WEBVTT - 8. Three Freds 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:29.476 Pushkin, a Malibu dad who killed his wife and her 0:00:29.516 --> 0:00:33.876 young child out of greed. It sure looked that way 0:00:33.876 --> 0:00:38.036 to stand Rodin, the Santa Barbara District attorney. This is 0:00:38.116 --> 0:00:41.196 Dempsey Billy, a DA's investigator who worked on the case. 0:00:42.356 --> 0:00:47.716 I think we had five or six or seven criminal investigators, 0:00:48.276 --> 0:00:53.756 and then about probably about twelve deputy district attorneys, and 0:00:53.876 --> 0:00:57.356 so the round table to see if the district attorneys 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:01.076 I should file that case. When the facts of Fred's 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:07.716 case were presented, there were crickets. Nobody really wanted the case. 0:01:07.756 --> 0:01:11.236 They didn't think it wasn't think there's enough evidence there 0:01:11.316 --> 0:01:17.116 to hues Fred Railer. And then Stan Rowdin so very 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:19.956 strongly about it and took it and ran with it. 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:24.356 Stan Rodin was the elected official, the boss, and he 0:01:24.436 --> 0:01:27.956 wanted to argue the case himself. He was determined to 0:01:27.996 --> 0:01:31.556 bring Fred Rayler to justice. He is the one, I'll 0:01:31.556 --> 0:01:35.156 say it myself. He put the full weight of his 0:01:35.236 --> 0:01:42.076 office behind the effort. Law enforcement was investigating five deaths 0:01:42.076 --> 0:01:47.356 with possible connections to Fred. Verna Doug, the navy diver 0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:51.156 who had drowned while using Fred's scuba equipment, and also 0:01:51.676 --> 0:01:57.076 Verna's first husband, Bill and Fred's first wife, Jean. The 0:01:57.156 --> 0:02:00.636 Santa Barbara detectives Fred Ray and Claude Tuller had turned 0:02:00.716 --> 0:02:03.796 up a ton of dirt on Fred. For every person 0:02:03.836 --> 0:02:07.396 in Malibu who admired him, it seemed another one thought 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.916 he was a creep. He was cold, he was harsh, 0:02:10.956 --> 0:02:14.436 he was weird, he was kind, he was true. You 0:02:14.436 --> 0:02:17.916 could trust him with your life. Fred hired a high 0:02:17.916 --> 0:02:20.836 powered defense attorney and engaged a team of private eyes. 0:02:21.596 --> 0:02:26.076 They started reinterviewing the detective sources, all those Malibu people 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:28.556 who had talked to Ray and Tuller and told the 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:32.676 tales the detectives wove into that scandalous fifty four page affidavit. 0:02:33.556 --> 0:02:37.756 But when Fred's investigators fanned out over Malibu, they heard 0:02:37.796 --> 0:02:42.756 a very different story. Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom, had 0:02:42.756 --> 0:02:45.196 talked to detectives back in March of nineteen eighty one 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:49.836 before Fred's arrest. In the affidavit, Detective Tuller wrote that 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:54.396 she quote described Fred as being strange, stormy, and rigid. 0:02:55.396 --> 0:02:58.836 He also wrote, citing Kathy, the second marriage was not 0:02:58.876 --> 0:03:02.436 as happy as Verno's first marriage with Bill. She described 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:06.636 Bill as being gentle and Fred as not gentle, and 0:03:06.916 --> 0:03:11.236 he wrote again, supposedly based on the commentary, Doug was 0:03:11.276 --> 0:03:15.556 afraid of Fred. But two months later, when one of 0:03:15.596 --> 0:03:18.876 Fred's investigators went to talk to Kathy, she was appalled 0:03:19.556 --> 0:03:27.436 the detectives had taken her words and twisted them. I mean, 0:03:27.436 --> 0:03:29.396 I can tell right off about this is not quite 0:03:29.396 --> 0:03:34.156 an accurate Okay, why don't you consider accurate? Well, let 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:39.796 me go back to the beginning, where it said Vernon 0:03:39.876 --> 0:03:43.076 had problems with his second marriage. Second marriage was not 0:03:43.116 --> 0:03:45.276 as happy as Vernon's first marriage was. Bill, I don't 0:03:45.316 --> 0:03:47.796 know that, and I didn't say that. This kind of 0:03:47.796 --> 0:03:49.956 elaborates on what I might have said, you know, when 0:03:50.036 --> 0:03:56.196 I didn't hear the say more strongly than exactly. Um, 0:03:56.276 --> 0:04:00.796 where it talked about described Fred as being strange, stormy 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:05.316 and rigid. Yes, I think his um his way of dealing. 