1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode one of the War on Drugs Podcastah yeah, 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: kicking it off the right way. My name is Greg 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: Glode and I'm Clayton English. Clayton. I'm gonna start this 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: episode with a statement, what you get The War on 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Drugs was never about drugs. This is Harry j Anslinger, 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: Commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. So the Federal 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Bureau of Narcotics was run by men called Harry Anslinger. 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: The Treasury Department intends to pursue a relentless warfare against 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: the despicable dope battling boxer who praised on the weakness 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: of his fellow man. He's the man who invented the 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: modern War on drugs. In fact, he's the first person 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: to use the friends, almost fifty years before Richard Nixon's 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: America's Public Enemy Number one is drug abuse. In order 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: to fight and defeat this enemy, it is necessary to 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: wage a new all out offensis. It's very hard for 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: people to say, you know, what we're doing right now 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: just works fine, Let's just carry on with what we're doing, 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: right I think we're good here. Leading medical researchers are 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: coming to the conclusion that marijuana, pop grass, whatever you 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: want to call is probably the most dangerous drug in 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: the United States, and we haven't begun to find out 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: all of the ill effects. I went to places that 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: have built most of their approach to drugs around anger, 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: and evidence is clear when you respond primarily with anger, 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: you screwed. The problem gets massively worse. Yeah, but like raging, 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: anger is what we do best. Come on, how are 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: we gonna get We love getting off. Yeah, yeah, that's 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: our number one export. Hey, this is Clayton Engage. This 29 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: is Greg Gold and this is the War on Drugs. 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: All right, Welcome to the first inaugural episode of the 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: War on Drugs Podcasts. I'm Greg Glad Yes, and I'm 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: Clayton English. Clayton, why don't you tell the audience a 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: little bit about yourself, your background, why you're here. Oh yeah, 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm Clayton English. I'm a stand up comedian, actor, writer, 35 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: been doing it for a while. I talk a lot 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: about being pulled over by the police and arrested by 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: the police, because that's just been my reality, you know, 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: just whether traveling from city to city. I've had a 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: lot of run ins with it, so that's always prevalent 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: in my comedy, and I kind of looked at those 41 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: great comedians before me who put you know, social commentary 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: and their stuff, and feel like their material had to 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a social responsibility. So that's 44 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: why that's why I'm here, and I'm here also because 45 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: I feel like it's so much more I need to learn. Like, 46 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: I think I know a lot of things intuitively about 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: this thing we call the war on drugs, but I 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: don't know how deep it actually goes. And I think 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: that's why it's so great here working with you and 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: learning and talking to all these great people, because the 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: knowledge I've learned is just I mean, it could be 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: overwhelming it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, So I definitely feel that 53 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: doing this job day in and day out. You're just like, 54 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: it's a lot of process, a lot of process, a 55 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: lot of process, but I think we put it in 56 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: a good way so people can understand it. Yeah. I 57 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: think you're good about that. Now, you know. I went, 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: now you got to tell the people something about you. Yeah, yeah, 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: so you know. I my name's Greg Glad. I'm the 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: senior fellow for an organization called a Marriage from Prosperity. 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 1: They're a part of the Stand Together philanthropic community, which 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: seeks to solve some of the nation's most pressing problems. 63 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: I work on improving the effectiveness of the criminal justice 64 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: system and protecting our communities. I work towards stopping the 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: system from incarcerating people who have not violated anyone's life, liberty, 66 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: or property rights. That includes the ten of thousands of 67 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: people that have been unnecessarily incarcerated due to the War 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: on drugs. You can't carse your way out of addiction, 69 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: and that's one of the many reasons why you know, 70 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: we wanted to start this podcast. In conversation with you all. Yeah, 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: you said that like you was in a hostage situation. 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: They should I blink twice. Yeah, yeah, blink let me 73 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: know you're good. But no, it actually say stand together, 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: film throughout a community four times on every podcast, so 75 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: you'll just float them in here. Yeah. I had to 76 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: say something because really it just sounded so much better 77 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: than my thing. Yeah, No, it's um. You know, I've 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: been working in this area for a while and I 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: learned so much going through this. You know, we're gonna 80 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: have our first guest, Johann Harri today, who wrote an 81 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: amazing book called Chasing the Scream. It's something that really 82 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: changed the way I thought about drug policy and addiction. Really, 83 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: Like Clint, I know, you know, you're you know, a 84 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: little bit older me. We kind of grew up in 85 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: the same time period at the very least. You know, Um, 86 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: it was all the DARE programs. It was all this 87 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: mentality that like, you could be the most straight laced 88 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: person that didn't touch anything, and then you had one 89 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: you know, aunt at the Devil's lettuce or smoke of 90 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: this and you're your tracks, You're crack it now, yeah exactly, 91 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: it's over. Yeah, and you learn that that's just completely wrong. 