1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,400 Speaker 1: I get to like write what I want to write 2 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: and teach what I want to teach. I didn't have 3 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: to capitulate to that fear. So it's timing. Some of 4 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: it is making a decision to be like I'm just 5 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: going to do this and I'm not going to be 6 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: a politician, Like I'm never going to be elected president. 7 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: That's fine, Like I'm just doing the thing I want 8 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: to do. 9 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: From futuro media, it's let you know, USA, I'm Maria 10 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: Nikosa today. A portrait of Carmen Maria Machado, the award 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: winning writer whose work pushes the boundaries of fiction, memoir, 12 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: and contemporary horror. Got Maria Machado is a modern day 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: literary phenomenon. Her writing defies genre. She's dabbled in horror, 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 2: sci fi, and speculative fiction, across personal essays, memoir, and 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: more recently, even comic books. Last year, Carmen debuted The 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 2: Lolow Woods, a limited run horror series from DC Comics. 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: Gotaman is a New York Times bestseller, a Guggenheim Fellow, 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: and a Nebula Prize finalist. Her short story collection, Her 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: Body and Other Parties, was a fiction finalist for the 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen National Book Awards, one of the highest honors 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: a writer can receive. In twenty nineteen, Carmen released her 22 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: experimental memoir In the dream House to near universal acclaim. 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: The book centers on her abusive relationship with her ex girlfriend. 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: She is the first woman who yokes herself to you 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: with the label girlfriend, who seems proud of that fact. 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: And so when she walks into your office and tells 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: you this is what it's like to dat a woman, 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: you believe her, and why wouldn't you? You trust her, 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: and you have no context for anything else. 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: In the dream House is a rare work of literature 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: that honestly and sometimes painfully documents abuse in a queer, 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: specifically lesbian relationship. 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: I enter into the archive that domestic abuse between partners 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: who share a gender identity is both possible and not uncommon, 35 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: and that it can look something like this. 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: The book lays bare the lack of historic records on 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: the subject and its silent taboo nature. 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: I speak into the silence. I toss the stone of 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: my story into a vast crevice, measure the emptiness by 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: its small sound. 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: The memoir was also applauded for its experimental form. In 42 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: the dream House doesn't have conventional chapters for starters. They're 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: really short, and they're more than one hundred and forty 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:37,839 Speaker 2: of them. 45 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Dream House as noir. She is not your first female crush, 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: or your first female kiss, or even your first female lover, 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: but she is the first woman who wants you in 48 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: that way desire tinge with obsession. 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: They read like little revelations over time that don't follow 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: a chronological order. 51 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: Dream House as Dejah, dream House as proof, Dreamhouse as myth. 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: Some of them are only a sentence. 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: Long, Dreamhouse as epiphany. Most types of domestic abuse are 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: completely legal. 55 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: The memoir also has a Choose your Own Adventure section, 56 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: where Carmen invites the reader to pick what to do next. 57 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: You were moving all night, she says, your arms and 58 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: elbows touched me. You kept me awake. If you apologize profusely, 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: go to page one sixty three. If you tell her 60 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: to wake you up next time your elbows touch her 61 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: in your sleep, go to page one sixty four. 62 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: Earlier this year, in the dream House caused outrage among 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: parents from a Texas school district after it was included 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: on a recommended reading list at a school board meeting, 65 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: one parent took a pink strap on dildo as a 66 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: prop and argued that letting students read Carmen's memoir could 67 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: be considered child abuse. 68 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: The next is from the chapter Dreamhouse is erotic and 69 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: just because you can buy everything on Amazon, this is 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: what we're asking our children to read. 71 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 3: It's a scrap on dildo. 72 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: In an op ed in The New York Times, Carmen 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: responded to the backlash, condemning what she described as an 74 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: act of censorship. In Carmen's words, preventing children from reading 75 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: my book or any book, won't protect them. It may 76 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: rob them of ways to understand the world. For this 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: episode of Latino Usay, I sat down with Godmin Maria 78 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: Machado for an open conversation about her craft, her Latin identity, 79 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: and finding inspiration amid the real life horrors of a 80 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: global pandemic. Hello Godamin, Hello, where's Cardiman Maria Machado? Right now? 81 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: Where they're on the Mayamas. 82 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: I'm in West Philadelphia. I've been here for oh God, 83 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: eight years. 84 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: Now, how you doing? How are you holding up? 85 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: I'm doing okay. We all have our health. 86 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: My wife and I moved to our first house from 87 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: an apartment right before COVID. So we are lucky that 88 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: we also like have space. I mean, I am going 89 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: stir crazy and I am I am struggling a little 90 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: in that you know, mental health way that I think 91 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people are. All right, let's talk a 92 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: little bit about that space, you know, struggling with mental health. 