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:07.796 Maybe the discipline was rigid, but a lot of that 0:04:08.076 --> 0:04:11.236 is what I had heard. You know, I did not 0:04:11.316 --> 0:04:19.116 witness him beating up his children. No, Um, let me 0:04:19.156 --> 0:04:22.156 go on here described as Bill as being very gentle 0:04:22.236 --> 0:04:25.356 and Fred as not gentle. I don't really know if 0:04:25.356 --> 0:04:28.516 he's not gentle. So you did not say that, No, 0:04:30.036 --> 0:04:33.276 that Kred was not gentle, I just exactly what I'm 0:04:33.356 --> 0:04:35.836 here for. Just go on making comments like you are 0:04:35.836 --> 0:04:39.196 as you're And I never said that Doug was afraid 0:04:39.196 --> 0:04:42.956 of Fred, because I never witnessed that Fred had some 0:04:42.996 --> 0:04:47.116 detractors in Malibu. She wasn't a fan, but had that 0:04:47.276 --> 0:04:50.036 somehow been turned into a criminal complaint against the guy, 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:52.716 you know, And I don't know if some of these 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:57.516 people haven't asked to grind, you know, human nature. I mean, wow, 0:04:57.556 --> 0:05:01.996 a great scandal, you know, go with it. By the 0:05:02.076 --> 0:05:06.436 end of her conversation with the investigator, Kathy Pulis was angry, 0:05:06.876 --> 0:05:09.956 and I've offended that, you know, Natona did all insinuating 0:05:09.996 --> 0:05:13.156 here too make a case better or whatever. So no, 0:05:13.276 --> 0:05:16.316 I would say that this no, always, you would not testify. 0:05:16.716 --> 0:05:22.036 I would not testify Santa Barbara. Detective Fred Ray didn't 0:05:22.076 --> 0:05:25.076 respond to my interview request, and Claude Teller has died. 0:05:25.676 --> 0:05:28.956 But they left a very long paper trail to build 0:05:28.956 --> 0:05:31.276 their case against Fred. They had to deal with an 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:35.356 inconvenient reality. There was just not a lot of physical evidence, 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:38.916 so they'd gotten creative and poked around the tight knit 0:05:38.956 --> 0:05:44.156 community of Malibu for clues. That was a gold mine. 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:48.316 Everyone knew something or had heard it third hand from 0:05:48.316 --> 0:05:51.836 someone else. So the detectives gathered a lot of juicy 0:05:51.916 --> 0:05:57.716 stories that presented Fred's defense team with a challenge. This 0:05:57.796 --> 0:05:59.596 is how one of the private detectives put it to 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:03.116 him back in the spring of nineteen eighty one. Somewhere 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:05.236 along the lines, It's been said that there are three 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:08.316 Fred Rays. One is the one you think of yourself as, 0:06:09.116 --> 0:06:11.236 the other one is the one that people perceive you as, 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:12.676 and the third one the one that you really are. 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:21.116 So who was the real Fred Railer? I'm Dana Goodyear 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:56.836 and this is Lost Hills episode eight three. Fred's Fred 0:06:56.916 --> 0:06:59.356 needed to prove that the Santa Barbara detectives had it 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:03.276 all wrong. They had him all wrong. He was a 0:07:03.316 --> 0:07:05.876 good guy, and he set about trying to prove it 0:07:06.156 --> 0:07:09.676 from his jail cell in Santa Barbara. Of mine for 0:07:09.716 --> 0:07:13.396 Fred beating back the image of him created by detectives 0:07:13.476 --> 0:07:16.916 Ray and Tuller in the affidavit. Here he is talking 0:07:16.956 --> 0:07:21.916 to the private eye. When I received the company of 0:07:22.076 --> 0:07:29.876 the affidavit fifty four page, I sat down and responded 0:07:29.916 --> 0:07:38.556 to Yip page by page. After I did that, I 0:07:38.636 --> 0:07:43.236 went back and I wrote, probably at least one to 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:48.956 