1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday, everybody. We are continuing our October classics with 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: a bit of an unsolved mystery from previous hosts Katie 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: and Sarah. This is spring Heeled Jack, who was a 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: strange assailant who terrorized London and the surrounding communities in 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. It's a story I was not familiar 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: with until listening to this old episode of our show 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: to decide whether to put it as a Saturday Classic. 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: And this episode originally came out on October Welcome to 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History class a production of I 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Katie 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: Lambert and I'm Sarah Downey, and it's getting closer to Halloween, 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: so we're getting a little bit spookier in our series. 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: Sarah had a really good pick for today well in 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this a popular listeners suggestion too, so it's not exactly 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: my pick. But in the late eighteen thirties, London and 16 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: its outlying villages, places that are suburbs now were apparently 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: terrorized by this mystery assailant. And sometimes he was dressed 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: as a bear or a devil, or dressed in a 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: coat of armor, and he tormented his victims, who are 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: usually young women, by tearing at them with sharp talents, 21 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: sometimes shooting flames at them, and then he would escape 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: with great agility across the countryside. And that agility earned 23 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: him the name of spring healed Jack, which is something 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: people eventually began to take literally, like he was running 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: around in these shoes with giant springs on the bottom. 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: But he made such an impression on people across the 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: country that other mystery attacks ten years, forty years, even 28 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: seventy years later were chalked up to this springman, who 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: grew even more fantastic as the decades went by. Yeah, 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: and he started to appear in Penny dread Fools, which 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: were the best phrase, it makes me so happy. It's cheap, 32 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: lurid fiction, I guess, which makes me less happy, But 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: is the name of our next imaginary fun to read through? 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: And he took on this folklore persona to this wronged 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: aristocrat who was inflicting vigilante justice. And if you look 36 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: at pictures of Jack from the nineteenth century engravings, of 37 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: course he looks a lot like a proto batman. And 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering what sort of inspiration, if any, 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: he had on the creators of Batman. I mean, he's 40 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: got the scalloped black cloak, he has black boots, He 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: flies and jumps, and you and I saw the batmobile 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: on Monday Cappy's uh car collection at Chick fil A headquarters. 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: So that's so. I like to think things are coming together. 44 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: But then spring Hill Jack mostly faded from memory. He 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: was replaced by these, you know, more generic ghosts and 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: boogeymen like we think of. But in nineteen sixty one, 47 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: and this story kind of gets a second wind when 48 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: it's used as an example of pre space age UFO 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: visitation in a magazine called The Flying Saucer Review seriously, 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: which you know, I mean, if you want to buy 51 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: us a subscription for Christmas, you totally could. But since 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, the subject of spring Heeled Jack has 53 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: been seriously studied by one man in particular, who's named 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: Mike Dash. So the legend is obviously huge. But was 55 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: there ever a real spring Heeled Jack and what was he? So, 56 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: just to give you some bearings before we launched into 57 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: this very mysterious before we spring and ring into this 58 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: story of our subject today could have been an alien 59 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: at least according to Flying Saucer Review, a supernatural being, 60 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: a nobleman carrying out some sick terms of a bet, 61 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: a series of copycats feeding off of a rural rumor, 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: or just an urban legend. And Sarah was saying that 63 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: the cool thing about this story is that even if 64 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: you walk away from it believing that nothing happened at all, 65 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: it's still really interesting to take a look at the 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: urban terrors and hysteria in the nineteenth century. Like if 67 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: you if you think about ours, the Satanist cults at Daycares, 68 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: thing that was going was in the nineties. So yeah, 69 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: we had no spring heeled Jack. But if you were 70 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: back in England at this particularly weird stuff that happened 71 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: exactly this is what you would be worried about. But 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: first we're gonna tell you a little bit of a 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: ghost story. So our scene is set February eighteen thirty eight. 74 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: It's less than a year into Queen Victoria's reign, and 75 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: we're at bear Binder Cottage in old Ford, which is 76 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: just east of London. So Jane Alsop, who's a young 77 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: woman who lives with her parents, here's somebody ringing the 78 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: bell at her family's front gate, it's a little late 79 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: for visitors to be calling. It's about a quarter to nine. 80 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: So she goes out and sees the man and asks 81 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: him what's wrong, and could you please stop bringing the 82 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: bell so loudly, And he says, for God's sake, bring 83 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: me a light, for we have caught spring hailed jack 84 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: here in the lane. So she hurries in. She grabs 85 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,119 Speaker 1: this candle and she hands it to the man, who 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: thinks she thinks is a policeman, but that's not what 87 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: she sees. At that point, he throws off his cloak, 88 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: holds the candle up to his chest, and it illuminates 89 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: this horrible face with red eyes and a helmet and 90 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: tight fitting white clothing. And then he shoots blue and 91 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: white flames from his mouth and grabs her starts to 92 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: tear it her clothes and her skin with his metal claws, 93 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: and somehow she escapes from him and she runs to 94 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: the door of her home. There he grabs her again, 95 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: keeps on ripping at her hair and tearing at her clothes. 