1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin, a Malibu dad who killed his wife and her 2 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:33,876 Speaker 1: young child out of greed. It sure looked that way 3 00:00:33,876 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: to stand Rodin, the Santa Barbara District attorney. This is 4 00:00:38,116 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: Dempsey Billy, a DA's investigator who worked on the case. 5 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: I think we had five or six or seven criminal investigators, 6 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:53,756 Speaker 1: and then about probably about twelve deputy district attorneys, and 7 00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 1: so the round table to see if the district attorneys 8 00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 1: I should file that case. When the facts of Fred's 9 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 1: case were presented, there were crickets. Nobody really wanted the case. 10 00:01:07,756 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: They didn't think it wasn't think there's enough evidence there 11 00:01:11,316 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 1: to hues Fred Railer. And then Stan Rowdin so very 12 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: strongly about it and took it and ran with it. 13 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:24,356 Speaker 1: Stan Rodin was the elected official, the boss, and he 14 00:01:24,436 --> 00:01:27,956 Speaker 1: wanted to argue the case himself. He was determined to 15 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:31,556 Speaker 1: bring Fred Rayler to justice. He is the one, I'll 16 00:01:31,556 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 1: say it myself. He put the full weight of his 17 00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: office behind the effort. Law enforcement was investigating five deaths 18 00:01:42,076 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 1: with possible connections to Fred. Verna Doug, the navy diver 19 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:51,156 Speaker 1: who had drowned while using Fred's scuba equipment, and also 20 00:01:51,676 --> 00:01:57,076 Speaker 1: Verna's first husband, Bill and Fred's first wife, Jean. The 21 00:01:57,156 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara detectives Fred Ray and Claude Tuller had turned 22 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,796 Speaker 1: up a ton of dirt on Fred. For every person 23 00:02:03,836 --> 00:02:07,396 Speaker 1: in Malibu who admired him, it seemed another one thought 24 00:02:07,396 --> 00:02:10,916 Speaker 1: he was a creep. He was cold, he was harsh, 25 00:02:10,956 --> 00:02:14,436 Speaker 1: he was weird, he was kind, he was true. You 26 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: could trust him with your life. Fred hired a high 27 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:20,836 Speaker 1: powered defense attorney and engaged a team of private eyes. 28 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 1: They started reinterviewing the detective sources, all those Malibu people 29 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: who had talked to Ray and Tuller and told the 30 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: tales the detectives wove into that scandalous fifty four page affidavit. 31 00:02:33,556 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 1: But when Fred's investigators fanned out over Malibu, they heard 32 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 1: a very different story. Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom, had 33 00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:45,196 Speaker 1: talked to detectives back in March of nineteen eighty one 34 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:49,836 Speaker 1: before Fred's arrest. In the affidavit, Detective Tuller wrote that 35 00:02:49,916 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 1: she quote described Fred as being strange, stormy, and rigid. 36 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: He also wrote, citing Kathy, the second marriage was not 37 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,436 Speaker 1: as happy as Verno's first marriage with Bill. She described 38 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:06,636 Speaker 1: Bill as being gentle and Fred as not gentle, and 39 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:11,236 Speaker 1: he wrote again, supposedly based on the commentary, Doug was 40 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:15,556 Speaker 1: afraid of Fred. But two months later, when one of 41 00:03:15,596 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 1: Fred's investigators went to talk to Kathy, she was appalled 42 00:03:19,556 --> 00:03:27,436 Speaker 1: the detectives had taken her words and twisted them. I mean, 43 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:29,396 Speaker 1: I can tell right off about this is not quite 44 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: an accurate Okay, why don't you consider accurate? Well, let 45 00:03:34,196 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: me go back to the beginning, where it said Vernon 46 00:03:39,876 --> 00:03:43,076 Speaker 1: had problems with his second marriage. Second marriage was not 47 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:45,276 Speaker 1: as happy as Vernon's first marriage was. Bill, I don't 48 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:47,796 Speaker 1: know that, and I didn't say that. This kind of 49 00:03:47,796 --> 00:03:49,956 Speaker 1: elaborates on what I might have said, you know, when 50 00:03:50,036 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 1: I didn't hear the say more strongly than exactly. Um, 51 00:03:56,276 --> 00:04:00,796 Speaker 1: where it talked about described Fred as being strange, stormy 52 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:05,316 Speaker 1: and rigid. Yes, I think his um his way of dealing. 