Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, via fam, It's Mandy here with another episode
Speaker 1: of Brown Ambition and today's conversation. Y'all, I cannot wait
Speaker 1: for you to hear it. We continue to send love
Speaker 1: and lots of hugs to Tiffany and send her all
Speaker 1: the healing and positive vibes that she could need. As always,
Speaker 1: if you guys want to send her a note of support,
Speaker 1: you can find her at the Budgetiesta on all channels.
Speaker 2: We love you, Tiffany.
Speaker 1: As y'all know, I have been talking up Rachica til
Speaker 1: sheien ever since I was turned on to her work
Speaker 1: by her viral article in the Harvard Business Review called
Speaker 1: stop telling women that we have imposter Syndrome. I will
Speaker 1: put another link to that article in the show notes.
Speaker 1: But more importantly, Rachika has a new book coming out,
Speaker 1: and it is truly extraordinary. I would say it's required
Speaker 1: reading for anyone in a leadership position, really for anyone
Speaker 1: in general. But if you even own a teeny tiny
Speaker 1: fraction of a percentage of decisions at a company that
Speaker 1: could impact what it's like to work there for women
Speaker 1: of color, this book has to be on your reading list.
Speaker 1: It needs to be at your desk, on your desk,
Speaker 1: share it with a friend. It's called Inclusion on Purpose,
Speaker 1: an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work.
Speaker 1: It is out this month, and we are joined today
Speaker 1: by the author herself, Ruchica Tulsian. Ruchka is so multifaceted.
Speaker 1: She and I share a background in business journalism, which
Speaker 1: is just one of the many connections that we've realized
Speaker 1: we had. She also spent some time working in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: although now she is calling us from her new home
Speaker 1: for the past nine years on the West Coast in Seattle.
Speaker 1: Cheka is an author, a keynote speaker, and she founded
Speaker 1: her own company called Candor, which is an inclusion strategy practice.
Speaker 1: As a former international business journalist, Ruchica's writing has appeared
Speaker 1: in places like The New York Times, a Harvard Business Review,
Speaker 1: and of course, her brand new book, Inclusion on Purpose,
Speaker 1: is out on shelves now. Please go pick up a copy.
Speaker 1: So today Ratchika and I sat down to talk about
Speaker 1: the themes in her book, as well as her experience
Speaker 1: actually being a change agent, going into companies as a
Speaker 1: consultant to help them figure out how to do DEE
Speaker 1: and I initiatives correctly and I mean, honestly, she and
Speaker 1: I just connected on so many levels, and I think
Speaker 1: first and foremost are general. You know, we were generally
Speaker 1: in agreement that we can still be optimistic, that there
Speaker 1: are places where we can feel included, we can feel
Speaker 1: like we have equal opportunity for success. They unfortunately are
Speaker 1: not as common as we'd all like them to be.
Speaker 1: But we realistically kind of look at what it's like
Speaker 1: to be women of color with ambition, wanting to move
Speaker 1: up in today's society, in today's world, and what it
Speaker 1: can actually take for us to get there and not
Speaker 1: get burnt out along the way. So, without further ado,
Speaker 1: I will get out of my own way and welcome
Speaker 1: our guest today again. Her name is Rachika till sheian.
Speaker 1: To find out more about Rechika, go to Inclusion on
Speaker 1: Purpose dot co, and of course check the show notes
Speaker 1: for all the links and where to find her book
Speaker 1: and find out more about her incredible work. Here's my
Speaker 1: conversation with Rechika. All right, Va, fam, I have been
Speaker 1: talking about today's guests for what feels like weeks, and
Speaker 1: I am so excited to finally be sitting across virtually
Speaker 1: from who a woman who I feel like you kind
Speaker 1: of know when you're immediately going to connect with someone,
Speaker 1: and just you have the same philosophy about life, you
Speaker 1: kind of see things through a similar lens. And within
Speaker 1: the first ten pages of reading her brand new book,
Speaker 1: Inclusion on Purpose, I was just like, I, Rechika has
Speaker 1: to be on Brown Ambition and we have to be
Speaker 1: friends and it's going to happen, and this is all happening,
Speaker 1: and Rechika told Shan is actually here.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, Mandy, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: And you actually are aware of brown ambition, which is
Speaker 1: extraordinary to me. It tells me we are branding ourselves correctly.
Speaker 1: If you found us, that is what we want.
Speaker 3: You are And I just want to say that it
Speaker 3: is It's a really lonely endeavor to be a brown entrepreneur,
Speaker 3: right and build a business, a brown and black entrepreneur,
Speaker 3: and you know, essentially part of a demographic that is
Speaker 3: often you know, really overlooked and under sponsored and underestimated
Speaker 3: and underfunded. And knowing that there's a community out there
Speaker 3: building you know through really really like tall hardship is like,
Speaker 3: I mean, what more can you need? Right? So please
Speaker 3: know that the community you're building is really very special
Speaker 3: and so necessary, and of course it's my pleasure and
Speaker 3: honor to be here. And of course, in preparation of
Speaker 3: this interview, when I when I listened to Stacy Abram's interview,
Speaker 3: that was that was like a very special, meaningful experience.
Speaker 3: I mean, firstly, is there anything this person cannot do right?
Speaker 3: Like just help? It liked not a thing, but also
Speaker 3: so thoughtful and insightful the way the questions you asked
Speaker 3: her and her co author Heather I mean, it was
Speaker 3: just you did such a good job, Bendy.
Speaker 1: Thank you well, thank you so much. And what I
Speaker 1: love about you. Actually listened to your interview with Brene Brown,
Speaker 1: you and your friend and fellow colleague, Jodyanne Burry.
Speaker 3: Is that correct, Jodyane Berry?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jodyanne Berry, excellent work. I'm also trying to get
Speaker 1: her on Brown Ambition. So if you want to text her,
Speaker 1: she's probably snowboarding or something.
Speaker 2: But get all the show.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I will text her right away, of course.
Speaker 1: No, but this is the R Chica Show, so we're
Speaker 1: going to focus on you. Tell me about this book. Well, first,
Speaker 1: let me tell you my first my first reaction to
Speaker 1: reading the book was I was so grateful to it
Speaker 1: because a part of my story, which if you've listened
Speaker 1: to Brown Ambition, you know, I spent five years in
Speaker 1: a senior leadership position managing a team, and you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily a Google or an Amazon, but it
Speaker 1: was a relatively big fintech company. And I just remember
Speaker 1: when I, you know, got that job at like twenty eight,
Speaker 1: twenty nine, feeling this real sense of responsibility, like I
Speaker 1: can't pick this up.
Speaker 2: I'm a black.
Speaker 1: Woman in charge. I get to hire people, I get
Speaker 1: to review resumes. I'm going to try to do it
Speaker 1: with the e I'm going to try to do things right.
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to use my little, you know,
Speaker 1: corner of influence, my little you know, my little zone
Speaker 1: of influence, and take small incremental steps toward making this
Speaker 1: company more inclusive without even telling them.
Speaker 2: I didn't tell them.
