1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,480
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

2
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,760
Speaker 1: I've never told your production of iHeartRadio.

3
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,920
Speaker 2: And today we are excited to have a journalist, writer, creator,

4
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,120
Speaker 2: fellow podcaster dog mom because I've seen.

5
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 3: This Molly Conger on the show. Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks

6
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,880
Speaker 3: for having me. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

7
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, who am I question?

8
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 1: Question?

9
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 4: Yes, my name is Molly Conger. I live here in

10
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,960
Speaker 4: Charlottesville in Virginia. I have a new podcast on iHeart

11
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 4: I guess it's not new anymore. We're six months in

12
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,160
Speaker 4: called Weird Little Guys. It is terrible stories of terrible

13
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,559
Speaker 4: men that you've probably never heard of.

14
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,240
Speaker 3: Yay, it's true.

15
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 2: Just jumping into your podcast, I was like, this is

16
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 2: how did I describe it before? As like a kindly

17
00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 2: told tale about really horrible people and fact that you

18
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 2: really didn't want to know but need to know, Like

19
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: it's just so much to it, and like your storytelling

20
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 2: is phenomenal.

21
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 3: But before we jump into all of that.

22
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 2: Because you have a long and deep history in the

23
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,880
Speaker 2: middle of the most intense events, I feel like, especially

24
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,839
Speaker 2: in our generation, you were kind of in the middle

25
00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 2: of the aftermath. I guess both in the Unite the

26
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 2: Right rally which happened in Charlottesville. Right, you also kind

27
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 2: of were in the middle of the did you go

28
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,560
Speaker 2: actually investigate the January sixth.

29
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,119
Speaker 3: As well? There? Yes?

30
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so both of these things blew my mind. I'm like,

31
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 2: what is she doing to herself? And why is she

32
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 2: doing this? Ay, that's the big question. Is she that

33
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 2: dedicated or is she a massacres? Like what is this question?

34
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 3: Answer is yes.

35
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 2: But with all of that, because I realized even though yes,

36
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: you are a coworker and now friend, I have been

37
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 2: following you for a while on Blue Sky, I think

38
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 2: I followed you. I did follow you on Twitter as well,

39
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,680
Speaker 2: because you are in the middle of all of this

40
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 2: intense labor in letting us know what was happening in

41
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 2: these types of aviz Can you talk to us about

42
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: how you got started in this intense work.

43
00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

44
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,640
Speaker 4: So I don't have a background in journalism, Like I

45
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 4: didn't go to journalism school. I have not had, you know,

46
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,359
Speaker 4: a professional journalism job. But in like you said in

47
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 4: the aftermath of Unite the Right, you know, living here

48
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,120
Speaker 4: in Charlesville, I'm kind of looking around at this town

49
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,280
Speaker 4: where I've lived for a long time, but had never

50
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,240
Speaker 4: been really politically engaged with you know, I was living

51
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,079
Speaker 4: my own life, and all of a sudden in twenty seventeen,

52
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,120
Speaker 4: I was unemployed suddenly for unrelated reasons, and I'm just

53
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 4: looking around being like, what happened here? What?

54
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 3: What just happened?

55
00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,359
Speaker 4: To us as a city, to us as a nation

56
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 4: as a people, like what what just happened? And I

57
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 4: had the spare time to commit to sort of it

58
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,840
Speaker 4: was a personal journey, right, Like I wanted to know

59
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,920
Speaker 4: for myself, and as I sort of dug deeper into

60
00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 4: trying to figure out what happened here, you just never stopped.

61
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 4: And it started to become obvious that, like, other people

62
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 4: wanted to know too, and I was in a position

63
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,639
Speaker 4: to help tell them.

64
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even without the background in journalism, you

65
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 2: are an incredible investigative journalist. Like it's interesting to see

66
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 2: how things have been uncovered as you do your good research.

67
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,520
Speaker 2: And by the way, we'll talk about this in a minute, Sophie,

68
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 2: that's the first thing she told me outside about you're

69
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,360
Speaker 2: an amazing person, but that you are an amazing researcher.

70
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 2: You know, that's a huge compliment coming from Sophie as

71
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: I was say, yeah, as for our listeners, she's like

72
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 2: a producer over at coal Zone Media and a friend

73
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 2: of the show and co worker as well. But all

74
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 2: of that to say, you also do unexpected things. I

75
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 2: feel like you really are a detective, maybe a private eye,

76
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 2: but you do is like being on a collective called

77
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 2: deeplatform hate, which I found interesting.

78
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 3: Can you kind of tell us what.

79
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,119
Speaker 4: That It was sort of a project from ages ago, right,

80
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 4: But it's stilling to know. So the idea of deplatforming, right,

81
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 4: I think it's it's less in the conversation now that

82
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 4: our mainstream platforms are run behind fascists.

83
00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 3: But there was a period of time where there.

84
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,120
Speaker 4: Was an idea that fascists and Nazis and misogynists and

85
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,560
Speaker 4: anti semits did not belong on mainstream social media platforms, right,

86
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 4: They did not belong in our collective Internet town square,

87
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,440
Speaker 4: and you could apply pressure to have them removed from

88
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 4: these spaces. Again, that dream has died. They run the show.

89
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 4: Now we're not getting them. You're not getting a nazi

90
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,920
Speaker 4: kicked off Twitter because that's their playground.

91
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 3: Now. It's one of those moments that you wish we were

92
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,040
Speaker 3: could go back.

93
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,719
Speaker 4: To there was momentum for a while behind this idea

94
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 4: that like, you know, if a Nazi is running a

95
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 4: T shirt store, you could contact the payment processor and say, hey, like,

96
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,480
Speaker 4: is it your business practice to process payments that are

97
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 4: funding a hate group? And the answer is usually silence.

98
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,160
Speaker 4: But sometimes they would say that was not our intention.

99
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 4: We did not know that, right.

