1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, this is part two of our episode about 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: the two thousand and seven Rutgers women's basketball team. If 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend starting there. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: And just a note that we discussed racist and sexist 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: language in this episode. 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: In April two. 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Thousand and seven, Don Imss, a popular and prominent radio host, 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: callously dragged a group of young female college athletes into 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: a press storm. 10 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 3: I was blown away, bab what was said. Although I 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 3: was no stranger to racism and the nuances of it, 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 3: I didn't necessarily think it would be possible, especially towards 13 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 3: a group of young women like ourselves. 14 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: But don iMOS was about to get caught in his 15 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: own storm. 16 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 4: He had done it before, and there was a track 17 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 4: record of him, particularly saying and espousing some pretty dangerous 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 4: tropes about black women. And finally, I think a lot 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 4: of people said enough is enough. 20 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: After a week of silence, the team was finally ready 21 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: to respond to take control of the narrative. 22 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: I'm Susie Banacaram and I'm Jessica Bennett. 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit 24 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped us and. 25 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 2: That we just can't stop thinking about today. 26 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: We're talking about a college basketball team that was thrown 27 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: into the national spotlight against their will, but we are 28 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: also talking about who is allowed to respond in anger 29 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: when they are publicly targeted and who gets centered when 30 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: these stories get told. 31 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 2: This is part two, Okay to recap. 32 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 5: So, the Rutgers women's basketball team has just been to 33 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 5: the national championships and shock jock radio host Don Imus 34 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 5: goes on his show and calls them an offensive slur 35 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 5: on the. 36 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: Air, that's a nappy head of ours. 37 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 5: The backlash is growing quickly at this point, with people 38 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 5: like Al Sharpton and Barack Obama calling for his resignation. 39 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: This all happens inside of a week, is that right? Yeah? 40 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: The Rutgers team initially stays quiet. 41 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: They take time to think about how they want to 42 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: respond and to let it play out a little bit, 43 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: and then they decide the best way to do this 44 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: is with a press conference. 45 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: What happens at the press conference. 46 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: So exactly a week after the comments, they have this 47 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: really emotional news conference. Coach Vivian Springer, who I'll remind 48 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: you was this very famous Hall of Fame coach, decided 49 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: that the way to best approach this was to really 50 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: emphasize the humanity of the girls beside her. 51 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so here's what she said. 52 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 6: These young ladies that you just have seated before you, 53 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 6: before you, are valedictorians of your class, future doctors, musical prodigies, 54 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 6: and yes, even girl scouts. These young ladies are the 55 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 6: best thistination has to offer, and we are so very 56 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 6: fortunate to have them here at Rutgers University. They are 57 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 6: young ladies of class distinction, are articulate, they are brilliant, 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 6: They are gifted. 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: She also didn't dry away from clearly calling out what 60 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: don Imus had said as unacceptable slurs. 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 7: We had to experience racist and sexist remarks that are deplorable, 62 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 7: despicable and abominable and unconscionable, and it hurts me. 63 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: And then a couple players spoke, and Essence was one 64 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: of them. She was introduced as a straight a student 65 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: who could walk out here and play Moonlight Sonata on 66 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: the piano without looking at the notes, which I know 67 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: is true because I watched a video of her playing piano, 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: and she expressed the team's great hurt, anger and disgust. 69 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 8: Not only has mister Imus stolen a moment of pure 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 8: grace from us. But he has brought us to the 71 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 8: harsh reality that behind the faces of the networks, they 72 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 8: have worked so hard to convey a message of empowerment 73 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 8: to young adults that so, somehow, some way, the door 74 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 8: has been left open to attack your leaders of tomorrow. 75 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: Well you can hear how young she is there. 76 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a lot of the commentators who were 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: watching that day noted how young and vulnerable the team appeared. 78 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: And this press conference was terrible for don Imus. The 79 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal would call it devastating for him, but 80 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: the Wreckers team did say at the end they had 81 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: agreed to meet with him. 82 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 5: So we just heard Vivian Stringers being very composed and 83 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 5: super gracious in that press conference. But has she ever 84 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 5: talked about how she reacted privately, because I imagined she 85 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 5: was pretty pissed. 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: Yes, her private reaction was very different. Years later, she 87 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: recalled in twenty eighteen profile than in the days afterward, 88 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: And I'll read this. I kept reading those words and 89 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: I was so upset. I kept thinking, why would he 90 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: say that he doesn't know us? I remember busting my 91 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: hand on the wall, and I was crying because it 92 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: was bleeding. 93 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 5: Hearing all this like honestly makes me so sad because 94 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 5: she's just like, he doesn't even know us. Like there's 95 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 5: so much bias coursing underneath the surface to what they're saying. 