1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural, 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Captain Wrong. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premier Networks, or their sponsors 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. 11 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: Hey everyone, Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact, 12 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from 14 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talked with the top experts. 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today 16 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 4: we're going to be speaking with doctor Paul Smith. Paul's 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 4: one of these guys where you could fill the whole 18 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 4: hour with just his resume. He's just done so many 19 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 4: amazing things. Most notably, of course, Paul served in the 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 4: government Stargate remote viewing Psychic Espionage Program at Fort Meade, Maryland, 21 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 4: and he's one of only five Army personnel to be 22 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 4: personally trained in coordinate remote viewing by Hal put Off 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 4: and Ango Swan at the famed Stanford Research Institute. Paul 24 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 4: retired from the Army in nineteen ninety six and founded 25 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 4: the Remote Viewing Instructional Services, Inc. Which offers full time, 26 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 4: full service remote viewing training. He's authored two books and 27 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: continues to write tea each consult and lecture on remote viewing. 28 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,279 Speaker 4: For today's interview, Paul's going to be talking about another 29 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 4: one of his interests, which happens to be UFOs, and 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 4: he has an absolutely incredible story to share with us 31 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 4: on research he's been doing with what maybe, in fact, 32 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 4: one of the very first modern UFO sightings, even pre 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 4: dating Kenneth Arnold's famous nineteen forty seven sighting. Hey Paul, 34 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 4: good to see you. 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 5: It was good to see you again. 36 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 4: Yes, sir, and we're going to be back this year. 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 4: You're coming to contact in the Desert. We're all very 38 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 4: happy about that. 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 5: And I'm very excited. I've been, let's see, well, last 40 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 5: year and the year before both times, and it was 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 5: great experience. I mean, all you guys know how to 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 5: really do it upright, And I appreciate. 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 4: That those are our first two years at the Helm, 44 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 4: and this year, believe it or not, seems even bigger 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: and better. If you can believe that we've got you. 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 5: Guys are early on the radar. I have to say, 47 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 5: you're inda on the right. Everybody knows what contact the 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 5: desert is. They even know it by your initial ci right, right, right. 49 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 5: That's been out there a lot lately. I've seen that 50 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 5: it's awesome, So. 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 4: We're excited about that. So how did you get involved 52 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 4: in this case about Roland? 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 5: Paul? 54 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 4: This is an amazing, amazing thing that you stumbled on. 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 4: I guess how did it happen? 56 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 5: I should probably give you a little background first. My 57 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 5: first ever involvement with UFOs was when I was a kid. 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 5: It was late fifties, early sixties. We'd get in my 59 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 5: neighbor's basement and we tune this old FAAM radio in 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 5: between channels, and of course you get all these weird, 61 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 5: staticky things coming out. We thought we were listening to UFOs, 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 5: And of course this is the very beginning of the 63 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 5: UFO adventure really in modern times, and I didn't have 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 5: much more to do with it until nineteen eighty three, 65 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 5: when I don't know, some folks don't know who had 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 5: Dames is He and I had a long conversation about 67 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 5: UFOs and I heard story, you know, I heard about 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 5: Betty and Barney Hill, I heard about Rendelsom Forrest, all 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 5: this stuff. First time that I'd really been exposed to it. Then, 70 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 5: for the next seven eight years, in the remote Viewing program, 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 5: we did a bunch of remote viewings against UFO and 72 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 5: et kind of targets. That's where I really got kind 73 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 5: of exposed to this. But for decades I kind of 74 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 5: held this at arm's length. I didn't like how it 75 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 5: was interfacing with remote viewing at the time because a 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 5: lot of fantasy and speculation got involved in it, and 77 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 5: I didn't think it was doing remote viewing much good. 78 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 5: This of course after it went public. But now that 79 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 5: we have really good foundational evidence for this, I mean, 80 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 5: you don't get really better evidence than, for example, the 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 5: tic TAC right military video, their sense Yeah video. I 82 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 5: counted seven different evidential streams on the tic TAC thing, 83 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 5: all confirming the same phenomenon, and that's how we judged 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 5: the legitimacy of a phenomenon is when you get multiple 85 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 5: independent evidence streams that all say the same thing, can 86 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 5: count on that being a legitimate, observational legitimate. 87 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 4: You've talked about remote viewers seeing the same exact thing. 88 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 5: In this case, I'm talking about the heart evidence. So 89 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 5: the Navy produced in for example, the Nimmen strike group. 90 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 5: You know, observationally, you don't get better evidence than that. 91 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 5: The skeptics who are trying to delegitimize that, they don't 92 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 5: know what the hell they're talking about, frankly, but that 93 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 5: has got me on board, and I've continued to been 94 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 5: involved in it, just buying the scenes really for some time. 95 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 5: I was asked back in twenty eleven to get my 96 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 5: little group of remote viewers to remote view a major 97 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 5: of a UFO event. I didn't know what it was, 98 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 5: because you have to be blind to the target. And 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 5: afterwards I found ot it actually was the TICTAC event. 