53 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: Maybe the discipline was rigid, but a lot of that 54 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:11,236 Speaker 1: is what I had heard. You know, I did not 55 00:04:11,316 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 1: witness him beating up his children. No, Um, let me 56 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:22,156 Speaker 1: go on here described as Bill as being very gentle 57 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:25,356 Speaker 1: and Fred as not gentle. I don't really know if 58 00:04:25,356 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 1: he's not gentle. So you did not say that, No, 59 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: that Kred was not gentle, I just exactly what I'm 60 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: here for. Just go on making comments like you are 61 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:39,196 Speaker 1: as you're And I never said that Doug was afraid 62 00:04:39,196 --> 00:04:42,956 Speaker 1: of Fred, because I never witnessed that Fred had some 63 00:04:42,996 --> 00:04:47,116 Speaker 1: detractors in Malibu. She wasn't a fan, but had that 64 00:04:47,276 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: somehow been turned into a criminal complaint against the guy, 65 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: you know, And I don't know if some of these 66 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 1: people haven't asked to grind, you know, human nature. I mean, wow, 67 00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:01,996 Speaker 1: a great scandal, you know, go with it. By the 68 00:05:02,076 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 1: end of her conversation with the investigator, Kathy Pulis was angry, 69 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 1: and I've offended that, you know, Natona did all insinuating 70 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:13,156 Speaker 1: here too make a case better or whatever. So no, 71 00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: I would say that this no, always, you would not testify. 72 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:22,036 Speaker 1: I would not testify Santa Barbara. Detective Fred Ray didn't 73 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 1: respond to my interview request, and Claude Teller has died. 74 00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:28,956 Speaker 1: But they left a very long paper trail to build 75 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: their case against Fred. They had to deal with an 76 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:35,356 Speaker 1: inconvenient reality. There was just not a lot of physical evidence, 77 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 1: so they'd gotten creative and poked around the tight knit 78 00:05:38,956 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 1: community of Malibu for clues. That was a gold mine. 79 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:48,316 Speaker 1: Everyone knew something or had heard it third hand from 80 00:05:48,316 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 1: someone else. So the detectives gathered a lot of juicy 81 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: stories that presented Fred's defense team with a challenge. This 82 00:05:57,796 --> 00:05:59,596 Speaker 1: is how one of the private detectives put it to 83 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 1: him back in the spring of nineteen eighty one. Somewhere 84 00:06:03,116 --> 00:06:05,236 Speaker 1: along the lines, It's been said that there are three 85 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,316 Speaker 1: Fred Rays. One is the one you think of yourself as, 86 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 1: the other one is the one that people perceive you as, 87 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 1: and the third one the one that you really are. 88 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:21,116 Speaker 1: So who was the real Fred Railer? I'm Dana Goodyear 89 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 1: and this is Lost Hills episode eight three. Fred's Fred 90 00:06:56,916 --> 00:06:59,356 Speaker 1: needed to prove that the Santa Barbara detectives had it 91 00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 1: all wrong. They had him all wrong. He was a 92 00:07:03,316 --> 00:07:05,876 Speaker 1: good guy, and he set about trying to prove it 93 00:07:06,156 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: from his jail cell in Santa Barbara. Of mine for 94 00:07:09,716 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: Fred beating back the image of him created by detectives 95 00:07:13,476 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 1: Ray and Tuller in the affidavit. Here he is talking 96 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 1: to the private eye. When I received the company of 97 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:29,876 Speaker 1: the affidavit fifty four page, I sat down and responded 98 00:07:29,916 --> 00:07:38,556 Speaker 1: to Yip page by page. After I did that, I 99 00:07:38,636 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 1: went back and I wrote, probably at least one to 100 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 1: two tablets, legal tablets. Just what we're going to be 101 00:07:49,036 --> 00:07:52,316 Speaker 1: talking about right again, They went through a list of 102 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 1: all the people Fred knew in Malibu, but not just that. 103 00:07:55,996 --> 00:08:01,596 Speaker 1: They talked about his family, Verna's family, Jean's family. According 104 00:08:01,636 --> 00:08:05,876 Speaker 1: to Fred, Verna's family and Jean's parents were totally supportive 105 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: of him. There's a good dialogue and good communication there 106 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:16,636 Speaker 1: as close to me really as my parents came. It's 107 00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:19,076 Speaker 1: a unique situation that's, you know, that's going to be 108 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:21,996 Speaker 1: a strength as far as you're you know, to put 109 00:08:21,996 --> 00:08:25,916 Speaker 1: it in a very pragmatic term, these people are going 110 00:08:25,956 --> 00:08:31,556 Speaker 1: to be your best characterizes. It was important the investigator 111 00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:35,356 Speaker 1: said that the persona Fred presented to the jury be credible. 