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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, welcome back to behind the Bastards. All of

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Speaker 2: you beautiful people and also all of you ugly people.

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Speaker 2: You know, all all people are beautiful, except for I

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Speaker 2: just kind of said that. I didn't that they're.

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Speaker 1: Not that inside and outside beauty.

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Speaker 2: You know, Well, there's only one kind. There's only one kind.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to say what it is. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to say which kind of beauty, but there's only

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Speaker 2: one kind. Yeah, it's elbows. I'm an elbow guy. I'm

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Speaker 2: an elbow guy. Yeah, I'm starting the wiki feet of elbows.

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Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of like really blurry cropped photos

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Speaker 2: of like elbows of different celebrities.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you know there's no nerve endings

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Speaker 1: in your elbow skin?

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Speaker 2: That's the hottest thing about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an elbow guy and a friend in my

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Speaker 1: Comparative Religions class that discovered weed and will make everybody

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Speaker 1: bite his elbows the beginning of every class.

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Speaker 2: And oh that that's a pervert. That's a par Oh

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Speaker 2: that's an elbow pervert right there.

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Speaker 3: Well, currently he's a born again meteorologist in North Carolina.

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Speaker 3: So yes, that is a pervert.

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Speaker 2: No, I can see why you're be scared that God

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Speaker 2: is angry at you if you're that kind of pervert,

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Speaker 2: Because he is, but that that makes it hotter for

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Speaker 2: a lot of us. Brandy Posy, welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 2: You want to plug anything at the top before we

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Speaker 2: get too deep into elbows?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, before we get elbow deep.

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Speaker 2: Bowen, bowen with Robert and Brandy getting a damn Mayby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I run a comedy record label. It's called Burn

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Speaker 3: This Record. We seekul to create like equity between our

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Speaker 3: artists in a way that most comedy labels don't. I

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Speaker 3: have put out seventeen albums. Last year was our first year.

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Speaker 3: This year we have about fifteen.

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Speaker 1: It's digital only. And everybody is.

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Speaker 3: Funny but a good person, which is a ven diagram

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Speaker 3: that I wish more people in comedy paid attention.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well I think that's awesome. Uh So check that

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Speaker 2: out everybody, and uh let's let's get Are you ready

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Speaker 2: to get back into this story, into these aliens and spooks? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: speaking of bows, Richard Dody probably doesn't have nice elbows.

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Speaker 2: He's our Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

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Speaker 4: When you said, I was like, are we talking for

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Speaker 4: your hair?

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Speaker 1: Are we talking? Are we talking speakers? Are we talking?

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Speaker 1: There's so many bows? Does he have no bows? No? No,

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Speaker 1: no partners, what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: You know what? Speaking of bows? I will let pee.

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Speaker 2: This is just yesterday I wound up just because of

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Speaker 2: it happened as I was driving, like responding to a

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Speaker 2: three car crash, and there was a young woman in

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Speaker 2: the middle car who was the only one who was hurt.

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Speaker 2: And she was hurt because she had a beret in

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Speaker 2: like the back.

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Speaker 4: Of her for for claw yeah, which is a no go.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, don't wear those in the car a car.

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Speaker 1: Do your hairs, bringing.

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Speaker 4: Your claw clip in the car, but do not wear

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Speaker 4: it while you're while you're in the car, because it would.

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Speaker 1: You bad bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 3: I have a friend that is her sister's an ear nurse,

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Speaker 3: and when she gets in her car, her whole back

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Speaker 3: seat is full of those claws because when it gets

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Speaker 3: in her car and she throws it, she just takes

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Speaker 3: it out in the back seat because the number one

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Speaker 3: thing that she sees and hear her r room is

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Speaker 3: that in women's skulls from the car accidents.

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Speaker 2: So thankfully, this lady seemed fine, I do like.

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Speaker 4: You're saying barett the way you said it so surgical.

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Speaker 2: I thought that's what it was called. I thought that's

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Speaker 2: what it was.

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Speaker 1: You're not wrong, but you're also wrong anyway.

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Speaker 2: Don't don't wear those. And also, if you're ever in

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Speaker 2: a car accident and your head is hurt in any way,

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Speaker 2: shape or form, go get checked out by a professional.

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Speaker 2: Don't just assume it's okay. You don't want to wind

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Speaker 2: up like that famous guy's wife. No. Yeah, one brain

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Speaker 2: saying that to be wasn't saying that to be flippant.

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Speaker 2: It's a real problem. Yes, go to the doctor. So

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Speaker 2: let's talk about fucking UFOs and a guy who didn't

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Speaker 2: go to the doctor. Maybe enough, or maybe went too much.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Richard Doty was born sometime around the

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Speaker 2: immediate post war period. He is. I haven't actually run

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Speaker 2: into his exact and that said, I didn't like go

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Speaker 2: super hardcore digging into it. His father and his uncle,

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Speaker 2: Edward were his chief influences growing up, and both were

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Speaker 2: military men. This guy is kind of, you know, an

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Speaker 2: I think, a like mid boomer something like that. And

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Speaker 2: his uncle Edward had been a career officer and meteorologist.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen forty seven, he'd been made chief of an

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Speaker 2: Air Force weather research station working on something called the

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Speaker 2: Atmospheric Divergence Project. Now, decades later, because Richard dody is

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Speaker 2: not just the guy who's going to like spread a

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Speaker 2: bunch of lies to Paul Benowitz that helps drive him mad,

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Speaker 2: he also becomes like an alien influencer, claiming that like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, I actually did also see real aliens, guys,

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Speaker 2: and you can totally trust me. I know that. Like

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Speaker 2: my whole thing is, I lied to a guy about

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Speaker 2: aliens for years, but also you can trust me when

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Speaker 2: I tell you about aliens that I saw.

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Speaker 1: Ye, yeah, yeah, I lied because I also tell the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yes, how exactly exactly now that I'm out, you can

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Speaker 2: trust me. So Richard Dodie, the spook and liar kind

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Speaker 2: of guy has in kind of modern interviews, tells viewers

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Speaker 2: that the atmospheric divergence project his uncle worked on was

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Speaker 2: an attempt to quote change or neutralize gravity around a

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Speaker 2: rocket to aid in space travel. Now, I haven't found

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Speaker 2: the exact details and the specific project his uncle worked on,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think this is true because while I

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Speaker 2: did not find the reports on that project. I did

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Speaker 2: spend way too much of my research time reading through

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Speaker 2: an Air Force handbook on meteorological techniques and atmospheric divergence

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Speaker 2: impacts the growth of systems in a bunch of ways

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Speaker 2: that are obviously relevant to an Air Force meteorologist and

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Speaker 2: not at all involved with fucking up gravity for space travel. Right,

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Speaker 2: this sounds like a normal meteorologist thing to do. Richard

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Speaker 2: is a tall tail spinner, right, yes, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And one of the issues with my sources because the

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Speaker 2: two of them, I've got a bunch of articles in

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Speaker 2: here that you can you can find. But there's also

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Speaker 2: two books that I read for this. One is Saucerged,

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Speaker 2: Spooks and Kooks by Adam go Rightly and one is

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Speaker 2: Project Beta by Greg Bishop. Both of them are very entertaining.

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Speaker 2: I think Greg's book, Project Beta is the better book.

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Speaker 2: Both of these guys also believe in stuff I don't

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Speaker 2: particularly Bishop, while I think he because I've caught there's

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Speaker 2: some stuff in go Rightley's book that I caught that's

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Speaker 2: just not factually just slips out that he slipped up on.

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Speaker 2: I think Bishop is more familiar with the subculture. But

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Speaker 2: also Bishop definitely believes a bunch of shit. I don't.

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Speaker 2: And he's you can tell he kind of is excited

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Speaker 2: at like talking with these spooks and spies, and I

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Speaker 2: think he gives them a lot more credit than he

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Speaker 2: ought to.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, and he's caught up on the romance of

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Speaker 1: it all. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think he is not in a way that I

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Speaker 2: think makes his basic conclusions wrong or his book not

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Speaker 2: worth reading. Again, I think it's actually quite worth reading.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a good book, and I think he's a

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Speaker 2: good writer. I just don't I'm not sympatico with him

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Speaker 2: on all of the conclusions he comes to about these guys.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean that as an insult to the man,

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Speaker 2: because again I liked his book a lot so, but

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Speaker 2: that is an issue when it comes to like trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out shit here right, and in Project Beta,

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Speaker 2: Bishop does do about like the best of any of

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Speaker 2: them at kind of questioning Dody by saying, perhaps this

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Speaker 2: had something to do with weather control, or maybe it

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Speaker 2: was something more prosaic, and like it didn't. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: rather control their gravity. It was just studying how this

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Speaker 2: thing that affects meteorological forecasts work. Very normal thing for

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Speaker 2: a meteorologists to do anyway, Doty joined the Air Force

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Speaker 2: as a young man, just like his Paul and uncle

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Speaker 2: and per Bishop. He entered in nineteen sixty eight as

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Speaker 2: a combat security policeman. Dody would later claim he was

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Speaker 2: quote tested and tracked throughout his career to become a

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Speaker 2: base security guard and then a special agent for FOC,

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Speaker 2: the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Now that's how

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Speaker 2: Dody tells the story, and I don't think he's I don't.

