Speaker 1: On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: my Sharona is playing Turn it Up and Let's dance. Caitlin,
Speaker 1: did you know that My Sharona is a song about
Speaker 1: an underage girl? I did not know that, like extremely underage,
Speaker 1: like thirteen. Yikes. Well, well, welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 1: That was my That's one of my favorite bubbles to burst.
Speaker 1: Not because but that was something I learned while I
Speaker 1: was making Lolita podcast, because I was just making a
Speaker 1: superlist of popular songs that are actually about exploiting young women.
Speaker 1: And My Sharona is I mean, look, if you want
Speaker 1: to pause the podcast and take a gander at the lyrics,
Speaker 1: be my guest, but it is, uh, it is a
Speaker 1: rough road. My my dad. That was one of my
Speaker 1: dad's favorite songs. And I was like, Dad, you gotta
Speaker 1: you gotta take a peep at these lyrics, and he
Speaker 1: was like, oh my, oh my. Now look this is
Speaker 1: just a sampling of one of the elements of culture
Speaker 1: that maybe don't age very well. Welcome to the Bexel Cast.
Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Lofts and my name is Caitlin Durante.
Speaker 1: And this is a podcast where basically we take media
Speaker 1: that you love and point out everything that's wrong with
Speaker 1: it from an intersectional feminist lens. I think that's a
Speaker 1: little harsh. We we take a look at it from
Speaker 1: an intersexual fevtist lens. We're not a part of the
Speaker 1: ruin everything culture. We take a look at things that
Speaker 1: just happens sometimes as a byproduct of what we do,
Speaker 1: because a lot of things kind of just ruined themselves.
Speaker 1: I guess so is that fair to say anyway? Um So,
Speaker 1: we used the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point
Speaker 1: to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course,
Speaker 1: is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel,
Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, originally conceived as a
Speaker 1: just kind of one off joke in a comic by
Speaker 1: Alison Becktel called Begs to Watch Out for Uh, and
Speaker 1: has since been kind of repurposed as this media metric.
Speaker 1: There are many versions of it, the one that we
Speaker 1: use requires that two people of a marginalized gender who
Speaker 1: have names must speak to each other, and their conversation
Speaker 1: has to be about something other than a man, and
Speaker 1: ideally it's a narratively meaningful conversation. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And today we have a long time request with a
Speaker 1: much beloved guest, so let's get to it. We're covering
Speaker 1: reality bites directed by one bend Still are written by
Speaker 1: one Helen child Dress Childress. Don't know, sure, don't know,
Speaker 1: and we'll never know. And that's on in hernalized misogynt
Speaker 1: we know how to pronounce Ben Stiller's name makes you think, okay,
Speaker 1: uh so look at her wonderful returning guests in here. Indeed,
Speaker 1: she is the host of the podcast There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. She's the host of the new
Speaker 1: podcast Internet Hate Machine on cool Zone Media. Check it out.
Speaker 1: And do you remember her from our episode on Eve's
Speaker 1: by You. It's Bridget Todd. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Thank you for bringing us
Speaker 1: reality bites. I'm very excited, too excited. Did did to
Speaker 1: discuss us us us this movie? Um that you have
Speaker 1: brought us? I feel like This movie is very often
Speaker 1: held up as like this is the gen X movie, which,
Speaker 1: as many you know, and we can bitch all day
Speaker 1: about jen X and we will, but I will say
Speaker 1: it must suck as a generation to be told like
Speaker 1: this is you when you like it or not. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that millennials really have a movie that
Speaker 1: is like made like this is your defining thing. I
Speaker 1: think I would resent it on. I would just resent
Speaker 1: it automatically. So to our gen X listeners, whether you
Speaker 1: like this movie or or not, I think it's just
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the only generation I know of
Speaker 1: that is like, there's one movie about gen X and
Speaker 1: it involves one of the most toxic relationships I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Committed to film. Oh, brother, um that said, I'm excited
Speaker 1: to discuss this movie. There were elements of it I
Speaker 1: liked very much. So bridget to kick us off. What
Speaker 1: is your history with reality bites? Oh, I have a
Speaker 1: long history with this movie. That's why I suggested it.
Speaker 1: I loved it when I first saw it. I saw
Speaker 1: it as a young person, maybe I saw it in
Speaker 1: high school. I even had the soundtrack that I bought
Speaker 1: from the Salvation Army, which the soundtracks, slaps sound it
Speaker 1: really is. Yeah. I loved it, And I also think
Speaker 1: it was a movie that when I was young in
Speaker 1: the suburbs, I thought, when I'm an adult, this my
Speaker 1: life is gonna be like this. It's gonna be cool,
Speaker 1: creative young people hanging around in a group house, you know,
Speaker 1: smoking weed out of cans and quitting with each other.
Speaker 1: It really presented a life that I found aspirational at
Speaker 1: the time. And it's funny because watching it now, I'm like,
Speaker 1: thank God, that wasn't my eye. Yeah, not a great
Speaker 1: fate as it turns out. Jamie. What is your relationship
Speaker 1: in history with this movie? Um, I don't have much
Speaker 1: of history with it. I had never seen it before.
Speaker 1: It never really never came across my desk as a youth.
Speaker 1: I have worked with one of the producers of this
Speaker 1: movie before, Stacy Shure. She's really really awesome. So I'm
Speaker 1: coming in a little bit biased here because I just
Speaker 1: think that she's like championed so many movies that centerr
Speaker 1: women and queer stories, and like she She's done a
Speaker 1: lot of really really cool work. But I never actually
Speaker 1: like sat with this movie before and watched it, and
Speaker 1: honestly I was coming in thinking maybe I wouldn't like
Speaker 1: it very much at all. They're definitely like I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that this movie, like I didn't know much
Speaker 1: about the history. I didn't know it was like written
Speaker 1: by a young woman that is like very much pulling
Speaker 1: from her own experience, which I think is really cool
Speaker 1: and especially in would have been super rare. And then
Speaker 1: just like I don't know. I mean, my main issue
Speaker 1: with this movie, which I'm sure we'll be talking about,
Speaker 1: is it's like hyper focus on this shitty relationship that
Speaker 1: I mean, and amongst other things. But it felt like
Speaker 1: there were a lot of things that that this movie
Speaker 1: was commenting on that even when characters sucked, they sucked
Speaker 1: contextually in a way that felt like there's a lot
Speaker 1: of satire and a lot of commentary on like why
Speaker 1: people are making the choices they are, Like no characters
Speaker 1: goats completely uncriticized by the movie except for like this
Speaker 1: relationship that I just have Like oh um, But but
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk about it. I feel like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of it resonated more than I was
Speaker 1: expecting it too. For me, Caitlin, what is your history
Speaker 1: with reality bites? I Honestly, I am not sure if
Speaker 1: I had seen it before, because there were parts that
Speaker 1: were very familiar to me, the my Sharonas scene in particular.
Speaker 1: I that scene is really fun. It is. But what
Speaker 1: I remember even more than them dancing to that song
Speaker 1: was the line where they're like, Avian is naive spelled backwards.
Speaker 1: I don't know why Corny jed x line. Ever, why
Speaker 1: did I remember that so much? I'm not sure. I
Speaker 1: think there's a very real possibility that I had only
Speaker 1: ever seen that seen probably from that movie Trivia Game.
Speaker 1: Seen it, Oh my god, And that's just why I
Speaker 1: remember seeing it. That's the millennials true movie. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Oh you just a lot to memory for me of
Speaker 1: how much I love seen it and I haven't played
Speaker 1: it in years seen it kind of rules. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so much cultural osmosis. Um. Maybe that maybe I
Speaker 1: had seen that scene that way too. Also, this is
Speaker 1: like Janine Garofolo being I was like, that's the true
Speaker 1: harbinger of of a gen x um classic. Is like
Speaker 1: Jennine Garofolo in a supporting role. Yeah, we've done it.
Speaker 1: That's how you know. Um. But yeah, the rest of
Speaker 1: the movie wasn't super familiar to me, so I think
Speaker 1: I had actually seen the whole thing, and it was
Speaker 1: just that scene in the gas station that I saw
Speaker 1: and then thought I had seen the whole movie. I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure. So, yeah, not super familiar with this movie.
Speaker 1: But but there's a lot to talk about there is
Speaker 1: This is not the primary thing to talk about. But
Speaker 1: I didn't know Steve Zon was in this movie, and
Speaker 1: as a known Zon head, I was like, who, well, well,
Speaker 1: look who we have here, Stevenson. I love Stevenson so much.
Speaker 1: The fact that anyone would say in a movie that
Speaker 1: no one wants to have sex with Steve Zon, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to check your notes on that one.
Speaker 1: I do love Steve Zon. Do you remember when he
Speaker 1: played the cat Stewart a little? Of course. I remember
Speaker 1: when he played Stewart Little. Yeah. He played Nathan Lane's
Speaker 1: best friend and his only line was snow volume of
Speaker 1: best friend. God, he's so delightful. It's such a delight
Speaker 1: when he like, no one's ever sad to see Steve's on.
Speaker 1: He's what was your Is that your favorite Steve's on movie?
Speaker 1: Stewart Little Yes. I'm trying to think of where I
Speaker 1: first fell in love with steve 'son, it would have
Speaker 1: been I remember this is I don't think where I
Speaker 1: fell in love with him, But he was in a
Speaker 1: Christen Early Christen Stewart movie called Speak, which is about
Speaker 1: a very traumatic it's very traumatic, but Steve's On plays
Speaker 1: the nice teacher of a middle schooler who experiences pretty
Speaker 1: horrific abuse. And so Steve's On, You're like, oh, nice,
Speaker 1: Mr He's just always Mr Nice. He's always Mr Nice?
Speaker 1: Is Mr Nice? He cannot play a villain. Um, I've
Speaker 1: accept in White Lotos, where he definitely does. Oh that's
Speaker 1: I didn't finish that series. Um. I first saw him
Speaker 1: in the movie joy Ride. What's that? It's basically a
Speaker 1: remake of the movie Duel where a scary truck driver
Speaker 1: terrorizes Steve's On, Paul Walker and Lely Sobieski And it's
Speaker 1: pretty cool. What else is Stevenson is also and You've
Speaker 1: Got Mail? I think maybe that's the last time I
Speaker 1: got thrilled to see him on the show in a
Speaker 1: movie I had. The Whites did not like. It's funny.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at his IMDb reality bites. Was only that
Speaker 1: like the fourth movie he had ever been in he
Speaker 1: was in an episode of All My Children, a movie,
Speaker 1: a TV movie called First Love, Fatal Love, another movie
Speaker 1: called Rain Without Thunder, an episode of a show called
Speaker 1: South Beach, and then reality bites like that was his
Speaker 1: This was like early Steve's On. This was his break,
Speaker 1: this big break. I read that because the casting process,
Speaker 1: for I mean, the production of this movie is just
Speaker 1: like wild in general. But I read that Ethan Hawk
Speaker 1: had just like done a play with Steve's on and
Speaker 1: was like, he's cool for human and then Steve's on
Speaker 1: being Mr nice Um was really enthusiastic about playing a
Speaker 1: queer character who is like who comes out of the
Speaker 1: closet and is loved and accepted for it because he's
Speaker 1: Mr nice So the only movie I've ever seen him
Speaker 1: being not nice in is um a perfect getaway. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it, but it's got I
Speaker 1: think Mila Djovlovich maybe uh. And he's very much the villain,
Speaker 1: like not just like the villain like in White Lotus
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, he's rich and has a lot
Speaker 1: of privilege, A villain villain like a bad guys. Good
Speaker 1: for him. He's got range. I also remembering he's Mr
Speaker 1: Nice And I don't know if anyone else was a
Speaker 1: baby sitter and saw the Diary of a Wimpy Kid
Speaker 1: movie series, but he's he's Mr Dad in that one,
Speaker 1: and yeah, sure he makes some mistakes, but at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, he's Mr Nice. Well, shall we
Speaker 1: move on from Steve's on? The beginning of the ence
Speaker 1: is in this movie this is a feminist movie podcast,
Speaker 1: which you wouldn't have guessed from that conversation at Tirade
Speaker 1: about Steve's on about how he's nice. Yeah, let's recap
Speaker 1: the movie, shall we? Let's do it? Okay, So we
Speaker 1: open on Lelna. That's Winona writer. She's giving a speech
Speaker 1: at her college graduation, which effectively sets up the theme
Speaker 1: of the movie, which is like, Hey, there are all
Speaker 1: these problems in the world, but what do we do
Speaker 1: about them? I don't know that. I like how every
Speaker 1: generation will, especially now that like we're no longer the
Speaker 1: youngest generation and we're growing crustier with each passing day.
