WEBVTT - New Wall Construction and Borderlands Resistance 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.960 Also media. 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.600 Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me James 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.200 today and I'm very lucky to be joined again by 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.720 Eric Mesa, who's the Borderlands coordinator for the Sierra Club. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:15.200 Eric. 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:15.680 How are you doing. 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.400 I'm doing okay, James, Thanks for much for the invitation. 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.080 Yeah, thank you for joining us. Sadly we don't have 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:23.840 a lot of good stuff to talk about right now. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.640 It's a pretty difficult time in the borderlands. But maybe 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.000 we could start off with something that I've reported on 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.080 briefly in our weekly news show. The Border Patrol is 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:39.680 currently soliciting comment for its plans to build border wall 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.880 through the Outi Mountain Wilderness and other areas west of Takati. Right, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.800 could you explain a little bit about what they're proposing 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.400 and what the consequences of that will be. 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.879 Yeah, well, hi, everybody, so happy to be here and 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.240 not so happy to be sharing these news, but so 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.280 what the announcement was recently by the Border patron Role, 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.560 especially on the San Diego area, is the announcement of 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:09.640 the approximately nine point seven miles of new border barrier 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:14.760 system and on top of that, over fifty one miles 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.560 of what they call now system attributes, and this is 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:24.000 going to cabaccuge impact on the area. This is going 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.520 to be about two point nine miles west of the 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.280 the Cultil part of entry, going through an area that 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:36.920 it is very remote mountain region, and some of people 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.760 here in this are more familiar than I am. I've 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.160 actually never been, but I've been talking to some of 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.160 the local organizations, the do humanitarian eight in the region, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.520 and I know the Takaate Peak is in that area, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.320 and then you start going west into these beautiful mountains 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:59.559 that are also the birthplace of the Tijuana River. That's 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.440 exactly with the area where it's going to go. So 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.040 right now, CVPS accepting comments and asking people in the 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.040 community what kind of concerns do they have concerns in 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.400 regards of the environmental impacts of a project like this, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:19.200 what kind of social and economical impacts? So they open 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.760 up this section on their website with an email address 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:27.480 where people can share some of these concerns. As you mentioned, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.880 and part of an environmental organization, but we also have 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.000 all kinds of concerns for a project like this, including 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.800 the border barrier and the system attributes which are very 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.160 poorly described what they mean. Some of the things that 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:49.119 they mentioned as system attributes is the increase of lighting, infrastructure, 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:56.720 surveillance equipment, and new roads for access for border patrol vehicles. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.440 So one of the things that we're going to expect 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.200 that we have seen in other areas is more blasting 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.480 through the mountain, especially on areas where the mountains is 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.600 so uneven the terrain, there is a lot of heavy 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.239 machinery it has to come into those places to start 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.760 bulldozing to level the terrain so they can start building 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.120 this border wall. So we can expect some of that, 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.640 and with that come a lot of issues because there's 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.839 going to be the need to start drilling wells at 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.799 the border to extract the water from mixing the concrete 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.920 for the foundation. If there was any road out there, 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.520 they're going to probably widen the road two or three 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:43.440 times to allow this. Having machinery to access these remote areas. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.000 This is just going to be the beginning, just setting 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:52.680 up the panels. But whenever you go to these places 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.920 and start disturbing the native soil, you can expect all 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:02.200 kinds of consequences in regards of invasive species of plants. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:08.480 You can also expect so floating and removal of native vegetation. 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.480 In some cases, there is some species that are rare 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.160 on the area that having these impacts you know, can 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.239 be long lasting for them to be able to recover 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.240 if they're able to do so. The area on the 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.280 south side of the border there is also an area 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.680 where animals need to be moving back on course, so 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.920 species like the native meal deer a colony that lives there. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.680 There is a mountain lion and other species of mammals 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.800 and pretty much everything that is four inches wide that 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.040 it's not going to be able to make it through 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.160 that border. Well, so yeah, we're just raising these concerns 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.080 and sharing with the community so they're able to also 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.040 as well, and an email to CVP, Customs and Border 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.719 patrow and express these concerns and also to remember that 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.560 these areas have been sacred sized for the indigenous communities 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:07.520 in Diamond Memorial, so we might lose some very sacred 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.120 sides for the dribes forever. 