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Speaker 2: I think that's very silly because I'm not an expert

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Speaker 2: on this, but I've known a number of people who

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Speaker 2: were in different military intelligence roles, and I will tell

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Speaker 2: you one thing that is very consistent. Base security guard

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Speaker 2: is not a job that you are scouted for your

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Speaker 2: entire career, right, Like it's kind of a shit gig actually,

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Speaker 2: Like nobody likes base security and it's not really what

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Speaker 2: most kids join wanting to do with their lives, right.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, it's a cast step above base janitor. But

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Speaker 3: like also the same kind of Yeah, I'm not a

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Speaker 3: smirch either job necessarily, but also like you're not security.

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Speaker 2: I'll smirch it some. I'm smirching a little here.

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Speaker 1: Just a scooch of smirch.

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Speaker 2: We'll take it, yeah, yeah, yeah, And Dotie really wants

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Speaker 2: people to believe that he was like he was scouted

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Speaker 2: by the Air Force because like, we need to go

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Speaker 2: we can trust to do security for our very secret,

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Speaker 2: very real alien projects, and like wow, we we noted

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Speaker 2: from the beginning of his time in the Air Force

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Speaker 2: that he had something special, right, And that's the way

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Speaker 2: he talks about his backgrounds.

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Speaker 1: Very observative report but with aliens.

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Speaker 2: Says yes, yes, and you know, a FOC is more

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Speaker 2: prestigious than base security. He eventually does, you know, he's

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Speaker 2: a special agent. He's a sergeant, but he's also a

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Speaker 2: special agent for this and that is like a more

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Speaker 2: prestigious role. But also his job with an a FOCY

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Speaker 2: isn't the most prestigious thing because other members of that

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Speaker 2: agency are literally this is like the time that he's

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Speaker 2: in is one of like the high points for like

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Speaker 2: spy shit anywhere in the WORL like history. Right, other

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Speaker 2: guys and a FOC are locked in life and death

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Speaker 2: spy battles with like fucking got some of the best

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Speaker 2: spies on planet Earth, right, you know you've got the

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Speaker 2: foreign you know, Russian and Chinese agents. Like there's there's

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Speaker 2: some really interesting shit going on here. Dodie's job during

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Speaker 2: this like great international game is to light of people

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Speaker 2: who believe they'd been molested by Martians. So he doesn't

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Speaker 2: have the sexiest job within this sort of field, right.

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Speaker 3: Not quite espionage James Bond.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are some guys in a foc doing

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Speaker 2: some really like you talk about the ethics of it,

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Speaker 2: but like interesting spy shit. He's I mean, it is interesting,

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Speaker 2: but not in the same way I'd like to see

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Speaker 2: his Bond movie though I would like for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this, this low rent Bond is definitely a movie

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Speaker 3: that I'd be into.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of the premise of the Slow Horses TV show, right,

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Speaker 2: which which does have one the commissioner Gordon's in it,

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Speaker 2: and he's great. Yeah, hey the show. I have mixed

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Speaker 2: opinions on it, but he's always always a charm. The originals, well,

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Speaker 2: not the original, the one from the Nolan movies. I

218
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Speaker 2: forget his name, Gary Oldman. So Doty today claims that

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Speaker 2: right after basic training, and again this is also bullshit,

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Speaker 2: he was taken to a room and shown footage of

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Speaker 2: UFOs and like I don't believe that if there are

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Speaker 2: aliens that the government has evidence of, obviously there's some

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Speaker 2: people that they led into that secret within military intelligence.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to be anyone who just finished basic

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Speaker 2: because you know who can finish basic training almost anyone.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, hey, eighteen year old, about a frontal lobe

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Speaker 3: that is fully firmed.

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Speaker 1: You want to see aliens right now?

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Speaker 3: Like unless when't fuck with you specifically, maybe, but like

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Speaker 3: not a like an official constructive capacity for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, guy whose primary hobby is getting blackout drunk

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Speaker 2: every single night of the week, Let's let's show you

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Speaker 2: an alien video.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: In all those push ups you did, Guess what, here's

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Speaker 3: also aliens.

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Speaker 1: You passed the test.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, this is generally described as a test, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's how like Bishop describes it in his book,

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Speaker 2: is that Doty is being tested to see who, or

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Speaker 2: at least Dotie claims he was being tested to see,

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Speaker 2: you know, if he could be trusted with more detailed

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Speaker 2: info about extraterrestrials. So I guess there's a possibility that

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Speaker 2: maybe something like this did happen and it wasn't real aliens,

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Speaker 2: but it was just like let's show a bunch of

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Speaker 2: guys alien footage and like, see who leaks it? Right

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Speaker 2: that they saw something? You know, see who we can trust? Stuff?

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Speaker 2: Like I don't think even then, I kind of doubt

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Speaker 2: it because they weren't really doing that to guys who

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Speaker 2: just finished Basic. But shit like that is happening within

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Speaker 2: different kind of intelligence agencies, and it's not just aliens

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Speaker 2: they lie about. The disinfo is given out to people

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Speaker 2: during this period of time in different intel roles just

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Speaker 2: to see if they can be trusted, right, Like, that's

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Speaker 2: a thing that happens. Dody also claims that he served

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Speaker 2: as a guard at Area fifty one, where he saw

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Speaker 2: a UFO. Now again, Area fifty one is a real base.

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Speaker 2: They are really try doing experimental shit with planes there.

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Speaker 2: This could be true, and in fact, the story he

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Speaker 2: tells might might be true, but not in a way

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Speaker 2: he wants you to think, because he claims while he's

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Speaker 2: there he sees them wheeling out this huge black disc

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Speaker 2: that's some sort of craft that they're trying to get

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Speaker 2: into the atmosphere that they like launch and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: look like anything he's ever seen, and his commanding officer

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Speaker 2: takes him aside, right, because he sees dodies fascinated in this.

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Speaker 2: And here's the conversation that is related in the book

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Speaker 2: Project Beta Airman, Dody, do you know what that craft was,

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Speaker 2: asked the officer. No, sir, that's what is generally known

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Speaker 2: as a UFO, and it's not one of ours. It's

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Speaker 2: on loan, yes, sir. Someday, if you play your cards right,

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Speaker 2: you will learn know a lot more. But for now,

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Speaker 2: you are to tell no one about this and you

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Speaker 2: are not to discuss it with anyone. Is that clear?

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Speaker 2: Dodi never talked about it again, And first off, obviously

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Speaker 2: he did. You you're telling us this story.

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Speaker 3: So from reading it in a book that's definitely been

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Speaker 3: recounted several times.

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Speaker 2: But also Pieri, Yeah, that could be basically true and

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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with aliens. He could have been

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Speaker 2: on guard duty seen a weird craft that maybe like

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Speaker 2: it was a fucking French or Canadian thing that like

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Speaker 2: we were doing tests on, right, So it's on loan,

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Speaker 2: and his boss is just kind of like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe if you play your cards right, you'll you'll get

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Speaker 2: we'll trust you with more stuff, right, And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if Dodie actually gets much more trust.

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Speaker 2: But this could be largely accurate, although I don't think

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Speaker 2: that's likely. Yeah yeah, that said, like there's evidence he

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Speaker 2: is working. He probably he definitely does see experimental craft

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Speaker 2: through his job for FOC later in his career, because

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Speaker 2: he's working at bases where they're doing that. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that he's told what it all is because they

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Speaker 2: they silo that info. Even if it's your job to

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Speaker 2: stop people from finding out about these programs, you may

296
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Speaker 2: not be told much about them because it's a need

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Speaker 2: to know a thing, and you don't. Right, you need

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Speaker 2: to stop people from filming the weird craft. You don't

299
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Speaker 2: need to know how it works. You don't need to

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Speaker 2: know what it is, right.

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Speaker 1: Like no, no, no, no, no no.

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Speaker 3: They don't want curious people working on like lower levels

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Speaker 3: of this stuff at all, Like they're not. No, they

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Speaker 3: want you to just come in and be like, my

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Speaker 3: job is to do this and then have blinders up

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Speaker 3: to everything.

