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Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, via fam, It's Mandy here with another episode

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Speaker 1: of Brown Ambition and today's conversation. Y'all, I cannot wait

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Speaker 1: for you to hear it. We continue to send love

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Speaker 1: and lots of hugs to Tiffany and send her all

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Speaker 1: the healing and positive vibes that she could need. As always,

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Speaker 1: if you guys want to send her a note of support,

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Speaker 1: you can find her at the Budgetiesta on all channels.

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Speaker 2: We love you, Tiffany.

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Speaker 1: As y'all know, I have been talking up Rachica til

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Speaker 1: sheien ever since I was turned on to her work

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Speaker 1: by her viral article in the Harvard Business Review called

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Speaker 1: stop telling women that we have imposter Syndrome. I will

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Speaker 1: put another link to that article in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, Rachika has a new book coming out,

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Speaker 1: and it is truly extraordinary. I would say it's required

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Speaker 1: reading for anyone in a leadership position, really for anyone

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Speaker 1: in general. But if you even own a teeny tiny

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Speaker 1: fraction of a percentage of decisions at a company that

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Speaker 1: could impact what it's like to work there for women

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Speaker 1: of color, this book has to be on your reading list.

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Speaker 1: It needs to be at your desk, on your desk,

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Speaker 1: share it with a friend. It's called Inclusion on Purpose,

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Speaker 1: an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work.

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Speaker 1: It is out this month, and we are joined today

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Speaker 1: by the author herself, Ruchica Tulsian. Ruchka is so multifaceted.

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Speaker 1: She and I share a background in business journalism, which

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Speaker 1: is just one of the many connections that we've realized

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Speaker 1: we had. She also spent some time working in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: although now she is calling us from her new home

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Speaker 1: for the past nine years on the West Coast in Seattle.

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Speaker 1: Cheka is an author, a keynote speaker, and she founded

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Speaker 1: her own company called Candor, which is an inclusion strategy practice.

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Speaker 1: As a former international business journalist, Ruchica's writing has appeared

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Speaker 1: in places like The New York Times, a Harvard Business Review,

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Speaker 1: and of course, her brand new book, Inclusion on Purpose,

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Speaker 1: is out on shelves now. Please go pick up a copy.

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Speaker 1: So today Ratchika and I sat down to talk about

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Speaker 1: the themes in her book, as well as her experience

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Speaker 1: actually being a change agent, going into companies as a

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Speaker 1: consultant to help them figure out how to do DEE

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Speaker 1: and I initiatives correctly and I mean, honestly, she and

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Speaker 1: I just connected on so many levels, and I think

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Speaker 1: first and foremost are general. You know, we were generally

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Speaker 1: in agreement that we can still be optimistic, that there

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Speaker 1: are places where we can feel included, we can feel

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Speaker 1: like we have equal opportunity for success. They unfortunately are

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Speaker 1: not as common as we'd all like them to be.

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Speaker 1: But we realistically kind of look at what it's like

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Speaker 1: to be women of color with ambition, wanting to move

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Speaker 1: up in today's society, in today's world, and what it

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Speaker 1: can actually take for us to get there and not

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Speaker 1: get burnt out along the way. So, without further ado,

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Speaker 1: I will get out of my own way and welcome

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Speaker 1: our guest today again. Her name is Rachika till sheian.

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Speaker 1: To find out more about Rechika, go to Inclusion on

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Speaker 1: Purpose dot co, and of course check the show notes

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Speaker 1: for all the links and where to find her book

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Speaker 1: and find out more about her incredible work. Here's my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Rechika. All right, Va, fam, I have been

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Speaker 1: talking about today's guests for what feels like weeks, and

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to finally be sitting across virtually

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Speaker 1: from who a woman who I feel like you kind

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Speaker 1: of know when you're immediately going to connect with someone,

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Speaker 1: and just you have the same philosophy about life, you

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Speaker 1: kind of see things through a similar lens. And within

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Speaker 1: the first ten pages of reading her brand new book,

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Speaker 1: Inclusion on Purpose, I was just like, I, Rechika has

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Speaker 1: to be on Brown Ambition and we have to be

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Speaker 1: friends and it's going to happen, and this is all happening,

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Speaker 1: and Rechika told Shan is actually here.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, Mandy, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited.

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Speaker 1: And you actually are aware of brown ambition, which is

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Speaker 1: extraordinary to me. It tells me we are branding ourselves correctly.

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Speaker 1: If you found us, that is what we want.

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Speaker 3: You are And I just want to say that it

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Speaker 3: is It's a really lonely endeavor to be a brown entrepreneur,

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Speaker 3: right and build a business, a brown and black entrepreneur,

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Speaker 3: and you know, essentially part of a demographic that is

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Speaker 3: often you know, really overlooked and under sponsored and underestimated

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Speaker 3: and underfunded. And knowing that there's a community out there

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Speaker 3: building you know through really really like tall hardship is like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, what more can you need? Right? So please

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Speaker 3: know that the community you're building is really very special

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Speaker 3: and so necessary, and of course it's my pleasure and

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Speaker 3: honor to be here. And of course, in preparation of

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Speaker 3: this interview, when I when I listened to Stacy Abram's interview,

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Speaker 3: that was that was like a very special, meaningful experience.

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Speaker 3: I mean, firstly, is there anything this person cannot do right?

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Speaker 3: Like just help? It liked not a thing, but also

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Speaker 3: so thoughtful and insightful the way the questions you asked

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Speaker 3: her and her co author Heather I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: just you did such a good job, Bendy.

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Speaker 1: Thank you well, thank you so much. And what I

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Speaker 1: love about you. Actually listened to your interview with Brene Brown,

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Speaker 1: you and your friend and fellow colleague, Jodyanne Burry.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct, Jodyane Berry?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jodyanne Berry, excellent work. I'm also trying to get

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Speaker 1: her on Brown Ambition. So if you want to text her,

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Speaker 1: she's probably snowboarding or something.

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Speaker 2: But get all the show.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I will text her right away, of course.

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Speaker 1: No, but this is the R Chica Show, so we're

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Speaker 1: going to focus on you. Tell me about this book. Well, first,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you my first my first reaction to

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Speaker 1: reading the book was I was so grateful to it

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Speaker 1: because a part of my story, which if you've listened

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Speaker 1: to Brown Ambition, you know, I spent five years in

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Speaker 1: a senior leadership position managing a team, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily a Google or an Amazon, but it

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Speaker 1: was a relatively big fintech company. And I just remember

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Speaker 1: when I, you know, got that job at like twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: twenty nine, feeling this real sense of responsibility, like I

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Speaker 1: can't pick this up.

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Speaker 2: I'm a black.

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Speaker 1: Woman in charge. I get to hire people, I get

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Speaker 1: to review resumes. I'm going to try to do it

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Speaker 1: with the e I'm going to try to do things right.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try to use my little, you know,

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Speaker 1: corner of influence, my little you know, my little zone

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Speaker 1: of influence, and take small incremental steps toward making this

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Speaker 1: company more inclusive without even telling them.

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Speaker 2: I didn't tell them.

