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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: A production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 4: My name is Matt, my name is Noel.

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Speaker 2: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 2: super producer Paul, Mission control deck, and most importantly, are you.

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Speaker 2: You are here that makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 2: want you to know. Fellow conspiracy realist. We are beginning

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Speaker 2: tonight's episode with a disclaimer, and a strong one. Please

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Speaker 2: listen closely. Tonight we are exploring the concept of so

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Speaker 2: called auditory hallucinations, meaning at base, the idea of experiencing

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Speaker 2: sounds that do not provably exist. And you know, Matt,

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of human beings at some point have

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Speaker 2: all felt they heard something with no discernible physical origin.

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Speaker 2: Often when you're like almost falling asleep or you're almost

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Speaker 2: waking up, you know, just a gut check. Has that happened?

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Speaker 2: Have you ever occasionally just had one of those auditory

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Speaker 2: hallucination hiccups?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I think the sleep aspect of it feels right

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Speaker 4: to me. Where you're somewhere between being awake and being asleep,

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Speaker 4: and maybe something from a dream creeps in and almost

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Speaker 4: wakes you up, and then you think you heard it

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Speaker 4: in real life, but it may have just been something

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Speaker 4: that you were experiencing, which is interesting because I guess

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Speaker 4: I don't know the idea of hearing things in a

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Speaker 4: dream is interesting to me. You often hear people describing

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Speaker 4: like I wrote a song in my dreams, but I've

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Speaker 4: always struggled to be able to explain how sound occurs

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Speaker 4: in Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's almost like the exploding head syndrome that

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Speaker 5: we've discussed before, where you think you hear a loud

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Speaker 5: crash or something like late at night or as you're

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Speaker 5: falling asleep. You go and check it out and absolutely

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Speaker 5: nothing has happened, but your mind has created that sound.

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Speaker 5: I get a thing in this house. It's usually like

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Speaker 5: an ice maker. That's yeah, down the way, I get

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Speaker 5: that too. Yes, it will just be a random like

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Speaker 5: sounds like a crash right of just ice hitting down

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Speaker 5: and you just go, oh, what, what the heck was

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Speaker 5: that somebody just opened a door?

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Speaker 4: Well, that ice sound is such a racket, you know,

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Speaker 4: for being such a small sound. It really does seem

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Speaker 4: to take on a much more kind of large scale quality.

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Speaker 2: You know, what is it appropriateception? Your sense of yourself

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Speaker 2: in space also gets a little wonky in that liminal spot,

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Speaker 2: you know. That's why sometimes you might jerk in your

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Speaker 2: sleep because you feel like you're falling or you're moving

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Speaker 2: while your physical body is simply prone. And look, you

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Speaker 2: know again, the vast majority of people have heard something

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Speaker 2: at some point. Oh, I thought I heard a voice.

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Speaker 2: I turned around, No one was there. My life continues, nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: And folks, while you, me and our cohort Matt, Noel

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Speaker 2: and Paul do technically function as voices in your head

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Speaker 2: tonight via an audio podcast. We are not doctors, to

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Speaker 2: be very clear before we explore any of this. If

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Speaker 2: you are experiencing things that bring you distress or discomfort,

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Speaker 2: immediately contact medical professional. Here are the facts. What do

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Speaker 2: we mean when we say hearing voices? This is a

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Speaker 2: kind of auditory hallucination or word of the day paracusia,

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Speaker 2: nice one, right, But this is a genre of these.

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Speaker 2: This is auditory verbal hallucinations. That means not just the sound,

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Speaker 2: not just an ice machine to your point, Matt, but

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Speaker 2: something vocalizing towards you in your head, a signing a thing,

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Speaker 2: and there's some really interesting science spoiler, we're not going

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Speaker 2: to get into it about what it means when you

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Speaker 2: hear it.

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Speaker 4: It just like in mono.

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Speaker 2: Versus in stereo. There's there's a lot of deep water here.

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Speaker 2: But obviously, in the modern world, perhaps unfairly, this is

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Speaker 2: often associated with some sort of sort of deletarious medical condition.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean typically things like psychosis, some form of

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Speaker 4: dementia perhaps, or schizophrenia. You know, I think many times

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Speaker 4: schizophree is obviously sort of a catch all term. Lots

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Speaker 4: of different little subtle, you know, things that can exist

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Speaker 4: under that umbrella. But I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 4: have the understanding of schizophrenia as even going so far

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Speaker 4: as to assign it like some form of multiple personality syndrome,

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Speaker 4: which I think is a bit of a misnomer. But

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Speaker 4: to your point, Ben, about these audio hallucinations, they're not

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Speaker 4: just sounds. They have personalities, and a lot of times

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Speaker 4: those personalities can be aspects or sort of multiplicities of

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Speaker 4: your own personality. You know, insecurities that are calling out

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Speaker 4: to you and you know, chastising you or trying to

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Speaker 4: shame you for certain things that you're insecure about, and

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Speaker 4: there can be positive ones too that try to kind

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Speaker 4: of lift you up, and sometimes those voices compete.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there is it is true that schizophrenia as

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Speaker 2: an umbrella term is. It's been challenging to modern neuroscience

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Speaker 2: to really define this, to understand it, and that challenge

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Speaker 2: remains in the modern day, to be clear. But there

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Speaker 2: are other potential diagnoses that can be related to auditory

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Speaker 2: verbal hallucinations or this specific genre of peracusia, depression, disassociative

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Speaker 2: identity disorder, generalized anxiety PTSD, obsessive compulsive substance induced psychoses.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times people will experience non consensual hallucinations,

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Speaker 2: meaning purpose they did not purposely seek these out. A

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Speaker 2: lot of that information comes from a number of self

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Speaker 2: reported polls found one from twenty fifteen that notes this.

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Speaker 2: And to your earlier point, Noel, there are other possible

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Speaker 2: causes that are purely hardware causes, things like tumors in

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Speaker 2: the right or wrong part of the brain, dementia, epilepsy,

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Speaker 2: and so on. But there is a pickle in this porridge.

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Speaker 2: A great many people, it turns out, who experience what

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Speaker 2: we would call auditory hallucinations, have no discernible mental illness,

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Speaker 2: have no diagnoses regarding that they are simply otherwise normal

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Speaker 2: individuals who seem to at are regular intervals hear voices

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Speaker 2: they cannot scientifically explain. And these are not always bad

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Speaker 2: voices at all, right, They're not all created equally. Over

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Speaker 2: the years on this show, we've mentioned many people, normal

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Speaker 2: people as well as world leaders, who felt that they

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Speaker 2: occasionally heard a voice that guided them towards some better outcome.

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Speaker 2: Winston Churchill always comes to mind to this.

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Speaker 4: Mh or Joan of arc is another good example, or

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Speaker 4: I think even Mahama Gandhi is said to have heard voices.

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Speaker 4: And oftentimes some of these folks are, you know, like

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Speaker 4: especially with Churchill and Gandhi credited as being great orators,

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Speaker 4: you know, or a scene as being you know, really

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Speaker 4: high level thinkers as opposed to being cast off as

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Speaker 4: you know, the mentally ill.

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Speaker 3: But there's also just one other thing to add to

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Speaker 3: the list.