93 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering what it looks like for you, Like 94 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: do you think maybe there's another book in you? Or 95 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: are you feeling like you know, everything did need to 96 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: slow down. I was literally touring my memoir when COVID happened, 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: So I was traveling, traveling, traveling, traveling, and of course 98 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: horribly was like, God, I'm so tired. 99 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: I just wish I could get a break. 100 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: It's like I manifested COVID because I went from being 101 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: just having a full calendar to it just being completely empty. 102 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: And I think, again, it's hard for me because I 103 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: do love traveling and seeing people and meeting people and 104 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: meeting readers and doing events. I like that sort of 105 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: in person energy. I like the sort of the energy 106 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: in a room when you're like interacting with a class. 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: I do a lot of my writing at residencies, like 108 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: I usually go away to write, and I haven't been 109 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: able to do that. 110 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: I was supposed to write a book last year, like. 111 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: I had taken off from teaching to finish a new book, 112 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: and I've done almost nothing because I've just been treading water. 113 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: You take us into these deep, dark, pretty scary places 114 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: in your work, and it sounds like you've been visiting, 115 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: you know, pretty dark places of your own over the 116 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: past year. And I mean, I wonder if you can 117 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about that this notion of 118 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: treading water. 119 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: Part of it is that I'm just an I'm an extrovert. 120 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: I function best when I'm able to really connect with 121 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: and interact with other people. You know, you can do 122 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: that on some level, you know, you can talk on 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: the phone or talk online or whatever. But i just 124 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: like being with other people. And I've always been that way, 125 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: and I mean my dad is that way, my grandfather 126 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: was that way. Like that's just like a Machado trait 127 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: is that like level of extraversion and just really loving 128 00:06:58,560 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: to be around. 129 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: Other people and like being present in that way. 130 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: And I think it's resulted in, like I mean, a 131 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: low grade depression like this sort of the day to 132 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: day that kept my life sort of air raid and 133 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: effervescent and like help me move around, because when I 134 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: move around, I'm like thinking and I'm interacting, and I'm like, 135 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: this part of my brain is getting sort of nourished 136 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: by just the world, and I feel like that has 137 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: just been completely cut off and it feels like a 138 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: limb that's like atrophying and dying. 139 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: You know, are you writing about all of this sense 140 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: of kind of laws or is it mostly just still 141 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: too much in your head in your heart. 142 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: I have not written about it a lot. 143 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: A few months ago, I got asked to write about 144 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: one year in COVID, and I was just like, I 145 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: can't do it. I mean, I just feel like a 146 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: weird blob, you know, sort of psychologically physically like all. 147 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: And it's again, that's not. 148 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: The way I normally feel like. I normally feel so 149 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: alive and happy and vivacious, and I just love people 150 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: and I get so energized by people. 151 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: And like, I don't know, I feel like I've become 152 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: like afraid. 153 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: The way you're kind of talking about this brings up 154 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: a lot of questions around fear and things that are scary. 155 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: And I have to tell you that before I started 156 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: reading in the dream House, I was scared. I loved 157 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: the book. I love the fact that you took me 158 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: to these places. But why horror? 159 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? 160 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: So I have always found horror very provocative and interesting, 161 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: despite being a gigantic, scaredy cat and a hypochondriac since 162 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: I was very small. When I was young, I was 163 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: afraid of everything. I was afraid of death, and I 164 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: was afraid of monsters and the dark. 165 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: And I would read. 166 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: Horror novels and I would read novels about illness, like 167 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: I remember reading The Hot Zone. It was like I 168 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: don't know, eight or nine, which I had gotten at 169 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: like a yard sow. 170 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 3: I was a real masochist as a child's and. 171 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: I would like not sleep and my mother would ban them, 172 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: she'd take them away from me, and I would go 173 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: get new ones and I'd read them, and I think 174 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: she truly did not understand. She was like, if you're 175 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: so scared, why on earth would you do this? I mean, 176 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in fear and anxiety and like what 177 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: that says about us. And I think that horror literature 178 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: or horror film it's like going on a roller coaster. 