. It's just so much more common. 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.600 I think now for big companies to be put under 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.919 pressure by the public and then advertisers to make a 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.480 decision about a thing that happened. 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:44.840 It's interesting because on the one hand, I think that's true, 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:46.639 but then I think about like a Joe Rogan on 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.439 Spotify and how Spotify has basically just kind of let 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.320 Joe Rogan do whatever he wants. And I think the 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.840 other way in which the landscape has shifted is that 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.280 there's an expectation that certain people are going to be 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.000 who they are, and so we don't get as much 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:06.800 backlash if a Joe Rogan says something, but obviously if 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.760 a mainstream network TV person says something, that's going to 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.439 have a different impact. But there are different rules for 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.040 different people now in a way that I don't think 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.120 existed then, because there's how many listeners are yours? How 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.639 much money are you bringing him for the platform? I 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:23.960 mean that was the whole thing with Joe Rogan, right right, Well, 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.080 with Joe Rogan, Spotify doesn't rely on advertising, right, so 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.160