96 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 5: Even in the press conference when they're having to reiterate 97 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 5: that these are brilliant, articulate young women, it's like trying 98 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 5: to object or subvert the tropes while responding to the thing. 99 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really is what's happening. 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: I mean, she has to put on this professional face 101 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: and she has to prepare her team for a meeting 102 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: with this man who's caused them so much pain because 103 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: she knows that's what's expected of her. 104 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: I mean, she doesn't really have a choice. 105 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 5: And then, of course she doesn't really have the luxury 106 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 5: of getting publicly angry, right, Like, of course she has 107 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 5: to slam a wall behind closed doors, because what would 108 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 5: they possibly say if she showed anger in public? 109 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: Right then she'd become an angry black woman. That's another 110 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: trope that they have to make sure they're not feeding into. 111 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: And I think intrinsically they understood that they had to 112 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: appeal to people by laying bear their humanity which is 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: just not right. 114 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: Right. 115 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: We shouldn't have to lay ourselves bear to convince people 116 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: we are worthy of not being treated terribly. And I 117 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: was really struck by that too, so I asked Essence, 118 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: if they were conscious of that. 119 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: I think it's black women, you know, we have to 120 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 3: somehow figure out how to navigate this place, how to 121 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 3: navigate life in a way where you are able to 122 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: show how strong and powerful you are, how intelligent you are, 123 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: but at the same time, do it in a way 124 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: where you don't ruffle any feathers, where you don't intimidate people. 125 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: You know, we should just take what's given to us, 126 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: or you know, the more we fight for ourselves and 127 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: for others, as we often do, it's almost just like hey, 128 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: you you right there, Yes, you. 129 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: You specifically be quiet. 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 3: What you grow to understand is that what happens and 131 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: sports soch a Michael cosm of what society is. 132 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 5: What she's talking about here is the double bind, right 133 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 5: like that these women, these young women had to grapple 134 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 5: with the isms of both race and gender, and so 135 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 5: like God forbid, they would be labeled as angry. We 136 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 5: saw how that played out when Serena william Is yelled 137 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 5: at that ref even though research actually shows and I 138 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 5: will just point this out to clarify the record, that 139 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 5: black women are in fact less likely to show anger 140 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 5: when criticized or disrespected. 141 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: Because they know that this is a catch twenty two, right, 142 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: especially ins in sports, you're supposed to be aggressive. How 143 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: are you also going to be docile? Like it's this 144 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: insane thing where Serena Williams gets, you know, weeks of 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: headlines about how she was unsportsmanlike. But in tennis, I mean, 146 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: think about John Beckenroe. Those guys were crazy and they 147 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: never got dinged in the way she did. 148 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 5: That's the thing too, right, Like when men express anger, 149 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 5: they are viewed as passionate and their status actually increases, 150 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 5: whereas when a woman expresses anger, she's just crazy and nuts. 151 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: Right. 152 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: So as women, you know, right, you know that you 153 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: have to kind of make yourself softer in some way 154 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: to be considered professional. You have to put a bunch 155 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: of exclamation points in your emails, and you have. 156 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: To be likable. 157 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, and in fact, they did come off as very likable. 158 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 5: It seems like they effectively threaded that needle in this 159 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 5: press conference. 160 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: Is that what the response was. 161 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: Yes, they definitely did, and it was an extremely successful 162 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: press conference, and essence really credits Vivian's stringer for that. 163 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: She really was a pro so she knew how to 164 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: frame this in a way that would be effective. But 165 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: one thing that's interesting about the response to it is 166 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: that a lot of the coverage remarked about how graceful 167 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: they were, their dignity, they're poise, and Hundits repeatedly marveled 168 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: at how articulate and gracious they were. 169 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: They actually used the word articulous in. 170 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: The yes okay, And you know, the subjects of that 171 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: is that it's surprising that they were rating right, which 172 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: feels racist in a less obvious way. 173 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: So I want to bring back Jaml Hill to talk 174 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: about this. 175 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: As you know, Jamal is an acclaimed sports journalist and 176 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: she wrote about the story for ESPN at the time. 177 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 4: Well, there's the indignity that you suffer of being dehumanized, 178 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: and then you have the extra indignity of having to 179 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 4: react to it politely because you're always aware of the 180 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 4: fact that your reactions are scrutinized and judged a lot differently. 