92 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: And we've just taken that at face value, and that's 93 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: been able to essentially vilify an entire subcategory of people, 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: which you know, we have just essentially said that that 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: is who those war is on. And because it's a vilification, 96 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: these people were able to do a lot of things 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: that generally citizens wouldn't be you know, yeah, they wouldn't 98 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: sposed to, they wouldn't tolerated. But now they're a drug person, um, 99 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: and that's a totally different subsect of our population. So 100 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: we can do things that you know, we wouldn't we 101 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't put up with So yeah, so we're gonna get 102 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: into it with Johann Harri and really the origins of 103 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: the drug war. Where did the drug war as we 104 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: know it now? Where did it begin? And Johan's gonna 105 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: take us through that. Yeah, Clayton, you um work you 106 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: know on a Marvel show, on Hawkeye with superheroes. Ordinance 107 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: stories are very important and it is important for the 108 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: villain too, exactly. Yeah, and we're gonna bring some villains 109 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: in here. Yeah, and also the creators of these villains 110 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: that have regret from these villains. And it's it's a 111 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: it's a wild story and a journey. I think that 112 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: we're going to take you with these ten episodes. Um, 113 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: it is epic. It is an actual epic. So I'm 114 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: really really looking forward to you all listening this particularly 115 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: first episode of Johan Harry. He's an amazing, amazing um 116 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: novelists and speaker and advocate on you know, any of 117 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: the prohibition on drugs. So yeah, take a listen. We're 118 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: really excited and uh, here we go, Johan. It's it's 119 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: amazing to have you today. Welcome to the War on Drugs. Hey, 120 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: Greg we're living it for too long. Yeah, I'm welcoming 121 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: you. You You should be welcoming us, all right. Yeah, I'm 122 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of a fanboy um on this. I've 123 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: read your book a couple of times now. I work 124 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: in drug policy, and it opened my mind up to 125 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: so much stuff. I felt like I was always just 126 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: like really focused on current policy, how do we make 127 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: things better? But I never took the time to understand 128 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: addiction and what it actually is. And I think you 129 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: really opened up a lot of my mind. Oh, cheers, Greg, 130 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. It was subject. It was very close to 131 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: my heart. One of my earliest memories is of trying 132 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: to wake up one of my relatives and not being 133 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: able to And obviously I didn't understand why then, But 134 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: as I got older, I realized we had a lot 135 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: of addiction in my family. So it's been really moving 136 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: that it's helped some other people with addiction problems, and 137 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: it's tried to kind of open up a bit more 138 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: of the discussion about what addiction actually is. Where I 139 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: realized that I had really actually misunderstood what I'd seen 140 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: happening in front of me for so much of my life. Yeah. Yeah, 141 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: and so is that where a lot of your interests 142 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: drew to write this book was just kind of you know, 143 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: your own personal history within your family to write this, 144 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: or there other trigger points where like I need to 145 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: get this message out there. I think like a lot 146 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: of people who've got someone they loved with an addiction problem. 147 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: When I started working on Chasing the Screen ten years ago, now, 148 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: I was a real mixture of very intense emotions. So 149 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: that was part of me that really loved the people 150 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: I knew with addiction problems and wanted to help them 151 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: and felt incredibly compassionate for them. There was another part 152 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: of me that was really angry with them. If I'm honest, 153 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: I was like, why don't you just stop? Why are 154 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: you doing this? And I was really oscillating between these 155 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: feelings and nothing I was doing was helping. And that's 156 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: really why I started the research for the book. I 157 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, what is actually happening here? What's going on? 158 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: Was a kind of wild ride to realize that so 159 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: many of the things that we think we know about 160 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: this are wrong. Drugs are not what we think they are. 161 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: Addiction is not what we think it is. The war 162 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: on drugs is not what we think it is. It's 163 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: a strange thing to have this subject we talk about 164 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: so much and to realize we're getting so much of 165 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: it wrong, and that when you understand what's really happening, 166 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: a whole different set of solutions begin to open up. Yeah, 167 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: something you said that I find interest in. You said 168 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: that you found yourself going between the emotions of anger 169 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: and feeling sympathy and compassion for the addicts. And I 170 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: think that's where most people who have to deal with 171 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: somebody going through addiction feel all the time, you know, 172 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: Like