179 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: It's like a controlled adrenaline rush. It's something that's like 180 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: terrifying and scary and it's arousing your emotional sort of state, 181 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: but it's all contained, right, Like ultimately it's safe. It's 182 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: not real, it's fictional. And so I think that horror 183 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: has the potential to be incredibly subversive and interesting and 184 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: also on some level just scratches an itch that I have. 185 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: Last Halloween, I went through like a kind of an 186 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: eighties horror phase. So I watched all the Nightmare in 187 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: Elm Street movies. I don't even know seven. 188 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: I watched all the old ones. 189 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: They're wonderful when they're horrifying, but they're like really interesting. 190 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: I love old school special effects. So I watched like 191 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: all the night We're in Elm Street movies. I watched Halloween, 192 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: watched The Thing, which is like a real classic. Oh 193 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: the Thing is so good, And I watched Slumber Party Massacre. 194 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: I convinced my spouse. My spouse hates horror. She can't 195 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: stand it, but occasionally she'll let me. She'll let me 196 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: show her something if I like spoil it for her. 197 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: So as long as I've told her what's gonna happen, 198 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: she can watch it. And so we watched The Descent, 199 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: which is a real classic that I really love, which 200 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: is about this group of women. It's an almost all 201 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: female cast and they're spelunking in a cave and also 202 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: there's like monsters in the cave, and it's just like 203 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: so good, it's so good. 204 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: Oh my god, you're scaring me just by insane these 205 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: But let's talk about your family for a minute. You're 206 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: growing up in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Your family is from Cuba. 207 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,359 Speaker 2: And this is the part that got me really interested 208 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: in your particular family story, which is that your grandfather 209 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 2: who leaves the island, comes to the United States. He's 210 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: actually deported during the McCarthy era. 211 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: The version that I have is like a little spotty, 212 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: but my understanding was that he came to the US. 213 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: He was studying at Tennessee Tech, which is this very 214 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: small technical college in Tennessee, which is just so funny 215 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: to me, and he didn't speak an English and like 216 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: it took him a very long time to finish because 217 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: he first he was deported and then he managed to 218 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: come back. He ended up fighting in the Korean War. 219 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: He finished his degree like ten years later or something like. 220 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: It took him a really long time to finish, and 221 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: then he moved to DC, which is where he met 222 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: my grandmother and where he lived the rest of his life. 223 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: But he had a really different relationship with Cuba. He 224 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: has two brothers who also came to the US, but 225 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: then he had other siblings that stayed behind who I 226 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: had never met and have never met because they've all 227 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: they've all passed. 228 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 2: Wow, So a real divided family completely. 229 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: Like I went to Cuba few years ago and it 230 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: was the first time that I had met a lot 231 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: of the people there. 232 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: All Right, so Cuba, But can we talk about Allentown, Pennsylvania. 233 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: The way you write is really a part of the 234 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 2: great American right tradition. Your style of writing is so unique. 235 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 2: That's why people love you so much, because you're like, whoa, 236 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 2: this is not like any other book that I've read, 237 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: this particular way of telling stories. And so I'm like, 238 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: so did Carmen figure that out someplace along the line 239 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: when she was growing up in Allentown, Pennsylvania? Is that 240 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: what's happening? 241 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: That is such a kind thing to say. I don't know. 242 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think how much Allentown or Pennsylvania has 243 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: to do with that. My parents met in Wisconsin, which 244 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: is where my mother was from, and my dad was 245 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: in grad school at the University of Wisconsin, and they 246 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: met there and they moved to Allentown because of his job. 247 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: Right when I was born. My mom would tell stories 248 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: about how, like when she moved to Allentown that like 249 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: somebody said to her, like, oh, I've heard Allentown's like 250 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: a rough place. 251 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 3: And there was a lot of tension when I was 252 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: growing up. 253 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: In the first home we lived in, there was tension 254 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: with the neighbors who really did not like us and 255 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: would say things to my mother like that they hoped 256 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: that cars would run us over. They they told my 257 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: father he wasn't on the right side of Allentown, like 258 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: he had to go to the other side of Allentown. 259 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: And so my father's like response was to have my 260 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: mother cut his hair on the front lawn while he 261 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: was like shirtless and like drinking red wine and like 262 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: blasting salsa music. 263 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: And it was just like, hey, neighbors. 264 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: That is like the best ever. Yeah, it was. 265 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: It's pretty It's a pretty funny story. I love that story. 