Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Oh man, welcome back to behind the Bastards. All of
Speaker 2: you beautiful people and also all of you ugly people.
Speaker 2: You know, all all people are beautiful, except for I
Speaker 2: just kind of said that. I didn't that they're.
Speaker 1: Not that inside and outside beauty.
Speaker 2: You know, Well, there's only one kind. There's only one kind.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say what it is. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say which kind of beauty, but there's only
Speaker 2: one kind. Yeah, it's elbows. I'm an elbow guy. I'm
Speaker 2: an elbow guy. Yeah, I'm starting the wiki feet of elbows.
Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of like really blurry cropped photos
Speaker 2: of like elbows of different celebrities.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you know there's no nerve endings
Speaker 1: in your elbow skin?
Speaker 2: That's the hottest thing about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an elbow guy and a friend in my
Speaker 1: Comparative Religions class that discovered weed and will make everybody
Speaker 1: bite his elbows the beginning of every class.
Speaker 2: And oh that that's a pervert. That's a par Oh
Speaker 2: that's an elbow pervert right there.
Speaker 3: Well, currently he's a born again meteorologist in North Carolina.
Speaker 3: So yes, that is a pervert.
Speaker 2: No, I can see why you're be scared that God
Speaker 2: is angry at you if you're that kind of pervert,
Speaker 2: Because he is, but that that makes it hotter for
Speaker 2: a lot of us. Brandy Posy, welcome back to the program.
Speaker 2: You want to plug anything at the top before we
Speaker 2: get too deep into elbows?
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, before we get elbow deep.
Speaker 2: Bowen, bowen with Robert and Brandy getting a damn Mayby.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I run a comedy record label. It's called Burn
Speaker 3: This Record. We seekul to create like equity between our
Speaker 3: artists in a way that most comedy labels don't. I
Speaker 3: have put out seventeen albums. Last year was our first year.
Speaker 3: This year we have about fifteen.
Speaker 1: It's digital only. And everybody is.
Speaker 3: Funny but a good person, which is a ven diagram
Speaker 3: that I wish more people in comedy paid attention.
Speaker 2: Yes, well I think that's awesome. Uh So check that
Speaker 2: out everybody, and uh let's let's get Are you ready
Speaker 2: to get back into this story, into these aliens and spooks? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: speaking of bows, Richard Dody probably doesn't have nice elbows.
Speaker 2: He's our Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
Speaker 4: When you said, I was like, are we talking for
Speaker 4: your hair?
Speaker 1: Are we talking? Are we talking speakers? Are we talking?
Speaker 1: There's so many bows? Does he have no bows? No? No,
Speaker 1: no partners, what are we talking about?
Speaker 2: You know what? Speaking of bows? I will let pee.
Speaker 2: This is just yesterday I wound up just because of
Speaker 2: it happened as I was driving, like responding to a
Speaker 2: three car crash, and there was a young woman in
Speaker 2: the middle car who was the only one who was hurt.
Speaker 2: And she was hurt because she had a beret in
Speaker 2: like the back.
Speaker 4: Of her for for claw yeah, which is a no go.
Speaker 2: Anyway, don't wear those in the car a car.
Speaker 1: Do your hairs, bringing.
Speaker 4: Your claw clip in the car, but do not wear
Speaker 4: it while you're while you're in the car, because it would.
Speaker 1: You bad bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 3: I have a friend that is her sister's an ear nurse,
Speaker 3: and when she gets in her car, her whole back
Speaker 3: seat is full of those claws because when it gets
Speaker 3: in her car and she throws it, she just takes
Speaker 3: it out in the back seat because the number one
Speaker 3: thing that she sees and hear her r room is
Speaker 3: that in women's skulls from the car accidents.
Speaker 2: So thankfully, this lady seemed fine, I do like.
Speaker 4: You're saying barett the way you said it so surgical.
Speaker 2: I thought that's what it was called. I thought that's
Speaker 2: what it was.
Speaker 1: You're not wrong, but you're also wrong anyway.
Speaker 2: Don't don't wear those. And also, if you're ever in
Speaker 2: a car accident and your head is hurt in any way,
Speaker 2: shape or form, go get checked out by a professional.
Speaker 2: Don't just assume it's okay. You don't want to wind
Speaker 2: up like that famous guy's wife. No. Yeah, one brain
Speaker 2: saying that to be wasn't saying that to be flippant.
Speaker 2: It's a real problem. Yes, go to the doctor. So
Speaker 2: let's talk about fucking UFOs and a guy who didn't
Speaker 2: go to the doctor. Maybe enough, or maybe went too much.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Richard Doty was born sometime around the
Speaker 2: immediate post war period. He is. I haven't actually run
Speaker 2: into his exact and that said, I didn't like go
Speaker 2: super hardcore digging into it. His father and his uncle,
Speaker 2: Edward were his chief influences growing up, and both were
Speaker 2: military men. This guy is kind of, you know, an
Speaker 2: I think, a like mid boomer something like that. And
Speaker 2: his uncle Edward had been a career officer and meteorologist.
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty seven, he'd been made chief of an
Speaker 2: Air Force weather research station working on something called the
Speaker 2: Atmospheric Divergence Project. Now, decades later, because Richard dody is
Speaker 2: not just the guy who's going to like spread a
Speaker 2: bunch of lies to Paul Benowitz that helps drive him mad,
Speaker 2: he also becomes like an alien influencer, claiming that like,
Speaker 2: oh no, I actually did also see real aliens, guys,
Speaker 2: and you can totally trust me. I know that. Like
Speaker 2: my whole thing is, I lied to a guy about
Speaker 2: aliens for years, but also you can trust me when
Speaker 2: I tell you about aliens that I saw.
Speaker 1: Ye, yeah, yeah, I lied because I also tell the truth.
Speaker 2: Yes, how exactly exactly now that I'm out, you can
Speaker 2: trust me. So Richard Dodie, the spook and liar kind
Speaker 2: of guy has in kind of modern interviews, tells viewers
Speaker 2: that the atmospheric divergence project his uncle worked on was
Speaker 2: an attempt to quote change or neutralize gravity around a
Speaker 2: rocket to aid in space travel. Now, I haven't found
Speaker 2: the exact details and the specific project his uncle worked on,
Speaker 2: but I don't think this is true because while I
Speaker 2: did not find the reports on that project. I did
Speaker 2: spend way too much of my research time reading through
Speaker 2: an Air Force handbook on meteorological techniques and atmospheric divergence
Speaker 2: impacts the growth of systems in a bunch of ways
Speaker 2: that are obviously relevant to an Air Force meteorologist and
Speaker 2: not at all involved with fucking up gravity for space travel. Right,
Speaker 2: this sounds like a normal meteorologist thing to do. Richard
Speaker 2: is a tall tail spinner, right, yes, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And one of the issues with my sources because the
Speaker 2: two of them, I've got a bunch of articles in
Speaker 2: here that you can you can find. But there's also
Speaker 2: two books that I read for this. One is Saucerged,
Speaker 2: Spooks and Kooks by Adam go Rightly and one is
Speaker 2: Project Beta by Greg Bishop. Both of them are very entertaining.
Speaker 2: I think Greg's book, Project Beta is the better book.
Speaker 2: Both of these guys also believe in stuff I don't
Speaker 2: particularly Bishop, while I think he because I've caught there's
Speaker 2: some stuff in go Rightley's book that I caught that's
Speaker 2: just not factually just slips out that he slipped up on.
Speaker 2: I think Bishop is more familiar with the subculture. But
Speaker 2: also Bishop definitely believes a bunch of shit. I don't.
Speaker 2: And he's you can tell he kind of is excited
Speaker 2: at like talking with these spooks and spies, and I
Speaker 2: think he gives them a lot more credit than he
Speaker 2: ought to.
Speaker 1: Oh god, and he's caught up on the romance of
Speaker 1: it all. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think he is not in a way that I
Speaker 2: think makes his basic conclusions wrong or his book not
Speaker 2: worth reading. Again, I think it's actually quite worth reading.
Speaker 2: It's quite a good book, and I think he's a
Speaker 2: good writer. I just don't I'm not sympatico with him
Speaker 2: on all of the conclusions he comes to about these guys.
Speaker 2: I don't mean that as an insult to the man,
Speaker 2: because again I liked his book a lot so, but
Speaker 2: that is an issue when it comes to like trying
Speaker 2: to figure out shit here right, and in Project Beta,
Speaker 2: Bishop does do about like the best of any of
Speaker 2: them at kind of questioning Dody by saying, perhaps this
Speaker 2: had something to do with weather control, or maybe it
Speaker 2: was something more prosaic, and like it didn't. It wasn't
Speaker 2: rather control their gravity. It was just studying how this
Speaker 2: thing that affects meteorological forecasts work. Very normal thing for
Speaker 2: a meteorologists to do anyway, Doty joined the Air Force
Speaker 2: as a young man, just like his Paul and uncle
Speaker 2: and per Bishop. He entered in nineteen sixty eight as
Speaker 2: a combat security policeman. Dody would later claim he was
Speaker 2: quote tested and tracked throughout his career to become a
Speaker 2: base security guard and then a special agent for FOC,
Speaker 2: the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Now that's how
Speaker 2: Dody tells the story, and I don't think he's I don't.