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Speaker 5: There have been we're talking about a hardware issue because

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Speaker 5: they're I think hearing loss. Antonitis can also be associated

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Speaker 5: with greakpoint like almost like the hardware picking up some

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Speaker 5: kind of signal right, or or maybe even it's not

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Speaker 5: something with an actual origin point, you know, physically in

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Speaker 5: the environment, but because of the way the hardware is

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Speaker 5: like attempting to pick up signal almost it like creates

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Speaker 5: music in somebody's head or even vocalizations, which is really

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Speaker 5: fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: It's confusing to me too, because as someone who has

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Speaker 2: lucid dreams when on the few occasions I do sleep,

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Speaker 2: I am one of those people who walks out with

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Speaker 2: like a fully formed idea and says, oh, crap, that's

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Speaker 2: not that's not a thing yet, and have to frantically

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Speaker 2: search to make sure my brain was not just being

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Speaker 2: super unoriginal. But yeah, I have auditory hallucinations.

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Speaker 4: And I think to your point, Matt about tonights and

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Speaker 4: things of that nature, I think that's a really interesting

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Speaker 4: point because I have a really dear friend who does

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Speaker 4: experienced to nitis and is a huge fan of music,

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Speaker 4: which should be a real bummer, right. You know, you

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Speaker 4: basically have this high frequency that never goes away, but

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Speaker 4: this person has essentially trained themselves to tune it out,

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Speaker 4: which is something that people who experience these type of

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Speaker 4: auditory hallucinations also have to do to varying degrees. And

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Speaker 4: we'll get more into the specifics around that a little later.

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Speaker 4: But you know, maybe there's some of them you don't

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Speaker 4: want to tune out because they're helpful, but the real

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Speaker 4: bad ones you got to figure out a way to separate.

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Speaker 4: You know. Okay, some of them may tell you to

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Speaker 4: do bad things and you have to essentially contend with

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Speaker 4: that and decide which ones to listen to and which

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Speaker 4: ones not to.

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Speaker 5: Well, the reason why, sorry, guys, So, the reason why

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Speaker 5: I bring it up is because in that case with tonitis,

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Speaker 5: there is stimulus, but it's self generated, right, And there's

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Speaker 5: and when we're defining what this is, you know, you

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Speaker 5: one perceives a sound within an environment where that sound

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Speaker 5: there is no stimulus for that sound, right, But as

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Speaker 5: we're going to find and as we dig deeper into this,

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Speaker 5: often there is sound being generated. It's just not sound

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Speaker 5: that anybody else in the environment can hear, and it

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Speaker 5: is self created.

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Speaker 2: Very weird, And we should note, folks that if you

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Speaker 2: are hearing this and you have struggled with or encountered

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Speaker 2: things like this, we're not here to dismiss nor to disprove.

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Speaker 2: What we do want to note is that these things

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Speaker 2: which science describes as hallucinations, if you are a person

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Speaker 2: that is considered to hear voices, then that means those

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Speaker 2: hallucinations are not one offs. What they are instead is

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Speaker 2: a recurrent, if not ongoing experience. It happens more than

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Speaker 2: once if you are hearing voices. History is riddled with

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Speaker 2: people who have been affected by these we'll get to

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Speaker 2: the Joan of arcs later in tonight's show, and in

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Speaker 2: some cases, of course, purposely seeking them out. There's a

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Speaker 2: huge cultural context too, how do you understand the world

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Speaker 2: around you or the world inside you in the evenings

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Speaker 2: of your People who heard voices were treated very differently

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Speaker 2: depending on their cultural context. For example, if you're a

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Speaker 2: person like let's say, what's a famous example, there's a

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Speaker 2: sailor back in the past who who just all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden hears a voice and knows that they must

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Speaker 2: return to shore to convey great news from the gods.

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Speaker 2: If you heard something just once, you may interpret it

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Speaker 2: as a side from something supernatural, heavenly or demonic forces.

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Speaker 2: You make a prediction, and then other people, like the

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Speaker 2: oracles of old, they would purposely attempt to trigger a

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Speaker 2: hallucinatory state by doing things like inhaling vapors. You know,

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Speaker 2: they would Basically, I'm not trying to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: dismissive of their experience, but the current guests from history

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Speaker 2: is that they would they would huff stuff. They would

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Speaker 2: huff stuff and that would make them see and hear things,

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Speaker 2: and that worked out for them, and they were lauded,

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Speaker 2: they were sought after. Their advice was important. They had

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Speaker 2: values sociologically. But if you experience this in the wrong

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Speaker 2: cultural context, you're vilified, you're shunned, your outright executed for

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Speaker 2: trafficking and dark magic.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's similar to certain like sweat lodge rituals in

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Speaker 4: Native American cultures, where you know, hyahuasca or certain psychedelic

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Speaker 4: substances are inhaled or consumed under the supervision of some

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Speaker 4: sort of leader, you know, someone occupying like sort of

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Speaker 4: a guide role, and that's done intentionally to experience hallucinations

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Speaker 4: that take you somewhere and teach you something.

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Speaker 2: And for thousands of years this was the case. Your

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Speaker 2: mileage would vary depending upon the culture in which you lived,

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Speaker 2: and as a result, we will never know how many

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Speaker 2: people died over the thousands of years as a result

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Speaker 2: of these cultural contexts. I mean the idea that hallucinations

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Speaker 2: visual or auditory or you know, kinesthetic, the idea that

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Speaker 2: they might have some hardwire, hardware physiological cause it didn't

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Speaker 2: really occur to humanity until way late in the game.

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Speaker 2: We're talking like the Enlightenment in Western Europe in the

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Speaker 2: late seventeen hundreds. Finally some people started saying, maybe we

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Speaker 2: treat these experiences as symptoms of diseases or neurological conditions.

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Speaker 2: And although that is good, now there's an important step

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Speaker 2: for humanity. These treatments were very bad. They were terrible,

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Speaker 2: terrible things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, trepanation, drilling holes in the skull to release demonic forces.

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Speaker 4: That would be probably the most quack kind of version.

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Speaker 4: But then you get into things that are more supported

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Speaker 4: by quote unquote science, like lobotomy is where literal pieces

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Speaker 4: of the brain are removed of very blunt instrument kind

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Speaker 4: of operation that's left many folks absolutely unable to cope

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Speaker 4: with life.

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Speaker 2: Asylums were prisons.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, prisons where there's human experimentation going on. Not that

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Speaker 5: there isn't that going on at prisons, regular old prisons.

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Speaker 2: Right, good point, Matt.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Also, you know, imagine you are the equivalent of a

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Speaker 2: doctor in the late seventeen hundreds, and you say, this

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Speaker 2: person's obviously distressed. Let's always throw them in cold water,

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Speaker 2: and let's not feed them for a week. Surely i'll

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Speaker 2: get them in a good s Oh my good idea.

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Speaker 5: There are a couple of live wires that I noticed

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Speaker 5: last time we were in room seven B. Why don't

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Speaker 5: we take some of those live wires, attach them to

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Speaker 5: their skull on both sides and see what happens.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, give them this spoon to bite down on. It'll

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Speaker 4: be fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, just for science. Also branding the skull

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Speaker 2: with a hot iron, which I don't understand. But there's

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Speaker 2: the other question here. Is it always a bad thing

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Speaker 2: to hear voices? Right? Without integrating anybody's personal experience, there's

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Speaker 2: a tricky question.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: In many cases you could say this is one's own

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Speaker 2: brain conspiring against you. But more and more often people

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Speaker 2: are asking, is hearing voices always a bad thing? We'll

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Speaker 2: tell you after a word from our sponsor. Here's where

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Speaker 2: it gets crazy. Actually, no, not always a bad thing,

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Speaker 2: And that is according to people who actively encounter auditory

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Speaker 2: verbal hallucinations on a regular or even daily basis.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's a pretty cute little animated character by

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Speaker 4: the name of Jimminy Cricket from a Pinocchio who sings

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Speaker 4: always let your conscience be your guide. And I would

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Speaker 4: argue that that's what Jimmy Cricket represents is Pinocchio's conscience,

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Speaker 4: you know, telling him when to not do the bad

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Speaker 4: things and what good things are. And it's you know,

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Speaker 4: our conscience is a little voice inside of us that

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Speaker 4: tells us the difference between right and wrong.