112 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 1: If there was a bad Fred, he needed to know 113 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 1: about that too. See, we don't want to characterize you 114 00:08:41,756 --> 00:08:44,076 Speaker 1: as any kind of a saint. Okay, you're a human. 115 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 1: You've got your strengths, you've got your witnesses as you've 116 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: got the things that people know about you. And if 117 00:08:49,956 --> 00:08:52,516 Speaker 1: we can get some kind of a composite then we 118 00:08:52,596 --> 00:08:56,276 Speaker 1: can present you to a jury in a way that 119 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 1: the jury's gonna say, hey, you know, here, we are 120 00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:02,316 Speaker 1: one person who knew him well, and who Fred felt 121 00:09:02,356 --> 00:09:06,756 Speaker 1: sure would vouch for him was his psychiatrist, doctor Paul Remis. 122 00:09:07,836 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 1: Are he am I Even Tarzana law enforcement had run 123 00:09:20,036 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: into a contradiction in Fred's persona in the stories various 124 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 1: witnesses told about him, the man who lived for his 125 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 1: family versus the man who would brutally kill them. If 126 00:09:32,076 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 1: Fred was capable of the cold murders the DA suspected 127 00:09:35,476 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 1: him of, surely doctor Remus would have seen the signs. 128 00:09:40,556 --> 00:10:20,276 Speaker 1: He'd know if Fred was faking right. Fred's private investigator 129 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 1: went to interview doctor Remus, the psychiatrist Fred had consulted 130 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:28,076 Speaker 1: after Jean died and again after Vernon died. The investigator 131 00:10:28,116 --> 00:10:31,036 Speaker 1: wanted to know how Fred had presented himself in therapy, 132 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 1: if his grief had seemed authentic. Here's doctor Remus. The 133 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: first time that I saw Fred, and he talked about 134 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: the fact that his first wife had died. It was 135 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:48,716 Speaker 1: an accidental drowning. I think he brought me the anthology report, 136 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:54,876 Speaker 1: talked about looking into how it happened, the cause of it. 137 00:10:55,876 --> 00:11:00,636 Speaker 1: He was concerned and upset about it, but he didn't cry. 138 00:11:02,476 --> 00:11:05,276 Speaker 1: Doctor Remus said he wasn't surprised by Fred's lack of 139 00:11:05,276 --> 00:11:09,396 Speaker 1: emotion to him. It didn't indicate that Fred had killed Jean, 140 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:14,196 Speaker 1: just that he didn't really like her. This was totally 141 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:18,036 Speaker 1: in keeping with his feeling about Jean, that they really 142 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:23,436 Speaker 1: weren't getting along too well. And he is by nature 143 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:26,836 Speaker 1: as a fellow who holds his feelings in, tries to 144 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 1: intellectualize a lot, uses words in him, part data and facts, 145 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:36,436 Speaker 1: doesn't get into his feelings very easily at all, So 146 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:39,236 Speaker 1: that the fact that he didn't cry but he looked 147 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:42,916 Speaker 1: upset was acceptable to me. I mean, have any question 148 00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 1: second time, but when Verna died, Fred's behavior was markedly 149 00:11:47,756 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 1: different this time. When I saw him with Verna, the 150 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:57,596 Speaker 1: very first thing he said for sentences soon was my 151 00:11:57,636 --> 00:12:01,556 Speaker 1: wife is dandy, and he looked at me he broke 152 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: into tears, strangely to remiss. This was real sorrow, an unfathable, 153 00:12:08,596 --> 00:12:19,236 Speaker 1: authentic emotion. That was very significant to me because this 154 00:12:19,316 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 1: is a guy who tries to use intellectual defenses all 155 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:25,396 Speaker 1: the time, and here I don't believe he could have 156 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 1: faked it. But I didn't have that feeling that there 157 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 1: was a manipulation of my feelings at all. The actions 158 00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: spoke for themselves. He was moved to the point of reacting. 159 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 1: Nature of the relationship with Burnam was entirely different than 160 00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 1: his relationship with a Gene that changed his life. And 161 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 1: I think that that's enormously significant. You see, here we 162 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 1: have a guy, Verna, doctor Rima said, pushed Fred in 163 00:12:54,396 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 1: a good way. She demanded that he experienced life, and 164 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 1: his connection to her was entirely different than his connection 165 00:13:06,836 --> 00:13:11,276 Speaker 1: to Gene. To get on with to you know, be 166 00:13:11,356 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: in love with Verna meant you had to get into yourself. 