1 00:00:15,386 --> 00:00:29,716 Speaker 1: A Malibu dad who'd killed his wife and her young 2 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:34,006 Speaker 1: child out of greed? It sure looked that way to 3 00:00:34,086 --> 00:00:38,906 Speaker 1: Stan Roden, the Santa Barbara district attorney. This is Dempsey Billy, 4 00:00:39,126 --> 00:00:41,166 Speaker 1: a DA's investigator who worked on the case. 5 00:00:42,446 --> 00:00:43,166 Speaker 2: I think we had. 6 00:00:44,776 --> 00:00:49,106 Speaker 2: Five or six or seven criminal investigators, and then about, 7 00:00:50,306 --> 00:00:55,106 Speaker 2: probably about 12 deputy district attorneys. And so they'd roundtable 8 00:00:55,146 --> 00:00:58,646 Speaker 2: it to see if the district attorneys should file that case. 9 00:01:00,026 --> 00:01:04,566 Speaker 1: When the facts of Fred's case were presented, there were crickets. 10 00:01:05,776 --> 00:01:10,276 Speaker 2: Nobody really wanted the case. They didn't think there was 11 00:01:10,336 --> 00:01:15,216 Speaker 2: enough evidence there to accuse Fred Raylor. And then Stan 12 00:01:15,256 --> 00:01:19,336 Speaker 2: Roden felt very strongly about it and took it and 13 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:19,906 Speaker 2: ran with it. 14 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:24,426 Speaker 1: Stan Roden was the elected official, the boss, and he 15 00:01:24,466 --> 00:01:28,006 Speaker 1: wanted to argue the case himself. He was determined to 16 00:01:28,026 --> 00:01:29,506 Speaker 1: bring Fred Raylor to justice. 17 00:01:30,106 --> 00:01:32,266 Speaker 2: He's the one that said, I'll take it myself. 18 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:36,356 Speaker 1: He put the full weight of his office behind the effort. 19 00:01:39,656 --> 00:01:45,926 Speaker 1: Law enforcement was investigating five deaths with possible connections to Fred. Verna, Doug, 20 00:01:46,586 --> 00:01:50,006 Speaker 1: the Navy diver who had drowned while using Fred's scuba equipment, 21 00:01:50,726 --> 00:01:56,046 Speaker 1: and also Verna's first husband, Bill, and Fred's first wife, Jean. 22 00:01:57,106 --> 00:02:00,406 Speaker 1: The Santa Barbara detectives, Fred Ray and Claude Tuller, had 23 00:02:00,446 --> 00:02:03,526 Speaker 1: turned up a ton of dirt on Fred. For every 24 00:02:03,566 --> 00:02:06,906 Speaker 1: person in Malibu who admired him, it seemed, another one 25 00:02:07,206 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: thought he was a creep. He was cold. He was harsh. 26 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:14,496 Speaker 1: He was weird. He was kind. He was true. You 27 00:02:14,536 --> 00:02:18,216 Speaker 1: could trust him with your life. Fred hired a high-powered 28 00:02:18,236 --> 00:02:21,856 Speaker 1: defense attorney and engaged a team of private eyes. They 29 00:02:21,896 --> 00:02:26,226 Speaker 1: started re-interviewing the detectives' sources, all those Malibu people who 30 00:02:26,266 --> 00:02:28,966 Speaker 1: had talked to Ray and Tuller and told the tales 31 00:02:29,046 --> 00:02:33,926 Speaker 1: the detectives wove into that scandalous 54-page affidavit. But when 32 00:02:34,086 --> 00:02:38,376 Speaker 1: Fred's investigators fanned out over Malibu... they heard a very 33 00:02:38,396 --> 00:02:43,096 Speaker 1: different story. Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom, had talked to 34 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:47,516 Speaker 1: detectives back in March of 1981, before Fred's arrest. In 35 00:02:47,556 --> 00:02:51,956 Speaker 1: the affidavit, Detective Tuller wrote that she, quote, described Fred 36 00:02:52,086 --> 00:02:57,326 Speaker 1: as being strange, stormy, and rigid. He also wrote, citing Kathy, 37 00:02:57,746 --> 00:03:00,326 Speaker 1: the second marriage was not as happy as Verna's first 38 00:03:00,386 --> 00:03:03,886 Speaker 1: marriage with Bill. She described Bill as being gentle and 39 00:03:03,946 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 1: Fred as not gentle. And, he wrote, again, supposedly based 40 00:03:08,896 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 1: on Kathy's commentary, Doug was afraid of Fred. But two 41 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 1: months later, when one of Fred's investigators went to talk 42 00:03:17,036 --> 00:03:21,066 Speaker 1: to Kathy, she was appalled. The detectives had taken her 43 00:03:21,146 --> 00:03:22,766 Speaker 1: words and twisted them. 44 00:03:22,786 --> 00:03:28,766 Speaker 4: I mean, I can tell right off the bat this 45 00:03:28,846 --> 00:03:29,766 Speaker 4: is not quite accurate. 46 00:03:30,466 --> 00:03:31,986 Speaker 5: Okay, what don't you consider accurate? 47 00:03:33,826 --> 00:03:35,306 Speaker 4: Well, let me go back to the beginning. 48 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:35,806 Speaker 6: Okay. 49 00:03:35,896 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 4: Okay. where it said, Verna had problems with her second marriage. 50 00:03:42,216 --> 00:03:44,456 Speaker 4: Second marriage was not as happy as Verna's first marriage 51 00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 4: with Bill. I don't know that, and I didn't say that. 52 00:03:47,366 --> 00:03:49,546 Speaker 4: This kind of elaborates on what I might have said, 53 00:03:49,586 --> 00:03:51,846 Speaker 4: you know, and I didn't really say quite like this. 54 00:03:51,866 --> 00:03:54,926 Speaker 5: In other words, it's worded a lot more strongly than... Exactly. 55 00:03:56,326 --> 00:04:00,806 Speaker 4: Where it talked about Describe Fred as being strange, stormy, 56 00:04:00,846 --> 00:04:05,966 Speaker 4: and rigid. Yes, I think his way of dealing maybe 57 00:04:05,986 --> 00:04:08,126 Speaker 4: with discipline was rigid, but a lot of that is 58 00:04:08,546 --> 00:04:11,746 Speaker 4: what I had heard. You know, I did not witness 59 00:04:11,806 --> 00:04:13,446 Speaker 4: him beating up his children. 