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Speaker 2: Unless we be quick to judge on the idea of oh,

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Speaker 2: these folks are unbalanced there something like that. Before you

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Speaker 2: paint with a broad brush, folks, let's remember there is

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Speaker 2: a very high likelihood that you yourself experience a kind

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Speaker 2: of hallucination at all times, your own internal monologue. For

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of folks, this internal monologue is recognized

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Speaker 2: as an internal voice. This is me doing like a

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Speaker 2: wonder years thing to myself, they say, instead of some

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Speaker 2: external voice. And that's where I want to shout out.

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Speaker 2: This excellent conversation we had years back with our pal

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Speaker 2: Joe McCormick of stuff to blow your mind on the

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Speaker 2: bi camera mind theory.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, excellent episode. Definitely listen to that. Is it a

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Speaker 5: two parter?

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Speaker 4: I think it is, Yeah, not one hundred percent, sure,

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Speaker 4: it feels like it was really good stuff.

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Speaker 5: Uh yeah, So okay, so we're going to get into

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Speaker 5: some of this, guys. But in that episode, one of

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Speaker 5: the things that is discussed, in one of the ways

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Speaker 5: that the by camera mind has been explored over the years,

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Speaker 5: is to question the possibility is it is there any

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Speaker 5: way possible that there is some kind of outside force, right,

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Speaker 5: or is it the brain itself, the two hemispheres of

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Speaker 5: the brain communicating with each other in some way that

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Speaker 5: we can't consciously perceive, or is it possible that well

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Speaker 5: this is so weird, but is it possible that sometime

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Speaker 5: in the past, is there interference in some way, either

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Speaker 5: divine or you know, physical of what metaphysical, I don't

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Speaker 5: know what you call it, Sure, some kind of thing

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Speaker 5: that is either causing the hardware to function, the ears,

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Speaker 5: or you know, the voice, or the brain itself.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think in those days it was maybe

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Speaker 4: people just didn't know people did know what to call it,

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean, like that internal monologue or that conscience,

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Speaker 4: that little voice, you know, telling you what to do

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Speaker 4: again to the good. Often people would assume that it

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Speaker 4: was some external force because they didn't understand this metacognition,

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Speaker 4: which I think is what it all boils down to.

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Speaker 4: You're thinking about thinking, so you're kind of having these

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Speaker 4: little conversations with yourself in your mind. But it's I

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Speaker 4: would argue, I think, and probably scientists would argue for

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Speaker 4: the most part, that it's all you. But it's just

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Speaker 4: different parts of you kind of trying to weigh, you know,

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Speaker 4: what you should or should not do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the call is coming from inside the house. By

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Speaker 2: Cameral mind theory comes from Julian Janes and Julian. The

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Speaker 2: reason it's called by Cameron is because this theory argues

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Speaker 2: that without it argues that the human species until about

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Speaker 2: three thousand years ago, almost said three grand years ago,

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Speaker 2: until about three thousand years ago, your average factory human

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Speaker 2: being did not have self awareness, did not have introspection,

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Speaker 2: and they were hearing messages from one hemisphere of the

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Speaker 2: brain transmitting to another. So instead of your internal monologue saying,

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Speaker 2: oh that that cliff is coming up, I should stop running,

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Speaker 2: you would feel as though there were some ghostly force

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Speaker 2: saying there's a cliff stop.

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Speaker 3: And that's theoretically right. It's because it is right.

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Speaker 2: Very much so. And and a lot of Janes, uh.

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Speaker 2: We talk about this in the in the conversation it's

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Speaker 2: a wild ride, but a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 2: Jane supporting evidence comes from ancient literature and myth, So

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Speaker 2: that can be sticky for people because it's always going

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Speaker 2: to be explored through a modern context anyway. Point is,

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Speaker 2: if you believe Jane's then the idea is that your

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Speaker 2: internal monologue does not exist. There every the voice you

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Speaker 2: hear in your head is a god in the heavens,

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Speaker 2: a demon in the depths, maybe a dead ancestor. And

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Speaker 2: what what I find fascinating about this is that there

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Speaker 2: is a not insignificant amount of human beings today who

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Speaker 2: say that they have no internal monologue. They don't hear

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Speaker 2: their voice thinking. And that's that's a very difficult thing,

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Speaker 2: I believe for a lot of people to rock.

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Speaker 4: I think it's difficult to quantify though, right because like

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Speaker 4: we you know, we understand what sound sounds like, and

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Speaker 4: I think when I'm thinking about words or I'm thinking

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Speaker 4: about sounds, I'm not hearing it exactly. It's sort of

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Speaker 4: a vague approximation. It's like remembering what things sound like

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Speaker 4: instead of actually hearing a sound, right, hmm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's difficult because then it would it would

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Speaker 2: be like asking people who cannot mentally visualize things to

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Speaker 2: draw a picture of their experience. You know, it's to color,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, just so, and so there's this

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Speaker 2: weird bag of badgers. The science is all over the

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Speaker 2: place right now. The prevalence of auditory hallucinations and the

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Speaker 2: general human population is thought to range somewhere from five

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Speaker 2: to twenty eight percent. That's a hell of a march.

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Speaker 4: That's a range. Yeah, And I think I heard something

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Speaker 4: in some of the research that I was doing on

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Speaker 4: the side here that I think only around two percent

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Speaker 4: of people like get treatment for it. Sure it was

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Speaker 4: something even lower than this, because again, this is a range,

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Speaker 4: it's like a spectrum. Right, So maybe that twenty eight

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Speaker 4: percent would be more of a traditional internal monologue, right,

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Speaker 4: and then like the smaller numbers would be genuine auditory

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Speaker 4: hallucinations where people are hearing conflicting voices that they're having

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Speaker 4: to contend with.

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Speaker 2: It's difficult because to measure this. We'll get into it.

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Speaker 2: But it comes from what we're seeing as one symptom

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Speaker 2: or occurrence. I don't even want to call it a

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Speaker 2: symptom that can come from or originate from a wide

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Speaker 2: variety of situations. We know that there's a stigma associated

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Speaker 2: with this, a stigma that some of our fellow conspiracy

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Speaker 2: realists this evening may have encountered firsthand. And it's simply this.

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Speaker 2: The reports of auditory verbal hallucinations are most prevalent in

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Speaker 2: patients diagnosed with some sort of psychosis. However, it is

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Speaker 2: by no means limited to people with those conditions. The

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Speaker 2: science continues, I mean, thankfully this objective study of it

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Speaker 2: became more accepted in the modern world. In the late

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties and nineties, there was a crazy thing that happened.

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Speaker 2: Reality television actually helped a little.

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Speaker 4: Bit with this.

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Speaker 2: There were these Dutch researchers in the nineteen nineties that

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Speaker 2: ran Approach on Dutch TV. It was probably the most

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Speaker 2: exciting thing that ran on TV that year, because if

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Speaker 2: you've ever seen Dutch television outside the news, it's not great.