I know in my life, I'm like, wow, that's 173 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: I wish they could be all right. I wish they 174 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: could get off of it. I wish I could help them. 175 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: And then the other part is like they stole some 176 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: shit from me again, you know what I'm saying. So 177 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, is I think a lot of people 178 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: can relate to their feeling and the fact that it 179 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: set you out on this journey is hearing what you've 180 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: had to say is just enlightening about how we treat 181 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: people and where things should go from here. And I 182 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: think I think that's so moving the way you just 183 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: put that, Clayton, and I think we've got a level 184 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: with people that both those sets of feelings are legitimate, right, 185 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: the feelings of love and compassion, or legitimate the feelings 186 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: of anger and legitimate. But then we've got to figure out, Okay, 187 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: if we act on the compassion, what happens? And if 188 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: we act on the anger, what happens? And actually, obviously 189 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: I went to places that have built the most of 190 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: their approach to drugs and particularly addiction around anger, like 191 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: the United States, right, and evidence is clear when you're 192 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: spawn primarily with anger, when you've given, that's a natural 193 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: part of you. But if you let that dominate your response, 194 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: you screwed. The problem gets massively worse. But when you 195 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: build policies based around love and compassion in very practical ways, 196 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: and it's it's very clear what the outcome is. I've 197 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: been to the countries that did it. Countries that build 198 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: their policies based on love and compassion and restoring order 199 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: to this situation have huge diminishing addiction problems compared to 200 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: the countries that are based on rage and anger. Yeah, 201 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: but like rage and anger is what we do best. 202 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: We're Americans, Like, how are we going to get a rate? 203 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: We love getting missed? Half about. Yeah, yeah, that's our 204 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: number one export, John, What are we getting wrong about 205 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: addiction not only the United States but in so many 206 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: places around the world. We just saw statistics come out 207 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: last year one hundred and seven thousand people died of overdose. 208 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: If the whole point of the war on drugs is 209 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: to eradicate the harms of drugs, were failing miserably. And 210 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: so what are we missing about addiction that is so 211 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: critical and that's not carrying on in the policies that 212 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: we're carrying out any stages and abroad. Well, there's a 213 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: lot of things, but the one that most took me 214 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: aback is if you had asked me when I started 215 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: researching my book Chasing the Screen ten years ago, now, yo, Han, 216 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: what causes heroin addiction? I would have looked at you 217 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: like you're an idiot, and it would have said, well, Greg, 218 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: the clues in the name right, Obviously heroin causes heroin addiction. 219 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: We've been told this story for a hundred years. That's 220 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: become totally part of our common sense. It was certainly 221 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: part of mine. But what I learned is that story 222 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: is not totally wrong. Chemical hooks are definitely real, but Actually, 223 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: the evidence shows they are shockingly small part of the picture. Actually, 224 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: something much more important is going on, and I only 225 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: really began to understand it when I went to Vancouver 226 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: an interviewed incredible man named Professor Bruce Alexander, who did 227 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: an experiment in the nineteen seventies that's really begun to 228 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: transform how we think about addiction all over the world. 229 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: So Professor Alexander explained to me, this story we've all 230 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: got in our heads that addiction is caused primarily are 231 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: entirely by exposure to the chemical hooks comes from a 232 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: series of experiments that were done earlier in the twentieth century. 233 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: They're really simple experiments. Anyone listening. You can try these 234 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: experiments at home if you're feeling a little bit sadistic. 235 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: You take a rat, you put it in a cage, 236 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: and you give it two water bottles. One is just water, 237 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the other is water laced with either heroin or cocaine. 238 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: If you do that, the rat will almost always prefer 239 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: the drug water and almost always kill itself within a 240 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. It'll die by overdosing. Right, So that's 241 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: our story. You try the drug, you want more and 242 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: more of it until eventually you overdose. But in the seventies, 243 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: Professor Alexander came along and he said, well, hang on 244 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: a minute. You put these rats alone in an empty 245 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: cage where they've got nothing to do except use these drugs. 246 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: What would happen if we did this differently? So he 247 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: built a cage that he called rat Park, which is 248 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: basically heaven for rats. They've got loads of friends, they've 249 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: got loads of cheese, they've got loads of colored balls, 250 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: they can have loads of sex. Anything a rat can 251 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: want in life is there in rat Park. And they've 252 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: got both the water bottles, the normal water and the 253 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: drug water, and of course they try both. They don't 254 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: know what's in them. This is the fascinating thing in 255 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: rat Park. They don't like the drug water. They hardly 256 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: ever use it. None of them use it compulsively, none 257 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: of them overdose. So you go from almost one hundred 258 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: percent compulsive use and overdose when they do not have 259 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: the things that make life worth living for them, to 260 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: no compulsive use and overdose when they do have the 261 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: things that make life worth living. The thing I really 262 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: learned from this is, oh, so the opposite of addiction 263 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: is not sobriety valuable, though that is to many people. 