181 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 4: For them to be angry in that moment, for them 182 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 4: to express any rage. It says everything about race in 183 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 4: America that that would have been considered to be a 184 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 4: classless reaction, but not what he said. Their reaction would 185 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 4: have been considered had they chosen to be angry and 186 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 4: chosen to exhibit a more forceful emotion, would have been 187 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 4: considered to be more egregious than the actual offense. I 188 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 4: would have loved for them to be able to express 189 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 4: however I feel, But it's unfortunately the burden and the 190 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 4: responsibility that a lot of Black people have had to 191 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 4: live with a long time, because not only are we 192 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 4: often the victims of racism and institutional racism and white supremacy, 193 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 4: were also not only tasked with being kind and polite 194 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 4: to it, we're also tasked with fixing it to It's. 195 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 5: So interesting because it's like what they had to do 196 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 5: there was predict the racist undertones or tropes that were 197 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 5: going to be used against them and then like preemptively 198 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 5: come back. 199 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: Yes, they definitely had to go into this with the 200 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: understanding that it was their responsibility to somehow make this 201 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: better while also making it clear how unacceptable it was 202 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: to them. 203 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 5: Right, And how do you do that if you can't 204 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 5: be firm because firm might be interpreted as angry. 205 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: I think that is actually the brilliance of Vivian Stringer. 206 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: She is really but she's doing it in a way 207 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: that really engenders empathy. And you can tell this isn't 208 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: her first rodeo rights what she's doing. 209 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 5: It's just like, there's so many layers to this that 210 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 5: you have to peel back and constantly be aware of. 211 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: Right, because you have to experience the racism, but then 212 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: you also have to respond in a way that's not 213 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: going to create more racism, that's not going to make 214 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: you more of a target. It's really complex, and I 215 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: think it's also worth noting here that there was this 216 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: kind of deep historical and cultural significance to the way 217 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: that don Imus chose to be offensive right by calling 218 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: them names that were tied to their sexuality and to 219 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: their hair. It was tapping into this long standing cultural 220 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: baggage around black women's hair in this country. It's been 221 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: stereotyped and stigmatized for so long, as we mentioned earlier, 222 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: and Jabelle was really interesting on this topic. Hair is 223 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: very central to the identity of black women. Backing the 224 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: times of slavery, they used to make black women bind 225 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: their hair in various cloths basically so it wouldn't publicly 226 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: be seen. And the reason they didn't it was because 227 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: it was this crazy sort of thesis that if because 228 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: black women were elaborately styling their hair and that was 229 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: part of their expression, there was this crazy idea that 230 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: that would lure white men. And so when you call 231 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: a group of black women that be hitdedt os, you're 232 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: not only trying to dehumanize them, you're also trying to 233 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: make sure that you are sending the message that their 234 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: beauty is not respected, regarded, or even wanted. 235 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: You're trying to make them feel undesirable. 236 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 4: That is the whole point of this, right, And so 237 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 4: that's something that black women have also faced throughout the 238 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 4: history of our lives, is that we have been made 239 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 4: to feel not only as if we don't matter, but 240 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 4: that we're just not even beautiful or desirable enough to 241 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 4: even be considered in the same way, regarded in the 242 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 4: same scope of femininity that everybody else is. And so 243 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 4: by planting the image that we are hoes, it makes 244 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 4: it seem as if historically that the type of sexual 245 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 4: abuse and sexual trauma that black women have suffered is 246 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 4: really their fault because they're hoes and they're loose, and 247 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 4: that is another stereotype in a narrative that we have 248 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 4: had to fight throughout the course of our beings. 249 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: Susie. 250 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 5: Let's go back to the fallout for Imus. Did he 251 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 5: end up facing any consequences. 252 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: He did. 253 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: After the press conference, general outrage grew because it had 254 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: been really effective, right. It had really emphasized that the 255 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: Rutgers players were just kids for the most part, and. 256 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: They they wanted it to do. Yeah, And they weren't. 257 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: Journalists or politicians who were choosing to go on Imus's 258 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: platform and mix it up with him to sell books 259 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: or whatever. These were just hard working girls who had 260 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: done nothing but dare to play basketball while being black. 261 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: So it really was a critical moment in this story. 262 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: He did try to continue to spin things afterwards. He 263 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: did talk a lot about how he'd done all this 264 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: charitable work, which is true. He had done a lot 265 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: of charitable work with children with cancer, and he felt 266 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: the need to mention that some of them were black, 267 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: which it's like, oh, but thank god you didn't weed 268 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: out the black kids from your cancer and illness ranch Like, 269 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: it just was kind of a crazy. 270 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: So it's basically like that, but I have a black friend. 271 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a version of that, but almost worse 272 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: because he was using these sick children as a way 273 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: to defend himself, which it's hard not to see that 274 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: as a cynical way to try and change the conversation. 275 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: He launched a telethon to benefit three children's charities while 276 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: all of this was happening, which just does feel a 277 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: bit like a stunt. He also defended himself by saying 278 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: that the black community had used the word and said 279 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: horrible things about black women. And he argued that because 280 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: rappers routinely and this is a quote from him the 281 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: fame and demean black women and called them in quotes 282 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: worse names than I ever did. 283 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: Like, how was he supposed to know that this was offensive? 