167 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 1: You had to do so. She meditated, she was on 168 00:13:16,556 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: nutrition therapy, she started jogging. She you know, she lived, 169 00:13:21,956 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: and she was his life. In fact, just showed him 170 00:13:25,996 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: the way that life could be. You know, I don't know. 171 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:31,316 Speaker 1: You know this is not to say Nate comments as 172 00:13:31,316 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 1: well he would want to get rid of Gene. I'm 173 00:13:32,836 --> 00:13:35,756 Speaker 1: not saying that. I'm saying Verna meant to him something 174 00:13:35,836 --> 00:13:42,476 Speaker 1: that money couldn't buy. His phrasing is arresting. Verna meant 175 00:13:42,556 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 1: something money couldn't buy. Verna and he fit together, both 176 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 1: of them having lost a partner and both of them 177 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:54,236 Speaker 1: having children, and she essentially knowing how to take children 178 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:58,356 Speaker 1: a lot better than he did. It was a functional 179 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 1: thing for the boat, he thought. Verna had also helped 180 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 1: Fred process Jean's death. Things between Fred and Jean were 181 00:14:06,716 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 1: so acrimonious at the end. Gene death was especially hard 182 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:13,996 Speaker 1: for Fred, we MIAs said, because deep down he kind 183 00:14:13,996 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 1: of wanted her to go away. You know, his worst fear, 184 00:14:17,756 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 1: which is to to have your thought played out in action. 185 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: You know, you can hate somebody because you find them. Dad, 186 00:14:24,276 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 1: it's your worst fear. You know, you wouldn't want that 187 00:14:26,036 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 1: to happen. And so he was blown away. That's where 188 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 1: Verne came in. She was a religious person, okay, and 189 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:40,316 Speaker 1: he wasn't. She you know, grounded him. She really gave 190 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 1: him some kind of a basis for understanding, Yeah, an 191 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:54,356 Speaker 1: emotional basis sense. He understands things very well intellectually. Oh, 192 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 1: I know, he's heard right, fell that's right her. But emotionally, 193 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,916 Speaker 1: it's difficult for him to sometimes get into into his feelings. 194 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:07,476 Speaker 1: He's not really had a lot of experience in communicating 195 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 1: feeling to other people about how he feels inside. Difficult 196 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:16,756 Speaker 1: for him to express his emotions in the fields. I'd 197 00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:19,596 Speaker 1: go farther than that, I'd say that often people like 198 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 1: Fred can express themselves pretty well, but deep inside they 199 00:15:23,356 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 1: know they're holding out. They're not really wide open vulnerable. 200 00:15:28,356 --> 00:15:35,356 Speaker 1: As the work difficult to be vulderble he was vulnerable 201 00:15:35,396 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 1: when he came into the office the second time. Medical 202 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 1: professionals who saw Fred right after the drownings told the 203 00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: detectives about odd behavior they'd observed. Fred's vital signs were 204 00:15:46,356 --> 00:15:49,316 Speaker 1: normal and he had no obvious injuries, but he was 205 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 1: acting really out of it, seemingly drifting in and out 206 00:15:52,556 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: of consciousness and refusing to answer questions. They had suggested 207 00:15:56,676 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 1: to the detectives Fred might have been faking. The investigator 208 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: wanted to know if Fred knew enough about psychology about 209 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 1: what was expected of him to be able to act 210 00:16:08,556 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 1: shocked and horrified when Verna and dug died. The answer 211 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: is yes, but balance it against other things. Again, the 212 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 1: odds are point one percent that he you know, he's 213 00:16:21,796 --> 00:16:23,996 Speaker 1: you know, he psyched out the whole thing, figured out, 214 00:16:24,356 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: you know, how to react, and there's nothing in his 215 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:32,076 Speaker 1: past that suggests that there's just that kind of psychopathology 216 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: that makes good TV story, you know, where the criminal 217 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 1: is so clever that he fools everybody. I believe you 218 00:16:39,956 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 1: to do that in real life, Remas said, Fred's love 219 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:47,236 Speaker 1: for Verna was genuine, and so was his investment in 220 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 1: his children. He didn't think the family Man persona was 221 00:16:50,956 --> 00:16:53,996 Speaker 1: an act, and he definitely didn't think Fred was smart 222 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:58,436 Speaker 1: enough to Jedi mind trick him. But mostly he approached 223 00:16:58,476 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 1: the problem practically. Besides loving Verna, Fred needed her, so 224 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: why would he kill her? Law enforcement was theorizing that 225 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 1: Fred needed money more than he needed Verna, that he 226 00:17:19,036 --> 00:17:21,756 Speaker 1: was driven to kill in order to collect insurance money. 