100 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 5: And you know, we had a really strong corporate backing 101 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 5: for that. I can't say who the corporation was because 102 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 5: I signed an NDA that will get me in a 103 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 5: lot of trouble if they get mad. And even recently 104 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 5: we did another project for another defense contractor. Again they 105 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 5: don't want to be named, but produce some very interesting evidence. 106 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 5: So that's the background to this. Now what's interesting is 107 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 5: back in well now, I forgot the date exactly. I 108 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 5: think it's around two thousand and eight or two thousand 109 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 5: and nine. I was living in Austin, Texas. So I'm 110 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 5: an active Mormon, you know. In fact, I went to 111 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 5: church yesterday, right. My Mormon bishop called me up one 112 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 5: day and say, hey, Paul, I need your help. I said, okay, 113 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 5: I mean, that wasn't unusual. He's usually looking for help. 114 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 5: He said, I've been visiting this guy who's really on 115 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 5: his last legs. I don't remember exactly how he said that, 116 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 5: but that's meant. And he just lives up the street 117 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 5: from you, and you guys have some things in common, 118 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 5: and I think you would be a better fit to 119 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 5: interact with him. And so I said okay, and the 120 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 5: Bishop Dan gave me a few more word groups on this, 121 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 5: and then I went up to meet this guy. He 122 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 5: literally lived a block from me, and he'd been there 123 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 5: for like ten years. And I find out that he 124 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 5: has this amazing UFO experience, and I'd sort of gotten 125 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: into that beforehand, Dan It told me a little bit 126 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 5: about it, and so I brought along my little digital 127 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 5: recorder and I interviewed him. It was a kind of 128 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 5: a deathbed interview, and he told me his story. He 129 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 5: was there's long gaps in his conversation because he was 130 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 5: struggling for breath. He was on oxygen. But we had 131 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 5: this just amazing conversation, and he told me about an 132 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 5: event that happened in Pasco, actually over Hanford Nuclear Plant 133 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 5: outside of Pascal, Washington, the Tri Cities and southeastern Western State. 134 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 5: He was stationed there and he had kind of a 135 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 5: double mission and he was training this he's supposed to train, 136 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 5: helped train this squadron of fighter pods. They're flying F 137 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 5: six Well it's a little confusing, and then F six 138 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 5: F or an F nine F Hellcat. They're the same, 139 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 5: got the same name, but there one's an upgraded version 140 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 5: of the other. And I think these might be most 141 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 5: are piston driven. They're prejet. 142 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 4: This is nineteen forty five, and firstly yet I don't 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 4: think started till late nineteen forty five, right. 144 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 5: That's correct, So they were radial engines. You know. He 145 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 5: mentioned in our little interview that some of them were 146 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 5: alcohol injected to give them more more power and more 147 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 5: of a ceiling. So I think these may have been 148 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 5: the F nine fs, the more advanced kind. But there 149 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 5: he was training them, but they were also providing combat 150 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 5: cover for the Hanford plant, which was at that time 151 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 5: one of the most sensitive and most highly secret facilities 152 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 5: in the United States. They contruded building the bomb that 153 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 5: eventually got not long after that got dropped on Japan. 154 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: I think about this is of course that we've heard 155 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 4: time and time again how often UFOs are associated with 156 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 4: specifically military nuclear sites. 157 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 5: Yes, and that is intriguing because they did well. There's 158 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 5: a long history about this. I'm reading Richard Dolan's book 159 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 5: right now, UFOs for the twenty first Century, and he 160 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 5: gets into that quite a bit. It's quite intriguing anyway. 161 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 5: So they get this alert the General Quarters, and they 162 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 5: jump in their planes and they fly and they're directed 163 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 5: to this radar bogie that's over Hanford at multiple tens 164 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 5: of thousands of feet. At that time, radar was little 165 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 5: in exact so exactly how high it was, and wrote 166 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 5: Roland probably didn't get informed anyway. But he's leading the 167 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: six ship Squattern and their orders were to get up 168 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 5: and shoot this thing down. And Roland says, of course 169 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 5: those for their orders, right, but it. 170 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 4: Was actually, if you're over that and think about this 171 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 4: a different time, nineteen forty five, Yeah, of course, UFO 172 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 4: wasn't even remotely in the vernacular or any. 173 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 5: They had the food fighter thing, right. 174 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah, during World War Two they had 175 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 4: some of the food fighters. But this, you know, over 176 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 4: America like this. 177 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 5: Well over the plant. I mean, it almost does onen't 178 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 5: matter what it was that flew into that airspace because 179 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 5: of the nature of the security surround as plant. If 180 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 5: it had been a civilian airliner, if they couldn't get 181 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 5: it to land, they would have shot it down. You know, 182 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 5: that was their mission. And so they're going out to 183 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 5: do this and the problem is this thing was way 184 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 5: above their ceiling and they were told to use maximum power, 185 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 5: you know, maximum combat power, which is straining the capability 186 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 5: of the aircraft. And they were flying up and yeej 187 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 5: you know esh, And they didn't get close enough to 188 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 5: really do anything. But they did get close enough for 189 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 5: rolling to get a give me a really good description 190 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 5: of what this thing looked like. 191 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: Hold on, Paul We're going to take a quick break 192 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 4: right there. We're going to come back and pick it 193 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 4: up on the other side of the break with what 194 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 4: these what this UFO looked like back in nineteen forty five, 195 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 4: pre Kenneth Arnald. Very interesting stuff with Paul Smith. We'll 196 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 4: be right back here listening to Beyond Contact on the 197 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 4: iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We 198 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: are back on Beyond Contact. We're talking to Paul Smith. Paul, 199 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: you're telling us about they're chasing down this UFO over 200 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 4: the nuclear base. Go ahead and pick it up and 201 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 4: tell us what's happening. 