WEBVTT - EP 299: Inclusion On Purpose w/ Ruchika Tulshyan 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.840 Hey, Hey, via fam, It's Mandy here with another episode 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.880 of Brown Ambition and today's conversation. Y'all, I cannot wait 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.239 for you to hear it. We continue to send love 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.080 and lots of hugs to Tiffany and send her all 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.120 the healing and positive vibes that she could need. As always, 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:25.759 if you guys want to send her a note of support, 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:27.640 you can find her at the Budgetiesta on all channels. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:28.400 We love you, Tiffany. 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.800 As y'all know, I have been talking up Rachica til 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:34.120 sheien ever since I was turned on to her work 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.320 by her viral article in the Harvard Business Review called 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.080 stop telling women that we have imposter Syndrome. I will 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.560 put another link to that article in the show notes. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.640 But more importantly, Rachika has a new book coming out, 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.760 and it is truly extraordinary. I would say it's required 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.960 reading for anyone in a leadership position, really for anyone 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.280 in general. But if you even own a teeny tiny 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.360 fraction of a percentage of decisions at a company that 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.480 could impact what it's like to work there for women 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.360 of color, this book has to be on your reading list. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:09.920 It needs to be at your desk, on your desk, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.160 share it with a friend. It's called Inclusion on Purpose, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:18.000 an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.360 It is out this month, and we are joined today 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.680 by the author herself, Ruchica Tulsian. Ruchka is so multifaceted. 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.360 She and I share a background in business journalism, which 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.800 is just one of the many connections that we've realized 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.600 we had. She also spent some time working in Atlanta, 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.399 although now she is calling us from her new home 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.400 for the past nine years on the West Coast in Seattle. 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.960 Cheka is an author, a keynote speaker, and she founded 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.520 her own company called Candor, which is an inclusion strategy practice. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.080 As a former international business journalist, Ruchica's writing has appeared 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.800 in places like The New York Times, a Harvard Business Review, 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.880 and of course, her brand new book, Inclusion on Purpose, 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.360 is out on shelves now. Please go pick up a copy. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.400 So today Ratchika and I sat down to talk about 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.880 the themes in her book, as well as her experience 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.120 actually being a change agent, going into companies as a 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.919 consultant to help them figure out how to do DEE 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.320 and I initiatives correctly and I mean, honestly, she and 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.480 I just connected on so many levels, and I think 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.919 first and foremost are general. You know, we were generally 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.839 in agreement that we can still be optimistic, that there 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.600 are places where we can feel included, we can feel 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.600 like we have equal opportunity for success. They unfortunately are 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.480 not as common as we'd all like them to be. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.640 But we realistically kind of look at what it's like 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.639 to be women of color with ambition, wanting to move 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.040 up in today's society, in today's world, and what it 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.320 can actually take for us to get there and not 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.120 get burnt out along the way. So, without further ado, 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:55.720 I will get out of my own way and welcome 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.880 our guest today again. Her name is Rachika till sheian. 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.120 To find out more about Rechika, go to Inclusion on 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.400 Purpose dot co, and of course check the show notes 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.520 for all the links and where to find her book 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.919 and find out more about her incredible work. Here's my 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.760 conversation with Rechika. All right, Va, fam, I have been 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.920 talking about today's guests for what feels like weeks, and 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.000 I am so excited to finally be sitting across virtually 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.280 from who a woman who I feel like you kind 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.680 of know when you're immediately going to connect with someone, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.040 and just you have the same philosophy about life, you 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.000 kind of see things through a similar lens. And within 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.880 the first ten pages of reading her brand new book, 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.760 Inclusion on Purpose, I was just like, I, Rechika has 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.600 to be on Brown Ambition and we have to be 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.000 friends and it's going to happen, and this is all happening, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.920 and Rechika told Shan is actually here. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.960 Hello, Hello, Mandy, thank you for having me. 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:53.240 I'm so excited. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.880 And you actually are aware of brown ambition, which is 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.960 extraordinary to me. It tells me we are branding ourselves correctly. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.400 If you found us, that is what we want. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.600 You are And I just want to say that it 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.839 is It's a really lonely endeavor to be a brown entrepreneur, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.960 right and build a business, a brown and black entrepreneur, 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.960 and you know, essentially part of a demographic that is 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:24.640 often you know, really overlooked and under sponsored and underestimated 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.200 and underfunded. And knowing that there's a community out there 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:34.120 building you know through really really like tall hardship is like, 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.839 I mean, what more can you need? Right? So please 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.720 know that the community you're building is really very special 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.159 and so necessary, and of course it's my pleasure and 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.040 honor to be here. And of course, in preparation of 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.120 this interview, when I when I listened to Stacy Abram's interview, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.080 that was that was like a very special, meaningful experience. 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.360 I mean, firstly, is there anything this person cannot do right? 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.040 Like just help? It liked not a thing, but also 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.239 so thoughtful and insightful the way the questions you asked 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.240 her and her co author Heather I mean, it was 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.560 just you did such a good job, Bendy. 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.839 Thank you well, thank you so much. And what I 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.480 love about you. Actually listened to your interview with Brene Brown, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.760 you and your friend and fellow colleague, Jodyanne Burry. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.119 Is that correct, Jodyane Berry? 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.440 Yeah, Jodyanne Berry, excellent work. I'm also trying to get 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.400 her on Brown Ambition. So if you want to text her, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.360 she's probably snowboarding or something. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.240 But get all the show. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.839 Oh my gosh, I will text her right away, of course. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:36.520 No, but this is the R Chica Show, so we're 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.240 going to focus on you. Tell me about this book. Well, first, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.320 let me tell you my first my first reaction to 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.920 reading the book was I was so grateful to it 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.400 because a part of my story, which if you've listened 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.440 to Brown Ambition, you know, I spent five years in 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.400 a senior leadership position managing a team, and you know, 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.640 it wasn't necessarily a Google or an Amazon, but it 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.480 was a relatively big fintech company. And I just remember 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.480 when I, you know, got that job at like twenty eight, 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.960 twenty nine, feeling this real sense of responsibility, like I 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:09.840 can't pick this up. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:10.720 I'm a black. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:14.200 Woman in charge. I get to hire people, I get 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.880 to review resumes. I'm going to try to do it 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.719 with the e I'm going to try to do things right. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.520 I'm going to try to use my little, you know, 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.880 corner of influence, my little you know, my little zone 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.080 of influence, and take small incremental steps toward making this 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.320 company more inclusive without even telling them. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:34.320 I didn't tell them. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.280 I was like a covert operator, like, oh, there's going 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.240 to be some black women in this team, and you 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.560 know all that. And what I love about your book 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:43.960 is that it really feels like it was written for 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.359 people in places of power and not necessarily to women 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.760 of color. We already know it's hard we already know 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.840 how challenging it can be. And when you were approaching 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.159 this book, I mean, I know that's so much of 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.080 what you talk about. You have a firm where you 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.080 consult and provide trainings to corporations, but talk to me 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:05.480 about intentionally speaking to the people who have the power 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:06.919 about this issue. 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.760 Yeah, this was actually a very complicated, you know, especially 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.240 when this book was in proposal stage. It was really 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:19.240 complicated because what happens is when you're shopping a book 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.920 proposal around is you need to have a really clear 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.400 idea of and you need to literally stay like who 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.520 are you trying to reach out to? And for me, 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.800 it was everyone, you know, I really I wanted women 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.560 of color to be able to see this and feel 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:40.440 seen and read it and feel validated because in honestly, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.520 every author, in some way, shape or form, writes the 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.800 book that they needed and didn't have. And that's how 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.960 I felt when I even conceptualized the idea of inclusion 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.440 on purpose, which by the way, only came to light 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.360 because a woman of color agent reached out to me 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.640 years ago and said, Hey, I read this one article 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.080 you wrote on Harvard Business Review. It was not a 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.760 viral article. It was not like the you know, imposter 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.320 syndrome one which I feel so proud to co author 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.920 with Jodiane, But it was a very it was it 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.560 was an article that was very meaningful to me about 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.480 corporate diversity efforts leaving out women of color. And she 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:19.320 reached out to me, She's like, have you thought about 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.560 writing a book, another book, a traditionally published one. Do 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.920 you have an agent? And I was like, no, of course, 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.679 not like I have no, I don't know me really, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.960 I mean, what could I contribute to this? 