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Speaker 2: So beside, this ran a program on TV and they said, look,

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Speaker 2: if you have heard voices, we're watching this program. If

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Speaker 2: you've heard voices. Contact us, call us, tell us what

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Speaker 2: your experience is like. And a lot of the people

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Speaker 2: who contacted them said, you know, yeah, I hear voices,

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Speaker 2: but they're not disruptive and your point, Noel, They said,

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Speaker 2: I never felt a need to consult medical or mental

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Speaker 2: health services. Again, a small but vocal group proportion of

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Speaker 2: the group said, wi fi, these experiences to be positive,

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Speaker 2: to be inspirational, they add value and quality to my life.

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Speaker 2: This is not what the researchers were expecting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, probably not.

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Speaker 5: Uh yeah, you would almost always expect to a negative thing.

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Speaker 5: And maybe that it's because of the way hearing voices

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Speaker 5: is portrayed often in popular media and the way it's

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Speaker 5: spoken about so closely associated with mental illness, probably for

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Speaker 5: a lot of people going through medical school. So there's

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Speaker 5: a stigma to it that goes far beyond popular media.

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Speaker 5: It's within the textbooks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and people are still there's sort of rowing against

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Speaker 2: the tide here because fiction is always the court of

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Speaker 2: public opinion, right, so there's no shortage already in the

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Speaker 2: nineties of copaganda basically saying if you hear a voice,

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Speaker 2: you are crazy. That voice is telling you to do

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Speaker 2: bad things, but that doesn't seem to be the case

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Speaker 2: for a lot of humans. So let's go to a

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Speaker 2: psychologist at the University of Manchester, Eilsh Campbell. They were

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Speaker 2: very interested in this study, this Dutch TV study, and

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Speaker 2: so she and her colleagues said, all right, why does

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Speaker 2: the experience of hearing voices, why does it vary? It's

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Speaker 2: sort of like Senastasia. You know, No, two versions of

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Speaker 2: Senastasia are really alike. And although there is a genetic component,

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Speaker 2: writers like Nabokov were very upset when they learned that

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Speaker 2: their children had senesasia, but at completely different associations with

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Speaker 2: letters and colors and stuff. And so Campbell says, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you might have a childhood trauma. You might have, for

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Speaker 2: one reason or another, some kind of PTSD, some inherent

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Speaker 2: suspicion about other people being untrustworthy or dangerous. You might

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Speaker 2: have insecurities or vulnerabilities that cause you to interpret voices

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Speaker 2: you hear however they arrive. You may interpret those as

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Speaker 2: negative things. But if you have a positive outlook, if

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Speaker 2: you have an overall positive life experience, then the voices

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Speaker 2: you hear may be a lot more like at a boy,

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Speaker 2: great work, nice one, Carol malmacchiato.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you reward yourself, right, give.

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Speaker 4: Me a pat on the back. We should give ourselves

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Speaker 4: a pat on the back. And we were talking about

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Speaker 4: that kind of early at the top of the episode,

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Speaker 4: the idea of there being competing voices, some good, perhaps

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Speaker 4: some bad, some neutral. You know. I've even heard people

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Speaker 4: in you know who are part of this community, which

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Speaker 4: you're going to get to. It really is becoming more

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Speaker 4: of a community, talking about how when they meet somebody new,

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Speaker 4: that person could then become a voice in their head,

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Speaker 4: like if they're being interviewed, for example, they might be

434
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: hearing a version of that person's voice in their head

435
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 4: kind of giving them a hard time or saying that

436
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 4: your answers are stupid, you're doing a bad job at

437
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 4: this interview. It was actually specifically in a piece that

438
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 4: I saw from NBC News hearing voices other can't how

439
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: a growing movement fights mental health, and one of the

440
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: Genie Bass, who is the kind of main subject of

441
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 4: the piece, literally said to the person interviewing her, I'm

442
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: hearing your voice now in my head as I'm watching

443
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 4: you talk to me. And the person asked, how do

444
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 4: you differentiate between my voice and the version of me

445
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 4: that's in your head. And Genie said, I'm watching your

446
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 4: mouth move so that I know when your mouth's not moving,

447
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 4: that's the version in my head. And then the person

448
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 4: interviewer also asked how long that my voice might stick around.

449
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 4: She said it might be forever, or it might just

450
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: be Typically, it's like a couple of weeks.

451
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: Right, with a fade off, a window of time. And

452
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: the point is this idea of positive versus negative experiences,

453
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: and we're using that in the non scientific means. We're

454
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: saying feeling good versus feeling bad. It strikes me as

455
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: being similar to ingesting hallucinogens. Seen and setting may play

456
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: a role. So let's say you have a pre existing

457
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: set of religious beliefs, you may find that the voice

458
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: visiting you, like the voices Joan of Arc allegedly heard,

459
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: are helpful rather than a hindrance. The voices in your

460
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: head are in short, not created equally. And this is

461
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: something that was very interesting to a Stanford University anthropologist

462
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: named Tanya Lherman, and doctor Lhrman has done some amazing work.

463
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: What she found was the culture plays such a key.

464
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: You can see her, you can hear her rather in MPR.

465
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: You can read about her in Atlantic. You can read

466
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: her studies online. She went around the world and found

467
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: people who were diagnosed with schizophrenia in three very different cultures,

468
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: the United States, the capital of Ghana, and part of India.

469
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: And she had these She had some pretty salient observations

470
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: that I think are worth highlighting tonight.

471
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can probably kind of figure where this is going,

472
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: but I mean, you summed it up beautifully already. Been

473
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: just the idea that your cultural background and the way

474
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: you view certain forces, external forces, like you mentioned earlier,

475
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: the idea that back in the day folks might have

476
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: thought it was always the voice of a god. While

477
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: the question is which god and what do they represent?

478
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 4: And what lens cultural lens are you filtering these voices

479
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 4: that you're hearing through? And Leerman I had this to say.

480
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: The Americans I spoke to felt assaulted by horrible voices

481
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: that told them they were worthless and they should die.

482
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: Those voices were full of violence. And Ghana, the Africans

483
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 4: heard an audible God who told them not to ignore

484
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 4: those evil voices. And in Chennai, which is the part

485
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: of India you've mentioned, Ben people heard annoying relatives who

486
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 4: told them to douce chores and clean up.

487
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: To me, that last part is so weirdly wholesome. Yeah,

488
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: it is like, don't think just because I've passed on

489
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: to the afterlife that you get out of laundry, you know.

490
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: And she continues and points to this idea of individualism

491
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: versus collectivism in society. She says, so, I think Americans

492
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 2: think of their minds as a private fortress, and they

493
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: have this model that when you hear an audible voice,

494
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: it means your mind, your sanctum senatorum. Is it sanctum sanatorum,

495
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: doctor Strange, I don't know that one well enough to

496
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: know well well, your sacred space, your mind is somehow

497
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: being broken or invaded. And then Lherman says, I think

498
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: they're different social invitations in Chennai and in Akra, capital

499
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: of Ghana where this occurs. Says, I think there's much

500
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: more of an invitation to think about things supernatural, to

501
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: think about the religious world. To interpret these experiences as

502
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: the voice of a spirit.

503
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: Or you're annoying relatives or yes.

504
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: Who are now spirits and are still so mad about

505
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: the laundry.