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Speaker 1: I was like a covert operator, like, oh, there's going

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Speaker 1: to be some black women in this team, and you

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Speaker 1: know all that. And what I love about your book

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Speaker 1: is that it really feels like it was written for

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Speaker 1: people in places of power and not necessarily to women

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Speaker 1: of color. We already know it's hard we already know

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Speaker 1: how challenging it can be. And when you were approaching

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Speaker 1: this book, I mean, I know that's so much of

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Speaker 1: what you talk about. You have a firm where you

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Speaker 1: consult and provide trainings to corporations, but talk to me

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Speaker 1: about intentionally speaking to the people who have the power

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Speaker 1: about this issue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was actually a very complicated, you know, especially

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Speaker 3: when this book was in proposal stage. It was really

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Speaker 3: complicated because what happens is when you're shopping a book

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Speaker 3: proposal around is you need to have a really clear

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Speaker 3: idea of and you need to literally stay like who

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Speaker 3: are you trying to reach out to? And for me,

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Speaker 3: it was everyone, you know, I really I wanted women

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Speaker 3: of color to be able to see this and feel

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Speaker 3: seen and read it and feel validated because in honestly,

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Speaker 3: every author, in some way, shape or form, writes the

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Speaker 3: book that they needed and didn't have. And that's how

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Speaker 3: I felt when I even conceptualized the idea of inclusion

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Speaker 3: on purpose, which by the way, only came to light

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Speaker 3: because a woman of color agent reached out to me

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Speaker 3: years ago and said, Hey, I read this one article

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Speaker 3: you wrote on Harvard Business Review. It was not a

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Speaker 3: viral article. It was not like the you know, imposter

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Speaker 3: syndrome one which I feel so proud to co author

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Speaker 3: with Jodiane, But it was a very it was it

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Speaker 3: was an article that was very meaningful to me about

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Speaker 3: corporate diversity efforts leaving out women of color. And she

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Speaker 3: reached out to me, She's like, have you thought about

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Speaker 3: writing a book, another book, a traditionally published one. Do

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Speaker 3: you have an agent? And I was like, no, of course,

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Speaker 3: not like I have no, I don't know me really,

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Speaker 3: I mean, what could I contribute to this?

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Speaker 1: But you'd already published a book before, so you independently

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Speaker 1: published your first book essentially.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was blogging for Forbes and they were

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Speaker 3: trying to They were essentially, you know, experimenting with an

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Speaker 3: ebook platform, and so the diversity advantage was part of that,

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Speaker 3: but not at all. A traditional publishing process by any

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Speaker 3: means no agent, no you know, which, of course is

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Speaker 3: a mistake by the way, for anyone listening, if you

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Speaker 3: are planning to publish a book in any way, shape

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Speaker 3: or form, whether even if you publish, if eventually decide

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Speaker 3: to publish independently and self published, it's always a good

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Speaker 3: idea to at least talk to an agent anyway, So.

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Speaker 1: That that's me.

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Speaker 2: I'm your audience right now, keep talking.

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Speaker 3: Oh and I'm you know, and I'm happy to I

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Speaker 3: By the way, when I was done with my book proposal,

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Speaker 3: I sent it to a lot of people. I sent

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Speaker 3: it specifically to women of color. I said, use what

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Speaker 3: you need from this, do what you want with it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, don't put it on the internet. But you know,

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Speaker 3: however it can help please because we have to pass

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Speaker 3: the word on, we need to support each other. But

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Speaker 3: so back to the starticle, I mean, you know, back

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Speaker 3: to this agent. She reaches out, She's like, do you

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Speaker 3: want to write this book? And I'm like, okay, I guess.

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Speaker 3: And then as it started coming to life and I

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Speaker 3: thought about who I want this book to be for.

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Speaker 3: I really wanted it to be for everyone. I wanted

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Speaker 3: it to be again for women of color, validating our

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Speaker 3: experience because you know, we experienced so much of gaslighting, experience,

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Speaker 3: so much off. You know, that was that wasn't at

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Speaker 3: all what happened. That wasn't my intention. Like what matters

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Speaker 3: is my intention was good. So I'm sorry that I

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Speaker 3: behaved in a way that you found to be biased

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Speaker 3: or racist. Or sexist, but that wasn't my intention. So

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Speaker 3: it was like that really hard to balance both worlds off.

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Speaker 3: How do you write a book that validates the experiences

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Speaker 3: of women of color, which I really hope you know,

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Speaker 3: when women of color read the book, and again not

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Speaker 3: a monolith, but when women of color, brown and black

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Speaker 3: women read the book, they feel okay, I feel seen.

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Speaker 3: That wasn't just in my head. I tried specifically to

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Speaker 3: seek out examples of you know, where it wasn't like

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Speaker 3: a horrific example where it would be like a legal

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Speaker 3: case or whatever it is, which obviously is very important,

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Speaker 3: but I was trying to find those very subtle under

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Speaker 3: the table slights and biases and you know, what we

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Speaker 3: commonly know is microaggressions. Although in the book I talk

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Speaker 3: about why I don't like that word, but those every

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Speaker 3: day ways of how it shows up and you feel slighted.

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Speaker 3: So I wanted to capture that. And then I also, yes,

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Speaker 3: absolutely wanted to talk to people in power and leadership

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Speaker 3: and you know, positions of influence and privilege, because at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, this should never be our

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Speaker 3: problem to solve, not even close.

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Speaker 1: If anyone if you're if you're worried about anyone feeling seen.

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Speaker 1: All you have to do is read the forward of

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Speaker 1: the book by Igioma Aluma. So how you say, uhlo

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Speaker 1: oh see you realize I read and I do not

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Speaker 1: say things out loud enough, and I really ought to

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Speaker 1: not do that. But the forward of this book, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that whole that that that's what grabbed me. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, so we're gonna go there, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you you do. I mean, the book really can be

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Speaker 1: for anyone. But what I love is it holds the

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Speaker 1: people who have the power accountable. And I'm curious, Well,

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your work. So you've

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Speaker 1: launched this consulting firm for how long now? And tell

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Speaker 1: me about what you do and what has been some

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Speaker 1: of the feedback you've gotten from people in power and

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Speaker 1: leadership that company who so often you know, don't look

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Speaker 1: like us as to why things take so long for

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Speaker 1: them to get it together. If you can comment on

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Speaker 1: that'd be great.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Well, firstly, when you talked about how

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Speaker 3: you were at a fintech company, it took me right

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Speaker 3: back to really what launched my work in diversity, equity

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Speaker 3: and inclusion well before it was trendy, and about a

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Speaker 3: decade ago, I was at a tech company and it

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Speaker 3: was a very very painful and lonely experience in that

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Speaker 3: in that company, I was the only woman of color

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Speaker 3: in my department. I felt very hyper visible and invisible

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Speaker 3: at the same time, which you know, academic research shows

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Speaker 3: is very much the experience of women of color when

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Speaker 3: we're the only, the first, one of the few, the

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Speaker 3: different a Shonda Rhimes calls us the fods. So I,

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Speaker 3: uh first, only different.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, okay, that's awesome. Yeah right, it is hyper

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Speaker 1: It's like that that even what you just said, it's

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Speaker 1: like the same thing. You feel hyper visible and invisible

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Speaker 1: at the same time. Hyper visible. For me, it was

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Speaker 1: like hyper visible when I screwed something up, like everyone

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Speaker 1: was going to know and I was going to be,

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Speaker 1: you know whatever, held back by it, and then invisible

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Speaker 1: when the fun stuff came along, is how.