two tablets, legal tablets. Just what we're going to be 0:07:49.036 --> 0:07:52.316 talking about right again, They went through a list of 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:55.556 all the people Fred knew in Malibu, but not just that. 0:07:55.996 --> 0:08:01.596 They talked about his family, Verna's family, Jean's family. According 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:05.876 to Fred, Verna's family and Jean's parents were totally supportive 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:10.676 of him. There's a good dialogue and good communication there 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:16.636 as close to me really as my parents came. It's 0:08:16.676 --> 0:08:19.076 a unique situation that's, you know, that's going to be 0:08:19.276 --> 0:08:21.996 a strength as far as you're you know, to put 0:08:21.996 --> 0:08:25.916 it in a very pragmatic term, these people are going 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:31.556 to be your best characterizes. It was important the investigator 0:08:31.636 --> 0:08:35.356 said that the persona Fred presented to the jury be credible. 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:38.956 If there was a bad Fred, he needed to know 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:41.756 about that too. See, we don't want to characterize you 0:08:41.756 --> 0:08:44.076 as any kind of a saint. Okay, you're a human. 0:08:44.236 --> 0:08:46.436 You've got your strengths, you've got your witnesses as you've 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:49.916 got the things that people know about you. And if 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:52.516 we can get some kind of a composite then we 0:08:52.596 --> 0:08:56.276 can present you to a jury in a way that 0:08:56.316 --> 0:08:58.276 the jury's gonna say, hey, you know, here, we are 0:08:59.436 --> 0:09:02.316 one person who knew him well, and who Fred felt 0:09:02.356 --> 0:09:06.756 sure would vouch for him was his psychiatrist, doctor Paul Remis. 0:09:07.836 --> 0:09:19.996 Are he am I Even Tarzana law enforcement had run 0:09:20.036 --> 0:09:23.716 into a contradiction in Fred's persona in the stories various 0:09:23.716 --> 0:09:27.596 witnesses told about him, the man who lived for his 0:09:27.716 --> 0:09:32.076 family versus the man who would brutally kill them. If 0:09:32.076 --> 0:09:35.436 Fred was capable of the cold murders the DA suspected 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.796 him of, surely doctor Remus would have seen the signs. 0:09:40.556 --> 0:10:20.276 He'd know if Fred was faking right. Fred's private investigator 0:10:20.316 --> 0:10:23.836 went to interview doctor Remus, the psychiatrist Fred had consulted 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:28.076 after Jean died and again after Vernon died. The investigator 0:10:28.116 --> 0:10:31.036 wanted to know how Fred had presented himself in therapy, 0:10:31.516 --> 0:10:36.796 if his grief had seemed authentic. Here's doctor Remus. The 0:10:36.836 --> 0:10:40.676 first time that I saw Fred, and he talked about 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:43.796 the fact that his first wife had died. It was 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:48.716 an accidental drowning. I think he brought me the anthology report, 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:54.876 talked about looking into how it happened, the cause of it. 0:10:55.876 --> 0:11:00.636 He was concerned and upset about it, but he didn't cry. 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:05.276 Doctor Remus said he wasn't surprised by Fred's lack of 0:11:05.276 --> 0:11:09.396 emotion to him. It didn't indicate that Fred had killed Jean, 0:11:10.036 --> 0:11:14.196 just that he didn't really like her. This was totally 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:18.036 in keeping with his feeling about Jean, that they really 0:11:18.076 --> 0:11:23.436 weren't getting along too well. And he is by nature 0:11:24.076 --> 0:11:26.836 as a fellow who holds his feelings in, tries to 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:31.836 intellectualize a lot, uses words in him, part data and facts, 0:11:32.396 --> 0:11:36.436 doesn't get into his feelings very easily at all, So 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:39.236 that the fact that he didn't cry but he looked 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:42.916 upset was acceptable to