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Speaker 2: I didn't see shit. This is why I've been saying

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Speaker 2: this for years. The government should have all of its

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Speaker 2: security done by street level drug dealers. You know, those

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Speaker 2: guys can keep their fucking mouth shut.

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Speaker 3: You know, absolutely no snitches, exactly exactly Area fifty one,

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Speaker 3: all security provided by coke dealers.

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Speaker 2: Just don't give me any coke. Then they talk about everything. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that came from sober. Otherwise it ends very badly.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, what a fun place. Just a bunch of

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Speaker 1: sober coke dealers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a bunch of sober coke dealers at Area fifty one.

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Speaker 2: This is going to end well. So there's evidence that

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, Dody is a credulous guy.

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Speaker 2: He does come to at least he will claim to

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Speaker 2: believe in this. He might just be fucking with everybody.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know, but a lot of guys in

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Speaker 2: his kind of level, in different intel agencies are believers themselves,

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Speaker 2: right so at any rate, Doty claims that his chief

325
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Speaker 2: mentor in spy shit was a guy named Seelely Howard,

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Speaker 2: a former insurance salesman. According to Dotie, he gave him

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Speaker 2: this sage advice early in his spook career. There are

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Speaker 2: three sorts of people you will be dealing with. The

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Speaker 2: First are the ones who will believe anything you say.

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Speaker 2: The second are those who will, at least at first

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Speaker 2: refuse to believe you. The last is the group who

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Speaker 2: won't believe you at first but might be willing to

333
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Speaker 2: be convinced. And what I find interesting about that is

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Speaker 2: those last two groups are the same group of people. Yes,

335
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Speaker 2: people who don't believe you at first, but you can

336
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Speaker 2: make them believe you. I don't see the difference.

337
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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, no, one is just on a longer timeline.

338
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Speaker 1: And yeah, even baba, yeah yeah, yeah. Sure.

339
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Speaker 2: So as soon as Paul Benowitz called the Air Force

340
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Speaker 2: with results of his surveillance, they knew they might have

341
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Speaker 2: a problem. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations very

342
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Speaker 2: quickly became concerned that Paul Benowitz had stumbled onto his

343
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Speaker 2: secret laser based tracking system located in Kirtland. At least

344
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Speaker 2: that's one of the things he might have stumbled on.

345
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Speaker 2: Greg Bishop, who wrote Project Beta, noted that these transmissions

346
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Speaker 2: sounded like Jibrish language that had been distorted and sped up,

347
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 2: or to a true believer like Paul, they sounded like

348
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Speaker 2: alien's speech. Edwards, chief of Kurtland based Security, had previously

349
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 2: described Doty to a friend at the NSA as his

350
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Speaker 2: drug man. And so that's less cool than it sounds.

351
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Speaker 2: As Greg Bishop writes, the duty simply involved checking for

352
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,239
Speaker 2: allegations of illegal drug use on the base, but it

353
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,480
Speaker 2: was only one of aged Dotey's minor assignments. The FOC

354
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 2: has jurisdiction over all criminal and security investigations at Air

355
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Speaker 2: Force facilities. Most FOC agents must carry a high security clearance.

356
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Speaker 2: Agents need to know what they are protecting so that

357
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Speaker 2: security threats can be recognized quickly. Benowitz carefully described to

358
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Speaker 2: Doty what he had seen and recorded, all while trying

359
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,560
Speaker 2: to keep what he really thought was going on to

360
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Speaker 2: himself for the moment. And this is where I think

361
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 2: Bishop is too credulous because again think back to Roswell,

362
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Speaker 2: the first guy, Like they don't tell the people who

363
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,880
Speaker 2: are looking and responding to that crashed balloon that Project

364
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 2: Mogul exists. It's very common for these guys not to

365
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 2: be in the loop about stuff, right, especially since he's

366
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Speaker 2: just a sergeant, you know, like he's not a super

367
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 2: high level guy here. That said, Dody is kind of

368
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,119
Speaker 2: sent to talk to Bennowitz, and he's like, hey, you know,

369
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Speaker 2: why don't you come to the base and we can

370
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Speaker 2: talk about your research. And so Paul heads to the

371
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 2: base and he shows Dody what he's got, and Dody

372
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 2: is initially kind of you know, bored, and then he

373
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 2: perks up when Paul starts to show him his radio array.

374
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Speaker 2: He returns to the base to talk with some NSA

375
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: colleagues about being bringing an expert out to Paul's home

376
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 2: to see what he built. So he visits Paul at

377
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 2: his house, and this time with an actual like like

378
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,680
Speaker 2: scientist in tow and another engineer, a guy named Lou Miles.

379
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 2: And the fact that Paul has now been invited to

380
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,400
Speaker 2: the base to talk He's had, you know, a guy

381
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 2: come over to his house from Air Force intelligence. Paul

382
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 2: is like takes this as evidence that like, I'm on

383
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: the right track and the Air Force supports me. I'm

384
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: now kind of helping looking, helping the Air Force find

385
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 2: evidence that there's aliens. You know, I kind of got

386
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 2: my ex files job because they think I'm so cool

387
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 2: and smart. Buddy.

388
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:10,360
Speaker 4: I know.

389
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 2: It's really sick because he's just trying to.

390
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 1: Help, you know, yeah, I no, he is just trying.

391
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Speaker 2: He just wants to keep his country safe of a threat.

392
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 2: You are oh no, my man, No, not at all.

393
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 2: So the expert Doughtie brings to Paul's home is Lou Miles.

394
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Speaker 2: Like Valdez, that State trooper. Miles was a guy who

395
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 2: wanted to believe. He had been involved to an extent

396
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 2: with Project Blue Book, which was like a multi year

397
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 2: Air Force investigation into UFOs. It's one of the big

398
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: seminal moments in early UFO history, right yeah, yeah. It

399
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 2: was also now the chief scientist for Kirtland's Test Center,

400
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 2: so he knew the reality behind a lot of the

401
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,119
Speaker 2: strange aerial phenomena that guys like Paul credited to aliens.

402
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 2: So he's both like open to believing, but also like, oh,

403
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 2: but I know that I know what you're actually seeing,

404
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,160
Speaker 2: and it's not aliens. It's this thing that we're working on. Nevertheless,

405
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 2: he was good at talking to Benowitz while Dodie hung

406
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 2: back and took photos with a hidden camera for the NSSA,

407
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: who is also involved in this. It's kind of murky

408
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: exactly where a FOC begins and the NSA ends, and

409
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,640
Speaker 2: like there's some evidence the CIA is also gets involved.

410
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 2: There's like a lot of people are kind of interested

411
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: in what Paul is doing, but no one's interested in

412
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 2: Paul's evidence of alien interference. They're again worried about, like

413
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: interested is whether or not he's actually like gotten any

414
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: encrypted shit. And they also think he might be useful

415
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: because being an actually brilliant engineer working in the aerospace

416
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: industry and someone who goes to these UFO conventions, he's

417
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 2: kind of trusted within the UFO community. So if they

418
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 2: want to get a lot of people to like pay

419
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: attention to something other than the real shady shit they're

420
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 2: doing at Kirtland, he might be able to convince them, right,

421
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 2: he might be able to distract attention away from the

422
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: real shit that being done that they want to hide.

423
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: So yeah. For the next year, Paul waits for updates

424
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: from the military and he continues his special interest exploring

425
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 2: extraterrestrial phenomena. In May of the next year, in nineteen eighty,

426
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 2: a twenty six year old woman named Myrna Hansen called

427
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: the state police to claim that she and her six

428
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 2: year old had been accosted by alien visitors near Eagle Nest,

429
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: New Mexico. The state troopers basically shrugged and handed the

430
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 2: case over to the only cop they knew who dial

431
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: dealt with this sort of shit, Gabe Valdez. If I'm

432
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 2: remembering correctly. I believe Valdez's attitude is that Myrna was

433
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: probably a plant. That's not clear to me. Again, a

434
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: lot of sketchy shit's going on here.

435
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: Immediately doesn't trust the woman, okay.

436
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but also this kind of shit go on,

437
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: so I don't know.

438
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also is a man, the six year old

439
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 3: fucking with me?

440
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 2: Right? Right? So Gabe calls our boy Paul and they

441
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: go off to meet Myrna. Now, by the start of

442
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: the eighties, the science of hypnotic regrets, which is not

443
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 2: really a science, had taken off among people who believed

444
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: or wanted to believe that they had been abducted by aliens.

445
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 3: Right, So let me turn you into a chicken first

446
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 3: and then tell me if you saw the aliens or not.

447
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to hypnotize you

448
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: and then walk you like say, a bunch of leading

449
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: things that get you to tell a fun alien story.

450
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 6: Right.