506
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 4: Well, you know, we talked a little bit about Joan

507
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 4: of Arc and a lot of the folks that I

508
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 4: think we've we've been reading about, you know, who are

509
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 4: talking about their experiences with these types of auditory hallucinations.

510
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: There's often a voice telling people they are some sort

511
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: of messenger from God. That's a commonly reported thing, like

512
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 4: really common, and probably more common in folks who are

513
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: devoutly religious or have had some religious upbringing. To again,

514
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: interpret it through that lens. Obviously, Joan of Arc went

515
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 4: all in on that interpretation. The person I was referencing

516
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: from the NBC piece mentioned something similar and said that

517
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 4: for a time she thought she was the living embodiment

518
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 4: of Mary Magdalene, but then came to realize that, you know,

519
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: think about it differently, but still appreciated it and felt

520
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 4: spiritually connected to Mary Magdalen. There's a really disturbing but

521
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 4: excellent a twenty four horror film called Saint Maud about

522
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 4: a young woman who has these types of voices, and

523
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 4: the whole play of the film is is it real

524
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 4: or is it in her head? And what ultimately comes

525
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: down to is it doesn't really matter. It's real to them,

526
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: and it's all about how you behave with that information.

527
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: It's lived experience.

528
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 5: Do you guys remember speaking with David Ike and just

529
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 5: how he seems to be fully convinced that he had

530
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 5: that exact experience where he was given a message and

531
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 5: a goal and all this other stuff from like directly

532
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 5: from a higher power, and then changed his entire life

533
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 5: and went on that path. I thought that was really

534
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 5: interesting to hear that, you know, hear someone explaining it

535
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 5: to you directly, like this is what happened to me.

536
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: Agreed, Yeah, it's funny because this is probably a conversation

537
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: for off air right now. But as a teaser we

538
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: are going to explore in an upcoming episode coming to

539
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: an evening near you, we are going to explore the

540
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: idea of divine intervention. And as you guys know, Matt

541
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: nol way back in the day, my biological father was

542
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: convinced he had discovered his own religion, and it came

543
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: about with the idea of these of these visions, of

544
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: these you know, these divine interventions, these statements from supernatural,

545
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: scientifically unprovable powers, and it all hinges on a very

546
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: very and be diplomatic interesting Now, it's not one of

547
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: those interesting interpretation of the mechanics of reincarnation. And it's

548
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: a cool ride. It's a cool ride. But in this case,

549
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: with this cultural context, what Luhrmann found is that it

550
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: seems societies that are a little more openly collectivist, a

551
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 2: little more get by with a little help from your friends.

552
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: The folks in those places, even when diagnosed with schizophrenia,

553
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: they have a higher rate when it comes to encountering

554
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: voices in their heads that do not aggressive, frightening, or evil.

555
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: And I think that's such a profound statement.

556
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: I do jap into something they feel right, Yeah, it's

557
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 4: collective unconscious of some kind.

558
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know the the other ideas about delusions

559
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 2: of grandeur and megalomania, those are real. But let's let's

560
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: leave them for a moment, because I think we need

561
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: to get to a lot of caveats. Do you guys

562
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: want to take a break or do you want to

563
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 2: Shall we power through?

564
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 4: I just wanted to add one little thing, if I might,

565
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 4: just we're talking about some examples of these things in

566
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 4: your birth father's example and Joan of Arc and all

567
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 4: of that. Philip K. Dick, the science fiction writer, has

568
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: a whole book. It's called Vallis where it's sort of

569
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 4: like autobiographical to a degree, and he believes fully that

570
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 4: he received divine information that was shot into his brain

571
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 4: by a pink space laser that imbued him with the

572
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 4: knowledge that his son had some sort of test cancer. Uh,

573
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 4: and he felt as though he was given that information

574
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 4: and then did something about it. And also I think

575
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: there's one part of a story where he says it

576
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 4: taught him how to speak Greek and things like that.

577
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 4: So I mean there are actionable examples of people getting

578
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: this stuff and feeling much more like wow, maybe that

579
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 4: was an external force. I just think it's all very fascinating.

580
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 2: And we are going to encounter some caveats some current

581
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: science about these cognitive conspiracies. Yes, I'm paid by the

582
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: alliteration on that one. We'll be back after a co

583
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: sign from our co conspiracy kidding there, it's an outbreak.

584
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 2: We have returned. Caveat, caveat, caveat. While cultural context is key,

585
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 2: while it is important science, we cannot forget the hard,

586
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: continuing science of neurology as well. You know, we talked

587
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: about this before. In recent years, there's been a lot

588
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: of interest in determining something you alluded to earlier, Matt,

589
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: whether people with schizophrenia in particular are experiencing subvocal speech

590
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: in short, and this happens in sci fi all the time.

591
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 2: In short, when we're hearing these voices, are our speech

592
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: muscles engaging in normally imperceptible ways.

593
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 4: When you say speech muscles, do you mean literally the

594
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 4: muscles that we use to move our mouths to form sounds,

595
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: or we're talking about more brain patterns and things that

596
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: are engaging in language centers of the brain firing.

597
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 5: Basically, the question is what is there a physical thing

598
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 5: that is occurring in the body, whether it's your larynx,

599
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 5: your vocal cords, or just signals right right, yeah, even

600
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 5: your the tiny bones within your ears, Like, is there

601
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 5: vibration occurring in there so that you're because that's how

602
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 5: you hear everything, right, Is there something going on in there?

603
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 4: It's really interesting. I'm sure that we've got an answer.

604
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: I would just back to my point earlier about at

605
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 4: least my experience. I don't feel like I hear sound

606
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 4: when I think about it. It's like a memory. It's

607
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 4: more of an approximation. It's not like I'm actually can

608
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 4: play a symphony in my mind with every multi polyphonic

609
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 4: sound fidelity. Maybe there are some people that can, but

610
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: to me it just feels experientially different than actually hearing something.

611
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: Well, somebody did this, Ben.

612
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 5: You found a study from Lewis Gould, and this is

613
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 5: the most fascinating thing I think that I read for

614
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 5: this episode.

615
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: Ben.

616
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 5: This study on what you just mentioned, their subvocal speech,

617
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 5: the possibility or the hypothesis that perhaps there's actual movement

618
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 5: within those vocal chords, air being pushed through even when

619
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 5: the person the subject doesn't believe they're pushing air through

620
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 5: and making sounds, but it could actually be happening.

621
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 3: Just tell us about this is crazy.

622
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

623
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: Second word of the evening electro myography electromigraphy EMG as

624
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: the street name, and it's exactly as you described that

625
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: the muscles around the trachea you're you know, your neck

626
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: junk is moving when you are thinking. So Gould gathers

627
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: a group of people diagnosed with schizophrenium and a group

628
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 2: of patients who do not have a schizophrenia diagnosis, records

629
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: their muscle, their vocal muscle activity low and behold when

630
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: he looks at the EMG recordings of schizophrenic patients as

631
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: the experience hallucination as they hear voices, and we'll learn

632
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: hallucination is kind of a sticky term to some people.

633
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: He found that when these patients were hearing voices, their

634
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: EMG recordings showed their vocal muscles were activating. This means

635
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: that when people again diagnosed with schizoph are hearing voices

636
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: in their heads, their vocal muscles are contracting, they're engaging

637
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: in subvocal speech, even if they are not aware of it.

638
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: It's very important scientific clue. But also if you're in

639
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: a cultural context that says there may be possession, then

640
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: this means you're just possessed.