me. I mean, have any question 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:47.716 second time, but when Verna died, Fred's behavior was markedly 0:11:47.756 --> 0:11:52.156 different this time. When I saw him with Verna, the 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:57.596 very first thing he said for sentences soon was my 0:11:57.636 --> 0:12:01.556 wife is dandy, and he looked at me he broke 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:08.476 into tears, strangely to remiss. This was real sorrow, an unfathable, 0:12:08.596 --> 0:12:19.236 authentic emotion. That was very significant to me because this 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:22.076 is a guy who tries to use intellectual defenses all 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:25.396 the time, and here I don't believe he could have 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:28.076 faked it. But I didn't have that feeling that there 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:32.556 was a manipulation of my feelings at all. The actions 0:12:32.556 --> 0:12:37.556 spoke for themselves. He was moved to the point of reacting. 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:41.316 Nature of the relationship with Burnam was entirely different than 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:46.756 his relationship with a Gene that changed his life. And 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.796 I think that that's enormously significant. You see, here we 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:54.356 have a guy, Verna, doctor Rima said, pushed Fred in 0:12:54.396 --> 0:13:03.916 a good way. She demanded that he experienced life, and 0:13:04.076 --> 0:13:06.796 his connection to her was entirely different than his connection 0:13:06.836 --> 0:13:11.276 to Gene. To get on with to you know, be 0:13:11.356 --> 0:13:14.436 in love with Verna meant you had to get into yourself. 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:16.436 You had to do so. She meditated, she was on 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:20.796 nutrition therapy, she started jogging. She you know, she lived, 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:25.996 and she was his life. In fact, just showed him 0:13:25.996 --> 0:13:28.836 the way that life could be. You know, I don't know. 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:31.316 You know this is not to say Nate comments as 0:13:31.316 --> 0:13:32.836 well he would want to get rid of Gene. I'm 0:13:32.836 --> 0:13:35.756 not saying that. I'm saying Verna meant to him something 0:13:35.836 --> 0:13:42.476 that money couldn't buy. His phrasing is arresting. Verna meant 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:47.556 something money couldn't buy. Verna and he fit together, both 0:13:47.556 --> 0:13:49.396 of them having lost a partner and both of them 0:13:49.476 --> 0:13:54.236 having children, and she essentially knowing how to take children 0:13:54.276 --> 0:13:58.356 a lot better than he did. It was a functional 0:13:58.396 --> 0:14:02.516 thing for the boat, he thought. Verna had also helped 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:06.676 Fred process Jean's death. Things between Fred and Jean were 0:14:06.716 --> 0:14:10.516 so acrimonious at the end. Gene death was especially hard 0:14:10.556 --> 0:14:13.996 for Fred, we MIAs said, because deep down he kind 0:14:13.996 --> 0:14:17.636 of wanted her to go away. You know, his worst fear, 0:14:17.756 --> 0:14:21.996 which is to to have your thought played out in action. 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:24.236 You know, you can hate somebody because you find them. Dad, 0:14:24.276 --> 0:14:25.996 it's your worst fear. You know, you wouldn't want that 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:30.556 to happen. And so he was blown away. That's where 0:14:30.636 --> 0:14:34.556 Verne came in. She was a religious person, okay, and 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:40.316 he wasn't. She you know, grounded him. She really gave 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:47.156 him some kind of a basis for understanding, Yeah, an 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:54.356 emotional basis sense. He understands things very well intellectually. Oh, 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:57.116 I know, he's heard right, fell that's right her. But emotionally, 0:14:58.076 --> 0:15:01.916 it's difficult for him to sometimes get into into his feelings. 