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:12.920 Yeah, Like I know the topic Ta Kat Mountain has 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:17.560 been sacred to Kumii people. I believe it's Chuma in Kumii, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.520 but it's been sacred to them for as you say, 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.239 much longer than this has been the United States. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:23.000 That's correct. 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.400 You and I have both seen it in different places. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:25.600 Right. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:30.400 The damage that the border will does not just to people. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:35.080 I've seen mule deer running along it like trying. They're 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:36.920 clearly trying to find a way through, right, this is 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.560 their habitual pathway. There are some areas near, very very 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.120 near the border, like within one hundred yards of the border, 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.640 where there are naturally occurring creeks and little ponds which 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.600 will hold water at a time when water can be 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.719 very hard to come across here. And so I've seen 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.960 deer kind of distraught almost trying to get to this 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.360 place where they've obviously learned that they can get water, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.159 but now they can't. It's really heartbreaking on top of 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.600 all the other cruelty that it does. I suppose we 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.720 should address it, like I'm not sure how much we 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.760 can accomplish by the comment period, right, but it has 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.400 value nonetheless, like trying to do something I think has value. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.440 It shows that we didn't let this just happen. 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.960 Yeah, that's right. I honestly am not very hopeful from 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.000 these common periods because this is not the first time 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.479 they're asking the community to provide input and with past 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.960 experiences that we have organized in other areas, other segments 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.400 of the world, even in other states, we haven't got 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:41.159 a response even or an acknowledgment of these concerns. So 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.040 Dalva itself is really concerning. But I think it is 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.120 important that the communities around these areas are aware about 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:53.160 this and they get involved, and that there is this 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:58.840 community sentiment against this abuse of power that the administration 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.160 continues to do and borderlands and using them as the 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.840 sacrifice zone, as these testing grounds for what can potentially 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.280 continue to happen or expand, not only on the border 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.080 but in all our series, like we are seeing with 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.000 the span of militarization nowadays. 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.760 Yeah, definitely, like all the stuff that is really bad 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.640 in America right now, like it started at the border. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:23.240 That's right. 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.880 People are seeing it in their communities now, but like 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.480 we've been seeing it where we live for a long time. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.080 Can we talk a little bit about there's been some 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.360 other construction right then, with San Diego is not the 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.400 only place right now that there's a significant budgetary allocation 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.320 to construction a border barrier, and there's more construction east 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:43.720 of San Diego. 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.840 Right, Yeah, that's that's right. Most of the construction that 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.800 is happening right now. It was with all funding there 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:56.400 was from the twenty twenty one funds that were available 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.560 think the first Rump administration, So we were hoping that 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.160 that was going to be like the end of the funding. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:09.920 But since the proposal and passing of the quote beautiful bill, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.080 we've got to remind ourselves that now the administration has 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:21.680 allocated forty six point five billion dollars for border security, 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:28.160 and that includes border barriers and system attributes, so pretty 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.320 much anything related to border security right now they have 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.560 the funding to do it. They pretty much have the 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.680 funding to put a double wall across the whole US 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.480 Mexico border. Yeah, so that's that's huge. You know, in 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.120 recent days, we got a new wave of contracts that 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.960 were awarded. In October ten, we got this announcement that 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.960 out of this funding, the forty six point five billion, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.280 they are located for a little bit over four billion, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.360 and this will fund them two hundred and thirty miles 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:06.080 of new physical barriers and four hundred miles of surveillance 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:11.880 technology across the US Mexico border from California New Texas. 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.800 That's and they put up a new section on their 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.679 website where there is a map you can navigate. It's 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.080 an interactive map that shows every single section of the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.040 border and what they're planning to do with it. And 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.560 as surreal as it sounds, they are planning to double 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.240 up the wall. So in some places, in remote areas 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:40.000 in the desert, like in organ Pipe National Monument or 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:45.720 Cavesaprieta in Arizona and those areas, there is plans to 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.679 build a secondary wall. So on top of the thirty 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.680 food barrier that they have, they're planning to do a 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:53.720 second one. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.520 Yeah, we have that in Sanni Sedil, Right, we have 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:57.880 a double thirty foot barrier. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:58.240 Yeah. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:03.400 The Pipe administration used it to corral people seeking asylum. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.840 Right that they kept them in between the two walls 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.960 and then denied that they were in detention. I don't 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.120 know if we'll see that again, but like I guess 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.240 just from my own experience, you know, participating in mutilid 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.080 along the border, like those remote desert areas are where 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.680 people go when we build wall in Otai, right, when 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.520 we continue to detain and turn people back in less 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.320 remote areas, they will take the risk of going to 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.880 a more remote area and forcing people into those remote 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:36.040 areas and then constructing barriers there too. It's just going 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.880 to cause more deaths. It's not going to stop people 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.640 trying to come because there are things that they are 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.240 leaving which are terrible, but it will mean that they 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.640 get stuck out there in the heat without water for longer. 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.560 Right, that's correct, James, So exactly what you said people 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.520 in San Diego, like the border in Otai, you don't 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.720 really have the double wall, so you know, like having 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.880 these hypermarketinglit area and how that is going to expand 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.960 and the consequences of that is, as you mentioned, you 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:10.920 push people out further more remote areas, and two things 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.280 happen by doing that. First and most important, more people die. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.960 But also remember that these areas, like these remote areas, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.440 were also like semi pristine wildlife environments that you never 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.280 had humans moving through before. Now, as people have been 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.920 pushed to these remote areas, you have this human traffic 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.920 and not only migrants moving through, but you also have 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.800 the border patrol chase and these migrants, and now you 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.560 have border patrol wanting to build new roads to these 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:45.199 wilderness areas, and all of these just gives building up 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.120 into what's already a very fragmented landscape. So by adding 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.960 all these quote unquote system attributes, because you're pushing and 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.320 pushing people further and building these double walls, it's just 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:06.960 going and the laws of the remaining wildlife remote migration 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.679 corridors as well. So the impacts that this is going 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:11.640 to have are huge. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.000 Yeah, yeah, for like all living creatures. As you said, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.000 let's take a break, Eric, we'll come back and talk 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:32.040 about it some more. All right, we are back. Let's 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.679 talk about like how people are organizing right like at 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.439 this time when it does seem really bleak at the borderlands, 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.760 Like the Trump administration didn't really construct very much war 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.400 in its first iteration. It did construct a bit, but 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.200 not as much as it wanted to. And you and 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.880 I are both very familiar with the consequences that has had, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.080 right like, it has caused more people to die. The 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.640 Biden administration continued constructing and quote unquote repairing border back areas. 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.320 They also pioneered outdoor attention, and like, it just seems 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.120 like things with whoever gets elected, but more rapidly and 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:12.959 Republicans get worse. What are people able to do? When 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:14.600 we've talked about this a lot on this show, but 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.440 I'd love to hear your perspective too. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.559 It's been hard, honestly as a person working on environmental 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:27.680 issues in the border because definitely, like the loses are 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.000 much more than the wind sometimes, so that can be 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:35.600 dishard paying. Yeah, but there has been some glimpses of hope. 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.120 I think one of the things that we did here 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.080 in Arizona that was definitely felt really good and gave 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.800 us some hope is when the governor of Arizona decided 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:52.640 to put some chipping containers and make its own makeshift war. Yeah. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.240 So a bunch of people really came together on the 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.760 community outrage because this was just some really dumb idea 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.480 and one of the most remote, beautiful areas where there 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.400 is not even people moving through and then it's just 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.200 going to destroy the environment. And the governor went out 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:16.199 there and spent two hundred million dollars of taxpayers money 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:21.000 to buy these shipping containers and build this border wall. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.360 So we were actually all the community came together. We 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.160 showed up out there in desert and stop the machines 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.560 and we said no, you're not going to move any further. 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.320 And because what they were doing was actually illegal, we 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.240 were able to get away with it, and those shipping 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:45.400 containers are gone right now. Still Arizona taxpayer paid two 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.840 hundred million dollars to destroy their own environment. Just let 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.320 that thinking we can be using that money for much 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:58.840 better things. So I think that president and that movement, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:04.479 that sense of community that was built after that resistance, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.440 it has continued after that, Like there is a lot 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:15.320 of self organized grassroots efforts going on for border resistance, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:21.120 you know, and that encompasses humanitarian groups, environmental groups, and 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:26.640 we are also organizing nowadays here in Arizona to do 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.960 some direct action and try to show up to the 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.160 Central pel Valley which is where the border construction is going. 