60 00:04:14,626 --> 00:04:16,586 Speaker 5: Okay. Or disciplining them. No. 61 00:04:16,606 --> 00:04:21,586 Speaker 4: Let me go on here. Describe his bill as being 62 00:04:21,626 --> 00:04:24,916 Speaker 4: very gentle and Fred as not gentle. I don't really 63 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:26,256 Speaker 4: know that he's not gentle. 64 00:04:26,856 --> 00:04:28,566 Speaker 5: So you did not say that? No. 65 00:04:28,586 --> 00:04:31,496 Speaker 4: That Fred was not gentle. 66 00:04:31,946 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 5: This is exactly what I'm here for. 67 00:04:33,756 --> 00:04:36,616 Speaker 4: Just go on making comments like you are as you are. 68 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:39,636 Speaker 4: And I never said that Doug was afraid of Fred. 69 00:04:40,136 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 5: Because I never witnessed that. 70 00:04:42,416 --> 00:04:45,906 Speaker 1: Fred had some detractors in Malibu. She wasn't a fan. 71 00:04:46,736 --> 00:04:49,406 Speaker 1: But had that somehow been turned into a criminal complaint 72 00:04:49,446 --> 00:04:50,066 Speaker 1: against the guy? 73 00:04:50,086 --> 00:04:52,726 Speaker 4: You know, and I don't know if some of these 74 00:04:52,746 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 4: people have acts to grind with. You know human nature. 75 00:04:56,656 --> 00:05:00,966 Speaker 4: I mean, wow, a great scandal. You know, go with it. 76 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,756 Speaker 1: By the end of her conversation with the investigator, Kathy 77 00:05:04,796 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 1: Pullis was angry. 78 00:05:06,096 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 4: And I'm offended that, you know, they kind of did 79 00:05:08,936 --> 00:05:12,306 Speaker 4: a lot of insinuating here to make their case better 80 00:05:12,316 --> 00:05:13,986 Speaker 4: or whatever. So no, I would say that. 81 00:05:13,986 --> 00:05:17,146 Speaker 5: This, no. You would not testify to what happened? I 82 00:05:17,146 --> 00:05:17,746 Speaker 5: would not testify. 83 00:05:19,786 --> 00:05:23,566 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara detective Fred Ray didn't respond to my interview request, 84 00:05:23,926 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 1: and Claude Teller has died but they left a very 85 00:05:26,776 --> 00:05:30,436 Speaker 1: long paper trail. To build their case against Fred, they 86 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: had to deal with an inconvenient reality. There was just 87 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:37,256 Speaker 1: not a lot of physical evidence. So they'd gotten creative 88 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:40,656 Speaker 1: and poked around the tight-knit community of Malibu for clues. 89 00:05:41,936 --> 00:05:47,426 Speaker 1: That was a goldmine. Everyone knew something, or had heard 90 00:05:47,466 --> 00:05:51,006 Speaker 1: it third-hand from someone else. So the detectives gathered a 91 00:05:51,166 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 1: lot of juicy stories. That presented Fred's defense team with 92 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:59,176 Speaker 1: a challenge. This is how one of the private detectives 93 00:05:59,256 --> 00:06:00,796 Speaker 1: put it to him back in the spring of 1981. 94 00:06:00,776 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: Somewhere along the lines, it's been said that there are 95 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:06,346 Speaker 1: three Fred Raylors. 96 00:06:06,576 --> 00:06:09,146 Speaker 7: One is the one you think of yourself as. The 97 00:06:09,206 --> 00:06:11,116 Speaker 7: other one is the one that people perceive you as. 98 00:06:11,206 --> 00:06:12,766 Speaker 7: And the third one is the one that you really are. 99 00:06:14,006 --> 00:06:21,136 Speaker 1: So who was the real Fred Raylor? I'm Dana Goodyear, 100 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:24,006 Speaker 1: and this is Lost Tales. 101 00:06:24,026 --> 00:06:31,706 Speaker 8: Episode 8. 102 00:06:53,176 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: Three Freds. Fred needed to prove that the Santa Barbara 103 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 1: detectives had it all wrong. They had him all wrong. 104 00:07:02,856 --> 00:07:05,316 Speaker 1: He was a good guy, and he set about trying 105 00:07:05,356 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 1: to prove it from his jail cell in Santa Barbara. 106 00:07:08,936 --> 00:07:11,926 Speaker 1: Top of mind for Fred? Beating back the image of 107 00:07:11,966 --> 00:07:15,166 Speaker 1: him created by detectives Ray and Tuller in the affidavit. 108 00:07:16,006 --> 00:07:17,626 Speaker 1: Here he is, talking to the private eye. 109 00:07:18,546 --> 00:07:25,676 Speaker 6: When I received the copy of the affidavit the 54-page essay. 110 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:33,176 Speaker 6: I sat down and responded to it page by page. 111 00:07:35,656 --> 00:07:40,566 Speaker 6: After I did that, I went back and I wrote. 112 00:07:41,766 --> 00:07:43,446 Speaker 5: Probably at least one to. 113 00:07:43,346 --> 00:07:49,246 Speaker 6: Two tablets, legal tablets, full of just what we're going 114 00:07:49,296 --> 00:07:51,296 Speaker 6: to be talking about again. 115 00:07:51,336 --> 00:07:53,236 Speaker 1: They went through a list of all the people Fred 116 00:07:53,296 --> 00:07:56,636 Speaker 1: knew in Malibu. But not just that. They talked about 117 00:07:56,676 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: his family, Verna's family, Gene's family. According to Fred, Verna's 118 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 1: family and Gene's parents were totally supportive of him. 119 00:08:06,576 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 6: There's a good dialogue and good communication, and they are 120 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 6: as close to me, really, as my parents and his camp. 121 00:08:15,866 --> 00:08:18,096 Speaker 5: It's a unique situation. 