202 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 5: The size of this thing really astonished Roland and his 203 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 5: fill of pilots. He described it in various places. One 204 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 5: place he describes being the size of three aircraft carriers together, 205 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 5: and in this particular interview he described it as being 206 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 5: two aircraft carriers together. Now I think the three is 207 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 5: probably more accurate because he also said it was saucer shaped, 208 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 5: which means that it would be just as long as 209 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 5: it was wide, which is close to me. 210 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 4: I interject something right here. What's interesting about that, what's 211 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 4: fascinating about that is this is nineteen forty five. The 212 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 4: word flying saucer was actually coined in nineteen forty seven, 213 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 4: yet when kennth Doarnold had his sighting. So for the 214 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 4: fact that this guy called it saucer shaped, do you 215 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 4: not find that astonishing? 216 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 5: Well, not as much, And the reason for that is, 217 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 5: of course I'm a very simple minded guy, so I 218 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 5: get easily amused ball. So well, that hasn't been my 219 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 5: impression of you at all. So yeah, I mean, this 220 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 5: was like the early two thousands, and of course the 221 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 5: term flying saucer had been around for fifty six years 222 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 5: by then, so Ronald Roland using the term saucer isn't 223 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 5: particularly exceptional because this was, of course fifty six years 224 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 5: after Ken Arnold came up with that term, and as 225 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 5: a consequence, Roland had some familiarity with the UFO literature 226 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: since then, so I think he probably used that term 227 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 5: because he was familiar with it over that intervening period, 228 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 5: and the thing was basically saucer shaped. Was not a surprise, because, 229 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 5: of course, a lot of the Obbs innovations we've had 230 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 5: and I've been reported are described in terms of saucer shaped. 231 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 5: And you know, Ken can Arnold coined that term of course, 232 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 5: and so you know, rolling siding about this, and one 233 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 5: of my concerns actually at the time was that maybe 234 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 5: his his engagement with the UFO literature since his experience, 235 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 5: might have colored his his account a little bit. But 236 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 5: for reasons i'll talk about later, I think that he 237 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 5: probably was reporting it pretty accurately in terms of as 238 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 5: it happened. At the time. He's talking about this, saying 239 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 5: it's the size of two or three aircraft carriers hovering 240 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 5: in the air over Hanford. The added interest here was 241 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 5: that it was partially obscured by clouds, which seemed to 242 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 5: be artificially generated, like some kind of fogging mechanism or machine. 243 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 4: And of course, Paul, that's another one of these things 244 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 4: we've heard in various UFO accounts that they seem to 245 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 4: kind of mask behind clouds that. 246 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 5: In this case, apparently their tech wasn't working great, because 247 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 5: he says it was as if some of the emitters 248 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 5: just weren't working. So he could see a fair amount 249 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 5: of this thing. Part of it was obscured by clouds, 250 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 5: but part of it was very visible, and as he's 251 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 5: trying to attack it, he's getting a really good look 252 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 5: at this. Now I have done a little bit of 253 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 5: research to try and find out if there's a record 254 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 5: of this, and some other folks have tried it as well, 255 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 5: and we don't seem to be able to locate the 256 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 5: d Day Book or whatever they call it. This particular squadron. 257 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 5: You would think that there might be gun camera footage 258 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 5: as well if they fired at it. Those cameras were 259 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 5: designed to only work quality guns were firing. That's also 260 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 5: could easily have been lost or it wouldn't be recorded 261 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 5: over because then they're using real film. Right, So, at 262 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 5: any rate, we have his testimony about it, and he 263 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 5: described this big saucer shaped thing with these little ports 264 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 5: around it, and I forget the exact term you use 265 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 5: right now. The great thing about my talk is I'm 266 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 5: going to actually play his interview for the folks who 267 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 5: are attend. Yeah, I've had to do some editing with it, 268 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 5: because of course there are these long gaps. He talked 269 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 5: very quietly, but the wonders of modern technology allow me 270 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 5: to enhance the volume so it can be heard and understood, 271 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 5: and I'm going to edit out the long gaps that 272 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 5: he had. 273 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 4: In Actually wonderful and it's always great hearing a first 274 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 4: hand account directly from the first hand witness. I always 275 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 4: love that. 276 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he's pretty