264 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: The opposite of addiction is connection. The core of addiction 265 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: is about not wanting to be present in your life 266 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: because your life is too painful a place to be. 267 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: Once you understand that, you can see why what we 268 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: do in the United States is such a disaster. The 269 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: war on drugs is based on the theory, well, what 270 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: causes addiction is the drug, it's physical exposure to the drug. 271 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: So a we spend most of them trying to physically 272 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: eradicate the drug and insane fantasy. We can't even keep 273 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: drugs out of our prisons, and we pay people to 274 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: walk around the whole damn perimeter the whole time. Right. 275 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: But also it's premised on well, with people with addiction problems, 276 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: you need to punish them in order to give them 277 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: an incentive to stop. But once you understand that pain 278 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: is the fuel, pain is the cause, pain is the 279 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: driver of addiction, you can see why that's so crazy, right. 280 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: It's throwing more fuel to the fire exactly. Sometimes we say, oh, 281 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't work, Well, that's true, but that's way understating 282 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: how dumb what we're doing is. It's not that it 283 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work, is that it makes the problem worse. Right, 284 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: and everyone listening knows you have natural physical needs. Obviously 285 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: you need food, you need water, you need shelter, you 286 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: need clean air. But there's equally strong evidence that all 287 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: human beings have natural psychological needs. You need to feel 288 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: you belong. You need to feel your life has meaning 289 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: and purpose. You need to feel that people see you 290 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: and value you. You need to you've got a future 291 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: that makes sense. And this culture we've built is good 292 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: at lots of things. I'm glad to be alive today, 293 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: but we have been getting less and less good at 294 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: meeting these deep, underlying psychological needs from people. With you 295 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: just saying there too, you kind of answer something you 296 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: said earlier. That's why there's drugs in jail, you know, like, 297 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: and they constantly take away programs that would help people 298 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: get readjusted to society. So yeah, of course the drugs 299 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: are going to play a part. How else are you 300 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: going to deal with those circumstances. I think you're totally right, 301 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: And I always think Clayton, you know, the one thing 302 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: you can say in defense of the American War on 303 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: drugs is we gave it a good shot. We did 304 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: it for a hundred years. We see a trillion dollars 305 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: college we went to grad school trying to get this. 306 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: United States has imprisoned more people as a proportion its 307 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: population then any human society ever, including Chairman Mouse, China 308 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: and Stalin's Russia. Number one, but number one if the 309 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: unsex has destroyed whole neighboring countries or nearby countries like 310 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: Colombia and El Salvador. And at the end of all that, 311 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: you can't even keep drugs out of your prisons, right, 312 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: So it's hard to imagine that, you know that any 313 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: country could try the war on drugs more than the 314 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: United States has tried it. And at the end of 315 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: a hundred years of doing it, where are we. We've 316 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: got the worst drug debts in the world. We've got 317 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: catastrophic organized crime related violence caused by the war on drugs. 318 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: You know, at least ten thousand additional murders a year, 319 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: almost certainly far more as a result of the violence 320 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: caused by prohibition. We can talk about that like no 321 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: good outcome and lots of bad outcomes, catastrophically bad outcomes. 322 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: Something that you talked about a little bit like the 323 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: War on drugs has not been about drugs, because if 324 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: it was about drugs and stopping drugs, we would already 325 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: have better results or start what we're doing. But I 326 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: want to get to a little bit of the history 327 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: behind this because I think a lot of us, particularly 328 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: in America, we think about the War on drugs starting 329 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: with Richard Nixon and kind of you know, he declared 330 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: the War on drugs, that was the initial decoration. But 331 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: Harry Anslinger, I mean, he is, he's on the mount 332 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: Rushmore of drug policy, and where does he fit into 333 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: all this? Why is he on like your mount Rushmore 334 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: of you know? The drug war? Interesting at the start, 335 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: before I had done the research for the book, if 336 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: you'd asked me why did the War on drugs begin? 