122 00:08:18,276 --> 00:08:20,096 Speaker 7: You know, that's going to be a strength as far 123 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:22,896 Speaker 7: as you're, you know, to put it in a very 124 00:08:22,936 --> 00:08:27,536 Speaker 7: pragmatic term. These people are going to be your best 125 00:08:27,976 --> 00:08:28,496 Speaker 7: character witnesses. 126 00:08:30,016 --> 00:08:33,246 Speaker 1: It was important, the investigator said, that the persona Fred 127 00:08:33,326 --> 00:08:37,186 Speaker 1: presented to the jury be credible. If there was a 128 00:08:37,306 --> 00:08:39,706 Speaker 1: bad Fred, he needed to know about that too. 129 00:08:40,546 --> 00:08:42,246 Speaker 7: See, we don't want to characterize you as any kind 130 00:08:42,266 --> 00:08:45,246 Speaker 7: of saint. Okay, you're a human. You've got your strengths. 131 00:08:45,286 --> 00:08:48,046 Speaker 7: You've got your weaknesses. You've got the things that people 132 00:08:48,166 --> 00:08:50,706 Speaker 7: know about you. And if we can get some kind 133 00:08:50,726 --> 00:08:54,666 Speaker 7: of a composite, then we can present you to a 134 00:08:54,706 --> 00:08:57,336 Speaker 7: jury in a way that the jury's going to say, hey, you. 135 00:08:57,286 --> 00:08:58,266 Speaker 5: Know, here we are. 136 00:08:59,576 --> 00:09:02,236 Speaker 1: One person who knew him well and who Fred felt 137 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 1: sure would vouch for him was his psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Remus. 138 00:09:08,016 --> 00:09:08,276 Speaker 4: R-E-M-I-S. 139 00:09:11,466 --> 00:09:12,186 Speaker 6: Maybe even Tarzana. 140 00:09:18,856 --> 00:09:22,256 Speaker 1: Law enforcement had run into a contradiction in Fred's persona 141 00:09:22,616 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 1: in the stories various witnesses told about him. The man 142 00:09:26,716 --> 00:09:29,846 Speaker 1: who lived for his family versus the man who would 143 00:09:29,866 --> 00:09:33,966 Speaker 1: brutally kill them. If Fred was capable of the cold 144 00:09:34,046 --> 00:09:37,886 Speaker 1: murders the DA suspected him of, surely Dr. Remus would 145 00:09:37,926 --> 00:09:41,966 Speaker 1: have seen the signs. He'd know if Fred was faking. 146 00:09:43,666 --> 00:09:43,856 Speaker 5: Right? 147 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:22,736 Speaker 1: Fred's private investigator went to interview Dr. Remus, the psychiatrist 148 00:10:22,796 --> 00:10:26,496 Speaker 1: Fred had consulted after Jean died and again after Verna died. 149 00:10:27,356 --> 00:10:30,366 Speaker 1: The investigator wanted to know how Fred had presented himself 150 00:10:30,446 --> 00:10:35,206 Speaker 1: in therapy if his grief had seemed authentic. Here's Dr. 151 00:10:35,246 --> 00:10:40,066 Speaker 5: Remus. The first time that I saw Fred, and he 152 00:10:40,106 --> 00:10:42,646 Speaker 5: talked about the fact that his first wife had died 153 00:10:42,676 --> 00:10:46,936 Speaker 5: and it was an accidental drowning, I think he brought 154 00:10:46,976 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 5: me the pathology report talked about looking into how it happened, 155 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:58,306 Speaker 5: what was the cause of it. He was concerned and 156 00:10:58,466 --> 00:11:00,686 Speaker 5: upset about it, but he didn't cry. 157 00:11:02,486 --> 00:11:05,766 Speaker 1: Dr. Remus said he wasn't surprised by Fred's lack of emotion. 158 00:11:05,786 --> 00:11:09,486 Speaker 1: To him, it didn't indicate that Fred had killed Jean, 159 00:11:10,026 --> 00:11:11,906 Speaker 1: just that he didn't really like her. 160 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:17,236 Speaker 5: This was totally in keeping with his feeling about Jean 161 00:11:17,356 --> 00:11:22,746 Speaker 5: that they really weren't getting along too well. And he is, 162 00:11:22,826 --> 00:11:26,726 Speaker 5: by nature, a fellow who holds his feelings in, tries 163 00:11:26,746 --> 00:11:31,846 Speaker 5: to intellectualize a lot, uses words and hard data and facts, 164 00:11:32,206 --> 00:11:34,986 Speaker 5: and doesn't give in to his feelings very easily at all. 165 00:11:36,286 --> 00:11:39,736 Speaker 5: So the fact that he didn't cry, but he looked upset, 166 00:11:39,786 --> 00:11:43,896 Speaker 5: was acceptable to me. 167 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:48,076 Speaker 1: But when Verna died, Fred's behavior was markedly different. 168 00:11:49,686 --> 00:11:52,506 Speaker 5: This time when I saw him with Verna, the very 169 00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:56,846 Speaker 5: first thing he said, the first sentence he said was, 170 00:11:57,496 --> 00:12:01,156 Speaker 5: my wife is dead. And he looked at me and 171 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:02,816 Speaker 5: he broke into tears straight away. 172 00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:09,946 Speaker 1: To Remus, this was real sorrow, an unfakable, authentic emotion. 173 00:12:11,126 --> 00:12:19,496 Speaker 5: That was very significant to me. because this is a 174 00:12:19,536 --> 00:12:22,566 Speaker 5: guy who tries to use intellectual defenses all the time. 175 00:12:23,486 --> 00:12:25,886 Speaker 5: And here I don't believe he could have faked it. 176 00:12:26,546 --> 00:12:30,106 Speaker 5: I didn't have that feeling that there was a manipulation 177 00:12:30,166 --> 00:12:33,606 Speaker 5: of my feelings at all. The actions spoke for themselves. 