284 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: And you know that conversation is also to me just ridiculous, 285 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: Like what that has to do with his decision to 286 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: go after these girls for no reason, I don't know, 287 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: But it worked as a distraction. 288 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: It did. 289 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of conversation at the time around hip 290 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: hop and whether it was a double standard that black rappers. 291 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: Interesting, So that actually became a story. 292 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, time did a story at the time, Oprah Winfrey 293 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: did a town hall with black leaders about whether or 294 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: not hip hop needed to be held accountable for calling 295 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: women bitches and hoes. But okay, so it is this 296 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: crazy side show that happens. In fairness to Oprah, she 297 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: had also done an episode with the girls from Rutgers. 298 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: But still, I Ell said when I spoke to her 299 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: that this whole thing was just a way to continue 300 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: to avoid accountability. 301 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 4: It was a way to let don I Miss and 302 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 4: other people who think like them off the hook, because 303 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: I can tell you, I can't think of a single 304 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 4: jay Z lyric where he said the Rutgers women's basketball 305 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 4: team are nappy headed holes, not one. Often what we see, unfortunately, 306 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 4: in conversations about race is that at some point in 307 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 4: these conversations, the people who don't want to be accountable 308 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 4: want to then blame the people that they have either insulted, 309 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 4: demean or dehumanized for their own treatment. So it's not 310 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: about don Iamas saying this about the Ruggers women's basketball team. 311 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 4: It then becomes oh, no, black people deserve this, because 312 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 4: that's ultimately what he was saying. They deserve to be 313 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 4: called nappy headed holes because of something that Tupac said. 314 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: That's basically what he says. 315 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: It's just a diversionary tactic essentially, and it becomes such 316 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: a big part of the story that Snoop dogg ends 317 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: up responding to it. 318 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, she didn't. Yeah, remember this, Okay. 319 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: He said an interview with MTV News, which was still 320 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: a thing then, that we're not, as he puts it, 321 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: old ass white men sitting on MSNBC going hard on 322 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: black girls. 323 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: We're rappers. 324 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: This comes from our own experience and it's relevant to 325 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: what we feel, and we're not going to let people 326 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: say we're in the same league as this man. 327 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: That's interesting. Yeah, I mean that's true. 328 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 5: Like, he's not a news person on major news programs 329 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 5: who is supposed to have some sort of journalistic standards, 330 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 5: even though we know that he didn't. 331 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: Right, it's just a totally different thing. 332 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: And also, as is well established now, but I guess 333 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: wasn't as well established at the time, being part of 334 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: a group does give you license to have different kinds 335 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: of conversations about them. That is just a fact, and 336 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: to pretend like that's not a fact and clutch your 337 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: pearls and be like well, why do they get to 338 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: say this? 339 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 2: But it's like, we know why, we don't need to 340 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: pretend we don't know why. 341 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: So the pressure continues on CBS and MSNBC particularly to 342 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: fire him, particularly from black leaders Al Sharpton, who I 343 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: already mentioned, who's a well known civil rights leader, and 344 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: also Jesse Jackson, who's also a well known civil rights leader, 345 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: and women's groups continue. 346 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: To also put a lot of pressure on. 347 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: I think the thing that this really highlights is that 348 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: while Imas's audience had gotten used to his antics, the 349 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: larger republic wasn't so familiar with them. So this clip 350 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: ends up being really shocking to a broad audience. And 351 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: then all these previous clips that we mentioned come in 352 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: and others that we didn't mention because there were so 353 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: many of them. So advertisers begin to bail, and as 354 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: you and I both know, when the money goes is 355 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: when the pressure. 356 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: Really comes on. 357 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: Yes, And once advertisers start pulling out, CBS and MSNBC 358 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: realized that the suspension isn't going to be enough, and 359 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: MSNBC cancels his television simulcast right because they don't actually 360 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: produce the show, they just air it and eight days 361 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: after he made the comments, don Imis is finally fired 362 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: by CBS. Okay, okay, and in an in retrospect cameo 363 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: as twist. As per usual, the person who fires don 364 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: Imis is Les Moonvez Because no matter what, a list 365 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: of bad men always crops up in every story. 366 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 5: Less moonves to remind people the former head of CBS 367 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 5: who was then pushed out over egregious sexual harass. 368 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's just a reminder that the bad men 369 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: are everywhere. So one other thing I just want to 370 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: mention here because I think it is wild, is that 371 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: when I was researching this story, I found that it 372 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: had become such a huge story at the time that 373 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: it inspired not one, but two Harvard Business School cases. 