337 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: I would have guessed it was for the reasons that 338 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: if you stop someone in the street today and said 339 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: why is there a war on drugs? Most people would go, well, 340 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: you don't want kids to use drugs, you don't want 341 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: people to be condicted. That barely comes up, right. Yeah. 342 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: The reason drugs are banned is because there was a fear, 343 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: a hysterical racist fear that black people and Chinese Americans 344 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: and Mexican Americans were using drugs and in invert commas 345 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: forgetting their place and attacking white people. I mean, it 346 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: really is stated that explicitly in the Senate, one person 347 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: says the cocaine N word sure is hard to kill. 348 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: That's the level of the debate at the time that 349 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: drugs are being banned. So the Federal Bureau of Narcotics 350 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: was run by men called Harry Anslinger. Harry Anslinger is 351 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: probably the most influential person who no one's ever heard of, right, 352 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: hardly anyone's ever heard of. He's the man who invented 353 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: the modern war on drugs. So Harry Anslinger is a 354 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: government bureaucrat who takes over the Department of Prohibition just 355 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: as alcohol prohibition is ending. So the United States had 356 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: a war on alcohol and alcohol one right says, department's 357 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: about to be shut down, and he effectively invents the 358 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: modern drug war to give his department a renewed rationale. 359 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: Now he sincerely believed what he was saying. It wasn't 360 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: a kind of false invention. So this occurs, and Harry's 361 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: looking for a way to kind of gin up support, 362 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: funding strength for this organization that doesn't have a lot 363 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: of purpose at this point after prohibition ends. But marijuana 364 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: was this foreign drug that was kind of attached to 365 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: different races like Black Americans, Mexican Americans, and he was 366 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: kind of like, all right, there swear I'm going for 367 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: and if you can talk about that, and how that 368 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: was used to show that like marijuana was the next 369 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: bad thing and we need to be expanded and forced. 370 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: This was zero tolerance and cracked out. So cannabis was legal, 371 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: right and right after ansling a text, how Federer narcotics, 372 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, he wants his department to be a big 373 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: department and there's not much you can you know, heroine 374 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: and cocaine were very very minor tastes in the United 375 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: States at that time. Very few people use them. Of course, 376 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: cannabis was more popular. It was still much smaller than 377 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: it was you know, before the war drugs begins, but 378 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 1: it was, but it was it was, you know, they 379 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: were more popular. And really with the help of Hearst newspapers, 380 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: which was kind of like the Fox News of the day, 381 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: he promotes a series of very extreme scare stories about cannabis. 382 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: So in Florida and Tampa, a twenty one year old 383 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: boy named Victor le Carta hacked his family to death 384 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: with an axe. All of his family and Anslinger's latches 385 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: onto the idea are, this is what cannabis does to people. 386 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: If you smoke cannabis, you'll hack people to death with 387 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: an axe. It sounds like I'm comically exaggerating. This is 388 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: literally what they said. So this becomes this huge story. 389 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: Years later, someone goes back and studies the psychiatric notes. 390 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: Bit taller. Carter didn't even smoke cannabis, right, His family 391 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 1: had been worn that he was very seriously mentally ill 392 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: for a long time. Obviously, we know almost everyone listening 393 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: will have smoke cannabis at some point, and it's very 394 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: unlikely any of them had their family to death with 395 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: an ax. Yeah, they might have gotten a little fair exactly. 396 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: That's about it. Yeah, say, there can be some harmful 397 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: effects associated with cannabis. To be sure, I'm gonna tell you, 398 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: froze hand. It's hard to swing at X if you smoke. 399 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't care what you're chapping. Yeah, very good point, 400 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 1: Very good point. So, yeah, Antley, it feeds and creates 401 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: this kind of hysterical literally, a hysteria about drugs, and 402 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: it's not a coincidence he chose the Latino young man, 403 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: and it's not a coincidence. What's it to be referred 404 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: to as marijuana a Spanish word, not cannabis, So it 405 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: actively promotes that. So with every drug he tried to 406 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: associate it with a different ethnic group. So he said 407 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: that heroin had been brought in by the Chinese by 408 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: the fifties. He says, it's actively been put in by 409 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: the communist Chinese government to weaken the United States for 410 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: an invasion. This is how fucking crazy this guy was. 411 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: With cocaine, he said it was saying that that African 412 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: Americans were smuggling in and with cannabis, said it was 413 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: something that's being brought in by Mexicans. So it's all 414 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: part of this kind of racist asia. And whenever there 415 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: was evident and of course this is all bullshit, white 416 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: people use drugs just as much as anyone else, and whatever, 417 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: and whenever and whenever that was well, whenever that was revealed, 418 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: he would always present it as, oh, yes, they've been 419 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: given it by these other racial groups to prepare them 420 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: for what he described as the ultimate nightmare, which was 421 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: race mixing and particularly mixed race children, which he described 422 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: as the ultimate tragedy. So you can see how I mean, 423 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: it's hard to understate how racist Harry Anstie was. He 424 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: was so racist that his own senator in the nineteen 425 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: twenties said he should have to resign for being too racist. 