Speaker 1: I was like a covert operator, like, oh, there's going
Speaker 1: to be some black women in this team, and you
Speaker 1: know all that. And what I love about your book
Speaker 1: is that it really feels like it was written for
Speaker 1: people in places of power and not necessarily to women
Speaker 1: of color. We already know it's hard we already know
Speaker 1: how challenging it can be. And when you were approaching
Speaker 1: this book, I mean, I know that's so much of
Speaker 1: what you talk about. You have a firm where you
Speaker 1: consult and provide trainings to corporations, but talk to me
Speaker 1: about intentionally speaking to the people who have the power
Speaker 1: about this issue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was actually a very complicated, you know, especially
Speaker 3: when this book was in proposal stage. It was really
Speaker 3: complicated because what happens is when you're shopping a book
Speaker 3: proposal around is you need to have a really clear
Speaker 3: idea of and you need to literally stay like who
Speaker 3: are you trying to reach out to? And for me,
Speaker 3: it was everyone, you know, I really I wanted women
Speaker 3: of color to be able to see this and feel
Speaker 3: seen and read it and feel validated because in honestly,
Speaker 3: every author, in some way, shape or form, writes the
Speaker 3: book that they needed and didn't have. And that's how
Speaker 3: I felt when I even conceptualized the idea of inclusion
Speaker 3: on purpose, which by the way, only came to light
Speaker 3: because a woman of color agent reached out to me
Speaker 3: years ago and said, Hey, I read this one article
Speaker 3: you wrote on Harvard Business Review. It was not a
Speaker 3: viral article. It was not like the you know, imposter
Speaker 3: syndrome one which I feel so proud to co author
Speaker 3: with Jodiane, But it was a very it was it
Speaker 3: was an article that was very meaningful to me about
Speaker 3: corporate diversity efforts leaving out women of color. And she
Speaker 3: reached out to me, She's like, have you thought about
Speaker 3: writing a book, another book, a traditionally published one. Do
Speaker 3: you have an agent? And I was like, no, of course,
Speaker 3: not like I have no, I don't know me really,
Speaker 3: I mean, what could I contribute to this?
Speaker 1: But you'd already published a book before, so you independently
Speaker 1: published your first book essentially.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was blogging for Forbes and they were
Speaker 3: trying to They were essentially, you know, experimenting with an
Speaker 3: ebook platform, and so the diversity advantage was part of that,
Speaker 3: but not at all. A traditional publishing process by any
Speaker 3: means no agent, no you know, which, of course is
Speaker 3: a mistake by the way, for anyone listening, if you
Speaker 3: are planning to publish a book in any way, shape
Speaker 3: or form, whether even if you publish, if eventually decide
Speaker 3: to publish independently and self published, it's always a good
Speaker 3: idea to at least talk to an agent anyway, So.
Speaker 1: That that's me.
Speaker 2: I'm your audience right now, keep talking.
Speaker 3: Oh and I'm you know, and I'm happy to I
Speaker 3: By the way, when I was done with my book proposal,
Speaker 3: I sent it to a lot of people. I sent
Speaker 3: it specifically to women of color. I said, use what
Speaker 3: you need from this, do what you want with it.
Speaker 3: I mean, don't put it on the internet. But you know,
Speaker 3: however it can help please because we have to pass
Speaker 3: the word on, we need to support each other. But
Speaker 3: so back to the starticle, I mean, you know, back
Speaker 3: to this agent. She reaches out, She's like, do you
Speaker 3: want to write this book? And I'm like, okay, I guess.
Speaker 3: And then as it started coming to life and I
Speaker 3: thought about who I want this book to be for.
Speaker 3: I really wanted it to be for everyone. I wanted
Speaker 3: it to be again for women of color, validating our
Speaker 3: experience because you know, we experienced so much of gaslighting, experience,
Speaker 3: so much off. You know, that was that wasn't at
Speaker 3: all what happened. That wasn't my intention. Like what matters
Speaker 3: is my intention was good. So I'm sorry that I
Speaker 3: behaved in a way that you found to be biased
Speaker 3: or racist. Or sexist, but that wasn't my intention. So
Speaker 3: it was like that really hard to balance both worlds off.
Speaker 3: How do you write a book that validates the experiences
Speaker 3: of women of color, which I really hope you know,
Speaker 3: when women of color read the book, and again not
Speaker 3: a monolith, but when women of color, brown and black
Speaker 3: women read the book, they feel okay, I feel seen.
Speaker 3: That wasn't just in my head. I tried specifically to
Speaker 3: seek out examples of you know, where it wasn't like
Speaker 3: a horrific example where it would be like a legal
Speaker 3: case or whatever it is, which obviously is very important,
Speaker 3: but I was trying to find those very subtle under
Speaker 3: the table slights and biases and you know, what we
Speaker 3: commonly know is microaggressions. Although in the book I talk
Speaker 3: about why I don't like that word, but those every
Speaker 3: day ways of how it shows up and you feel slighted.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to capture that. And then I also, yes,
Speaker 3: absolutely wanted to talk to people in power and leadership
Speaker 3: and you know, positions of influence and privilege, because at
Speaker 3: the end of the day, this should never be our
Speaker 3: problem to solve, not even close.
Speaker 1: If anyone if you're if you're worried about anyone feeling seen.
Speaker 1: All you have to do is read the forward of
Speaker 1: the book by Igioma Aluma. So how you say, uhlo
Speaker 1: oh see you realize I read and I do not
Speaker 1: say things out loud enough, and I really ought to
Speaker 1: not do that. But the forward of this book, I mean,
Speaker 1: that whole that that that's what grabbed me. And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, so we're gonna go there, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you you do. I mean, the book really can be
Speaker 1: for anyone. But what I love is it holds the
Speaker 1: people who have the power accountable. And I'm curious, Well,
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your work. So you've
Speaker 1: launched this consulting firm for how long now? And tell
Speaker 1: me about what you do and what has been some
Speaker 1: of the feedback you've gotten from people in power and
Speaker 1: leadership that company who so often you know, don't look
Speaker 1: like us as to why things take so long for
Speaker 1: them to get it together. If you can comment on
Speaker 1: that'd be great.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Well, firstly, when you talked about how
Speaker 3: you were at a fintech company, it took me right
Speaker 3: back to really what launched my work in diversity, equity
Speaker 3: and inclusion well before it was trendy, and about a
Speaker 3: decade ago, I was at a tech company and it
Speaker 3: was a very very painful and lonely experience in that
Speaker 3: in that company, I was the only woman of color
Speaker 3: in my department. I felt very hyper visible and invisible
Speaker 3: at the same time, which you know, academic research shows
Speaker 3: is very much the experience of women of color when
Speaker 3: we're the only, the first, one of the few, the
Speaker 3: different a Shonda Rhimes calls us the fods. So I,
Speaker 3: uh first, only different.
Speaker 1: Oh right, okay, that's awesome. Yeah right, it is hyper
Speaker 1: It's like that that even what you just said, it's
Speaker 1: like the same thing. You feel hyper visible and invisible
Speaker 1: at the same time. Hyper visible. For me, it was
Speaker 1: like hyper visible when I screwed something up, like everyone
Speaker 1: was going to know and I was going to be,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, held back by it, and then invisible
Speaker 1: when the fun stuff came along, is how.
Speaker 3: I told Y. Yeah, very painful, very lonely, and I
Speaker 3: think exacerbated by the fact that our laws and our
Speaker 3: you know, the way HR operates. And you know, I'm
Speaker 3: so glad you brought up Iguoma's forward, which by the way,
Speaker 3: was just I mean, when I read it, I had chills,
Speaker 3: I had tears. I didn't, you know, and I went
Speaker 3: with BacT Press is an academic publisher, you know, by
Speaker 3: sort of traditions. So I didn't curse in the book.