178 00:12:34,886 --> 00:12:38,896 Speaker 5: He was moved to the point of reacting. The nature 179 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:41,456 Speaker 5: of the relationship with Berger was entirely different than his 180 00:12:41,496 --> 00:12:47,076 Speaker 5: relationship with Ajit. It changed his life. Mm-hmm. And I 181 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:50,966 Speaker 5: think that that's enormously significant. You see, here we have 182 00:12:50,986 --> 00:12:51,346 Speaker 5: a guy. 183 00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:54,906 Speaker 1: Verna, Dr. Remus said, pushed Fred in a good way. 184 00:12:56,306 --> 00:13:04,826 Speaker 5: She demanded that he experience life. And his connection to 185 00:13:04,866 --> 00:13:08,286 Speaker 5: her was entirely different than his connection to Jean. To 186 00:13:08,406 --> 00:13:12,246 Speaker 5: get on with Verna, to be in love with Verna, 187 00:13:12,546 --> 00:13:16,186 Speaker 5: meant you had to get into yourself. She meditated. She 188 00:13:16,206 --> 00:13:20,246 Speaker 5: was on nutrition therapy. She started jogging. She, you know, 189 00:13:20,306 --> 00:13:25,406 Speaker 5: she lived. And she was his life. In fact, just 190 00:13:25,496 --> 00:13:28,406 Speaker 5: showed him the way that life could be. Now, I 191 00:13:28,456 --> 00:13:30,496 Speaker 5: don't know, you know, this is not to say, make 192 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:32,296 Speaker 5: comments as to, well, he would want to get rid 193 00:13:32,336 --> 00:13:34,376 Speaker 5: of Jean. I'm not saying that. I'm saying Verna meant 194 00:13:34,416 --> 00:13:36,776 Speaker 5: to him something that money couldn't buy. 195 00:13:38,856 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: His phrasing is arresting. Verna meant something money couldn't buy. 196 00:13:45,336 --> 00:13:48,376 Speaker 5: Verna and he fit together, both of them having lost 197 00:13:48,416 --> 00:13:51,936 Speaker 5: a partner and both of them having children. And she essentially, 198 00:13:53,216 --> 00:13:56,096 Speaker 5: knowing how to take children a lot better than he did. 199 00:13:57,496 --> 00:13:59,526 Speaker 5: It was a functional thing for them both. 200 00:14:00,846 --> 00:14:04,266 Speaker 1: He thought Verna had also helped Fred process Gene's death. 201 00:14:05,166 --> 00:14:08,166 Speaker 1: Things between Fred and Gene were so acrimonious at the end. 202 00:14:08,866 --> 00:14:12,586 Speaker 1: Gene's death was especially hard for Fred, Rima said. because 203 00:14:12,726 --> 00:14:15,386 Speaker 1: deep down he'd kind of wanted her to go away. 204 00:14:15,406 --> 00:14:20,406 Speaker 5: You know, his worst fear, which is to have your 205 00:14:20,486 --> 00:14:23,326 Speaker 5: thought played out in action. You know, you can hate somebody, 206 00:14:23,346 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 5: but if you find them dead, it's your worst fear. 207 00:14:25,126 --> 00:14:29,336 Speaker 5: You wouldn't want that to happen. So he was blown away. 208 00:14:30,156 --> 00:14:31,296 Speaker 1: That's where Verna came in. 209 00:14:32,296 --> 00:14:38,406 Speaker 5: She was a religious person. And he wasn't. She grounded him. 210 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:46,216 Speaker 5: She really gave him some kind of a basis for understanding. 211 00:14:47,096 --> 00:14:54,366 Speaker 5: An emotional basis, I'd say. He understands things very well, intellectually. Oh, 212 00:14:54,466 --> 00:14:57,146 Speaker 5: I know, he's very, very full. That's right. But emotionally, 213 00:14:58,166 --> 00:15:01,826 Speaker 5: it's difficult for him to sometimes get into his feelings. 214 00:15:02,686 --> 00:15:07,476 Speaker 5: He's not really had a lot of experience in communicating 215 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 5: feeling to other people about how he feels inside. 216 00:15:11,846 --> 00:15:15,126 Speaker 7: Difficult for him to express his emotions and his feelings? 217 00:15:16,686 --> 00:15:19,476 Speaker 5: I'd go farther than that. I'd say that often people 218 00:15:19,516 --> 00:15:23,196 Speaker 5: like Fred can express themselves pretty well, but deep inside 219 00:15:23,216 --> 00:15:28,336 Speaker 5: they know they're holding out. They're not really wide open, vulnerable, 220 00:15:28,356 --> 00:15:35,366 Speaker 5: that's the word. Difficult to be vulnerable. He was vulnerable 221 00:15:35,396 --> 00:15:37,266 Speaker 5: when he came into the office the second time. 222 00:15:38,786 --> 00:15:42,106 Speaker 1: Medical professionals who saw Fred right after the drownings told 223 00:15:42,146 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 1: the detectives about odd behavior they'd observed. Fred's vital signs 224 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:49,156 Speaker 1: were normal and he had no obvious injuries, but he 225 00:15:49,196 --> 00:15:52,396 Speaker 1: was acting really out of it, seemingly drifting in and 226 00:15:52,416 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: out of consciousness and refusing to answer questions. They'd suggested 227 00:15:56,676 --> 00:16:02,486 Speaker 1: to the detectives Fred might have been faking. The investigator 228 00:16:02,526 --> 00:16:05,826 Speaker 1: wanted to know if Fred knew enough about psychology, about 229 00:16:05,846 --> 00:16:08,456 Speaker 1: what was expected of him, to be able to act 230 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:11,336 Speaker 1: shocked and horrified when Verna and Doug died? 231 00:16:12,716 --> 00:16:17,216 Speaker 5: The answer is yes, but balance it against other things. 232 00:16:17,236 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 5: The odds are 0.01% that he psyched out the whole thing, 233 00:16:23,416 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 5: figured out how to react. There's nothing in his past 234 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:32,626 Speaker 5: that suggests that there's just that kind of psychopathology. That 235 00:16:32,666 --> 00:16:36,586 Speaker 5: makes a good TV story where the criminal is so clever. 