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Speaker 3: I told Y. Yeah, very painful, very lonely, and I

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Speaker 3: think exacerbated by the fact that our laws and our

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Speaker 3: you know, the way HR operates. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: so glad you brought up Iguoma's forward, which by the way,

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Speaker 3: was just I mean, when I read it, I had chills,

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Speaker 3: I had tears. I didn't, you know, and I went

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Speaker 3: with BacT Press is an academic publisher, you know, by

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Speaker 3: sort of traditions. So I didn't curse in the book.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I wrote to my editor, I was like, Hi,

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Speaker 3: so it says the list, and I know, you know,

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Speaker 3: and and just in general in my own writing, I

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Speaker 3: don't really curse. So I was like, what is can

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Speaker 3: we keep this in because I think it's really necessary

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Speaker 3: and she's like, yeah, given that there was a literal list, yes,

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Speaker 3: so I've lost, like I've lost my trade of thought.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a very it's a very painful, lonely

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Speaker 3: existence and often you don't know where you can turn.

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Speaker 3: And one of the reasons why I then, you know,

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Speaker 3: I went through this experience. I quit, I leaped into entrepreneurship,

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Speaker 3: didn't know what was coming, had somewhat of a safety

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Speaker 3: net because I'd been saving. And then I also, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm married to a spouse who works in tech, worked

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Speaker 3: at continues to work in tech, so I could take

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Speaker 3: that leap in a way that I know that for

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Speaker 3: so many women of color I've spoken to since and

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Speaker 3: even for the book, it's very very tough, and I

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Speaker 3: acknowledged my privilege being able to do that. And as

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Speaker 3: I as I got into consulting also completely in an

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Speaker 3: inadvertent it wasn't planned. At that time, there was no

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Speaker 3: real language around diversity, equity and inclusion that was really

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Speaker 3: meaningfully being heard. Right, there were those really big vendors

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Speaker 3: that would get these big contracts with these big companies,

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Speaker 3: and they would do a sort of check the box exercise.

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Speaker 3: They'd be like compliance and leal, which you know, of

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Speaker 3: course I'm not a lawyer. So there was that, and

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Speaker 3: then there was me over here trying to say, there

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Speaker 3: needs to be more. There has to be more to

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Speaker 3: address the more subtle but very harmful behaviors that we

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Speaker 3: are seeing day in and day out that I'm hearing about,

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Speaker 3: that experience that I'm researching about. And so when I

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Speaker 3: launched Candor, and it's not very old, you know, I

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Speaker 3: incorporated Candor, my consulting firm, in twenty seventeen, so it's

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Speaker 3: actually not even that old. I did it when my

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Speaker 3: child was less than a year old, and I really,

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Speaker 3: in many ways just did it because I was like, well,

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Speaker 3: I'll go back into some sort of like a corporate

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Speaker 3: space eventually, right, Like I am trained as a journalist,

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'll just take a few more years off. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I'll do a couple of like short projects, probably not

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Speaker 3: going to make a lot of money, and then go

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Speaker 3: back into something more full time. And maybe it was

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Speaker 3: the moment, Maybe it was the timing. Maybe it was

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Speaker 3: the fact that we reached this point of no return

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Speaker 3: after the twenty sixteen elections. But something just switched for me,

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Speaker 3: and in many ways, I think for a lot more

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Speaker 3: corporate leaders. So the conversations I was starting to happen

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Speaker 3: even before twenty seventeen, but really since twenty seventeen was

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Speaker 3: more corporate leaders saying I see that there's a problem,

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Speaker 3: like I'm really seeing it now, And even if I

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Speaker 3: want to make a change, I don't know how. I

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Speaker 3: don't know where to get started. Many folks had really

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Speaker 3: good intentions but did not really think about the impact,

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Speaker 3: or care about the impact, or have words to talk

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Speaker 3: about the impact that they were having on women of color,

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Speaker 3: especially black and brown women. And I think that's that

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Speaker 3: led me to want to write this book. You know,

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Speaker 3: I started doing it through my other writing. I explored

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Speaker 3: through all my other writing. I was really exploring this

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Speaker 3: this reality that was so clear to me that for

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Speaker 3: women of color the workplace was so different than the

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Speaker 3: experience of white women in the workplace. And I never

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Speaker 3: thought that there would be appetite for it. And the

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Speaker 3: fact that there is it, you know, it's it really

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Speaker 3: is remarkable right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned you're launching entrepreneurship, and I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: nodding my head because I just launched my own entrepreneurial

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Speaker 1: journey this past summer. Yeah, I know, it hasn't even

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Speaker 1: been a year yet. I'm just I'm a newborn entrepreneur entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: and I too had privileged you know, I had scrolled

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Speaker 1: away and I had to ask myself, you know, what

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Speaker 1: was it all for if I can't just dive off

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Speaker 1: this cliff and see what happens, you know. And then

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Speaker 1: my husband, who I've talked about, he's my health he's

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Speaker 1: my health insurance card.

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Speaker 3: Same here, same Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it nice? Although I tell women all the time,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's the healthcare marketplace, you can make it happen.

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about entrepreneurship, because I mean, you also

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Speaker 1: share this stat in the book, which I want to

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Speaker 1: pull up really quickly, and there's a couple of different stats. Also,

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Speaker 1: you know other data that has shown that women of

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Speaker 1: color are just the fatigue. And I'm imagining two big

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Speaker 1: factors are twenty sixteen election in the summer of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty just sort of culminated in the sense of like,

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Speaker 1: get us out of here, Yeah, get us out of

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Speaker 1: this place. We're so tired of it. And what I

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Speaker 1: what I feel like is happening is right at the

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Speaker 1: point when companies are finally almost getting it and starting

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Speaker 1: to invest more in these initiatives. For a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like too little, too late, And I'm wondering.

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Speaker 1: I want to get your take on that, because I

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Speaker 1: have found I have a group coaching cohort called the

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Speaker 1: Mandy money Makers. My eighth week is this week. My

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Speaker 1: first core is done and I'm twenty four amazing women

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Speaker 1: of color. We're in this first cohort and we had

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Speaker 1: I thought if it was last week. Week before I

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Speaker 1: talked all about entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship and how to be

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurial at work and how that benefited my career. And

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Speaker 1: I remember one of the a couple of times on

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Speaker 1: one of my one of my makers was like, but Mandy,

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Speaker 1: like you left corporate America, is there no hope? And

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Speaker 1: I feel deeply that there is hope, But yet I'm

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Speaker 1: also like, for me, the story was a little bit over.

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Speaker 3: But how do you?

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Speaker 1: How do you? How do you sort of respond to

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Speaker 1: those questions? Because I'm with you, I do believe that

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Speaker 1: there's good intentions out there, that people are willing to

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Speaker 1: change and want to change and create a better place

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Speaker 1: for women of color to work. But what But I

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Speaker 1: also grapple with for some of us, who's too little,

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Speaker 1: too late? Yeah, go in and get out, girl, take

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Speaker 1: care talent elsewhere. Two things can be true.