Speaker 1: I do think it's like funny how that this is
Speaker 1: the question of literally every generation. But everyone is like,
Speaker 1: but it was my idea. We're kind of the first
Speaker 1: people to have this problem and it's like, wow, Dan
Speaker 1: getting old is punishing. It was not our idea, and
Speaker 1: we are also fumbling it. So amazing. Yeah, Okay, So
Speaker 1: then we see video footage because Lelena is making a
Speaker 1: documentary about her friends. Her friends are Troy Dyer. That's
Speaker 1: Ethan hawk Hot mm hmmm. His character is despicable. His
Speaker 1: character is horrible. Yeah, Vicky, that's Janine Garoffalo and Sammy
Speaker 1: Steve's on of the Zones sence Hot. There's I just
Speaker 1: I'm going to be annoying today. Um there was. I
Speaker 1: was thinking of just like other very gen xy movies
Speaker 1: and things in general, and I was thinking about Rent,
Speaker 1: which I feel like also goes in this category very much.
Speaker 1: Also features I think, a visibly terrible documentary about someone's friends.
Speaker 1: It was a very niceties thing to do to think
Speaker 1: that you were. I mean, I guess it's like how
Speaker 1: millennials and gen z use social media to be like
Speaker 1: get ready with me, and it's like, God, everyone's so
Speaker 1: fucking boring and you all have the same instincts exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that to document our lives and make
Speaker 1: them public. I do think that Winona Writer's fake documentary
Speaker 1: in Reality Bites seems more interesting than Anthony Rapp's fake
Speaker 1: documentary in rent That's a professional opinion question. I mean
Speaker 1: his documentary is just videoing his I mean, Lena is
Speaker 1: like act them questions about like what's it like to
Speaker 1: be worried about AIDS? What's it like to do this?
Speaker 1: Like she's asking them their perspective the documentary. If I
Speaker 1: haven't seen Rented a long time, so excuse me if
Speaker 1: I'm misremembering, But if I recall correctly, he's just like
Speaker 1: got a camera in his friend's faces and they're just
Speaker 1: living their lives. Yeah, he's trying to do him more
Speaker 1: Like I'm just like, is who's getting releases for these things? Logistically?
Speaker 1: Like who's getting releases for this? Yeah? He was just
Speaker 1: bringing his camera to like like support groups in a
Speaker 1: way that you're like, this is illegal mark following this
Speaker 1: person's anonymity or whatever. Yeah, she's anyway, Here's They both
Speaker 1: probably would suck, But I think when known as this
Speaker 1: is more interesting and it seems like at least everyone
Speaker 1: is willingly participating. That's true time. Here's my hot and
Speaker 1: potentially terrible take, is that the TV network in your
Speaker 1: Face version of who are not think is like not
Speaker 1: that bad? Totally agree, I'm so I would that. I
Speaker 1: was going to totally say the same thing. I thank you, honestly,
Speaker 1: I truly so. I'm sure we'll get to this and
Speaker 1: I maybe I'm jumping the gun. But the scene when
Speaker 1: they show it, I was like, it just seems like
Speaker 1: the bumper or the teaser, like you don't even what
Speaker 1: was so bad about it they I truly don't get it, Okay,
Speaker 1: my As I was watching that, I was like, how
Speaker 1: different is this from the trailer to reality bites? It's
Speaker 1: pretty similar and very similar, but that's like I feel
Speaker 1: like that's kind of like one of the bizarro like.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know the word irony is used really
Speaker 1: heavily in this movie, but that's like kind of the
Speaker 1: weird irony of this movie is like a movie about
Speaker 1: selling out, but like you would have had to have
Speaker 1: sold out in order for it to be made. It's
Speaker 1: a studio movie, right. I don't know, Jamie, define irony.
Speaker 1: You can't. It's undefinable. Literally, I was as she was
Speaker 1: fumbling with that, I was like, oh, I would have
Speaker 1: I would not have been able to do that, would
Speaker 1: have sucked it up. I also think that what Ethan
Speaker 1: hawks characters definition is like also not quite the right
Speaker 1: definition of irony? Was this before or after the Atlantis
Speaker 1: Morrissette song This exchangees I was like, could no one
Speaker 1: in this generation correctly define that word? We don't know anyway. Okay,
Speaker 1: So Lene is making this documentary about her friends. We
Speaker 1: see footage of them talking. They're goofing around, they're speaking
Speaker 1: on their lives and their future plans, and they all
Speaker 1: seem kind of aimless and they they're not really sure
Speaker 1: what to do or how to proceed. Then we cut
Speaker 1: to Lelena having dinner with her parents. Her dad gives
Speaker 1: her a gas card, which he says he'll pay the
Speaker 1: bill on for a year. He also gives her his
Speaker 1: old BMW. There's some debate about whether or not she
Speaker 1: should take the BMW because she mentioned being more morally
Speaker 1: opposed to BMW's in her graduation speech, but ultimately she
Speaker 1: takes the car and loaded the privilege these kids have,
Speaker 1: um I know. Yeah. So then Lena we see her
Speaker 1: at her job as a I think production assistant on
Speaker 1: a morning talk show for Frasier's dad. Oh my god, right,
Speaker 1: second only the two times I gasped, No, three times
Speaker 1: I gasped. First Steve's on reveal, second, Fraser's dad revel,
Speaker 1: Third she chooses ethan Hawk reveal just just just. But
Speaker 1: Frasier's dad absolutely killing in this movie. And his character
Speaker 1: is a menal jerk he learned, just like in Frasier,
Speaker 1: except in Frasier it's complicated. I mean, he's he's like
Speaker 1: a softie that we love, but he does run for
Speaker 1: like an extreme like he doesn't even vote for like
Speaker 1: an extremist candidate, and might have some and not so
Speaker 1: great political positions. I would not because I think, isn't
Speaker 1: he like a former cop? Like you? You're like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to know how this guy votes, but I
Speaker 1: do love the just the character setup of I love
Speaker 1: my fancy sons, my fancy lad son, my I love
Speaker 1: my weird fancy sons. You're like, well, someone's gotta a
Speaker 1: little aside. I I only I watched Fraser for the
Speaker 1: first time in The Pandemic and my partner loves the show,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, isn't it about a gruff
Speaker 1: guy who has two sons who are British for some reason?
Speaker 1: And he was like, no, they're not British, They're just fancy.
Speaker 1: I always, for whatever reason, I did assume they were British.
Speaker 1: I would say that Kelsey Grammar and David Hyde Piers
Speaker 1: do sort of affect a like movie like Transatlantic accent
Speaker 1: for their roles. It's not they don't sound like they're
Speaker 1: from Seattle. They sound like Rose DeWitt Picater from Titanic. Yes,
Speaker 1: they sound they sound like they're from a place that
Speaker 1: never existed. But I mean, look, the Fraser reboot, goddamn
Speaker 1: if I'm not going to watch it. They shut down
Speaker 1: one of my favorite local bars to film, which is weird.
Speaker 1: That's a thing that's happening. A Fraser reboot. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know about this. There's going to be a
Speaker 1: Fraser reboot. And they shut down this bar near me
Speaker 1: called the Thirsty Crow, just like a fun but like
Speaker 1: grimy little bar. I was like, what is Fraser going
Speaker 1: to do there? Get killed? Like I don't know. Okay,
Speaker 1: So so we see Lena at her job. Then she
Speaker 1: gets into a minor car accident with this guy named
Speaker 1: Michael played by Ben Stiller, and they meet via this
Speaker 1: car accident and they kind of hit it off and
Speaker 1: he asks her for a date. Meanwhile, Troy slash Ethan
Speaker 1: Hawk has been fired from his newsstand job for eating
Speaker 1: a Snickers bar, so he has to move into Lelena
Speaker 1: and Vicki's apartment and he crashes on the couch for
Speaker 1: a while. We also learn more about the dynamic between
Speaker 1: Troy and Lelena, which is a bit contentious. It's a
Speaker 1: bit will they or won't they? The friends are hanging out,
Speaker 1: we see more documentary footage Lelena and Vicky and Sammy
Speaker 1: dance to my Sharona in the convenience store. Troy is like,
Speaker 1: I'm too cool to dance. You're like, shut up. I
Speaker 1: hate him. I can't stand Troy can't stand. He reminds
Speaker 1: I'm discovering that a lot of nineties ethan Hot characters
Speaker 1: are really deplorable. Because Before Sunrise is one of my
Speaker 1: favorite movies. But I went back and rewatched that recently.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, his character is awful
Speaker 1: in that movie. He gets a little more mature and
Speaker 1: Before Sunset, but I still haven't seen it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like there's I I'm it's it's so confusing. I
Speaker 1: wish I could was anyone able to find like because
Speaker 1: I read that this script was written like sevent dy times,
Speaker 1: so it sounds like there was like studio notes on
Speaker 1: notes on notes on notes. Um. So I'm just like
Speaker 1: because it seems like the final script goes all the
Speaker 1: way up to like, yeah, fuck this guy, but then
Speaker 1: at the last second it's like, nah, he's great, he's great,
Speaker 1: and you gotta marry him. And I was like, that
Speaker 1: has to be a studio notes. Like I cannot conceive
Speaker 1: of a world because it's like the movie goes all
Speaker 1: the like she does the she does the right thing,
Speaker 1: she bails. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, So then Lelena goes on
Speaker 1: her date with Michael Ak Ben Stiller. They make out,
Speaker 1: which Troy sees and he gets upset about this and
Speaker 1: he picks a fight with Lelena and she's like, if
Speaker 1: you have a problem, just say it, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I love you, and it seems like he's being sincere,
Speaker 1: but it turns out he's just being an asshole, even
Speaker 1: though it is clear that he is in love with her,
Speaker 1: but he won't admit it. Anoying Can I Can I
Speaker 1: ask a question there? Because that's something in rewatching this movie,
Speaker 1: I was sort of like, what is this? And I
Speaker 1: know people are complicated and I've certainly been there, what
Speaker 1: is the vibe of like being in love with each other?