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:07.476 He's not really had a lot of experience in communicating 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:12.276 feeling to other people about how he feels inside. Difficult 0:15:12.316 --> 0:15:16.756 for him to express his emotions in the fields. I'd 0:15:16.796 --> 0:15:19.596 go farther than that, I'd say that often people like 0:15:19.716 --> 0:15:23.316 Fred can express themselves pretty well, but deep inside they 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:28.316 know they're holding out. They're not really wide open vulnerable. 0:15:28.356 --> 0:15:35.356 As the work difficult to be vulderble he was vulnerable 0:15:35.396 --> 0:15:39.156 when he came into the office the second time. Medical 0:15:39.196 --> 0:15:42.196 professionals who saw Fred right after the drownings told the 0:15:42.236 --> 0:15:46.276 detectives about odd behavior they'd observed. Fred's vital signs were 0:15:46.356 --> 0:15:49.316 normal and he had no obvious injuries, but he was 0:15:49.356 --> 0:15:52.556 acting really out of it, seemingly drifting in and out 0:15:52.556 --> 0:15:56.636 of consciousness and refusing to answer questions. They had suggested 0:15:56.676 --> 0:16:02.476 to the detectives Fred might have been faking. The investigator 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:05.836 wanted to know if Fred knew enough about psychology about 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:08.436 what was expected of him to be able to act 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:13.316 shocked and horrified when Verna and dug died. The answer 0:16:13.396 --> 0:16:17.316 is yes, but balance it against other things. Again, the 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:21.236 odds are point one percent that he you know, he's 0:16:21.796 --> 0:16:23.996 you know, he psyched out the whole thing, figured out, 0:16:24.356 --> 0:16:26.636 you know, how to react, and there's nothing in his 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:32.076 past that suggests that there's just that kind of psychopathology 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:35.596 that makes good TV story, you know, where the criminal 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:39.956 is so clever that he fools everybody. I believe you 0:16:39.956 --> 0:16:44.076 to do that in real life, Remas said, Fred's love 0:16:44.156 --> 0:16:47.236 for Verna was genuine, and so was his investment in 0:16:47.316 --> 0:16:50.956 his children. He didn't think the family Man persona was 0:16:50.956 --> 0:16:53.996 an act, and he definitely didn't think Fred was smart 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:58.436 enough to Jedi mind trick him. But mostly he approached 0:16:58.476 --> 0:17:04.796 the problem practically. Besides loving Verna, Fred needed her, so 0:17:04.836 --> 0:17:15.236 why would he kill her? Law enforcement was theorizing that 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:18.956 Fred needed money more than he needed Verna, that he 0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:21.756 was driven to kill in order to collect insurance money. 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:25.356 Looking at his finances, it's hard to see a different 0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:29.036 source of income. He needed a change of fortune if 0:17:29.076 --> 0:17:31.636 he was going to keep living the dream in Malibu. 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:36.076 But law enforcement didn't necessarily understand the real estate market 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:40.796 in coastal southern California. Here's Fred talking to one of 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:44.036 the private investigators he hired, explaining how he got into 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:46.876 the housing game. He started with a place in a 0:17:46.956 --> 0:17:51.316 Silver Strand neighborhood in Oxnard. We paid some enormous amount 0:17:51.356 --> 0:17:54.636 of money, like eighteen thousand dollars for his house Silver 0:17:54.756 --> 0:17:59.836 Strand in nine two. Yeah, and we still have with 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:05.196 this day. He's still on the household. Ye, it's worth 0:18:05.236 --> 0:18:08.596 a little more praised at one hundred and five or 0:18:08.636 --> 0:18:14.236 something as business. Fred's friend Mike Kelleen told that same 0:18:14.276 --> 0:18:17.756 investigator that Fred's instincts for real estate were the key 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:22.436 to his financial solvency. Oh, I can tell you story. 