colorful and I don't mean cussing, 277 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 5: although that happened right now. And again he was in 278 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 5: the navy, right, But he's actually quite descriptive when he 279 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 5: talks about this, and so anyway, this thing's huge. He 280 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 5: talks about detail on the surface of it all that 281 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 5: was mostly smooth. He said that there's this kind of 282 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 5: a ridge running nears aning tails, kind of vertically from 283 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 5: nose to tail of this thing. I don't know if 284 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 5: it's a saucer shape. How do you tell where the 285 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 5: nose in the tail is? But maybe the ridge it 286 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 5: self help He said it was kind of he said 287 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 5: it's cone shaped. I think he might have meant a 288 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 5: triangular and cross section that ran around this thing. And 289 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 5: of course we do get some some descriptions on the 290 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 5: uap Ufou literature that mentioned a kind of a keel 291 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 5: that goes around the thing, you know, a keel in 292 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 5: terms of like a sailboat keel, except right, not sticking down, 293 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 5: and so that that matches what others have described. Since 294 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 5: so you know, he's in quite amount of detail which 295 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 5: I can't possibly get into here. Because I you know, 296 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 5: my memory doesn't work that well, and I don't want 297 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 5: to read you the transcript right now, obviously, But they 298 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 5: kept going up and trying to get there, and then 299 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 5: they course stall out when they got above their their 300 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 5: manageable ceiling, and they'd run out of air and they 301 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 5: fall down, and they go up and try and get 302 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 5: there and fall back down again, and it's in a 303 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 5: way kind of an exciting story. Finally, the thing, he said, 304 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 5: just after they tried it enough and apparently it got 305 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 5: satisfied whatever it was there for, he said, it just 306 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 5: ascended vertically at or tremendou rate of speed and disappeared. 307 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 4: Once again, another very frequently heard of count from UFOs. 308 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 4: They either take off vertically or horizontally instantly. 309 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 5: Yep. And of course, again this is nineteen forty five, 310 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 5: this is this is before so many reports have come in, 311 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 5: and he seemed, I mean, we're talking about a guy 312 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 5: who is really breathing oxygen, probably his last few breaths. 313 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 5: You know, he lived for about another two weeks I 314 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 5: guess from there. But yeah, he was clearly in some distress. 315 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 5: But he really really wanted to get this story out now. 316 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 4: Before even like we mentioned earlier. This is before we 317 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 4: had jet aircraft. 318 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, you know, there's some familiarity with it. Well, 319 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 5: not so much. I mean, the Germans had fielded there. 320 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: What is it two, I think is what the designation 321 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 5: was jet, which is of course took us somewhat by surprise, 322 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 5: and we were trying to capture recapture that. But I 323 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 5: think a lot of that was still fairly classified. Now. 324 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 5: Speaking of classified, of course you always debrief after a mission. 325 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 5: That that's the standard military practice. And so he and 326 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 5: his fellow pilots were brought in and debriefed on this, 327 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 5: and then they were told they could not speak about 328 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 5: it again for the rest of their lives. That said, 329 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 5: it was highly classified military information. Of course the military 330 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 5: will do that is something they don't know what it is. 331 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 5: They'll say, right, well, we're better off classifying it now 332 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 5: and admitting our error later than we are not classifying 333 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 5: it and have it really come back and bite us 334 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 5: in the butt. 335 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 4: Did he speculate what he thought it was? Did he 336 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 4: think of it as an extraterrestrial craft or did he 337 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 4: think of it as another maybe a German or military He. 338 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 5: Actually did not, And that's one of the more interesting 339 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 5: and convincing things here is that he did not state 340 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 5: explicitly he thought it was from outer space, or that 341 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 5: it was you know, extraterrest or anything like that. He didn't. 342 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 5: He didn't. It was kind of just the facts, Just 343 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 5: the facts, man, you know. It was kind of that 344 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 5: way he presented it, which is, of course, when you 345 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 5: get into the remote viewing world, that's what we want 346 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 5: to hear from a remote viewer. We want them to 347 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 5: describe their experience. We don't want them to speculate on 348 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 5: their experience, and he was pretty much doing that. Of course, 349 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 5: in the military you're trained to do that because again, 350 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 5: they want they don't want you to try and tell 351 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 5: them what it was. They want you to just tell 352 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 5: them exactly what happened. And that's what he was doing. 353 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 4: Do we ever have any testimony from the other five 354 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 4: pilot or four pilots that weren't. 355 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 5: So that was the second thing that made me think 356 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 5: that he was giving me to it, giving it to 357 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 5: me straight. In the process of researching for this talk, 358 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 5: I came across something that I hadn't found in the past. 359 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 5: And of course, you know, the Internet gets more and 360 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 5: more robust every year. You know more people add stuff 361 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 5: to it that's been there but hasn't been available publicly, 362 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 5: and I think I have to go back and review this, 363 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 5: but I think it was a move on investigator who 364 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 5: got really interested in Roland Powell's case, and so we 365 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 5: went around and found at least one of Paul's squadron 366 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 5: mates who confirmed the story and reported it in pretty 367 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 5: much the same terms that Roland did. 368 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 4: So well, now that's fascinating, Paul, that we are collaborating witness. 