100
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:24,280
Speaker 2: I've really miss when it was there was accountability, like

101
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,719
Speaker 2: this could have a whole conversation about cancel culture and

102
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,280
Speaker 2: how that doesn't exist and that's not a thing.

103
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 3: We need to stop talking about this as a thing.

104
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,640
Speaker 2: But it was interesting because I was like, when I

105
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,919
Speaker 2: was looking all the stuff up about you, as you

106
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 2: know we do for our guess, she's got her own

107
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 2: Wikipedia page.

108
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 4: Congratulations, humiliating, humiliate. When I saw that, I was like,

109
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 4: I'm not telling anyone about this. I don't want anyone

110
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,120
Speaker 4: to know about this. Don't look at it to know

111
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,200
Speaker 4: I don't look at it.

112
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 3: I wouldn't either, honestly, I wouldn't either try.

113
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: To say it. I'm honestly like I had a nightmare

114
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 1: ahead a Wikipedia.

115
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,159
Speaker 4: Page probably not correct, and I just like I can't

116
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 4: I can't engage that like, I think my birth year

117
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,480
Speaker 4: is wrong, and it's like that's just.

118
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 3: They haven they didn't notice that. I was like, okay,

119
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:11,120
Speaker 3: that's interesting.

120
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 4: But every year on my birthday, I make a joke

121
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 4: about how I get two birthdays because the year I

122
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 4: was born, my birthday was Labor Day, and so it's

123
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:19,920
Speaker 4: not always on Labor Day.

124
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 3: So I feel like I get both days.

125
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,839
Speaker 4: And it's like, if you know approximately how old I am,

126
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 4: you know what year that was labor Day?

127
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 3: They did not do they do not.

128
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,280
Speaker 2: But it's really good because it is glowing, like it

129
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,599
Speaker 2: is like complimentary of what you have done. So I

130
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,719
Speaker 2: will give you that as someone who just recently looked

131
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,160
Speaker 2: at it. Okay, like this, it made me want to

132
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 2: be your friend for sure.

133
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: For sure.

134
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,719
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, we're definitely friends. Wow.

135
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: So we are interested in your podcast because all all

136
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,159
Speaker 1: of this, all the things that you've done and the

137
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,960
Speaker 1: investigative work that you've done, has led to this podcast

138
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 1: weird Little Guys. Can you tell us a bit about it?

139
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? So then Sophie actually came up with a name.

140
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,919
Speaker 4: I love Sophie because I guess, you know, work related

141
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,800
Speaker 4: and casual friend friend conversations with Sophie like, I'm always

142
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 4: sort of like bursting into the room like the kool

143
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,600
Speaker 4: Aid man, with like, look at this weird guy I found, right,

144
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 4: because I'm always sort of digging around looking for I

145
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 4: don't even know what I'm looking for until I find it,

146
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 4: just sort of digging around. And sometimes you find a

147
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 4: guy and you're like, what is going on with this guy?

148
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 4: This guy's got a weird situation. So I'm always saying, like,

149
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 4: look at this weird guy I found.

150
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 3: And eventually she was like.

151
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,200
Speaker 4: You know, You've got a lot of weird guys. You

152
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 4: can make a whole show about these weird guys. And

153
00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 4: so every episode is theoretically centered around an individual man.

154
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,760
Speaker 4: You know, women women can be weird little guys too.

155
00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 4: I'm actually working on a woman right now. But these

156
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 4: are sort of figures in the white power movement, in

157
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 4: white supremacist movements, neo Nazi movements, and they're sort of

158
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 4: biographical sketches, but it uses each man as sort of

159
00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 4: an entry point into the world he was operating in. Right,

160
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 4: So these the way these figures intersect with each other

161
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 4: and with events in history, the way these movements are shaped,

162
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 4: the way they interact with mainstream politics. You know, I

163
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 4: think marketing tagged its true crime, which I think is

164
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 4: a very interesting conversation to have, but sort of the

165
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 4: nature of true crime as a genre, because I don't

166
00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 4: think that's incorrect, right, Like from a marketing perspective, these

167
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 4: are stories of crime and they are true, right, But

168
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,000
Speaker 4: I know, no shade to the true crime girlies, like

169
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 4: it's my one of my guilty pleasures. I do listen

170
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 4: to a lot of true crime shows, but I find

171
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 4: that genre typically sort of sensationalistic or exploitative, or sort

172
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 4: of focused on finding the worst aspects and focusing on

173
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 4: that without exploring what it means. So my weird little

174
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 4: guys there are they're monsters, right, they are true monsters.

175
00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 4: They are beating their wives, their molesting children, they're making

176
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 4: they're trying to overthrow the government. They're doing the worst

177
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 4: things you can think of, and they are what you

178
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 4: would describe as monsters. But the goal of the show

179
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 4: is to show you that they're also just men. They

180
00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 4: are human men with strange personal lives and massive personal

181
00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,839
Speaker 4: failings and the weaknesses of men. Because it is hard

182
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,200
Speaker 4: to think of facing a monster, but it's easy to laugh.

183
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 3: At a man, which is the title is fantastic.

184
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,440
Speaker 2: I will say so between you and Sophie creating that

185
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 2: is a beautiful title. Weird little guys because it does

186
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,200
Speaker 2: kind of take away some of that power that they

187
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 2: are desperately trying to get over people in general. But

188
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,200
Speaker 2: as I was listening to it, you also in each

189
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,000
Speaker 2: of your episodes, it's like a big tangled web of

190
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,320
Speaker 2: people and organizations that have like you really lay out

191
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,800
Speaker 2: how these people came about, Like how these creations of

192
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 2: these monsters or these men doing these awful acts came about.

193
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,199
Speaker 2: And I find that interesting in itself. Also, with a

194
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,480
Speaker 2: lot of your conversations and talking you have a like

195
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,680
Speaker 2: unearthed people who may be cops who are obvious supporters of,

196
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,800
Speaker 2: you know, the alt right supremacist movement, as well as.

197
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 3: Calling out new people.