Speaker 3: And you know, I wrote to my editor, I was like, Hi,
Speaker 3: so it says the list, and I know, you know,
Speaker 3: and and just in general in my own writing, I
Speaker 3: don't really curse. So I was like, what is can
Speaker 3: we keep this in because I think it's really necessary
Speaker 3: and she's like, yeah, given that there was a literal list, yes,
Speaker 3: so I've lost, like I've lost my trade of thought.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a very it's a very painful, lonely
Speaker 3: existence and often you don't know where you can turn.
Speaker 3: And one of the reasons why I then, you know,
Speaker 3: I went through this experience. I quit, I leaped into entrepreneurship,
Speaker 3: didn't know what was coming, had somewhat of a safety
Speaker 3: net because I'd been saving. And then I also, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm married to a spouse who works in tech, worked
Speaker 3: at continues to work in tech, so I could take
Speaker 3: that leap in a way that I know that for
Speaker 3: so many women of color I've spoken to since and
Speaker 3: even for the book, it's very very tough, and I
Speaker 3: acknowledged my privilege being able to do that. And as
Speaker 3: I as I got into consulting also completely in an
Speaker 3: inadvertent it wasn't planned. At that time, there was no
Speaker 3: real language around diversity, equity and inclusion that was really
Speaker 3: meaningfully being heard. Right, there were those really big vendors
Speaker 3: that would get these big contracts with these big companies,
Speaker 3: and they would do a sort of check the box exercise.
Speaker 3: They'd be like compliance and leal, which you know, of
Speaker 3: course I'm not a lawyer. So there was that, and
Speaker 3: then there was me over here trying to say, there
Speaker 3: needs to be more. There has to be more to
Speaker 3: address the more subtle but very harmful behaviors that we
Speaker 3: are seeing day in and day out that I'm hearing about,
Speaker 3: that experience that I'm researching about. And so when I
Speaker 3: launched Candor, and it's not very old, you know, I
Speaker 3: incorporated Candor, my consulting firm, in twenty seventeen, so it's
Speaker 3: actually not even that old. I did it when my
Speaker 3: child was less than a year old, and I really,
Speaker 3: in many ways just did it because I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I'll go back into some sort of like a corporate
Speaker 3: space eventually, right, Like I am trained as a journalist,
Speaker 3: Maybe I'll just take a few more years off. Maybe
Speaker 3: I'll do a couple of like short projects, probably not
Speaker 3: going to make a lot of money, and then go
Speaker 3: back into something more full time. And maybe it was
Speaker 3: the moment, Maybe it was the timing. Maybe it was
Speaker 3: the fact that we reached this point of no return
Speaker 3: after the twenty sixteen elections. But something just switched for me,
Speaker 3: and in many ways, I think for a lot more
Speaker 3: corporate leaders. So the conversations I was starting to happen
Speaker 3: even before twenty seventeen, but really since twenty seventeen was
Speaker 3: more corporate leaders saying I see that there's a problem,
Speaker 3: like I'm really seeing it now, And even if I
Speaker 3: want to make a change, I don't know how. I
Speaker 3: don't know where to get started. Many folks had really
Speaker 3: good intentions but did not really think about the impact,
Speaker 3: or care about the impact, or have words to talk
Speaker 3: about the impact that they were having on women of color,
Speaker 3: especially black and brown women. And I think that's that
Speaker 3: led me to want to write this book. You know,
Speaker 3: I started doing it through my other writing. I explored
Speaker 3: through all my other writing. I was really exploring this
Speaker 3: this reality that was so clear to me that for
Speaker 3: women of color the workplace was so different than the
Speaker 3: experience of white women in the workplace. And I never
Speaker 3: thought that there would be appetite for it. And the
Speaker 3: fact that there is it, you know, it's it really
Speaker 3: is remarkable right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned you're launching entrepreneurship, and I'm kind of
Speaker 1: nodding my head because I just launched my own entrepreneurial
Speaker 1: journey this past summer. Yeah, I know, it hasn't even
Speaker 1: been a year yet. I'm just I'm a newborn entrepreneur entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: and I too had privileged you know, I had scrolled
Speaker 1: away and I had to ask myself, you know, what
Speaker 1: was it all for if I can't just dive off
Speaker 1: this cliff and see what happens, you know. And then
Speaker 1: my husband, who I've talked about, he's my health he's
Speaker 1: my health insurance card.
Speaker 3: Same here, same Yeah.
Speaker 1: Isn't it nice? Although I tell women all the time,
Speaker 1: you know, there's the healthcare marketplace, you can make it happen.
Speaker 1: But let's talk about entrepreneurship, because I mean, you also
Speaker 1: share this stat in the book, which I want to
Speaker 1: pull up really quickly, and there's a couple of different stats. Also,
Speaker 1: you know other data that has shown that women of
Speaker 1: color are just the fatigue. And I'm imagining two big
Speaker 1: factors are twenty sixteen election in the summer of twenty
Speaker 1: twenty just sort of culminated in the sense of like,
Speaker 1: get us out of here, Yeah, get us out of
Speaker 1: this place. We're so tired of it. And what I
Speaker 1: what I feel like is happening is right at the
Speaker 1: point when companies are finally almost getting it and starting
Speaker 1: to invest more in these initiatives. For a lot of us,
Speaker 1: it's it's like too little, too late, And I'm wondering.
Speaker 1: I want to get your take on that, because I
Speaker 1: have found I have a group coaching cohort called the
Speaker 1: Mandy money Makers. My eighth week is this week. My
Speaker 1: first core is done and I'm twenty four amazing women
Speaker 1: of color. We're in this first cohort and we had
Speaker 1: I thought if it was last week. Week before I
Speaker 1: talked all about entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship and how to be
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial at work and how that benefited my career. And
Speaker 1: I remember one of the a couple of times on
Speaker 1: one of my one of my makers was like, but Mandy,
Speaker 1: like you left corporate America, is there no hope? And
Speaker 1: I feel deeply that there is hope, But yet I'm
Speaker 1: also like, for me, the story was a little bit over.
Speaker 3: But how do you?
Speaker 1: How do you? How do you sort of respond to
Speaker 1: those questions? Because I'm with you, I do believe that
Speaker 1: there's good intentions out there, that people are willing to
Speaker 1: change and want to change and create a better place
Speaker 1: for women of color to work. But what But I
Speaker 1: also grapple with for some of us, who's too little,
Speaker 1: too late? Yeah, go in and get out, girl, take
Speaker 1: care talent elsewhere. Two things can be true.
Speaker 2: What do you feel about that?
Speaker 3: You're I mean literally what you said. Two things can
Speaker 3: be true. And I've met a lot of people who
Speaker 3: are in corporate environments where they have felt supported and
Speaker 3: seen and heard. They may not have always felt that way,
Speaker 3: but they're in a place, they've landed in a place
Speaker 3: where they do feel that way. They feel really they
Speaker 3: get a lot of meaningful joy out of the work
Speaker 3: that they do, the team that they interact with, they
Speaker 3: want to be part of, like a bigger picture within
Speaker 3: an organization. And for over a while, that was me.