266 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: It's my favorites about my dad. It was weird was 267 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: these neighbors were also like a gay couple, so the 268 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: first gay people that I ever met in my whole life, 269 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: and I like didn't fully understand. There's like a lot 270 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: of weird sort of racism and weird energy, and it 271 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: was just kind of a strange time. I don't remember 272 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: a lot of this because I was fairly young. We 273 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: moved to a different house in a different sort of 274 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: area of town, like when I was god like eight 275 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: or nine, So we moved to a little more of 276 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: a rural area the second time, like a little more 277 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: out sort of toward the corn Basically, I feel like 278 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: it was this weird mix of like urban and rural, 279 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: and then there was this sort of this really natural beauty. 280 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: And also I feel like Pennsylvania has this deep like 281 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: Gothic energy, the sort of like shadow of itself, this 282 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: deep sense of like place that I feel very Gothic 283 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: to me, and I was like very I feel like 284 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: aware of that idea. 285 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: All right, So I'm thinking about you in that place, 286 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: a young Latina growing up in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and the 287 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: fact that you've written and talked a lot about, you know, 288 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: nothing new being a Latina essentially struggling with her identity, 289 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: and I'm wondering, how would you describe where you are 290 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: right now? How are you perceiving your relationship with your 291 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: own identity now? It is as. 292 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: Always, it is complicated. 293 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: I was actually asked to write like an essay for 294 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: some anthology about LATINIX identity, and I said yes initially 295 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: because I was like, Oh, this will be a good 296 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: chance for me to like work out some stuff on 297 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: the page. And then I ended up not doing it 298 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: because I was just really struggling, and I was really 299 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: struggling with trying to articulate this piece of myself that 300 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: I feel in some ways and have felt sort of 301 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: very complicated feelings about and like felt isolated from. I 302 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: don't speak Spanish very well. We didn't grow up speaking it. 303 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: My dad doesn't really speak it, you know, sort of 304 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: a language that like died between my grandfather and my father. 305 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: That is sort of a source for me of great 306 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: anxiety and shame. And it's something that I struggle with 307 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: and I think about a lot. People sort of ask me, 308 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: like what am I? I feel like the answer is 309 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: so complicated and it shifts, and like recently, especially thinking 310 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: about black lives matter. I've been thinking about like my 311 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: own relationship with whiteness and like what that looks like. 312 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: But it's like I don't have like an answer I 313 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: can kind of returning to the same sort of struggle 314 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: kind of over and over, the same sort of set 315 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: of questions, those questions being I present as white, Aren't 316 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: I just white? Like it's like a question that I 317 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: worry about, like an anxiety that I have. Is it 318 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: weird or appropriative to say that I'm Latina when like 319 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't speak Spanish very well? Like how am I 320 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: complicit in white supremacy? I think these are all questions 321 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: that like everyone should be asking themselves, But for me, 322 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: it just feels so tied up in this piece of 323 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: me that I just don't have a lot of clarity on, 324 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: which is weird because I feel like I have clarity 325 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: on like other parts. 326 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: Of my identity. 327 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: But people think of racial groups as monoliths right where 328 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, there's like a LATINIX identity or experience, 329 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: or there's like a Black experience or Asian experience. 330 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 3: You know, It's like no, there's there's like a. 331 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: Million of them, right, And like I had one particular 332 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: kind but in many ways makes me feel very isolated 333 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: from that piece of my identity and so don't know 334 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: what to do with that. 335 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: And basically I would say, in many ways, all of 336 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: that that angst is in fact the definition of being 337 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: Latin or a Latina in the United States of America. 338 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: Like if people could just realize, like yo, if you 339 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: are in a constant state of like identity ang okay, 340 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: then you're Latino or Latina. Coming up on Latino USA. 341 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: We continue my conversation with award winning author god Man 342 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 2: Maria Machado. Our conversation turns to writing about sex relationships 343 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: and her award winning memoir In the dream House, Stay 344 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: with Us. 345 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: And Young Nowhere Latina where h h h h h. 346 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 2: H Hey we're back. We're going to continue now with 347 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: my conversation with Godmin Maria Machado. She's the award winning 348 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: author of a memoir called In the dream House, where 349 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: she writes about her experience in an abusive queer relationship. 350 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: We talk about In the dream House and discuss the 351 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: art of writing memoir and sex scenes. I don't know 352 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: how you kind of categorize your writing around sex. Do 353 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: you like the term erotica and how you, as a 354 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: Latina were kind of figuring that space of writing and 355 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: being vulnerable in that way. 356 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: The word erotica is really interesting. I don't think I 357 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: write erotica, but not because I feel like people say 358 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: that often as like a judgment. 