Speaker 2: I think that's very silly because I'm not an expert
Speaker 2: on this, but I've known a number of people who
Speaker 2: were in different military intelligence roles, and I will tell
Speaker 2: you one thing that is very consistent. Base security guard
Speaker 2: is not a job that you are scouted for your
Speaker 2: entire career, right, Like it's kind of a shit gig actually,
Speaker 2: Like nobody likes base security and it's not really what
Speaker 2: most kids join wanting to do with their lives, right.
Speaker 3: Oh no, it's a cast step above base janitor. But
Speaker 3: like also the same kind of Yeah, I'm not a
Speaker 3: smirch either job necessarily, but also like you're not security.
Speaker 2: I'll smirch it some. I'm smirching a little here.
Speaker 1: Just a scooch of smirch.
Speaker 2: We'll take it, yeah, yeah, yeah, And Dotie really wants
Speaker 2: people to believe that he was like he was scouted
Speaker 2: by the Air Force because like, we need to go
Speaker 2: we can trust to do security for our very secret,
Speaker 2: very real alien projects, and like wow, we we noted
Speaker 2: from the beginning of his time in the Air Force
Speaker 2: that he had something special, right, And that's the way
Speaker 2: he talks about his backgrounds.
Speaker 1: Very observative report but with aliens.
Speaker 2: Says yes, yes, and you know, a FOC is more
Speaker 2: prestigious than base security. He eventually does, you know, he's
Speaker 2: a special agent. He's a sergeant, but he's also a
Speaker 2: special agent for this and that is like a more
Speaker 2: prestigious role. But also his job with an a FOCY
Speaker 2: isn't the most prestigious thing because other members of that
Speaker 2: agency are literally this is like the time that he's
Speaker 2: in is one of like the high points for like
Speaker 2: spy shit anywhere in the WORL like history. Right, other
Speaker 2: guys and a FOC are locked in life and death
Speaker 2: spy battles with like fucking got some of the best
Speaker 2: spies on planet Earth, right, you know you've got the
Speaker 2: foreign you know, Russian and Chinese agents. Like there's there's
Speaker 2: some really interesting shit going on here. Dodie's job during
Speaker 2: this like great international game is to light of people
Speaker 2: who believe they'd been molested by Martians. So he doesn't
Speaker 2: have the sexiest job within this sort of field, right.
Speaker 3: Not quite espionage James Bond.
Speaker 2: You know, there are some guys in a foc doing
Speaker 2: some really like you talk about the ethics of it,
Speaker 2: but like interesting spy shit. He's I mean, it is interesting,
Speaker 2: but not in the same way I'd like to see
Speaker 2: his Bond movie though I would like for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this, this low rent Bond is definitely a movie
Speaker 3: that I'd be into.
Speaker 2: That's kind of the premise of the Slow Horses TV show, right,
Speaker 2: which which does have one the commissioner Gordon's in it,
Speaker 2: and he's great. Yeah, hey the show. I have mixed
Speaker 2: opinions on it, but he's always always a charm. The originals, well,
Speaker 2: not the original, the one from the Nolan movies. I
Speaker 2: forget his name, Gary Oldman. So Doty today claims that
Speaker 2: right after basic training, and again this is also bullshit,
Speaker 2: he was taken to a room and shown footage of
Speaker 2: UFOs and like I don't believe that if there are
Speaker 2: aliens that the government has evidence of, obviously there's some
Speaker 2: people that they led into that secret within military intelligence.
Speaker 2: It's not going to be anyone who just finished basic
Speaker 2: because you know who can finish basic training almost anyone.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, hey, eighteen year old, about a frontal lobe
Speaker 3: that is fully firmed.
Speaker 1: You want to see aliens right now?
Speaker 3: Like unless when't fuck with you specifically, maybe, but like
Speaker 3: not a like an official constructive capacity for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, guy whose primary hobby is getting blackout drunk
Speaker 2: every single night of the week, Let's let's show you
Speaker 2: an alien video.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: In all those push ups you did, Guess what, here's
Speaker 3: also aliens.
Speaker 1: You passed the test.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, this is generally described as a test, and
Speaker 2: I think that's how like Bishop describes it in his book,
Speaker 2: is that Doty is being tested to see who, or
Speaker 2: at least Dotie claims he was being tested to see,
Speaker 2: you know, if he could be trusted with more detailed
Speaker 2: info about extraterrestrials. So I guess there's a possibility that
Speaker 2: maybe something like this did happen and it wasn't real aliens,
Speaker 2: but it was just like let's show a bunch of
Speaker 2: guys alien footage and like, see who leaks it? Right
Speaker 2: that they saw something? You know, see who we can trust? Stuff?
Speaker 2: Like I don't think even then, I kind of doubt
Speaker 2: it because they weren't really doing that to guys who
Speaker 2: just finished Basic. But shit like that is happening within
Speaker 2: different kind of intelligence agencies, and it's not just aliens
Speaker 2: they lie about. The disinfo is given out to people
Speaker 2: during this period of time in different intel roles just
Speaker 2: to see if they can be trusted, right, Like, that's
Speaker 2: a thing that happens. Dody also claims that he served
Speaker 2: as a guard at Area fifty one, where he saw
Speaker 2: a UFO. Now again, Area fifty one is a real base.
Speaker 2: They are really try doing experimental shit with planes there.
Speaker 2: This could be true, and in fact, the story he
Speaker 2: tells might might be true, but not in a way
Speaker 2: he wants you to think, because he claims while he's
Speaker 2: there he sees them wheeling out this huge black disc
Speaker 2: that's some sort of craft that they're trying to get
Speaker 2: into the atmosphere that they like launch and it doesn't
Speaker 2: look like anything he's ever seen, and his commanding officer
Speaker 2: takes him aside, right, because he sees dodies fascinated in this.
Speaker 2: And here's the conversation that is related in the book
Speaker 2: Project Beta Airman, Dody, do you know what that craft was,
Speaker 2: asked the officer. No, sir, that's what is generally known
Speaker 2: as a UFO, and it's not one of ours. It's
Speaker 2: on loan, yes, sir. Someday, if you play your cards right,
Speaker 2: you will learn know a lot more. But for now,
Speaker 2: you are to tell no one about this and you
Speaker 2: are not to discuss it with anyone. Is that clear?
Speaker 2: Dodi never talked about it again, And first off, obviously
Speaker 2: he did. You you're telling us this story.
Speaker 3: So from reading it in a book that's definitely been
Speaker 3: recounted several times.
Speaker 2: But also Pieri, Yeah, that could be basically true and
Speaker 2: have nothing to do with aliens. He could have been
Speaker 2: on guard duty seen a weird craft that maybe like
Speaker 2: it was a fucking French or Canadian thing that like
Speaker 2: we were doing tests on, right, So it's on loan,
Speaker 2: and his boss is just kind of like, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe if you play your cards right, you'll you'll get
Speaker 2: we'll trust you with more stuff, right, And I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know if Dodie actually gets much more trust.
Speaker 2: But this could be largely accurate, although I don't think
Speaker 2: that's likely. Yeah yeah, that said, like there's evidence he
Speaker 2: is working. He probably he definitely does see experimental craft
Speaker 2: through his job for FOC later in his career, because
Speaker 2: he's working at bases where they're doing that. That doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that he's told what it all is because they
Speaker 2: they silo that info. Even if it's your job to
Speaker 2: stop people from finding out about these programs, you may
Speaker 2: not be told much about them because it's a need
Speaker 2: to know a thing, and you don't. Right, you need
Speaker 2: to stop people from filming the weird craft. You don't
Speaker 2: need to know how it works. You don't need to
Speaker 2: know what it is, right.
Speaker 1: Like no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 3: They don't want curious people working on like lower levels
Speaker 3: of this stuff at all, Like they're not. No, they
Speaker 3: want you to just come in and be like, my
Speaker 3: job is to do this and then have blinders up
Speaker 3: to everything.
Speaker 2: I didn't see shit. This is why I've been saying
Speaker 2: this for years. The government should have all of its
Speaker 2: security done by street level drug dealers. You know, those
Speaker 2: guys can keep their fucking mouth shut.
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely no snitches, exactly exactly Area fifty one,
Speaker 3: all security provided by coke dealers.
Speaker 2: Just don't give me any coke. Then they talk about everything. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that came from sober. Otherwise it ends very badly.
Speaker 1: Oh man, what a fun place. Just a bunch of
Speaker 1: sober coke dealers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a bunch of sober coke dealers at Area fifty one.
Speaker 2: This is going to end well. So there's evidence that
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, Dody is a credulous guy.
Speaker 2: He does come to at least he will claim to
Speaker 2: believe in this. He might just be fucking with everybody.