236 00:16:42,686 --> 00:16:46,226 Speaker 1: Remus said Fred's love for Verna was genuine, and so 237 00:16:46,266 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: was his investment in his children. He didn't think the 238 00:16:49,716 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 1: family man persona was an act, and he definitely didn't 239 00:16:53,056 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 1: think Fred was smart enough to Jedi mind trick him. 240 00:16:57,036 --> 00:17:01,476 Speaker 1: But mostly, he approached the problem practically. Besides loving Verna, 241 00:17:02,356 --> 00:17:13,726 Speaker 1: Fred needed her. So why would he kill her? Law 242 00:17:13,746 --> 00:17:17,066 Speaker 1: enforcement was theorizing that Fred needed money more than he 243 00:17:17,126 --> 00:17:20,346 Speaker 1: needed Verna, that he was driven to kill in order 244 00:17:20,366 --> 00:17:24,436 Speaker 1: to collect insurance money. Looking at his finances, it's hard 245 00:17:24,456 --> 00:17:27,616 Speaker 1: to see a different source of income. He needed a 246 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,256 Speaker 1: change of fortune if he was going to keep living 247 00:17:30,296 --> 00:17:34,976 Speaker 1: the dream in Malibu. But law enforcement didn't necessarily understand 248 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 1: the real estate market in coastal Southern California. Here's Fred 249 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:43,286 Speaker 1: talking to one of the private investigators he hired explaining 250 00:17:43,366 --> 00:17:46,286 Speaker 1: how he got into the housing game. He started with 251 00:17:46,326 --> 00:17:49,066 Speaker 1: a place in the Silver Strand neighborhood in Oxnard. 252 00:17:50,046 --> 00:17:52,406 Speaker 6: We paid some enormous amount of money, like $ 18, 000 for 253 00:17:52,426 --> 00:17:55,976 Speaker 6: this house in Oxnard around Silver Strand. In 1972. 254 00:17:55,956 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 9: Yeah. 255 00:17:56,176 --> 00:17:59,596 Speaker 7: And we still have it to this day. 256 00:17:59,636 --> 00:18:02,936 Speaker 5: You still own the house over there? 257 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:03,296 Speaker 6: Yeah. 258 00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:05,986 Speaker 5: It's worth a little more now. 259 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:06,576 Speaker 10: Oh, yeah. 260 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:08,646 Speaker 5: It was appraised at $ 105, 000 or something like that. 261 00:18:08,706 --> 00:18:09,746 Speaker 7: Oh, Jesus Christ. 262 00:18:11,756 --> 00:18:15,706 Speaker 1: Fred's friend, Mike Killeen, told that same investigator that Fred's 263 00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:19,246 Speaker 1: instincts for real estate were the key to his financial solvency. 264 00:18:19,266 --> 00:18:24,546 Speaker 5: Oh, I can tell you this story. It's real easy. 265 00:18:24,566 --> 00:18:27,306 Speaker 9: Because you remember what happened between, like, 70 and 76 266 00:18:27,306 --> 00:18:29,366 Speaker 9: and 77. Things went crazy. 267 00:18:30,846 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 1: It was a story that hinged on the massive inflation 268 00:18:33,576 --> 00:18:35,016 Speaker 1: of home values in the region. 269 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:39,256 Speaker 9: When Fred and Jean moved back from Berkeley, they purchased 270 00:18:39,316 --> 00:18:42,536 Speaker 9: a house on Calpine. My recollection is that they paid 271 00:18:42,646 --> 00:18:45,366 Speaker 9: somewhere in the $ 50, 000 to $ 60, 000 range for that house. 272 00:18:46,146 --> 00:18:48,866 Speaker 9: I don't know how creative he was in financing, but again, 273 00:18:49,366 --> 00:18:52,226 Speaker 9: the guy doesn't have to be wealthy to put that together. 274 00:18:53,126 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 9: And he put it together. He had income property in Oxnard. 275 00:18:57,616 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 5: He had income property in Malibu. 276 00:18:59,936 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 9: And Burma had some income property in Malibu. And with 277 00:19:04,556 --> 00:19:08,406 Speaker 9: that going on, that's how I suppose he would pay 278 00:19:08,446 --> 00:19:10,726 Speaker 9: his mortgage. And as far as I knew, he probably 279 00:19:10,766 --> 00:19:12,646 Speaker 9: had some resources to draw from and a little bit 280 00:19:12,706 --> 00:19:13,186 Speaker 9: of savings. 281 00:19:14,006 --> 00:19:17,326 Speaker 5: Was Prid all consumed with making the almighty dollar? 282 00:19:17,986 --> 00:19:20,526 Speaker 9: The man has the soul of a poet, not of 283 00:19:20,586 --> 00:19:23,606 Speaker 9: a raving businessman who thinks that the dollar is the 284 00:19:23,656 --> 00:19:27,496 Speaker 9: most important thing. But he's not a stupid man. He 285 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:30,376 Speaker 9: certainly realized the value of his prudent investments early on. 286 00:19:33,596 --> 00:19:38,746 Speaker 1: Mike's point? Fred might look overextended to the investigators, but 287 00:19:38,786 --> 00:19:42,326 Speaker 1: all these properties were working for him, making him money, 288 00:19:43,316 --> 00:20:00,226 Speaker 1: and home values were surging. The End For months, Fred 289 00:20:00,276 --> 00:20:03,206 Speaker 1: sat in a jail cell in Santa Barbara. He made 290 00:20:03,246 --> 00:20:06,086 Speaker 1: a lot of notes. Long lists of things for his 291 00:20:06,106 --> 00:20:09,426 Speaker 1: defense team to do, impassioned rebuttals of the witness statements 292 00:20:09,466 --> 00:20:12,966 Speaker 1: against him, lists of reasons why the accusations were so 293 00:20:13,146 --> 00:20:18,366 Speaker 1: boneheaded in the first place. Law enforcement was overreaching, out 294 00:20:18,406 --> 00:20:23,206 Speaker 1: of control. Quote, bad news, coaching investigation targets and putting 295 00:20:23,266 --> 00:20:27,526 Speaker 1: words in their mouth, a no-no, unquote. One list he 296 00:20:27,566 --> 00:20:33,576 Speaker 1: made was titled, Why not at Santa Cruz Island, January 2nd, 1981? 297 00:20:33,576 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: There were 38 numbered reasons why not. Number six, could 298 00:20:38,976 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 1: have waited till we were in Mexico and had them 299 00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:45,486 Speaker 1: done in by bandits. Number 12, would have picked a 300 00:20:45,506 --> 00:20:49,546 Speaker 1: boat that sank. Number 14, would have beat them up 301 00:20:49,626 --> 00:20:54,106 Speaker 1: on rocks to mask anything I would have done. Number 15, 302 00:20:54,106 --> 00:20:56,706 Speaker 1: could have cut them and had sharks in 10 minutes. 