227 00:17:22,516 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: Looking at his finances, it's hard to see a different 228 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: source of income. He needed a change of fortune if 229 00:17:29,076 --> 00:17:31,636 Speaker 1: he was going to keep living the dream in Malibu. 230 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: But law enforcement didn't necessarily understand the real estate market 231 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:40,796 Speaker 1: in coastal southern California. Here's Fred talking to one of 232 00:17:40,836 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 1: the private investigators he hired, explaining how he got into 233 00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 1: the housing game. He started with a place in a 234 00:17:46,956 --> 00:17:51,316 Speaker 1: Silver Strand neighborhood in Oxnard. We paid some enormous amount 235 00:17:51,356 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 1: of money, like eighteen thousand dollars for his house Silver 236 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: Strand in nine two. Yeah, and we still have with 237 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:05,196 Speaker 1: this day. He's still on the household. Ye, it's worth 238 00:18:05,236 --> 00:18:08,596 Speaker 1: a little more praised at one hundred and five or 239 00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 1: something as business. Fred's friend Mike Kelleen told that same 240 00:18:14,276 --> 00:18:17,756 Speaker 1: investigator that Fred's instincts for real estate were the key 241 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 1: to his financial solvency. Oh, I can tell you story. 242 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:25,476 Speaker 1: It's really easy because you remember what happened between like 243 00:18:25,676 --> 00:18:29,636 Speaker 1: seventy and seventy six and seventy seven. Things were crazy. 244 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:33,476 Speaker 1: It was a story that hinged on the massive inflation 245 00:18:33,556 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 1: of home values in the region. When Fred and Jean 246 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 1: moved back from Berkeley, they purchased a house on Califine. 247 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 1: My recollection is that they paid somewhere in the fifty 248 00:18:43,516 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 1: to sixty thousand dollars as for that house. I don't 249 00:18:46,316 --> 00:18:49,356 Speaker 1: know how creative he was in financing, but again, the 250 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:52,236 Speaker 1: guy doesn't have to be wealthy to put that together, 251 00:18:52,916 --> 00:18:57,636 Speaker 1: and he put it together. He had income property in Oxnard, 252 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:01,076 Speaker 1: he had income property Amalivie and Berna had some income 253 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 1: property am And with that going on, that's how I 254 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:09,636 Speaker 1: suppose he would pay his mortgage. And as far as 255 00:19:09,716 --> 00:19:12,196 Speaker 1: I knew, he probably had some resources to draw from 256 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:15,716 Speaker 1: a little bit of savings. Was Britain all consumed with 257 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 1: making the almighty dog. The man has the soul of 258 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:22,876 Speaker 1: a part of a grating business learning check who thinks 259 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 1: that the dollar is the most important thing. But he's 260 00:19:25,436 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: not not a stupid man. He certainly realized the value 261 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:35,636 Speaker 1: of his prudent investment. Certain No, Mike's point. Fred might 262 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 1: look over extended to the investigators, but all these properties 263 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:44,196 Speaker 1: were working for him, making him money, and home values 264 00:19:44,276 --> 00:20:01,356 Speaker 1: were surging. For months, Fred sat in a jail cell 265 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: in Santa Barbara. He made a lot of notes, long 266 00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:07,436 Speaker 1: lists of things for his defense team to do in 267 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:10,996 Speaker 1: passion for rebuttals of the witness statements against him, Lists 268 00:20:10,996 --> 00:20:13,756 Speaker 1: of reasons why the accusations were so bone headed in 269 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 1: the first place. Law enforcement was overreaching, out of control, 270 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 1: quote bad news, coaching investigation targets, and putting words in 271 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 1: their mouth a no, no, unquote. One list he made 272 00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 1: was titled why not. At Santa Cruz Island, January second, 273 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:36,116 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, there were thirty eight numbered reasons why not. 274 00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:40,436 