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Speaker 2: What do you feel about that?

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Speaker 3: You're I mean literally what you said. Two things can

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Speaker 3: be true. And I've met a lot of people who

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Speaker 3: are in corporate environments where they have felt supported and

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Speaker 3: seen and heard. They may not have always felt that way,

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Speaker 3: but they're in a place, they've landed in a place

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Speaker 3: where they do feel that way. They feel really they

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Speaker 3: get a lot of meaningful joy out of the work

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Speaker 3: that they do, the team that they interact with, they

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Speaker 3: want to be part of, like a bigger picture within

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Speaker 3: an organization. And for over a while, that was me.

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Speaker 3: I really did feel that way. I was very excited

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Speaker 3: and energized by the work I was doing. What became

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Speaker 3: far too much to bear, far too toxic in the

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Speaker 3: long run, you know. And this was even before I

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Speaker 3: had a child. I cannot believe, but I cannot imagine

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Speaker 3: what it would have felt like to come home to

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Speaker 3: a child with some of the toxicity I was dealing

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Speaker 3: with at that time, and how could I really be

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Speaker 3: present as a person, as a human being, as a mom,

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Speaker 3: as a caretaker. But I think for some people, they

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Speaker 3: really like that environment. They really, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: they like the work they do. They find it to

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Speaker 3: be meaningful. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, right, And I

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Speaker 3: actually think that there's a specific type of person in

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Speaker 3: my sort of group of friends who are entrepreneurs and

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Speaker 3: the people I admire like you do have to be

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Speaker 3: really ready to take that risk, right, It is risky,

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Speaker 3: and whether it's because you have a safety net or

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Speaker 3: whether it's because there's some other reason, but that risk

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Speaker 3: is a very big part of it. And I hate

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Speaker 3: that for women of color who may not want to

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Speaker 3: take that risk, for whom they know, entrepreneurship is not

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Speaker 3: the way forward when they feel compelled to make that

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Speaker 3: leap because they're having such a terrible experience in the workplace.

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Speaker 3: They're experiencing racism and bias and sexism and misogyny in

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Speaker 3: all of those things. I really wish that there was

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Speaker 3: a better way. And that's why I can't think of

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Speaker 3: a more urgent you know, leadership sort of quality, trait, priority,

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Speaker 3: call it what you want. Then inclusion right then really

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Speaker 3: focusing and prioritizing what are people who have historically been marginalized,

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Speaker 3: left out, overlooked, underestimated, What are they feeling, what are

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Speaker 3: they going through? How can I use my privilege to

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Speaker 3: change that experience so that we retain this amazing, innovative,

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Speaker 3: ambitious That's the part that always gets I feel like

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Speaker 3: it gets hidden, But the data is so clear women

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Speaker 3: of color, and this is a like women of color,

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Speaker 3: we know, not a monolith across you know, categories, which demographics,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. Women of color are consistently far more ambitious

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Speaker 3: than are white counterparts. Are white women counterparts. So the

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Speaker 3: fact that we are leaving the fact that we are

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Speaker 3: not getting the support and the you know, yeah, support

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Speaker 3: and sponsorship and funding that we need we're getting underpaid,

432
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 3: we're getting overlooked. It just it really breaks my heart

433
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 3: because the opportunity, in my mind, is endless to retain

434
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 3: and to promote women of color who are ambitious, who

435
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 3: are not you know, who are not leaving for the

436
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: reasons that our media keeps banding about. You know, they

437
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: as soon as they become moms, they want to leave.

438
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: I mean, the data around women of color does not

439
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 3: show that.

440
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: Oh please, as soon as we become moms, I want nothing.

441
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: I wanted nothing more than to go back to work.

442
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, it's.

443
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: Not good for me.

444
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: No, no, it wasn't for me either. Yes, And these

445
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: are the stories. These are the stories I don't hear, right,

446
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 3: the stories I hear in the media. In this is

447
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 3: why your work is so important, because what I hear

448
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 3: is like you, you know, you feel so shameful and

449
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: it's so terrible, and you're like, you know, it's so

450
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 3: hard to have to go back to work and all

451
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 3: of that, and I think of women of color whom for?

452
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: And this is why, specifically in my book, I did

453
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 3: not have a chapter around women of color and caregiving,

454
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 3: because I said, our realities are so different and they're

455
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 3: also varied. It's so nuanced that you can't capture it

456
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 3: in one book. But you know, for a lot of

457
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: women of color, we've not had that luxury of choice. Like,

458
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 3: we've not had that luxury. You know, many of us

459
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: have ancestors and family and friends who've had to go

460
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 3: back right after giving birth right because of the lack

461
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: of social structures in this country where there wasn't that

462
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: privilege of choice.

463
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think even more so if you are

464
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: lucky enough like I was, to have paid parental leave,

465
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: which is just not it's astonishing to me in this

466
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: country we still are like one of a handful that

467
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: don't offer. But I almost felt like I need to

468
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: get back, I need to get back.

469
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm missing out.

470
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's also that the you know why

471
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: we call the show Brown Ambition is because you understand

472
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: that it's really you know, sometimes people have so such

473
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: low expectations for us when we walk in the room,

474
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: it's really criminal.

475
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 2: And so I feel like we.

476
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: Overcompensate, We ratchet up our expectations on ourselves and then

477
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 1: we're like, and now we got to go. And you know,

478
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: it's not like people are necessarily thinking when's this person

479
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: is going to come back or whatnot. But we know

480
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: that we have to seize every opportunity we have to

481
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: make an impact that we can keep going.

482
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: And I get it, like.

483
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: That sense of fatigue, and especially with my with my makers,

484
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: talking to them weekend and week out several you know,

485
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: there's been people, you know, women are really getting emotional

486
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: and it is exhausting the labor of all of this.

487
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a little bit about.

488
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: I know your book very much is about inclusive practices

489
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: in business and among leaders, which is incredible, but you know,

490
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: for anyone listening who's struggling with that type of fatigue,

491
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: talk to talk about some like coping mechanisms for that.

492
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: And you know, and it's not always the right approach

493
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: for better or worse, is not always to go to

494
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: HR and air it out because it may not be resolved,

495
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: it may not be resolved in the way that actually

496
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: helps you. But I feel like a lot of us

497
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: are cobbling together those coping mechanisms now and I wanted

498
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: to kind of talk to you about that. What do

499
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: you find working as a woman of color, yourself and

500
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,959
Speaker 1: from people that you talk to help us kind of

501
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: get through it.

502
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, not at all to be self serving, but there

503
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 3: is so much that I wish was available when I

504
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 3: was going through this. And by the way, as an entrepreneur,

505
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 3: you still do. I mean, it's not like I became

506
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur and suddenly everyone was like, oh, you know,

507
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: let me open the doors for you. I've been again overlooked,

508
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: underestimated regularly. I mean literally, as of like one two weeks.