Speaker 1: It's also in plan that they've hooked up drunkenly at
Speaker 1: least once in the past, at least once. Like why
Speaker 1: are they so against admitting it, talking about it, communicating
Speaker 1: about it? Like I understand that in in the in
Speaker 1: the universe of the film, it's supposed to be like
Speaker 1: they can't admit it, you know, they don't want to
Speaker 1: ruin the friendship. Why not, Like why it's communicating openly
Speaker 1: about how you feel such a villain in the universe
Speaker 1: of this film. I feel like my assumption was like
Speaker 1: they're twenty two and extremely emotionally immature, Like that was
Speaker 1: sort of mine. And like especially Troy, like I mean,
Speaker 1: we can we'll talk about Lena and all the ways
Speaker 1: where like she's very messy and a lot of regards,
Speaker 1: especially with her own privilege, and like she's just like
Speaker 1: bad at navigating it. But like Troy especially, I feel
Speaker 1: like he's like I don't know, like I'm trying. I
Speaker 1: was watching this movie, I was thinking, all this bad
Speaker 1: advice my mom has given me at different points in
Speaker 1: my life, but where she's like, well, sometimes like people
Speaker 1: run away because they know that they can't handle a
Speaker 1: relationship even if they care about you. And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I can sort of see that in Troy, of
Speaker 1: like he knows he's a piece of ship to some extent,
Speaker 1: and like even if you love someone and you know
Speaker 1: you're a piece of ship, but then but then he's
Speaker 1: also so unwilling to work on himself that you're just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, what do you guys think? Well,
Speaker 1: I would have definitely had the hots for Ethan Hawk's
Speaker 1: character when I was in my early twenties, No question.
Speaker 1: I would have let him suck up my life, suck
Speaker 1: up my credit, crash on my couch, no question in
Speaker 1: my mind, I would have gotten sucked up in that
Speaker 1: Troy tornado. Happily, I would have been in love with
Speaker 1: steve 'son and then he would have come out to me,
Speaker 1: and then I would have been like, I'm happy for you,
Speaker 1: and then I would have cried for weeks and then
Speaker 1: we would have been friends forever. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't get the whole Oh, we love each other,
Speaker 1: but we refuse to admit it thing. I mean I do.
Speaker 1: But for me, at least, if I like someone romantically,
Speaker 1: I go out of my way to tell them, see
Speaker 1: I will, I will be quiet about it forever. So
Speaker 1: I do understand like where he's coming from. But also,
Speaker 1: but but I feel like that gets conflated with like,
Speaker 1: and so he's allowed to be an asshole and neg everything.
Speaker 1: She says. It's like, well, it's one thing to not
Speaker 1: express your romantic feelings to someone, but that doesn't automatically
Speaker 1: translate to like, and you get to be at evil
Speaker 1: villain because you can't. But i'fe like that's where a
Speaker 1: lot of the masculine issues that Troy has, that's where
Speaker 1: a lot of them live. The film really like validates
Speaker 1: his antisocial dick behavior, And it's supposed to be like, well,
Speaker 1: he's an artist, he's tortured, he's emotionally unavailable, and we're
Speaker 1: supposed to not find that problematic as of you. We're
Speaker 1: supposed to like empathize for him being in that state,
Speaker 1: as opposed to be like, well, you're an adult and
Speaker 1: you are responsible for communicating the way that you feel.
Speaker 1: If you can't, we're not all supposed to find it
Speaker 1: charming or whatever, right, And it's like there are moments
Speaker 1: where Laney like does explicitly say that where she's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a fucking artist. Then like where is the art at?
Speaker 1: Like what are you doing? What? You don't do shit?
Speaker 1: Like she calls him out on his ship, but then
Speaker 1: like the but then she just ends up with him anyways,
Speaker 1: and the I don't It is a tricky movie because
Speaker 1: sometimes you're like, you know, there's a lot of criticisms
Speaker 1: I would have of these characters that I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I probably did something like that when I was twenty two.
Speaker 1: I probably did something emotionally volatile and weird. Um. But
Speaker 1: it's it's tricky. Um. There's this through line in the movie,
Speaker 1: or this kind of like subplot where Vicky we learned
Speaker 1: that she has a lot of casual X and then
Speaker 1: she becomes worried that she is HIV positive because a
Speaker 1: friend of hers tested positive for HIV, so we see
Speaker 1: her going to get tested. We then see a scene
Speaker 1: where Lena's boss aka Mr. Fraser's dad is an asshole
Speaker 1: to her, so she retaliates by humiliating him on air,
Speaker 1: which gets her fired. So now she's worried about money.
Speaker 1: She's worried about paying rent. Troy consoles her and in
Speaker 1: so doing, he surprised kisses her and she's like, no,
Speaker 1: it'll ruin our friendship. And also I'm dating Michael. Troy's
Speaker 1: ability to make anything and everything about himself is um
Speaker 1: infurious staggering. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lelena shows Michael her documentary and
Speaker 1: he is like a VP of programming for this TV
Speaker 1: network similar to MTV called in Your Face, and he
Speaker 1: thinks this documentary would be great programing for the network,
Speaker 1: but Lena isn't sure about that. Um. We also see
Speaker 1: Troy after having been rejected by Lena. He's being pretty distant.
Speaker 1: Then we see Lilena trying to get a new job
Speaker 1: in television, but she can't get hired for anything. She
Speaker 1: then considers a hot dog job's hot dog David Spade
Speaker 1: hot dog cameo, Hello there. And I also like that
Speaker 1: she can't hack in the world of hot dogs. She's
Speaker 1: that I found to be good hot dog representation of
Speaker 1: like not just anyone can work in hot dogs, which
Speaker 1: is true. And on the other end, I appreciate that
Speaker 1: there's a through line with Laney that she is a
Speaker 1: smart and creative young woman who is constantly thwarted by
Speaker 1: being bad at math. Um don't know that? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like I know this, I know this struggle. I know
Speaker 1: this pain at math, bad at money numbers in general
Speaker 1: or not her strong suit like no way either. Let's
Speaker 1: be real, could either of you to add two numbers
Speaker 1: like that in your head? Like he he throws her
Speaker 1: like three dred and sixteen plus twenty nine, Like you
Speaker 1: couldn't add that in your head quickly without a piece
Speaker 1: of paper, right right? And she also like I do
Speaker 1: like how I mean, like when not the writer's the bet,
Speaker 1: Like I love this character like just buckles under like
Speaker 1: one milliss thing of pressure at any time. They're like
Speaker 1: to find a word, she's like and like explode And
Speaker 1: he's like, what's stupiless too? And she's like, I don't
Speaker 1: know that is that doesn't have My favorite line of
Speaker 1: the whole movie when she can't add the numbers that
Speaker 1: she's guessing and David's fate is like it's not an option,
Speaker 1: and then that that seems, I mean, it is a
Speaker 1: well written like the line that it ends on. Rai's like, look,
Speaker 1: I've been at this job for six months, for a
Speaker 1: reason like that's honestly the funniest scene in the movie.
Speaker 1: The scene that proceeds that we'll talk about. But there's
Speaker 1: some really fucked up ablest language and ideology that's happening there. Yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: So Lena, she's struggling to get a new job. She's
Speaker 1: bumming around for a while. Then she calls a psychic
Speaker 1: cot line and racks up a huge phone bill. So
Speaker 1: now she has to figure out how to pay it
Speaker 1: off and get her life back on track. So she
Speaker 1: basically starts running a scam where she pays for people's
Speaker 1: gas with her dad's gas card but makes the customers
Speaker 1: give her cash. So she's collecting the cash knowing that
Speaker 1: her dad will pay off the gas card, and that's
Speaker 1: how she like earns enough money to pay for this
Speaker 1: phone bill. She she taps in and out of her privilege.
Speaker 1: It's wild, It's wild. Yeah. So then Michael tells Lena
Speaker 1: that his network wants to buy her documentary and make
Speaker 1: it a series. Um, and she's very excited about that
Speaker 1: because she's like, this solve my money problems. And then
Speaker 1: Michael and Troy argue because Troy is being an asshole
Speaker 1: and he's like, you don't know what Lena needs, and
Speaker 1: Michael's like, I know what she needs in a way
Speaker 1: that you never will, and you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: put your dicks away and stop trying to measure them.
Speaker 1: And then and then the fact that they go back
Speaker 1: for round two before the end of the movie. I'm like, you, guys, this,
Speaker 1: this is such a bad look. She shouldn't pick. I
Speaker 1: was really hoping she would do the thing where she
Speaker 1: is like, wait a second, I'm twenty two. I picked nobody.
Speaker 1: I picked myself right, Yeah. Yeah, Sex in the City
Speaker 1: finale style. I mean I I do I in the
Speaker 1: universe of this film. I always wonder is Michael such
Speaker 1: a bad guy? Like what did he do that was
Speaker 1: other than with the movie? Like what do you do
Speaker 1: that was so wrong? I have the same thoughts. I
Speaker 1: don't hate Michael. I think it's very interesting that the
Speaker 1: movie seems to want I mean, I feel we're supposed
Speaker 1: to dislike Michael because he works for a corporation, but
Speaker 1: he's like a yuppie sellout. Yeah, he's a yuppie sellout.
Speaker 1: But the messaging of this movie is so muddled where
Speaker 1: it's like it's okay if some people are sellout, but
Speaker 1: it's not okay if other people are. Again, I just
Speaker 1: like it makes me want to read earlier drafts of
Speaker 1: this movie because I found Michael to be a pretty
Speaker 1: sympathetic character, and I liked that the movie went out
Speaker 1: of its way to characterize him as like a guy
Speaker 1: that had dreams but was bad at math, and like
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't know, it's so weird because you
Speaker 1: put yourself in gen X brain and we you know,
Speaker 1: we all work for fucking I heart radio. We don't
Speaker 1: have a like to stand on when it comes to
Speaker 1: like being yuppie fucking sellouts here, we are not even
Speaker 1: a little bit. I take what I am. I am,
Speaker 1: I have a price, people have met it. You know
Speaker 1: what can I say? Right like and and it's a
Speaker 1: very twenty two year old mentality. And I don't even
Speaker 1: mean that in a negative way. I think, like young
Speaker 1: people being vehemently anti capitalist is always a net good thing.
Speaker 1: But but to put all of the evils of capitalism
Speaker 1: onto like one benz Diller, who is the only person
Speaker 1: in the movie, or the only man in the movie
Speaker 1: who seems to a be willing to apologize for when
Speaker 1: he fox up and be like accept Laney's decisions and
Speaker 1: like seems to like genuinely respect and love her. I
Speaker 1: felt like a sellout for kind of being like is
Speaker 1: he not bad? But like is he saying I don't know?
Speaker 1: Are we are we old by saying is he that bad?
Speaker 1: But I don't think he's that bad. He is sweet
Speaker 1: to her. Troy treats her like shit, Like there's a
Speaker 1: noble difference in the way that those two guys treat her.