641
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 4: Well, and just just to clarify too, like they're not

642
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: they're not opening their mouths. This stuff is happening without

643
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: them opening their mouths and actually make It's almost like

644
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 4: it sounds to me like throwing your voice inside your

645
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 4: own head.

646
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, but like

647
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: on a micro scale, yeah, assassinating.

648
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 4: So these are like really subtle movements, right, These are

649
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 4: very It's just it's almost like the intimation of those

650
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 4: muscles wanting to do their thing because the brain thinks

651
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 4: it's actually speaking.

652
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 5: Well, Wow, According to the Slate article that you linked

653
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 5: to Ben titled when people with schizophrenia her voices, They're

654
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 5: really hearing their own subvocal speech. It's from March second,

655
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen. In there, they actually went further and not

656
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 5: just tested, you know, whether or not those muscles were moving.

657
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 5: They placed a microphone up to the place where the

658
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 5: spot where Adam's apple is if you've got one, or

659
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 5: just you know, right behind that area of your throat,

660
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 5: and they were able to actually pick up whispers essentially,

661
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 5: like the tiniest, like I was saying, air moving through

662
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 5: those vocal cords. When they enhanced it enough to where

663
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 5: the person experiencing hallucinations was making audible sound, just nobody

664
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 5: else could hear it, and it was almost like minor

665
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 5: vibrations in their own head.

666
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: It's literally a subtle flex. Is it not.

667
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: Really fascinating?

668
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 3: It takes you again.

669
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 5: This is where you made a kind of aside there

670
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 5: about what was it been someone? Is it something else

671
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 5: possessing the vocal cords? Is it the person doing it?

672
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 5: Because you know, in the patients who were going who

673
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 5: were being tested for these things, the patients hear that

674
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 5: their own vocal cords moving in a way that they

675
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 5: believe it is something else, someone else speaking to them, right,

676
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 5: But it is in fact physically them making informing those things.

677
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 5: The weird question is and that if you want to

678
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 5: take it further and get even more metaphysical, it's is

679
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 5: it something speaking through the vocal records, like when we

680
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 5: think about culture geyst or different types of ghosts being

681
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 5: able to inhabit with energy other things?

682
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: Right, I don't.

683
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: I just watched Talk to Me I'm all about That

684
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: was so good.

685
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 4: It was so good. I really loved it. Yeah, yeah, Well, these.

686
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: Are things that are going to come up in our

687
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 2: Divine Intervention episode as well. In the meantime, please check

688
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: out our episodes on possession and the cultural context in

689
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: which that perhaps supernatural conspiracy occurs. There's there's something else

690
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: too that I think is important to remember. This is

691
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: not at all when when scientists are looking at this,

692
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: they're not at all trying to devalue nor dismiss the

693
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: lived experience of other people. And if you want to

694
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: play along at home, fellow conspiracy realist, if you want

695
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: to practice subvocalization, then all you have to do I

696
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: think three syllables will fix it. All you have to

697
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: do is take a three to four syllable word, like

698
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: let's say, uh, bonder room. So think of the word

699
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 2: bonder room and don't open your mouth, don't exhale breath.

700
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: But flex is though you're saying it aloud to yourself

701
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: without engaging you know, your wind bag, parts of your body.

702
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: And then that that flex you feel in your throat.

703
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: That's what's being measured in subvocalization, just on a much

704
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 2: smaller level. The science is there, But wouldn't it like, I.

705
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 4: Mean, I think I would. I'm understanding this like that

706
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: it is the brain sort of really treating this, believing

707
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 4: that this is a physical process. But it's not like

708
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 4: it's an enough movement for it to create the kind

709
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 4: of sound you might if you're doing a voice in

710
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 4: your head without opening your mouth or like mmmm humming

711
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 4: or something like. It wouldn't be enough to register vibrationally,

712
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: Like I understand that there's a parallel here, and then

713
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 4: it sort of represents the fact that these things are

714
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: thought of no pun intended, or I guess not really

715
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 4: a pun, but by the brain as real speech. But

716
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 4: you're not hearing sound, you're not doing impressions in your

717
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 4: head with your voice. It's just sort of like there's

718
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 4: a parallel there, there's a connection.

719
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: I would say, without waxing too philosophic, I guess my

720
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: response would be that we talk a lot about culture

721
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: as a result of other human interaction, but we have

722
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: to realize that every individual human mind, any higher order mind,

723
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: honestly is a culture all its own. So you may not,

724
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: you know, your your brain is a lot like a

725
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: big house or a space shuttle. You live in a

726
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 2: very small part of it, the you that you think

727
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: of as you, and you don't know what happens in

728
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: the other stairwells, in the other rooms. So not to

729
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: say that everyone's a haunted house, but everyone's a haunted house.

730
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 2: And there's this thing. We got to get to, this

731
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: full disclosure at bias here. This personally means a lot

732
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: to me, and it's quite controversial. You alluded to it

733
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: a bit earlier. Right now, in the meantime, while the

734
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: science is ongoing, while it is important to figure out

735
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: these possible internal conspiracies, there are organizations that are seeking to,

736
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: if not normalize, humanize this experience. I think they're doing

737
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: very important work by far the most prominent is the

738
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: Hearing Voices Movement HVM, which started in nineteen eighty seven,

739
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: and the organizations affiliated with this, the event individuals a

740
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: film with this, are saying, let's find a more holistic,

741
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 2: alternative way of understand the experience of people who hear voices.

742
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 2: We don't want to call them hallucinations, and we definitely

743
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: don't want to paint with a broad brush and call

744
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: all of these people crazy, because they're normal people. You know,

745
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: why don't we treat this experience if you're not hurting anyone,

746
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: Why don't we treat this experience as maybe having tonight

747
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: to Matt's point, or having freckles, you know, like, why

748
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 2: do we have to other people who? In fact, what's

749
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 2: quite inspiring, I would argue is that the HVM folks,

750
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: the Hearing Voices movement, they see this holistic approach as

751
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: a matter of human rights, and they say, you can

752
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: live a full, healthy life with quote unquote voices in

753
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 2: your head, and you shouldn't be treated as unusual, nor dangerous,

754
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: nor someone who is you know, off their rocker or

755
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: out there squash about it, out there squash, I love

756
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: American English. We just made that up, but I think

757
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: it works.

758
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 4: I love it. But I think you came across this

759
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 4: one as well. But there's a really good ted X

760
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 4: talk out of Australia Hearing Voices, An Insider's Guide to

761
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 4: auditory Hallucinations from a woman named Deborah Lampshire who has

762
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 4: lived most of her adult life with these these voices.

763
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: And really, I mean it's not she doesn't go into

764
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 4: the science. That's not what it's about. It's an experiential

765
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 4: discussion about how it has affected her life and it's

766
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 4: really fascinating. It's only like I think it's like ten, ten,

767
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 4: twelve minutes something like that, but it's absolutely worth it

768
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 4: if you want to hear someone's perspective. She talks about

769
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: a lot of this stuff, the other inqualities of it,

770
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 4: the you know, being able to live a full life,

771
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 4: makes a lot of references to great people figures throughout history.

772
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 4: But one thing that she said that I thought was

773
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 4: interesting in terms of the negative voices, she ended the

774
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 4: talk by using this term or describing herself as having

775
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: a mutinous mind, which I thought was really just kind

776
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 4: of poetic and really just hit the nail on the

777
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 4: head for the negative self talk. Kind of versions of

778
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 4: these voices. But we also know people that have depression

779
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 4: experience cyclical negative self talk that maybe doesn't quite push

780
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 4: into the realm of hearing voices per se. So there

781
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 4: is a connection and a continuity with all of these things,

782
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 4: Ben that you listed at the top of the show,

783
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 4: these kind of conditions that are now starting to be

784
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 4: treated with more nuance. But back in the day, we're

785
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 4: maybe painted with a much broader brush.