451
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, a lot of this stuff is some

452
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: similar shit's happening with like the Satanic panic. We're just

453
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: into the idea. I mean, there's a lot of this

454
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: in the X files, right, this idea that people have

455
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: memories locked away that this psychologist or psychiatrist who definitely

456
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: doesn't ever wind up fucking his patients can unlock.

457
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, people aren't like cool.

459
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, people aren't susceptible to being influenced to say things

460
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 3: to write please somebody either.

461
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 2: Yes, whatsoever? Yeah, speaking of things that aren't sketchy. Sponsors

462
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: of this podcast never never, they would never do anything illegal.

463
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: Although we did just find out out that what's that

464
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: food box company has child labor.

465
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: So which I'd be curious.

466
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, Sophie, which one was it.

467
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: I don't remember one of them.

468
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 2: Anyway, here's the ads. We're back. Sponsors love that sort

469
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: of thing.

470
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: Hey, that's what that's their problem for going dynamic.

471
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So Gabe called our boy Paul,

472
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: and off they went to meet Myrna Benowitz, who is

473
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: working for that civilian organizement, not working for but is

474
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: like one of the head guys at APRO, that civilian

475
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 2: looking into the UFO things, and like is also working

476
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: with this actual sheriff's deputy. UH partners. He and and

477
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: Gabe partner with a University of Wyoming professor who's who's

478
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: an ex a quote unquote expert in hypnotic regression. And

479
00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: this guy's name is literally doctor Leo Sprinkle. Fuck yeah,

480
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 2: great soup, what a seam, great stuff.

481
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: Man, good on adulthood.

482
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's a situation.

483
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 3: Leonardo Sprinkle, No, Leonardo Sprinkle, Yeah.

484
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: Oh fuck me. So in his books Saucer, Spooks and Cooks,

485
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: Adam Go rightly summarizes Benowitz. By this time had convinced

486
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: himself that the ETS were transmitting a mind control beam

487
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: to repress my Myrna Hansen's memories. Benowitz believed that the

488
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 2: ETS were likely beaming him in an attempt to disrupt

489
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: his ongoing UFO probe. To thwart this extraterrestrial electronic harassment,

490
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: Benowitz arranged for Hanson's regression to take place in his

491
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine Lincoln town car with multiple sheets of

492
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: aluminum foil draped over the windows to deflect the dreaded

493
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 2: alien beams. Benowitz connected these perceived beams to cattle mutilations.

494
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: It's so cool, I love this ship. Who's fucking wrapping

495
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: his car intend for the aliens are blocking her memory

496
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: with the beams. He's married, right, Oh yeah, he's got

497
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: a wife and she is a long suffering. I don't

498
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: know much about her, but a saint, I'll say that much. No,

499
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 2: a lot.

500
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: I know the power of disassociation. This woman is capable of.

501
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 5: Man.

502
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's like, honey, I need the car to

503
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: go to the grocery shore.

504
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: No, I have to go interview this woman. I got

505
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: the aluminum cable foil.

506
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 2: You get that tenfoil out?

507
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: We need it for the potatoes tonight. Absolutely not. I

508
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: needed to protect us from aliens.

509
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: And again he's he's been talking to Dody for months

510
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: at this point, and Doty is kind of just like

511
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: every he's yes, ending everything Paul says, right, like, oh yeah,

512
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: that sounds real, Paul, Yeah, definitely, Oh yeah, No, No,

513
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: aluminum foil, great idea, man, Yeah, absolutely so.

514
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: Is this where lubinum foil comes from? Is this like

515
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 3: the the origin of that?

516
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: Like this will block waves.

517
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 2: Part of it? Yeah. I don't know that Paul is

518
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: the only guy who starts it, but this is like

519
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: he is on the ground floor of the aluminum foil

520
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: will stop the aliens from reading your mind thing? Yes,

521
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: that's definitely fair to say he's among the because he's

522
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: very influential in this culture.

523
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: Tests Yeah, Yeah, so we.

524
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: Can see at this point he's already kind of starting

525
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 2: to go over the edge. Right, Paul begins writing analysis

526
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: of Mirna's hypnotic regression regression sessions replete with lines like

527
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: the alien does all caps kill with the beam, generally

528
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: kill with a beam?

529
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, where bodies? Where bodies?

530
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: Okay, Paul, Now the reality is that Hanson had just

531
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: brought up a bunch of existent UFO lore during her sessions. Right,

532
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: she complained about missing time, She described being picked up

533
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: in a tractor beam. She claimed an alien crewman had

534
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: brandished a silver knife before cutting into a cow's chest,

535
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: and she eventually described being taken to an underground base

536
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: where a metallic device was put inside her brain. Now,

537
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 2: this is part of why there's some theorizing that like

538
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: maybe she was a plant. Is This is when, and

539
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: Paul is the guy who really does more than anyone

540
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: to start this. This is when you start getting these

541
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: these UFO conspiracies about underground bases. And they're usually either

542
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: like bases that are our military shares with the aliens,

543
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: or maybe the aliens run the base. You know, there's

544
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 2: some stories about them having fights with the army and whatnot.

545
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: And these bases underground. But the real thing behind this

546
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: is that a bunch of people in Albuquerque had watched

547
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: and like this is something that Paul would have seen

548
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: from his house as the Air Force dug this massive

549
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 2: underground nuclear storage space, like the largest weapons underground weapons

550
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: storage base ever or at least at that point in time.

551
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: And so people are like wondering, what's this really for?

552
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: And the answer is pretty evil, Like it's for nukes.

553
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, nukes, Yeah, they There's a lot of theories

554
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: as to why so. Hanson also claimed Perbinowitz that she

555
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: had picked up an STD described as a vaginal disease

556
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 2: like strepto coxy bacillas from the aliens. Paul wrote to

557
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: his colleagues at the Volunteer Alien Hunting Group that quote,

558
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: we are trying to culture it, no luck as yet. Also,

559
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: it has evaded all of our known antibiotics with penicillin.

560
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: Damn, nobody's doing sex at on these aliens. That's the problem.

561
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: I got to learn to wrap it up what it is.

562
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: You got to wrap it up, though, Paul, you are

563
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 2: an electrical engineer. I don't think that you are qualified

564
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: to say that it's an unlike it can't be like

565
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: it's it's a it's got to be an alien STD.

566
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a normal one. Maybe it's just a normal one.

567
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not.

568
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: A doctor, Paul. You should first off, you should be

569
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: given this late antibiotics. Paul, you're you're not a doctor,

570
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: You're really so. He also revealed that MYRNA was being

571
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: quote badly beaten on by the alien with their beams

572
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: twenty four hours a day, and once Murna starts talking

573
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: to him about how she's just constantly being beam attacked,

574
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: Paul starts to believe that he too is being beaten

575
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: on with beams, and he urges his colleagues, who plan

576
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: to do regression work, to lock themselves in a car

577
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: in a garage coated with three layers of aluminum foil

578
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: to protect themselves from the beams. He's doing well, is

579
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: what you say. At this point. He's doing great, our boy, Paul,

580
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: very very healthy and making rational choices.

581
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: Fall You've fallen so far. You were doing so good, buddy.

582
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: So Dody is occasionally checking in with Paul, but he's

583
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: also spending the intervening months, you know, seventy nine early

584
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty working on another Mark. And this guy is

585
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: a journalist or a quote unquote journalist, depending on how

586
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: you see it, with a reputation for he is considered

587
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: to be one of the more rigorous guys within the

588
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: UFO community. By the UFO community. Take of that what

589
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 2: you will. His name is George Moore, at least that's

590
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: how he's described in Project Beta. But also the author

591
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: Project Beta really likes this guy, like impressed by him.

592
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: So I don't feel the same way about more Go.

593
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: Rightley's narrative makes him out to be like less more

594
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: of like one of an interchangeable number of UFO kind

595
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: of weirdos, although one who is you know, reached out

596
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: to by the government to spread dis info and more

597
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: claims that like he's down with this, right. And the

598
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: reason we're talking about him is that he is the

599
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: co author of that book, that first big book that

600
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: gets like UFOs back in vogue. Right, he's interviewing that

601
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: guy from Roswell. He's one of the guys who helps

602
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: make Roswell into like the thing that it is in

603
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: our culture. Right, He's written a bunch of other stuff.

604
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: You know, he's a very influential figure within this field.

605
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: And that inspires Dody and a colleague to approach him.

606
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: In July of nineteen eighty, Jim Lorenzen of APRO receives

607
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: a letter with no return address claiming to tell the

608
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: story of an eighteen year old Civil Air Porce troll

609
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: member who had cited a UFO and then been threatened

610
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: by a man in black named mister Huck. The young

611
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: man had reported this to a mister Dobie at AFOCI, right,

612
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: that's the Air Force, that's Dodie's agency. So Lawrence gets

613
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: this letter and he thinks it's weird, and he sends

614
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: it to Bill Mitchell, who's the best journalist he knows,

615
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: and or Bill Moore, who's the best journalist he knows.