Speaker 1: And I also feel like he is you know, he
Speaker 1: like wants to siphon off corporate money to get her
Speaker 1: art out into the world, which again you would think
Speaker 1: is exactly what's happening by reality bites being made and
Speaker 1: by producers championing this young writer and like, so there's
Speaker 1: all these like interesting parallels that I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: hate Michael. I understand people's criticisms of him, like ideologically,
Speaker 1: but like he seems like a pretty nice guy. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I would let him take me to
Speaker 1: the aquarium restaurant. I'm just saying. Watching that's when I
Speaker 1: was in high school. But I first watched it, I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, he's such a yuppy fuck. Troy is
Speaker 1: the is clearly the right match for her. Watching it
Speaker 1: recently in my thirties, I was like that, Michael seems
Speaker 1: like a nice guy, probably got a furrow one k
Speaker 1: taking her to dinner. Guy, Like I literally was like, dude,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was like at this point, like
Speaker 1: you can't be emotionally abusive and make me pay your rent,
Speaker 1: like you make a fucking lane man, And like, anyways,
Speaker 1: he really I think he really has choice number in
Speaker 1: that scene where he's trying when they have their second conversation,
Speaker 1: like you're like the Jester, like holding a skull, Like
Speaker 1: it comes out terribly, But I think that he really
Speaker 1: is the only person in the movie who really see
Speaker 1: Stoy for who he actually is, which is just somebody
Speaker 1: who wants to make crafts jokes while really offering not
Speaker 1: a lot himself. Is that Yeah? And I also was like,
Speaker 1: would I ultimately date a guy fumbling that hard to
Speaker 1: make a Hamlet reference? Yes, of course I would. Where
Speaker 1: he's like in the Clown and the Skull and he's alone,
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, man, yeah, okay, we're all I guess
Speaker 1: we're all on team Michael. It doesn't feel like a
Speaker 1: great place to be but what's the alternative? But here
Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, apparently it's she has to end up
Speaker 1: with a guy buddy movie, right, There's no alternative, So
Speaker 1: these are the choices. Okay, So, speaking of selling out,
Speaker 1: Lena sees what the In her Face network did to
Speaker 1: her documentary footage, which basically makes a mockery of her
Speaker 1: and her friends. So she's furious and she storms out
Speaker 1: back home. She and Troy talk and he's like, I
Speaker 1: do love you for real this time, and then they
Speaker 1: smooch and then they frick. But then the next morning,
Speaker 1: Troy is very distant and he bails, and Lena goes
Speaker 1: to his show that night, I think where Michael shows
Speaker 1: up and apologizes to Lelena for the whole network mishap.
Speaker 1: He's like, let's go to New York and we'll show
Speaker 1: the network the series the way that you want it
Speaker 1: to be. But then Troy pops up and he's like,
Speaker 1: I panicked this morning, and yeah, I know him an asshole,
Speaker 1: but I'm the only real thing you have. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that speech a legendary, a legendarily bad. And she well,
Speaker 1: this is like, what what drives me up a wall
Speaker 1: about this movie is she reacts appropriately, She's like, go
Speaker 1: fuck yourself, because he literally is like, yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: treat you bad. Yeah, I'm gonna disappear out of nowhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't play by anyone's rules, and I don't respect you, God,
Speaker 1: but I love you. And dude, oh my god, imagine
Speaker 1: that a man like said that to you, all defiantly
Speaker 1: expecting you to like marry him because of that pet
Speaker 1: or something, or like run away with him. The audacity
Speaker 1: of straight man. Let me tell you, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I was. I was a pretty exceptionally um bad decision
Speaker 1: maker at twenty two, but even I wouldn't have gone
Speaker 1: for that bullshit. He's he's literally telling on himself in
Speaker 1: a in a way that it's like almost doing her
Speaker 1: a favor because then you're like, okay, you're telling me
Speaker 1: who you are. Now I can walk away. There has
Speaker 1: to be a version of this movie where she walks away,
Speaker 1: like I would hope. So, what the hell do you think?
Speaker 1: It's like one of those situations like I was it
Speaker 1: Pretty in Pink or Sixteen Candles where there's two apparently
Speaker 1: two versions where she chooses the one guy and then
Speaker 1: she chooses the other audiences didn't like it, Like, do
Speaker 1: you think there's a cut of the scripts somewhere where
Speaker 1: she doesn't choose him. I think it's pretty in pink.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing if there were seventy drafts, the coin couldn't
Speaker 1: have flipped in his favor and all seventy right, I
Speaker 1: don't know what you would think, right, Yeah. Anyway, point
Speaker 1: is that this love triangle slash like competition between Troy
Speaker 1: and Michael for Lolene's affection. It's like reaching its peak here.
Speaker 1: Then Troy leaves town. We find out it's because his
Speaker 1: father passed away, but he doesn't really tell Lolena that
Speaker 1: he's leaving, and so she's looking for him. She's thinking
Speaker 1: about him, she's moping around, and then Sammy's like, oh no,
Speaker 1: Troy went to Chicago. So she's about to go after him.
Speaker 1: But before she can, Troy shows up at her doorstep
Speaker 1: and he's like, I love you, and I wish I
Speaker 1: had behaved differently the morning after we smooched and fricked,
Speaker 1: and then they smooch again, and then we flash forward
Speaker 1: in time. They're together, it seems like they live together,
Speaker 1: and then the movie ends with Lilane's dad calling and
Speaker 1: being like, why is there a nine dollar bill on
Speaker 1: my gas card? Yeah? The end, Can I say something
Speaker 1: about that? Because the scene where Okay, they smooch and
Speaker 1: they frick, he wakes up, feels weird, bails Okay. Then
Speaker 1: Laney is like where is Hei. There's like a montage
Speaker 1: where it's like that's sad you two song is playing
Speaker 1: and it's like have you seen him? Like she's like
Speaker 1: going to all his old haunts and like finding his laundry,
Speaker 1: and then Steve's on it is like, oh, his dad
Speaker 1: is sick. He's in Chicago. I ever heard of a
Speaker 1: fucking phone? Like, I guess I feel like, I mean,
Speaker 1: he does call her, but then he's like I can't.
Speaker 1: Oh that's all right. I hate it. It's like I
Speaker 1: guess i'd just be like in the universe of the film,
Speaker 1: him not being able to physically express himself verbally even
Speaker 1: this to be like, Yo, my dad is really sick.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be gone for a couple of days. Talk
Speaker 1: to you. Then I don't think we're weird. When he
Speaker 1: shows up unexpectedly at her door, we're supposed to be like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is so heavy, and in reality, it's like he
Speaker 1: just skipped town for a legitimate reason, but couldn't even
Speaker 1: leave her a voicemail letting her know, Like, and why,
Speaker 1: I guess I feel like why is it treated as
Speaker 1: deep in the movie or like like a weighty emotional
Speaker 1: choice all he had, Like he couldn't leave a message, right,
Speaker 1: and then him showing back up is like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it's so romantic that he just showed up on her
Speaker 1: doorstep and professed his love after he's been an asshole
Speaker 1: to her for the entire movie, which is like, it's
Speaker 1: so it's such an abrupt way to end it, because
Speaker 1: it's like if there was a draft of the script
Speaker 1: produced where the fact like it's it's referenced twice early
Speaker 1: in the movie that Troy is dealing with a terminally
Speaker 1: ill parent, and like the I can't imagine, thankfully, I
Speaker 1: can't imagine the existential stress that comes with that, especially
Speaker 1: when you're so young. Like that is a real thing
Speaker 1: that I'm sure, I mean like causes people to act
Speaker 1: out and like you know, like that grieving process is
Speaker 1: a real thing, but like there's no emphasis put on it,
Speaker 1: and it's made to seem like well, because the horrible
Speaker 1: thing happens that excuses how poorly he's treated people this
Speaker 1: entire movie, when it's like there's I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I always we've talked about this a bunch on the show,
Speaker 1: but there's like such a dearth of like movies that
Speaker 1: address grief in a in a thoughtful way, and it's
Speaker 1: like that there is an opportunity to like explore it
Speaker 1: with Troy's character, but like it just doesn't really go
Speaker 1: there because it's like you obviously like feel for him,
Speaker 1: he's lost a parent, but it doesn't mean that he
Speaker 1: hasn't been treating Laney like ship seemingly before his dad
Speaker 1: was even sick. Like it's like he's just been an
Speaker 1: at Like he's an asshole going through something horrible. That's
Speaker 1: an interesting thing to explore, but you can't just like
Speaker 1: forgive the behavior. I don't know, he does nothing to
Speaker 1: redeem himself. That's exactly it. We we as the audience
Speaker 1: never see him, Like what is the thing that we
Speaker 1: don't see him grappling with any of that, like coming
Speaker 1: to realize, you know, I have treated her badly and
Speaker 1: I have like not treated her the way that I
Speaker 1: wanted to treat her, And you know I've learned from
Speaker 1: my behavior. You don't you don't see any of that,
Speaker 1: you know where you just are spant to be like,
Speaker 1: oh his dad passed away, that was some sort of
Speaker 1: emotional block or weight lifted, and now he's gonna show
Speaker 1: up at her door and she's gonna be thrilled to
Speaker 1: have him. Like I think if the movie had shown
Speaker 1: us a little bit or like built like built that
Speaker 1: out a little bit more, I would be more willing
Speaker 1: to accept it. Also, sign oute Jamie, how many beverages
Speaker 1: do you have? Because I've seen now the coffee whatever
Speaker 1: than the kids. This is I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Look
Speaker 1: we've got we've got three. We've got three on rotation
Speaker 1: right now, pretty cool, or or any of the diet cokes,
Speaker 1: because you know who loves the diet coke. Jamie's got
Speaker 1: a diet coke. I was like, wow, quirky white girl
Speaker 1: drinks too many big gulps. Someone has my fucking number,
Speaker 1: Like ridiculous. By the way, we need to take a
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come right back. And
Speaker 1: we're back and we're so hydrated and we're doing great.
Speaker 1: I would say that most actually the things I'm drinking
Speaker 1: are not contributing to hydration. Um, by the time this
Speaker 1: episode comes out, I will have already said something about it.
Speaker 1: But I've been working at um Haunted hey Ride, and
Speaker 1: so I just I forgot I had all all of
Speaker 1: my last night's hay Ride beverages, and so I've just
Speaker 1: kind of been draining them throughout the morning and afternoon. Beautiful. Um,
Speaker 1: so we we've we started talking about the Lana slash
Speaker 1: Troy slash Michael love my angle. What else needs to
Speaker 1: be said about that? Yeah, let's let's kind of tackle it.
Speaker 1: So I this kind of gets into my curiosity about
Speaker 1: like how this movie was written and made. Okay, so
Speaker 1: a lot of this revolves around the writer, Helen child
Speaker 1: Dress or Childress I'm truly not totally sure, but there's
Speaker 1: a there is a piece that came out a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago from Atlantic writer Sriah Roberts, um work
Speaker 1: I really like, but about sort of the legacy of
Speaker 1: this movie and um, how it's remembered because I guess
Speaker 1: when this movie came out, it was not popular with
Speaker 1: its target audience nor which I feel like is a
Speaker 1: very gen ic thing of like fucky, you don't make
Speaker 1: a corporate movie that me, you know, so like whatever,
Speaker 1: I get it, But how Helen child Dress is like
Speaker 1: kind of been left out of the narrative even like
Speaker 1: it just feels like a very hollywoody story where studios
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, gen X, like they're now viable consumers
Speaker 1: or whatever by the early nineties, and we want to
Speaker 1: have a like generation defining studio movie because there had
Speaker 1: been a couple of indie movies that had done well.