96 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: Finally one of her sisters opens the door and saves her. 97 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: So that sounds completely terrify even today. And this is 98 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: the first firsthand account of spring Hill Jack, which was 99 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: published in the Times of London, and the story was 100 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: followed up by two investigations, one by the newly formed 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: Metropolitan Police and other by a for Higher detective James Leah, 102 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: who's considered one of the most famous early detectives. But 103 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: Jane's account was almost entirely backed up by her family 104 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: as well as other witnesses, so she was believed to 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: be an entirely credible witness, at least for most of 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: the story. YEA, someone I think was it her cousin 107 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: who said there was no neighbor. Yeah, So the one 108 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: sort of major contested point, a neighbor said, yeah, I 109 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: definitely didn't see any flames, even though you know, I 110 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: heard someone ringing at the bell. But the rest of 111 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: the creepiness everything seemed to add up pretty well. Um, 112 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: but that's not where our story is going to start 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: because months before Jane's attack, rumors of a mystery assailant 114 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: had already swept through the countryside, and they started in Barnes, 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: a village southwest of London in September eighty seven, where 116 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: a quote ghost imp or devil was believed to be 117 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: attacking mostly women and over the next two months, there 118 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: were reports from more than two dozen other villages of 119 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: a similar phantom. So the story spreads. Of course, it's exaggerated, 120 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: maybe it was all made up. Serious newspapermen and police 121 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: who looked into these tales couldn't find anyone who would 122 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: actually admit to having seen the assail. And it was 123 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: more like, oh my gosh, yes i've heard you know, 124 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: you should go ask Sarah. And then Sarah would come 125 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: to me. I'd say, oh, I haven't seen it myself, 126 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: but go see old Joe down the road. What about me, Sarah, 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: You could have asked me about the imp. You can't 128 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: send him right back to you, Katie. So it seemed 129 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: like everybody had heard of this ghost, but nobody had 130 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: actually seen him and the other thing. And they look 131 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: into some of these accounts and they'd find that sensational 132 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: stories had pretty normal sounding causes, you know, they were 133 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: seeing a mounted policeman or something. It wasn't spring heeled jack. 134 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: But still it seemed like something had been happening, because 135 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: by January the Lord Mayor himself of London made public 136 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: a letter he had received from quote, a resident of Peckham, 137 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: and this was published in the time, some individuals of 138 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: as the writer believes, the higher ranks of life, have 139 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: laid a wager with a mischievous and foolhardy companion name 140 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: as yet unknown, that he durst not take upon himself 141 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: the task of visiting many of the villages near London 142 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: in three disguises, a ghost, a bear, and a devil. 143 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: The wager has however, been accepted, and the unmanly villain 144 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: has succeeded in depriving seven ladies of their senses. Okay, 145 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: so this is putting forth this wager idea and sketch 146 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: rumors start flying all over the countryside. But possibly something 147 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: really is going on here. I mean, if the Lord 148 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: Mayor thinks that it's worth publishing, you never know. The 149 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: Gentleman in disguise story seems half plausible. And then in 150 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: February we have our first firsthand attack, which is the 151 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: Jane Alstop story from earlier. Um. In that case, the 152 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: principal suspect is this carpenter named Millbank, who's a squat man. 153 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: He doesn't really match the description that Jane gives of 154 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: her attacker, who's this imposing, enormous fire breather with a 155 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: helmet but Millbank admits to being so drunk at the 156 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: time that he can't remember what happened. And Jane and 157 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: her sister are both very adamant that the assailant was 158 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: not drunk, So when how would he be a fire 159 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: breather if he was well? And that's the other thing 160 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: if we're gonna, if we're gonna take the fire breathing seriously, 161 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: it's very dangerous to do fire breathing, period, unless it's 162 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: absolute calm, right, because got everything under control and you're 163 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: doing everything correctly, the wind blows the wrong way and 164 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: your face explodes, it's pretty dangerous. It would be especially 165 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: dangerous to do while you were drunk. But still now 166 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: it is spring healed jack fever, and not just in 167 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: the countryside but in London too. So we're gonna move 168 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: on to talk about a couple of attacks, and these 169 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: are the classic attacks from a short string of events 170 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: from eighteen thirty seven to eighty eight. So the second 171 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: one was five days after Jane's attack, and again it 172 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: was in the East end of London. The assailant knocked 173 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: on the door of a house and when a servant 174 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: boy came to the door to open it, Jack frightened 175 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: him so much that he started screaming his head off, 176 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: and Jack was forced to get out of there before 177 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: anybody heard. The third classic attack was when Lucy Scales 178 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: and her sister were walking home from their brother's butcher 179 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: shop down Green Dragon Alley, which sounds very Harry Potter. 