426 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: That's quite hard, right, Like that was it was not 427 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: a progressive time, right, So he was really a very 428 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: extreme racist. And we've lost the racists, you know, you've 429 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: really gone too far right, Yeah, in the twenties. Yeah, 430 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: I think what you just said makes so much sense, 431 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: especially for me being a black person here in America. 432 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: Like you've just proven what I've always known without knowing 433 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: that the whole war on drugs comes from racism. It 434 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: comes from the mind of a racist, and that's how 435 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: it's set upon communities. Like I think about people always 436 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: talk about how black people always blame the man, the 437 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: man's keeping you down. Like this is the man, like 438 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: we actually had, Like we found him. We never knew 439 00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: who it was. It's him, It's Harry. We'll be right 440 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: back with the war on drugs. Hi. I'm Jason Flom, 441 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to 442 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction the War on Drugs and many 443 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners, to 444 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: take part in the survey. Your feedback is going to 445 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: help inform how we make podcasts in the future. You're 446 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: complete and candidate answers will help us continue to bring 447 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics that 448 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: impact us all. So please go to Lava for Good 449 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you for 450 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: your support. The War on Drugs podcast is sponsored by 451 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners 452 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,959 Speaker 1: with America's boldest change makers to tackle the root causes 453 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: of our country's biggest problems. Christina Dent is one of 454 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to end the War 455 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: on drugs, the root cause of so many problems and 456 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: communities across the country. As a foster mom, she came 457 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: into contact with the War on Drugs when she saw 458 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: how it was ripping apart the family she worked with. 459 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: She witnessed how kids were affected and her mothers wanted 460 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: something better for their families but didn't have the tools 461 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: to get there themselves. Christina Dent started a nonprofit called 462 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: Ended for good because she knew there was a better 463 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: solution to help these families. She's working to end the 464 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: war on drugs in Mississippi and build consensus around the 465 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: state to help families struggling with substance abuse problems find 466 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: a different path forward than the one they've been given. 467 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 1: Stand Together has many more stories like this one, as 468 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: it partners with thousands of changemakers who were driving solutions 469 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: and education, healthcare, poverty, and the criminal justice system to 470 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: learn more about Stand Together. Their partners or how you 471 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: can partner was stand Together Go to Stand Together dot org. 472 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: I always thinking about Harry's story with this very different moment. 473 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty nine, in a hotel in Midtown Manhattan, 474 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: Billy Holliday, the great jazz singer, walked onto a stage 475 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 1: and she sang the song Strange Fruit, which was an 476 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: incredibly radical song. It remains a radical song. What was 477 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: incredibly radical then. I'm sure most people listening know it, 478 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: but people who don't know. It's a song about the 479 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: idea that in the South there's a strange fruit that 480 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: hangs from the trees, and as the song goes on, 481 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: you realize these are the bodies of black men who've 482 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: been murdered by white mobs. And not long after that, 483 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: Billy received or warning from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics 484 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: the FBM, and they effectively told her stop singing this song. 485 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: And to Harry Annslinger, Billy Holliday is everything he hates. Right, 486 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: She's a black woman standing up to white supremacy in 487 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: a very brave and bold way. And Billy they had 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: a heroin addiction. So when Billy Holiday gets this warning, 489 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: it's telling her you stop singing this song. In effect, 490 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 1: she says, basically, fuck you. I'm an American citizen. I'll 491 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: sing what I Dann will please. And that's the point 492 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: of which Harry Anslinger resolves to destroy her. So he 493 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: hated employing black agents. But you couldn't really send a 494 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: white guy into Harlem to follow Billy Holliday everywhere. It 495 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: kind of obvious. So they had this agent called Jimmy Fletcher, 496 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: who was told followed Billy Holiday everywhere gather information about 497 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: her drug use. If that gather information about all the 498 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,239 Speaker 1: jazz musicians drug use, we're going to bust them all. 499 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: So Jimmy Fletcher spent eighteen months following Billy everywhere, getting 500 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: to know her undercover, so they busted her. She was 501 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: put in prison for eighteen months. She didn't sing a 502 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: word in prison, but when she got out, that was 503 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: when they did the cruelest thing. At that time. To 504 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: perform in most places in the country where alcohol was served, 505 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: you needed something called a cabaret performers license. Anslinger. Make 506 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: sure Billy Holiday is not given a beret performer's license. 