198
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,319
Speaker 2: I know, I know people are listening hate listening, trying

199
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 2: to figure out if they're going to be swept up

200
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 2: in to your conversation of an organization. Have you gotten

201
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 2: any reactions from any other people you've talked about or reference.

202
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 4: The fascinating answer to that question is no, really right,

203
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 4: So I've been doing this work for years now, right,

204
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 4: sort of talking about these men, unearthing them, digging them out,

205
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 4: you know, discussing their legal problems, their personal lives. Have

206
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 4: been digging into these people for a long time, and

207
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,559
Speaker 4: for years it was this sort of.

208
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,840
Speaker 3: Conversation. It was bidirectional.

209
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 4: They were aware of me, and I was aware of them,

210
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 4: and I could see them talking about me in their

211
00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 4: spaces as I'm talking about them in mind. And you know,

212
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,400
Speaker 4: sometimes the communication was direct in ways I do not prefer.

213
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 4: But since I started the show, I don't see that,

214
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 4: and I think it's because they're afraid of being on

215
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 4: this show.

216
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 3: That's amazing. I think they are amazing.

217
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 4: Hear the you know, these narratives where I'm dissecting someone

218
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,719
Speaker 4: and just you know, reading them to filth, and they

219
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,280
Speaker 4: don't want that smoke because I don't hear from the

220
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 4: you know, the guys I used to hear from.

221
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 2: That's fascinating because I would have thought someone would have reacted.

222
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 2: I know you've gotten threats previously. I don't know if

223
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 2: it's been around the podcast, but like any of your other.

224
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 3: Stuff, but that is interesting.

225
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 2: I really thought you would have gotten some type of

226
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 2: reaction by your podcast. Maybe it's because, like I said,

227
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 2: your storytelling is so good that they're like, wait, it

228
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 2: sounds like it's if I do this, she's going to

229
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,440
Speaker 2: do it in a way that I can't combat her.

230
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,319
Speaker 3: What are you saying. I don't know.

231
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,959
Speaker 4: I think they are nervous about it. This was before

232
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,679
Speaker 4: the show started. I wrote a piece, like I say,

233
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 4: a year or two ago now about about a man

234
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 4: in particular that I did have a bit of a

235
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,120
Speaker 4: personal history with. He'd been on a podcast, a Nazi

236
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 4: podcast that often discussed me in ways that were very

237
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 4: violent and disparaging, and then he got into some legal trouble,

238
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,240
Speaker 4: and I wrote an article about you know, his legal

239
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 4: trouble at that moment, and sort of in the style

240
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 4: of the show, I guess before the show started, you know,

241
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 4: was talking about his life leading up to that moment.

242
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 4: A friend of mine, another female journalist, had a source

243
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 4: relationship with this man from an unrelated situation, and after

244
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 4: the article came out, he contacted her and said, how

245
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,560
Speaker 4: did she know that thing about my grandmother? Like he

246
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 4: was startled that I, you know, I dug up details

247
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 4: about his life that he thought were secret or private

248
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,560
Speaker 4: or you know, so far in the past that why

249
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 4: would anyone know that, and it's like, it's because I

250
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 4: built a family tree and I read every issue of

251
00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 4: your hometown newspaper for every year of your life. Like

252
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,920
Speaker 4: the answer to that is that because I'm good. The

253
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 4: answer to that is because I spent way too much

254
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 4: time on this.

255
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,439
Speaker 3: Yes, I love that, but I love you.

256
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 4: They have that anxiety that like I don't want you

257
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,199
Speaker 4: to know my grandmother once killed her neighbor's dog, you know, right,

258
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:18,319
Speaker 4: like don't know the.

259
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 3: Secrets of my past. Please, thank you, thank you very much.

260
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,320
Speaker 2: And then just at sidebar listening to that of to

261
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,840
Speaker 2: your most recent episode, who voiced Donald Trump?

262
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,679
Speaker 3: Who did that? That is my editor, Rory. He's so good,

263
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 3: He's he's so good. I had anxiety. What why? Because

264
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,960
Speaker 3: I did? I yelled at my radio listening to because

265
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,559
Speaker 3: I'm always like.

266
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 4: Down to the wire, like I don't have good time

267
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 4: management skills. So like I'm turning the episodes in like

268
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 4: hours before like the last second where he could start

269
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,720
Speaker 4: editing it and I couldn't.

270
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 3: I was like texting the work group chat.

271
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 4: I was like, does anybody can anybody do these these

272
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 4: Trump line reads for me?

273
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 3: And like nobody, nobody would do it?

274
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 4: And Rory was like, as he was editing it, because

275
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,959
Speaker 4: I had just read them in as placeholder because I

276
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 4: thought someone would step in and then.

277
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 3: Where he was like, do you twot me to try it?

278
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:08,360
Speaker 3: And it was perfect?

279
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 1: It was perfect.

280
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 3: Tell him compliments because I got I was like, no,

281
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 3: I don't like I don't like this. Who is doing this?

282
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 2: But with all of that, again, like we were saying,

283
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: our coworker and friend Sophie was complimenting about how you

284
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 2: are such an amazing researcher.

285
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,400
Speaker 3: Obviously as you were talking about digging up.

286
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 2: The grandma and all those things, the recent episode about

287
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 2: Scott Still and the overturning of DEI, there's so.

288
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 3: Much that you were getting.

289
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 2: You were getting minute day stayls about the councilwoman by

290
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 2: the way, I was like, good god, she just went

291
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 2: down that family tree. With all of that, And as podcasters,

292
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 2: as researchers, we know how important that skill is. We

293
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 2: know how big of a deal and how it can

294
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 2: make and break a podcast. Any really good written work

295
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 2: in general mediums like this, can you give advice on

296
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 2: how to navigate in getting good, reliable, correct information like that.

297
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 4: I'm a primary source girl. I love a primary source.

298
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 4: I like I said, I don't have a background in journalism,

299
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,200
Speaker 4: and so like the idea of like talking to a

300
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 4: source makes me nauseous.