369 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 4: That is fantastic. 370 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: Paul. 371 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break here, pick up the rest 372 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 4: of this on the other side of the break, talk 373 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 4: more with Paul about the other collaborating witness and about 374 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 4: the deathbed confession itself. You're listening to Beyond Contact right 375 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 4: here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal 376 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. 377 00:20:58,840 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: Paul. 378 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: Let's pick it up right there. So you said, there's 379 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: another investigator that did, in fact find one of his 380 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: fellow pilots that saw the exact same thing. 381 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 5: Yes, and pretty much confirmed everything that Roland had said. 382 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 5: I say everything because there's some detail that the second 383 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 5: guy didn't report that Roland did, and vice versa. Right, 384 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 5: that standard for legitimate eyewitness reporting is that no witness 385 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 5: sees it exactly the same way and doesn't necessarily highlight 386 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 5: the same details as somebody else does. But when they 387 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 5: come together the Venn diagram, when you don't put them together, 388 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 5: they pretty much support each other, and you know that's 389 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 5: that's likely to be legitimate testimony. And that was the 390 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 5: case with this. But my impression was that this guy 391 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 5: essentially was saying exactly the same thing. And as far 392 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 5: as I can tell, they never really had any contact 393 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 5: with each other since the event happened, so they couldn't 394 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 5: compare stories. And even in an only have the stories 395 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 5: come together, it's like these were again independent evidence streams 396 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 5: in a sense. 397 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: Well, these two gentlemen have went what fifty sixty seventy 398 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 4: years without ever telling their story. And this is a 399 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 4: case I've never heard about. I couldn't find it anywhere online. 400 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 4: It seems to me like instantly I heard this, I thought, 401 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 4: I wonder if there's more cases out there, people who 402 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 4: have had these sort of encounters and it just never 403 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 4: gets reported and it never gets you know, disability, Paul, 404 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 4: We've had these numerous deathbed confessions over the years of 405 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 4: people from you know, from Roswell, we had Philip Corso, 406 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 4: we had Lieutenant Walter Hunt. There's different people. Paul Hellier, 407 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 4: at the end of his life said a lot of things. 408 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 4: He came forward with, what do you think about deathbed confessions. 409 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 4: Do you think that they're stronger evidence because the person 410 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 4: feels they need to purge this to the world, or 411 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 4: do you think they're weaker because maybe at the end 412 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: of life people are a little delusional or something. 413 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's a challenging question. Oftentimes deathbed confessions in 414 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 5: the legal world are taken to be more truthful than 415 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 5: what somebody has said during their lifetime, and of course 416 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 5: there's reading for that, because oftentimes people have motivations to 417 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 5: either be quiet about something or to tell it differently. 418 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 5: And when they know they're about to go and there 419 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 5: won't be any repercussions, there's a way nobody can get 420 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 5: even with them or whatever, then they'll come clean and 421 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 5: they'll they'll tell the real story. Now, of course, of course, 422 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 5: there is a possibility there's some simility involved or whatever, 423 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 5: or medical condition that alters their perceptions or memories and things, 424 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 5: and that's always a possibility, but oftentimes you can kind 425 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 5: of evaluate that in the course of the conversation because 426 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 5: people who do have some dementia or whatever, there are 427 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 5: obvious tells there that tell you that. And in this 428 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 5: case with Roland, he seemed totally totally clear that his daughter, 429 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 5: one of his daughters, was there with him, and she 430 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 5: was you know, she treated him like he was a 431 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 5: totally competent human being. You know, sometimes when when you're 432 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 5: dealing with someone with dementia, you kind. 433 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 4: Of yeah, almost. 434 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 435 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 5: Now, one thing I want to add though, this wasn't 436 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 5: the first time he told the story. He there's been 437 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 5: a book that written about his life and it was 438 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 5: privately published. It was like by a writer and I'm 439 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 5: blanking on the name of the book right now, in 440 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 5: which it covered his whole life and then one small 441 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 5: part of it was about his UFO experiences. So he 442 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 5: had told it before, but it wasn't something that he 443 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 5: had rehearsed numerous times. I think his kids may have 444 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 5: heard him tell the story as well some point. 445 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 4: But the other pilot is he still alive? 446 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I haven't checked in that. He was, 447 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 5: of course in his mid to late eighties. When this 448 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 5: interview took place. Yeah, so Roland died and I don't 449 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 5: know whatever it was two thousand and eight, whenever it was, 450 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 5: and I'll remember that date precisely when when I give 451 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 5: my talk. But but yeah, and I don't know. It'd 452 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 5: be interesting if he's still around, I'd love to give 453 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 5: him a call, or if he's closed, maybe visiting even 454 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 5: and get a second, a second take on his story 455 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 5: as well. 456 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 4: Any corroboration you can get always makes it much stronger. 