Speaker 1: There was a a Richard link Letter movie that I've
Speaker 1: never seen that, but like they were like, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: an audience for this, let's do a studio version of it.
Speaker 1: So they bring in this young writer, like Helen child
Speaker 1: Dress is is Laney in a lot of ways, which
Speaker 1: she's very much admitted to. And so she's like being
Speaker 1: given five hundred dollars a week to write this movie.
Speaker 1: Laney makes four dollars a week. She's pulling from her
Speaker 1: own experiences and her own friends. But by she wasn't
Speaker 1: even invited to the twenty five year reunion of this movie,
Speaker 1: like it got swallowed full by Hollywood, and like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like whatever, I can't make a character
Speaker 1: judgment on Ben Stiller based on this, but it seems
Speaker 1: like this is more remembered as like Ben Stiller's first
Speaker 1: directed movie and not like Helen Child. Dress's experience is
Speaker 1: committed to film. She also has not gotten a script
Speaker 1: produced since, which feels relevant. Um, we just wanted to
Speaker 1: share a quick quote from her from nine also to
Speaker 1: tie it back to the love triangle that was ben
Speaker 1: Stiller's suggestion and idea. Helen Child just early versions of
Speaker 1: the script gave fuller pictures of all I guess four
Speaker 1: main characters live, so there was more Steve's on, there
Speaker 1: was more Janine Garoffalo, but ben Stiller was like, let's
Speaker 1: keep it focused on the relationship, which is what we
Speaker 1: all have hated the most. Interestingly the note from the
Speaker 1: male director. But um, yeah, she said. Um. Helen Child
Speaker 1: was said, I have worked consistently and constantly for twenty
Speaker 1: nine years. Um. They estimated she's written forty screenplays since
Speaker 1: Reality Bites. Um. She says. Of the handful she wrote
Speaker 1: on Spacked, half were sold er optioned. Most of them
Speaker 1: feature female protagonists. In all sincerity, I think that was
Speaker 1: a problem. Um, which is I mean, nineteen is a
Speaker 1: stretch we have well covered, and so that is definitely
Speaker 1: a thing. So yeah, and and to be clear, so
Speaker 1: she she went for like two decades or slightly more
Speaker 1: without any writing credit. So if you look at her
Speaker 1: I am dB, she does have some writing credits from
Speaker 1: like I think sixteen and beyond, I think for mostly television.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she made this movie that ended up being
Speaker 1: this like cult classic, like people still ride for this movie.
Speaker 1: But ben Stiller hasn't had trouble directing more movies. And yeah,
Speaker 1: she's not given the credit where credit is due for
Speaker 1: like telling her own story and for example, like the
Speaker 1: I'm also pulling this from that Atlantic piece. But um,
Speaker 1: the iconic my Sharona dancing at the gas station scene
Speaker 1: is like one of the producers of this movie, Michael
Speaker 1: Shamberg credited that scene to Ben Stiller entirely. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was Ben Stiller's idea. But Helen Childress was like, um, hello,
Speaker 1: I wrote that into the screenplay in the script, So
Speaker 1: how and what why was it his idea? It wasn't.
Speaker 1: It was just this male producer failing to give the screenwriter,
Speaker 1: Helen her Duke, credit for writing that scene into the movie.
Speaker 1: And then when that was pointed out, this guy Shamberg
Speaker 1: was like, oops, uh, yeah, I guess she does. And
Speaker 1: then he said something like, so she deserves credit for
Speaker 1: guiding Ben's direction. And then he says, I think the
Speaker 1: reason that I mistakenly gave Ben all the credit was
Speaker 1: that he was determined to give this feature film his
Speaker 1: feature film directorial debut a strong visual style. So the
Speaker 1: guy can't even like her, But like, what does that
Speaker 1: have to do with Like it's again bare minimum ship, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: he directed the script, like that's that's his job. She
Speaker 1: wrote the scene like it's hurt. So yeah, It's just
Speaker 1: all of this is very indicative of the way that
Speaker 1: women in Hollywood are often erased from the narrative, forgotten about, ignored,
Speaker 1: not given do credit, all of that stuff. All that
Speaker 1: to say, also, this movie is produced by Danny de Vito.
Speaker 1: Just wanted to throw that out there. Danny. I don't
Speaker 1: have any more information than that, but to bring it
Speaker 1: back to the love triangle. Focusing on the love triangle
Speaker 1: was very much a Ben Stiller note, and it's the
Speaker 1: thing that we that bothered us the most. In that
Speaker 1: Atlantic piece, they do talk a little bit about Michael,
Speaker 1: but in a way that I thought was interesting where
Speaker 1: like that character it seems like went through a lot
Speaker 1: of different drafts and Ben Stiller wasn't originally supposed to
Speaker 1: play the character, and then eventually he's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can pull from my own experience as you know, like
Speaker 1: not even to insult it, but like you know, as
Speaker 1: like a working sellout basically to you know, kind of
Speaker 1: flesh out this character and like, I feel like I
Speaker 1: can relate with some of these moral dilemmas. And I
Speaker 1: guess that he and Helen Child just would improvise as
Speaker 1: the two characters to like figure out what that relationship was,
Speaker 1: which I thought was kind of a fun way to write.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that that's part of the reason why Michael
Speaker 1: does come out as a more sympathetic character than if
Speaker 1: he was just written as like, this is the guy
Speaker 1: you don't want to end up with, this is Mr Business,
Speaker 1: this is Mr Evil. Right, I'm seeing not to bring
Speaker 1: up Titanic again, But what choice do I have? I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it would have been, yeah, kind of an
Speaker 1: easier or like maybe a lazier choice to have like
Speaker 1: the Ben Stiller character be like cal Hockley, and then
Speaker 1: you have your like Ethan Hawk being more of the
Speaker 1: Jack Dawson who is artsy and poor and who isn't
Speaker 1: some cog in the capitalist machine like the boyfriend at
Speaker 1: the beginning of every lifetime movie, where like, this woman
Speaker 1: is uptight, woman is dating like a guy who only
Speaker 1: cares about his job, and she needs to date someone
Speaker 1: who is free and wants to save this Christmas tree
Speaker 1: farm or whatever. She needs to move back home and
Speaker 1: start a Christmas tree farm and that's uh, and and
Speaker 1: go to church tomorrow while you're at it. That's a
Speaker 1: more respectable outcome for a woman. Yeah, but yeah, just
Speaker 1: to put I guess a button on the love triangle thing,
Speaker 1: it feels like such a trophy choice to have a
Speaker 1: woman be in this like hetero love triangle where she
Speaker 1: has to pick one or the other and the option
Speaker 1: of like not picking one of them isn't presented, and
Speaker 1: then ultimately she picks the worst option of the two
Speaker 1: guys because again, both aren't great options, but at least
Speaker 1: Michael is nice to her and Troy enjoy such an asshole,
Speaker 1: and it just kind of sends this message that so
Speaker 1: many movies and in so much media has delivered to audience,
Speaker 1: which is that, oh yeah, a man can treat a
Speaker 1: woman like shit, uh, and he doesn't have to apologize
Speaker 1: for it, and she will still pick him for reasons unclear.
Speaker 1: I personally blame the studio executives for that. I feel
Speaker 1: comfortable blaming the studio executives for perpetuating that because it
Speaker 1: just feels like very nineties Hollywood studio notes in general,
Speaker 1: because it sounds like Helen Child just wanted to take
Speaker 1: it in a totally different direction that would have allowed
Speaker 1: you to explore these side characters who I think are
Speaker 1: like really interesting, and there's a lot like the you
Speaker 1: do get a fair amount with Lena and Um and
Speaker 1: Vicky and their friendship, but like, I just like I
Speaker 1: wanted to see more of that because there's so I
Speaker 1: was trying to think of other friendships that It's like,
Speaker 1: it's a loving, supportive friendship that is constantly challenged by
Speaker 1: like class issues, which is like something I have you
Speaker 1: don't really see in movies very often. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I want to see the version of
Speaker 1: this movie that's more focused on that. I want to
Speaker 1: see the version of this movie where you know, our
Speaker 1: only openly queer character gets more than like mentioning three
Speaker 1: quarters through the movie by the way I'm coming out,
Speaker 1: I mean great, but you know, you just don't get
Speaker 1: a lot. Where's Where's my son? Yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: the point that you make about flushing out those those
Speaker 1: side characters more, I think is so apt, especially with
Speaker 1: somebody like Vicky, because you know, they allude to the
Speaker 1: fact that Vicky is obsessed with like seventies pop culture,
Speaker 1: and so if she's you know, just graduated from college,
Speaker 1: that's probably her childhood. So are we supposed to under
Speaker 1: We're supposed to like what's going on there that she
Speaker 1: is someone who is a you know, sexual libertine, but
Speaker 1: it's perhaps obsessed with the ideality childhood of her youth.
Speaker 1: Like I feel that there's a draft of the movie
Speaker 1: that made that flushes that out, But in the in
Speaker 1: the version that we see, we're left to connect these
Speaker 1: dots that are not really connected for us in ways
Speaker 1: that I think just don't really work. It's confusing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like I would love to know why she's so
Speaker 1: fixated on disc and I bridget You're probably right that
Speaker 1: it's just like a childhood nostalgia thing, but we just
Speaker 1: don't even get I didn't even think that yet, that
Speaker 1: thread is never really connected. And then that, I mean
Speaker 1: is one thing I did like is that like much
Speaker 1: like us and I probably for generation ever because whenever
Speaker 1: special as we think we are. Um. I did like
Speaker 1: how these characters are constantly trying to contextualize their own
Speaker 1: experience using pop culture. Where even when Vicky is talking
Speaker 1: about her stress about waiting for to find out if
Speaker 1: she is HIV positive or negative, which I thought was
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't expecting that to be tackled within
Speaker 1: this movie, and I thought it was pretty tastefully and
Speaker 1: thoughtfully done. Um. But the way that she explains her
Speaker 1: anxiety is like imagining herself as a character on Melrose
Speaker 1: Place and right, but like the way that it's presented
Speaker 1: isn't condescending. It doesn't make her seem silly or like unintelligent.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh yeah, that's like, not only are you
Speaker 1: worried about potentially being very sick? Like also I feel
Speaker 1: like that in that like simple exchange, she's describing how
Speaker 1: she thinks the world will perceive her if the results
Speaker 1: come back a certain way. Because pop culture trains you
Speaker 1: how to see the world in so many ways, and
Speaker 1: like moments like that, I was like that is awesome.
Speaker 1: You never get stuff like that that's interesting. I have
Speaker 1: mixed feelings about the way the movie handles HIV and AIDS.
Speaker 1: Um the movie seems to be quite obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: Number one, there are several references and like sometimes kind
Speaker 1: of like offhand jokes made about it, or like characters
Speaker 1: will make an offhand comment or joke about HIV and AIDS.