301
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 3: I don't like that. I don't want I don't not

302
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 3: only do I not.

303
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,280
Speaker 4: Necessarily trust the things that come out of the mouths

304
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 4: of the kinds of people I would need to talk to.

305
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 4: I just I don't like the idea of doing it.

306
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 4: But I love a document, so I rely a lot

307
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 4: on court records. The nature of truth I think is slippery,

308
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 4: but at least with the court record, you could say

309
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 4: this is legally true, right, And so I love an

310
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 4: archival newspaper. I love a court record. I do a

311
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 4: lot of open source research, so you know, I construct

312
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 4: an entire family tree, so for you know, for people

313
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 4: who are currently living, you know currently you know, young

314
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 4: enough to have a face Book or have a mom

315
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 4: who has a Facebook. Like, I'm looking at your I'm

316
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 4: building a family tree, and I'm looking at your cousin's Instagram.

317
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 2: Wait, I'm seeing a conspiracy board happening on your wall

318
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,000
Speaker 2: when you're.

319
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 3: Talking about a specific family moving the red lines? Is

320
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 3: that happening? Okay, I'm just kidding.

321
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 4: It's gnarly, and I don't always know what I'm looking for, right,

322
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 4: because you know, you build out, when you're building out

323
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 4: a whole world, and these all these sort of details,

324
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 4: they add a lot of texture to the story, They

325
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:30,960
Speaker 4: make it more real. You don't know what you're looking

326
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 4: for until you find it. So I spend most of

327
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 4: the week collecting information I'm not going to use right, right.

328
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 2: I feel like that happens a lot, a lot or

329
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 2: you just have the pile of like, well, that was

330
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 2: things I could have looked at but I didn't need.

331
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 2: And again what you talk to us about it? And

332
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 2: you actually said it again in that Scottsdale episode where

333
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 2: you talk about sometimes you don't know what your next

334
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 2: episode is going to be about, and sometimes you're in

335
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:56,760
Speaker 2: a moment of like, oh god, what do I do?

336
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 3: How do you come up with these epitets?

337
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 2: So it's what what is like a way of trying

338
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 2: to get past that, like.

339
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 4: Block, I have no control over what the episodes are about.

340
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 4: And I don't mean there's like a producer somewhere telling me.

341
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 4: I just mean like I choose it, but I don't

342
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 4: know it chooses me. You know, from week to week,

343
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 4: you know, I almost always start out with an idea

344
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 4: that isn't what ends up happening. Like, Yeah, the two

345
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 4: episode arc I'm in the middle of writing the second

346
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,360
Speaker 4: half of Right Now wasn't what I sat down to write.

347
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 4: I was thinking about a particular guy and I started

348
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 4: sketching out his life story and I found this one

349
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 4: incident from his life that looked interesting to me, and

350
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 4: I was thinking, like, oh, that could be an interesting

351
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,640
Speaker 4: focal point for the story of his life. But that

352
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 4: particular rally from twenty twelve, I was looking at the

353
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 4: other people in the picture and like, who printed those banners?

354
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,359
Speaker 4: What was the impetus for this moment? And it's not

355
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 4: about him at all anymore. It's not about him. He's

356
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 4: not even in the story because this other story presented

357
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,119
Speaker 4: itself to me, this story of actually what I'm in

358
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 4: the middle of writing right now is an international fascist

359
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,440
Speaker 4: mercenary network that was trying to prevent the first post

360
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 4: apartheid elections in South Africa.

361
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 2: Right which, by the way, Like I came in to

362
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,400
Speaker 2: that episode thinking you were talking about Elon.

363
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 3: Musk, Like that's what we're gonna be talking about.

364
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,680
Speaker 2: I was like, Yeah, this is absolutely ze On par

365
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 2: and then it traveled into this woman in Louisiana who

366
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,119
Speaker 2: was like, let me tell you about this person.

367
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 3: I was like, wait, that took a hard left.

368
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,639
Speaker 2: That was really anticipating that we were just gonna have

369
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 2: a drag down of Elon Musk. But I was like, wow,

370
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 2: this is an intense level of conversation, especially when you

371
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,920
Speaker 2: start putting like international levels, how it does affect within

372
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 2: our own government, which in itself is horrifying.

373
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 3: And led by a woman.

374
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,680
Speaker 4: Oh, she's she's an interesting character, but it is It's

375
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 4: like I'm just following. I'm just following the story where

376
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 4: it takes me. And you know, I thought it was

377
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 4: a story about a guy in Arkansas, but now I'm

378
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 4: trying to track gun smuggling from Bosnia to South Africa,

379
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 4: like it was an accident.

380
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 2: That is insane, and all of these stories. I sit

381
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 2: here and wonder for you, because when I listen to

382
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 2: these podcasts, this type of research, the people that you're

383
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: researching who seem heartless and like, who are monsters a

384
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 2: little monsters in that they are trying to take away

385
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 2: people's rights, people's lives, all of those things, and with

386
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 2: all the substances do research does that not affect you

387
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: at all, or does it?

388
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 4: I mean sometimes I think if you listen carefully, you

389
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 4: can tell that I'm crying. No, you know, you do

390
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 4: as many takes as you can, and you edit out

391
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 4: the parts where you can really hear the sniffling, But like,

392
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 4: sometimes there's just no getting around it. Like you could

393
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 4: hear in the episode that like I've been crying because

394
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 4: it does. I think it has to. And if it doesn't,

395
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 4: you have to stop. You have to walk away, right, Like,

396
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 4: if you can immerse yourself in this story of truly

397
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,959
Speaker 4: the most the most evil things that human beings can

398
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 4: do to one another and not feel it, you're not

399
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 4: doing it right.

400
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 3: You're not doing it justice.

401
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 4: You're you've hardened your heart to the point that you're

402
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 4: not okay anymore.

403
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 3: But you're not telling the story right.

404
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:31,639
Speaker 1: You know.