509
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: I've had experiences. When igioma Ulo and I were talking

510
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: backstage before the launch last week, we shared some really

511
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: ridiculous examples of how like I mean, she's a New

512
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: York Times bestselling author and we were talking about experiences

513
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 3: where you know, even she had definitely been you know,

514
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 3: overlooked and underestimated. So I think the number one thing

515
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: is when I think about my contribution to this all,

516
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 3: it is hopefully, you know, my body of work and others.

517
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 3: As I mean, this is not done in a silo

518
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 3: by any stretch of the imagination, but hopefully finding your

519
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 3: stories reflected, knowing that you're not alone, knowing that the

520
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: whatever you may hear in the work place like no, no,

521
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: we didn't mean it that way. I mean, I have

522
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: so many stories of what it was like to be

523
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: in corporations where they're like, it's all in your head,

524
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: or no, that's just the way it's done here, or

525
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 3: maybe you can't deal with it, or maybe you're not

526
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: strong enough, maybe you're not smart enough, like those sorts

527
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: of invalidations. Not it's not a paper cut, by the way,

528
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: which I mean again the sort of white feminism, corporate

529
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: feminism movement calls it, you know, death by a thousand

530
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: paper cuts. It's not. It's it really feels like sometimes

531
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: like a knife in your back all the time, quite

532
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: a lot, I don't want to say all the time,

533
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: but quite a lot. So having resources that validate your

534
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: experience reading podcasts, I mean, communities like this I think

535
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: are really valuable. And because I can think of a

536
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 3: time where I needed it and I didn't have it.

537
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: And then so I started blaming myself. I started falling

538
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: prey to you know, all sorts of feelings of I'm

539
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 3: not good enough, imposters syndrome, this idea of not belonging.

540
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: It's something to do with me. If only I fill

541
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: in the blank, you know, did this, I would be

542
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: able to progress, I'd be able to cope with it

543
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 3: better and having you know, tools around that is really

544
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 3: helpful the tribe, the community. Again, when I moved to

545
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 3: Seattle nine years ago, it's it's a very white place,

546
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: and a lot of the folks that I connected with

547
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: initially and was sort of introduced to everyone was white.

548
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: And so when I would talk about my experiences, I

549
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: could see I was making a lot of white people

550
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: uncomfortable or like, oh no, no, you know, even if

551
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: they weren't part of the organization, they'd be like, no, no, no,

552
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: I mean that it wasn't that. I'm sure, I'm sure

553
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: that wasn't what they meant. And that white fragility, I mean,

554
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: it is not. I don't think it's any surprise that

555
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: Robin d'angelo's work on white fragility Igeoma Ulow's work on

556
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 3: So you want to talk about race and mediocre, A

557
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 3: lot of that generates from the Seattle Washington area, which

558
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: is very white, very liberal.

559
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: And I never thought about that, but yeah.

560
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the reason why I bring that up is

561
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: because the experience is even more toxic. Like I moved from.

562
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: Before that, I lived in Atlanta as a journalist of

563
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: business journalists in Atlanta. Before that, I lived in New

564
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: York and then I've lived in other countries around the world.

565
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: Seattle is so specific and unique. It is liberal, right.

566
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: We we've always voted blue for as long as I think,

567
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: you know, there are records, and so because there is

568
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: that sort of liberal umbrella, the slights and that everyday

569
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: racism quote casual racism isn't fully explored or understood or

570
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: even even accepted.

571
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think we're kind of like at the

572
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: epicenter of white fragility. I just realized I visited Seattle,

573
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: and I didn't like it. Maybe you're articulating why.

574
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: It's but I also took place like.

575
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: Park Slope, but bigger way, bigger parkshow Brooklyn, which is

576
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: like a super gentrified part of Brooklyn here in New

577
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: York where I am on the.

578
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: Other side of the world. Yeah, I mean, kudos to you.

579
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: For staying there and fighting the good fight.

580
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: Because back to the tribe. You need your tribe, you know,

581
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: And so I started slowly building that because when you're

582
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: going through this experience and experiences, you need a tribe.

583
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: You need people to remind you that it's not just

584
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: in your head, it's not just you know, if you

585
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: do more power poses You're not going to just suddenly

586
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 3: overcome those feelings that you're feeling. And that became really

587
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: important and meaningful for me.

588
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for reaffirming what I am always talking about.

589
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: It's just it's human beings. You know, it doesn't matter

590
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: if you've got two, three, five hundred, or just you

591
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: know five people that you can kind of turn.

592
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: To for support.

593
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: But it you know what made I remember when I

594
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: was at my last when I was a senior director

595
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: at my last company, I recruited and she's still there.

596
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: Her name's is Matmnga. I love her. She was my

597
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: assistant content director and I remember I waited like six

598
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: months to find her. And this was my secret vendetta

599
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: I was. I knew i'd probably I knew that I

600
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: was coming on five years and I was probably going

601
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: to be leaving, or if I was, I just wanted

602
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: to be sure that my successor I was going to

603
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: leave things equal.

604
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: I wanted a woman of color. I did so.

605
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: If Joe Biden was going to go out, you know,

606
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: like he said, I'm going to go find a black

607
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: female Supreme Court justice, I was like, I'm going to

608
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: find a woman of color to replace me unapologetically. I

609
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: didn't broadcast it, but I knew that's what I was doing.

610
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: And I just remember how less lonely I felt having

611
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: ismit there, and you know, we shared a boss and

612
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: you know he was well meaning but flawed, and so

613
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: much of that crap became so much easier to deal

614
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: with because Smith was there, because I could chat about it,

615
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: and you know, I think that's what it's about. It's

616
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: like the small things that happen on a day to day.

617
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: Not everything is like file a complaint worthy or quit

618
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: your job worthy, but it does exhaust then, you know,

619
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: just having a quick outlet to laugh about that or

620
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: constantly just like you know, well now you can't do

621
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: it anymore because you don't have cubicles. A lot of

622
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: us were working at home but just turning around because

623
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: it's been sat behind me and just kind of be

624
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: like did you see this, and like having that bit

625
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: of connection. Selfishly, that's why I went about building my team.

626
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: So it was so chock full of diverse talent because

627
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to find that community at the company.

628
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: I created it myself. And when I was doing that

629
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: session with makers last week and talking about this particular

630
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: session was about encouraging leadership and pursuing leadership opportunities, and

631
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: I could start to hear, you know, a couple of

632
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: folks who had who were very cynical about it, like

633
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of work. Are we really

634
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: gonna you know, it seems like it's even harder to

635
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: get to the top, So why should we try?

636
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: Why bother trying?

637
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: All I can do is point back to that time

638
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: when I was able to create that team and say,

639
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: that's why it is hard and more challenging than it

640
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 1: ought to be for talented folks to find those positions.

641
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 1: But the impact that you can have, I.

642
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: Mean, so if.

643
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: There I can toot my own I'm so proud of that,

644
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: you know, and I it's one of the I have

645
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: to work on my responses for this too.

646
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: Maybe you did to your in book tour.

647
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: Mode, but I want to convince more women of color

648
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: to go for those leadership opportunities. It's it's the hard

649
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: thing to do, but the impact, Like if you just

650
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: think about what ripples you can create, you know, isn't

651
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: that worth it?