374 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: Oh really about how as a leader you should handle 375 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: a crisis like this. 376 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: So oh fascinating. This really did. 377 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: Capture the national attention, far beyond the local New York 378 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: story that it might have been in a different world. 379 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 5: It's so interesting because this is the kind of stuff 380 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 5: that now plays out all the time, yes, and is 381 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 5: probably tackled much more quickly, So it's interesting to think 382 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 5: about how that has shifted. It's just so much more common. 383 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 5: I think now for big companies to be put under 384 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 5: pressure by the public and then advertisers to make a 385 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 5: decision about a thing that happened. 386 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: It's interesting because on the one hand, I think that's true, 387 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: but then I think about like a Joe Rogan on 388 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: Spotify and how Spotify has basically just kind of let 389 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan do whatever he wants. And I think the 390 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: other way in which the landscape has shifted is that 391 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: there's an expectation that certain people are going to be 392 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: who they are, and so we don't get as much 393 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: backlash if a Joe Rogan says something, but obviously if 394 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: a mainstream network TV person says something, that's going to 395 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: have a different impact. But there are different rules for 396 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: different people now in a way that I don't think 397 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: existed then, because there's how many listeners are yours? How 398 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: much money are you bringing him for the platform? I 399 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: mean that was the whole thing with Joe Rogan, right right, Well, 400 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: with Joe Rogan, Spotify doesn't rely on advertising, right, so 401 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: they make their own decision about what happens on it's 402 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: hard to prussure them. Yeah, So it's interesting and look, 403 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: I think you can look at even Tucker Carlson. Advertisers 404 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: left Tucker Carlson in droves when he was at Fox News. 405 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: But that's not what finally got him fired, right, What 406 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: finally got empired is that, by all accounts, Super Murdoch 407 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 1: finally got sick of him pushing conspiracy theories. 408 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 5: Okay, so you mentioned that the team did agree to 409 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 5: meet with Don Ims. I imagine that must have been crazy. 410 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 5: Did that happen? What exactly happened at that meeting? And 411 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: what do we know about it? So the meeting did happen. 412 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: Coincidentally, the meeting was scheduled for the evening of the 413 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: day he ends up getting fired. So the meeting happens 414 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: also eight days after he made the initial comments, and 415 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: it's a pre arranged meeting with the coach, Vivian Springer, 416 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: and the whole team at the New Jersey Governor's mansion. 417 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's at the Governor's at. 418 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: The governor's mansion. But strangely, the governor never makes it 419 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: to the meeting. As a weird aside, he gets in 420 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: a car accident on the way. 421 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: Oh and it is like injured. 422 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: So they have the meeting without him, So he's not involved, 423 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: but it's at the governor's mansion. 424 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 5: But that is interesting that this has made it to 425 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 5: the highest level of state politics. 426 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, definitely. 427 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: And I think also New Jersey really rallied around this team, 428 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: like they felt real pride in them as they were 429 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: making their way up to the Final four, So I 430 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: think they felt protective of them, right, So it became 431 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: a New Jersey story in that way. So the meeting 432 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: lasts about three to four hours. 433 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: That's long. 434 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a long meeting, and I think a lot 435 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: of people on the team talk and afterwards i Miss 436 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: leaves without commenting, but Stringer does say that the meeting 437 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: went well and that i Miss apologized and that they 438 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: accepted his apology because he came to the meeting in 439 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: spite of the fact that he'd lost his job, So 440 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: they give him credit for that, or at least coach 441 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: Stringer gives him credit for that. And she also makes 442 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: the point that the basketball team had not called for 443 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: i Miss to be fired. 444 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty interesting, right. 445 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: I think that is interesting and worth noting because you 446 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: get this sense that even as all of this is 447 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,239 Speaker 1: playing out, she's conscious of not wanting the team to 448 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: be blamed. She doesn't want to be responsible for whatever 449 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: happened to him again, because I think they're conscious of 450 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: this possibility that there will be backlash, that somehow this 451 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: will kind of push back on them. 452 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 5: Well, and also at the end of the day, probably 453 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 5: she's just trying to stay in her lank like this. 454 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 5: This is a team, this is an athletic team. These 455 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 5: are girls. They'd never wanted to be weighing in on 456 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 5: national racial politics in the first place. 457 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: That's correct. I think that is definitely part of it. 458 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: She's just like, I'm just protecting my team and I 459 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: don't want to be blamed for whatever decisions other people 460 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: need to make about this. The team has not talked 461 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: about this meeting very much. They've never really spoken about 462 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: what happened. But I did ask Essence what the meeting 463 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: was like from her perspective, and this is what she 464 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: told me. 465 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: I felt like we got what we needed to say 466 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 3: off of our chests, each and every one of us. 467 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: We shared what we needed to share, what we wanted 468 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: to share about how we were feeling about what it caused, 469 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: and really allow him to put a faith to those characters, 470 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 3: because essentially he diminished us and it made us characters, right, 471 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: So I think that at that time we were able 472 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 3: to kind of humanize ourselves as much as we could, right, 473 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 3: as much as he cared. 