303 00:20:57,766 --> 00:21:00,276 Speaker 1: Number 16, Could have had them done in on a 304 00:21:00,336 --> 00:21:03,416 Speaker 1: secluded part of Malibu Beach. Could have been jumped by 305 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:10,066 Speaker 1: dopers or... Number 17. Could have had them kidnapped. Number 18. 306 00:21:10,066 --> 00:21:12,246 Speaker 1: Why would I want to ruin a dream boat trip? 307 00:21:13,506 --> 00:21:16,106 Speaker 1: Could have waited till everyone wanted to go home. Or 308 00:21:16,206 --> 00:21:19,656 Speaker 1: I was ready to go home. Fred wasn't the only 309 00:21:19,766 --> 00:21:23,536 Speaker 1: one strategizing. He had a robust defense team, led by 310 00:21:23,576 --> 00:21:26,786 Speaker 1: a high-powered defense attorney. A few of his friends from 311 00:21:26,806 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: Malibu and one of his brothers were also helping. And 312 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 1: so was Fred's friend Bill Fairfield, the lawyer who was 313 00:21:33,296 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: part of all those hot tub parties back in the 314 00:21:35,236 --> 00:21:38,576 Speaker 1: Gene era, who'd advised him and Verna on estate planning 315 00:21:38,976 --> 00:21:43,016 Speaker 1: and set up the trust. Here they are troubleshooting Fred's defense, 316 00:21:43,626 --> 00:21:48,446 Speaker 1: addressing the things that made him seem guilty. The awkward 317 00:21:48,506 --> 00:21:50,366 Speaker 1: facts they were going to have to work around. 318 00:21:50,386 --> 00:21:56,406 Speaker 10: And our purpose in the defense being congregated here this 319 00:21:56,466 --> 00:22:03,136 Speaker 10: morning is to discuss some ideas and hopefully bring out 320 00:22:03,176 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 10: some suggestions that may be of benefit to Fred's defense 321 00:22:09,976 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 10: in connection with the upcoming trial. 322 00:22:11,736 --> 00:22:16,606 Speaker 1: One of the things that certainly has come to my 323 00:22:16,626 --> 00:22:17,066 Speaker 1: mind is. 324 00:22:24,896 --> 00:22:25,376 Speaker 10: And that has. 325 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 11: Certainly become a major issue, is the swimming ability of 326 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:35,646 Speaker 11: both Doug and Verna. Have any of you experienced or 327 00:22:35,746 --> 00:22:38,606 Speaker 11: visualized Doug in any type of panic situation before? 328 00:22:38,626 --> 00:22:46,106 Speaker 5: He was a hyper kid, wasn't he? High stroke. Perpetual motion. 329 00:22:46,826 --> 00:22:48,996 Speaker 5: Which would indicate to. 330 00:22:48,936 --> 00:22:50,696 Speaker 12: Me, whether it ties or not, I don't know, but 331 00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:52,896 Speaker 12: it would indicate to me that under a situation of panic, 332 00:22:52,936 --> 00:22:56,626 Speaker 12: he would tend to react a little bit. 333 00:22:56,546 --> 00:22:57,366 Speaker 5: More than the average. 334 00:22:57,446 --> 00:22:59,086 Speaker 8: Yeah, but a lot of kids would. I mean, my 335 00:22:59,126 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 8: kid two days ago got turned over by a wave 336 00:23:01,286 --> 00:23:03,096 Speaker 8: and was in a terrible shape. You know, this was 337 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:07,296 Speaker 8: three feet from me and was in a panic. You know, so. 338 00:23:07,336 --> 00:23:10,476 Speaker 12: But if your kid is just the average kid in 339 00:23:10,516 --> 00:23:14,786 Speaker 12: terms of energy, perpetual motion of Doug, maybe Doug would 340 00:23:14,826 --> 00:23:15,506 Speaker 12: react even. 341 00:23:15,666 --> 00:23:16,006 Speaker 5: Yes. 342 00:23:16,826 --> 00:23:19,466 Speaker 3: Crash about even a bit more, which, again, is why 343 00:23:19,486 --> 00:23:20,346 Speaker 3: I wonder about that. 344 00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:22,126 Speaker 5: I mean. 345 00:23:22,806 --> 00:23:25,586 Speaker 12: You can come up with 10, 12, 20 ways, perhaps, 346 00:23:25,626 --> 00:23:26,886 Speaker 12: that Doug could have been hit in the head. 347 00:23:26,906 --> 00:23:32,146 Speaker 5: The oar. The camera action. Fred falling over as they're 348 00:23:32,166 --> 00:23:33,086 Speaker 5: all falling out of the boat. 349 00:23:33,146 --> 00:23:38,196 Speaker 12: Burnham grabbing something, and maybe that something was Doug, and pushed. 350 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:39,336 Speaker 9: Doug down into the boat. 351 00:23:40,616 --> 00:23:44,656 Speaker 1: Awkward fact number two. Fred could really swim. 352 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:49,416 Speaker 8: You know, to the Machiavellian mind, here is a man 353 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:54,016 Speaker 8: who is more expert in the water than you know, 99% 354 00:23:54,016 --> 00:23:57,456 Speaker 8: of the population. So he knows exactly, I mean, he 355 00:23:57,536 --> 00:24:00,056 Speaker 8: is in his element when he's in the water. So 356 00:24:00,116 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 8: therefore he knows what to do to, I mean, if 357 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:09,336 Speaker 8: he wanted, in calculating fashion, right, to do that. He 358 00:24:09,406 --> 00:24:13,346 Speaker 8: knows what to do. And this could rebound badly against 359 00:24:13,386 --> 00:24:14,666 Speaker 8: him as a possibility. 360 00:24:15,546 --> 00:24:17,466 Speaker 3: It could be used in arguments to show that's why 361 00:24:17,526 --> 00:24:19,706 Speaker 3: Fred survived. He was in the water a long damn time. 362 00:24:19,886 --> 00:24:20,146 Speaker 5: Okay. 363 00:24:20,166 --> 00:24:22,086 Speaker 3: And he was And he swam with those people a 364 00:24:22,166 --> 00:24:24,266 Speaker 3: long ways. And that's, I don't know, I couldn't have 365 00:24:24,286 --> 00:24:26,686 Speaker 3: done it, you know. I think I'd have bought it 366 00:24:26,726 --> 00:24:28,346 Speaker 3: long before. He was in the water up to at 367 00:24:28,366 --> 00:24:29,906 Speaker 3: least an hour, as far as we can tell, maybe 368 00:24:29,926 --> 00:24:32,026 Speaker 3: an hour and a half. So, I mean, I think, 369 00:24:32,066 --> 00:24:34,826 Speaker 3: you know, you can use it to cut both ways, but. 370 00:24:34,726 --> 00:24:35,386 Speaker 10: It's a concern. 