652
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: It's so comportant, so worth it, And kudos to you

653
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: for doing that. I also think what has happened all

654
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: this while is that there is a sharp elbows mentality. Firstly,

655
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: the way white supremacy and white capitalist patriarchy has pitted

656
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 3: us against one another. So if you are from different

657
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: communities of being a woman of color, A lot of

658
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 3: women of color, especially newer immigrant women of color like myself,

659
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 3: you know, immigrant women of color to this country, they

660
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 3: don't associate with being women of color, you know, they don't.

661
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: That social and political identity is one that many reject

662
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: because of that concern of like, no, the way to

663
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: get ahead and the way to achieve the American dream

664
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: is to reject that solidarity, to reject my identity, and

665
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: to assimilate and integrate and uphold white supremacy and perpetuate

666
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: anti blackness frankly in many cases too. And so I

667
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 3: think really leaning hard into our social and political identity

668
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 3: as women of color, showing up for one another, really

669
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: advocating for one one another, because it takes so much

670
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 3: of work to get to those leadership positions. And I

671
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 3: suspect one of the reasons, apart from dealing with that

672
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: BS day in and day out on the workplace side,

673
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: is also not feeling like anyone has your back, even

674
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 3: within your own community, right, and I would love for

675
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: us more of us to band together and find ways

676
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 3: to support women of color to get into these high positions.

677
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 3: One of the people I interviewed for the book, Aaron Okuno,

678
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: who is, by the way, based in the Seattle area,

679
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: you know, is part of a group that really supports

680
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 3: women of color candidates running in especially like school board

681
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: and other state elections, sort of very meaningful positions of

682
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 3: political power here in Washington State. But making sure that

683
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 3: there really is a group of women of color and

684
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: some advocates and allies supporting those women of color to run,

685
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: because it's not just about money. It's not just about fundraising,

686
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 3: It's not just about that. It's about it's the enti

687
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 3: it's the visibility process, the communication, all of that, and

688
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: then it's the emotional labor and support for you knowing

689
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: that you're going to be again hyper scrutinized and invisible

690
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: at the same time. Right, women of color candidates here

691
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 3: in Washington State. Some of the stories, some of the few,

692
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 3: the few that I've actually spoken to in person have

693
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 3: talked so much about experiencing such horrific you know, online

694
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 3: abuse and scrutiny and even racism from the media and whatnot,

695
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 3: And you really need that tribe behind you, saying I

696
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 3: believe in you, power on, You're doing this for us.

697
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: Whatever you need, We're here for you. So I hope

698
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: this book also catalyzes that movement and that solidarity and

699
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 3: camaraderie among women of color, different communities of women of color,

700
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: as well as obviously it's like I want everything. I

701
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 3: want all the things. Who knows what's actually going to

702
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: happen and you know where it actually lands. But I

703
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 3: really would like that too.

704
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: It's that scarcity trapped to like, oh, if there's only

705
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: a few of us at the top, there's only so

706
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: many seats, so we have to kind of compete. I

707
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: could keep talking to Rechika all day long, but let's

708
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we will be right back

709
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: with more brown ambition. All right, we are back, and

710
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: here is more of my conversation with Chika Tilcian. I

711
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: want to talk about even kind of a controversial topic

712
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: that came up. I know I'm talking about the Makers

713
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: a lot, but man, not such a fun like focus

714
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: group I get to chill out with every week. And

715
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: one of the controversial things we discussed was I've been

716
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: pretty honest and open that in my career one of

717
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: my most meaningful mentors, allies, whatever you want to call him,

718
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: was a white male at my company, and how I

719
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: benefited from his endorsement throughout my journey and how and

720
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: I encourage because I feel like as black women, we

721
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: tend to we do find our tribe, we find our community,

722
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: those of us who are smart enough to do that.

723
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: If you're not, if you haven't do it, you're you're

724
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: listening to brown ambitions. So I feel like, you know

725
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: you're in the right place, you're doing something. But we

726
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: you know, if once we kind of find our people,

727
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, our community and people that we can commserate

728
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: with and just lean on for support, it's also important,

729
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: I think, for us to be open to even diversifying

730
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: the people who can help us, and sometimes, of course,

731
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: I mean so much the people who have the privilege.

732
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: My former boss, for example, him recognizing his influence and

733
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: then helping me and guiding me and kind of offering,

734
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, speaking my name in rooms.

735
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 2: That he was in.

736
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: I can acknowledge that that was a reason I was

737
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: able to advance. I mean of course I did the

738
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: great work, but having that endorsement, I realized the power

739
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: in that and I always so I want to encourage women.

740
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: And I'll get your take on this too, that you know,

741
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: even if you're not in a company where the people

742
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: with the power and privilege are recognizing that they should

743
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: reach down and pull us up, that you are open

744
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: to the idea of reaching up or reaching over to

745
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: even diversify your you know, your bench of sponsors and allies,

746
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: people who could potentially help you advance, and unfortunately the

747
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: math is not in our favor. A lot of them

748
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: don't look like us. So you know, what are your

749
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that?

750
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: Is that? Am I?

751
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: I don't know.

752
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: Am I going to get canceled for saying that.

753
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: You're one hundred percent right?

754
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: I think because I won't edit it out now if

755
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 1: you say I'm doing no.

756
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: And and by the way, we should we can and

757
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: we totally should have different points of view as well.

758
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 3: There's no one path to success, especially for women of color,

759
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 3: because we are creating it as we walk it. I

760
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: mean we are literally we are literally flying the plane

761
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: as we're building it. Right, We're building and flying at

762
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: the same time because right now there's there's very little

763
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 3: there's like a very little runway. Right we've not really

764
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 3: seen much or nearly enough. And no, I think I

765
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 3: mean again, the reason why I felt this book was

766
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 3: so necessary and urgent is because if more people with

767
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: privilege and power, white male privilege, socio economic privilege, since

768
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: male privilege, would turn around and say, actually, where do

769
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: I have you know, influence, Where are the rooms where

770
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: my voice is heard and reverberates and whose names can

771
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 3: I speak? If more men could do that, if more

772
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: white men could do that, the world would look so

773
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: different because they do that for each other. Right. Research

774
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 3: on sponsorship finds three quarters off white men or or

775
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 3: of sponsors sponsor people of the same race and gender

776
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 3: as them. So, if you're going to be a white

777
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 3: man and you're in a position where you can sponsor someone,

778
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: you can speak someone's name, you know, we should really

779
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: have this person do this top job or get promoted

780
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 3: or you know, lead the big leadership meeting. Three out

781
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: of four times that's going to be someone of the

782
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 3: same race and gender as them. So you do have

783
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: to disrupt the way or of us have been conditioned,

784
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 3: some say hardwired we know race is a social construct,

785
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: but still, in many ways we have been hardwired to

786
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 3: prefer sameness, and as we have evolved as a society,

787
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 3: sameness has meant race and gender, which is ridiculous because

788
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: if you actually look at it from a scientific and

789
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: a DNA standpoint, it's like negligible, right, the difference is

790
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: un negligible. But what I've found is without that awareness,

791
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 3: without that intentionality, it's not going to change. And therefore

792
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 3: I'm less. My focus and the sort of what I'm

793
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 3: trying to build is less around women of color should

794
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 3: reach up and find those sponsors I do. I think

795
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: it's necessary where you have that ability to do so,

796
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 3: where there are opportunities to connect. And therefore, some of

797
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 3: what I recommend in the book is make sure as

798
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 3: an organization or as a leader, you do have opportunities

799
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: to connect people at different levels, off different backgrounds. Make

800
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: sure they're in each other's orbit so that those relationships

801
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: can happen. And my focus is much more on the systemic.