359 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: I sort of have this theory about it. 360 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: When you have sort of sexually explicit content in a 361 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: piece of art, sometimes the content purpose is to sort 362 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: of tell a story, and so the sex is serving 363 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: the story in some way. And then sometimes you're writing 364 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: something where the point of the story is to be 365 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: tipilating or arousing or erotic, and I think of that 366 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: latter than as erotica, and the former is just sexually 367 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: explicit whatever it is like fiction. So for me, I 368 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: have written erotica like I have written stories where I 369 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: sort of was like, Okay, I need to maximize the 370 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: amount of boning happening on the page, and that is 371 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: like the whole point of like what I'm doing. But 372 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: the work that appears in my memoir and in my 373 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: short story collection, I think of that as like the 374 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: sex is a part of the story. 375 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 3: That's sort of my take on that. 376 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: I did have a lot of fears in the beginning 377 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: about what it meant to write that I think writing 378 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: it as Latina, as a woman, as a queer person, 379 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: there's like a lot of sort of potential sort of 380 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: pitfalls and anxieties. And I was really worried about what 381 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: my family would think. I was really worried about, you know, 382 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: if I could get a job. I was really worried 383 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: about who would publish. It was like an ongoing sort 384 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: of set of fears, and eventually I kind of decided, well, 385 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: I want to do this. 386 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 3: I would not want to have a job. 387 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: Or a life that like I'd have to hide this 388 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: part of my work, and so I might as well 389 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: just lean into it and sort of the chips will 390 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: fall where they may, Like, I'm just going to see how. 391 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: It start works out. 392 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: Make it your superpower right precisely? Does it bring you 393 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: particular kind of well, I guess this is okay, pleasure 394 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: to wonder if that's. 395 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 3: What you were going to say. 396 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: I mean, as a Latina reading it, I'm like, not 397 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: only in my loving the writing, but I'm kind of 398 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: loving thinking about got in writing about this and got 399 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: in being the writer who's writing this. 400 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: I remember when I first sort of began writing the 401 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: work that ended up in my first book and my 402 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: second book, like looking for other writers who wrote sort 403 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: of erotic literary fiction or like literary fiction. 404 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: That contained sex scenes. 405 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: And I just kept returning to if you were a woman, 406 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: or you were gay, or you were not white, or 407 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: you were any combination of those things, to find your 408 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: body and your sexuality and your experiences represented in that way. 409 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean, just to find them in general is harder, 410 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: and just to find sort of sex in that context 411 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: was almost impossible. And so weirdly, I was reading a 412 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: lot of like straight white men and sort of being 413 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: interested in like how they were writing it and like 414 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: how I might think about it differently. I'm also like 415 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: a fat woman, and like that's part of it as well, 416 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: the politics of how you talk about your body and sex, 417 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: and that's like a really important part of it too. 418 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: So I just sort of feel like there's something really 419 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: exciting about that, and it's really exciting to get to 420 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: make that space for myself and be in that space. 421 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,719 Speaker 1: It just felt very necessary for me. I wanted to 422 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: write about my life which is like sexual, you know, 423 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: like among other things. It just sort of feels important 424 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: in that. 425 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: Way in your book in the dream House, you write 426 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: and I'm going to quote here the memoir is at 427 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: its core an act of resurrection, and I agree it is, 428 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: but I'm also trying to understand what are you got 429 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: me and Maria Machado specifically trying to resurrect and why 430 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: do you want to revive your past in this way? 431 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 3: It's so funny. 432 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: I didn't interview once with Jennifer Egan a few years ago, 433 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: who's like, you know, obviously a wonderful novelist, and we 434 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: got asked a question why do you write? And I 435 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: was like, I write to know myself better and she 436 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I write to get away from myself. 437 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: We both were like on totally opposite ends of the spectrum. 438 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: So like I was like, yes, I'm constantly like whatever 439 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: I'm doing, it's like what's under here? 440 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: Like what's going on? 441 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: And she's like, oh no, She's like, I want to 442 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: write about other people that aren't me, you know, And 443 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: it's just like a. 444 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 3: Different way of writing for me. 445 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: It is constantly sort of like trying to return and 446 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: like articulate and clarify and make sense, which is like 447 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: a lifelong project. It's not like you write a book 448 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: and you've done it. 449 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 3: It's like that question of like who am I? What 450 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 3: is my brain? 