Speaker 3: I really did feel that way. I was very excited
Speaker 3: and energized by the work I was doing. What became
Speaker 3: far too much to bear, far too toxic in the
Speaker 3: long run, you know. And this was even before I
Speaker 3: had a child. I cannot believe, but I cannot imagine
Speaker 3: what it would have felt like to come home to
Speaker 3: a child with some of the toxicity I was dealing
Speaker 3: with at that time, and how could I really be
Speaker 3: present as a person, as a human being, as a mom,
Speaker 3: as a caretaker. But I think for some people, they
Speaker 3: really like that environment. They really, I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: they like the work they do. They find it to
Speaker 3: be meaningful. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, right, And I
Speaker 3: actually think that there's a specific type of person in
Speaker 3: my sort of group of friends who are entrepreneurs and
Speaker 3: the people I admire like you do have to be
Speaker 3: really ready to take that risk, right, It is risky,
Speaker 3: and whether it's because you have a safety net or
Speaker 3: whether it's because there's some other reason, but that risk
Speaker 3: is a very big part of it. And I hate
Speaker 3: that for women of color who may not want to
Speaker 3: take that risk, for whom they know, entrepreneurship is not
Speaker 3: the way forward when they feel compelled to make that
Speaker 3: leap because they're having such a terrible experience in the workplace.
Speaker 3: They're experiencing racism and bias and sexism and misogyny in
Speaker 3: all of those things. I really wish that there was
Speaker 3: a better way. And that's why I can't think of
Speaker 3: a more urgent you know, leadership sort of quality, trait, priority,
Speaker 3: call it what you want. Then inclusion right then really
Speaker 3: focusing and prioritizing what are people who have historically been marginalized,
Speaker 3: left out, overlooked, underestimated, What are they feeling, what are
Speaker 3: they going through? How can I use my privilege to
Speaker 3: change that experience so that we retain this amazing, innovative,
Speaker 3: ambitious That's the part that always gets I feel like
Speaker 3: it gets hidden, But the data is so clear women
Speaker 3: of color, and this is a like women of color,
Speaker 3: we know, not a monolith across you know, categories, which demographics,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Women of color are consistently far more ambitious
Speaker 3: than are white counterparts. Are white women counterparts. So the
Speaker 3: fact that we are leaving the fact that we are
Speaker 3: not getting the support and the you know, yeah, support
Speaker 3: and sponsorship and funding that we need we're getting underpaid,
Speaker 3: we're getting overlooked. It just it really breaks my heart
Speaker 3: because the opportunity, in my mind, is endless to retain
Speaker 3: and to promote women of color who are ambitious, who
Speaker 3: are not you know, who are not leaving for the
Speaker 3: reasons that our media keeps banding about. You know, they
Speaker 3: as soon as they become moms, they want to leave.
Speaker 3: I mean, the data around women of color does not
Speaker 3: show that.
Speaker 1: Oh please, as soon as we become moms, I want nothing.
Speaker 1: I wanted nothing more than to go back to work.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, it's.
Speaker 2: Not good for me.
Speaker 3: No, no, it wasn't for me either. Yes, And these
Speaker 3: are the stories. These are the stories I don't hear, right,
Speaker 3: the stories I hear in the media. In this is
Speaker 3: why your work is so important, because what I hear
Speaker 3: is like you, you know, you feel so shameful and
Speaker 3: it's so terrible, and you're like, you know, it's so
Speaker 3: hard to have to go back to work and all
Speaker 3: of that, and I think of women of color whom for?
Speaker 3: And this is why, specifically in my book, I did
Speaker 3: not have a chapter around women of color and caregiving,
Speaker 3: because I said, our realities are so different and they're
Speaker 3: also varied. It's so nuanced that you can't capture it
Speaker 3: in one book. But you know, for a lot of
Speaker 3: women of color, we've not had that luxury of choice. Like,
Speaker 3: we've not had that luxury. You know, many of us
Speaker 3: have ancestors and family and friends who've had to go
Speaker 3: back right after giving birth right because of the lack
Speaker 3: of social structures in this country where there wasn't that
Speaker 3: privilege of choice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think even more so if you are
Speaker 1: lucky enough like I was, to have paid parental leave,
Speaker 1: which is just not it's astonishing to me in this
Speaker 1: country we still are like one of a handful that
Speaker 1: don't offer. But I almost felt like I need to
Speaker 1: get back, I need to get back.
Speaker 2: I'm missing out.
Speaker 1: And I think that's also that the you know why
Speaker 1: we call the show Brown Ambition is because you understand
Speaker 1: that it's really you know, sometimes people have so such
Speaker 1: low expectations for us when we walk in the room,
Speaker 1: it's really criminal.
Speaker 2: And so I feel like we.
Speaker 1: Overcompensate, We ratchet up our expectations on ourselves and then
Speaker 1: we're like, and now we got to go. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like people are necessarily thinking when's this person
Speaker 1: is going to come back or whatnot. But we know
Speaker 1: that we have to seize every opportunity we have to
Speaker 1: make an impact that we can keep going.
Speaker 2: And I get it, like.
Speaker 1: That sense of fatigue, and especially with my with my makers,
Speaker 1: talking to them weekend and week out several you know,
Speaker 1: there's been people, you know, women are really getting emotional
Speaker 1: and it is exhausting the labor of all of this.
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a little bit about.
Speaker 1: I know your book very much is about inclusive practices
Speaker 1: in business and among leaders, which is incredible, but you know,
Speaker 1: for anyone listening who's struggling with that type of fatigue,
Speaker 1: talk to talk about some like coping mechanisms for that.
Speaker 1: And you know, and it's not always the right approach
Speaker 1: for better or worse, is not always to go to
Speaker 1: HR and air it out because it may not be resolved,
Speaker 1: it may not be resolved in the way that actually
Speaker 1: helps you. But I feel like a lot of us
Speaker 1: are cobbling together those coping mechanisms now and I wanted
Speaker 1: to kind of talk to you about that. What do
Speaker 1: you find working as a woman of color, yourself and
Speaker 1: from people that you talk to help us kind of
Speaker 1: get through it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, not at all to be self serving, but there
Speaker 3: is so much that I wish was available when I
Speaker 3: was going through this. And by the way, as an entrepreneur,
Speaker 3: you still do. I mean, it's not like I became
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur and suddenly everyone was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 3: let me open the doors for you. I've been again overlooked,
Speaker 3: underestimated regularly. I mean literally, as of like one two weeks.
Speaker 3: I've had experiences. When igioma Ulo and I were talking
Speaker 3: backstage before the launch last week, we shared some really
Speaker 3: ridiculous examples of how like I mean, she's a New
Speaker 3: York Times bestselling author and we were talking about experiences
Speaker 3: where you know, even she had definitely been you know,
Speaker 3: overlooked and underestimated. So I think the number one thing
Speaker 3: is when I think about my contribution to this all,
Speaker 3: it is hopefully, you know, my body of work and others.
Speaker 3: As I mean, this is not done in a silo
Speaker 3: by any stretch of the imagination, but hopefully finding your
Speaker 3: stories reflected, knowing that you're not alone, knowing that the
Speaker 3: whatever you may hear in the work place like no, no,
Speaker 3: we didn't mean it that way. I mean, I have
Speaker 3: so many stories of what it was like to be
Speaker 3: in corporations where they're like, it's all in your head,
Speaker 3: or no, that's just the way it's done here, or
Speaker 3: maybe you can't deal with it, or maybe you're not
Speaker 3: strong enough, maybe you're not smart enough, like those sorts
Speaker 3: of invalidations. Not it's not a paper cut, by the way,
Speaker 3: which I mean again the sort of white feminism, corporate
Speaker 3: feminism movement calls it, you know, death by a thousand
Speaker 3: paper cuts. It's not. It's it really feels like sometimes
Speaker 3: like a knife in your back all the time, quite
Speaker 3: a lot, I don't want to say all the time,
Speaker 3: but quite a lot. So having resources that validate your
Speaker 3: experience reading podcasts, I mean, communities like this I think
Speaker 3: are really valuable. And because I can think of a
Speaker 3: time where I needed it and I didn't have it.