Speaker 1: And then the kind of main conflict that the Vicki
Speaker 1: characters is dealing with is that she is worried that
Speaker 1: she might be positive for HIV, and so she goes
Speaker 1: to get tested. And this is based on her having
Speaker 1: you know, multiple sexual partners. She has a little book
Speaker 1: like a sex diary, seems, where she like writes down
Speaker 1: the names and the dates of the people she had
Speaker 1: sex with. She doesn't always remember their names. I used
Speaker 1: to do that based on this movie because I saw
Speaker 1: this movie when I was a version and when I
Speaker 1: started having sex, I was like, oh, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: keep a diary. I don't have it anymore, but in
Speaker 1: my early days of being sexual, I love it. It
Speaker 1: could be a helpful tool, I feel like, But you know,
Speaker 1: so she gets tested, she's waiting on the results. Um
Speaker 1: Prior to her getting the results, she you know, expresses
Speaker 1: a lot of concern about, you know, yeah, the way
Speaker 1: she might be perceived or what her life might be
Speaker 1: like if she is HIV positive. I just felt that, Okay,
Speaker 1: for this to be an issue that a hetero sis
Speaker 1: woman is dealing with, when HIV and AIDS is something
Speaker 1: that largely affected the queer community, it just feels like
Speaker 1: a weird erature of that. And obviously I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that hetero people cannot become HIV positive and have AIDS,
Speaker 1: but it's an issue that was famously not handled well
Speaker 1: because it disproportionately affected the queer community, and you know,
Speaker 1: like Reagan and and other administrations and institutions didn't give
Speaker 1: a shit about the queer community. So it was just
Speaker 1: like very mishandled basically every administration. Right. So for a
Speaker 1: straight character to have a storyline where she's concerned about this,
Speaker 1: it just felt kind of maybe indicative of that erasure.
Speaker 1: But I was like, well, what's the alternative to have
Speaker 1: the one queer character in the movie to be concerned
Speaker 1: about that. I wouldn't want that either. I mean I
Speaker 1: think that that then you could really easily skew into
Speaker 1: tragedy porn. And my understanding is that um Helen Childress
Speaker 1: is not a queer writer, and so it's like, would
Speaker 1: it have been her place? I also was not sure.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't surprised that this movie had a
Speaker 1: preoccupation with the AIDS epidemic because it was started being
Speaker 1: written in It makes total sense to me that this
Speaker 1: would be something that these characters would realistically be talking
Speaker 1: and thinking about. But I mean, yeah, I I wasn't
Speaker 1: quite sure where to place it. I thought it was
Speaker 1: like interesting that they tackled the subject at all. I
Speaker 1: think it would have been a really easy issue that
Speaker 1: this group of friends would have been thinking about to
Speaker 1: erase from a major studio movie. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's like with this specific writer in this
Speaker 1: specific movie. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have preferred it
Speaker 1: if the steves On character was if his whole storyline
Speaker 1: was defined by that. But then I guess that that's
Speaker 1: also the thing with having only one queer character in
Speaker 1: your movie. Like, I don't know, it didn't bother me
Speaker 1: that much, but also I'm completely open to that story
Speaker 1: point not being yeah, yeah, curious would if any listeners
Speaker 1: have any insight on that. Um, can we talk about
Speaker 1: the steves On character, Sammy, Let's talk about on Baby,
Speaker 1: that's gonna be a new segment on the show, and
Speaker 1: then talk about the steves On intersections. Okay, So it
Speaker 1: didn't even register with me that he is a queer
Speaker 1: character for a while, which does a few things. Signals
Speaker 1: to me that he is just allowed to be a
Speaker 1: queer character without that being like the first or defining
Speaker 1: thing you know about him, So his queerness is normalized
Speaker 1: in the story and in the world that he occupies.
Speaker 1: I also didn't notice any stereotypes of gay men being
Speaker 1: used with his character. But also he's kind of barely
Speaker 1: in the movie. He's the only character of the friend
Speaker 1: group that we see that we never see with a
Speaker 1: romantic or sexual partner, except there's maybe like one quick
Speaker 1: little scene where Sammy's in a diner with a guy
Speaker 1: named Lance. Yeah he's he, and he does introduce him
Speaker 1: as his boyfriend. Oh okay, I missed that. Okay, but
Speaker 1: that's such a quick throwaway moment, and clearly because I
Speaker 1: missed that part. So the fact that he like he's
Speaker 1: just not allowed to have any kind of like romantic
Speaker 1: subplot the way that other characters that's kind of like
Speaker 1: the focus of the movie. I did really like the
Speaker 1: scene where you see him and Vicky kind of like
Speaker 1: doing this bit where they're rehearsing him coming out to
Speaker 1: his family. Um, it's cute. And then you see the
Speaker 1: aftermath of him coming out to his family and they
Speaker 1: did not receive the information. Well there, they don't seem
Speaker 1: to be supportive, and you see how that affects him.
Speaker 1: You you see him talking about, you know, the reasons
Speaker 1: that he has chosen to be celibate, that he you know,
Speaker 1: hadn't been honest with himself about who he is, and
Speaker 1: you just like you see a lot of his kind
Speaker 1: of him expressing his inner struggles in a way that
Speaker 1: a lot of movies, especially from that era, never bothered
Speaker 1: to do or just like never handled well. So I
Speaker 1: thought that was it's queer representation in a movie at
Speaker 1: a time where there was very little on screen queer representation,
Speaker 1: and when it was there, it was usually really grossly mishandled.
Speaker 1: This representation isn't necessarily the best. Again, his character is
Speaker 1: kind of the of the four friends, like he has
Speaker 1: the least screen time and I think it's Helen Child.
Speaker 1: Riss did indicate that she wrote many versions of this group,
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. So again, it's like a studio issue
Speaker 1: of like, well, sure we can have an openly gay character,
Speaker 1: but not too much where. And this also feels like
Speaker 1: an era where I mean, even going back to Rent
Speaker 1: of like queer characters are or like the movie Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: which I've never seen but I know what happens in it.
Speaker 1: We're like, Okay, we could have gay characters on screen,
Speaker 1: but only if the worst possible thing happens to them.
Speaker 1: And so it's like we're not interested at this point
Speaker 1: in pop culture of like just exploring a queer person's
Speaker 1: day to day life in the way that this movie
Speaker 1: seems to be interested in. But then the studio doesn't
Speaker 1: let you go all the way of just like letting
Speaker 1: a gay man be a person, like and Steve's on
Speaker 1: such as sweetie, where's his first line? Where he's like
Speaker 1: such a He's just like, I don't know, I want
Speaker 1: a career. Oh, Mr Nice, Mr Nice. Yeah, let's take
Speaker 1: another break and then we will be right back and
Speaker 1: we're back. I wanted to go back a little bit
Speaker 1: to the so this is a very white middle to
Speaker 1: upper middle class. I think maybe spans because the middle
Speaker 1: class existed when this movie came out, which is kind
Speaker 1: of like confusing to navigate. I think that. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously they're all young white people who have done some college,
Speaker 1: and it seems like Ethan Hawk didn't finish college, not
Speaker 1: because it was financially struggling, but like because it was
Speaker 1: like a that was his ideological preference. So it wasn't
Speaker 1: like he had to drop out because he couldn't afford it.
Speaker 1: So as far as class, because I think it's like
Speaker 1: interesting and telling that this is like hailed as the
Speaker 1: gen X movie, even if Janet's audiences didn't like it
Speaker 1: at the time, and it's still so centered on the
Speaker 1: white middle to upper middle class experience. Oh yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of like social issues that get brought up
Speaker 1: in the movie that the characters talk about, Like so
Speaker 1: many movies ignore societal ills that are affecting you know,
Speaker 1: people across the globe. But they're talking about like the
Speaker 1: energy crisis and the environment. They're talking about class and
Speaker 1: wages and workers rights, they talk about world hunger. Like
Speaker 1: these things get brought up and the movie is largely
Speaker 1: about a young woman who's like optimistic and she wants
Speaker 1: to make a difference in the world and she wants
Speaker 1: to try to help fix some of these societal ills.
Speaker 1: But then she ultimately like doesn't really do anything and
Speaker 1: she just like kind of marinates in her privilege and
Speaker 1: makes a documentary about her friends what happens in Rent. Also,
Speaker 1: she acts like working retail after college it's the world,
Speaker 1: like the worst thing that, Like everybody works retail after
Speaker 1: college and it's not that like she makes it seem
Speaker 1: like it's the worst thing in the world. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I had so many feelings about that plot point, and
Speaker 1: that was another thing where it's like that to me
Speaker 1: was like what was really interesting about Like the tension
Speaker 1: between Vicky and Lena is like something that does genuinely
Speaker 1: suck about Lelena is she like wants to have her
Speaker 1: like cool, burnout friends, but she always there is an
Speaker 1: element to her character where she always has to view
Speaker 1: herself as a little bit above them, which is complicated
Speaker 1: because like there are things she says them like you're
Speaker 1: being an asshole. I know you're technically correct, where especially Troy,
Speaker 1: Troy is not paying rent. He refuses to look for work,
Speaker 1: like he's just being He is like actively mooching off
Speaker 1: of her and then negging her all the time, which
Speaker 1: is like go fund yourself. Situations very different with Vicky.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's telling that the only two people
Speaker 1: who live in this four person apartment are the two women. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think that Sammy has a job for most
Speaker 1: of the movie. Yeah, Also, I don't think he lives
Speaker 1: does he live there? I think he lives somewhere else,
Speaker 1: But I don't know ifwhere he lives somewhere else because
Speaker 1: at one point he comes in and um, went Ona rogers, like,
Speaker 1: what are you even doing here? You don't live here?
Speaker 1: But she says that's Detroit too, and he does, and
Speaker 1: they call it the Maxi Pad, which leads me to
Speaker 1: believe that it's a house where only women live. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I might been reading too much into that. No,
Speaker 1: I like that, But like with Vicky, I mean, like
Speaker 1: she I don't know, like there is kind of this.
Speaker 1: I wish that we could have explored it more because
Speaker 1: it's like Lenna is, you know, trying to like live
Speaker 1: life on her own terms while being while actively denying
Speaker 1: her own privilege, but you know, capitalizing on her own
Speaker 1: privilege when it suits her. Where Vicky it seems like
Speaker 1: she's from the lower middle class baby, it seems like
Speaker 1: she doesn't have of a safety net in the way
Speaker 1: that Lolena does. And she's working at the Gap, she
Speaker 1: becomes a manager. She's like taking pride in her work
Speaker 1: in a way that I thought was like really cool,
Speaker 1: Like she was just like, oh, you know that sort
Speaker 1: of shy, like I feel like a corporate sellout, but
Speaker 1: I'm also like I've never taken pride in my work before,
Speaker 1: and like that's a cool feeling, and that was like
Speaker 1: a cool element to that character. And then Lolena thinking
Speaker 1: she's a little too good for it and and like
Speaker 1: openly expressing that to Vicky and Vicky being local, fuck
Speaker 1: you, you you elitist break. There's there's there's like a couple
Speaker 1: of different times in the movie where someone calls another
Speaker 1: character out and you're like, yeah, good for you, and
Speaker 1: then it's just kind of dropped, and then we cut
Speaker 1: to the next scene and everyone's getting along again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what that gap thing? In particular, when La lana Is
Speaker 1: thinks that she's high and mighty, she's like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to work at the Gap for Christ's sake. But
Speaker 1: then when she's at her low moment, when she's on
Speaker 1: the couch, chain smoking, racking up money to the mine,
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, you think you're hot, ship because you
Speaker 1: work at the Gap. Like it's interesting how for her
Speaker 1: the gap is like beneath her. But then also she
Speaker 1: feels like it's being lorded over her later, right, Lena,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I wish that Vicky we just got a
Speaker 1: little more Vicky context. But I do like the peaks
Speaker 1: you have into her life of like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it was sweet that her parents, uh love each other,
Speaker 1: but she's very grossed out by their relationship and like, oh,
Speaker 1: good for you, Vicky, good for you. Your parents love
Speaker 1: each other. Oh I didn't read that that way at all.