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.679 But you'd already published a book before, so you independently 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:34.120 published your first book essentially. 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.080 Yeah, So I was blogging for Forbes and they were 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.480 trying to They were essentially, you know, experimenting with an 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.719 ebook platform, and so the diversity advantage was part of that, 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.720 but not at all. A traditional publishing process by any 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.679 means no agent, no you know, which, of course is 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.520 a mistake by the way, for anyone listening, if you 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.880 are planning to publish a book in any way, shape 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.880 or form, whether even if you publish, if eventually decide 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.320 to publish independently and self published, it's always a good 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.480 idea to at least talk to an agent anyway, So. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:08.680 That that's me. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:10.600 I'm your audience right now, keep talking. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.240 Oh and I'm you know, and I'm happy to I 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:15.720 By the way, when I was done with my book proposal, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.000 I sent it to a lot of people. I sent 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.160 it specifically to women of color. I said, use what 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.360 you need from this, do what you want with it. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.800 I mean, don't put it on the internet. But you know, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.520 however it can help please because we have to pass 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.400 the word on, we need to support each other. But 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:33.880 so back to the starticle, I mean, you know, back 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.439 to this agent. She reaches out, She's like, do you 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.520 want to write this book? And I'm like, okay, I guess. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.080 And then as it started coming to life and I 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.000 thought about who I want this book to be for. 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.240 I really wanted it to be for everyone. I wanted 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.000 it to be again for women of color, validating our 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.240 experience because you know, we experienced so much of gaslighting, experience, 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.000 so much off. You know, that was that wasn't at 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.040 all what happened. That wasn't my intention. Like what matters 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.440 is my intention was good. So I'm sorry that I 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.760 behaved in a way that you found to be biased 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.920 or racist. Or sexist, but that wasn't my intention. So 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.880 it was like that really hard to balance both worlds off. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.640 How do you write a book that validates the experiences 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.960 of women of color, which I really hope you know, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.120 when women of color read the book, and again not 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.600 a monolith, but when women of color, brown and black 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.600 women read the book, they feel okay, I feel seen. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.439 That wasn't just in my head. I tried specifically to 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.960 seek out examples of you know, where it wasn't like 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.920 a horrific example where it would be like a legal 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.160 case or whatever it is, which obviously is very important, 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.240 but I was trying to find those very subtle under 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.800 the table slights and biases and you know, what we 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.719 commonly know is microaggressions. Although in the book I talk 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.680 about why I don't like that word, but those every 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.320 day ways of how it shows up and you feel slighted. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.000 So I wanted to capture that. And then I also, yes, 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.560 absolutely wanted to talk to people in power and leadership 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.960 and you know, positions of influence and privilege, because at 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.160 the end of the day, this should never be our 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.520 problem to solve, not even close. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.840 If anyone if you're if you're worried about anyone feeling seen. 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:23.960 All you have to do is read the forward of 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:28.720 the book by Igioma Aluma. So how you say, uhlo 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.160 oh see you realize I read and I do not 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.760 say things out loud enough, and I really ought to 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.040 not do that. But the forward of this book, I mean, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.400 that whole that that that's what grabbed me. And I 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.920 was like, oh, so we're gonna go there, Yeah, and 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.120 you you do. I mean, the book really can be 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.439 for anyone. But what I love is it holds the 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.720 people who have the power accountable. And I'm curious, Well, 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.640 tell me a little bit about your work. So you've 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.040 launched this consulting firm for how long now? And tell 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.920 me about what you do and what has been some 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.480 of the feedback you've gotten from people in power and 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.200 leadership that company who so often you know, don't look 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.160 like us as to why things take so long for 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.719 them to get it together. If you can comment on 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:15.320 that'd be great. 