802
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 3: You know, how can white male leaders or white women

803
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: leaders make sure that they are also amplifying and sponsoring

804
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: and making a room and giving credit to women of

805
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 3: color Because that's something that's missing in the pie. I

806
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: think a lot of it is. You know, when I

807
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: used to come in and speak about women's leadership, which

808
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 3: now I do very carefully and thoughtfully. Before it was

809
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 3: like yes, anyone who have me, I'll come in, And

810
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: now when I do it, I'm very careful not to

811
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 3: go into the blame of like you need to do this,

812
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: and you need to try and get a meeting with

813
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: this person that person. I mean, I remember how hard

814
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 3: I hustled when I started Candor. I remember how many

815
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 3: people I tried to make connections with to try and

816
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: sponsor me, people in positions of power and leadership, and

817
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 3: how many turned away from me. And it was one

818
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 3: very specific example of a white man at a very

819
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 3: well known organization who literally bad for me. Literally literally

820
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: went against a lot of the structures that were set

821
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 3: up in the organization that did not want me to

822
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 3: engage with them. He literally went to bad for me.

823
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: He literally went and said, I will only work with Ruchikai,

824
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: will only work with Candor. You have to figure this

825
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 3: out on your end. Yeah, that's what you need those

826
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 3: Yes we do, we.

827
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: Do, and you're absolutely right, it is and this is

828
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: why I kind of feel like mailing a copy of

829
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: this book to every or even not even mailing, but

830
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: I feel like, as a litmus test for anyone interviewing

831
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: for a job, ask them if they've heard of Rachica's book,

832
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: and if it's on if it's on the.

833
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 3: Desk of the CEO, thank you.

834
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: And if the answer is yes, and that's probably a

835
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: safe space for you to to go to work. And

836
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: what I love in my work recently has it's become

837
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: it's become cool now to quit and stuff.

838
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: But like I was doing it way before, and so.

839
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: Were you quitting places where things were just where there

840
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: was a ceiling, instead of waiting for the ceiling to move.

841
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: And like I said, for some of us, it's like

842
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: we don't have time to wait for to catch up

843
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: to us. Like we have families, we have generational poverty.

844
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 1: We may have you know, families relying on us, family

845
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: members relying on us for children. We're just our damn selves.

846
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: We just want to have a nice life. Okay, we

847
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: want to have the wash or dryer. We want a

848
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: door dash on the weekends, like we want to get

849
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: the nice bottle of wine from the top shelf, not

850
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: the bottom where it's like seven dollars, you know what

851
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: I mean?

852
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 3: That's fine, so speaking my love life right.

853
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: And for us, you know, it's okay to leave a

854
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: place where you don't have the support. But what I

855
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: don't want people to feel like is there's not places

856
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: where you can be supported. It just is a higher bar.

857
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: It's a higher bar. And that's why it's more important

858
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 1: for us than ever to talk to one another. Where

859
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: are you happy? Where have you been happy to work?

860
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: And how can I scoop you up.

861
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 2: And bring you over here?

862
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: You know? And I loved my last I actually really

863
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: loved the place I worked for five years. It was

864
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: a wonderful place. And every I was like, come get

865
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: this money, y'all.

866
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: Come on, I'm gonna get you some equity.

867
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: They got sign on bonuses, like I wanted to help

868
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: other people build wealth in my own little small way.

869
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I I generally feel optimistic. As much as

870
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: there's plenty to be cynical about and plenty to be

871
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: pessimistic about, I generally do have hope for things for

872
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: women of color in corporate America that things will keep

873
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: incrementally proving. At the same time, like I agree with

874
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: you that we have to sometimes move things in our

875
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,959
Speaker 1: favor a little bit quicker because we just can't wait

876
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: for everyone to catch up and make these These changes

877
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: are not necessarily immediate quick fixes, you know, how to

878
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: become a more inclusive workplace, right, I mean, they're going

879
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: to take time. So if it's not there yet, it's

880
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: go want and get out and go somewhere where it's fine.

881
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely you should go. Literally that I mean,

882
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: during the whole nicole Hannah Jones Saga, I kept seeing

883
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 3: this quote again and again. Right, go where you are celebrated,

884
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: not just tolerated, and in some cases not even tolerated.

885
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 3: I think that is a very important piece of advice

886
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 3: to keep top of mind. And I think because women

887
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: of color are expected to be grateful, to be you know,

888
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 3: fill in the blind cure, like whatever the word is is,

889
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 3: you know, submissive or grateful or like, oh I'm just

890
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: so I'm just so thankful that like someone would give

891
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 3: me a job. We're supposed to just be okay with

892
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 3: crappy conditions. Absolutely not. And I understand, I understand, and

893
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 3: I recognize and acknowledge the privilege inherent in that statement,

894
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 3: which is why I understand like this is not you know,

895
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: I wish that I wish that every single person and

896
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: I and I envision a world and I want to

897
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 3: be optimistic for a world where every single person has

898
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 3: the opportunity to do that for themselves. I do think

899
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of people in between where

900
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 3: there is an opportunity to move to better and greater things,

901
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: and you or the way that you've been conditioned holds

902
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: you back. And I and I really hope that for

903
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 3: folks listening to this you really sit down and think,

904
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 3: what are the ways that I can make my dreams

905
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 3: come true? Because you know life is, life is short,

906
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 3: We know life is really precious. The time we're living

907
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: in right now is absolutely wild a in a not

908
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 3: good way, right, So yeah, how can you make your

909
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: dreams come true?

910
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: It's so hard?

911
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: And I love that you pointed that out because sometimes

912
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: it's not like any one person sat you down and

913
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: said you're.

914
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: Not going to go anywhere, You're not going to be anybody.

915
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: It's never that easy to pinpoint that was the person.

916
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,919
Speaker 1: So often it's like us being conditioned and then us

917
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: wielding that abuse toward ourselves, and like the verbal abuse

918
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: the you know, holding yourself back and how to unlearn that.

919
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, add to.

920
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: That community, your therapist, your career coach, your mentors, whatever

921
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: you need. I feel like we're never that self doubt,

922
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 1: that kind of nefarious, noxious gas of self doubt that

923
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: we just kind of I don't know, I personally feel

924
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: like I have a cloud. I'm always trying to keep

925
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: it at bay, and I just kind of made peace

926
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: that it's not going to go away. It's just I

927
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: have to, you know, call it what it is and

928
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: reck it and then just like shoe it away to

929
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: get through the next thing. And I want that, And

930
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: especially if you're ambitious like we are, You're just it's

931
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: just the things are only going to get more challenging.

932
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: That's what we want, right, More challenging, more scary, more

933
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: opportunity for doubt to creep in. And it's like, how

934
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: do we unlearn all of that?