Speaker 1: I read it is that they don't like each other
Speaker 1: and they like the romance is completely dead. We shipped
Speaker 1: with the door open. I thincause that's how dead the
Speaker 1: romance I think shipping. I think that you can have
Speaker 1: romance and ship with the door open. I agree the
Speaker 1: two are not mutually exclusive, but I think it's a
Speaker 1: very naive take on Vicky's part. It's like, well, I
Speaker 1: think maybe they're they're in super love because you can
Speaker 1: if you can see someone take a ship and still
Speaker 1: be like you like, let's smooch and frick um. So
Speaker 1: I mentioned this, but so as Lelena is like trying
Speaker 1: to sort out her money troubles and trying to get
Speaker 1: another job after she kind of like puts down working
Speaker 1: at the Gap. She then goes to her mom for
Speaker 1: a loan, and her mom suggests, well, why don't you
Speaker 1: work at a fast food restaurant. This is the scene
Speaker 1: where the R word is just casually thrown around by
Speaker 1: multiple characters. Several characters. Yeah, and not just in this scene,
Speaker 1: although it gets it gets said other times. And Lena
Speaker 1: dismisses a job at a fast food restaurant citing a
Speaker 1: very ablest reason. I do. I do appreciate that the
Speaker 1: movie kind of makes a point to show that a
Speaker 1: job at a fast food restaurant is harder and takes
Speaker 1: more skills. She cannot she cannot add eighty five together
Speaker 1: quickly or whatever the numbers were. Because the movie does
Speaker 1: have little moments of commentary like that, like kind of
Speaker 1: class commentary, and I think it has a lot of
Speaker 1: good moments. Yeah, there's a scene that seems to be
Speaker 1: satirizing networks like MTV and the entertainment of that era
Speaker 1: where Laney's watching a show and I forget what it's called,
Speaker 1: but it's this woman. She's like the host of this show.
Speaker 1: It's like a fashion fashion it's meant to be House
Speaker 1: of Style. Did y'all watch that? Oh my god? Empty.
Speaker 1: I might be older than you all, but it's it's
Speaker 1: clearly meant to be MTV's House of Style. Cindy Crawford
Speaker 1: got her start on that show, like it was like
Speaker 1: it was that checked that but I think so it
Speaker 1: was like in the nineties it was MTVS Fashion and
Speaker 1: it was always kind of like edgy hip hop fashion.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was their fashion show. Okay, So what
Speaker 1: happens in this like you know this like kind of
Speaker 1: spoof version of that on the In Your Face Network
Speaker 1: is it's this woman, she's the host of this show.
Speaker 1: And she's like today we're in I think they're in
Speaker 1: Compton and she's where in Compton? And you can buy
Speaker 1: this this Bandanna. It's got red for crips and blue
Speaker 1: for bloods or I don't even know if I have
Speaker 1: the colors right, And she's like and it's only seventy yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's made by Donna Carro and famously a bougee
Speaker 1: white woman. I actually love that comment. It's like the
Speaker 1: movie does try to do some nineties commentary of like
Speaker 1: that was the vibe of the nineties, like corporations and
Speaker 1: white rich people co opting like black folks and like
Speaker 1: Latino folks and like like working class like fashion and
Speaker 1: like making it a thousand dollars and then selling it
Speaker 1: back to people exactly. Yeah. I thought that, like especially
Speaker 1: for some reason, like the TV stuff especially, I thought
Speaker 1: was really really effective with the I mean, even with
Speaker 1: the Frasier's Dad Show, where it was very clearly like
Speaker 1: parodying a lot of daytime TV where it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, exploitative thing and tragic thing where you know,
Speaker 1: he's like today we have this amazing child and and
Speaker 1: someone with Alzheimer's disease and you're just like it, that
Speaker 1: is clear like what they're trying to do. And then
Speaker 1: I also thought it was like interesting that how when
Speaker 1: on a writer is like duped by a TV psychic
Speaker 1: and like that that was just a little montage of
Speaker 1: like predatory TV scams of the nine nineties because it
Speaker 1: was like TV College, TV Psychics and like just little
Speaker 1: ways that the culture of this time preyed on desperation
Speaker 1: and loneliness, which is like there's a different generational reboot
Speaker 1: of how to prey on desperation and loneliness. And I
Speaker 1: thought it was like kind of a fun comment on it. Oh,
Speaker 1: the TV Psychic scene has my favorite line of the
Speaker 1: movie where when her roommate is coming to talk to
Speaker 1: her about the phone bill over the phone, the TV
Speaker 1: Psychic is like, Laney, I said that you're in great danger, dangerous,
Speaker 1: And then and then Jean in Gruffalo is like, we
Speaker 1: have a four phone. What the fuck it's from this
Speaker 1: nine number? And then you just see when on a
Speaker 1: writer like very slowly hanging up the phone. That's comedy.
Speaker 1: I thought it was good. Yeah, Like it's like part
Speaker 1: of the reason that the ending to this movie bumps
Speaker 1: me out so much is I feel like there's so
Speaker 1: many like strong threads of like ways this movie could
Speaker 1: have gone. Characters, they could have expanded on more topics,
Speaker 1: they could have taken a little further, because it's like
Speaker 1: with Troy and Laney, like they're both shitty in their ways.
Speaker 1: Troy is by far worse, And I would hope that
Speaker 1: if Laney had done what I wanted her to do
Speaker 1: at the end and just like got her shipped together
Speaker 1: and figured out who she was as a person and
Speaker 1: worked a retail job and wasn't a total snob, I'm
Speaker 1: sure that these would be issues that hopefully would course
Speaker 1: correct later in her life. Troy maybe permanently broken. But
Speaker 1: like how Troy's central, Like it feels like what they're
Speaker 1: trying to ask with that character, I don't know, let
Speaker 1: me know what you think, because I was like, it
Speaker 1: seems like Troy is trying to do the thing where
Speaker 1: he's like saying something valid, but his methods are shitty
Speaker 1: and like don't make any difference for anything. Where it's
Speaker 1: like he wants to exist outside of capitalism. He resents capitalism,
Speaker 1: he resents that you are expected, you know, certain things
Speaker 1: are expected of you to exist in a society and
Speaker 1: be considered someone worthy of respect. A valid question and
Speaker 1: like fair, but like he sucks and like he's useless
Speaker 1: and he's mean, and then in the end he's kind
Speaker 1: of like rewarded by getting everything he ever wanted. So
Speaker 1: why I mean, because he's a white guy who had
Speaker 1: a safety net the whole time. That's why I like,
Speaker 1: at one point it's like a throwaway thing. But I
Speaker 1: think that Lena's dad set up a cushy job interview
Speaker 1: for Troy that he didn't go to, and I think
Speaker 1: he didn't go to it because he was like hanging
Speaker 1: out with her. I think that like her dad definitely
Speaker 1: is like I said, I'm a job interview and he
Speaker 1: couldn't even bother to show up. And so you're right
Speaker 1: that it's it's as someone who is a former like
Speaker 1: slacker knew a lot of like slacker types that were
Speaker 1: anti capitalists. It's really easy to be that way when
Speaker 1: you have a safety net, when people are looking out
Speaker 1: for you and someone can make a call and get
Speaker 1: you a job. And I think Troy is very good
Speaker 1: at presenting his his rejection of all that stuff ideologically
Speaker 1: on the outside, but not so good at acknowledging what
Speaker 1: he actually has access to, which is not nothing. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like Troy's life, I mean, his life would
Speaker 1: become so much more difficult if Laney and Vicky weren't
Speaker 1: constantly doing what he's yelling at them for all the time,
Speaker 1: which is working so that they all have a place
Speaker 1: to live, which Troy is not contributing to and is
Speaker 1: in fact actively hostile to them for like working so
Speaker 1: that he has somewhere to yell at them at. Like
Speaker 1: it's just it's so messy, and it's like the movie
Speaker 1: seems to know that, but then the ending it's it's wild.
Speaker 1: It's wild. I also find it fascinating and maybe this
Speaker 1: is some irony that the movie loves to talk about.
Speaker 1: But like the the like paradox of this being a
Speaker 1: movie about characters who are like, oh my god, selling
Speaker 1: out is like the worst thing you can do, and
Speaker 1: like it might be tempting, but ultimately your loser if
Speaker 1: you sell out. But then this was also a studio movie,
Speaker 1: and Ben Stiller said something like it's a strange thing
Speaker 1: because it was a studio movie about the ideas of
Speaker 1: commodification and descent or whatever. And the idea that it
Speaker 1: was a universal movie, meaning like the movie studio universal,
Speaker 1: a universal movie that was really sort of independent minded,
Speaker 1: was something that we struggled with. So it's like the
Speaker 1: same studio that released Jurassic Park the year before was
Speaker 1: also releasing reality Bites and clearly made a bunch of
Speaker 1: script changes, and like all, they had all these studio notes,
Speaker 1: and it's probably the reason that Lelaney ends up with
Speaker 1: Troy at the end, because that's kind of like the
Speaker 1: more like right gretty romantic choice for her to make,
Speaker 1: which I mean, I was glad that at least, like
Speaker 1: the major players and this who worked in this movie,
Speaker 1: I'll seem aware of that because it's like it's a
Speaker 1: pointed to just truly like what are you going to do?
Speaker 1: Like what the like? Because all of the you know,
Speaker 1: like they're all of the resources are in the hands
Speaker 1: of big studios, like, right, what the funk are you
Speaker 1: gonna do? And it it's I don't know it. Have
Speaker 1: either of you ever seen SLC Punk? I have not
Speaker 1: know I have. I've seen it many times. Do you
Speaker 1: like it? Um? I liked it when I was in
Speaker 1: high school. I rewatched it maybe two years ago. I
Speaker 1: actually think about it. I like not to kind of
Speaker 1: spoil the ending. I don't know if you'll have like
Speaker 1: a philosop I was. I wanted to talk about the
Speaker 1: ending to SELC Punk because I think I like it better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the the ending is great because it's like, oh, this
Speaker 1: whole time, all of that ideology was BS and you
Speaker 1: sold that in the end and turns out you just
Speaker 1: like we're a poser like everybody else, and that's fine.
Speaker 1: It's called growing up. The end, like, I kind of
Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, like so, I the only time I've
Speaker 1: seen Slski punk I was on Molly Nights, but I
Speaker 1: really loved him. But but the ending, in spite of
Speaker 1: me being high out of my mind, the ending really
Speaker 1: stuck with me as one of the more like, you know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good to watch, but it is an
Speaker 1: honest depiction of like. And also it's a Matthew Willard
Speaker 1: joint Caitlin, Oh, I I've unfamiliar. I just have yet
Speaker 1: to succeeded. And unlike Reality Bites, it's a true indie movie.