457 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 4: Do you have other evidence that supports the fact that 458 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 4: this may have happened? 459 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 5: So the first thing was the way he presented it 460 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 5: seemed to me is very straightforward and nonspeculative, Okay. The 461 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 5: second was this confirmation from this guy. The third sort 462 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 5: of was the fact that he did tell a writer 463 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 5: and it is in a book, and the account in 464 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 5: the book is pretty much I mean, there's always different 465 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 5: changes in different accounts of things, but the account in 466 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 5: the book pretty much confirmed it was very much, in fact, 467 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 5: not just pretty much, very much along the lines of 468 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 5: what he told to me that day. His daughter kind 469 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 5: of confirmed at least that, of course she went there, 470 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 5: but she had heard the story and she confirmed that 471 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 5: he'd been pretty consistent in telling this over the years, 472 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 5: and so on, and so as far as further external 473 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 5: objective evidence, I don't have more of that. I think 474 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 5: it's pretty remarkable that we have the one case of 475 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 5: his squadron mate, many years after the fact, also telling 476 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 5: the same story. 477 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 4: Oh. 478 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 5: I love that. 479 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 4: That's a strength right there. It just doubles the credibility 480 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 4: of it. I always love to see that. Wasn't there 481 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 4: another experience he had? He had second UFO siding, didn't he? 482 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: He did? 483 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 5: He did, And it's in a way, maybe even more 484 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 5: remarkable than this one because of the physical effects it had. 485 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 5: So he had after he retired from the from the Navy, 486 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 5: he was still active in consulting from military kinds of stuff, 487 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 5: Navy kind of stuff, and he was hired, it sounds 488 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 5: like from his account, he was hired by our Chief 489 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 5: of Naval Operations his office to go support the Brazilian 490 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 5: Navy in teaching their pilots how to how to operate 491 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 5: off of aircraft carriers. And the Brazilian Navy had a carrier, 492 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 5: have a photo of it. 493 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 4: Wait, they have a photo of the object or the 494 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 4: chat the. 495 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 5: Photo of the carrier. So so yeah, so you can 496 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 5: see what the ship was. And he was there advising 497 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 5: the Brazilian navy, and he talks about one time, they're 498 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 5: about two hundred miles off the coast, and of course 499 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 5: there's a little sidebar here. Brazil has a lot UFO 500 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 5: UAP reports a lot of them, and even some of 501 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 5: these USO under you unidentified submerged objects by coming in 502 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 5: and going out of the water, which there's another story 503 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 5: about that. Maybe if we get a chance, we'll get to. Anyway, 504 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 5: he's on the deck of this carrier's going along and 505 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 5: he notices this odd cloud off some distance away, and 506 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 5: it was, he said, it was quite long and with 507 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 5: cigar shaped, and it was kind of rolling, a rolling cloud, 508 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 5: and it was moving at a significant rate of speed, 509 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 5: faster than of course could be accounted for by some 510 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 5: cloud being blown along by the wind. And infact, was 511 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 5: very discreet. In other words, you know, a lot of 512 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 5: clouds are kind of fuzzy, and you know, and they 513 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 5: tend to change their shape as he goes this one, 514 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 5: he said, maintained its shape, continued on specific track that 515 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 5: brought it near the carrier, and I asked him how 516 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 5: high it was. He said, well, I wasn't thinking about 517 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 5: it at the time, but if I had to, had 518 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 5: to kind of give you an educated guest right now, 519 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 5: he says, about ten thousand feet up and it comes 520 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 5: and as it's the aircraft carrier, the entire ship heals 521 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 5: over towards it about twenty twenty five degrees. Roland says, 522 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 5: it heals over towards it. And as the object is going, 523 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 5: it's doing this, and he said, as it got further 524 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 5: way than the ship righted itself back up again. This 525 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 5: sounds like it's a cigar shaped UFO of quite large 526 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 5: size that is shrouded in these fake clouds but exerting 527 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 5: some kind of I'm gonna say magnetic because that's the 528 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 5: only thing we can think of, But it could have 529 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 5: been something else, some kind of magnetic pull on the 530 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 5: ship and causing it to lean towards the aircraft. And 531 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 5: we're talking a very large ship, you know, something that 532 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 5: may be almost as large as the object itself, maybe larger, 533 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 5: I don't know, but that in itself is quite remarkable. 534 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 5: Suggesting things about these these objects, assuming they're objects in 535 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 5: this case, that isn't usually discussed. Now we do know 536 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 5: about effects that UFOs have on things, shutting down systems, 537 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 5: activating inter intercontinibilistic missiles, causing cars to shut down, all 538 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 5: that kind of thing. But this is probably one of 539 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 5: the largest effects that I've heard. 540 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 4: That is an exactly the amount of energy and whatever 541 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 4: that must take to do that. That's incredible. We're going 542 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 4: to take our last break right there, Paul. When we 543 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 4: come back, we're going to talk to you more about 544 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: this and then find out about your underwater case that 545 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 4: you're also going to share with us, which we appreciate. 