786
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can starve people into being happy, or you know,

787
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: just stick a stick an ice pick through their eye. Yeah,

788
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: you've come a long white humanity, right, go team the

789
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: thing about the Hearing Voices movement, and you're absolutely right, Noel.

790
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: That is a great TED talk. You can see another

791
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 2: TET talk by Eleanor Langen. I want to say in general,

792
00:47:55,239 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: these movements prize what we'll call holistic health solutions. However,

793
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: to be absolutely fair, they have received a lot of

794
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: criticism from other aspects of science. But despite the ongoing

795
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: debate which continues as we record this evening, the intentions

796
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: of the Hearing Voices movement do seem good. They are

797
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: good faith actors. Plus it might change the conversation a

798
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: little bit if we realize that as of twenty seventeen,

799
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: science has proven that you can teach people to hallucinate

800
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: and they will not be able to tell the difference.

801
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: Their lived experience will become that of someone hearing voices.

802
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, I don't know about this. That's fascinating. You're

803
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 4: talking about the thing we reference here the paper from

804
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 4: journal Science Phil Corlitt and al. Powers from Yale. Yeah.

805
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 4: I'd love to hear more about this. This is not

806
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: something that got a chance to dig into yet.

807
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 5: Well, well, craignth im wrong here. Basically, the study is

808
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 5: saying most people walk around in the world and they

809
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 5: just kind of use their senses and they interpret what

810
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 5: they see.

811
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 3: They take it in Oh hey.

812
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 5: There's some I forget the term for a high some

813
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 5: high density sound absorbing sponge or whether looking at it, I

814
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 5: see it. It's the color for me, and my perception

815
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 5: is gray. It looks as though it's squishy. I think

816
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 5: I understand what that is. But then people who tend

817
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 5: to hallucinate, or or do hallucinate on a regular basis,

818
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 5: interact with the world rather than just taking what their

819
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 5: senses are giving them right as fact, they often will

820
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 5: perceive the world as what they almost anticipate confirmation bias.

821
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 3: There you go.

822
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's funny too, because we all operate this way.

823
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter who you are. You know, you hear

824
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: a you hear a really barnstorming fart on a crowded elevator,

825
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 2: you clock it, and then you anticipate, you anticipate there

826
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: will be a spell and some social awkwardness unless somewhat

827
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: is particularly all gas, no breaks, and they're like, that

828
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: was me, you know, have a good ride to the

829
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: fourteenth floor well, which is actually the third Whatever got.

830
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 5: Them, get them every time, every one of those architects.

831
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 5: It makes a lot of sense to me, or this

832
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 5: connection right here specifically why post traumatic stress can be

833
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 5: a reason someone experiences auditory hallucinations because you are anticipating

834
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 5: something possibly negative.

835
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 4: To creming the bad thing right, Yeah, I'm.

836
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 5: Gonna I'm not gonna be surprised again by whatever this

837
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 5: thing is or a similar situation.

838
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 3: I'm gonna know that it's hell, it's coming.

839
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 4: Yeah.

840
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: Auditory hallucinations occurred and estimated forty percent of individuals diagnosed

841
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 2: with post traumatic stress disorder PTSD. And it's it's such

842
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: a real thing, even like I think we're doing a

843
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: good job exercising empathy and saying don't dismiss these experiences.

844
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: If someone is telling you that they are hearing something,

845
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 2: they're not being a crackpot. They are a rational actor.

846
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: They are encountering sensory stimulus from somewhere, you know. And this,

847
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: this study, I think is a real equalizer for humanity

848
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: because these folks that you mentioned their nol phil Corla

849
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: and OWL powers. They start by conditioning these subjects to

850
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: hear a tone. Just imagine a tone in your head

851
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: if you hear sound in your head every time they

852
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: see a checkerboard pattern, pretty simple. And then what they

853
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: slowly do over time, somewhat insidiously, is they remove the

854
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: actual sound, but they keep the visual stimulus. So they

855
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: start asking people, do you hear the sound when you

856
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: see the checkerboard? And participants who already regularly heard voices

857
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: were five times more likely to say they heard the

858
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: tone when none was played, and they were overall they

859
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 2: were like thirty percent more confident in their choice, like, yes,

860
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 2: I definitely heard this, but they found something else fascinating.

861
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: Over the course of the experiment, all of the participants,

862
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 2: every single one experienced hearing a tone that was not

863
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: there because they have been conditioned to hear it.

864
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 4: See, I'm struggling with this and I think it's been

865
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 4: clear and what I've been saying, like I'm having a

866
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 4: hard time, Like I'm trying to think of a sound

867
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 4: or a tone or words, and I just don't know

868
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 4: if I'm doing it right quote unquote, like I'm trying to.

869
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 2: Picture if you're remembering it, Yeah, exactly right.

870
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 4: But I'm also thinking, like if I did something like

871
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 4: this where I tried to like hear the tone, then

872
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 4: think about the tone, and then play the tone on time,

873
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 4: Like could I continue that on in my mind when

874
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 4: the tone was muted? And I'm thinking kind of yes,

875
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 4: Like that's starting to get my head to wrap around

876
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 4: this idea of what a internal sound is. You know,

877
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 4: it's really cool obviously, you know, Like I mean, I'm

878
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 4: just a giant sound nerd. It's like passion and it's

879
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 4: something that I just have been a part of my

880
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 4: life since I was very little, and I just it's

881
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 4: this is a really real noodle scratcher. I love this one.

882
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 5: This isn't exactly the same thing, but guys, do you

883
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 5: ever encounter some kind of mechanical like hum or were

884
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 5: let's see, uh, let's say it's a washing machine or

885
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 5: you know, dry dishwasher, a fan, just something that has

886
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 5: a constant like kind of sound.

887
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 3: Do you guys ever build that into a word?

888
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 4: Yeah?

889
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: Or yeah, okay, of course you guys do that too, absolutely.

890
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

891
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people come up with song

892
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 4: ideas that way from processing little things they hear and

893
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 4: they're now surroundings, you know, or things that are rapid repetitive,

894
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 4: and then they start to assign rhythm to that. I

895
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 4: can't remember what it was. It was like sting or

896
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 4: it was somebody talking about the difference between a musical

897
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 4: mind and like a non musical mind, and he was like,

898
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 4: if you hear a looping, cyclical sound like that, do

899
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 4: you immediately start building it into a beat? Or to

900
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 4: you is it just background noise? Well, if it's background noise,

901
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 4: you're not a songwriter, you know what I mean, You're

902
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 4: not someone that processes the world like that. I think

903
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 4: all three of us have musical intuition, and I think

904
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: that's that's probably why we do process it like that.

905
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 2: And there's a there's another wrinkle. There's one more badger

906
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: in the bag. We should say the spoiler. Our very

907
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 2: last thing is going to be from that Slate article

908
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: that you mentioned earlier, Mex because it's just beautifully put.

909
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 2: But before we get to that, future technology may mean

910
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: that everyone hallucinates or encounters a voice in their head

911
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: head the role of implants. It's on the horizon, you know, Matt,

912
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: you have mentioned a little bit. We've talked about this

913
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: in the past, but like DARPA is dealing with it.