Speaker 2: I don't really know, but a lot of guys in
Speaker 2: his kind of level, in different intel agencies are believers themselves,
Speaker 2: right so at any rate, Doty claims that his chief
Speaker 2: mentor in spy shit was a guy named Seelely Howard,
Speaker 2: a former insurance salesman. According to Dotie, he gave him
Speaker 2: this sage advice early in his spook career. There are
Speaker 2: three sorts of people you will be dealing with. The
Speaker 2: First are the ones who will believe anything you say.
Speaker 2: The second are those who will, at least at first
Speaker 2: refuse to believe you. The last is the group who
Speaker 2: won't believe you at first but might be willing to
Speaker 2: be convinced. And what I find interesting about that is
Speaker 2: those last two groups are the same group of people. Yes,
Speaker 2: people who don't believe you at first, but you can
Speaker 2: make them believe you. I don't see the difference.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, no, one is just on a longer timeline.
Speaker 1: And yeah, even baba, yeah yeah, yeah. Sure.
Speaker 2: So as soon as Paul Benowitz called the Air Force
Speaker 2: with results of his surveillance, they knew they might have
Speaker 2: a problem. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations very
Speaker 2: quickly became concerned that Paul Benowitz had stumbled onto his
Speaker 2: secret laser based tracking system located in Kirtland. At least
Speaker 2: that's one of the things he might have stumbled on.
Speaker 2: Greg Bishop, who wrote Project Beta, noted that these transmissions
Speaker 2: sounded like Jibrish language that had been distorted and sped up,
Speaker 2: or to a true believer like Paul, they sounded like
Speaker 2: alien's speech. Edwards, chief of Kurtland based Security, had previously
Speaker 2: described Doty to a friend at the NSA as his
Speaker 2: drug man. And so that's less cool than it sounds.
Speaker 2: As Greg Bishop writes, the duty simply involved checking for
Speaker 2: allegations of illegal drug use on the base, but it
Speaker 2: was only one of aged Dotey's minor assignments. The FOC
Speaker 2: has jurisdiction over all criminal and security investigations at Air
Speaker 2: Force facilities. Most FOC agents must carry a high security clearance.
Speaker 2: Agents need to know what they are protecting so that
Speaker 2: security threats can be recognized quickly. Benowitz carefully described to
Speaker 2: Doty what he had seen and recorded, all while trying
Speaker 2: to keep what he really thought was going on to
Speaker 2: himself for the moment. And this is where I think
Speaker 2: Bishop is too credulous because again think back to Roswell,
Speaker 2: the first guy, Like they don't tell the people who
Speaker 2: are looking and responding to that crashed balloon that Project
Speaker 2: Mogul exists. It's very common for these guys not to
Speaker 2: be in the loop about stuff, right, especially since he's
Speaker 2: just a sergeant, you know, like he's not a super
Speaker 2: high level guy here. That said, Dody is kind of
Speaker 2: sent to talk to Bennowitz, and he's like, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: why don't you come to the base and we can
Speaker 2: talk about your research. And so Paul heads to the
Speaker 2: base and he shows Dody what he's got, and Dody
Speaker 2: is initially kind of you know, bored, and then he
Speaker 2: perks up when Paul starts to show him his radio array.
Speaker 2: He returns to the base to talk with some NSA
Speaker 2: colleagues about being bringing an expert out to Paul's home
Speaker 2: to see what he built. So he visits Paul at
Speaker 2: his house, and this time with an actual like like
Speaker 2: scientist in tow and another engineer, a guy named Lou Miles.
Speaker 2: And the fact that Paul has now been invited to
Speaker 2: the base to talk He's had, you know, a guy
Speaker 2: come over to his house from Air Force intelligence. Paul
Speaker 2: is like takes this as evidence that like, I'm on
Speaker 2: the right track and the Air Force supports me. I'm
Speaker 2: now kind of helping looking, helping the Air Force find
Speaker 2: evidence that there's aliens. You know, I kind of got
Speaker 2: my ex files job because they think I'm so cool
Speaker 2: and smart. Buddy.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: It's really sick because he's just trying to.
Speaker 1: Help, you know, yeah, I no, he is just trying.
Speaker 2: He just wants to keep his country safe of a threat.
Speaker 2: You are oh no, my man, No, not at all.
Speaker 2: So the expert Doughtie brings to Paul's home is Lou Miles.
Speaker 2: Like Valdez, that State trooper. Miles was a guy who
Speaker 2: wanted to believe. He had been involved to an extent
Speaker 2: with Project Blue Book, which was like a multi year
Speaker 2: Air Force investigation into UFOs. It's one of the big
Speaker 2: seminal moments in early UFO history, right yeah, yeah. It
Speaker 2: was also now the chief scientist for Kirtland's Test Center,
Speaker 2: so he knew the reality behind a lot of the
Speaker 2: strange aerial phenomena that guys like Paul credited to aliens.
Speaker 2: So he's both like open to believing, but also like, oh,
Speaker 2: but I know that I know what you're actually seeing,
Speaker 2: and it's not aliens. It's this thing that we're working on. Nevertheless,
Speaker 2: he was good at talking to Benowitz while Dodie hung
Speaker 2: back and took photos with a hidden camera for the NSSA,
Speaker 2: who is also involved in this. It's kind of murky
Speaker 2: exactly where a FOC begins and the NSA ends, and
Speaker 2: like there's some evidence the CIA is also gets involved.
Speaker 2: There's like a lot of people are kind of interested
Speaker 2: in what Paul is doing, but no one's interested in
Speaker 2: Paul's evidence of alien interference. They're again worried about, like
Speaker 2: interested is whether or not he's actually like gotten any
Speaker 2: encrypted shit. And they also think he might be useful
Speaker 2: because being an actually brilliant engineer working in the aerospace
Speaker 2: industry and someone who goes to these UFO conventions, he's
Speaker 2: kind of trusted within the UFO community. So if they
Speaker 2: want to get a lot of people to like pay
Speaker 2: attention to something other than the real shady shit they're
Speaker 2: doing at Kirtland, he might be able to convince them, right,
Speaker 2: he might be able to distract attention away from the
Speaker 2: real shit that being done that they want to hide.
Speaker 2: So yeah. For the next year, Paul waits for updates
Speaker 2: from the military and he continues his special interest exploring
Speaker 2: extraterrestrial phenomena. In May of the next year, in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 2: a twenty six year old woman named Myrna Hansen called
Speaker 2: the state police to claim that she and her six
Speaker 2: year old had been accosted by alien visitors near Eagle Nest,
Speaker 2: New Mexico. The state troopers basically shrugged and handed the
Speaker 2: case over to the only cop they knew who dial
Speaker 2: dealt with this sort of shit, Gabe Valdez. If I'm
Speaker 2: remembering correctly. I believe Valdez's attitude is that Myrna was
Speaker 2: probably a plant. That's not clear to me. Again, a
Speaker 2: lot of sketchy shit's going on here.
Speaker 1: Immediately doesn't trust the woman, okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but also this kind of shit go on,
Speaker 2: so I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also is a man, the six year old
Speaker 3: fucking with me?
Speaker 2: Right? Right? So Gabe calls our boy Paul and they
Speaker 2: go off to meet Myrna. Now, by the start of
Speaker 2: the eighties, the science of hypnotic regrets, which is not
Speaker 2: really a science, had taken off among people who believed
Speaker 2: or wanted to believe that they had been abducted by aliens.
Speaker 3: Right, So let me turn you into a chicken first
Speaker 3: and then tell me if you saw the aliens or not.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to hypnotize you
Speaker 2: and then walk you like say, a bunch of leading
Speaker 2: things that get you to tell a fun alien story.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, a lot of this stuff is some
Speaker 2: similar shit's happening with like the Satanic panic. We're just
Speaker 2: into the idea. I mean, there's a lot of this
Speaker 2: in the X files, right, this idea that people have
Speaker 2: memories locked away that this psychologist or psychiatrist who definitely
Speaker 2: doesn't ever wind up fucking his patients can unlock.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people aren't like cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people aren't susceptible to being influenced to say things
Speaker 3: to write please somebody either.
Speaker 2: Yes, whatsoever? Yeah, speaking of things that aren't sketchy. Sponsors
Speaker 2: of this podcast never never, they would never do anything illegal.
Speaker 2: Although we did just find out out that what's that
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Speaker 1: So which I'd be curious.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Sophie, which one was it.
Speaker 1: I don't remember one of them.
Speaker 2: Anyway, here's the ads. We're back. Sponsors love that sort
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 1: Hey, that's what that's their problem for going dynamic.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So Gabe called our boy Paul,
Speaker 2: and off they went to meet Myrna Benowitz, who is
Speaker 2: working for that civilian organizement, not working for but is
Speaker 2: like one of the head guys at APRO, that civilian
Speaker 2: looking into the UFO things, and like is also working
Speaker 2: with this actual sheriff's deputy. UH partners. He and and
Speaker 2: Gabe partner with a University of Wyoming professor who's who's
Speaker 2: an ex a quote unquote expert in hypnotic regression. And
Speaker 2: this guy's name is literally doctor Leo Sprinkle. Fuck yeah,
Speaker 2: great soup, what a seam, great stuff.