Speaker 3: And then so I started blaming myself. I started falling
Speaker 3: prey to you know, all sorts of feelings of I'm
Speaker 3: not good enough, imposters syndrome, this idea of not belonging.
Speaker 3: It's something to do with me. If only I fill
Speaker 3: in the blank, you know, did this, I would be
Speaker 3: able to progress, I'd be able to cope with it
Speaker 3: better and having you know, tools around that is really
Speaker 3: helpful the tribe, the community. Again, when I moved to
Speaker 3: Seattle nine years ago, it's it's a very white place,
Speaker 3: and a lot of the folks that I connected with
Speaker 3: initially and was sort of introduced to everyone was white.
Speaker 3: And so when I would talk about my experiences, I
Speaker 3: could see I was making a lot of white people
Speaker 3: uncomfortable or like, oh no, no, you know, even if
Speaker 3: they weren't part of the organization, they'd be like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: I mean that it wasn't that. I'm sure, I'm sure
Speaker 3: that wasn't what they meant. And that white fragility, I mean,
Speaker 3: it is not. I don't think it's any surprise that
Speaker 3: Robin d'angelo's work on white fragility Igeoma Ulow's work on
Speaker 3: So you want to talk about race and mediocre, A
Speaker 3: lot of that generates from the Seattle Washington area, which
Speaker 3: is very white, very liberal.
Speaker 2: And I never thought about that, but yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the reason why I bring that up is
Speaker 3: because the experience is even more toxic. Like I moved from.
Speaker 3: Before that, I lived in Atlanta as a journalist of
Speaker 3: business journalists in Atlanta. Before that, I lived in New
Speaker 3: York and then I've lived in other countries around the world.
Speaker 3: Seattle is so specific and unique. It is liberal, right.
Speaker 3: We we've always voted blue for as long as I think,
Speaker 3: you know, there are records, and so because there is
Speaker 3: that sort of liberal umbrella, the slights and that everyday
Speaker 3: racism quote casual racism isn't fully explored or understood or
Speaker 3: even even accepted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think we're kind of like at the
Speaker 1: epicenter of white fragility. I just realized I visited Seattle,
Speaker 1: and I didn't like it. Maybe you're articulating why.
Speaker 3: It's but I also took place like.
Speaker 1: Park Slope, but bigger way, bigger parkshow Brooklyn, which is
Speaker 1: like a super gentrified part of Brooklyn here in New
Speaker 1: York where I am on the.
Speaker 2: Other side of the world. Yeah, I mean, kudos to you.
Speaker 1: For staying there and fighting the good fight.
Speaker 3: Because back to the tribe. You need your tribe, you know,
Speaker 3: And so I started slowly building that because when you're
Speaker 3: going through this experience and experiences, you need a tribe.
Speaker 3: You need people to remind you that it's not just
Speaker 3: in your head, it's not just you know, if you
Speaker 3: do more power poses You're not going to just suddenly
Speaker 3: overcome those feelings that you're feeling. And that became really
Speaker 3: important and meaningful for me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for reaffirming what I am always talking about.
Speaker 1: It's just it's human beings. You know, it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if you've got two, three, five hundred, or just you
Speaker 1: know five people that you can kind of turn.
Speaker 2: To for support.
Speaker 1: But it you know what made I remember when I
Speaker 1: was at my last when I was a senior director
Speaker 1: at my last company, I recruited and she's still there.
Speaker 1: Her name's is Matmnga. I love her. She was my
Speaker 1: assistant content director and I remember I waited like six
Speaker 1: months to find her. And this was my secret vendetta
Speaker 1: I was. I knew i'd probably I knew that I
Speaker 1: was coming on five years and I was probably going
Speaker 1: to be leaving, or if I was, I just wanted
Speaker 1: to be sure that my successor I was going to
Speaker 1: leave things equal.
Speaker 2: I wanted a woman of color. I did so.
Speaker 1: If Joe Biden was going to go out, you know,
Speaker 1: like he said, I'm going to go find a black
Speaker 1: female Supreme Court justice, I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: find a woman of color to replace me unapologetically. I
Speaker 1: didn't broadcast it, but I knew that's what I was doing.
Speaker 1: And I just remember how less lonely I felt having
Speaker 1: ismit there, and you know, we shared a boss and
Speaker 1: you know he was well meaning but flawed, and so
Speaker 1: much of that crap became so much easier to deal
Speaker 1: with because Smith was there, because I could chat about it,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think that's what it's about. It's
Speaker 1: like the small things that happen on a day to day.
Speaker 1: Not everything is like file a complaint worthy or quit
Speaker 1: your job worthy, but it does exhaust then, you know,
Speaker 1: just having a quick outlet to laugh about that or
Speaker 1: constantly just like you know, well now you can't do
Speaker 1: it anymore because you don't have cubicles. A lot of
Speaker 1: us were working at home but just turning around because
Speaker 1: it's been sat behind me and just kind of be
Speaker 1: like did you see this, and like having that bit
Speaker 1: of connection. Selfishly, that's why I went about building my team.
Speaker 1: So it was so chock full of diverse talent because
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to find that community at the company.
Speaker 1: I created it myself. And when I was doing that
Speaker 1: session with makers last week and talking about this particular
Speaker 1: session was about encouraging leadership and pursuing leadership opportunities, and
Speaker 1: I could start to hear, you know, a couple of
Speaker 1: folks who had who were very cynical about it, like
Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of work. Are we really
Speaker 1: gonna you know, it seems like it's even harder to
Speaker 1: get to the top, So why should we try?
Speaker 2: Why bother trying?
Speaker 1: All I can do is point back to that time
Speaker 1: when I was able to create that team and say,
Speaker 1: that's why it is hard and more challenging than it
Speaker 1: ought to be for talented folks to find those positions.
Speaker 1: But the impact that you can have, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, so if.
Speaker 1: There I can toot my own I'm so proud of that,
Speaker 1: you know, and I it's one of the I have
Speaker 1: to work on my responses for this too.
Speaker 2: Maybe you did to your in book tour.
Speaker 1: Mode, but I want to convince more women of color
Speaker 1: to go for those leadership opportunities. It's it's the hard
Speaker 1: thing to do, but the impact, Like if you just
Speaker 1: think about what ripples you can create, you know, isn't
Speaker 1: that worth it?
Speaker 3: It's so comportant, so worth it, And kudos to you
Speaker 3: for doing that. I also think what has happened all
Speaker 3: this while is that there is a sharp elbows mentality. Firstly,
Speaker 3: the way white supremacy and white capitalist patriarchy has pitted
Speaker 3: us against one another. So if you are from different
Speaker 3: communities of being a woman of color, A lot of
Speaker 3: women of color, especially newer immigrant women of color like myself,
Speaker 3: you know, immigrant women of color to this country, they
Speaker 3: don't associate with being women of color, you know, they don't.