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.560 Oh my gosh. Well, firstly, when you talked about how 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.400 you were at a fintech company, it took me right 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:27.360 back to really what launched my work in diversity, equity 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.800 and inclusion well before it was trendy, and about a 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.120 decade ago, I was at a tech company and it 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:39.200 was a very very painful and lonely experience in that 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.160 in that company, I was the only woman of color 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.920 in my department. I felt very hyper visible and invisible 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.760 at the same time, which you know, academic research shows 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.199 is very much the experience of women of color when 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.160 we're the only, the first, one of the few, the 0:12:55.240 --> 0:13:00.360 different a Shonda Rhimes calls us the fods. So I, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.600 uh first, only different. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.880 Oh right, okay, that's awesome. Yeah right, it is hyper 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.679 It's like that that even what you just said, it's 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.080 like the same thing. You feel hyper visible and invisible 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.719 at the same time. Hyper visible. For me, it was 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.800 like hyper visible when I screwed something up, like everyone 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.080 was going to know and I was going to be, 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.119 you know whatever, held back by it, and then invisible 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.480 when the fun stuff came along, is how. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:32.360 I told Y. Yeah, very painful, very lonely, and I 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:37.000 think exacerbated by the fact that our laws and our 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.959 you know, the way HR operates. And you know, I'm 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.280 so glad you brought up Iguoma's forward, which by the way, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.319 was just I mean, when I read it, I had chills, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.640 I had tears. I didn't, you know, and I went 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.400 with BacT Press is an academic publisher, you know, by 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.760 sort of traditions. So I didn't curse in the book. 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.079 And you know, I wrote to my editor, I was like, Hi, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.520 so it says the list, and I know, you know, 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.800 and and just in general in my own writing, I 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.240 don't really curse. So I was like, what is can 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.480 we keep this in because I think it's really necessary 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.720 and she's like, yeah, given that there was a literal list, yes, 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.320 so I've lost, like I've lost my trade of thought. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.880 But yeah, it's a very it's a very painful, lonely 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:23.200 existence and often you don't know where you can turn. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.440 And one of the reasons why I then, you know, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.040 I went through this experience. I quit, I leaped into entrepreneurship, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.960 didn't know what was coming, had somewhat of a safety 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.760 net because I'd been saving. And then I also, you know, 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.320 I'm married to a spouse who works in tech, worked 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.880 at continues to work in tech, so I could take 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.840 that leap in a way that I know that for 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.800 so many women of color I've spoken to since and 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.080 even for the book, it's very very tough, and I 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:56.160 acknowledged my privilege being able to do that. And as 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.000 I as I got into consulting also completely in an 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.320 inadvertent it wasn't planned. At that time, there was no 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.400 real language around diversity, equity and inclusion that was really 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.400 meaningfully being heard. Right, there were those really big vendors 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.880 that would get these big contracts with these big companies, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.200 and they would do a sort of check the box exercise. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.240 They'd be like compliance and leal, which you know, of 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.880 course I'm not a lawyer. So there was that, and 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.680 then there was me over here trying to say, there 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.320 needs to be more. There has to be more to 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.760 address the more subtle but very harmful behaviors that we 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.280 are seeing day in and day out that I'm hearing about, 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.520 that experience that I'm researching about. And so when I 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.760 launched Candor, and it's not very old, you know, I 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.840 incorporated Candor, my consulting firm, in twenty seventeen, so it's 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.400 actually not even that old. I did it when my 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.040 child was less than a year old, and I really, 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:59.280 in many ways just did it because I was like, well, 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.680 I'll go back into some sort of like a corporate 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.880 space eventually, right, Like I am trained as a journalist, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.600 Maybe I'll just take a few more years off. Maybe 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.960 I'll do a couple of like short projects, probably not 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:12.840 going to make a lot of money, and then go 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:18.160 back into something more full time. And maybe it was 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.200 the moment, Maybe it was the timing. Maybe it was 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.960 the fact that we reached this point of no return 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:31.200 after the twenty sixteen elections. But something just switched for me, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.080 and in many ways, I think for a lot more 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.240 corporate leaders. So the conversations I was starting to happen 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.920 even before twenty seventeen, but really since twenty seventeen was 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.240 more corporate leaders saying I see that there's a problem, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.480 like I'm really seeing it now, And even if I 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.840 want to make a change, I don't know how. I 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:57.360 don't know where to get started. Many folks had really 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:01.040 good intentions but did not really think about the impact, 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.320 or care about the impact, or have words to talk 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.600 about the impact that they were having on women of color, 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:11.560 especially black and brown women. And I think that's that 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.679 led me to want to write this book. You know, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.359 I started doing it through my other writing. I explored 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.120 through all my other writing. I was really exploring this 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.840 this reality that was so clear to me that for 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.720 women of color the workplace was so different than the 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.320 experience of white women in the workplace. And I never 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.840 thought that there would be appetite for it. And the 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.960 fact that there is it, you know, it's it really 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:40.520 is remarkable right now. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.000 Yeah, you mentioned you're launching entrepreneurship, and I'm kind of 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.399 nodding my head because I just launched my own entrepreneurial 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.280 journey this past summer. Yeah, I know, it hasn't even 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:54.159 been a year yet. I'm just I'm a newborn entrepreneur entrepreneur, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:59.320 and I too had privileged you know, I had scrolled 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.199 away and I had to ask myself, you know, what 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.760 was it all for if I can't just dive off 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.400 this cliff and see what happens, you know. And then 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.760 my husband, who I've talked about, he's my health he's 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:11.800 my health insurance card. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.480 Same here, same Yeah. 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.920 Isn't it nice? Although I tell women all the time, 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.520 you know, there's the healthcare marketplace, you can make it happen. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.280 But let's talk about entrepreneurship, because I mean, you also 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.320 share this stat in the book, which I want to 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:30.080 pull up really quickly, and there's a couple of different stats. Also, 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.720 you know other data that has shown that women of 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.960 color are just the fatigue. And I'm imagining two big 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.399 factors are twenty sixteen election in the summer of twenty 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.199 twenty just sort of culminated in the sense of like, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.679 get us out of here, Yeah, get us out of 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.920 this place. We're so tired of it. And what I 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.840 what I feel like is happening is right at the 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.959 point when companies are finally almost getting it and starting 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.680 to invest more in these initiatives. For a lot of us, 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.000 it's it's like too little, too late, And I'm wondering. 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.240 I want to get your take on that, because I 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.879 have found I have a group coaching cohort called the 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.720 Mandy money Makers. My eighth week is this week. My 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.640 first core is done and I'm twenty four amazing women 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.240 of color. We're in this first cohort and we had 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:21.679 I thought if it was last week. Week before I 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.320 talked all about entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship and how to be 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.919 entrepreneurial at work and how that benefited my career. And 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.400 I remember one of the a couple of times on 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.680 one of my one of my makers was like, but Mandy, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.959 like you left corporate America, is there no hope? And 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.320 I feel deeply that there is hope, But yet I'm 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.040 also like, for me, the story was a little bit over. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:43.000 But how do you? 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.480 How do you? How do you sort of respond to 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.399 those questions? Because I'm with you, I do believe that 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.520 there's good intentions out there, that people are willing to 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.040 change and want to change and create a better place 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.399 for women of color to work. But what But I 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.720 also grapple with for some of us, who's too little, 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.640 too late? Yeah, go in and get out, girl, take 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.520 care talent elsewhere. Two things can be true. 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:07.720 What do you feel about that? 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.239 You're I mean literally what you said. Two things can 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.120 be true. And I've met a lot of people who 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.320 are in corporate environments where they have felt supported and 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.400 seen and heard. They may not have always felt that way, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.760 but they're in a place, they've landed in a place 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.879 where they do feel that way. They feel really they 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.119 get a lot of meaningful joy out of the work 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.920 that they do, the team that they interact with, they 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.840 want to be part of, like a bigger picture within 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:38.040 an organization. And for over a while, that was me. 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.120 I really did feel that way. I was very excited 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.240 and energized by the work I was doing. What became 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.320 far too much to bear, far too toxic in the 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.000 long run, you know. And this was even before I 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.760 had a child. I cannot believe, but I cannot imagine 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.560 what it would have felt like to come home to 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.159 a child with some of the toxicity I was dealing 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.240 with at that time, and how could I really be 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.760 present as a person, as a human being, as a mom, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:08.360 as a caretaker. But I think for some people, they 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.600 really like that environment. They really, I mean, you know, 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:12.280