Speaker 1: Man, good on adulthood.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's a situation.
Speaker 3: Leonardo Sprinkle, No, Leonardo Sprinkle, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh fuck me. So in his books Saucer, Spooks and Cooks,
Speaker 2: Adam Go rightly summarizes Benowitz. By this time had convinced
Speaker 2: himself that the ETS were transmitting a mind control beam
Speaker 2: to repress my Myrna Hansen's memories. Benowitz believed that the
Speaker 2: ETS were likely beaming him in an attempt to disrupt
Speaker 2: his ongoing UFO probe. To thwart this extraterrestrial electronic harassment,
Speaker 2: Benowitz arranged for Hanson's regression to take place in his
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine Lincoln town car with multiple sheets of
Speaker 2: aluminum foil draped over the windows to deflect the dreaded
Speaker 2: alien beams. Benowitz connected these perceived beams to cattle mutilations.
Speaker 2: It's so cool, I love this ship. Who's fucking wrapping
Speaker 2: his car intend for the aliens are blocking her memory
Speaker 2: with the beams. He's married, right, Oh yeah, he's got
Speaker 2: a wife and she is a long suffering. I don't
Speaker 2: know much about her, but a saint, I'll say that much. No,
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: I know the power of disassociation. This woman is capable of.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's like, honey, I need the car to
Speaker 3: go to the grocery shore.
Speaker 1: No, I have to go interview this woman. I got
Speaker 1: the aluminum cable foil.
Speaker 2: You get that tenfoil out?
Speaker 1: We need it for the potatoes tonight. Absolutely not. I
Speaker 1: needed to protect us from aliens.
Speaker 2: And again he's he's been talking to Dody for months
Speaker 2: at this point, and Doty is kind of just like
Speaker 2: every he's yes, ending everything Paul says, right, like, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: that sounds real, Paul, Yeah, definitely, Oh yeah, No, No,
Speaker 2: aluminum foil, great idea, man, Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3: Is this where lubinum foil comes from? Is this like
Speaker 3: the the origin of that?
Speaker 1: Like this will block waves.
Speaker 2: Part of it? Yeah. I don't know that Paul is
Speaker 2: the only guy who starts it, but this is like
Speaker 2: he is on the ground floor of the aluminum foil
Speaker 2: will stop the aliens from reading your mind thing? Yes,
Speaker 2: that's definitely fair to say he's among the because he's
Speaker 2: very influential in this culture.
Speaker 1: Tests Yeah, Yeah, so we.
Speaker 2: Can see at this point he's already kind of starting
Speaker 2: to go over the edge. Right, Paul begins writing analysis
Speaker 2: of Mirna's hypnotic regression regression sessions replete with lines like
Speaker 2: the alien does all caps kill with the beam, generally
Speaker 2: kill with a beam?
Speaker 1: Yeah, where bodies? Where bodies?
Speaker 2: Okay, Paul, Now the reality is that Hanson had just
Speaker 2: brought up a bunch of existent UFO lore during her sessions. Right,
Speaker 2: she complained about missing time, She described being picked up
Speaker 2: in a tractor beam. She claimed an alien crewman had
Speaker 2: brandished a silver knife before cutting into a cow's chest,
Speaker 2: and she eventually described being taken to an underground base
Speaker 2: where a metallic device was put inside her brain. Now,
Speaker 2: this is part of why there's some theorizing that like
Speaker 2: maybe she was a plant. Is This is when, and
Speaker 2: Paul is the guy who really does more than anyone
Speaker 2: to start this. This is when you start getting these
Speaker 2: these UFO conspiracies about underground bases. And they're usually either
Speaker 2: like bases that are our military shares with the aliens,
Speaker 2: or maybe the aliens run the base. You know, there's
Speaker 2: some stories about them having fights with the army and whatnot.
Speaker 2: And these bases underground. But the real thing behind this
Speaker 2: is that a bunch of people in Albuquerque had watched
Speaker 2: and like this is something that Paul would have seen
Speaker 2: from his house as the Air Force dug this massive
Speaker 2: underground nuclear storage space, like the largest weapons underground weapons
Speaker 2: storage base ever or at least at that point in time.
Speaker 2: And so people are like wondering, what's this really for?
Speaker 2: And the answer is pretty evil, Like it's for nukes.
Speaker 2: But yeah, nukes, Yeah, they There's a lot of theories
Speaker 2: as to why so. Hanson also claimed Perbinowitz that she
Speaker 2: had picked up an STD described as a vaginal disease
Speaker 2: like strepto coxy bacillas from the aliens. Paul wrote to
Speaker 2: his colleagues at the Volunteer Alien Hunting Group that quote,
Speaker 2: we are trying to culture it, no luck as yet. Also,
Speaker 2: it has evaded all of our known antibiotics with penicillin.
Speaker 1: Damn, nobody's doing sex at on these aliens. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: I got to learn to wrap it up what it is.
Speaker 2: You got to wrap it up, though, Paul, you are
Speaker 2: an electrical engineer. I don't think that you are qualified
Speaker 2: to say that it's an unlike it can't be like
Speaker 2: it's it's a it's got to be an alien STD.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a normal one. Maybe it's just a normal one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not.
Speaker 2: A doctor, Paul. You should first off, you should be
Speaker 2: given this late antibiotics. Paul, you're you're not a doctor,
Speaker 2: You're really so. He also revealed that MYRNA was being
Speaker 2: quote badly beaten on by the alien with their beams
Speaker 2: twenty four hours a day, and once Murna starts talking
Speaker 2: to him about how she's just constantly being beam attacked,
Speaker 2: Paul starts to believe that he too is being beaten
Speaker 2: on with beams, and he urges his colleagues, who plan
Speaker 2: to do regression work, to lock themselves in a car
Speaker 2: in a garage coated with three layers of aluminum foil
Speaker 2: to protect themselves from the beams. He's doing well, is
Speaker 2: what you say. At this point. He's doing great, our boy, Paul,
Speaker 2: very very healthy and making rational choices.
Speaker 1: Fall You've fallen so far. You were doing so good, buddy.
Speaker 2: So Dody is occasionally checking in with Paul, but he's
Speaker 2: also spending the intervening months, you know, seventy nine early
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty working on another Mark. And this guy is
Speaker 2: a journalist or a quote unquote journalist, depending on how
Speaker 2: you see it, with a reputation for he is considered
Speaker 2: to be one of the more rigorous guys within the
Speaker 2: UFO community. By the UFO community. Take of that what
Speaker 2: you will. His name is George Moore, at least that's
Speaker 2: how he's described in Project Beta. But also the author
Speaker 2: Project Beta really likes this guy, like impressed by him.
Speaker 2: So I don't feel the same way about more Go.
Speaker 2: Rightley's narrative makes him out to be like less more
Speaker 2: of like one of an interchangeable number of UFO kind
Speaker 2: of weirdos, although one who is you know, reached out
Speaker 2: to by the government to spread dis info and more
Speaker 2: claims that like he's down with this, right. And the
Speaker 2: reason we're talking about him is that he is the
Speaker 2: co author of that book, that first big book that
Speaker 2: gets like UFOs back in vogue. Right, he's interviewing that
Speaker 2: guy from Roswell. He's one of the guys who helps
Speaker 2: make Roswell into like the thing that it is in
Speaker 2: our culture. Right, He's written a bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, he's a very influential figure within this field.
Speaker 2: And that inspires Dody and a colleague to approach him.
Speaker 2: In July of nineteen eighty, Jim Lorenzen of APRO receives
Speaker 2: a letter with no return address claiming to tell the
Speaker 2: story of an eighteen year old Civil Air Porce troll
Speaker 2: member who had cited a UFO and then been threatened
Speaker 2: by a man in black named mister Huck. The young
Speaker 2: man had reported this to a mister Dobie at AFOCI, right,
Speaker 2: that's the Air Force, that's Dodie's agency. So Lawrence gets
Speaker 2: this letter and he thinks it's weird, and he sends
Speaker 2: it to Bill Mitchell, who's the best journalist he knows,
Speaker 2: and or Bill Moore, who's the best journalist he knows.
Speaker 2: And Moore is immediately is like, oh, this is bullshit,
Speaker 2: and he knows it because he does some actual journalism.
Speaker 2: Like he reaches out to the named witness and then
Speaker 2: witnesses like, well, yeah, I saw some like weird lights,
Speaker 2: but I never was I was never threatened by a
Speaker 2: man in black, Like none of the rest of this
Speaker 2: is real.
Speaker 1: Man. The tiniest amount of journalism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really, that's all.
Speaker 7: It takes a lot of Yeah, I just double check.