914
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: Forget the scuttle, but about Elon Musk experimenting on terminally

915
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: ill primates, which was not cool. But so imagine a

916
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 2: world wherein it is normalized, or it is mandatory to

917
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:29,240
Speaker 2: have technology implanted in your head that allows near instantaneous

918
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: connection to the Internet. The voices of old, supernatural and

919
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: infernal deities may become a real thing. The Guardian Angels

920
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: will functionally, in practice be there, except they'll be sponsored

921
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: by dictators, state powers, tech corporations, ad clients. The voice

922
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: in my head needs me to buy RB's.

923
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 4: Now Arby sounds good, but here's the question, you know,

924
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 4: and I'm also picturing like picking up cell phone static

925
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 4: get it, just like inside your head all of a

926
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 4: sudden but like, would again, I know we're not there yet,

927
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 4: but these implants, would they be audio implants that would

928
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 4: vibrate your cocklear you know, bones, or would you be

929
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 4: hearing these sounds quote unquote in your mind?

930
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yeah, you would. Unfortunately, it would be case

931
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: by case basis, because every every person is their own

932
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: spaghetti bowl of cognitive variables. So you know, there's there's

933
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 2: a real mental health danger to the way this stuff

934
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: is being rolled out, and the legislation will get there

935
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 2: about ten years after it should. Uh, it's definitely going

936
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 2: to happen. And you know, Matt, you were alluding to

937
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 2: some experiments that we already know have been ongoing for

938
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 2: quite some time now.

939
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 5: Well, there there are some experience, but there are also

940
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 5: real technologies you can find right now. You can't find

941
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 5: the actual original article unless you have a magazine, so

942
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 5: you'd have to go to probably your local library maybe

943
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 5: though I guarantee the library or Congress will have it,

944
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 5: or you know, if you're in a major city, you

945
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 5: can find it. But it is a It's an article

946
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 5: from the New York Times magazine from two thousand and three.

947
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 5: March two thousand and three. Article is titled the Sound

948
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 5: of Things to come In Here there is a description

949
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 5: of an invention from this person named Woody Norris. It's

950
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 5: titled Hypersonic Sound or HSS. It is an invention that

951
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 5: was awarded the Popular Science Grand Prize for New Inventions

952
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 5: in two thousand and two. Popular Science gave this thing,

953
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 5: gave this guy who invented this a Grand Prize thing.

954
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 5: It is a beam of sound that you can hold

955
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 5: up and it acts like a speaker and it shoots

956
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 5: sound out like a laser beam, and you can target

957
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 5: someone walking down the street and nobody else will hear

958
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 5: what is being played. But you can literally hook it

959
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 5: up to a CD player, to a microphone and you

960
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 5: can be sound into someone's brain.

961
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 4: But again I have to ask, like, is it hitting

962
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 4: them and causing vibrations the way we think of perceiving

963
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 4: sound or is it something bigger than that? Is it

964
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 4: something more advanced than that.

965
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 5: I don't know, but I do know that DARPA in

966
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 5: two thousand and seven was working on something called a

967
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 5: sonic projector that does something very similar, and it was

968
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 5: specifically being developed for sonic deception, an age old tactic that.

969
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 4: Is scized right, They're like, yeah, yes, it's.

970
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:41,479
Speaker 5: Been used since the biblical days before that to trick

971
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 5: an army or individual.

972
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 3: That is my dog.

973
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 5: That is not an auditorial illusination, is it? That is

974
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 5: my dog sleeping and dreaming real hard. But it's just

975
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 5: something that's been around for a long time and powerful.

976
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 5: You know, militaries know that you can trick people with sound.

977
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 5: So if you have the capability to either trick on

978
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 5: an individual level or on a mass level, it creates

979
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 5: doubt for all of this other stuff. One of the

980
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 5: most common things that's reported with hearing hallucinations is that

981
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 5: it's an exterior force, some bad person. Right, we're talking

982
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 5: about how Americans specifically experience that. I just it bothers

983
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 5: me so much that the waters get muddied by actual,

984
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 5: real technological advancements that have been around for well over twenty.

985
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: Years, and it can be deployed easily their cost effective. Imagine,

986
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 2: for instance, if you are a religiously motivated partisan and

987
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you hear what you think to

988
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: be the voice of God telling you to do a

989
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 2: specific thing. These are imperative statements that are meant to

990
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: be made in this kind of in this kind of

991
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 2: asymmetrical warfare. It's a very real thing, like the voice.

992
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 2: If you don't have voice in your head yet, they're

993
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 2: on the way within a few generations from you. As

994
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 2: you hear this today, it's so interesting.

995
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 4: You got me thinking about the psyops angle, Matt, and

996
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 4: it made me think of the Operation Wandering Soul, where

997
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 4: the US, you know, basically planted speakers in a Vietnamese

998
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 4: forest and played these ghost tapes that were essentially, you know,

999
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 4: ghostly sounds trying to get Vietnamese soldiers to defect because

1000
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 4: they thought their ancestors were coming to kill them or

1001
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 4: were disappointed with them in some way. But like what

1002
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 4: you're talking about, Matt, would take that weaponize that to

1003
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 4: another level, especially considering, you know, the cultural aspect of

1004
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 4: it that we've been talking about this whole time. Well

1005
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 4: you're talking about like a reverse of all this like

1006
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 4: induced oral hallucinations. I think it's wow.

1007
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, And this is where we leave it.

1008
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: We've taken you to the edge of the rabbit hole. Folks.

1009
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: There there's one less thing. Will end on this and

1010
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 2: go right to right to our outro, because we need

1011
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 2: your help. We are doing an episode about divine intervention.

1012
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: We want to hear your favorite stories or purported divine intervention,

1013
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: and we want to hear any personal experience you feel

1014
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: you yourself may have had. All Right, the very very

1015
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: last thing. Let's leave the very last word to Eliza Sternberg,

1016
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: writing for Slate, who says the following. The brain is

1017
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 2: a masters storyteller, designed to make sense of the chaos

1018
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: of our lives. It compensates for the presence of auditory

1019
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 2: hallucinations caused by a defect and self recognition by writing

1020
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: a narrative to account for them. It's no accident that

1021
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: schizophrenic patients reach for spy agencies, religious entities, or supernatural

1022
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 2: forces when describing the voices in their heads. These are

1023
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 2: theories that the brain can cox to explain how a

1024
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 2: foreign voice could infiltrate a mind, know it intimately, and

1025
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 2: torment its victim with relentless surveillance. Either way you look

1026
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: at it, there's a conspiracy afoot. What do you think? Folks?

1027
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: Tell us we're easy to find online.

1028
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 4: It's right. You can find us at the handle conspiracy

1029
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 4: stuff on YouTube, Facebook and x nay, Twitter, Twitter and AXX.

1030
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 4: You know the one. You can find us at Conspiracy

1031
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 4: Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok.

1032
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 5: Hey, if you want to give us some auditory stuff,

1033
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 5: whatever it is, you can do that too. Call went

1034
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 5: eight three three s t d WYTK. It's a voicemail system.

1035
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 5: Give yourself a cool name. Let us know if we

1036
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 5: can use your name end message on the air. If

1037
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 5: you don't want to do that, why not instead send

1038
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 5: us a good old fashioned email.

1039
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 2: We are the people who read every single email we

1040
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 2: get at conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1041
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 5: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1042
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 5: of iHeartRadio from More podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app,

1043
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.