507 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: Her friend Yolanda Bavan said to me, what is the 508 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: cruelest thing you can do, is to take away the 509 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: thing someone loves. Imagine taking away singing from Billy Holiday 510 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: despite the way, is what we do all over the 511 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: country today. Right people have an addiction problem, we don't 512 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: help them reconnect. We put barriers between the exactly makes 513 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: sometimes but you can't touch your kid or yeah, exactly, 514 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: we limit your connections exactly as possible. That the most 515 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: counterproductive thing we could do in that situation. Entirely predictably, 516 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Billy Holiday relapsed and one day in Midtown, only a 517 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: few blocks from I should first sun strange fruit, she 518 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: collapsed and she was taken to a hospital and the 519 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: first hospital wouldn't take a cashed addiction problem. The second 520 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: hospital took her and on the way in Billy said 521 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: to her best friend MALEI dufty, they're going to kill 522 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: me in there. Don't let them. They're going to kill me. 523 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: She believed that Anslinger's men weren't finished with her, and 524 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: she wasn't wrong. So in hospital she was diagnosed with 525 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: a vans liver cancer. Anslinger's men came and they arrested 526 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: her on her hospital bed. Knowing her diagnosis, they handcuffed 527 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: her to the bed. In hospital obviously didn't give her 528 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: any heroine, and she went into withdrawal, which can be 529 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: quite dangerous if you're as sick as she was with cancer. 530 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: So Maylie, her friend, managed to insist the doctors gave 531 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: her METHODONEA and then she began to recover a bit. 532 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: And ten days later she was cut off and the 533 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: methodone and the next day she died and Harry Anslinger gloated. 534 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: When she died, he wrote, there'll be no more good 535 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: morning heartache for her. And I think a lot about 536 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: this story because the fight between Harry Anslinger and Billy 537 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: Holiday isn't over right. All over the world, every day 538 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: people listen to Billy Holiday and it makes them stronger, 539 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: and it makes them better, and every day all over 540 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: the world we listened to Harryett with a few exceptions, 541 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: we listened to Harry Ansling at and we follow the 542 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: war on drugs that he created, and it makes people 543 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: weaker and it breaks people more, and at some point 544 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: we have to side with Billy. But the other thing 545 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: that that story really helped me to think about, it 546 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: goes right back to where we started. It helps me 547 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: to think about people I love. You've got addiction problems. 548 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: You know, in our culture, we tell one heroic story 549 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: about people with addiction problems, which is sometimes they recover 550 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: from their addiction, and that is indeed a heroic story, 551 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: and everyone listening is in that position should be really 552 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: proud of themselves. But Billy Holliday never stopped having an 553 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: addiction problem. She was addicted till the day she died. 554 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: She was still a hero, right, staggering courage and bravery. 555 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: But you just think about how many people like Billy 556 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: Holliday have there been since then? You know, we're talking 557 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: about happened in the nineteen fifties, right, how many people 558 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: since then have died needlessly because of this catastrophic war, 559 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: and how many people have just had shit lives when 560 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: they could have been helped and turned their lives around. Right, 561 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: At some point we have to st following Harry Anslinger, Yeah, absolutely, 562 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm optimistic that if we fight, we can tear this 563 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: thing down and we can replace it with policies that 564 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: actually work. And in some ways goes right back to 565 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: the very first thing you said, Greg, one hundred thousand 566 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: people died of overdoses. That is an unbearable tragedy and 567 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: we'll never get those people who have unique lives back. 568 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: But the one good thing that can come from that 569 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: is all the fire alarms are going off. Right, It's 570 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: very hard for people to say, you know, what we're 571 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: doing right now just works. Fine, Let's just carry on 572 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: with what we're doing. Right. I think we're good here. Right. 573 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: No one's saying that. They're not saying that in the 574 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: most conservative parts of the country. They're not saying that 575 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: in the most liberal parts of the country. No one 576 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: says that. Right. People can see what we've done hasn't worked. 577 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: They're ready to be persuaded of the alternatives, and it 578 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: is a job to persuade them, and we've got to 579 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: do it through stories and evidence and love. But I 580 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: absolutely believe we can win this one. Johan, this was incredible. 581 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: I urge everyone to rechasing the Scream. I think it's 582 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: gonna open your eyes. There's so many little tidbits and 583 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: notes in there, and like these aha moments all throughout 584 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: it where you're just like I'd never thought about it 585 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: that way, or it was completely shocking, or you know, 586 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: it's just amazing. It'll change your whole perspective on this. 587 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: So thank you so much, um, you know, for your 588 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: time and you know, hopefully we get to talk to 589 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: you again soon. Yeah, thank you, Thank you both. I 590 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: really enjoyed coming on the show. Thanks Clayton. Thanks right. 