Speaker 7: This'll literally just ask this guy if this happened. The
Speaker 7: letter was actually the creation of Dodie and his colleagues
Speaker 7: at AFOSI. They were hoping to rope in somebody like
Speaker 7: Bill Right, somebody smart enough to have credibility in the subculture,
Speaker 7: but also who might fall for a fake Right. They
Speaker 7: didn't succeed in tricking him, but they continued fishing. In
Speaker 7: September of nineteen eighty, More finished a blockbuster book, The
Speaker 7: Roswell Incident, which is, Yeah, that's one of the things
Speaker 7: that we exnites public entrants.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So military intelligence gets very interested after this point,
Speaker 2: and while he's doing his book tour, he keeps getting
Speaker 2: calls at radio stations where like guys will be like, hey,
Speaker 2: do you want to have a meeting? You know, I'm
Speaker 2: from a government intel agency and I'd like to talk,
Speaker 2: and he is. He eventually agrees, and he's met by
Speaker 2: a man who dresses and acts very much like a
Speaker 2: spy in the movie. Now, my opinion on what's happening
Speaker 2: here is that there's some two way feedback. More desperately
Speaker 2: wants to be a journalist working on classified fringe like
Speaker 2: X files kind of stories, right, and he wants to
Speaker 2: feel like he's part of this great game of spies
Speaker 2: and spooks. Now the spooks he's talking to, these are
Speaker 2: real spies, but they're not the high level operators working
Speaker 2: to unearth, you know, Russian nuclear secrets or doing the
Speaker 2: fucking cool shit that they make movies about. There are
Speaker 2: some enlisted guys at the Air Force, mostly tasked with
Speaker 2: lying to Rubes to cover up flight testing, right, and
Speaker 2: they here's the thing, this is like a two way
Speaker 2: street because they also want to feel like they're doing
Speaker 2: cool spy shit, right, and so Doty and George more
Speaker 2: part of what they're both doing because they're both much
Speaker 2: more rational than Paul's. At this point, they're kind of
Speaker 2: LARPing together in my opinion. You know, they're kind of like, well, Dody,
Speaker 2: I get to play like I'm this very serious man
Speaker 2: in black, and More is like, and I get to
Speaker 2: play like I'm fucking Fox Molder almost right, you know,
Speaker 2: the shows in the air at this point. But that's
Speaker 2: what they're both getting here, right, and More is offered
Speaker 2: a deal by Doty and a colleague help us out
Speaker 2: with some odd jobs. Right, we need some like deniable
Speaker 2: work that you can do and will pass you some
Speaker 2: classified UFO information, right, Oh, I see, ye got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how that yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: The first dossier that Dodi and his friend hand over
Speaker 2: is bullshit. Like George again to some minor reporting and
Speaker 2: is able to figure this out from Bishop's book quote.
Speaker 2: After a few preliminaries, the question started, well, what did
Speaker 2: you discover? More threw the paper down on the table, and,
Speaker 2: trying to sound less annoyed than he actually was, replied,
Speaker 2: this whole mess is a lie. None of these people exist.
Speaker 2: The agent and Doti looked at each other and smiled,
Speaker 2: what's going on? Asked More, you passed the test, said
Speaker 2: the man, whom he would eventually refer to with the
Speaker 2: code name Falcon. Within a few years, More and his
Speaker 2: colleagues would begin to assign code names to their growing
Speaker 2: coterie of contacts so they could talk freely about developments
Speaker 2: without fear of identification if they were overheard. And you know,
Speaker 2: maybe this was a test. I think it's like there
Speaker 2: that they were like, okay, so he figured out this
Speaker 2: is bullshit. Let's just tell him that that was a test,
Speaker 2: and then, you know, stroke his ego. It helped believe
Speaker 2: the next thing we say maybe right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're we're in good yeap.
Speaker 3: We're finding from our side until we actually make him
Speaker 3: a believer, and he'll feel great because he's passed all
Speaker 3: these tests. So he's right, gonna start looking less and
Speaker 3: less because of how smart he believes he is.
Speaker 2: Right, and they hand him some shit and he'll admit, Like,
Speaker 2: I knew some of what I was putting out into
Speaker 2: the UFO community was bunked, but I think some of
Speaker 2: it's real too, And like he's you know, he's being
Speaker 2: a shady character here as well. Now. Unlike Paul Benowitz,
Speaker 2: George is a pretty I think a mentally resilient guy.
Speaker 2: Like he definitely is a believer to some extent, but
Speaker 2: I think he also I don't think he it takes
Speaker 2: it as seriously as Paul does. Right. I don't think
Speaker 2: this is breaking his brain. I think he's having a
Speaker 2: good time.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: My favorite story from More is that Dody and his
Speaker 2: partner apparently thought More might be gay and decided to
Speaker 2: test him by like one day when they're hanging out,
Speaker 2: they like park the car and more It's like and
Speaker 2: a bunch of men start walking past the car wearing
Speaker 2: tight pants or high heels and dresses that like fit
Speaker 2: really weird and like it doesn't seem like they would
Speaker 2: like a comfortable in And apparently this is a test
Speaker 2: because they want him to troll the gay bars of
Speaker 2: Santa Monica looking for a guy that the FOC wants
Speaker 2: for some reason.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I don't know.
Speaker 3: It was a slow day in the office when they
Speaker 3: came up with right, well, there's like, ah, well, we
Speaker 3: want to do something this weekend, right, all right.
Speaker 2: So Dody and his colleagues they get some of what
Speaker 2: they want out of more. Right, he launders some info
Speaker 2: into the UFO community, some of the dis info they
Speaker 2: want to distract from their real programs. But he's also
Speaker 2: not he's a little too smart, right, He's not willing
Speaker 2: to destroy himself publicly as much as was necessary for
Speaker 2: the kind of misinformation that they wanted to get out.
Speaker 2: And this is where Paul Benowitz re enters the story.
Speaker 2: It is obvious by eighty eighty one that this is
Speaker 2: a guy who was not well, but also he's respected,
Speaker 2: and he is a guy who, because of his tech acumen,
Speaker 2: might endanger some top secret operations. So the decision was
Speaker 2: basically made. It let's suck him up a little, right.
Speaker 2: Paul gets invited to give a speech at Kirtland and
Speaker 2: most of the attendees leave before he's done, but like
Speaker 2: one of them is like, uh, it's really interesting stuff, Paul,
Speaker 2: and that just lights his ego on fire. Paul so
Speaker 2: happy to hear this. He applies for air Force grants,
Speaker 2: which he does not receive, but he apparently gets an
Speaker 2: NSSA grant, and I think that's maybe the NSA fucking
Speaker 2: with him, because some real fuckery is about to happen here.
Speaker 1: Hey, I love an ironic grant.
Speaker 3: Ironic grant money still spends.
Speaker 2: It's a little more messed up than even that. So
Speaker 2: Dody is now spending hours with Paul Benowitz, and he
Speaker 2: claims that they became friends and that he found the
Speaker 2: orders he received to spread lies to Paul personally distasteful.
Speaker 2: If you watch the documentary Mirage Man, you'll see a
Speaker 2: lot of Dody, and he does express a degree of
Speaker 2: what kind of feels like real regret over what he
Speaker 2: did to Paul. He is also a spy and a
Speaker 2: professional liar, so I don't know that I believe he's
Speaker 2: really or he just knows that he needs to perform regret, right,
Speaker 2: I think that's probably likely. Yeah, So god, what do you.
Speaker 3: Think like the like the internal notes of a person
Speaker 3: that it constantly lies are like, is it just like
Speaker 3: a notebook? Is it like a series of post it's
Speaker 3: around their house? How do you keep that shit straight?
Speaker 3: It sounds exhausting?
Speaker 2: I don't you know. One of the things that you
Speaker 2: get when you like read these stories and like the
Speaker 2: way in which a lot of the writers and quote
Speaker 2: unquote journalists who cover this stuff, the degree of credulity
Speaker 2: they have to these guys stories. The thing that becomes
Speaker 2: clue to me is like, oh, this is your first
Speaker 2: time being lied to by a weirdo in the desert,
Speaker 2: Like I spent a lot of my childhood and like, oh,
Speaker 2: not childhood, my young adulthood and like off grid places
Speaker 2: just listening to like lies from dudes at bars and stuff.
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of crazy stories that definitely aren't true,
Speaker 2: and that's a ton of fun. But I think some
Speaker 2: of these these people just like decide they want to
Speaker 2: live as if that's real. You know that's fair? Yeah? God?
Speaker 1: How many times? How many time shares do you think
Speaker 1: they own?