0:18:22.516 --> 0:18:25.476 It's really easy because you remember what happened between like 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:29.636 seventy and seventy six and seventy seven. Things were crazy. 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:33.476 It was a story that hinged on the massive inflation 0:18:33.556 --> 0:18:36.996 of home values in the region. When Fred and Jean 0:18:37.116 --> 0:18:40.396 moved back from Berkeley, they purchased a house on Califine. 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:43.476 My recollection is that they paid somewhere in the fifty 0:18:43.516 --> 0:18:46.316 to sixty thousand dollars as for that house. I don't 0:18:46.316 --> 0:18:49.356 know how creative he was in financing, but again, the 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:52.236 guy doesn't have to be wealthy to put that together, 0:18:52.916 --> 0:18:57.636 and he put it together. He had income property in Oxnard, 0:18:57.676 --> 0:19:01.076 he had income property Amalivie and Berna had some income 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:07.476 property am And with that going on, that's how I 0:19:07.516 --> 0:19:09.636 suppose he would pay his mortgage. And as far as 0:19:09.716 --> 0:19:12.196 I knew, he probably had some resources to draw from 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:15.716 a little bit of savings. Was Britain all consumed with 0:19:15.876 --> 0:19:18.996 making the almighty dog. The man has the soul of 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:22.876 a part of a grating business learning check who thinks 0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:25.396 that the dollar is the most important thing. But he's 0:19:25.436 --> 0:19:28.756 not not a stupid man. He certainly realized the value 0:19:28.796 --> 0:19:35.636 of his prudent investment. Certain No, Mike's point. Fred might 0:19:35.756 --> 0:19:39.636 look over extended to the investigators, but all these properties 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:44.196 were working for him, making him money, and home values 0:19:44.276 --> 0:20:01.356 were surging. For months, Fred sat in a jail cell 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:04.996 in Santa Barbara. He made a lot of notes, long 0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:07.436 lists of things for his defense team to do in 0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:10.996 passion for rebuttals of the witness statements against him, Lists 0:20:10.996 --> 0:20:13.756 of reasons why the accusations were so bone headed in 0:20:13.796 --> 0:20:18.956 the first place. Law enforcement was overreaching, out of control, 0:20:19.596 --> 0:20:23.596 quote bad news, coaching investigation targets, and putting words in 0:20:23.636 --> 0:20:27.836 their mouth a no, no, unquote. One list he made 0:20:27.876 --> 0:20:31.796 was titled why not. At Santa Cruz Island, January second, 0:20:31.956 --> 0:20:36.116 nineteen eighty one, there were thirty eight numbered reasons why not. 0:20:37.676 --> 0:20:40.436 Number six could have waited till we were in Mexico 0:20:40.556 --> 0:20:44.916 and had them done in by bandits. Number twelve would 0:20:44.916 --> 0:20:48.996 have picked a boat that sank. Number fourteen would have 0:20:49.036 --> 0:20:51.556 beat them up on rocks to mask anything. I would 0:20:51.556 --> 0:20:55.276 have done Number fifteen could have cut them and had 0:20:55.316 --> 0:20:59.516 sharks in ten minutes. Number sixteen could have had them 0:20:59.596 --> 0:21:02.636 done in on a secluded part of Malibu Beach, could 0:21:02.636 --> 0:21:07.156 have been jumped by dopers. Or number seventeen could have 0:21:07.156 --> 0:21:10.796 had them kidnapped. Number eighteen, why would I want to 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:14.636 ruin a dream boat trip? Could have waited till everyone 0:21:14.676 --> 0:21:17.236 wanted to go home or I was ready to go home. 