405
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 4: There's this this idea of this you know this, I know,

406
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 4: this holy grail of this journalistic objectivity. And I don't

407
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 4: think that's healthy. I don't think that's how you should

408
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 4: be telling these stories. I think it's a disservice. I

409
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 4: think it is actively harmful to seek that, right.

410
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine hearing some of these stories again

411
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: talking about going back to the Scottsdale because I know

412
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 2: you had really invested in this conversation and it really

413
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,479
Speaker 2: dug up a lot of the details. And just for

414
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: the listeners, they were talking about the fact that the

415
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: local council had overturned the DEI initiative. That am I

416
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 2: saying that right? Right?

417
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 4: So, the city of Scottsdale, Arizona, had one of the

418
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 4: first in the nation a full time city employee position

419
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 4: dedicated to a diversity initiative. So in the late nineties

420
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 4: they were one of the first cities in the country

421
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 4: to do this. And in two thousand and four, a

422
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 4: klansman sent a mail bomb to try and murder the

423
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 4: director of that office, Don Logan. He was injured pretty badly,

424
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 4: but he survived and he kept doing the job and

425
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 4: the office did not close. Like he kept doing the job,

426
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 4: you know, Helmos had his hands blown off, and then

427
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 4: in February of this year, the city council voted to

428
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 4: close the office.

429
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 2: And like you're telling of the story, it was it

430
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: was gut wrenching because not only did you add the

431
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: audio of that council meeting where they were making this vote,

432
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 2: but you also had interview with the director had almost

433
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: died for this center is literally saying I have shed blood,

434
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,719
Speaker 2: I've given my blood to this, and talking about why

435
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 2: it was important, and even talking about the original intent

436
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: of having that was because of the corruption, not because

437
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: they were being quote unquote woke, but because it.

438
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 3: Was so bad because of wokeness.

439
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 4: It was because there cops couldn't stop doing discrimination, not

440
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 4: like violating everyone at the violations of people's civil rights, right,

441
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 4: So it really wasn't unresponsibil like, let us be extra

442
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 4: in this, No, let's just make sure we stop before

443
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 4: everybody dies and we have a riot essentially, But in

444
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 4: this level of like storytelling, you do an amazing job

445
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 4: of bringing that empathy and care to these stories.

446
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 3: How how are you doing this? That's a good question.

447
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 3: I mean part of it is that I love it.

448
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 3: I think it is.

449
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 4: It is the only thing I can imagine doing, you know,

450
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 4: because I I think I've talked about this before on

451
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 4: the show and elsewhere, But I started telling these stories

452
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 4: from my own community, right, Like I sort of became

453
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: sort of an accidental community audience surrogate for trying to

454
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 4: figure out what happened to us as a community. And

455
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 4: so my approach to telling these stories was, as you know,

456
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 4: it was personal, right, and because it was for people

457
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 4: in my immediate community, it was about us. It was

458
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: about what we experienced. And I haven't changed the approach.

459
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 4: So even though I'm telling stories for a broader audience,

460
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 4: an audience of people that have no connection to me,

461
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 4: about places I have no connection to. Right, I'm not

462
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 4: a part of these stories anymore, but bringing that same

463
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 4: approach to it, I think makes it more accessible and

464
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 4: more real.

465
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: Accessible and real, and like it does feel again like

466
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 2: caring you literally, I feel like allow for the listeners

467
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 2: to care about these individuals who have been victims to

468
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 2: these monsters and making it a more reality of like

469
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: this could happen and anywhere it has happened so many places.

470
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: You just haven't uncovered that story yet. Which, Yeah, you

471
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 2: should come to Georgia and.

472
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 4: Oh you've got you've got some weird little guys down there.

473
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 3: Oh you need to down here, a guy on my

474
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: list that I am very interested in.

475
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 2: Excited, I'm excited and nervous because it feels like a constant,

476
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 2: like dystopian level of being in Atlanta. And I'm sure

477
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: you under say of being in Atlanta but in an

478
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: area where so conservative al right, and it's increasing power

479
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 2: here that it's like what I.

480
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 4: Mean, there's a very prominent white supremacist attorney who owns

481
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 4: a lot of real estate in Atlanta.

482
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what ends people here actually, Like

483
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: the understanding when you start discovering what is happening and

484
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: who is who is here and who has control and

485
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: what families have been here.

486
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: It's disgusting anyway.

487
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 4: It's deep and and I think that's important to remember too,

488
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 4: is that part of what I'm trying to emphasize in

489
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 4: these stories is that none of these guys exist in isolation.

490
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 4: These aren't like one off freak occurrences. This is part

491
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 4: of a recurring pattern. This is part of an interconnected

492
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 4: web of people and organizations Like these guys aren't just

493
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 4: springing up like mushrooms after the rain, right right.

494
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: I know, Like we just had an incident where one

495
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: of our state House representative I think, got arrested because

496
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: he was angry about the former. Now, did David Ralston,

497
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: who had been representative here hadn't done enough for the

498
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 2: white people like it was? And if you know anything

499
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: about David Ralston, he was completely concerned, like he was

500
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 2: one of the harshest when it comes to like religious

501
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: rights and all these things. So interestingly that that's how

502
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: it's growing. Instead of being like they loved him and

503
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: that was sufficient enough, ano they're growing even darker.

504
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: It feels like I could be wrong. I mean, he

505
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: did get arrested.

506
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 4: Of course, who's more oppressed than the white men of Atlanta?

507
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 3: Obviously, look at here.

508
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: Can you tell us Obviously we've been talking about future episodes.

509
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: Can you tell us and give us more hints about

510
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: future episodes?

511
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 3: Or you're like, I don't know yet.

512
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 4: The thing is, so I have a list, right like

513
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 4: I you know, been so even before the show started,

514
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: and as I go along, when I come across a

515
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 4: guy and I think, oh, that would make a good episode.