Speaker 2: It feels like, oh, my god, these guys are these
Speaker 2: guys are very very vulnerable to time shares. So on
Speaker 2: some of his early visits to hang with Paul, he's
Speaker 2: shown a complex computer system doty is that Benowitz had
Speaker 2: constructed and had his employees help him build to translate
Speaker 2: these encrypted messages. Right, it's unclear what's actually happening. Is
Speaker 2: he just getting random static and then like running it
Speaker 2: through an algorithm to like create text based on that,
Speaker 2: and then kind of going through it almost like it's
Speaker 2: one of those like word puzzles and just like picking
Speaker 2: up words out of a feed of words that like
Speaker 2: and then saying like, oh, this is you know, a
Speaker 2: message from the aliens, right, because some people will say,
Speaker 2: like it looked like gibberish to me, but he would
Speaker 2: pull out, you know, five or six words from this
Speaker 2: like paragraph of nonsense and say like this is the
Speaker 2: real message, right, Yeah, And this is a quote from Dodie.
Speaker 2: Benowitz had the computer rigged up to antenna's on his
Speaker 2: roof that included a small microwave dish, and he would
Speaker 2: look at the screen and there would be images on
Speaker 2: the screen that certainly wasn't an alien. But he was
Speaker 2: convinced that it was. I would actually tell him I
Speaker 2: don't see anything, and he said, I see it, and
Speaker 2: I can hear them. And he had these earphones that
Speaker 2: he would put on and he said, I can hear
Speaker 2: them talking. And I asked, Paul, what language are they speaking?
Speaker 2: He said, they're speaking their language. And he wrote one
Speaker 2: hundred page document about the alien language. When he went
Speaker 2: out to Kirtland to give his presentation to all these generals,
Speaker 2: he presented them with that information. So the NSA, and
Speaker 2: this is probably where the NSA gets heavily involved and
Speaker 2: maybe why they give him that grant, because a plan
Speaker 2: gets hatched to gift Paul with a new computer right
Speaker 2: that he's told is a gift from a FOC. Some
Speaker 2: accounts maybe Doty offered him the machine. Other the story
Speaker 2: we'll hear more often is that an Air Force consultant
Speaker 2: named doctor j Allen Heinek, who's a former scientific advisor
Speaker 2: for Project Blue Book and a big guy in the
Speaker 2: alien community. Now I think he denies this, but you'll
Speaker 2: hear that too. We don't really know exactly what happened here,
Speaker 2: because I've also heard like the NSA did it. I've
Speaker 2: heard that the Air Force did it. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Adam go Writely notes this computer had been provided at
Speaker 2: the behest of the US Air Force, and embedded in
Speaker 2: the software was a code that generated an alien language.
Speaker 2: With the aid of the Air Force computer, Benowitz claimed
Speaker 2: he established constant direct communications with the alien using a
Speaker 2: form of hex decimal code with graphics and print out. Now, man,
Speaker 2: so what's happening here? Probably is that because some versions
Speaker 2: of the story say that the NSA was literally set
Speaker 2: up across the street in a rented house, sending messages
Speaker 2: directly to Paul's computer, I think it's maybe a little
Speaker 2: less direct than that. But basically, he's got this machine
Speaker 2: that's probably programmed to allow them to send him fake
Speaker 2: messages from aliens, and so he starts getting messages like
Speaker 2: this ground Ground, Women of Earth are needed, flexible. The
Speaker 2: next just charges our ship. Women do not command the
Speaker 2: north among us. You have many friends, water very short,
Speaker 2: resist all attempts at alteration. Listen, Orange, make peace. And
Speaker 2: Paul doesn't know what to make of this. He becomes convinced,
Speaker 2: actually that this is the aliens trying to trick him
Speaker 2: into thinking that they're peaceful, but he knows they're really dangerous.
Speaker 1: He's so close. He's getting there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's getting there. Yeah. Greg Valdez, whose Gabe's son,
Speaker 2: visited Minowitz during this period and he described seeing the
Speaker 2: computer in use. He would type a question into the
Speaker 2: computer into in a very complex for the time period
Speaker 2: form of a computer program, much like a current email.
Speaker 2: Much whoever went surprised he would get an answer to
Speaker 2: the questions he was asking. Sometimes he would get an
Speaker 2: immediate response, and sometimes it would take several minutes. He
Speaker 2: would even receive very crude and basic pictures or graphics
Speaker 2: on his computer of these aliens. Some of these pictures
Speaker 2: resembled birds with reptile features, and some resembled reptiles with
Speaker 2: bird features. During this question and answer session, Gabe instructed
Speaker 2: Paul to ask the simple question where are you from?
Speaker 2: Paul already knew the answer to the question because he
Speaker 2: had already asked the question, and he answered it verbally.
Speaker 2: When a response came back on the computer, it simply
Speaker 2: said the zeta reticulized star system. So they're now really
Speaker 2: fucking with this guy in a way that's very irresponsible.
Speaker 3: I mean, who I want to know who was writing
Speaker 3: this stuff, because that's the best job on the base.
Speaker 2: That's right, maybe, Doty, it's probably a team of guy's right, Dody.
Speaker 2: There's there's, you know, some evidence he was working with
Speaker 2: the NSA, So maybe it's multiple. It's almost certainly multiple
Speaker 2: people feeding him bullshit. Yeah, but yeah, the result is
Speaker 2: that Paul grows convinced that the US government has signed
Speaker 2: a treaty with aliens, perhaps to breed some sort of hybrids,
Speaker 2: and they've been given real estate in an underground base
Speaker 2: near Dulce, New Mexico. This paid played the happy dual
Speaker 2: role of covering up ongoing weird experiments around Dulce. You know,
Speaker 2: there's that poison gas fucking hole, and diverting the attention
Speaker 2: of Paul and others away from Kirtland Air Force Base
Speaker 2: and towards somewhere less harmful, right for theirin Yeah you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, during his communications with the ETS, Paul became convinced
Speaker 2: that there was a secret war going on. Dozens of
Speaker 2: base security and Dulce had been murdered by the aliens
Speaker 2: and a gunfight. He wrote up plans to lay siege
Speaker 2: to Dulce Base and began working to develop a sort
Speaker 2: of beam weapon that could kill aliens.
Speaker 1: Now, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now we're making beam weapons. How about it?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he was like, I better hope the aliens
Speaker 3: don't have aluminum foil.
Speaker 2: Listen, folks, if you if you have a friend who's
Speaker 2: making beam weapons to fight the underground aliens. I actually
Speaker 2: don't know how you should handle that situation, but probably
Speaker 2: don't give him a computer that lies to him.
Speaker 1: I think you got to sign him up for bowling
Speaker 1: league or something.
Speaker 2: I get him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get some more.
Speaker 2: Social tapping maybe, yeah.
Speaker 1: That social schedule a little bit, you know, and see if.
Speaker 2: He wants to play D and D. Maybe his imagination
Speaker 2: needs a little bit of a workout, you know, that.
Speaker 1: Would be great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now I have a lot of This sounds
Speaker 2: like the overarching conspiracy plot for the first like five
Speaker 2: seasons of the X Files. That's because this is almost
Speaker 2: certainly the direct inspiration for a lot of the X Files, right, Like,
Speaker 2: this is, in fact, because this is all happening in
Speaker 2: the eighties, not long before the X File starts, right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So Benowitz, as he's communicating with these aliens, he's gathering
Speaker 2: information on this secret underground bass and this war he
Speaker 2: believes is going on underneath everyone's noses. He's sending back everything.
Speaker 2: He's getting the special agent, Dody, his good friend, and
Speaker 2: Dody dutifully forwards this up the chain and encourages Paul.
Speaker 2: Keep digging. You know, you're getting close. He's doing the
Speaker 2: deep throat thing, right. He's like, yeah, keep gigging, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so close, you're going to get there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He's telling him that the aliens at Dulce
Speaker 2: Base had been responsible for what he'd seen over Kirtland.
Speaker 2: And he does this because he's like, oh yeah, man,
Speaker 2: you know what, I ran it up the flagpole and
Speaker 2: those that underground base. That's why you were seeing those
Speaker 2: weird lights. Don't look near the air Force base. Keep
Speaker 2: hanging out around Dulce, you know, that's where the shit's
Speaker 2: going on, right, yeah, go rightly claims. The ultimate intent
Speaker 2: of stringing Benowitz along, according to researchers like Greg Bishop
Speaker 2: and Christian Lambright, was to shift Benowitz's attention away from
Speaker 2: Kirkland to a remote area like the Archuleta Mesa your Dulce,
Speaker 2: where AFOSI could ramp up their disinformation operation and more
Speaker 2: easily stage UFO events. Speaking of stage, you know, what's
Speaker 2: not staged is the reliability of our sponsors. That's completely legitimate.
Speaker 2: You know, don't even question it, don't think about it.
Speaker 2: Hand over your credit card information, text it to me,
Speaker 2: I'll buy stuff for you, and we're back. Okay. So,
Speaker 2: near the end of nineteen eighty one, Richard Dody convinces
Speaker 2: his superiors to let him take Paul in a special
Speaker 2: helicopter flight around the Archuleta Mesa since Paul is a pilot,
Speaker 2: and they see some stuff. You know, there's some and
Speaker 2: apparently Dodi claims that he and other agents put out
Speaker 2: props right to look like air vins for the secret
Speaker 2: underground base and other evidence. Right, this is so crazy.