Speaker 1: Number six could have waited till we were in Mexico 275 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: and had them done in by bandits. Number twelve would 276 00:20:44,916 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 1: have picked a boat that sank. Number fourteen would have 277 00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:51,556 Speaker 1: beat them up on rocks to mask anything. I would 278 00:20:51,556 --> 00:20:55,276 Speaker 1: have done Number fifteen could have cut them and had 279 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 1: sharks in ten minutes. Number sixteen could have had them 280 00:20:59,596 --> 00:21:02,636 Speaker 1: done in on a secluded part of Malibu Beach, could 281 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:07,156 Speaker 1: have been jumped by dopers. Or number seventeen could have 282 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 1: had them kidnapped. Number eighteen, why would I want to 283 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 1: ruin a dream boat trip? Could have waited till everyone 284 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:17,236 Speaker 1: wanted to go home or I was ready to go home. 285 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 1: Fred wasn't the only one strategizing. He had a robust 286 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 1: defense team led by a high powered defense attorney. A 287 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:27,836 Speaker 1: few of his friends from Malibu and one of his 288 00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 1: brothers were also helping, and so was Fred's friend Bill Fairfield, 289 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: the lawyer who was part of all those hot tub 290 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:37,236 Speaker 1: parties back in the gene era, who'd advised him in 291 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:41,116 Speaker 1: Verna on estate planning and set up the trust. Here 292 00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 1: they are troubleshooting Fred's defense, addressing the things that made 293 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 1: him seem guilty, the awkward facts they were going to 294 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: have to work around, and our purpose in being congregated 295 00:21:56,116 --> 00:22:02,476 Speaker 1: here this morning is to discuss some ideas and hopefully 296 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:06,516 Speaker 1: bring out some suggestions that may be of benefit to 297 00:22:07,156 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 1: Fred's defense in connection with the upcoming trial. Awkward fact 298 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 1: number one, Verna and Doug could swim. One of the 299 00:22:20,196 --> 00:22:25,036 Speaker 1: things that certainly has come to my mind and that 300 00:22:25,116 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: has certainly become a major issue, is the swimming ability 301 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 1: of both Doug and Verna. Have any of you experienced 302 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 1: or a visualized Doug in any type of panic situation 303 00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: before he was a hyper kid. Wasn't he high stroke 304 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: which with spetual motion, which would indicate to me, whether 305 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 1: ties or not, I don't know, but it would indicate 306 00:22:51,236 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 1: to me that under a situation of panic, you would 307 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 1: tend to react. Now, but a lot of kids would. 308 00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 1: I mean, my kid two days ago got turned over 309 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: by a wave and was in a terrible shape. You 310 00:23:02,396 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 1: know this was this was three feet from me and 311 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: was in a panic. You know so. But if your 312 00:23:07,796 --> 00:23:12,036 Speaker 1: kid is just the average kid in terms of energy, 313 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:15,916 Speaker 1: perfectual emotion of dog, maybe Doug would react even yes, 314 00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:19,396 Speaker 1: crash about even a bit more, which again is why 315 00:23:19,436 --> 00:23:23,396 Speaker 1: I wonder about that. I mean, you can come up 316 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 1: with ten, twelve, twenty ways. Perhaps the dog could have 317 00:23:26,236 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: been hit in the hand, the oar, the camera action 318 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:33,076 Speaker 1: Fred falling over as they're all falling out of the boat, 319 00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 1: and Burnham grabbing something, and maybe that something was dug 320 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:41,916 Speaker 1: and push Doug down into the boats. Awkward. Fact number two. 321 00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 1: Fred could really swim, you know, to the mecca Vellian mind. 322 00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:51,316 Speaker 1: Here as a man who is more expert in the 323 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 1: water than nine of the population, so he knows exactly. 