516
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: So I have a list of like it's like, you know,

517
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 4: fifteen pages long of just these sort of like little

518
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 4: ideas that have occurred to me. Guys I'd like to do,

519
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 4: guys I'd like to come back to. I almost never

520
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 4: picked something from the list, just so like I'll never

521
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 4: run there's no risk of like running out of guys.

522
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 4: I can always go back to the list. But like

523
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 4: from a week to week basis. It's just like a

524
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 4: new thing I thought of, Right, So.

525
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: Actually I did this to Antia.

526
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: Drives are crazy, like I will have beginning of outlines

527
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 2: that have been sitting there for years, and she's like,

528
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: we've never done this on an archive.

529
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: It like it was a good idea.

530
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: Then you could always come back to it, you know,

531
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 4: in an emergency, I can always just come back to

532
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 4: willing Luther Peers, you.

533
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: Know, like we're talking of like I've still got in

534
00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: our list.

535
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: I think we were talk about goth and how like

536
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: the feminist movement brought back in and we need to

537
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: talk about that goth is for the girls, thank you.

538
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 3: But it's been sitting there for a year now.

539
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: Think I'm about to move that to our pending folder.

540
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 3: It is bothering me, so fair enough, fair enough. I'm

541
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 3: not very quick to this. Obviously.

542
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 4: I've got a whole folder of like not just you know,

543
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 4: not just the list, but there's a folder of like,

544
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 4: oh episodes in development where I did I spent a

545
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 4: whole day starting an episode.

546
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want to do that. I'm not

547
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: doing that this week. Yeah, I do feel like thirty

548
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: of those to be fair.

549
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: We also have uh the outline for understanding Project twenty

550
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: twenty five.

551
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: It's too late.

552
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's too late.

553
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: But trying to understand it ourselves is like, that's just

554
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: current events now, Yeah it is, and that's exactly where

555
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: we are. We're like, we don't even know at this point.

556
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: It's too late because we have to talk about so

557
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: many things, and I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be outdated.

558
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: I can't wait for our future selves to come back

559
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: to these episodes and look back, and I'm I'm hoping

560
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: it's gonna get better instead of being like, yep, that

561
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: shouldn't That was the warning sign.

562
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: It will get better eventually. That's that's right.

563
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: You know.

564
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 4: I don't know what the time scale on that is,

565
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 4: but at some point things will be better than they

566
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 4: are now.

567
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: Like I need that, Yeah, I need it to be

568
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: in my lifetime, in our lifetime instead of after the.

569
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: Fact that I'm less confident about, you know, I get like,

570
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 4: you know, we I think, you know, I tell these

571
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 4: stories of great darkness, right, they don't have happy endings.

572
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 4: It's not like, you know, at the end of the story,

573
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 4: like and everything's fine now because he went to jail.

574
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 4: And it's like, because these aren't isolated incidents. You know,

575
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 4: even if the story ends with this guy died or

576
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 4: this guy went to jail, it's that's actually not a

577
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: happy ending because the movement he was a part of

578
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 4: did not die.

579
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: So the stories don't have happy endings.

580
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 4: And so you know, you might think like, well, these

581
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: are stories of hopelessness, and I don't think that's true.

582
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: I think there is always hope right in understanding where

583
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 4: these men have come from. There is hope that we

584
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 4: can stop that from continuing to happen. Right There is

585
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: hope that by understanding them we can prevent some of

586
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: the harm that they do. But I think that hope

587
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: exists on a very long time scale.

588
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: That's a good line.

589
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: Hope is on a long time scale, is coming right

590
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: now exactly.

591
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: When I think it is important for all of us

592
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 4: to do everything we can, you know, behave as if

593
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 4: you think that hope is for you, but know that

594
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 4: maybe it isn't.

595
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: The hope is for who comes after you, right.

596
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is a message we get a lot when

597
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: we do. We have a series called Female First, and

598
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the women we feature on there, they

599
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: were doing it for the generations that were coming after them,

600
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: and I think that is incredibly important. I'm just curious,

601
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: do you have you noticed doing this podcast some themes

602
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: that are recurrent when you're talking about weird little guys.

603
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess this is something we talk about

604
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 4: in sort of the modern political climate, right that, like,

605
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 4: pointing out their hypocrisy is not like it is not

606
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: a sharp political weapon, because there is so much inherent

607
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 4: hypocrisy in the way the right behaves. Right, they're the

608
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 4: party of traditional values, but like they're not living traditional values.

609
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: But the hypocrisy is stunning, right, Like, so many of

610
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 4: these guys have these secret lives that are very shameful,

611
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 4: and maybe maybe that is part of what motivates them

612
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 4: to lash out or to project an image that is

613
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 4: contrary to the life that they're living. A lot of

614
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 4: them have inappropriate relationships or attractions to children. A lot

615
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 4: of them are hiding parts of their own background. You

616
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 4: know a lot of these white supremacist leaders have a

617
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 4: Jewish grandmother or a Hispanic mom. It is really common

618
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 4: and the hypocrisy is interesting to look at, But I

619
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 4: don't think is that it is an.

620
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: Incisive political tool. Other themes.

621
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 4: They all hate women, right, so we'd little guys come

622
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 4: in a lot of stripes, right, there's I mean a

623
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 4: lot of them are equal opportunity haters, but I think

624
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: for most of them, there is a driving force.

625
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: Right.

626
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 4: They are anti black, they are anti Semitic, they are

627
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 4: they have a specific sort of niche within the movement.

628
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: They have their own little you know, their hobby horse.

629
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 4: But regardless of what kind of guy he is, he

630
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 4: hates women and that is what unites them all.

631
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: It is the driving force of white supremacy.

632
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 4: All right, even the ones with them that are women.

633
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, right, oh no, they definitely they're out there.

634
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: This is as we've been discussing a lot of heavy

635
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: stuff that you deal with, a lot of stuff that

636
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: impacts you emotionally. And we are always interested when we

637
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: talk to people who are doing this kind of work,

638
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: what are some of the things you do to disconnect

639
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: from all of that.