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:22.116 Fred wasn't the only one strategizing. He had a robust 0:21:22.156 --> 0:21:25.836 defense team led by a high powered defense attorney. A 0:21:25.876 --> 0:21:27.836 few of his friends from Malibu and one of his 0:21:27.956 --> 0:21:32.116 brothers were also helping, and so was Fred's friend Bill Fairfield, 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:34.356 the lawyer who was part of all those hot tub 0:21:34.356 --> 0:21:37.236 parties back in the gene era, who'd advised him in 0:21:37.356 --> 0:21:41.116 Verna on estate planning and set up the trust. Here 0:21:41.116 --> 0:21:44.796 they are troubleshooting Fred's defense, addressing the things that made 0:21:44.876 --> 0:21:49.396 him seem guilty, the awkward facts they were going to 0:21:49.476 --> 0:21:56.076 have to work around, and our purpose in being congregated 0:21:56.116 --> 0:22:02.476 here this morning is to discuss some ideas and hopefully 0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:06.516 bring out some suggestions that may be of benefit to 0:22:07.156 --> 0:22:14.716 Fred's defense in connection with the upcoming trial. Awkward fact 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:20.116 number one, Verna and Doug could swim. One of the 0:22:20.196 --> 0:22:25.036 things that certainly has come to my mind and that 0:22:25.116 --> 0:22:28.876 has certainly become a major issue, is the swimming ability 0:22:28.956 --> 0:22:35.156 of both Doug and Verna. Have any of you experienced 0:22:35.516 --> 0:22:38.196 or a visualized Doug in any type of panic situation 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:43.916 before he was a hyper kid. Wasn't he high stroke 0:22:44.996 --> 0:22:49.756 which with spetual motion, which would indicate to me, whether 0:22:49.876 --> 0:22:51.236 ties or not, I don't know, but it would indicate 0:22:51.236 --> 0:22:53.236 to me that under a situation of panic, you would 0:22:53.236 --> 0:22:58.676 tend to react. Now, but a lot of kids would. 0:22:58.716 --> 0:23:00.756 I mean, my kid two days ago got turned over 0:23:00.836 --> 0:23:02.396 by a wave and was in a terrible shape. You 0:23:02.396 --> 0:23:03.916 know this was this was three feet from me and 0:23:04.036 --> 0:23:07.756 was in a panic. You know so. But if your 0:23:07.796 --> 0:23:12.036 kid is just the average kid in terms of energy, 0:23:12.916 --> 0:23:15.916 perfectual emotion of dog, maybe Doug would react even yes, 0:23:16.716 --> 0:23:19.396 crash about even a bit more, which again is why 0:23:19.436 --> 0:23:23.396 I wonder about that. I mean, you can come up 0:23:23.396 --> 0:23:26.236 with ten, twelve, twenty ways. Perhaps the dog could have 0:23:26.236 --> 0:23:29.836 been hit in the hand, the oar, the camera action 0:23:30.236 --> 0:23:33.076 Fred falling over as they're all falling out of the boat, 0:23:33.076 --> 0:23:36.476 and Burnham grabbing something, and maybe that something was dug 0:23:36.596 --> 0:23:41.916 and push Doug down into the boats. Awkward. Fact number two. 0:23:42.796 --> 0:23:48.036 Fred could really swim, you know, to the mecca Vellian mind. 0:23:48.716 --> 0:23:51.316 Here as a man who is more expert in the 0:23:51.356 --> 0:23:56.556 water than nine of the population, so he knows exactly. 0:23:56.876 --> 0:23:58.876 I mean, he is in his element when he's in 0:23:58.916 --> 0:24:03.396 the water. So therefore he knows what to do to 0:24:04.436 --> 0:24:08.356 I mean, if he wants interpret in calculating fashion, riot 0:24:08.516 --> 0:24:11.676 to do that, he knows what to do. And this 0:24:11.756 --> 0:24:15.676 could rebound badly against him as a possibility I can 0:24:15.756 --> 0:24:18.276 be used in Romans show. That's why Freend survived. Here 0:24:18.316 --> 0:24:21.156 was no water along damn time. Okay he was. He 0:24:21.236 --> 0:24:23.956 swammed those people along ways, and that's I don't like 0:24:24.036 --> 0:24:25.756 to him about it. You know, I think I'd have 0:24:25.836 --> 0:24:28.036 bought it well long before he was in the water, 0:24:28.116 --> 0:24:29.556 up to least an hour as far as we can 0:24:29.556 --> 0:24:31.476 tell them, maybe an hour and a half. So I mean, 0:24:31.516 --> 0:24:33.276 I think you know you can you can use it 0:24:33.556 --> 0:24:36.036 to cut both words. Let's to consume. Let me let 0:24:36.076 --> 0:24:40.316 me awkward Fact number three, Lady eat the dog. He 0:24:40.396 --> 0:24:43.876 was able to save his dog, wasn't he The dog 0:24:42.436 --> 0:24:48.556 was okay? Well, okay, but the rock wall is exactly that, 0:24:48.676 --> 0:24:53.876 the sheer rock wall, and so well, you know, and 0:24:53.916 --> 0:24:58.956 so the idea, I don't know, maybe you as I say, physically, 0:24:58.956 --> 0:25:02.916 the idea of shouting somebody out, it's diffic lost one 0:25:02.956 --> 0:25:06.356 of them, Okay, so no one could