474 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 5: It's so interesting to think of them all there together 475 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 5: and what Essence is saying is still pretty graceful and 476 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 5: giving this guy a lot of grace in going to 477 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 5: this meeting, and you know, wanting to show that they're 478 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 5: real people, not going in and being like fuck you. 479 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we don't really know what happened in the meeting. 480 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: Imus did eventually talk a bit about this meeting, and 481 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: he did say that one of the player's moms really 482 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: was very mad at him and really expressed to him 483 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: in ways that made it clear to him that what 484 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: he had done wasn't okay and wasn't funny. And he said, 485 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: it was good that I lost my job before this meeting, 486 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: because it didn't feel like I was just there to 487 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: try and save my job. I was really there to apologize, 488 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 1: and I was grateful that they accepted it. 489 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 2: And I guess, to his credit, he could have canceled 490 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: the meeting. 491 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: I think he genuinely did feel very shamed by this chapter, 492 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: and he said afterwards he made a promise to them 493 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: that he would not make them regret for giving him 494 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: because they had accepted an apology, and I think for 495 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: the most part, he did try and live up to that. 496 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: But whatever his regrets, it did not stop him from 497 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: suing CBS for forty million dollars claiming wrongful termination. 498 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: So his regrets did not last very long. Did he 499 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 2: get that money? He got a lot of it. 500 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: CBS announced a settlement with him for an undisclosed amount 501 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: in August, so this happened in April, so not that 502 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: many months later, and the reporting at the time was 503 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: that he got ten to twenty million dollars. 504 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: Okay. 505 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: That same day, one of the Rutgers basketball players, Kia Vaughn, 506 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: who went on to play for the WNBA, filed a 507 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: suit against I Miss, his executive producer, and all the 508 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: media companies involved, citing slander and libel and defamation of character. Okay, 509 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: and she was the only one to pursue legal damages. 510 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: But you get the sense that they did really just 511 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: want to move on. So a month later, she drops 512 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: the lawsuit saying she just wants to concentrate on our 513 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: studies and basketball training. And I think they do just 514 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: move on from this and try not to talk about 515 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: it much afterwards. 516 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: And so where does don Imus go from here? 517 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: Well, Jessica, you might be surprised to know that I 518 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: Miss was back on the air at another network, WABC, 519 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: by the end of that same year, in a deal 520 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: that was reportedly worth five to eight billion dollars a year. 521 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: It may also surprise you to know that his first 522 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: guest included Pulitzer Prize winning historian Doris Kurns Goodwin and 523 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: Senator John McCain. So it really didn't last long the backlash, 524 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: and on his first show back, he described that meeting 525 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: with the team and said the things that I just 526 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: mentioned about how it made him realize that it wasn't funny. 527 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: He diversified his show, he added some black comedians to 528 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: his existing crew, and to give you an idea of 529 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 1: how much he did or didn't change, he ended his 530 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: opening monologue by saying this, but. 531 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: Other than that, not much has change. 532 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 9: Dick Cheney is still a war criminal, Hillary Clinton is 533 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 9: still Satan, and I'm back on the radio. 534 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: Okay. 535 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 5: So he's clearly signaling to his audience that sure he 536 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 5: may have changed in this one realm, but he's still 537 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 5: the same guy. Who calls Hillary Clinton satan. Yes, I 538 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 5: mean it is interesting because it's like, Okay, can people 539 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 5: make in his case, racist mistakes, apologize, do the work 540 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 5: as we like to say, and move forward, or can 541 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 5: they not? Like it is an interesting question. Should he 542 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 5: have been kept off there forever? This seems pretty quick. 543 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: It's just indicative of the fact that while he did 544 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: get his hands slapped, he didn't really lose that much. 545 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: Right in the end, maybe he lost some amount of money, 546 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: but in the numbers we're talking about here, tens of 547 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: millions of dollars, whatever that money was, didn't make a 548 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: dent in his overall wealth. And honestly, I think the 549 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: thing that's more interesting is that it didn't take long 550 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: for him to fully rehabilitate his image. Almost a year 551 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: to the date of the original comments, Jesse Jackson, who 552 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: had literally been one of the people leading protests and 553 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: calling for as firing, appeared on his show Okay to 554 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: discuss the fortieth anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther 555 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: King Junior. Which you may know that Jesse Jackson was 556 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: there when Mlking Jr. Was assassinated and that booking would 557 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: have seemed impossible a year before. So it is an 558 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: interesting question of how long does it take to rehabilitate, 559 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: or what is considered rehabilitation. But frankly, this feels like 560 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't much. Within a year he was already sort 561 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: of buddying up with the people who had been calling 562 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: for accountability. 