935
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 3: How do we channel it? Right? I think there's unlearned

936
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 3: and then there's also how do you challenge it and

937
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 3: challenge it and channel it? You know? Because the other

938
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 3: thing for me, and this is a little more cultural,

939
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: but growing up outside the United States, the one thing

940
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: people will say in common in general about Americans outside

941
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 3: of America is people will talk about this amazing confidence

942
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 3: that Americans have or the American culture, which we know,

943
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 3: like white American culture, like there's a you know what

944
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 3: is culture, but there's a there's this perception that to

945
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: make it here, you got to be really got to

946
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 3: scream from the rooftops, You've got to be really comfortable

947
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 3: self promoting, You've got to show up a very certain way,

948
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 3: which largely is, you know, essentially like a typical white guy. Right, Like,

949
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: I know what I'm doing, and I have all the answers,

950
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: and I actually think, why not as we think about

951
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 3: building a better workplace and getting more women of color

952
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 3: into senior leadership positions, why not create more leadership styles.

953
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 3: Why not say it's completely okay to be you can

954
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 3: totally be a leader and be more quiet and more

955
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 3: thoughtful and more introverted. I'm extremely uncomfortable with self promotion

956
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 3: this last week, and you know, the weeks leading up

957
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: to this book and then some of the things I

958
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 3: have coming down the pike for me are very difficult,

959
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 3: they really, and it's the self doubt is less like

960
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 3: I'm not good enough or I'm i don't feel confident

961
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 3: in my abilities. I do, but this is just not

962
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 3: the way that I feel comfortable sharing this. I'm a writer,

963
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 3: so where I feel comfortable with sitting down and writing

964
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 3: the thing, and then that's it. I don't want to,

965
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to get up and talk

966
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: about how wonderful I am. But it's not because I

967
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: don't think I'm wonderful. It's because this isn't my medium,

968
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 3: this isn't the way that I do it, and so

969
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 3: why not as we reimagine workplaces for women of color

970
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 3: and leadership for women of color, I would love to

971
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: have different styles. I would love for it to be

972
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 3: completely acceptable for someone to be like, you know, I

973
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 3: don't want to self promote, and I'm not going to

974
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: do it this way. And then for someone who feels

975
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 3: very comfortable self promoting, they do it that way and

976
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: that's totally fine and acceptable too. And then it's less

977
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 3: about am I confident or not? What do I do

978
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,959
Speaker 3: to get rid of my self doubt all of those,

979
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 3: and it's more about how do I channel this in

980
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: a healthy way to do the things and make my

981
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,280
Speaker 3: dreams come true?

982
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll just add to that as leaders, recognizing

983
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: the varied personalities on your team and what various individuals

984
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: may need to be their best. That was the emotional,

985
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: invisible labor of being a manager that I don't think

986
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: is taught, is recognizing how many different people need different

987
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: styles and I had to force myself to learn how

988
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: to help them thrive and everyone is a little bit different.

989
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: And it was when I realized how much work that was,

990
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, wonder they don't do this

991
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: because it's a lot of extra work on me thinking

992
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: of different ways to communicate and how to host this

993
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: and how to make you know it was worthy work.

994
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would challenge that to managers to recognize

995
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: that just because someone in a meeting or someone's personality

996
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: is a different style, that they may need something else,

997
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: something more, something less than what other people have in

998
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: order to get the best out of them, and that

999
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: we should be supported, you know, in our work environments

1000
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: to kind of succeed in our in our own styles.

1001
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: Like just like you were saying, Rashika told she and

1002
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: I could talk to you all.

1003
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 3: Day, we can talk.

1004
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: I've really I've loved this conversation so much. Thank you

1005
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: so much for joining Brann and Bish, I wish we

1006
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: had more time, but I know you have probably way

1007
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: bigger fish and media to fry, and maybe just a good,

1008
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: nice nap is also a worthy endeavor at the time.

1009
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 3: The nap is where I'm probably gonna head. I mean, Mandy,

1010
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: I love I love our conversation and I love being

1011
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: in community because at the end of the day, that

1012
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: feeling of being valued, of being seen off not you know,

1013
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: of not being asked immediately, like what are ten things

1014
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 3: we can do immediately now to become more inclusive? Which

1015
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: is which is sometimes or which is a lot of

1016
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 3: the conversation I'm having with more legacy and white red

1017
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: and white run media is really special. Like to be

1018
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 3: able to have this conversation and just say, hey, here's

1019
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 3: how it feels, and this is what you know, this

1020
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 3: is what we go through, and this is how we cope,

1021
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 3: and this is how we celebrate each other, and here's

1022
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: how we feel joy and optimism. I mean, that's what's

1023
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 3: so special about this experience and I really appreciate it.

1024
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for joining Brand Ambish And

1025
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: you guys have to go get a copy of Rachica's

1026
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: book Inclusion on Purpose. It is out now, it's gonna

1027
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: let's give bestseller vibes, okay, best seller Sprinkles of Magic.

1028
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: And if you are someone working in corporate America, buy

1029
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: this book, take it to work with you. Leave a

1030
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: copy on who's ever desk where it may be read

1031
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: and they may need to see it. Invite, I mean, Rachika,

1032
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: where can people find you to get candor to get

1033
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: your amazing insights? I mean to potentially work with you.

1034
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: Go to your website tell us where to go work.

1035
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm very active on Twitter and my handle

1036
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 3: is r Toulsian so r t u l s h

1037
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 3: y a N. If you want to check out my website,

1038
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: it's Inclusion on Purpose dot co so dot co and

1039
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 3: that will lead you directly to my website. It's very

1040
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 3: easy to get in contact with me. And my hope

1041
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 3: is you know, with this book and you know, longer

1042
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 3: conversation for another day. But my hope with this book

1043
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 3: is that more people, more women of color, know that

1044
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 3: they can write books, that their voices are valued and heard.

1045
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 3: You know, who knows how this book will do, but

1046
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 3: I would love to see more women of color become

1047
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 3: best selling authors so that the publishing industry doesn't turn

1048
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: us away and say, you know, I mean, ninety percent

1049
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 3: of books published are written by white authors, and so

1050
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 3: I really hope that we can all co create a

1051
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 3: different future together.

1052
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: Was that message just for me?

1053
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 3: Chide?

1054
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm working on it.

1055
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm good at do it. Do it? And

1056
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: you're speaking anyway I can part with, any way I

1057
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 3: can support, truly, But anything that I can do to

1058
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: support you, I'm here. I'm cheering you on.

1059
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1060
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: You're extraordinary and sorry. I can't wait to talk to

1061
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: you again. I feel like if I keep doing what

1062
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm doing right in life, I'll just find myself in

1063
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: your circle and in your world and it'll all be wonderful.

1064
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing your point of view,

1065
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: sharing your time, sharing your energy with us. Y'all definitely

1066
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: go check out Chika's book again. It's inclusion on Purpose.

1067
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: It is out now.

1068
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: If you will have a link to the book in

1069
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: the show notes so you can pick up your copy

1070
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: and more for your friends and family and coworkers. Ratika

1071
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: all the best.

1072
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you so much, and to you too,