616
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: And Moore is immediately is like, oh, this is bullshit,

617
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: and he knows it because he does some actual journalism.

618
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: Like he reaches out to the named witness and then

619
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: witnesses like, well, yeah, I saw some like weird lights,

620
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: but I never was I was never threatened by a

621
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: man in black, Like none of the rest of this

622
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: is real.

623
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: Man. The tiniest amount of journalism.

624
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really, that's all.

625
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 7: It takes a lot of Yeah, I just double check.

626
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 7: This'll literally just ask this guy if this happened. The

627
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 7: letter was actually the creation of Dodie and his colleagues

628
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 7: at AFOSI. They were hoping to rope in somebody like

629
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 7: Bill Right, somebody smart enough to have credibility in the subculture,

630
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 7: but also who might fall for a fake Right. They

631
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 7: didn't succeed in tricking him, but they continued fishing. In

632
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 7: September of nineteen eighty, More finished a blockbuster book, The

633
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 7: Roswell Incident, which is, Yeah, that's one of the things

634
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 7: that we exnites public entrants.

635
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So military intelligence gets very interested after this point,

636
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: and while he's doing his book tour, he keeps getting

637
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: calls at radio stations where like guys will be like, hey,

638
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: do you want to have a meeting? You know, I'm

639
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: from a government intel agency and I'd like to talk,

640
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: and he is. He eventually agrees, and he's met by

641
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: a man who dresses and acts very much like a

642
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: spy in the movie. Now, my opinion on what's happening

643
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: here is that there's some two way feedback. More desperately

644
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: wants to be a journalist working on classified fringe like

645
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: X files kind of stories, right, and he wants to

646
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: feel like he's part of this great game of spies

647
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: and spooks. Now the spooks he's talking to, these are

648
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: real spies, but they're not the high level operators working

649
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: to unearth, you know, Russian nuclear secrets or doing the

650
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 2: fucking cool shit that they make movies about. There are

651
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: some enlisted guys at the Air Force, mostly tasked with

652
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: lying to Rubes to cover up flight testing, right, and

653
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: they here's the thing, this is like a two way

654
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: street because they also want to feel like they're doing

655
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: cool spy shit, right, and so Doty and George more

656
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: part of what they're both doing because they're both much

657
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: more rational than Paul's. At this point, they're kind of

658
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: LARPing together in my opinion. You know, they're kind of like, well, Dody,

659
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: I get to play like I'm this very serious man

660
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: in black, and More is like, and I get to

661
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: play like I'm fucking Fox Molder almost right, you know,

662
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: the shows in the air at this point. But that's

663
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: what they're both getting here, right, and More is offered

664
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: a deal by Doty and a colleague help us out

665
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: with some odd jobs. Right, we need some like deniable

666
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: work that you can do and will pass you some

667
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: classified UFO information, right, Oh, I see, ye got it.

668
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how that yeah, yeah, yeah.

669
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: The first dossier that Dodi and his friend hand over

670
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: is bullshit. Like George again to some minor reporting and

671
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 2: is able to figure this out from Bishop's book quote.

672
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: After a few preliminaries, the question started, well, what did

673
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: you discover? More threw the paper down on the table, and,

674
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: trying to sound less annoyed than he actually was, replied,

675
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: this whole mess is a lie. None of these people exist.

676
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: The agent and Doti looked at each other and smiled,

677
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: what's going on? Asked More, you passed the test, said

678
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: the man, whom he would eventually refer to with the

679
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: code name Falcon. Within a few years, More and his

680
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 2: colleagues would begin to assign code names to their growing

681
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: coterie of contacts so they could talk freely about developments

682
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: without fear of identification if they were overheard. And you know,

683
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: maybe this was a test. I think it's like there

684
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: that they were like, okay, so he figured out this

685
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: is bullshit. Let's just tell him that that was a test,

686
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: and then, you know, stroke his ego. It helped believe

687
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: the next thing we say maybe right.

688
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're we're in good yeap.

689
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: We're finding from our side until we actually make him

690
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: a believer, and he'll feel great because he's passed all

691
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: these tests. So he's right, gonna start looking less and

692
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 3: less because of how smart he believes he is.

693
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: Right, and they hand him some shit and he'll admit, Like,

694
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 2: I knew some of what I was putting out into

695
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: the UFO community was bunked, but I think some of

696
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: it's real too, And like he's you know, he's being

697
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: a shady character here as well. Now. Unlike Paul Benowitz,

698
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,959
Speaker 2: George is a pretty I think a mentally resilient guy.

699
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: Like he definitely is a believer to some extent, but

700
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 2: I think he also I don't think he it takes

701
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: it as seriously as Paul does. Right. I don't think

702
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: this is breaking his brain. I think he's having a

703
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: good time.

704
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 5: Right.

705
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: My favorite story from More is that Dody and his

706
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: partner apparently thought More might be gay and decided to

707
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: test him by like one day when they're hanging out,

708
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: they like park the car and more It's like and

709
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: a bunch of men start walking past the car wearing

710
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 2: tight pants or high heels and dresses that like fit

711
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 2: really weird and like it doesn't seem like they would

712
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 2: like a comfortable in And apparently this is a test

713
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: because they want him to troll the gay bars of

714
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: Santa Monica looking for a guy that the FOC wants

715
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 2: for some reason.

716
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I don't know.

717
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: It was a slow day in the office when they

718
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 3: came up with right, well, there's like, ah, well, we

719
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: want to do something this weekend, right, all right.

720
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: So Dody and his colleagues they get some of what

721
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: they want out of more. Right, he launders some info

722
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: into the UFO community, some of the dis info they

723
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: want to distract from their real programs. But he's also

724
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: not he's a little too smart, right, He's not willing

725
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: to destroy himself publicly as much as was necessary for

726
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: the kind of misinformation that they wanted to get out.

727
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: And this is where Paul Benowitz re enters the story.

728
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: It is obvious by eighty eighty one that this is

729
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: a guy who was not well, but also he's respected,

730
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: and he is a guy who, because of his tech acumen,

731
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: might endanger some top secret operations. So the decision was

732
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: basically made. It let's suck him up a little, right.

733
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 2: Paul gets invited to give a speech at Kirtland and

734
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: most of the attendees leave before he's done, but like

735
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 2: one of them is like, uh, it's really interesting stuff, Paul,

736
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: and that just lights his ego on fire. Paul so

737
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: happy to hear this. He applies for air Force grants,

738
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: which he does not receive, but he apparently gets an

739
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: NSSA grant, and I think that's maybe the NSA fucking

740
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: with him, because some real fuckery is about to happen here.

741
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: Hey, I love an ironic grant.

742
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 3: Ironic grant money still spends.

743
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: It's a little more messed up than even that. So

744
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: Dody is now spending hours with Paul Benowitz, and he

745
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: claims that they became friends and that he found the

746
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: orders he received to spread lies to Paul personally distasteful.

747
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: If you watch the documentary Mirage Man, you'll see a

748
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: lot of Dody, and he does express a degree of

749
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: what kind of feels like real regret over what he

750
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: did to Paul. He is also a spy and a

751
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 2: professional liar, so I don't know that I believe he's

752
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: really or he just knows that he needs to perform regret, right,

753
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: I think that's probably likely. Yeah, So god, what do you.

754
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 3: Think like the like the internal notes of a person

755
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: that it constantly lies are like, is it just like

756
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 3: a notebook? Is it like a series of post it's

757
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 3: around their house? How do you keep that shit straight?

758
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: It sounds exhausting?

759
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: I don't you know. One of the things that you

760
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: get when you like read these stories and like the

761
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: way in which a lot of the writers and quote

762
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: unquote journalists who cover this stuff, the degree of credulity

763
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: they have to these guys stories. The thing that becomes

764
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: clue to me is like, oh, this is your first

765
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: time being lied to by a weirdo in the desert,

766
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: Like I spent a lot of my childhood and like, oh,

767
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: not childhood, my young adulthood and like off grid places

768
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: just listening to like lies from dudes at bars and stuff.

769
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of crazy stories that definitely aren't true,

770
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: and that's a ton of fun. But I think some

771
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: of these these people just like decide they want to

772
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: live as if that's real. You know that's fair? Yeah? God?

773
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: How many times? How many time shares do you think

774
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: they own?