180 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: They're ambushed and the assailant shoots blue flames and then fleas. 181 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: And this story doesn't gain as much attention as Jane's 182 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: for some reason, but I think it's a pretty good one, 183 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: possibly because Lucy was Jane was the daughter of a 184 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: pretty well off family, Lucy less so. So at this 185 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: point we enter the copycat stage, and you have angry 186 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: men calling themselves bring you know, just standing up in 187 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,239 Speaker 1: the bar and so I'm spring heeled Jack and attacking 188 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: women and boys dressing up as Jack to play pranks 189 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: on each other. Some men are arrested, but people are 190 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: also so obsessed by the story by now and frightened 191 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: frightened of it, that nearly any mystery assault gets added 192 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: to Jack's rap sheet. So it doesn't matter if it 193 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: doesn't exactly follow the pattern for what we've what we've seen, 194 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: if it's mysterious, it must be spring heeled Jack when 195 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: it goes on for years and years. His name is 196 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: so shaded with later attacks in the Midlands and the 197 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: Home counties in Middlesex, in Peckham and Sheffield, and famously 198 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: an alder shot in eighteen seventy seven, which is where 199 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: a British Army campus station and that's where he would 200 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: lay his chill hand over an isolated sentries face and 201 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: then bound off on giant springs. So apparently he's gone 202 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: from fire breathing to chill hands again. This is nearly 203 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: forty years later. Yeah, so it's extremely I mean, I 204 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: think we can discount that there would be one person 205 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: carrying out all these attacks. That would be pretty ridiculous. 206 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: But the last major spring hill Jack appearance occurs in 207 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: nineteen o four in Liverpool, and he's more athletic than ever. 208 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean, he's practically flying by these better springs. Springs 209 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: have improved considerably over the decades, and the account of 210 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: this appearance is really sketchy. I think there had been 211 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: rumors of a poultergeist in the neighborhood before, so everybody's 212 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: on edge, I guess. So the legend begins to fade 213 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: away after this. There's you know, if there's something scary 214 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: and fishy going on in your village, you're no longer 215 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: so inclined to blame it on spring Hill Jack. You 216 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: might just go with a plane, garden variety, polter ghost. 217 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: It's the boogeyman. Whoever? So what happened? We've got to 218 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: look at this from a few different angles. One, it 219 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: was Jack just a convenient boogeyman to blame for weird 220 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: events happening in the nineteenth century. Weird stuff happens. You 221 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:35,239 Speaker 1: have this convenient scapegoat. Did opportunistic hoaxeres and genuine criminals 222 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: sees this m o of eighteen thirty seven Jack and 223 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: make this rumor real. So you have all this gossip 224 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: and then you take on the costume and the prepared crime. 225 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: You can go do whatever you want, or did An 226 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: original Jack tar arized the London area in eighteen thirty 227 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: seven and eight, before giving way to these lesser copycats 228 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: over the next few decades. So, according to the Oxford 229 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: Dictionary National Biography, Folklori's usually assumed that spring Hill Jack 230 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: was just a combination of two urban legends, and there 231 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: was one legend among the servants and the working classes, 232 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: and that was Jack was real. He was a supernatural monster, 233 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: so like he really was the devil or a ghost 234 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: or whatever appearing in disguises. Among the more educated people, 235 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: there was a legend that it was a gentleman's wager 236 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: and there was this gang of well off men with 237 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: access to costumes and transportation and money, and they had 238 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: made some sort of sick bet with each other to 239 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: go around and try to frighten people out of their senses. 240 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: There was even a suspect for this theory, the very 241 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: rakish Henry de la Poor Beresford, who is the Marquess 242 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: of Waterford, and he's still regarded by some people as 243 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: the chief suspect for the original eighteen thirty seven eighteen 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: thirty eight string of attacks, because he certainly would have 245 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: had the resources. And again it's possible that the lack 246 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: of concrete information in rural areas from late eighteen thirty 247 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: seven comes from some sort of cover up, cover up 248 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: the nobleman. Maybe the first string of attacks ended because 249 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,239 Speaker 1: there was pressure put on the police not to investigate 250 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: any further, or nor he was just getting it was 251 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: getting too risky to keep on doing this. The police 252 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: couldn't be expected to cover it up anymore, or he 253 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: fulfilled his his his bet that thing's all done after 254 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: those classic attacks exactly, and the magazine Folklore unsurprisingly takes 255 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: up this same position. I mean, it's called folklore after all. Um, 256 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: that Jack was just a rumor and part of this 257 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: hysterical panic. He shouldn't be associated with any one person 258 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: because he was a product. He wasn't a real flesh 259 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: and blood man. But the research of the his orian 260 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Mike