546 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 4: You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast 547 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 4: to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on 548 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron and we're talking to Paul Smith. 549 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 4: That is an incredible thing that this object affected that ship. 550 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 4: It is very interesting to me as you recount the 551 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 4: two different stories from this gentleman, how many times there's 552 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 4: different elements that just seem to be part of the subculture, 553 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 4: part of the folklore that we hear time and time again, 554 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: from cigar shaped to saucer shaped to them being told 555 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 4: not to talk about this ever. I mean, that's something 556 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 4: we hear over and over and over so that alone, 557 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 4: I think does add an element of credibility, because these 558 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 4: are things we've all heard before, right, and. 559 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 5: That brings be mind. One of the other reasons why 560 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 5: I believe Roland Pel's story is because this detail he 561 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 5: presented and they way presented it, and some of the 562 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 5: little facts that pop out of that that if you 563 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 5: were making it up wouldn't occur to you to make up. 564 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 5: That just made it seem way more authentic than I 565 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 5: might otherwise. I mean, I tend to be suspicious and skeptical, 566 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 5: and this seemed authentic because and not just because it 567 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 5: matched other stories that people have told over the years, 568 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 5: but because of the thing some of the details that 569 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 5: came out that didn't match what they told, but seemed 570 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 5: to fit in, you know, in a very integrated way 571 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 5: with what would be an experience with one had in reality. 572 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 5: And that was the case here. And what's interesting further 573 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 5: is that he hadn't told it much. It certainly wasn't 574 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 5: public knowledge. You just searched for it, yet our time 575 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 5: coming up with anything. And yet then later on people 576 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 5: bring out similar details in what seemed to be also 577 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 5: an authentic encounter kind of story. So the evidence kind 578 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 5: of coheres, you know I have. I got my PhD 579 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 5: in philosophy after I after I retired from the army. 580 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 5: And of course one of the things philosophy debates endlessly 581 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 5: is what counts as being true? You know, epistemology, there's 582 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 5: a couple of different theories of how you evaluate something's 583 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 5: being true. One is look coherence surrey, where where a 584 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 5: truth claim was brought in and you can evaluate that 585 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 5: and how it coheres with other truth claims that have 586 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 5: been verified. And this is I think a case of that. 587 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 4: It sounds like an incredible case and I love that 588 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 4: it's another one coming out, and I just hope there's 589 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 4: going to be more like them, because I'm sure there 590 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 4: are many that people never reported. Certainly, it was a 591 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 4: different world, it was a different time. It was way 592 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 4: before social media, way before media itself was as open 593 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 4: as it is today. Hopefully some of these other guys 594 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 4: will come forward as well. Let's hear about your underwater case, Paul, 595 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 4: you said you had another encounter. 596 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 5: Yes, so I only had a small bit to play 597 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 5: here this so we worked a number of UFO UAP 598 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 5: kinds of et kinds of cases for me, sometimes better 599 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 5: done than others. One of the projects involved is I 600 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 5: think an Argentinian, but it could have been a Brazilian 601 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 5: minesweeper off the coast in the Atlantic that was found 602 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 5: a drift and abandoned at some point. It was kind 603 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 5: of like the old story Mary Celest the ship there's 604 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 5: found drifting and the table was set and the food 605 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 5: was on the table and nobody was aboard. It happened. 606 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 5: So in this case, the minesweeper was found in the 607 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 5: same condition, and there were rumors that it might involve 608 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 5: some kind of a UFO UAP. I didn't do much 609 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 5: on this because I kept getting this what we call 610 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 5: analytical over, this mental image of a UFO and a 611 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 5: ship and all kinds of stuff, and I couldn't get 612 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 5: rid of that, and so I thought I was off 613 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 5: in la la land somewhere, and so I just kind 614 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 5: of shut down. But three other viewers worked on this, 615 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 5: and they if you put the whole story together, they 616 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 5: all reported for the same thing. A UFO emerges from 617 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 5: the water, the people on the ship kind of like 618 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 5: go crazy and they all jump off the ship. Okay, 619 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 5: it's kind of where the story went, and there's obviously 620 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 5: more details. I don't know them off the top of 621 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 5: my head at the moment. I hadn't planned of talking 622 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 5: about this, but it came up in a conversation, right, 623 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 5: and that was really pretty intriguing. So essentially what the 624 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 5: remote viewers reported matched fairly closely what the stories were 625 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 5: that had been circulating this abandoned ship. And yet the 626 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 5: viewers are working totally blind. They had no connection to 627 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 5: this story. They did not have any idea was a 628 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 5: ship or a UFO event or anything, and yet they 629 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 5: kind of confirmed in a way that. 630 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 4: Account interestingly, Hey, we're going to have some more hearings. 631 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 4: What do you think about these hearings? 