775
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: It feels like, oh, my god, these guys are these

776
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: guys are very very vulnerable to time shares. So on

777
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 2: some of his early visits to hang with Paul, he's

778
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: shown a complex computer system doty is that Benowitz had

779
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 2: constructed and had his employees help him build to translate

780
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: these encrypted messages. Right, it's unclear what's actually happening. Is

781
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: he just getting random static and then like running it

782
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: through an algorithm to like create text based on that,

783
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 2: and then kind of going through it almost like it's

784
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: one of those like word puzzles and just like picking

785
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: up words out of a feed of words that like

786
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: and then saying like, oh, this is you know, a

787
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 2: message from the aliens, right, because some people will say,

788
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: like it looked like gibberish to me, but he would

789
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: pull out, you know, five or six words from this

790
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 2: like paragraph of nonsense and say like this is the

791
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 2: real message, right, Yeah, And this is a quote from Dodie.

792
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: Benowitz had the computer rigged up to antenna's on his

793
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 2: roof that included a small microwave dish, and he would

794
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: look at the screen and there would be images on

795
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: the screen that certainly wasn't an alien. But he was

796
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: convinced that it was. I would actually tell him I

797
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: don't see anything, and he said, I see it, and

798
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: I can hear them. And he had these earphones that

799
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: he would put on and he said, I can hear

800
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 2: them talking. And I asked, Paul, what language are they speaking?

801
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: He said, they're speaking their language. And he wrote one

802
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: hundred page document about the alien language. When he went

803
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: out to Kirtland to give his presentation to all these generals,

804
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: he presented them with that information. So the NSA, and

805
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 2: this is probably where the NSA gets heavily involved and

806
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 2: maybe why they give him that grant, because a plan

807
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 2: gets hatched to gift Paul with a new computer right

808
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: that he's told is a gift from a FOC. Some

809
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: accounts maybe Doty offered him the machine. Other the story

810
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: we'll hear more often is that an Air Force consultant

811
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: named doctor j Allen Heinek, who's a former scientific advisor

812
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: for Project Blue Book and a big guy in the

813
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: alien community. Now I think he denies this, but you'll

814
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: hear that too. We don't really know exactly what happened here,

815
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: because I've also heard like the NSA did it. I've

816
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: heard that the Air Force did it. I don't know.

817
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: Adam go Writely notes this computer had been provided at

818
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: the behest of the US Air Force, and embedded in

819
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: the software was a code that generated an alien language.

820
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 2: With the aid of the Air Force computer, Benowitz claimed

821
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: he established constant direct communications with the alien using a

822
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: form of hex decimal code with graphics and print out. Now, man,

823
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: so what's happening here? Probably is that because some versions

824
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: of the story say that the NSA was literally set

825
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 2: up across the street in a rented house, sending messages

826
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: directly to Paul's computer, I think it's maybe a little

827
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: less direct than that. But basically, he's got this machine

828
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: that's probably programmed to allow them to send him fake

829
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: messages from aliens, and so he starts getting messages like

830
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: this ground Ground, Women of Earth are needed, flexible. The

831
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: next just charges our ship. Women do not command the

832
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: north among us. You have many friends, water very short,

833
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: resist all attempts at alteration. Listen, Orange, make peace. And

834
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 2: Paul doesn't know what to make of this. He becomes convinced,

835
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: actually that this is the aliens trying to trick him

836
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: into thinking that they're peaceful, but he knows they're really dangerous.

837
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: He's so close. He's getting there.

838
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's getting there. Yeah. Greg Valdez, whose Gabe's son,

839
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: visited Minowitz during this period and he described seeing the

840
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: computer in use. He would type a question into the

841
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 2: computer into in a very complex for the time period

842
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: form of a computer program, much like a current email.

843
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: Much whoever went surprised he would get an answer to

844
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: the questions he was asking. Sometimes he would get an

845
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: immediate response, and sometimes it would take several minutes. He

846
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: would even receive very crude and basic pictures or graphics

847
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: on his computer of these aliens. Some of these pictures

848
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: resembled birds with reptile features, and some resembled reptiles with

849
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: bird features. During this question and answer session, Gabe instructed

850
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: Paul to ask the simple question where are you from?

851
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: Paul already knew the answer to the question because he

852
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: had already asked the question, and he answered it verbally.

853
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 2: When a response came back on the computer, it simply

854
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 2: said the zeta reticulized star system. So they're now really

855
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: fucking with this guy in a way that's very irresponsible.

856
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 3: I mean, who I want to know who was writing

857
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: this stuff, because that's the best job on the base.

858
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: That's right, maybe, Doty, it's probably a team of guy's right, Dody.

859
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: There's there's, you know, some evidence he was working with

860
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: the NSA, So maybe it's multiple. It's almost certainly multiple

861
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: people feeding him bullshit. Yeah, but yeah, the result is

862
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: that Paul grows convinced that the US government has signed

863
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: a treaty with aliens, perhaps to breed some sort of hybrids,

864
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: and they've been given real estate in an underground base

865
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: near Dulce, New Mexico. This paid played the happy dual

866
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: role of covering up ongoing weird experiments around Dulce. You know,

867
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 2: there's that poison gas fucking hole, and diverting the attention

868
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: of Paul and others away from Kirtland Air Force Base

869
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: and towards somewhere less harmful, right for theirin Yeah you know.

870
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

871
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: Now, during his communications with the ETS, Paul became convinced

872
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: that there was a secret war going on. Dozens of

873
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: base security and Dulce had been murdered by the aliens

874
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 2: and a gunfight. He wrote up plans to lay siege

875
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: to Dulce Base and began working to develop a sort

876
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: of beam weapon that could kill aliens.

877
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: Now, oh yeah, okay.

878
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, now we're making beam weapons. How about it?

879
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he was like, I better hope the aliens

880
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: don't have aluminum foil.

881
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: Listen, folks, if you if you have a friend who's

882
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: making beam weapons to fight the underground aliens. I actually

883
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 2: don't know how you should handle that situation, but probably

884
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: don't give him a computer that lies to him.

885
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: I think you got to sign him up for bowling

886
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 1: league or something.

887
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: I get him.

888
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get some more.

889
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 2: Social tapping maybe, yeah.

890
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 1: That social schedule a little bit, you know, and see if.

891
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: He wants to play D and D. Maybe his imagination

892
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: needs a little bit of a workout, you know, that.

893
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: Would be great.

894
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now I have a lot of This sounds

895
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: like the overarching conspiracy plot for the first like five

896
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: seasons of the X Files. That's because this is almost

897
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: certainly the direct inspiration for a lot of the X Files, right, Like,

898
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: this is, in fact, because this is all happening in

899
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 2: the eighties, not long before the X File starts, right. Yeah,

900
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: So Benowitz, as he's communicating with these aliens, he's gathering

901
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: information on this secret underground bass and this war he

902
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: believes is going on underneath everyone's noses. He's sending back everything.

903
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: He's getting the special agent, Dody, his good friend, and

904
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: Dody dutifully forwards this up the chain and encourages Paul.

905
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: Keep digging. You know, you're getting close. He's doing the

906
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 2: deep throat thing, right. He's like, yeah, keep gigging, you know, yeah.

907
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so close, you're going to get there.

908
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He's telling him that the aliens at Dulce

909
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: Base had been responsible for what he'd seen over Kirtland.

910
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: And he does this because he's like, oh yeah, man,

911
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: you know what, I ran it up the flagpole and

912
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: those that underground base. That's why you were seeing those

913
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: weird lights. Don't look near the air Force base. Keep

914
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: hanging out around Dulce, you know, that's where the shit's

915
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: going on, right, yeah, go rightly claims. The ultimate intent

916
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 2: of stringing Benowitz along, according to researchers like Greg Bishop

917
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: and Christian Lambright, was to shift Benowitz's attention away from

918
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: Kirkland to a remote area like the Archuleta Mesa your Dulce,

919
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: where AFOSI could ramp up their disinformation operation and more

920
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: easily stage UFO events. Speaking of stage, you know, what's

921
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: not staged is the reliability of our sponsors. That's completely legitimate.

922
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: You know, don't even question it, don't think about it.

923
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: Hand over your credit card information, text it to me,

924
00:46:52,840 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: I'll buy stuff for you, and we're back. Okay. So,

925
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 2: near the end of nineteen eighty one, Richard Dody convinces

926
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: his superiors to let him take Paul in a special

927
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: helicopter flight around the Archuleta Mesa since Paul is a pilot,

928
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: and they see some stuff. You know, there's some and

929
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: apparently Dodi claims that he and other agents put out

930
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: props right to look like air vins for the secret

931
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: underground base and other evidence. Right, this is so crazy.

932
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 3: And now there's an art director. Yeah, yeah, there's an

933
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 3: art director.

934
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: Production production.

935
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 3: There's production meetings about like what to do to this

936
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 3: poor man, Like.