563 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 5: Did Jesse Jackson ever talk about why he made the 564 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 5: decision to go back on I. 565 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: Think the honest answer is people wanted access to his platform. 566 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: It's why people went on before knowing exactly who he was. 567 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: You know, in the end, access to power is extremely seductive, 568 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: and I think that's what the Imus story is. In 569 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, people really tolerated a lot from 570 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: don Imus things they knew weren't okay even before these comments, 571 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: because they wanted access to his platform. And I assume 572 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: for Jesse Jackson, whatever he may have said at the time, 573 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: that was essentially the same reason he decided it was 574 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: okay to move forward. 575 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: With this guy. 576 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 5: Okay, So this is all interesting, But to what extent 577 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 5: do you think he actually did mean it when he 578 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 5: told the players, I am not going to make you 579 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 5: regret having accepted my apology. 580 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I think to some degree he did. 581 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: I actually asked Essence about this, and she was like, 582 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I did not continue to follow 583 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: this man's career when this was over. I hit this 584 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: chapter away and like, I just didn't care to track him. 585 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: And I think that's very fair on her part. I 586 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: think he made an effort not to use really racially 587 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: charged language. What was in his heart? I mean, I 588 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: think we just don't know. There were a couple smaller 589 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: incidents where he denied the kind of racial undertones that 590 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: other people saw in them, So I do think he 591 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: was under scrutiny. 592 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: And did he ever talk about it again. 593 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: He did address the comments again in twenty eighteen, so 594 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: I miss passed in twenty nineteen. But he retired from 595 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: his show in twenty eighteen, so that gives you a 596 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: sense of how much longer he was on the air. 597 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: He went back on the air in two thousand and 598 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: seven and stayed on for eleven more years, And he 599 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: gave an interview to CBS Sunday Morning when he retired, 600 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: which also just gives you an idea of how much 601 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: his image was rehabilitated. Right that CBS Sunday Morning ran 602 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: this glowing profile of him upon his retirement, and when 603 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: the correspondent asked him if he had any regrets, he 604 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: said that the Rutgers thing, that's how he framed it, 605 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: the Rutgers thing, I regret. 606 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 2: The correspondent asked, what do you regret about it? 607 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: And he just said, because I know better, And he 608 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: also added that it was because it changes thinking about 609 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: making fun of some people who didn't necessarily have a 610 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: mechanism to defend themselves. I mean, I don't know if 611 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: it's the kind of deep regret I might have expressed 612 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: in this. 613 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting, and he says because he knew better, 614 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 5: which sort of hints at he knew it was bad 615 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 5: at the time. 616 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Well, and I think also he just genuinely always resisted 617 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: the idea that he was racist in any way, that 618 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: the things he did had racist implications. Like so much 619 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: of the way he defended himself at the time was 620 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: to be like, I am not a racist. And you know, 621 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't really inspire the sense that he did a 622 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: lot of self reflection, because obviously a man who feels 623 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: comfortable saying the N word and also just like spewing 624 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: out this kind of casual racism all the time does 625 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: have some racism to contend with. I just think that 626 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: this idea that when you're confronted with something about yourself, 627 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: you get to just say, that's not true about me. 628 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: I just said a bad thing, but it doesn't mean 629 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: anything about what I actually believe or who I actually am. 630 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: That kind of does feel like a cop out. 631 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: So I don't know that he ever fully came to 632 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: understand what this episode meant for him. I don't know 633 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: if narcissists are capable of that. 634 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm sick of Vimus. Yeah, fair, Let's go back 635 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: to the players. I want to know what became of 636 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: race players where well, Jess. 637 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: Unlike a lot of stories we tell here, I'm happy 638 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: to report that this story does have a happy ending. 639 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: So Vivian Stringer would go on to become one of 640 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: the most successful college basketball coaches of all time. She 641 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: was the first coach in men's or women's basketball history 642 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: to take three different schools to the Final Four. She 643 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: was the fifth women's basketball coach to reach a thousand 644 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: career wins, and she was the first black coach to 645 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: achieve that goal. So she is an icon in college sports, 646 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: and just an icon in women's sports. And I think 647 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: is retired now from Rutgers, but is a beloved figure there. 648 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: So she had a great career. Essence had an amazing career. Also, 649 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: she was drafted by the New York Liberty when she 650 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: graduated from Ruckers. 651 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: She went on to have a long and successful basketball career. 