632 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 5: Well, I think that there are step the right direction 633 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 5: how much they're actually going to reveal or resolve So far, 634 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 5: they've been tantalizing but not particularly productive in a way. 635 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 5: These probably will be more of the same, but each 636 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 5: time something a little bit more comes out. And so yeah, 637 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 5: so you know we're chipping away a little at a time. Now. 638 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 5: Of course, you got Jake Barber who's come out. I 639 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 5: don't yet know what to make of the psionics part 640 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 5: of this, but we'll find out because I'm going to 641 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 5: be on that panel at Contact and I'm looking forward 642 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 5: to that, So I'm going to be intrigued to find 643 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 5: out more about that. I'd love to interact with Jake 644 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 5: and his Skywatcher team. I wouldn't even mind going out 645 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 5: on the field with them sometimes to see how it works. 646 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 5: But I haven't been invited yet, so you. 647 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 4: Know, hopefully that will happen. Do you still think that 648 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 4: there's a governmental remote viewing program happening? 649 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 5: Well, you know, for obvious reasons. I get asked that 650 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 5: a lot, and I have to give a kind of 651 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 5: a kind of a indistinct answer here. So first off, 652 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 5: I am absolutely convinced that the military military services are 653 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 5: not doing it anymore. I'm absolutely certain of that. I 654 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 5: have high certainty the CIA is not doing it anymore, 655 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 5: and I have reasons for both of those statements. 656 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 4: Well, why would this be if this was so successful 657 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 4: and you guys had such great hit rates and everything, 658 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 4: Well would the. 659 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, with the CIA, First of all, you hear the 660 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 5: stories where it worked. You don't hear the stories where 661 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 5: it didn't work right, And so there was there were 662 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 5: a lot of false positives and confusions and stuff, And 663 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 5: of course you get that with any intelligence collection source. 664 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 5: There are certain satellite systems which are really at the 665 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 5: time that I'm familiar with them, were top notch, you know, 666 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 5: taken as the as the state of the art, they 667 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 5: were only producing two percent of information that was useful. 668 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 5: And yet you heard you could hear the success stories 669 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 5: there as well, right, And so the same thing can 670 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 5: apply here with remote viewing. So it wasn't as successful 671 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 5: as the hype and media are presenting it as. But 672 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 5: there were times when it absolutely absolutely worked, and that 673 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 5: alone makes it worth continuing to do. But it also 674 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 5: gave a lot of ammunition for the skeptics and the critics, 675 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 5: which there are a bunch. I mean, the whole history 676 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 5: of the remote viewing program was people trying to kill 677 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 5: it and other people trying to keep it alive. It 678 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 5: was just this ongoing tension. And then when it came 679 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 5: time for the CIA to get it back from DA 680 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety five, the director of the CIA at 681 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 5: the time was Robert I think Robert Deutsch, I keep 682 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 5: forgetting what his first name is. Robert Deutsch, who was 683 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 5: adamantly opposed to the remote viewing. He was famous for 684 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 5: when he was Under Secretary of Defense kicking Dale Graff, 685 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 5: who was a very prominent guy in the program out 686 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 5: of his office when Dale said he wanted to brief 687 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 5: him on remote vie. He said, I don't know what 688 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 5: he said exactly, but it was essentially like, I don't 689 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 5: believe in that stuff. Get out of my office. Okay. 690 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 5: So he was director of the CIA at the time 691 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 5: that Congress handed the program with the CIA. Since then, 692 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 5: I've had other contact with pretty senior CI officials who 693 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 5: are themselves pretty sure the CIA is not doing program 694 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 5: because they want to do it. Their contact with me 695 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 5: was because they wanted to get a program going and 696 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 5: they were shot down, even though they're very high level folks. 697 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 5: But the exception here and is the NSA. NSA may 698 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 5: have a program going still. They had one at the 699 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 5: time that I was being trained by Ingo. I know 700 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 5: because some of their folks were being trained by Ingo 701 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 5: at the same time, and we had some conversations about this. 702 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 5: Then a whistleblower along about two thousand and six. NSA 703 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 5: whistleblower claimed that the program was still that there was 704 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 5: still a program there, and I had not heard that 705 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 5: they'd never shut it down, although you wouldn't necessarily hear that, right, 706 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 5: but I would not be surprised if NSA s doing it, 707 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 5: and so I would not ask that an indistinct answer here. 708 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 4: Right, Well, that's all right, yeah, you know these are unknowables, 709 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 4: right yeah, Well, thank you Paul for taking the time. 710 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. We're looking forward to seeing you 711 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 4: at Contact in the Desert this year. You guys can 712 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 4: find Paul at our viewer dot com. You can find 713 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 4: me on Twitter on Instagram at c t D Underscore 714 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 4: Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contactinddesert dot com. 715 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 4: Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown 716 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 4: right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am 717 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 4: Paranormal Podcast Network. 718 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast 719 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out 720 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going 721 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: to iHeartRadio dot com.