371 00:24:36,226 --> 00:24:39,486 Speaker 1: Awkward fact number three. Lady the dog. 372 00:24:40,216 --> 00:24:41,826 Speaker 5: He was able to save his dog, wasn't he? 373 00:24:41,976 --> 00:24:43,396 Speaker 10: The dog was able to save his dog. 374 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:43,846 Speaker 5: Oh, the dog. 375 00:24:43,956 --> 00:24:45,016 Speaker 3: Okay, well, okay. 376 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 8: But the rock wall is exactly that, a sheer rock wall. 377 00:24:50,576 --> 00:24:55,416 Speaker 8: And so, you know, so the idea, I don't know, 378 00:24:55,466 --> 00:25:00,346 Speaker 8: maybe you, as I say, physically, the idea of shoving 379 00:25:00,386 --> 00:25:01,786 Speaker 8: somebody up is difficult. 380 00:25:02,126 --> 00:25:03,606 Speaker 10: I just lost one of them. 381 00:25:04,106 --> 00:25:06,826 Speaker 1: Okay, so no one could really explain how Lady got 382 00:25:06,886 --> 00:25:07,166 Speaker 1: up there. 383 00:25:07,186 --> 00:25:08,606 Speaker 10: Hmm. 384 00:25:10,066 --> 00:25:15,806 Speaker 1: Awkward fact number four. Fred, his whole manner, it was wooden. 385 00:25:17,106 --> 00:25:19,436 Speaker 5: Fred comes over on that tape to the officer. 386 00:25:19,456 --> 00:25:24,906 Speaker 10: It's a very calculating and deliberate with respect to his story. 387 00:25:25,286 --> 00:25:26,456 Speaker 5: Hand, speech type? 388 00:25:26,936 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 3: Well, for the most part. Like in the first hour, 389 00:25:29,736 --> 00:25:33,336 Speaker 3: hour and a half of the interrogation, he rarely breaks 390 00:25:33,376 --> 00:25:36,476 Speaker 3: down at all. Except when he mentions Verna's name, when 391 00:25:36,496 --> 00:25:38,576 Speaker 3: he mentions Doug's name, he does appear a little bit 392 00:25:38,616 --> 00:25:39,146 Speaker 3: choked up. 393 00:25:39,536 --> 00:25:40,016 Speaker 5: It's fleeting. 394 00:25:40,166 --> 00:25:41,786 Speaker 3: It's just there for a moment, and then you see 395 00:25:41,826 --> 00:25:44,706 Speaker 3: he's back to normal. Fred's a very reserved individual. 396 00:25:44,886 --> 00:25:45,686 Speaker 5: He's been very. 397 00:25:45,526 --> 00:25:48,526 Speaker 3: Calculating by nature, and he also knew what those guys meant. 398 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:54,276 Speaker 1: In pretrial hearings, they said, Fred was coming off as stiff, aloof. 399 00:25:55,576 --> 00:25:57,236 Speaker 3: He wanted to smile a little bit more, look a 400 00:25:57,536 --> 00:26:01,076 Speaker 3: little bit more relaxed when he's sitting there at the bench. 401 00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:04,416 Speaker 1: At a bail hearing, where he was denied release, Fred 402 00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:05,696 Speaker 1: had shown no emotion. 403 00:26:05,856 --> 00:26:08,896 Speaker 10: If he puts his hands up to his hand and 404 00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:09,856 Speaker 10: shakes his head. 405 00:26:09,896 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 5: Can they be sane? 406 00:26:11,496 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 3: His expression's changing on its own. 407 00:26:14,126 --> 00:26:15,786 Speaker 5: I wanted him to be a little bit pissed off. 408 00:26:16,536 --> 00:26:18,216 Speaker 8: Now, when you get a jury up there and Fred 409 00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:20,736 Speaker 8: gets on the stand to testify in his own defense, indeed, 410 00:26:20,776 --> 00:26:23,056 Speaker 8: if he comes across with some of what you've just said, 411 00:26:23,376 --> 00:26:28,486 Speaker 8: almost cool, calculating, cool as a cucumber, matter of fact, 412 00:26:28,586 --> 00:26:29,506 Speaker 8: except for. 413 00:26:29,586 --> 00:26:33,586 Speaker 3: You know, emotional chokes, you know, the jury could say, you. 414 00:26:35,386 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 8: Know, this guy is so bloody calculating that it's conceivable. 415 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 1: They were hesitant, though, to give Fred too much direction. 416 00:26:45,046 --> 00:26:47,106 Speaker 1: especially if the prosecution was going to put on a 417 00:26:47,146 --> 00:26:49,606 Speaker 1: case saying he was a phony and a fake. 418 00:26:50,806 --> 00:26:51,306 Speaker 5: No, no, no. 419 00:26:51,326 --> 00:26:52,936 Speaker 8: Well, then that's, you know, that's the worst thing you 420 00:26:52,976 --> 00:26:55,376 Speaker 8: could do, to say, you know, give us a movie 421 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:56,256 Speaker 8: of the week performance. 422 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:59,376 Speaker 12: Well, maybe he takes value for that, but the thing is, 423 00:26:59,416 --> 00:27:02,536 Speaker 12: he can react to it. He can react without being contrived. 424 00:27:02,676 --> 00:27:04,906 Speaker 3: In this tape, he was stifling it. He was trying 425 00:27:04,926 --> 00:27:07,326 Speaker 3: to push it down, I think, to enhance his communication 426 00:27:07,346 --> 00:27:09,826 Speaker 3: with the officers. But I think what needs to be 427 00:27:10,146 --> 00:27:12,846 Speaker 3: done is to encourage Fred to allow it to well up, let. 428 00:27:12,766 --> 00:27:13,056 Speaker 9: It come out. 429 00:27:14,326 --> 00:27:16,286 Speaker 3: Get a little bit more emotional, and you feel it. 430 00:27:16,306 --> 00:27:17,636 Speaker 5: Let that come out. Display it. 431 00:27:17,736 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 3: Anytime you want him to break down, you just march 432 00:27:19,936 --> 00:27:22,056 Speaker 3: those three kids in the back of the courtroom, and 433 00:27:22,096 --> 00:27:22,936 Speaker 3: he will be in tears. 