640
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 4: So I always feel so guilty when I answer this question,

641
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 4: Like I was recently speaking to a college class and

642
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 4: like that's something when I speak to younger people, that's

643
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: the question they're always most interested in. It's like, how

644
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 4: do you do this? What is the emotional toll of

645
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 4: doing this. How do you counteract that? And the answer is, like,

646
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 4: I wish I could give them like a tool or

647
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 4: something that is useful or inspiring. And the answer is,

648
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 4: I don't think you should do this to yourself because

649
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: it's not good.

650
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: I'm not good.

651
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 4: I mean the answer is dissociation, compartmentalization, and like, those

652
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 4: are not healthy strategies that I would recommend.

653
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: But like.

654
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: You know, I'm I'm I have formed a system that

655
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 4: works for me, but I would not recommend it to others. Right,

656
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: you know, you're asked about January sixth, like that to me, like,

657
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 4: this is this is something I.

658
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: Should seak to a therapist about.

659
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,479
Speaker 4: Like but like in my memories of that day, I

660
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: see myself externally, like so completely dissociated that my own

661
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: memory of events is not a POV from my own eyes.

662
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

663
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: So the answer is you set up a separate part

664
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 4: of yourself that experiences these things.

665
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. Let me ask you,

666
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: how often do you just cling to your dogs?

667
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Oh?

668
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 4: The dogs are the dogs are my most important research assistants,

669
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: right right? I have two doc sins Auto and Buck.

670
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: They are perfect angels cut they are. I think we

671
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 4: could all learn a lot from Auto. I mean, Buck

672
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 4: is a very thoughtful dog. He often looks very pensive,

673
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: like he's got the weight to the world on his shoulders.

674
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 4: Otto has never in his life experienced sadness. He doesn't

675
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 4: think about anything, nothing is, nothing matters. He is just

676
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 4: pure vibes. He has reached nirvana, and I think we

677
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 4: could learn a lot from him. And not that he

678
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 4: hasn't experienced hardship. He's experienced great hardship. He had back

679
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: surgery a few years ago. It was really touch and go,

680
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 4: like you know, we were all very scared for him.

681
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: He did not care.

682
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 3: He did not care. He was living all the good

683
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 3: drugs and just like a better I'll be better. Yeah.

684
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 4: I mean even when he was paralyzed, he was like whatever,

685
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: I'll just crawl.

686
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 3: He didn't care. He's like to next place.

687
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 4: So that's very aspirational, I think is to to live

688
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 4: like Otto.

689
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: It is aspirational. I want to put that.

690
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: I want to put his picture because my dog is

691
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: just pure sadness. She just uses that as a way

692
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: to guilt trip me and everything, being like, look how

693
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: sad I am.

694
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 3: Give me things. Is it a hound dog?

695
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 2: Now, she's a mixed terrier, wired haired terrier with attitude.

696
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: She's a very quirky character.

697
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 4: I said, depressed terrier has got to be a little

698
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 4: bit dysfunctional, right, because that's a very high energy creature. Right.

699
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 3: Oh, she's both.

700
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 2: She's not necessarily depressed, but she gives me the set

701
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: a lot. The sad face works well. And knowing that

702
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: she will go out often, she'll get treats often, and

703
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: she'll get all the attention often.

704
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: But that is I think such an important part of

705
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 4: the day. Knowing that, Like, no matter what I'm doing,

706
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 4: no matter how deep down this weird, Like I just

707
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: signed up for a South African genealogical service, I had

708
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 4: to convert currency to rand. Like, no matter how deep

709
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: down the hole I am, every two hours, I have

710
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 4: to get up and go outside. Yeah, otherwise someone's gonna

711
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: pee on the rug.

712
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: Who knows, or gonna make you move, They're gonna make

713
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: you see the sunlight.

714
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: It's like it's time.

715
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 4: I think without that I would I would have completely

716
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 4: lost my mind.

717
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that this is and this is where

718
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: we're talking about having to disconnect and using whatever you

719
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: need in order to get to there, and if it's

720
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: a live creature to being like, hey, you have to

721
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 2: take care of me too, and be like, oh yeah,

722
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: let me just look at your face, who's just seemingly

723
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: happy in this non you don't know what's happening in

724
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 2: the world vibe.

725
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 3: I love this. He can't even be part of your world.

726
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: Good for him, Good for him.

727
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: But you know, with all of that, like on top

728
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: of everything you're doing, obviously, telling these stories are so

729
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: important so that we don't pretend like it's not happening.

730
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: We have to know what's going on. We need to

731
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: know the history, we need to know the background. We've

732
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 2: got to understand that this is a part of history

733
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: and why this is horrible. But we need to keep

734
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: moving forward and understanding and unearthing the truth of it all,

735
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: so that in itself is an activism that has to

736
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: happen for those of us who aren't necessarily going to

737
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: research and not necessarily going to you know, get into

738
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: the depths and darkness. What kind of advice you would

739
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: give would you give to us to make sure we're

740
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 2: spreading more of these truths and more of these stories. Obviously,

741
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: outside of telling people about your podcast.

742
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely download my podcast. My mom says it's really good. No,

743
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 4: I think you know. I'm not a political organizer. That

744
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 4: is not a role that I fill in society. But

745
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: I do think that everyone should at least try to

746
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 4: engage on an extremely local level. Like I'm not saying

747
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: you should canvass for your senator. As a matter of fact,

748
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 4: I don't care about that at all. But I do

749
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 4: think you should know who's on your school board. I

750
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 4: do think you should know who's on your city council.

751
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 4: You know, go to a committee meeting that no one

752
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 4: else goes. To get involved on this extremely local level,

753
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 4: because that's going to be our last line of defense here.

754
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 4: And I will say the local school board is a

755
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 4: breeding ground for weird little guys. It has been a

756
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 4: strategy cultivated on the right for decades now to run

757
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 4: their weirdest little freaks for local office. And so your

758
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 4: local school board may have a guy on it who

759
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 4: doesn't think dinosaurs are real. We had one a couple

760
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 4: of years ago in the county, not in the city.