591 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: We got a couple of bills to pay, but we'll 592 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: be right back. Money money, money, wow. Um. Thanks again 593 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: to Johan for for coming on and giving us so 594 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: much of his time. That was you know they say 595 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: don't meet your heroes, um, but no, it was. It 596 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: was amazing. No, he did not. He's like the most 597 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: likable guy in the World's got that British accent rolling yeah, man, 598 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: like a more likable James Cord. Yeah. Yeah, he's one 599 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: of those guys where like anything you say that has 600 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,719 Speaker 1: even like a bit of here like he's just dying laughing. 601 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: You're like, no, maybe, hey, can you get this whole 602 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 1: stand up there and trying to get out there? Let 603 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: me know it was just Johan and then just a 604 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: bunch of other people I get to pay. Yeah, maybe 605 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: we can get a good show going here. But yeah, 606 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean you can kind of see why we picked 607 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: that as the first interview, first episode. It needed to be, 608 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: and it just confirmed everything that I ever thought. It 609 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: is racist and most of this stuff is not based 610 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: on any type of facts. Yeah, our producer Michael pulled 611 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of these articles, some things that we catched 612 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: on that we're coming out then and a slingers fingers 613 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: are all over it. And then you know William randolp 614 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: Hurst who in a bunch of newspapers and was able 615 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: to just kind of pump this out. And so when 616 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: you control the media, you know, you kind of controlled everything. 617 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: This is from Reader's Digest back in nineteen thirty eight 618 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: Marijuana Assassin of Youth by Harry Hann Slinger and Courtney 619 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: Riley Cooper. And some of these quotes is just crazy, 620 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: just like anecdotes of things that were going on that 621 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: we know that could not be true Chicago to marijuana 622 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: smoking boys, murder policeman use it as justification exactly why yeah, yeah, 623 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: And then there's this different from to day, Yeah exactly. 624 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean it was always drugs and it was just 625 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: used to who is the enemy right now? How can 626 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: we pin drugs on them? And how are they going 627 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: to damage the white community? And it happened over and 628 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: over again. It was marijuan, it was heroin, it's cocaine, 629 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: it's it's everything else. Just looking at these you could 630 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: just see that criminalizing race, you know, ethnicity, and then 631 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: you know poverty goes hand in hand with that. Yeah, 632 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: it's just drugs worthy mechanism by which you were able 633 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: to keep people down as second class citizens. Whoever was 634 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: the enemy of the day. You see it over and 635 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: over again. Nixon during you know, he didn't like he 636 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: didn't like the black panthers, he didn't like hippies. And 637 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: now they're a bunch of LSD heroin toating folks that 638 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: are gonna, you know, take over the country. And you 639 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: know they're not pushing back because I think drugs are 640 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: bad and this is what's going to help. It allows 641 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: for control. If you legalize marijuana, now you can't use 642 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: like I smell marijuana. Now I get to search to 643 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: the bar that goes away, right, Yeah you know that. 644 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's that's the main go to how 645 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: did you smell marijuana? I was going the opposite direction 646 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: with both windows up right, But okay, cool? Yeah. I 647 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: love the police officers that are their own drug dog. 648 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: You sniffed it out yourself, like they didn't even give 649 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: you a dog. You just okay mcgruth, good job man. Yeah, 650 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, I'm I'm hoping you know that 651 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: this is the jump off of more episodes to come, 652 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: and we, like we said, we want to show that 653 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: this does affect you even if you don't go through 654 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: the criminal justice them, even you don't use drugs. Yeah, 655 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: you break your ankle, you or a loved one gets cancer, 656 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: are you able to get it opiate prescription? You know, 657 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: We're going to get into a lot of that, and 658 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: so it's going to touch on every thing, and we 659 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: really just want to show that historical aspe picked up 660 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: at where it comes from and how this has been utilized. 661 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: It's not about drugs, it's about power control. And so 662 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to first one and we'll hopefully be 663 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: along for the right for the next few Yeah, yeah, yeah, 664 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: come back. Make sure you follow the War on Drugs 665 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: podcast so you don't miss any new episodes or any 666 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: of our Quick Fix bonus content, and we'll be back 667 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: next week with another episode of War on Drugs. Until then, 668 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Executive producers for War on Drugs 669 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: are Jason Flam and Kevin Wordis. Senior producer is Michael Epston. 670 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: Editing by Nick Massetti and Michael Epstein. Associate producer and 671 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: mix and mastering by Nick Massetti. Additional production by Jeff 672 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: Kleburn and Anna mcintee. Be sure to follow the show 673 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at Lava for Good. You 674 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: can follow Greg on Twitter at Greg Glaude and Clayton 675 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Clayton English. The War on Drugs is 676 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with 677 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number One. I'm your host, Clayton English, and 678 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: I'm Greg Gloude and thanks for listening to the War 679 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: on Drugs podcast.