434 00:27:24,176 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 10: In essence, what your comments are, you feel that Fred's 435 00:27:28,236 --> 00:27:30,386 Speaker 10: state of mind is so bad because of all of 436 00:27:30,466 --> 00:27:32,966 Speaker 10: the tragedies that's happened in his life that he's basically 437 00:27:33,006 --> 00:27:36,946 Speaker 10: just kind of prepared himself. It's not a guy that said, well, geez, 438 00:27:36,986 --> 00:27:38,046 Speaker 10: I hope I get away with this. 439 00:27:38,766 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 5: It's a guy that's saying, what next? What next? 440 00:27:43,666 --> 00:27:48,856 Speaker 1: Awkward fact number five. The elephant in the room. Jean, 441 00:27:49,396 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 1: Fred's first wife, who also drowned under murky circumstances. 442 00:27:54,376 --> 00:27:58,366 Speaker 5: Is Jean going to be admitted? We're working on it. 443 00:27:58,646 --> 00:27:59,406 Speaker 5: What do you think? 444 00:27:59,886 --> 00:28:02,566 Speaker 10: No, I don't think it is. What would you say 445 00:28:02,606 --> 00:28:03,066 Speaker 10: right now, Bill? 446 00:28:03,086 --> 00:28:04,726 Speaker 5: That's what you're thinking is due? 447 00:28:04,926 --> 00:28:06,486 Speaker 9: Yeah, but how can you keep it in? 448 00:28:06,946 --> 00:28:07,186 Speaker 5: How? 449 00:28:07,726 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 9: Well, the. 450 00:28:09,386 --> 00:28:12,266 Speaker 3: The thing is, the judicial system does not allow evidence 451 00:28:12,326 --> 00:28:14,286 Speaker 3: of prior crimes to come in just to show that 452 00:28:14,306 --> 00:28:18,086 Speaker 3: there's a criminal disposition on behalf of the defendant. And 453 00:28:18,146 --> 00:28:20,666 Speaker 3: it's more inclined to commit crimes than anyone else. Sometimes 454 00:28:20,686 --> 00:28:23,606 Speaker 3: you get an initial common scheme, plan or design, intent 455 00:28:24,216 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 3: or knowledge. 456 00:28:25,336 --> 00:28:29,336 Speaker 12: This will all depend upon rulings by the judge as 457 00:28:29,356 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 12: to whether it's going to be in or not. 458 00:28:30,776 --> 00:28:32,456 Speaker 5: It's a discretionary type of thing. 459 00:28:34,296 --> 00:28:36,936 Speaker 1: The outcome of the trial might turn on whether the 460 00:28:36,976 --> 00:28:40,226 Speaker 1: judge allowed the DA to talk about Gene If the 461 00:28:40,286 --> 00:28:43,056 Speaker 1: jury saw a pattern and thought that Fred was killing 462 00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:46,116 Speaker 1: his wives, that would be tough for Fred to overcome. 463 00:28:46,136 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 8: But there's no doubt that the prosecution has to, has 464 00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:57,276 Speaker 8: to bring in the gene, death, and some of the 465 00:28:57,316 --> 00:29:03,146 Speaker 8: insurance history to prove their case. I mean, if they don't, 466 00:29:03,826 --> 00:29:05,706 Speaker 8: their case is blown out of the water. 467 00:29:05,726 --> 00:29:08,646 Speaker 5: Well, it's severely impaired, let's put it that way. You 468 00:29:08,666 --> 00:29:12,646 Speaker 5: still have Fred's story, whether or not it's credible or not. 469 00:29:14,146 --> 00:29:17,686 Speaker 1: The outcome of the trial would depend almost entirely on Fred, 470 00:29:18,166 --> 00:29:20,896 Speaker 1: the only witness to the drownings of Verna and Doug. 471 00:29:21,916 --> 00:29:24,836 Speaker 1: And Fred was confident in his ability to explain the 472 00:29:24,916 --> 00:29:29,656 Speaker 1: strange circumstances of their deaths. After all, he had experience. 473 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,586 Speaker 1: He'd done it before. He'd silenced the rumors stirring in 474 00:29:34,626 --> 00:29:39,246 Speaker 1: Malibu after Jean's death. He'd even managed to persuade one 475 00:29:39,266 --> 00:29:44,386 Speaker 1: of her best friends, Verna, to marry him. But this time, 476 00:29:44,646 --> 00:29:49,846 Speaker 1: he'd be facing a jury, 12 strangers, and a formidable family. adversary, 477 00:29:50,966 --> 00:30:03,196 Speaker 1: Stan Rodin, the Santa Barbara DA. Coming up on the 478 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:07,476 Speaker 1: next episode of Lost Hills, Fred's trial draws a crowd. 479 00:30:08,306 --> 00:30:11,156 Speaker 13: People like stories about rich people and rich people doing 480 00:30:11,236 --> 00:30:15,776 Speaker 13: bad things. You know, this is mythology. If somebody got 481 00:30:15,816 --> 00:30:21,176 Speaker 13: life insurance and killed their wife in a glamorous situation 482 00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:25,456 Speaker 13: on a yacht, you know, on a holiday weekend, wow, 483 00:30:25,516 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 13: that's a big deal. 484 00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:29,036 Speaker 5: And look, we've got this highly technical evidence. 485 00:30:28,736 --> 00:30:32,576 Speaker 13: About it because it's, you know, we're such a hotshot prosecution. 486 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:32,716 Speaker 5: That we can do this. 487 00:30:33,776 --> 00:30:47,136 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 9, Prejudicial Effect. Lost Hills is 488 00:30:47,216 --> 00:30:50,576 Speaker 1: written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created by 489 00:30:50,656 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 1: me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and 490 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 491 00:30:57,536 --> 00:31:00,186 Speaker 1: the whole season ad-free and get early access to the 492 00:31:00,226 --> 00:31:03,746 Speaker 1: final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills 493 00:31:03,766 --> 00:31:06,226 Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.