451 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: What am I doing on this planet? What does it 452 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: mean that I'm here? Those are just like human questions, 453 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: and some people decide to like write toward the answer, 454 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: which I guess is why people say things like oh, 455 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: writers are like so egotistical because they're like about themselves. 456 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: But it's like, isn't that just the human question? Who 457 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 3: am I? And why am I here? And what does 458 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 3: it mean that I'm here? 459 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: And you know, what's going on in this weird brain 460 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: of mind that I like don't even fully understand. 461 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like very interesting to me, and 462 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 3: that's why I write. 463 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: In your book you really wanted to create an archive 464 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: of an experience as a queer woman who is a 465 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: survivor of abuse, and that is a lot to document. 466 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: And I wonder for you if it was just like 467 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 2: who knows what's going to come out? Or oh no, 468 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: hell no, I absolutely want to write about this. 469 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the process for me was so strange, and 470 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: I have to confess, if I were to go back 471 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: in time, I would not have written this book. It 472 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: was very painful and very difficult and very traumatic, and 473 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: I might not have put myself through it if I 474 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: had known how bad it was going to be. One 475 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: of the challenges of the book was not only was 476 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: I sort of doing all this personal excavation and shaping 477 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what my experiences had meant, 478 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: but I also was doing research and like digging up archives. 479 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: I mean, why I talk about. 480 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: In the book the history of domestic violence as we 481 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: understand it, the term the idea of domestic violence is 482 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: only like fifty years old, Like it's not that old 483 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: before like the seventies, Like we didn't really know. 484 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 3: How to talk about it. 485 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: What was so strange about the research too, was you know, 486 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: sort of seeing how the lines were getting drawn. The 487 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: minute we began talking about domestic violence with straight women, 488 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: lesbians were like, but there's also lesbian domestic violence and 489 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: it's really bad because lesbian victims can't go to women's 490 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: shelters because their lovers can track them down. And then 491 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: street women were like, you're taking away our resources, like 492 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: go away. 493 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 3: So there was like a lot of. 494 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: Like weird political infighting, people sort of fighting over as scraps, 495 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: which is I mean, what happens in all essentially progressive movements, 496 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: is you have like groups that should be working together 497 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: fighting for like very limited resources because we live in 498 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: a terrible world, just terrible things and doesn't get people 499 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: what they need, you know. I was reading these stories 500 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: about these women, and like a lot of these women 501 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: were like black and Latina. Reading their stories and like 502 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: reading about what they experienced was like so hard breaking 503 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: and so difficult. I mean, it was almost even worse 504 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: than my writing my own material. Just having to sit 505 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: down every day and like read this research and these 506 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: like legal papers about battery between women and things like that, 507 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: and it was just very hard and really painful. And 508 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: I also felt in some ways like very much unqualified. 509 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: Like I kept saying, like I'm not an academic, I'm 510 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: not a historian. I think the only thing that kind 511 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: of kept me going was thinking, like, but if I 512 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: managed to like chip away a little bit at this, 513 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: maybe then someone else will come in with a book 514 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: with like a different experience. You know, what is like 515 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: the black lesbian experience, What is like the trans experience 516 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: or a trans experience? What is the gay male victims experience? 517 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: I feel like for me, it was just like trying 518 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: to make a little place where we could sort of 519 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: be into like chip away and sort of break into it. 520 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: But then I did an event. 521 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: It was like halfway through my tour, and this older 522 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: lesbian stood up during the Q and A and she said, 523 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm really excited to read your book. 524 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 525 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: She was like, I feel like every ten years we 526 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: like break the silence on domestic violence and queer relationships, 527 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: and then like ten years later we do it again, 528 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: and ten years later we do it again, and she's 529 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: been very honest, and it really broke my heart because 530 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, maybe it's all for nothing. So 531 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: I feel like the whole sort of process of like 532 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: how to like think about it emotionally is very hard 533 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: and difficult. And it didn't help that I like I 534 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: was having all those thinky thoughts and then immediately went 535 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: into a year of isolation. I feel like it was 536 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: just a really terrible sort of sequence of things. 