Dash, forces to look at Jack a little more 261 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: closely and consider a few different angles. He spent most 262 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: of his working life researching the Jack mystery, and his 263 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: research has exposed some of the most notable secondary sources 264 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: on Jack as being nearly complete fiction. So too famous 265 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: Jack stories that of the eighteen thirty seven attack on 266 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: the servant Polly Hill by a man she recognized as 267 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: the popeyed gentleman who propositioned her earlier in the day 268 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: seems made up, and Sarah was saying that was notable 269 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: because Henry Waterford was known for being popeyed. And another 270 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: the attack and murder of prostitute Maria Davis in eighteen 271 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: forty five, also seems entirely fictional and has no contemporary 272 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: evidence to back it up. So instead of relying on 273 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: these obviously questionable secondary sources of literature, Dash has poured 274 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: through records and newspaper entries from around the country, from 275 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: not just the Times but all over the English countryside, 276 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: even from the US because there are other similar events 277 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: happening here at the same period in time. So instead 278 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: of relying completely on some of this obviously sketchy secondary literature, 279 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: Dash has instead tried to go to the primary sources 280 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: as much as possible, which in this case there's some records, 281 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: but it's mostly newspapers, just trying to figure out what 282 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: the reporting suggests actually happened, and from his research, Dash 283 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: has concluded that there were elements of reality and fiction 284 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: in the case of spring heeled Jack, which I think 285 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: it's an interesting way to look at it. So he's 286 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: figured that there may have been a few Jacks in 287 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: the first string of attacks from eighteen thirty seven through 288 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty eight, but the attacks on Lucy Scales and 289 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: Jane Alsop were probably done by the same person, and 290 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: that person was probably also the same one who was 291 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: responsible for those mysterious eight teen thirty seven attacks in 292 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: the countryside, and after Spring eighteen thirty eight, it was 293 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: probably copycat Jack's who were using this ruse to play 294 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: hoaxes or occasionally to sexually assault women. So there's rumor 295 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: and panic around this whole thing, but there's also a 296 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: kernel of truth. So where there's smoke, there's fire. Yeah, 297 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: we think. But he also discounts to surprisingly popular theories 298 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: going back to that UFO idea. Yeah, so he's pretty 299 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: sure Jack was not a UFO and he was not 300 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: a supernatural ghost or devil, and educated people at the 301 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: time never really thought he was a ghost or a devil. Um. 302 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: But over the years people have claimed that Jack couldn't 303 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: have been human because his talents, his fire breathing, his 304 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: jumps would have been out of range for Victorian science, 305 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: which sounds so funny to actually say to someone, no talents, 306 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: those are beyond Victorian type. It does sound ridiculous, or 307 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: fire breathing even um. So Dash has been his research 308 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: looking through all the papers, he's figured that jumping doesn't 309 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: really have enough concrete evidence to back it up. It 310 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: does seem, as you mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, 311 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: that people started to take the name Spring heeled jack, 312 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: which was applied to Yeah, they started to take it literally, 313 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: like he has actual springs hidden in the heels of 314 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: his shoes, or he has India rubber sold shoes. She 315 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: would think would make it pretty difficult to get around 316 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: the countryside. Actually, if you were actually wearing springs on 317 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: your feet, I think it would be very difficult to 318 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: not just wind up with a broken ankle and caught 319 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: by the detectives. So if we take the springs out 320 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: of the equation, you can say that the fire breathing 321 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: and the talents could easily have been produced in the 322 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties. So if he did exist, we should assume 323 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: that he was at least as a man. Yeah, So 324 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: I think it leaves it open to you guys to 325 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: think about it a little. You know, do you think 326 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: he's a combination of an urban legend and some kernel 327 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: of truth or is it just an outright folk tale. Um. 328 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: I do like this story because even if you are 329 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: in the camp that assumes nothing happened, there's nothing real 330 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: about it, you're forced to still examine the hysteria that's 331 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: for real, that really did happen. Well, and it's it's 332 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: just cool because ideas of ghosts and things. I remember 333 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: watching Poultergeist in middle school and being completely terrified. Stories 334 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: of the supernatural just I mean they go back forever. Well, yeah, 335 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: ghosts like Jack have appeared long before seven and eighteen 336 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: thirty eight. I mean they just weren't attributed to spring 337 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: heeled Jack, and weird stuff happened that we don't have 338 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: an explanation for. Sometimes even now, sometimes it has a 339 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: basis in actual weird people. Sometimes it's just folks getting 340 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: hysterical and worked up about something. Fay so much for 341 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: joining us on this Saturday. Since this episode is out 342 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: of the archive, if you heard an email address or 343 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: a Facebook U r L or something similar over the 344 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: course of the show, that could be obsolete now. 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