Speaker 3: That social and political identity is one that many reject
Speaker 3: because of that concern of like, no, the way to
Speaker 3: get ahead and the way to achieve the American dream
Speaker 3: is to reject that solidarity, to reject my identity, and
Speaker 3: to assimilate and integrate and uphold white supremacy and perpetuate
Speaker 3: anti blackness frankly in many cases too. And so I
Speaker 3: think really leaning hard into our social and political identity
Speaker 3: as women of color, showing up for one another, really
Speaker 3: advocating for one one another, because it takes so much
Speaker 3: of work to get to those leadership positions. And I
Speaker 3: suspect one of the reasons, apart from dealing with that
Speaker 3: BS day in and day out on the workplace side,
Speaker 3: is also not feeling like anyone has your back, even
Speaker 3: within your own community, right, and I would love for
Speaker 3: us more of us to band together and find ways
Speaker 3: to support women of color to get into these high positions.
Speaker 3: One of the people I interviewed for the book, Aaron Okuno,
Speaker 3: who is, by the way, based in the Seattle area,
Speaker 3: you know, is part of a group that really supports
Speaker 3: women of color candidates running in especially like school board
Speaker 3: and other state elections, sort of very meaningful positions of
Speaker 3: political power here in Washington State. But making sure that
Speaker 3: there really is a group of women of color and
Speaker 3: some advocates and allies supporting those women of color to run,
Speaker 3: because it's not just about money. It's not just about fundraising,
Speaker 3: It's not just about that. It's about it's the enti
Speaker 3: it's the visibility process, the communication, all of that, and
Speaker 3: then it's the emotional labor and support for you knowing
Speaker 3: that you're going to be again hyper scrutinized and invisible
Speaker 3: at the same time. Right, women of color candidates here
Speaker 3: in Washington State. Some of the stories, some of the few,
Speaker 3: the few that I've actually spoken to in person have
Speaker 3: talked so much about experiencing such horrific you know, online
Speaker 3: abuse and scrutiny and even racism from the media and whatnot,
Speaker 3: And you really need that tribe behind you, saying I
Speaker 3: believe in you, power on, You're doing this for us.
Speaker 3: Whatever you need, We're here for you. So I hope
Speaker 3: this book also catalyzes that movement and that solidarity and
Speaker 3: camaraderie among women of color, different communities of women of color,
Speaker 3: as well as obviously it's like I want everything. I
Speaker 3: want all the things. Who knows what's actually going to
Speaker 3: happen and you know where it actually lands. But I
Speaker 3: really would like that too.
Speaker 1: It's that scarcity trapped to like, oh, if there's only
Speaker 1: a few of us at the top, there's only so
Speaker 1: many seats, so we have to kind of compete. I
Speaker 1: could keep talking to Rechika all day long, but let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we will be right back
Speaker 1: with more brown ambition. All right, we are back, and
Speaker 1: here is more of my conversation with Chika Tilcian. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about even kind of a controversial topic
Speaker 1: that came up. I know I'm talking about the Makers
Speaker 1: a lot, but man, not such a fun like focus
Speaker 1: group I get to chill out with every week. And
Speaker 1: one of the controversial things we discussed was I've been
Speaker 1: pretty honest and open that in my career one of
Speaker 1: my most meaningful mentors, allies, whatever you want to call him,
Speaker 1: was a white male at my company, and how I
Speaker 1: benefited from his endorsement throughout my journey and how and
Speaker 1: I encourage because I feel like as black women, we
Speaker 1: tend to we do find our tribe, we find our community,
Speaker 1: those of us who are smart enough to do that.
Speaker 1: If you're not, if you haven't do it, you're you're
Speaker 1: listening to brown ambitions. So I feel like, you know
Speaker 1: you're in the right place, you're doing something. But we
Speaker 1: you know, if once we kind of find our people,
Speaker 1: you know, our community and people that we can commserate
Speaker 1: with and just lean on for support, it's also important,
Speaker 1: I think, for us to be open to even diversifying
Speaker 1: the people who can help us, and sometimes, of course,
Speaker 1: I mean so much the people who have the privilege.
Speaker 1: My former boss, for example, him recognizing his influence and
Speaker 1: then helping me and guiding me and kind of offering,
Speaker 1: you know, speaking my name in rooms.
Speaker 2: That he was in.
Speaker 1: I can acknowledge that that was a reason I was
Speaker 1: able to advance. I mean of course I did the
Speaker 1: great work, but having that endorsement, I realized the power
Speaker 1: in that and I always so I want to encourage women.
Speaker 1: And I'll get your take on this too, that you know,
Speaker 1: even if you're not in a company where the people
Speaker 1: with the power and privilege are recognizing that they should
Speaker 1: reach down and pull us up, that you are open
Speaker 1: to the idea of reaching up or reaching over to
Speaker 1: even diversify your you know, your bench of sponsors and allies,
Speaker 1: people who could potentially help you advance, and unfortunately the
Speaker 1: math is not in our favor. A lot of them
Speaker 1: don't look like us. So you know, what are your
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: Is that? Am I?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Am I going to get canceled for saying that.
Speaker 3: You're one hundred percent right?
Speaker 1: I think because I won't edit it out now if
Speaker 1: you say I'm doing no.
Speaker 3: And and by the way, we should we can and
Speaker 3: we totally should have different points of view as well.
Speaker 3: There's no one path to success, especially for women of color,
Speaker 3: because we are creating it as we walk it. I
Speaker 3: mean we are literally we are literally flying the plane
Speaker 3: as we're building it. Right, We're building and flying at
Speaker 3: the same time because right now there's there's very little
Speaker 3: there's like a very little runway. Right we've not really
Speaker 3: seen much or nearly enough. And no, I think I
Speaker 3: mean again, the reason why I felt this book was
Speaker 3: so necessary and urgent is because if more people with
Speaker 3: privilege and power, white male privilege, socio economic privilege, since
Speaker 3: male privilege, would turn around and say, actually, where do
Speaker 3: I have you know, influence, Where are the rooms where
Speaker 3: my voice is heard and reverberates and whose names can
Speaker 3: I speak? If more men could do that, if more
Speaker 3: white men could do that, the world would look so
Speaker 3: different because they do that for each other. Right. Research
Speaker 3: on sponsorship finds three quarters off white men or or
Speaker 3: of sponsors sponsor people of the same race and gender
Speaker 3: as them. So, if you're going to be a white
Speaker 3: man and you're in a position where you can sponsor someone,
Speaker 3: you can speak someone's name, you know, we should really
Speaker 3: have this person do this top job or get promoted
Speaker 3: or you know, lead the big leadership meeting. Three out
Speaker 3: of four times that's going to be someone of the
Speaker 3: same race and gender as them. So you do have
Speaker 3: to disrupt the way or of us have been conditioned,
Speaker 3: some say hardwired we know race is a social construct,
Speaker 3: but still, in many ways we have been hardwired to
Speaker 3: prefer sameness, and as we have evolved as a society,
Speaker 3: sameness has meant race and gender, which is ridiculous because
Speaker 3: if you actually look at it from a scientific and
Speaker 3: a DNA standpoint, it's like negligible, right, the difference is
Speaker 3: un negligible. But what I've found is without that awareness,
Speaker 3: without that intentionality, it's not going to change. And therefore
Speaker 3: I'm less. My focus and the sort of what I'm
Speaker 3: trying to build is less around women of color should
Speaker 3: reach up and find those sponsors I do. I think
Speaker 3: it's necessary where you have that ability to do so,
Speaker 3: where there are opportunities to connect. And therefore, some of
Speaker 3: what I recommend in the book is make sure as
Speaker 3: an organization or as a leader, you do have opportunities
Speaker 3: to connect people at different levels, off different backgrounds. Make
Speaker 3: sure they're in each other's orbit so that those relationships
Speaker 3: can happen. And my focus is much more on the systemic.