Speaker 3: And now there's an art director. Yeah, yeah, there's an
Speaker 3: art director.
Speaker 1: Production production.
Speaker 3: There's production meetings about like what to do to this
Speaker 3: poor man, Like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're having pitches and stuff yellow pitch meetings on
Speaker 2: fucking with this guy. There's a there's a prop team now, yes,
Speaker 2: oh no, so because Paul's a pilot. After this first trip,
Speaker 2: he follows this by doing his own recon flights over
Speaker 2: the area, and he gets very obsessed with this, and
Speaker 2: I have some questions. I don't know if I believe
Speaker 2: Dody entirely that like he's being handed all of the
Speaker 2: men in equipment necess to carry out a staged operation
Speaker 2: on the scale he describes. But also it's possible and
Speaker 2: in fact, maybe likely, Paul is sometimes seeing some real stuff,
Speaker 2: Like he reports seeing what he describes as a crashed
Speaker 2: Delta wing aircraft and in this area at this time,
Speaker 2: they're working on prototypes of the Stealth Bomber, which is
Speaker 2: a looks like that, and in fact Greg Bishop's project Beta,
Speaker 2: Like that's his basic conclusion is that like Paul might
Speaker 2: have seen like some of the testing stages of the
Speaker 2: prototype of like the stealth bomber, right, and maybe that
Speaker 2: was like part of what Dodie was doing was if
Speaker 2: we get this guy to talk about if we show
Speaker 2: if we let this guy see a little bit of
Speaker 2: the real stealth bomber program but convince them it's aliens,
Speaker 2: then anybody who's talking about like a Delta wing aircraft,
Speaker 2: right will be like, oh, you're just talking about a UFO,
Speaker 2: not this actual thing that we're working on.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, exactly, Let's get everybody off the scent once again.
Speaker 2: So maybe that's what's happening, or maybe it was just
Speaker 2: an easy thing to make look like a plane from
Speaker 2: the air shit like this. They do this in World
Speaker 2: War Two. A bunch we do it, and actually the
Speaker 2: Nazis do it too, where you're like make basically fake
Speaker 2: out of like wooden shit and spray paint tanks and
Speaker 2: stuff so people think there's an army where it isn't right,
Speaker 2: so oh it's not.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or I'm from in Maryland.
Speaker 3: There's a fake cop car on, like one on the highway.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is up just to slow you down?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that shit. Now. There are other claims
Speaker 2: about what happened to Paul and his wife during this
Speaker 2: period that are more questionable. One rite up I found
Speaker 2: by the Cyberthetic project claims that Paul and his wife
Speaker 2: developed red sores or perhaps some sort of rashes on
Speaker 2: their body. I've seen that a few times. The cyber
Speaker 2: Athetic Project describes itself as a token project with a
Speaker 2: mission to unite holder so that they can communicate in
Speaker 2: an open forum on the blockchain without fear of being
Speaker 2: judged or censored. So you'd be right about questioning it.
Speaker 2: As a source that said, this is all a lot
Speaker 2: of fun. So I'm going to quote from it anyway,
Speaker 2: just you know, a lot of salt here. It has
Speaker 2: since been revealed that the NSA was in possession of
Speaker 2: sensitive documents concerning advanced technologies such as active denial systems
Speaker 2: and active denial technology. These technologies were apparently being developed
Speaker 2: by Sandia Labs and Kirk Glenn Air Force Base with
Speaker 2: the aim of producing a non lethal weapon that could
Speaker 2: be used against enemies. Were they using this technology on
Speaker 2: the Benowitz family? The answer to that is also unclear.
Speaker 2: What is clear is that Paul and his wife were
Speaker 2: being physically impacted by his research into UFOs, And that's
Speaker 2: maybe not like I don't I think probably likelier than
Speaker 2: some sort of weird beam weapon is that Paul is
Speaker 2: losing his mind and he and his wife are both
Speaker 2: very stressed out by this, yeah, and convinced that they're
Speaker 2: being targeted by aliens, and they have like shingles, a
Speaker 2: stress rash, something like all sorts of shit, you know.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it feels like they probably would have broken
Speaker 3: out in some sort of like, yeah, stress rash of
Speaker 3: some kind, like, yes, that's fair.
Speaker 1: I have several friends from the California fires.
Speaker 3: That had them a week go right, right, Imagine prolonged
Speaker 3: experience to potential aliens for years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to right, I don't think that that's
Speaker 2: it's at all unlikely that something like that is the
Speaker 2: case here. And yeah, So as he grew more obsessed
Speaker 2: with seeking out the truth, Paul's business declined, which is
Speaker 2: another reason why maybe he's dealing with some stress related problems.
Speaker 2: Ninety more office manager. Oh my god, I just need
Speaker 2: you just sign Paul. We just really need to make
Speaker 2: this censor man, could we? Okay, you've got the whole
Speaker 2: team working on translating alien speech. All right, well, I'm
Speaker 2: going to maybe print down some resumes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy eight, Thunder Scientific had thirty employees. By
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one that the number was down by almost half.
Speaker 2: There were He starts hiding like guns and knives around
Speaker 2: his home as the nineteen eighties wore on, because he's
Speaker 2: just incredibly paranoid now, and he continues to attend UFO
Speaker 2: events throughout the mid to late nineteen eighties. His yarn
Speaker 2: about dulc, a base which was almost certainly invented or
Speaker 2: at least heavily egged on by Richard Dodi, had been
Speaker 2: a magnificent success. In nineteen eighty seven, John Lear, a
Speaker 2: prominent ufologist, stated that he had independently confirmed elements of
Speaker 2: Benowitz's story right that there's this underground base at a Dulce.
Speaker 2: Several books in the late nineteen eighties published their own
Speaker 2: variants of the story, which helped to spark a paranoid
Speaker 2: belief and secret underground alien bases that is still a
Speaker 2: significant part of qan on today. Like a lot of
Speaker 2: QAnon guys believe that there's a base under the Getty
Speaker 2: and Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: That's why I didn't barn.
Speaker 2: That's why I didn't burn. They kept it safe. That's
Speaker 2: where they keep the kids. Ye center Villa. I think
Speaker 2: it's the center either way, do a pizza gate at
Speaker 2: both places? Sophy, You know what, No, that didn't end
Speaker 2: well for that guy. There's a lot that's sad about this.
Speaker 2: But one of the worst things is that Paul had
Speaker 2: almost certainly stumbled upon a very real and y reimportant
Speaker 2: conspiracy at Kirtland see today. Kirtland Air Force Base is
Speaker 2: a major testing site for advanced drone technology, including weapons,
Speaker 2: systems to defeat drone swarms, and other experimental tech. We
Speaker 2: know that in nineteen eighty a black mystery vehicle was
Speaker 2: spotted at the base. This is right around the same
Speaker 2: time Paul is making his initial reports. So he's going
Speaker 2: to show you a picture of this mystery vehicle that
Speaker 2: is being tested at Kirkland Air Force Base when Paul
Speaker 2: is observing shit, right, it looks kind of like an
Speaker 2: SR seventy one, but it's like a drone version almost.
Speaker 2: This was apparently what now we know this was called
Speaker 2: at the time td a tdux toe target. A right
Speaker 2: up in the war zone describes it as a high
Speaker 2: speed towed aerial target to support the testing of infrared
Speaker 2: and electronic countermeasures or IRCM and ECM, respectively. Something like
Speaker 2: this would both look very weird in the sky and
Speaker 2: also might put off some of the signals that Paul was,
Speaker 2: you know, receiving right now. I don't know if this
Speaker 2: is what he saw was other stuff, because other shit
Speaker 2: is being tested at Kirtland, including precursors to our modern
Speaker 2: drone program. Right, Paul very likely came across evidence of
Speaker 2: the development of unmanned weapons systems that have gone on
Speaker 2: to kill huge numbers of people. No aliens need to
Speaker 2: be involved at all, for this to both make sense
Speaker 2: and be a real conspiracy theory. It's also very likely
Speaker 2: Duty wasn't fully in the loop as to what was
Speaker 2: being developed there, because he wouldn't need to be, and
Speaker 2: in fact, the more he believed the bullshit he was
Speaker 2: pushing on Paul, the safer the real secrets were. In
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, Yep, yep, cool stuff. The drone program.
Speaker 2: It always comes back to that.
Speaker 3: Hooray, so exciting. But they make pretty firework alternatives.
Speaker 1: It's fine, it's all good stuff. Yeah, don't worry. If
Speaker 1: they can inform Steve Harvey in the sky.
Speaker 2: Yeah they can see. It's fine. They should have done that.
Speaker 1: That what the aliens love. Steve Harvey.
Speaker 2: Paul Benowitz went to the Air Force. I keep seeing
Speaker 2: Steve Harvey's face in the night sky. I don't know
Speaker 2: what's going on. In nineteen eighty eight, Paul published plans
Speaker 2: for an assault on Dulce Base, which he'd become convinced
Speaker 2: was the nexus of an alien plan to control the world.