937
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're having pitches and stuff yellow pitch meetings on

938
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 2: fucking with this guy. There's a there's a prop team now, yes,

939
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,479
Speaker 2: oh no, so because Paul's a pilot. After this first trip,

940
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: he follows this by doing his own recon flights over

941
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: the area, and he gets very obsessed with this, and

942
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: I have some questions. I don't know if I believe

943
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: Dody entirely that like he's being handed all of the

944
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: men in equipment necess to carry out a staged operation

945
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: on the scale he describes. But also it's possible and

946
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 2: in fact, maybe likely, Paul is sometimes seeing some real stuff,

947
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 2: Like he reports seeing what he describes as a crashed

948
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: Delta wing aircraft and in this area at this time,

949
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: they're working on prototypes of the Stealth Bomber, which is

950
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: a looks like that, and in fact Greg Bishop's project Beta,

951
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: Like that's his basic conclusion is that like Paul might

952
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: have seen like some of the testing stages of the

953
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: prototype of like the stealth bomber, right, and maybe that

954
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: was like part of what Dodie was doing was if

955
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 2: we get this guy to talk about if we show

956
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: if we let this guy see a little bit of

957
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: the real stealth bomber program but convince them it's aliens,

958
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: then anybody who's talking about like a Delta wing aircraft,

959
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: right will be like, oh, you're just talking about a UFO,

960
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: not this actual thing that we're working on.

961
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, exactly, Let's get everybody off the scent once again.

962
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: So maybe that's what's happening, or maybe it was just

963
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: an easy thing to make look like a plane from

964
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 2: the air shit like this. They do this in World

965
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 2: War Two. A bunch we do it, and actually the

966
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: Nazis do it too, where you're like make basically fake

967
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: out of like wooden shit and spray paint tanks and

968
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: stuff so people think there's an army where it isn't right,

969
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 2: so oh it's not.

970
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or I'm from in Maryland.

971
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 3: There's a fake cop car on, like one on the highway.

972
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, is up just to slow you down?

973
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that shit. Now. There are other claims

974
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: about what happened to Paul and his wife during this

975
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: period that are more questionable. One rite up I found

976
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: by the Cyberthetic project claims that Paul and his wife

977
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: developed red sores or perhaps some sort of rashes on

978
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: their body. I've seen that a few times. The cyber

979
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: Athetic Project describes itself as a token project with a

980
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: mission to unite holder so that they can communicate in

981
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: an open forum on the blockchain without fear of being

982
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: judged or censored. So you'd be right about questioning it.

983
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: As a source that said, this is all a lot

984
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: of fun. So I'm going to quote from it anyway,

985
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: just you know, a lot of salt here. It has

986
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: since been revealed that the NSA was in possession of

987
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: sensitive documents concerning advanced technologies such as active denial systems

988
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 2: and active denial technology. These technologies were apparently being developed

989
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: by Sandia Labs and Kirk Glenn Air Force Base with

990
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: the aim of producing a non lethal weapon that could

991
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: be used against enemies. Were they using this technology on

992
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: the Benowitz family? The answer to that is also unclear.

993
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: What is clear is that Paul and his wife were

994
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: being physically impacted by his research into UFOs, And that's

995
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 2: maybe not like I don't I think probably likelier than

996
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: some sort of weird beam weapon is that Paul is

997
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: losing his mind and he and his wife are both

998
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: very stressed out by this, yeah, and convinced that they're

999
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: being targeted by aliens, and they have like shingles, a

1000
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: stress rash, something like all sorts of shit, you know.

1001
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it feels like they probably would have broken

1002
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: out in some sort of like, yeah, stress rash of

1003
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: some kind, like, yes, that's fair.

1004
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 1: I have several friends from the California fires.

1005
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: That had them a week go right, right, Imagine prolonged

1006
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 3: experience to potential aliens for years.

1007
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to right, I don't think that that's

1008
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: it's at all unlikely that something like that is the

1009
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 2: case here. And yeah, So as he grew more obsessed

1010
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: with seeking out the truth, Paul's business declined, which is

1011
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: another reason why maybe he's dealing with some stress related problems.

1012
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 2: Ninety more office manager. Oh my god, I just need

1013
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 2: you just sign Paul. We just really need to make

1014
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: this censor man, could we? Okay, you've got the whole

1015
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: team working on translating alien speech. All right, well, I'm

1016
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: going to maybe print down some resumes.

1017
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1018
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy eight, Thunder Scientific had thirty employees. By

1019
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one that the number was down by almost half.

1020
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,479
Speaker 2: There were He starts hiding like guns and knives around

1021
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: his home as the nineteen eighties wore on, because he's

1022
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 2: just incredibly paranoid now, and he continues to attend UFO

1023
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 2: events throughout the mid to late nineteen eighties. His yarn

1024
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: about dulc, a base which was almost certainly invented or

1025
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: at least heavily egged on by Richard Dodi, had been

1026
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: a magnificent success. In nineteen eighty seven, John Lear, a

1027
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: prominent ufologist, stated that he had independently confirmed elements of

1028
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: Benowitz's story right that there's this underground base at a Dulce.

1029
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: Several books in the late nineteen eighties published their own

1030
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: variants of the story, which helped to spark a paranoid

1031
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: belief and secret underground alien bases that is still a

1032
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: significant part of qan on today. Like a lot of

1033
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: QAnon guys believe that there's a base under the Getty

1034
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: and Los Angeles.

1035
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 1: That's why I didn't barn.

1036
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: That's why I didn't burn. They kept it safe. That's

1037
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: where they keep the kids. Ye center Villa. I think

1038
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: it's the center either way, do a pizza gate at

1039
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: both places? Sophy, You know what, No, that didn't end

1040
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 2: well for that guy. There's a lot that's sad about this.

1041
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: But one of the worst things is that Paul had

1042
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: almost certainly stumbled upon a very real and y reimportant

1043
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: conspiracy at Kirtland see today. Kirtland Air Force Base is

1044
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: a major testing site for advanced drone technology, including weapons,

1045
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: systems to defeat drone swarms, and other experimental tech. We

1046
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: know that in nineteen eighty a black mystery vehicle was

1047
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: spotted at the base. This is right around the same

1048
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: time Paul is making his initial reports. So he's going

1049
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: to show you a picture of this mystery vehicle that

1050
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: is being tested at Kirkland Air Force Base when Paul

1051
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 2: is observing shit, right, it looks kind of like an

1052
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: SR seventy one, but it's like a drone version almost.

1053
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 2: This was apparently what now we know this was called

1054
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: at the time td a tdux toe target. A right

1055
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 2: up in the war zone describes it as a high

1056
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: speed towed aerial target to support the testing of infrared

1057
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: and electronic countermeasures or IRCM and ECM, respectively. Something like

1058
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: this would both look very weird in the sky and

1059
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: also might put off some of the signals that Paul was,

1060
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 2: you know, receiving right now. I don't know if this

1061
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: is what he saw was other stuff, because other shit

1062
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 2: is being tested at Kirtland, including precursors to our modern

1063
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: drone program. Right, Paul very likely came across evidence of

1064
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: the development of unmanned weapons systems that have gone on

1065
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: to kill huge numbers of people. No aliens need to

1066
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 2: be involved at all, for this to both make sense

1067
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 2: and be a real conspiracy theory. It's also very likely

1068
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 2: Duty wasn't fully in the loop as to what was

1069
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: being developed there, because he wouldn't need to be, and

1070
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: in fact, the more he believed the bullshit he was

1071
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: pushing on Paul, the safer the real secrets were. In

1072
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, Yep, yep, cool stuff. The drone program.

1073
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 2: It always comes back to that.

1074
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 3: Hooray, so exciting. But they make pretty firework alternatives.

1075
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: It's fine, it's all good stuff. Yeah, don't worry. If

1076
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: they can inform Steve Harvey in the sky.

1077
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah they can see. It's fine. They should have done that.

1078
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: That what the aliens love. Steve Harvey.

1079
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: Paul Benowitz went to the Air Force. I keep seeing

1080
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: Steve Harvey's face in the night sky. I don't know

1081
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 2: what's going on. In nineteen eighty eight, Paul published plans

1082
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: for an assault on Dulce Base, which he'd become convinced

1083
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: was the nexus of an alien plan to control the world.

1084
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: That same year, he became convinced that his wife was

1085
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: working with the aliens, or perhaps in control of the

1086
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 2: entire alien conspiracy. Correctly, wife, Yeah, she's really putting she's

1087
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: really going through it here and in this passage from

1088
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 2: go Wrightley's book, which is based on interviews with Bill

1089
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 2: Moore and Richard Dody, he describes a profoundly ill man.