Speaker 3: You know, how can white male leaders or white women
Speaker 3: leaders make sure that they are also amplifying and sponsoring
Speaker 3: and making a room and giving credit to women of
Speaker 3: color Because that's something that's missing in the pie. I
Speaker 3: think a lot of it is. You know, when I
Speaker 3: used to come in and speak about women's leadership, which
Speaker 3: now I do very carefully and thoughtfully. Before it was
Speaker 3: like yes, anyone who have me, I'll come in, And
Speaker 3: now when I do it, I'm very careful not to
Speaker 3: go into the blame of like you need to do this,
Speaker 3: and you need to try and get a meeting with
Speaker 3: this person that person. I mean, I remember how hard
Speaker 3: I hustled when I started Candor. I remember how many
Speaker 3: people I tried to make connections with to try and
Speaker 3: sponsor me, people in positions of power and leadership, and
Speaker 3: how many turned away from me. And it was one
Speaker 3: very specific example of a white man at a very
Speaker 3: well known organization who literally bad for me. Literally literally
Speaker 3: went against a lot of the structures that were set
Speaker 3: up in the organization that did not want me to
Speaker 3: engage with them. He literally went to bad for me.
Speaker 3: He literally went and said, I will only work with Ruchikai,
Speaker 3: will only work with Candor. You have to figure this
Speaker 3: out on your end. Yeah, that's what you need those
Speaker 3: Yes we do, we.
Speaker 1: Do, and you're absolutely right, it is and this is
Speaker 1: why I kind of feel like mailing a copy of
Speaker 1: this book to every or even not even mailing, but
Speaker 1: I feel like, as a litmus test for anyone interviewing
Speaker 1: for a job, ask them if they've heard of Rachica's book,
Speaker 1: and if it's on if it's on the.
Speaker 3: Desk of the CEO, thank you.
Speaker 1: And if the answer is yes, and that's probably a
Speaker 1: safe space for you to to go to work. And
Speaker 1: what I love in my work recently has it's become
Speaker 1: it's become cool now to quit and stuff.
Speaker 2: But like I was doing it way before, and so.
Speaker 1: Were you quitting places where things were just where there
Speaker 1: was a ceiling, instead of waiting for the ceiling to move.
Speaker 1: And like I said, for some of us, it's like
Speaker 1: we don't have time to wait for to catch up
Speaker 1: to us. Like we have families, we have generational poverty.
Speaker 1: We may have you know, families relying on us, family
Speaker 1: members relying on us for children. We're just our damn selves.
Speaker 1: We just want to have a nice life. Okay, we
Speaker 1: want to have the wash or dryer. We want a
Speaker 1: door dash on the weekends, like we want to get
Speaker 1: the nice bottle of wine from the top shelf, not
Speaker 1: the bottom where it's like seven dollars, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean?
Speaker 3: That's fine, so speaking my love life right.
Speaker 1: And for us, you know, it's okay to leave a
Speaker 1: place where you don't have the support. But what I
Speaker 1: don't want people to feel like is there's not places
Speaker 1: where you can be supported. It just is a higher bar.
Speaker 1: It's a higher bar. And that's why it's more important
Speaker 1: for us than ever to talk to one another. Where
Speaker 1: are you happy? Where have you been happy to work?
Speaker 1: And how can I scoop you up.
Speaker 2: And bring you over here?
Speaker 1: You know? And I loved my last I actually really
Speaker 1: loved the place I worked for five years. It was
Speaker 1: a wonderful place. And every I was like, come get
Speaker 1: this money, y'all.
Speaker 2: Come on, I'm gonna get you some equity.
Speaker 1: They got sign on bonuses, like I wanted to help
Speaker 1: other people build wealth in my own little small way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I I generally feel optimistic. As much as
Speaker 1: there's plenty to be cynical about and plenty to be
Speaker 1: pessimistic about, I generally do have hope for things for
Speaker 1: women of color in corporate America that things will keep
Speaker 1: incrementally proving. At the same time, like I agree with
Speaker 1: you that we have to sometimes move things in our
Speaker 1: favor a little bit quicker because we just can't wait
Speaker 1: for everyone to catch up and make these These changes
Speaker 1: are not necessarily immediate quick fixes, you know, how to
Speaker 1: become a more inclusive workplace, right, I mean, they're going
Speaker 1: to take time. So if it's not there yet, it's
Speaker 1: go want and get out and go somewhere where it's fine.
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely you should go. Literally that I mean,
Speaker 3: during the whole nicole Hannah Jones Saga, I kept seeing
Speaker 3: this quote again and again. Right, go where you are celebrated,
Speaker 3: not just tolerated, and in some cases not even tolerated.
Speaker 3: I think that is a very important piece of advice
Speaker 3: to keep top of mind. And I think because women
Speaker 3: of color are expected to be grateful, to be you know,
Speaker 3: fill in the blind cure, like whatever the word is is,
Speaker 3: you know, submissive or grateful or like, oh I'm just
Speaker 3: so I'm just so thankful that like someone would give
Speaker 3: me a job. We're supposed to just be okay with
Speaker 3: crappy conditions. Absolutely not. And I understand, I understand, and
Speaker 3: I recognize and acknowledge the privilege inherent in that statement,
Speaker 3: which is why I understand like this is not you know,
Speaker 3: I wish that I wish that every single person and
Speaker 3: I and I envision a world and I want to
Speaker 3: be optimistic for a world where every single person has
Speaker 3: the opportunity to do that for themselves. I do think
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of people in between where
Speaker 3: there is an opportunity to move to better and greater things,
Speaker 3: and you or the way that you've been conditioned holds
Speaker 3: you back. And I and I really hope that for
Speaker 3: folks listening to this you really sit down and think,
Speaker 3: what are the ways that I can make my dreams
Speaker 3: come true? Because you know life is, life is short,
Speaker 3: We know life is really precious. The time we're living
Speaker 3: in right now is absolutely wild a in a not
Speaker 3: good way, right, So yeah, how can you make your
Speaker 3: dreams come true?
Speaker 2: It's so hard?
Speaker 1: And I love that you pointed that out because sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not like any one person sat you down and
Speaker 1: said you're.
Speaker 2: Not going to go anywhere, You're not going to be anybody.
Speaker 1: It's never that easy to pinpoint that was the person.
Speaker 1: So often it's like us being conditioned and then us
Speaker 1: wielding that abuse toward ourselves, and like the verbal abuse
Speaker 1: the you know, holding yourself back and how to unlearn that.
Speaker 2: I'm like, add to.
Speaker 1: That community, your therapist, your career coach, your mentors, whatever
Speaker 1: you need. I feel like we're never that self doubt,
Speaker 1: that kind of nefarious, noxious gas of self doubt that
Speaker 1: we just kind of I don't know, I personally feel
Speaker 1: like I have a cloud. I'm always trying to keep
Speaker 1: it at bay, and I just kind of made peace
Speaker 1: that it's not going to go away. It's just I
Speaker 1: have to, you know, call it what it is and
Speaker 1: reck it and then just like shoe it away to
Speaker 1: get through the next thing. And I want that, And
Speaker 1: especially if you're ambitious like we are, You're just it's
Speaker 1: just the things are only going to get more challenging.
Speaker 1: That's what we want, right, More challenging, more scary, more
Speaker 1: opportunity for doubt to creep in. And it's like, how
Speaker 1: do we unlearn all of that?