Speaker 2: That same year, he became convinced that his wife was
Speaker 2: working with the aliens, or perhaps in control of the
Speaker 2: entire alien conspiracy. Correctly, wife, Yeah, she's really putting she's
Speaker 2: really going through it here and in this passage from
Speaker 2: go Wrightley's book, which is based on interviews with Bill
Speaker 2: Moore and Richard Dody, he describes a profoundly ill man.
Speaker 2: Both Bill Moore and Richard Dody, on separate occasions, witnessed
Speaker 2: first hand Benowitz's mounting paranoia, describing him as spun out
Speaker 2: and barricaded inside his homes, chainsmoking cigarettes, waiting in fevered
Speaker 2: anticipation for the final et showdown. In Project Beta, Greg
Speaker 2: Bishop recounted Benowitz told More that after the aliens injected him,
Speaker 2: they would make him drive his car into the desert
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. He couldn't remember what
Speaker 2: he did after he got there. Around this time, Benowitz's
Speaker 2: family committed him to a mental health facility for nervous exhaustion.
Speaker 2: Oh man, you will sometimes hear it arrantly stated that
Speaker 2: he commits suicide as a result of this. He does not.
Speaker 2: This thankfully doesn't have as sad a story as it might.
Speaker 2: Paul gets out after about a month, and he seems
Speaker 2: to have pulled himself out of the UFO community. After
Speaker 2: this point, he and his wife stay together. They're married
Speaker 2: more than fifty years and he lives until two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, so you know, kind of a happy ending.
Speaker 2: But boy, it didn't it almost wasn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for real, man, I also shout out to the
Speaker 3: place he was committed.
Speaker 1: Apparently they did the job. Yeah, that's a serious deprogramming man.
Speaker 2: You gotta stop, you gotta stop. In the computer the
Speaker 2: NSA gave you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a computer man.
Speaker 3: Man some four door just cracked all over their knuckles
Speaker 3: and he said, all right, let's get into.
Speaker 2: It, Paul. We need to have a long conversation about
Speaker 2: things that are real and things that aren't.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 2: Richard Dody would eventually retire from the Air Force and
Speaker 2: spend much of his retirement and golden years doing the
Speaker 2: UFO convention circuit he came. He will say that he
Speaker 2: was hired to consult on two seasons of The X Files,
Speaker 2: and that he wrote the screenplay for an episode. He's
Speaker 2: not credited as the writer for that episode, but you know,
Speaker 2: his stuff definitely helps inspire the X Files, right like
Speaker 2: he is, he is for sure involved in what becomes
Speaker 2: the X Files purely because of like his role in
Speaker 2: UFO culture.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he wrote a script, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure he wrote a script.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people have written scripts, and he is.
Speaker 2: He's a member of a couple of different organizations. Now,
Speaker 2: he's a very controversial figure within the UFO community because
Speaker 2: he both definitely worked for Air Force Intelligence and tells
Speaker 2: a lot of stories about seeing aliens. He claims you
Speaker 2: have literally seen them, and also admits that he lied
Speaker 2: about aliens for years to a guy who nearly lost
Speaker 2: his mind forever. I wouldn't trust him. But for an
Speaker 2: idea of how Richard Dorty presents himself, now, here's a
Speaker 2: clip from him on the New Realities YouTube channel being
Speaker 2: interviewed by a UFO ology author named Ellen Steinfield.
Speaker 6: I mean, you're no longer working for the Air Force Intelligence, right.
Speaker 2: But right, that's right.
Speaker 5: I don't work for Air Force Intelligence.
Speaker 6: Well, don't be offended by this question. But how do
Speaker 6: we know you're still not working for them? And you're
Speaker 6: just saying you're not working for them.
Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of controversy over that. But number one,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have any reason to I'm I left the agency,
Speaker 5: left the intelligence agency back in nineteen eighty. Although I
Speaker 5: people bring up the fact that I was brought back
Speaker 5: to active service in ninety one and ninety three. But
Speaker 5: that had nothing to do with UFOs or disinformation. It
Speaker 5: had to do with what I did in Europe when
Speaker 5: after the Wall fell. So I work as a private investigator.
Speaker 5: I have no connections official connections with the United States
Speaker 5: government or intelligence community. I do have a lot of
Speaker 5: friends that still work within the intelligence community, and they
Speaker 5: feed me a lot of information that I share with you.
Speaker 5: I mean I shared it with you at the UFO MegaCon.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I mean I think he's still and
Speaker 2: they I even found an interview where he's like talked about,
Speaker 2: like he's asked about, like because Tom DeLong of Blink
Speaker 2: one eighty two is a big guy and is involved
Speaker 2: with Dotie in one of the organizations he's in, and
Speaker 2: one of the interviews is like, are you doing a
Speaker 2: Paul Benowitz to Tom DeLong. He's like, A, of course not.
Speaker 2: I would never.
Speaker 1: I absolutely would never.
Speaker 2: I think he might be doing a Paul Benowitz on
Speaker 2: a couple of guys. Maybe that's just fun for him. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It reminds me of what's the.
Speaker 3: Uh in the Tanya Hardy in the Assault of Nancy
Speaker 3: Kerrigan Hardy. Yeah, yeah, Galuuly and yeah, yeah, yeah, idiot friend,
Speaker 3: the amount bullshit that they just believe about themselves and
Speaker 3: talking about like yeah, like the other guy Eckert, he
Speaker 3: like talked about how he like was a Special Forces
Speaker 3: guy and had all this ship made.
Speaker 1: You're like, damn you believe this though.
Speaker 2: I've heard so many fun lies about being Special Forces
Speaker 2: from dudes, like especially out in like the mountains, Like
Speaker 2: every old man you meet who like will tell you
Speaker 2: about all of the crazy shit he did in Vietnam,
Speaker 2: and it's it's just always it's always nonsense, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know a guy we're in the little mountaintown where
Speaker 2: I used to live who was a Seal team member
Speaker 2: during Vietnam, and his reaction is very different, which was
Speaker 2: like he handed me a book that was written about
Speaker 2: like him and his colleagues and was like, you want
Speaker 2: to know anything, just read that. I don't like talking
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you've actually done any of this stuff, like
Speaker 3: it's it's not what it's it's not the movies.
Speaker 2: But it's kind of a bad time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a lot to answer.
Speaker 2: For and process didn't like it. Not not happy with
Speaker 2: how that all went.
Speaker 3: No, No, not worth the free beer to talk about
Speaker 3: Joe really.
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, anyway, well that's the aliens or not. But
Speaker 2: maybe there's aliens. I don't know. This is not conclusive
Speaker 2: on that matter one way or the other. But there's
Speaker 2: definitely a bunch of spy agencies who will light to
Speaker 2: you and destroy your brain if they think it will
Speaker 2: help them hide the fact that they're making some fucked
Speaker 2: up shit to kill people in other countries.
Speaker 3: Of course, maybe the alien is inside of you, listener.
Speaker 3: The entire time, the.
Speaker 2: Real alien was always the military industrial complex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, because you know, to find what an alien is,
Speaker 3: it's something that works against like the good of humanity.
Speaker 1: Then in that case, the government is run by aliens.
Speaker 3: I don't know who knows, who knows what's out there
Speaker 3: or in here?
Speaker 1: Apparently?
Speaker 4: Yeah, but what is out there and what is in here?
Speaker 1: Are your pluggables? Brandy Bam what transition? Thanks Sophie. Yeah
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 3: You can find me online at Brand Dazzle on all
Speaker 3: of the platforms, including the new ones and the old ones.
Speaker 1: My podcast is called Lady.
Speaker 3: The Lady comes out every Wednesday and has been around
Speaker 3: for thirteen years. Burn this Record is my comedy label
Speaker 3: that I run where I put out amazing comedy albums
Speaker 3: and people all over the country that are.
Speaker 1: Very funny and also good people.
Speaker 3: And then I have my own album coming out on
Speaker 3: that label at the in the middle of.
Speaker 1: March, and I would love for you to buy it.
Speaker 1: That'd be amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Brandy Posey dot com has all the information for
Speaker 3: all of the things. But yeah, come say hi. I
Speaker 3: if you're a fan of the show, you like me,
Speaker 3: I promise, so come on, all.
Speaker 2: Right, everybody, Well that's the episode until next time again, folks,
Speaker 2: I say this every time. Head to Kurtland air Force Face.
Speaker 2: Get a camera out and just start filming and go
Speaker 2: slowly insane, get a pilot's license, fly over some random
Speaker 2: you know, just just do some shit. You know, why not?
Speaker 1: Nothing bad could happen.
Speaker 2: Let's go into hell in a handbasket. You might as
Speaker 2: well lose your mind about some alien shit.
Speaker 3: If you want to test your relationship, go down an
Speaker 3: alien hole.
Speaker 2: See if your wife really loves you. You know, this
Speaker 2: is the only way to know. It's the only way
Speaker 2: to know.
Speaker 8: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 1: You get your podcasts.
Speaker 8: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes
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