324 00:23:56,876 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 1: I mean, he is in his element when he's in 325 00:23:58,916 --> 00:24:03,396 Speaker 1: the water. So therefore he knows what to do to 326 00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: I mean, if he wants interpret in calculating fashion, riot 327 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:11,676 Speaker 1: to do that, he knows what to do. And this 328 00:24:11,756 --> 00:24:15,676 Speaker 1: could rebound badly against him as a possibility I can 329 00:24:15,756 --> 00:24:18,276 Speaker 1: be used in Romans show. That's why Freend survived. Here 330 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: was no water along damn time. Okay he was. He 331 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:23,956 Speaker 1: swammed those people along ways, and that's I don't like 332 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:25,756 Speaker 1: to him about it. You know, I think I'd have 333 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:28,036 Speaker 1: bought it well long before he was in the water, 334 00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 1: up to least an hour as far as we can 335 00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: tell them, maybe an hour and a half. So I mean, 336 00:24:31,516 --> 00:24:33,276 Speaker 1: I think you know you can you can use it 337 00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:36,036 Speaker 1: to cut both words. Let's to consume. Let me let 338 00:24:36,076 --> 00:24:40,316 Speaker 1: me awkward Fact number three, Lady eat the dog. He 339 00:24:40,396 --> 00:24:43,876 Speaker 1: was able to save his dog, wasn't he The dog 340 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:48,556 Speaker 1: was okay? Well, okay, but the rock wall is exactly that, 341 00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 1: the sheer rock wall, and so well, you know, and 342 00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:58,956 Speaker 1: so the idea, I don't know, maybe you as I say, physically, 343 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 1: the idea of shouting somebody out, it's diffic lost one 344 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:06,356 Speaker 1: of them, Okay, so no one could really explain how 345 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 1: lady got up there. M awkward fact number four. Fred 346 00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 1: his whole manner, it was wooden. Fred comes over on 347 00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:22,756 Speaker 1: that tape to the officers, is very calculating and deliberately 348 00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 1: with respect to the story and speech type well for 349 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:29,916 Speaker 1: them most part, Like in the first first hour hour 350 00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 1: and a half of the interrogation, he rarely breaks down 351 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,236 Speaker 1: him at all. I said, when when he mentions Vernon's name, 352 00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:38,276 Speaker 1: where he mentioned aside his name, he does appear a 353 00:25:38,276 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 1: little bit choked up. It's fleeting. It's just there for 354 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 1: a moment, and then he's back to normal Fred. Fred's 355 00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:46,596 Speaker 1: are very reserved individual who's being very calculating by nature. 356 00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 1: And he also knew with what those guys meant. In 357 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 1: pre trial hearings, they said Fred was coming off as 358 00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:57,156 Speaker 1: stiff aloof and wanting to smile a little more and 359 00:25:57,436 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 1: look a little bit more relaxed when he's sitting at 360 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:02,916 Speaker 1: the bench and had a bail hearing where he was 361 00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:06,236 Speaker 1: denied release. Fred had shown no emotion. One of those 362 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: just put hand since they be saying, yeah, you know, 363 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:14,716 Speaker 1: his expressions changing on at own. I wanted him to 364 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: be a little good destiny. Now, when you get a 365 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 1: jury up there and Fred gets on the stand to 366 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:21,676 Speaker 1: testifying his own defense, indeed, if he comes across with 367 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 1: some of what you've just said, almost called calculating, call 368 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:29,796 Speaker 1: us a cucumber, matter of fact, except for you know, 369 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: emotional chokes that you know, the jury could say, um, jeez, 370 00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 1: you know this guy is so bloody calculating that that 371 00:26:38,316 --> 00:26:43,236 Speaker 1: it's conceivable for They were hesitant though, to give Fred 372 00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:46,676 Speaker 1: too much direction, especially if the prosecution was going to 373 00:26:46,756 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: put on a case thing he was a phony and 374 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: a fake. No, no, no, And then that's you know, 375 00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:53,636 Speaker 1: that's the worst thing you could do, it to say, 376 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 1: you know, give us a give us a movie of 377 00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: the week performance. Well maybe he takes the volume for that. 378 00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:00,876 Speaker 1: But but the thing is you can react to you 379 00:27:00,876 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 1: can react without being contrived. This tape, he was stifling 380 00:27:04,276 --> 00:27:06,036 Speaker 1: and he was trying to push it down. So I 381 00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:09,276 Speaker 1: think Joe enhances communication with the absence. But I think he, hey, 382 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 1: we needs to be we needs to guns from girl's friend. 