Speaker 3: How do we channel it? Right? I think there's unlearned
Speaker 3: and then there's also how do you challenge it and
Speaker 3: challenge it and channel it? You know? Because the other
Speaker 3: thing for me, and this is a little more cultural,
Speaker 3: but growing up outside the United States, the one thing
Speaker 3: people will say in common in general about Americans outside
Speaker 3: of America is people will talk about this amazing confidence
Speaker 3: that Americans have or the American culture, which we know,
Speaker 3: like white American culture, like there's a you know what
Speaker 3: is culture, but there's a there's this perception that to
Speaker 3: make it here, you got to be really got to
Speaker 3: scream from the rooftops, You've got to be really comfortable
Speaker 3: self promoting, You've got to show up a very certain way,
Speaker 3: which largely is, you know, essentially like a typical white guy. Right, Like,
Speaker 3: I know what I'm doing, and I have all the answers,
Speaker 3: and I actually think, why not as we think about
Speaker 3: building a better workplace and getting more women of color
Speaker 3: into senior leadership positions, why not create more leadership styles.
Speaker 3: Why not say it's completely okay to be you can
Speaker 3: totally be a leader and be more quiet and more
Speaker 3: thoughtful and more introverted. I'm extremely uncomfortable with self promotion
Speaker 3: this last week, and you know, the weeks leading up
Speaker 3: to this book and then some of the things I
Speaker 3: have coming down the pike for me are very difficult,
Speaker 3: they really, and it's the self doubt is less like
Speaker 3: I'm not good enough or I'm i don't feel confident
Speaker 3: in my abilities. I do, but this is just not
Speaker 3: the way that I feel comfortable sharing this. I'm a writer,
Speaker 3: so where I feel comfortable with sitting down and writing
Speaker 3: the thing, and then that's it. I don't want to,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to get up and talk
Speaker 3: about how wonderful I am. But it's not because I
Speaker 3: don't think I'm wonderful. It's because this isn't my medium,
Speaker 3: this isn't the way that I do it, and so
Speaker 3: why not as we reimagine workplaces for women of color
Speaker 3: and leadership for women of color, I would love to
Speaker 3: have different styles. I would love for it to be
Speaker 3: completely acceptable for someone to be like, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't want to self promote, and I'm not going to
Speaker 3: do it this way. And then for someone who feels
Speaker 3: very comfortable self promoting, they do it that way and
Speaker 3: that's totally fine and acceptable too. And then it's less
Speaker 3: about am I confident or not? What do I do
Speaker 3: to get rid of my self doubt all of those,
Speaker 3: and it's more about how do I channel this in
Speaker 3: a healthy way to do the things and make my
Speaker 3: dreams come true?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll just add to that as leaders, recognizing
Speaker 1: the varied personalities on your team and what various individuals
Speaker 1: may need to be their best. That was the emotional,
Speaker 1: invisible labor of being a manager that I don't think
Speaker 1: is taught, is recognizing how many different people need different
Speaker 1: styles and I had to force myself to learn how
Speaker 1: to help them thrive and everyone is a little bit different.
Speaker 1: And it was when I realized how much work that was,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, wonder they don't do this
Speaker 1: because it's a lot of extra work on me thinking
Speaker 1: of different ways to communicate and how to host this
Speaker 1: and how to make you know it was worthy work.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would challenge that to managers to recognize
Speaker 1: that just because someone in a meeting or someone's personality
Speaker 1: is a different style, that they may need something else,
Speaker 1: something more, something less than what other people have in
Speaker 1: order to get the best out of them, and that
Speaker 1: we should be supported, you know, in our work environments
Speaker 1: to kind of succeed in our in our own styles.
Speaker 1: Like just like you were saying, Rashika told she and
Speaker 1: I could talk to you all.
Speaker 3: Day, we can talk.
Speaker 1: I've really I've loved this conversation so much. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining Brann and Bish, I wish we
Speaker 1: had more time, but I know you have probably way
Speaker 1: bigger fish and media to fry, and maybe just a good,
Speaker 1: nice nap is also a worthy endeavor at the time.
Speaker 3: The nap is where I'm probably gonna head. I mean, Mandy,
Speaker 3: I love I love our conversation and I love being
Speaker 3: in community because at the end of the day, that
Speaker 3: feeling of being valued, of being seen off not you know,
Speaker 3: of not being asked immediately, like what are ten things
Speaker 3: we can do immediately now to become more inclusive? Which
Speaker 3: is which is sometimes or which is a lot of
Speaker 3: the conversation I'm having with more legacy and white red
Speaker 3: and white run media is really special. Like to be
Speaker 3: able to have this conversation and just say, hey, here's
Speaker 3: how it feels, and this is what you know, this
Speaker 3: is what we go through, and this is how we cope,
Speaker 3: and this is how we celebrate each other, and here's
Speaker 3: how we feel joy and optimism. I mean, that's what's
Speaker 3: so special about this experience and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for joining Brand Ambish And
Speaker 1: you guys have to go get a copy of Rachica's
Speaker 1: book Inclusion on Purpose. It is out now, it's gonna
Speaker 1: let's give bestseller vibes, okay, best seller Sprinkles of Magic.
Speaker 1: And if you are someone working in corporate America, buy
Speaker 1: this book, take it to work with you. Leave a
Speaker 1: copy on who's ever desk where it may be read
Speaker 1: and they may need to see it. Invite, I mean, Rachika,
Speaker 1: where can people find you to get candor to get
Speaker 1: your amazing insights? I mean to potentially work with you.
Speaker 1: Go to your website tell us where to go work.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm very active on Twitter and my handle
Speaker 3: is r Toulsian so r t u l s h
Speaker 3: y a N. If you want to check out my website,
Speaker 3: it's Inclusion on Purpose dot co so dot co and
Speaker 3: that will lead you directly to my website. It's very
Speaker 3: easy to get in contact with me. And my hope
Speaker 3: is you know, with this book and you know, longer
Speaker 3: conversation for another day. But my hope with this book
Speaker 3: is that more people, more women of color, know that
Speaker 3: they can write books, that their voices are valued and heard.
Speaker 3: You know, who knows how this book will do, but
Speaker 3: I would love to see more women of color become
Speaker 3: best selling authors so that the publishing industry doesn't turn
Speaker 3: us away and say, you know, I mean, ninety percent
Speaker 3: of books published are written by white authors, and so
Speaker 3: I really hope that we can all co create a
Speaker 3: different future together.
Speaker 2: Was that message just for me?
Speaker 3: Chide?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm working on it.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm good at do it. Do it? And
Speaker 3: you're speaking anyway I can part with, any way I
Speaker 3: can support, truly, But anything that I can do to
Speaker 3: support you, I'm here. I'm cheering you on.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: You're extraordinary and sorry. I can't wait to talk to
Speaker 1: you again. I feel like if I keep doing what
Speaker 1: I'm doing right in life, I'll just find myself in
Speaker 1: your circle and in your world and it'll all be wonderful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing your point of view,
Speaker 1: sharing your time, sharing your energy with us. Y'all definitely
Speaker 1: go check out Chika's book again. It's inclusion on Purpose.
Speaker 2: It is out now.
Speaker 1: If you will have a link to the book in
Speaker 1: the show notes so you can pick up your copy
Speaker 1: and more for your friends and family and coworkers. Ratika
Speaker 1: all the best.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you so much, and to you too,