really explain how 0:25:06.436 --> 0:25:12.556 lady got up there. M awkward fact number four. Fred 0:25:13.196 --> 0:25:18.156 his whole manner, it was wooden. Fred comes over on 0:25:18.156 --> 0:25:22.756 that tape to the officers, is very calculating and deliberately 0:25:23.116 --> 0:25:27.236 with respect to the story and speech type well for 0:25:27.276 --> 0:25:29.916 them most part, Like in the first first hour hour 0:25:29.956 --> 0:25:33.476 and a half of the interrogation, he rarely breaks down 0:25:33.516 --> 0:25:36.236 him at all. I said, when when he mentions Vernon's name, 0:25:36.236 --> 0:25:38.276 where he mentioned aside his name, he does appear a 0:25:38.276 --> 0:25:40.756 little bit choked up. It's fleeting. It's just there for 0:25:40.756 --> 0:25:43.596 a moment, and then he's back to normal Fred. Fred's 0:25:43.596 --> 0:25:46.596 are very reserved individual who's being very calculating by nature. 0:25:46.636 --> 0:25:49.996 And he also knew with what those guys meant. In 0:25:50.116 --> 0:25:52.876 pre trial hearings, they said Fred was coming off as 0:25:52.956 --> 0:25:57.156 stiff aloof and wanting to smile a little more and 0:25:57.436 --> 0:25:59.276 look a little bit more relaxed when he's sitting at 0:25:59.316 --> 0:26:02.916 the bench and had a bail hearing where he was 0:26:02.996 --> 0:26:06.236 denied release. Fred had shown no emotion. One of those 0:26:06.476 --> 0:26:10.836 just put hand since they be saying, yeah, you know, 0:26:11.436 --> 0:26:14.716 his expressions changing on at own. I wanted him to 0:26:14.756 --> 0:26:17.076 be a little good destiny. Now, when you get a 0:26:17.156 --> 0:26:18.956 jury up there and Fred gets on the stand to 0:26:19.036 --> 0:26:21.676 testifying his own defense, indeed, if he comes across with 0:26:21.756 --> 0:26:25.676 some of what you've just said, almost called calculating, call 0:26:25.756 --> 0:26:29.796 us a cucumber, matter of fact, except for you know, 0:26:30.156 --> 0:26:35.236 emotional chokes that you know, the jury could say, um, jeez, 0:26:35.316 --> 0:26:38.236 you know this guy is so bloody calculating that that 0:26:38.316 --> 0:26:43.236 it's conceivable for They were hesitant though, to give Fred 0:26:43.356 --> 0:26:46.676 too much direction, especially if the prosecution was going to 0:26:46.756 --> 0:26:48.996 put on a case thing he was a phony and 0:26:49.116 --> 0:26:52.076 a fake. No, no, no, And then that's you know, 0:26:52.156 --> 0:26:53.636 that's the worst thing you could do, it to say, 0:26:53.676 --> 0:26:55.436 you know, give us a give us a movie of 0:26:55.476 --> 0:26:57.996 the week performance. Well maybe he takes the volume for that. 0:26:58.076 --> 0:27:00.876 But but the thing is you can react to you 0:27:00.876 --> 0:27:03.956 can react without being contrived. This tape, he was stifling 0:27:04.276 --> 0:27:06.036 and he was trying to push it down. So I 0:27:06.036 --> 0:27:09.276 think Joe enhances communication with the absence. But I think he, hey, 0:27:09.276 --> 0:27:11.636 we needs to be we needs to guns from girl's friend. 0:27:11.676 --> 0:27:14.396 Allowed to well up, let it come out. You get 0:27:14.436 --> 0:27:16.236 a little bit more emotions on when you feel you know, 0:27:16.316 --> 0:27:18.716 let that come out display. Anytime you want him to 0:27:18.756 --> 0:27:20.916 break down, he just marches three kids in the back 0:27:20.956 --> 0:27:24.636 of the courtroom and he will be in tears. In essence, 0:27:24.676 --> 0:27:28.476 what your comments are that you feel that Fred's state 0:27:28.516 --> 0:27:31.116 of mind is so bad because of all the tragedies 0:27:31.156 --> 0:27:33.356 that's happened in his life, that he's basically just kind 0:27:33.396 --> 0:27:36.916 of prepared himself. That it's not a guy that said, well, jeez, 0:27:36.956 --> 0:27:39.116 I hope I get away with us. It's a guy 0:27:39.156 --> 0:27:46.396 that's saying, what what next? Awkward Fact number five The 0:27:46.516 --> 0:27:52.116 elephant in the room Jean Fred's first wife, who also 0:27:52.276 --> 0:27:57.716 drowned under murky circumstances. The gene gonna be admissions. We're 0:27:57.716 --> 0:28:01.956 working on a no. Yes, I don't think it is well. 0:28:01.996 --> 0:28:04.276 Would you say right now, Bill, that's what you're thinking 0:28:04.396 --> 0:28:06.476 is too Yeah, but how can you keep it in 0:28:06.876 --> 0:28:11.196 how well they The thing is that the indicial systems 0:28:11.236 --> 0:28:13.796 not allow evidence of Chrier crimes to come in just 0:28:13.836 --> 0:28:17.756