383 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,396 Speaker 1: Allowed to well up, let it come out. You get 384 00:27:14,436 --> 00:27:16,236 Speaker 1: a little bit more emotions on when you feel you know, 385 00:27:16,316 --> 00:27:18,716 Speaker 1: let that come out display. Anytime you want him to 386 00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:20,916 Speaker 1: break down, he just marches three kids in the back 387 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 1: of the courtroom and he will be in tears. In essence, 388 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: what your comments are that you feel that Fred's state 389 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,116 Speaker 1: of mind is so bad because of all the tragedies 390 00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:33,356 Speaker 1: that's happened in his life, that he's basically just kind 391 00:27:33,396 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 1: of prepared himself. That it's not a guy that said, well, jeez, 392 00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: I hope I get away with us. It's a guy 393 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:46,396 Speaker 1: that's saying, what what next? Awkward Fact number five The 394 00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 1: elephant in the room Jean Fred's first wife, who also 395 00:27:52,276 --> 00:27:57,716 Speaker 1: drowned under murky circumstances. The gene gonna be admissions. We're 396 00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:01,956 Speaker 1: working on a no. Yes, I don't think it is well. 397 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 1: Would you say right now, Bill, that's what you're thinking 398 00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 1: is too Yeah, but how can you keep it in 399 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 1: how well they The thing is that the indicial systems 400 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:13,796 Speaker 1: not allow evidence of Chrier crimes to come in just 401 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:17,756 Speaker 1: to show up as a final disposition on the half definis, 402 00:28:17,916 --> 00:28:19,916 Speaker 1: and it's more in clinic than the crimes than anyone else. 403 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:22,436 Speaker 1: Sometimes you get an in the shoal common scheme, planet 404 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:27,476 Speaker 1: design tender or knowledge. This will all depend upon upon 405 00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:30,076 Speaker 1: the rulings fly That's yes, That's what I was going 406 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:34,836 Speaker 1: to be Internet. It's a discretion time drilling. The outcome 407 00:28:34,876 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 1: of the trial might turn on whether the judge allowed 408 00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 1: the DA to talk about Gene. If the jury saw 409 00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,676 Speaker 1: a pattern and thought that Fred was killing his wives, 410 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 1: that would be tough for Fred to overcome. But but 411 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 1: there's no doubt that the prosecution has to has to 412 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: bring in the Gene death and some of the insurance 413 00:28:57,916 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 1: history to prove that case. I mean, I mean, if 414 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 1: they don't, the case is blown out of the war. Well, 415 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:08,916 Speaker 1: it's severely impaired. Let's put it that way. You still 416 00:29:08,916 --> 00:29:14,196 Speaker 1: have Fred's story, whether or not inscredible or not. The 417 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 1: outcome of the trial would depend almost entirely on Fred 418 00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 1: the only witness to the drownings of Verna and Doug, 419 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:24,796 Speaker 1: and Fred was confident in his ability to explain the 420 00:29:24,916 --> 00:29:29,636 Speaker 1: strange circumstances of their deaths. After all, he had experience, 421 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 1: he'd done it before, he'd silenced the rumors stirring in 422 00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: Malibu after Jean's death. He'd even manage to persuade one 423 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:43,996 Speaker 1: of her best friends, Verna, to marry him. But this 424 00:29:44,076 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 1: time he'd be facing a jury, twelve strangers, and a 425 00:29:48,556 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: formidable adversary, Stan rodin the Santa Barbara Da Coming up 426 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Lost Hills, Fred's trial draws 427 00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 1: a crowd. People like it is about rich people and 428 00:30:10,396 --> 00:30:14,036 Speaker 1: rich people doing bad things. You know, this is mythology. 429 00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:18,796 Speaker 1: If somebody got life insurance and killed their wife in 430 00:30:18,836 --> 00:30:22,876 Speaker 1: a glamorous situation on a yacht, you know, on a 431 00:30:22,916 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: holiday weekend. Wow, that's a big deal. And look we've 432 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:30,116 Speaker 1: got this highly technical evidence about it because it's you know, 433 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:32,636 Speaker 1: we're such a hot shot prosecution that we can do this. 434 00:30:33,756 --> 00:30:47,156 Speaker 1: That's next in episode nine, Prejudicial Effect. Lost Tails is 435 00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 1: written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's created by 436 00:30:50,676 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and 437 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 438 00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:00,036 Speaker 1: the whole season add free and get early access to 439 00:31:00,076 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 1: the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost 440 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:20,196 Speaker 1: Tails show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.