652 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: Has played for a number of other WNBA teams and 653 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: the US national team, and she played overseas for some time. 654 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: And now she's a music executive, so she's doing great. 655 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: Kiya Vonn, who you may remember as the students who 656 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: she did try and sue him briefly. She would go 657 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: on to be drafted by the New York Liberty when 658 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: she graduated. 659 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 5: I didn't realize so many of these original Ruckers players 660 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 5: were on the Liberty. 661 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well a lot of them just went on to 662 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: the WNBA. Kia eventually would go on to other WNBA 663 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: teams and play internationally, and she helped win championships for 664 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: some of the teams she played on in Europe. She 665 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: retired in twenty twenty two, so not that long ago, 666 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: and she works for the Atlanta Dream Now. I love 667 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: that there were other players who joined the WNBA. Epiphany Prince, 668 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: who was one of the players won the WNBA Championship 669 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty with the Seattle Storm. 670 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 2: Oh my hometown. That's so interesting. I didn't realize. 671 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, this was like team in New York. Yeah, and 672 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 5: the Storm my hometown. 673 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:44,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think. 674 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: That's the thing, right, is that this was a truly 675 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: remarkable team. 676 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 2: You know. 677 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: That is the story that sometimes got lost in the 678 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: coverage of this at the time. And others went on 679 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: to have other careers finance, healthcare, hospitality, whatever. But they 680 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: had the lives they always were meant to have, and 681 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: they didn't let this chapter derail them. And I think 682 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: that is a really nice way to end it. And 683 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: you know, I want to let Essence have the last 684 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: word here about what she took away from this experience. 685 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 3: It showed that you can have a voice, no matter 686 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 3: how small you are, even if it's just you yourself. 687 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 3: You can have a voice, and you don't have to 688 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 3: be the subject of anyone's jokes. You don't have to 689 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 3: be labeled that angry black woman. You can speak with eloquence, 690 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 3: you can convey your thoughts in a way, in a 691 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 3: manner in which hits home with people. You can focus 692 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 3: on the similarities between individuals to bring people together rather 693 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 3: than focus on the differences in order to drive them 694 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 3: further apart. You can be great in your own right 695 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 3: no matter what it is that you do, and if 696 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 3: you are given talent that you're born with, right, please 697 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 3: make sure that you use it for good. I think 698 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 3: it just kind of changed with my outlook on life 699 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 3: moving forward. Would be a part of the purpose. It 700 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 3: changed all those things, and it happened at an early age. 701 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 3: Would I rewrite the story? No, I wouldn't, because then 702 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be who I am today and I wouldn't 703 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,479 Speaker 3: have the effect on people the way that I do 704 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 3: just from learned experiences. If I can use what I 705 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 3: went through to help someone else, definitely would. 706 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: That's just a part of who I am now. That 707 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: feels like a really nice place to end it. 708 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does feel like a good place to end it. 709 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: And I just want to thank Essence again for talking 710 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: to me. I know that this is not a subject 711 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: you love talking about, and I really feel like we 712 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: learned so. 713 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 2: Much from her. 714 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 5: Susie, you have a pretty personal episode coming up next week. 715 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 5: What are we talking about? 716 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 1: So next week I'm going to talk to my friend 717 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: and fellow portista Kakpor, who is a best selling author, 718 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about the movie Not Without 719 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: My Daughter, which was really one of the only representations 720 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: of Iranians in popular culture when we were growing up, 721 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: and so we have a lot of opinions about it. 722 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 10: Okay, so people to ask me if have you seen it? 723 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 10: I'd be like, yeah, yeah, of course, and then sometimes 724 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 10: they would watch it and then they'd be like, Wow, 725 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 10: this is such a terrible movie. Why doesn't everyone just 726 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 10: ignore it? Except the era made it so that we 727 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 10: couldn't forget it. 728 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 729 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 730 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 731 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: Email us at in retropod at gmail dot com or 732 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at in retropod. 733 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 734 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 735 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 5: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 736 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 5: which we may or may not delete. 737 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 738 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 739 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This is. 740 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 5: Eighteen in Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and 741 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 5: The Media. Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements 742 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 5: is our engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. 743 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 5: Sharan Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 744 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 745 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 746 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 747 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are 748 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacarum. 749 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. 750 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 5: We are also executive producers for even more check out 751 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 5: inretropod dot com. 752 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 2: See you next week.