1090
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 2: Both Bill Moore and Richard Dody, on separate occasions, witnessed

1091
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: first hand Benowitz's mounting paranoia, describing him as spun out

1092
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: and barricaded inside his homes, chainsmoking cigarettes, waiting in fevered

1093
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: anticipation for the final et showdown. In Project Beta, Greg

1094
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: Bishop recounted Benowitz told More that after the aliens injected him,

1095
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: they would make him drive his car into the desert

1096
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. He couldn't remember what

1097
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 2: he did after he got there. Around this time, Benowitz's

1098
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: family committed him to a mental health facility for nervous exhaustion.

1099
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: Oh man, you will sometimes hear it arrantly stated that

1100
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 2: he commits suicide as a result of this. He does not.

1101
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: This thankfully doesn't have as sad a story as it might.

1102
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: Paul gets out after about a month, and he seems

1103
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: to have pulled himself out of the UFO community. After

1104
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: this point, he and his wife stay together. They're married

1105
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: more than fifty years and he lives until two thousand

1106
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: and three, so you know, kind of a happy ending.

1107
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 2: But boy, it didn't it almost wasn't.

1108
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, for real, man, I also shout out to the

1109
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 3: place he was committed.

1110
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: Apparently they did the job. Yeah, that's a serious deprogramming man.

1111
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 2: You gotta stop, you gotta stop. In the computer the

1112
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: NSA gave you.

1113
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, a computer man.

1114
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 3: Man some four door just cracked all over their knuckles

1115
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: and he said, all right, let's get into.

1116
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 2: It, Paul. We need to have a long conversation about

1117
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: things that are real and things that aren't.

1118
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 5: So.

1119
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 2: Richard Dody would eventually retire from the Air Force and

1120
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: spend much of his retirement and golden years doing the

1121
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 2: UFO convention circuit he came. He will say that he

1122
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 2: was hired to consult on two seasons of The X Files,

1123
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: and that he wrote the screenplay for an episode. He's

1124
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 2: not credited as the writer for that episode, but you know,

1125
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 2: his stuff definitely helps inspire the X Files, right like

1126
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 2: he is, he is for sure involved in what becomes

1127
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: the X Files purely because of like his role in

1128
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: UFO culture.

1129
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure he wrote a script, but.

1130
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure he wrote a script.

1131
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people have written scripts, and he is.

1132
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: He's a member of a couple of different organizations. Now,

1133
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: he's a very controversial figure within the UFO community because

1134
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: he both definitely worked for Air Force Intelligence and tells

1135
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 2: a lot of stories about seeing aliens. He claims you

1136
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: have literally seen them, and also admits that he lied

1137
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: about aliens for years to a guy who nearly lost

1138
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: his mind forever. I wouldn't trust him. But for an

1139
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 2: idea of how Richard Dorty presents himself, now, here's a

1140
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: clip from him on the New Realities YouTube channel being

1141
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: interviewed by a UFO ology author named Ellen Steinfield.

1142
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 6: I mean, you're no longer working for the Air Force Intelligence, right.

1143
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: But right, that's right.

1144
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 5: I don't work for Air Force Intelligence.

1145
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 6: Well, don't be offended by this question. But how do

1146
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 6: we know you're still not working for them? And you're

1147
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 6: just saying you're not working for them.

1148
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of controversy over that. But number one,

1149
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have any reason to I'm I left the agency,

1150
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 5: left the intelligence agency back in nineteen eighty. Although I

1151
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 5: people bring up the fact that I was brought back

1152
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 5: to active service in ninety one and ninety three. But

1153
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 5: that had nothing to do with UFOs or disinformation. It

1154
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 5: had to do with what I did in Europe when

1155
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 5: after the Wall fell. So I work as a private investigator.

1156
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 5: I have no connections official connections with the United States

1157
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 5: government or intelligence community. I do have a lot of

1158
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 5: friends that still work within the intelligence community, and they

1159
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 5: feed me a lot of information that I share with you.

1160
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 5: I mean I shared it with you at the UFO MegaCon.

1161
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I mean I think he's still and

1162
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 2: they I even found an interview where he's like talked about,

1163
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: like he's asked about, like because Tom DeLong of Blink

1164
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 2: one eighty two is a big guy and is involved

1165
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 2: with Dotie in one of the organizations he's in, and

1166
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: one of the interviews is like, are you doing a

1167
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 2: Paul Benowitz to Tom DeLong. He's like, A, of course not.

1168
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 2: I would never.

1169
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:03,479
Speaker 1: I absolutely would never.

1170
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: I think he might be doing a Paul Benowitz on

1171
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 2: a couple of guys. Maybe that's just fun for him. Yeah.

1172
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: It reminds me of what's the.

1173
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 3: Uh in the Tanya Hardy in the Assault of Nancy

1174
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 3: Kerrigan Hardy. Yeah, yeah, Galuuly and yeah, yeah, yeah, idiot friend,

1175
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 3: the amount bullshit that they just believe about themselves and

1176
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 3: talking about like yeah, like the other guy Eckert, he

1177
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 3: like talked about how he like was a Special Forces

1178
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 3: guy and had all this ship made.

1179
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: You're like, damn you believe this though.

1180
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 2: I've heard so many fun lies about being Special Forces

1181
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: from dudes, like especially out in like the mountains, Like

1182
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 2: every old man you meet who like will tell you

1183
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: about all of the crazy shit he did in Vietnam,

1184
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: and it's it's just always it's always nonsense, Like, yeah,

1185
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 2: I know a guy we're in the little mountaintown where

1186
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: I used to live who was a Seal team member

1187
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 2: during Vietnam, and his reaction is very different, which was

1188
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: like he handed me a book that was written about

1189
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: like him and his colleagues and was like, you want

1190
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: to know anything, just read that. I don't like talking

1191
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 2: about it.

1192
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you've actually done any of this stuff, like

1193
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 3: it's it's not what it's it's not the movies.

1194
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 2: But it's kind of a bad time.

1195
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a lot to answer.

1196
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: For and process didn't like it. Not not happy with

1197
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: how that all went.

1198
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 3: No, No, not worth the free beer to talk about

1199
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 3: Joe really.

1200
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, anyway, well that's the aliens or not. But

1201
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 2: maybe there's aliens. I don't know. This is not conclusive

1202
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 2: on that matter one way or the other. But there's

1203
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: definitely a bunch of spy agencies who will light to

1204
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 2: you and destroy your brain if they think it will

1205
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: help them hide the fact that they're making some fucked

1206
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: up shit to kill people in other countries.

1207
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 3: Of course, maybe the alien is inside of you, listener.

1208
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 3: The entire time, the.

1209
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: Real alien was always the military industrial complex.

1210
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, because you know, to find what an alien is,

1211
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 3: it's something that works against like the good of humanity.

1212
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: Then in that case, the government is run by aliens.

1213
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 3: I don't know who knows, who knows what's out there

1214
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 3: or in here?

1215
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: Apparently?

1216
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, but what is out there and what is in here?

1217
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: Are your pluggables? Brandy Bam what transition? Thanks Sophie. Yeah

1218
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: you can.

1219
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: You can find me online at Brand Dazzle on all

1220
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 3: of the platforms, including the new ones and the old ones.

1221
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:44,919
Speaker 1: My podcast is called Lady.

1222
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 3: The Lady comes out every Wednesday and has been around

1223
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 3: for thirteen years. Burn this Record is my comedy label

1224
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 3: that I run where I put out amazing comedy albums

1225
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 3: and people all over the country that are.

1226
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 1: Very funny and also good people.

1227
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 3: And then I have my own album coming out on

1228
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 3: that label at the in the middle of.

1229
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: March, and I would love for you to buy it.

1230
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: That'd be amazing.

1231
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Brandy Posey dot com has all the information for

1232
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 3: all of the things. But yeah, come say hi. I

1233
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 3: if you're a fan of the show, you like me,

1234
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 3: I promise, so come on, all.

1235
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 2: Right, everybody, Well that's the episode until next time again, folks,

1236
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 2: I say this every time. Head to Kurtland air Force Face.

1237
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 2: Get a camera out and just start filming and go

1238
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: slowly insane, get a pilot's license, fly over some random

1239
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, just just do some shit. You know, why not?

1240
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: Nothing bad could happen.

1241
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 2: Let's go into hell in a handbasket. You might as

1242
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,919
Speaker 2: well lose your mind about some alien shit.

1243
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 3: If you want to test your relationship, go down an

1244
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: alien hole.

1245
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 2: See if your wife really loves you. You know, this

1246
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 2: is the only way to know. It's the only way

1247
01:03:59,080 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: to know.

1248
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 8: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1249
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 8: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1250
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 8: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1251
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 8: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

1252
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: You get your podcasts.

1253
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 8: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes

1254
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 8: every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot

1255
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 8: com slash at Behind the Bastards