537 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 2: But I'm watching as you are now moving into all 538 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: kinds of different spaces as a writer. You're doing some nonfiction, 539 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: you're doing graphic novels. You're talking about not feeling very productive. 540 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: But I'm like, yeah, wait, wait, but there's all this 541 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: stuff that you're doing, and I'm wondering how you see 542 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: yourself as an American writer and how you see the 543 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 2: importance of the work that you're doing. Do you have 544 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: this kind of historical commitment to like I'm going to 545 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 2: claim this space and you're going to have to listen 546 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 2: to me. Or is it not like that at all? 547 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: And kind of mid mighty Ima Chido's head. 548 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: I think a really good exercise for writers is to 549 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: like find like lists of like best selling novels one 550 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: hundred years ago. List how many of them you've heard of, 551 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: and most of them you have not. Occasionally they'll be like, well, 552 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: that's actually really famous. Mostly you're like, I've never heard 553 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: of this book. 554 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: It's certainly out of print. 555 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: If you're lucky, you get to get like a tiny 556 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: taste of like your role in your country's culture. But 557 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: there's really sort of no way to know. One day 558 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: I will die. I hope people are still reading my 559 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: work in one hundred years. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. 560 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: I will never know, and you have to like come 561 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: to peace with that. I don't know, will my work 562 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: be a part of like a certain generation of like 563 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: American writing that's like known in the future, I mean, 564 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: assuming we all are like underwater, like assuming that the 565 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: humanity continues for a little while, will I be somebody 566 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: who's known and is like, oh yes, like Carmen Maria machatdo, 567 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: she was part of, like this movement of literature in 568 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: the US that curly doesn't have a name. 569 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I hope. 570 00:27:53,560 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: So all they can do is write the work I 571 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: want to write. I write to satisfy myself. I get 572 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: to tell the stories I want to write, COVID and 573 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: Isolation and like the World Aside. I'm really honored by 574 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: like the readers that I have and the publishers I've 575 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: gotten to work with the work I've produced. I feel 576 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: very proud of my career and proud of my art 577 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: and proud of my work and proud of what I've done. 578 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: I get to do what I want to do. I 579 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: feel like that's all you can ask for. 580 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: Maria Machado, It's been so much fun talking. We'll share 581 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: a big avidas so in person. But thank you so 582 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 2: much for all of your work. We really appreciate it. 583 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: I would love to see you in person, and yeah, 584 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: thank you for having me, this has been a real joy. 585 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: That was Maria Machado, Award winning and best selling author 586 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: of In the dream House, Her Body and Other Parties, 587 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: and the limited comic book series The Low Low Woods. 588 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Maries Kinca, edited by Alejandra Saasal, 589 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: and mixed by gabriel Lebayez and Liasha Damren. The Latino 590 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: USA team includes Andrea Lopez Grussado, Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, 591 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 2: Julia Ta Martinelli, Victori Estrada, Gini Montalbo, Patricia Sulvaran Rinaldo, 592 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: Leanos Junior and Julia Rocha, with help from Raoul Perees. 593 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: Our editorial director is Julio Ricardorella. Our senior supervising engineer 594 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: is Stephanie Lebou. Our assistant senior engineer is Julia Caruso. 595 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: Our digital editor is Luis Luna. Our intern is Oscar 596 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: de Leon. Our theme music was composed by Senior Rowinos. 597 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,959 Speaker 2: If you like the music you heard on this episode, 598 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 2: stop by Latinousa dot org and check out our weekly 599 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: Spotify playlist. I'm your host and executive producer Maria j. 600 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: Josa join us again on our next episode and in 601 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: the meantime, look for us on social media. Hi loos, 602 00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 2: veo ciao. 603 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 4: Latino USA is made possible in part by the John D. 604 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 4: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, working with 605 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 4: visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide, and 606 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 4: the wind Coat Foundation. 607 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: I know this one's kind of long. I don't know 608 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: how I feel about reading it. 609 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: Oh no, I was kidding one twelve epiphany, right, the 610 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: one that's like one sentence. 611 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 3: I was making a joke. I'm sorry, I apologize. Sorry, 612 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: my affect is so flat. I apologize. 613 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: I'm Marieno Horosa. Next time on Latino USA, voting rights 614 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: for non citizens. How a proposed bill in New York 615 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: could turn the city into a national model. 616 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 3: This is an opportunity for New York City to really 617 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: lead the country and lead the conversation in protecting and 618 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: expanding voting rights. 619 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: That's next time on Latino USA. 620 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: The cut is at the cut