761
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 4: So get involved on the local level. Find your local

762
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 4: weird little guy, because you know, before they start hurting

763
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 4: people they're just out there being kind of a weirdo.

764
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 4: And I bet you have one in your town.

765
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 3: So get out there and get out there and thwart him.

766
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: Thwart him. I feel like you're threatening me. You got

767
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 3: weird little guys? You do you do?

768
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 4: There is a guy on your city council who probably

769
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 4: doesn't think women should vote.

770
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: You know, like, yes, you the listener invariably wherever you.

771
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: Live, go find your weird little guys.

772
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 3: I'm not saying you should do anything to him. I'm

773
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: just saying you should know about him. I'm not advocating

774
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 3: anything here that's going the wrong way.

775
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 4: It no, because there's there's if there's one thing they hate,

776
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 4: it's you knowing about them.

777
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, that's great advice. And right

778
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: now that's we keep talking about that too. It's the

779
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: importance of local politics and being really aware about that,

780
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: trying to find your little for a little guy.

781
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 3: And knowing that this happens everywhere where.

782
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 4: After Unite the Right, people were looking at Charlottesville like wow,

783
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 4: like what's wrong with Charlottesville, right? And the answer is

784
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 4: this could have easily happened anywhere. It has, it does

785
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 4: it will, it could happen anywhere, and so you know,

786
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 4: these aren't exceptional stories. It's just we are not allowed

787
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: to think of them in context because these stories are

788
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 4: not told in context. Like I hear from listeners all

789
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: the time where you know, their town gets mentioned and

790
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 4: they're like, I didn't know that happened here. I didn't

791
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 4: know that guy lived here. I got an email from

792
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 4: a listener who I mentioned in passing an incident where

793
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 4: the Klan tried to blow up an elementary school in Columbus,

794
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: Ohio in nineteen seventy nine to prevent bussing for integration,

795
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 4: and this person had gone to that school in the

796
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 4: years immediately following that, and he's like, I didn't I

797
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 4: didn't know they tried to blow up my elementary school

798
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 4: to prevent integration. I didn't know that happened here. And

799
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 4: it happens everywhere, but we don't tell these stories. We

800
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 4: don't know these stories, and so it's not something that

801
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 4: happens in another town to other people.

802
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: It's happening where you live.

803
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great point, because we get that a

804
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: lot in the South, and we were we made the point,

805
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: you know, after Georgia unfortunately went read this election, but

806
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: it was so close, and that's amazing because it normally

807
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: isn't and there's so many obstacles in place that keep

808
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: it that way, and so it can happen anywhere. And

809
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: now we're getting the dismantling of DEI, the Department of Education.

810
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: The information part of this and what stories do get

811
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: told is really important. And it doesn't surprise me that

812
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: the listener would write in and be like, I've never

813
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: heard of that, even though I lived here. It went

814
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 1: there soon after. So, well, are there any other things?

815
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: We know that your episodes are kind of in flex,

816
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: but aren't there any other things in the future that

817
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: you're looking forward to? Anything you're working on?

818
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, looking forward to hard to say. I mean,

819
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: I I do get genuine joy out of like digging

820
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 4: around and finding my little, you know, diamonds in the rough,

821
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 4: little my horrible little facts amidst the you know, the

822
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 4: the avalanche of research.

823
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: That I do.

824
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 4: So I don't I don't want to give the wrong

825
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 4: impression that I'm you know, I'm out here suffering. I

826
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 4: genuinely enjoy the research process. It's it's satisfying to me.

827
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 4: So I love making the show. I hope I get

828
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 4: to make it forever. Actually, I hope I run out

829
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 4: of guys. I hope they stop making new guys and

830
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 4: I run out.

831
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 3: Of Double Edged Sword.

832
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: Yes, and we enjoyed your podcast, I immensely. It is

833
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: so good. Your storytelling is amazing. Your ability to really

834
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: show a lot of empathy and compassion the victims and

835
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: the people that you're talking about is beautiful. Your layout

836
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: in your stories is really really like it it gets me.

837
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm like sitting in the car and not want to

838
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: leave trying to finish out the story because it's just

839
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: so enticing.

840
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, I love my tangled little webs.

841
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think I lately I find myself focusing

842
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 4: more on trying to more explicitly connect these things to

843
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 4: our current political situation right that like these aren't fringe

844
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 4: ideas anymore, and sort of drawing these direct through lines

845
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 4: to like, you know, here's this Nazi at a rally

846
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 4: in two thousand and four, and here's this idea and

847
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 4: how it's destroying your life right now from the White House.

848
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: YEP, which is very that's so important. It's so important

849
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: and necessary. So thank you so much for doing that work,

850
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Where can the good listeners

851
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 1: find you?

852
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 4: You can find Weird Little Guys wherever you get your podcasts.

853
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: Any podcast app that you like it is there, so

854
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 4: please listen to it so that Sophie will be proud

855
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 4: of me.

856
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: We all want Sophie's approval. Approval.

857
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: Yes, so listen to Weird Little Guys wherever you get

858
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 3: your podcasts. I'm on Blue Sky. I don't know. Posting

859
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 3: isn't even fun anymore. I feel like posting used to

860
00:42:59,239 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: be fun.

861
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you, thank you, Thank you

862
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: so much for being here. Come back anytime.

863
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 3: Please, Thank you guys so much for having me.

864
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Yes, but listeners in the meantime, if you would like

865
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: to contact us, you can. You can email us at

866
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: Hello at stuff onnevertold you dot com. You can find

867
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: us on Blue Sky at Momstuff podcast, or on Instagram

868
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff one never told you for us

869
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have a tea public store, and we

870
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.

871
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya,

872
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you

873
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You is production by

874
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts on my heart Radio, you

875
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: can check out the Art Radio, Apple podcast, or wherever

876
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.