Speaker 1: It made like two dollars and it like premiered at
Speaker 1: Sundance And but but yeah, like the the way, I
Speaker 1: was sort of wondering if Reality Bites would take that
Speaker 1: sort of option where it's like, you know, it seems
Speaker 1: inevitable that this grew at least you know, two or
Speaker 1: three out of the four are gonna end up selling
Speaker 1: out in the way that adults are forced to under
Speaker 1: capitalism more often than not. But I was wondering how
Speaker 1: self aware it's like that it didn't do it in
Speaker 1: a very self aware because even in the like the
Speaker 1: closing line of the movie, Laney is like, it's acknowledging
Speaker 1: that Laney has used her privilege to get to where
Speaker 1: she's at with Troy, because it's her doubt on the
Speaker 1: phone who you know, like all four boomer criticism of
Speaker 1: like look at this, you know how they opened the
Speaker 1: movie with like your revolution, you know, you traded your
Speaker 1: revolution for shoulder pads. Fair, fair criticism. But it's like
Speaker 1: our characters are well on their way to doing the
Speaker 1: same fucking thing by the end of the movie, but
Speaker 1: it's not quite willing to like go there and admit
Speaker 1: it in a way that s LC punk was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: little or to suit Now he's uh, he just got
Speaker 1: to the law school. He went to law school. He
Speaker 1: went to play shaggy. He's a corporate stooge. I mean,
Speaker 1: Lillard's taking that Scooby Money can't even blame. It's funny,
Speaker 1: like we're like, okay, so in the universe of the film, nobody,
Speaker 1: only certain people are allowed to sell out if if
Speaker 1: the clock spins five years later, like are we to
Speaker 1: believe that Troy is still under employed and like blowing
Speaker 1: off job interviews and sort of intentionally getting fired. And
Speaker 1: Lena is like, certainly they would have, like you would
Speaker 1: have to get a job at some point, Like that's
Speaker 1: life and life is unsustainable otherwise. Right, It's like he's
Speaker 1: not gonna If there's one person who's not going to
Speaker 1: singlehandedly dismantle American capitalism, it's Troy for Reality bite like
Speaker 1: he's gonna have to do something at some point. And
Speaker 1: I feel like such a like a mom saying that,
Speaker 1: where I'm like, get your life together, young man. But
Speaker 1: you know what I do starts a podcast. No, he
Speaker 1: starts a podcast and we're a part of the problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you think Troy from Reality, but it's wouldn't be fucking
Speaker 1: podcast two he's got. He's probably got two podcasts he has.
Speaker 1: Oh you know who he is. I know exactly who
Speaker 1: he is. He is like the leftist podcaster who was
Speaker 1: all like, oh, like class solidarity but makes three dollars
Speaker 1: a year via Patreon, but you would never know it
Speaker 1: because he talks about like class workfare every week in
Speaker 1: the podcast. That's who he never volunteered a weaken his life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely no. No. Oh, look, we're all a bunch of
Speaker 1: fucking sellouts. We're a feminist podcast on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio network. At the end of the day, if it's like, well, shit, fuck,
Speaker 1: we're the end of SLC punk. Um, okay, yeah, does
Speaker 1: anyone have anything else they want to talk about? It's
Speaker 1: everything ahead that might have been it. Yeah, the same.
Speaker 1: Does this movie pass the Bechtel test? It does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: We've got We've got some conversations, We've got some various combinations.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of Lelaney and Vicky I think is
Speaker 1: most of the Bechtel test passing convos. But what about
Speaker 1: that nipple scale, the famous flawless nipple scale where we
Speaker 1: write the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples.
Speaker 1: Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's maybe like a two or a
Speaker 1: two and a half, just one of those kind of
Speaker 1: split down the middle ones, or maybe it's less than that.
Speaker 1: Let me talk through this. Um. I appreciate that this
Speaker 1: is a movie, like written by a woman writing about
Speaker 1: her own experiences. It's coming from a pretty privileged place
Speaker 1: because at least the characters it's like, yeah, they're broke,
Speaker 1: but they're broke in the way that white college graduates
Speaker 1: from supportive middle class families working entry level jobs are
Speaker 1: broke broke, not poor. Right, So it just feels gross
Speaker 1: to make a movie where things like money and labor
Speaker 1: and socioeconomic class are major themes of the movie, but
Speaker 1: the movie only features educated, middle class white people. UM.
Speaker 1: I do not like that the movie is predicated on
Speaker 1: which of these two guys is she going to choose
Speaker 1: because she has to pick one because hetero romance must prevail,
Speaker 1: and then she picks the guy who has been actively
Speaker 1: cruel to her throughout the entire movie. I hate that
Speaker 1: for her. Um. There are some things I do like. Um,
Speaker 1: there's some interesting satire. There is a queer character whose
Speaker 1: queerness is normalized within the story, even though that character
Speaker 1: gets the least amount of screen time in this version
Speaker 1: of the story at least. Um, But it's you know,
Speaker 1: queer representation that was I would say, generally more positive
Speaker 1: than you would tend to find in this era. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, as I think I like Trailed Off, But
Speaker 1: it's a a woman writing this screenplay about her life,
Speaker 1: about her experiences and her relationships. It seems like it
Speaker 1: got studio notes to death almost uh seventy different drafts
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But um, I don't know, it's just
Speaker 1: have I come to any conclusion. No, I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: it two nipples. I'll give one to one on a
Speaker 1: writer because I do love Oneona, and I'll give the
Speaker 1: other nipple to screenwriter Helen child Dress, who again has
Speaker 1: been kind of like left out of the conversation about
Speaker 1: this movie and like isn't given credit where credit is due. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there you have it. I'm gonna go two and
Speaker 1: a half on this one. Maybe maybe I'm talented to
Speaker 1: do three, but I I the the centering of the
Speaker 1: relationship is just like so frustrating that I guess I'm
Speaker 1: going to do too and a half. Um again, yes,
Speaker 1: like this is yet another you know, quote on quote
Speaker 1: generation to finding movie that solely focuses on you know,
Speaker 1: middle class uh six white people. I do appreciate that
Speaker 1: there is some different class backgrounds and discussion of class.
Speaker 1: I feel like most movies like this, just like or
Speaker 1: most you know, coming of age movies, class exists in
Speaker 1: a complete and total void. So at least then that's
Speaker 1: not the case. Um, this movie asks a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting questions. I think that, you know, the answers are
Speaker 1: really complicated because we also like our generation is not
Speaker 1: going to have the answers and uh, you know gen
Speaker 1: Z best of luck, but and then there's no more generations.
Speaker 1: Uh So Ultimately, yeah, I think that this movie asks
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting questions. It challenged me in some ways,
Speaker 1: it frustrated me and others, and uh it made me
Speaker 1: want to rewatch SLC Punk um. But I do appreciate
Speaker 1: that this movie, um is you know, written by a
Speaker 1: woman who has lived out a similar experience. Um. I
Speaker 1: think that her career since is very indicative of how disposable, um,
Speaker 1: women creatives can be in Hollywood, especially during this era.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that there has been some motion against that
Speaker 1: since it doesn't seem to be something that happens quite
Speaker 1: as much, and that there are a lot of women
Speaker 1: in high positions in this production. You have a woman
Speaker 1: editor of a woman writer, you have a woman producer.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know if this this Honestly, this
Speaker 1: movie is like challenging for for me, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: being an adult sellout is fucking embarrassing and it's also
Speaker 1: unfortunately kind of a part of being an American and
Speaker 1: it Uh I guess that that's all I have to
Speaker 1: say about it. Uh yeah, So I'll go two and
Speaker 1: a half and I'm giving them all to Helen because, um,
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous that justice for Helen event Stiller is getting
Speaker 1: credit for ship shoot it. Yeah yeah, bridget Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: going First of all, I love that we're just explicitly
Speaker 1: identify playing as adults sellouts, and this feminist adults sell
Speaker 1: out is going two and a half nipples, and I
Speaker 1: completely agree, mostly for Helen children. It's like justice for her.
Speaker 1: I had no idea about the ways that she was
Speaker 1: sort of written out of her own experience, and that
Speaker 1: just sucks that this is a movie about her life
Speaker 1: that is so accredited to Ben Stiller, a man, that
Speaker 1: she just gets written out of it. Like I was
Speaker 1: googling pictures, it was difficult to even find pictures of
Speaker 1: her with the cast, and like, this was her story,
Speaker 1: So most of those nipples are going to her. Also,
Speaker 1: Jeanine Garoffalo, I have a soft spot for je Garoffalo
Speaker 1: supporting casting. Yeah, in this movie, I once loved it
Speaker 1: as a youth, watching it as an adult, it's I agree,
Speaker 1: it's challenging, but yeah, I I like a movie that
Speaker 1: makes it attempt to show queerness in the nineties in
Speaker 1: a way that it's not so traumatic and Steve Zon
Speaker 1: doesn't die or something like I Think for the time,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go too and a a half of fair. Yeah, Bridget,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for returning.
Speaker 1: Come back any time. Oh it's always a blast. Anytime
Speaker 1: you're you're about to get sick of me? Impossible, can't happen,
Speaker 1: won't happen? Tell us all about your your new show
Speaker 1: on cool Zone. Oh yes. So Internet Hate Machine is
Speaker 1: an exploration of kind of an unpleasant topic, which is
Speaker 1: the online harassment of women, specifically black women, but women
Speaker 1: of color in general, and how I believe that is
Speaker 1: connected to our current sort of political and social healthscape.
Speaker 1: I guess I'll say, uh, and so yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: but it's I swear it's not dark. It's not a
Speaker 1: start of it sounds, but yeah, it's an exploration of
Speaker 1: the ways that all of these things online, the way
Speaker 1: that black women have been treated, have gotten us to
Speaker 1: a place where those same tactics and those same ills
Speaker 1: impact all of us and really make it hard for
Speaker 1: us to have a functioning democracy. So if that sounds
Speaker 1: like something that you're interested in exploring, please check it out.
Speaker 1: The new season or the first season drops October. So excited,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for coming back. We'll
Speaker 1: be we'll be plugging the hill out of the show
Speaker 1: and anything else you want to plug. As far as
Speaker 1: your social media handles, yeah, you can follow me on
Speaker 1: Instagram at bridget Marie in d C or on Twitter
Speaker 1: at bridget Marie. And I have my own long running,
Speaker 1: long running two years podcast, podcast World. I'm I'm proudly
Speaker 1: claiming that's a long time. Two years. That's a long
Speaker 1: time called there are No Girls on the Internet. Please
Speaker 1: check it out amazing and you can follow us on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: our Matreon at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast. It
Speaker 1: is five dollars a month and it gets you to
Speaker 1: bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog of
Speaker 1: bonus episodes. You can also get our merch at t
Speaker 1: public dot com slash the backtel Pass. This is such
Speaker 1: a funny way to end the episode after reality bites
Speaker 1: or like in conclusion, capitalism our exclusion. Give us five
Speaker 1: dollars a month and support us on Hellscape social media
Speaker 1: platforms that are actively running the world. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: or we can just go fund ourselves whatever you want. Uh.
Speaker 1: On that note, let's go watch Fraser's dad's TV show. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I would watch it if I had pneumonia. Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: let's do it. Okay, Bye,