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.160 And it started raising some national attention to this issue, 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.560 trying to invite our politicians, start invited our native communities 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:49.280 to speak out and using different metals such as art performance, 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:54.120 bring up some different strategies together. You know, now with 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.320 the technology that we have availables, like how can we 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.600 make these more mainstream and tell people across the nation 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.360 what's going on and built remote areas. You know a 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.480 lot of people a lot of connection to this valley 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.680 and this is the heavy waters of the Santa Cluz 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:18.080 river lifeblood of many communities across the southern Arizona. And 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.320 at the same time, on the other side of the coin, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.880 you know, there is all this oppression by the government 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.680 to anything that is against their will, so a lot 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.800 of people feel a little bit afraid of showing up 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:36.520 to direct action. Yeah, so it is it's just walking 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.760 that fine line of how what can we get away 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.640 with and still be able to make a bold statement 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:48.200 and show opposition without putting people in danger. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:50.960 Yeah. Yeah, I think there is something a lot of 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.120 people are really worried about. But it is important within 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.640 the realm of things that we can do to show 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.640 our opposition to this and to stand in solidarity with 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:05.359 the animals and the indigenous people whose sacred spaces are 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.320 being defiled right and with migrants whose lives are being 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.800 put in danger by this. I wonder, like, I find 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.199 it so strange. I guess that like we're at a 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.960 time when reporting on migration is becoming like like a 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.560 major growth industry. I guess, editors who I could not 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.040 get to respond to an email or pick up the 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.639 phone for the last four years and now commissioning pieces 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.120 on migration, but there still seems to be like a 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:36.760 blind spot about the border in the American news media. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:39.120 I don't know why that is. I don't know if 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.159 you have ideas about why there is. But the Borderlands 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.800 are such a special place for me anyway, you know, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.840 I've spent nearly twenty years of my life here. Some 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.240 of my favorite places in the world are near the border. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.960 I think people think of the border as like Sentaisgital, 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.000 but it contains some wonderfully remote and special places. And 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.480 I wonder if you have thoughts on why, Like, the 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.000 border isn't something that gets talked about that much on 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:04.879 a national level. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:12.480 I think it does talk about, but unfortunately the narrative 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:17.440 that is usually built around it is really negative. Yeah, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.880 that's fair, and of course that's with that intention, right, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.480 you know, continue to build up this militarized state or 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.919 sacrifice zone. And so whenever I talk with people that 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.679 is here for the first time, you know, I do 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.720 these group presentations for delegations that come from all over 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:41.320 the country to experience the Borderlands region, and they're like, 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.600 they have all these perspective, you know, for what they 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.960 hear on the news about how horrible this is, and 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.800 then they come here and they're like wow, people here 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.240 is like really nice and we have a great experience, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:01.040 and I really inspire and it's like coming with these 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:07.760 prefabricated narrative on their minds of this wasteland sacrifice one, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:12.000 you know, and then going out after experience and yes, 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.280 some of that of course, if you go out to 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.840 the to the border and experience the wall and the 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.920 rolls and rolls of concerts in a wired and make 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.840 it look like you're in a war zone. Yeah, the 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.720 plows what you already have in your mind, you know, 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.320 just keeps building up the intensity. And then you hear 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.920 the stories from people, the struggle from migrants and stories 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.399 from back in twenty twenty three when we have the 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.879 search of migrants coming and all these things, you know, 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.960 but at the end people leaves with glimps also like wow, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.840 this place is really beautiful and a lot of wonderful 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.280 things are happening, a lot of movements of people trying 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.600 to organize and make it a bit better place and 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.760 trying really hard to shift this narrative. You know. The 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.399 Bordlands provide us a good opportunity, you know, because what 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.000 we see today, like a friend of mine said, you 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.080 can get worse, and it's going into that direction. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.080 it's going into that direction. But at the same time, 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.560 it gives us an opportunity as a society, you know, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.040 because whatever happens at the border is definitely going to 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.600 have a ripple effect in the rest of the country. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.320 So we are able to figure out a way to 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:39.440 shift that narrative and look at the border like people 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.919 that lives and experience the borderer and the culture of 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.080 the beautiful things that the border has to offer. Then 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.640 we hope that that's going to help change a lot 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.040 of the things that are happening in this country, you know, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.280 but we need to start I think organizing from the 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.199 bottom up. Yeah, a lot of grass exfore need to 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.000 be happening, and I think a lot of media and 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.960 needs to cover this. You know, we usually don't cover 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.320 the good stories, so yeah, yeah, you're right. 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.520 Like it's funny that the Right does cover the body 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:11.359 or right or the the you know, the Fox News 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.760 kind of Cardra does cover the border. Like I don't 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.399 like the way they cover it. But like the only 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:21.359 national network guy I will see down there is the 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:35.080 Fox guy. For the most part, I don't one thing 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.639 I like to do with my friends, or like if 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.720 someone comes to visit, you know, sometimes I have other 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.640 independent journalists come visit, to walk down to the border wall, 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.000 and it seems very bleak, right because there's this big 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.000 wall and it's covered in Constantina way, as you say, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.399 and maybe they're Marines or National Guard or Border patrol 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.159 or any other leg it's people with guns right in 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.919 different uniforms. But then if you turn around, you're in 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:02.280 this really special place where you don't see the people. 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.040 You just you can appreciate how beautiful it is. It's 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.360 also very beautiful that, like you say, there's so much 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:12.200 bottom up organizing, that there's so much people helping people 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.439 of all different kinds. And that's something we also are 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.680 in twenty twenty three, when Title forty two ended and 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:24.160 subsequently the Biden administration detained people outdoors, like we saw 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.800 an incredible community response of all different kinds of people 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.440 of different political persuasions, different faith groups, which was a 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.520 really beautiful thing. Like it's a thing that a lot 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.240 of the rest of America right now could learn from 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.560 the government was brutalizing people, and people made that less bad. 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:44.600 They kept them safe, and they'd been a lot more 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:46.959 people who didn't make it throughout all attention if it 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.320 wasn't for community support, Like I want people to see that. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:54.760 I wonder if people want to support, right, let's say 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.919 they're not in the border lands, can you think of 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.520 good ways for them to be in solidarity, for them 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.200 to even to experience like I know a lot of 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.800 people who listen to this have come, Like, it's really 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:10.199 wonderful for me to meet people when I'm not working, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:12.160 when I'm just out there in my capacity with someone 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.040 who cares about other people, right, doing water drops, doing 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.679 mutilate with migrants, or helping people at street release. To 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.800 hear people who listen to this and then decided to 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:23.800 come from wherever they were and spend some time here 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:26.800 and help, Like, that's a really a special thing. But 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.320 you have other ideas on how people can be in 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:31.280 solidarity and can come and help. 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:36.600 Yeah, definitely, I get this question very often from different 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.720 people that comes to bas here. Yeah. I usually recommend 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:42.720 people to start where they are, you know, in their 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:48.520 own communities, because there is recollection of the border issues 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:53.760 in your own community. There are people that are migrating 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:58.560 that are mind need some help. There are people that 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.119 show theres and all this, or just kind of like 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:07.240 get involved with your local whatever you're passionate about. You know, 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.520 it doesn't really have to be an environmental issue, but 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.440 we are, remember and social justice and environmental justice is 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:18.840 the same thing. Yeah, you know, we really like whatever 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.560 you're passionate about, just getting involved. But I think the 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:25.760 worst thing that we can do right now is just 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:28.840 doing are the fact that we are in a bad spot. 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:31.840 You know. I think a lot of people just want 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:37.159 to continue writing their comport song wave and it's that's 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:41.000 gonna end, you know. And I think we need to 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:44.160 not only think about ourselves, but we need to think 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:47.240 about the generations coming ahead of us. And I think 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.840 it's especially for the people that us already had the 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:55.400 opportunity to somehow live a life, you know, but there 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:58.480 are somes that are about to start the journey, and 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:01.960