1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Now that s due and I had awkwardly agreed to 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: become potential future co parents by putting embryos on ice, 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: the question was where we would be putting these embryos. 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: Where should I go to freeze? In New York It's 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: a paradox of choice. Within ten miles of me, there 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: were more than two dozen clinics. It felt paralyzed. This 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: seemed like a big decision. I'd talked to so many 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: women who would drain their savings accounts to walk away 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: with nothing. How could I make sure that I was 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: giving us the best chance for success As a woman 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: in her mid thirties, I had long been swimming in 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: targeted content for fertility clinics. 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: Meet Modern fertility, the test that teaches you about your 14 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: eggs and fertility hormones. Today, one in six couples has 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 2: trouble conceiving. So we built an easy way to test 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 2: fertility hormones before you're ready for kids. 17 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 3: Progeny is a leading provider of fertility benefits. 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: Our mission is to help people build their families, Introducing 19 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: kind Body, a new generation of women's health and fertility 20 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: care with a redesigned patient experience that's accessible and intuitive. 21 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: This last one kind Body. It stood out to me. 22 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: Kind Body came on my radar a couple of years 23 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: ago when they opened a location in the Bay Area, 24 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: where I was living at the time. I went to 25 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: their opening party. There was this faux flower arch in 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: the entryway and giant gold balloons that spelled out kind 27 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: Body Champagne, of course, and there were a lot of 28 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: women like me, thirties, professional made well jeans and black 29 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: ankle boots. And I'll admit it, I wasn't just there 30 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: as a reporter. This was right after that bad breakup 31 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: I talked about in episode one. Fast forward a few 32 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: years later, I'm now thinking seriously about freezing embryos, and 33 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious about kind Body. The company's pitch is that 34 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: it's trying to make fertility more friendly, unaccessible, unaffordable. The 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: fertility industry has a bad rap. For kind Body that 36 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,639 Speaker 1: presents an opportunity it stands out from its competitors. Venture 37 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: capital and private equity has poured into this space in 38 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: the last five years. Twenty twenty three was a record 39 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: year for fertility VC deals. Kind Body was the largest 40 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: of those deals. The strong celebrity investors like what Apatro 41 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: and Gabrielle Union. It's raised more than three hundred million 42 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: dollars and open thirty five clinics. But as I look closer, 43 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: it seemed like Kindbody's rapid rise was also illuminating cracks 44 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: in the system. I'm christ and v Brown, and this 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: is misconception. When you walk into Chymebody's New York City flagship, 46 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: it feels a bit like a high end salot. It's 47 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: in a storefront on a trendy part of Fifth Avenue. 48 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: There are plush couches with yellow throw pillows in artful disarray, 49 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: chai ceilings with ornate columns, a display of vitamins topped 50 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: with an overflowing floral arrangement. 51 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 4: Hopefully it doesn't look like your typical doctor's office. 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: No doctor I have ever been to Kind Body's founding 53 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: physician fahemos Asan gave me a tour. She told me 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: that the aesthetics played directly into kind Bodies mission. It's 55 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: hard to even compare a kind Body to me, which 56 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: I've visited in episode two, met looked like a doctor's office. 57 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 4: As you walk through intentionally, there's no white coats, there 58 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 4: are no degrees on the walls, our clinics are really 59 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 4: intentionally built to be a blank slate for our patients, 60 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 4: and so we're here to be a partner in your journey, 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 4: not that you're coming to our shrine. 62 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: And this kind of visibility brings in business. The company 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: even has a big yellow van that roams the streets 64 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: of cities offering fertility testing for cheap or even free 65 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: as a way to get women in the door. Accessibility 66 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: is also key to kind Body strategy. The company pitches 67 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: employers to offer fertility care as a benefit. In twenty 68 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: twenty two, for example, they struck a big deal with 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: Walmart while. 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: Mart employees more than two point two million workers, and 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: is teaming up with the fertility startup kind Body to 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: offer employees access to more than thirty fertility clinics and 73 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: IVF labs across the US. 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 5: It's opening up a brand new facility in northwest Arkansas. 75 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 6: We say we want to do good by doing well, 76 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 6: and so you do good by bringing down the cost 77 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 6: of care to make it more affordable to more people. 78 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 6: We want to democratize care. That's been our mission since 79 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 6: the beginning. 80 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: That's kind Body's founder and CEO, Gina Bartesi I told 81 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: her that Kindbody had first caught my attention because of 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: its big egg freezing push a few years ago. 83 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 6: The place you start when you're building a fertility company, 84 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 6: in my opinion, is you start with egg freezing because 85 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 6: they have discretionary income. Those women that are thinking about 86 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 6: egg frasing are not asking about success rates. The IVF 87 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 6: cases come later. 88 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: This strategy seems to be working for Kindbody. This May, 89 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: it opened to clinic in the ritzy Newport Peach, California, 90 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: and plans to open more in Charlotte, Miami, and San 91 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: Diego before the end of the year. The company told 92 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: me that since twenty twenty two, the number of new 93 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: patient visits has increased by seventy five percent. It has 94 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: also nearly doubled the number of employers who offer kind 95 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: Body as a benefit. It expects to get forty five 96 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: hundred women pregnant this year. They call the babies born 97 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: at kind Body kind babies. In other words, at kind Body, 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: business appears to be booming. Multiple clinics that I interviewed 99 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: told me that this sort of growth and investment is 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: good for patients. That cost savings and better quality care 101 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: gets passed on to patients when clinics are able to 102 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: expand into big nationwide clinic chains like kind Body, and 103 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: at least on the surface, kind Body have had something 104 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: very appealing to offer. Who doesn't want to feel like 105 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: they're going to a spa appointment instead of the doctor. 106 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. After my initial fertility testing way 107 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: back in episode one, I made an appointment at kind 108 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: Body for a freezing consultation based on the state of 109 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: my fertility. I wanted to know what to expect if 110 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: I froze. My appointment coincidentally happened to be with Nicolenoys, 111 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: who we heard from an episode one. She was the 112 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: pioneering doctor who helped take egg freezing mainstream. She was 113 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: working there at the time. Kind Body has a little 114 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: calculator in its app which it says it built using 115 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: clinical research. With my numbers, it estimated that I might 116 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: need three or even four egg retrievals to get the 117 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: desired twenty egg number. Kind Body, for the record, said 118 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: the calculator was just meant to quote empower patients with 119 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: information rather than offer a concrete clinical guidance. Nicole sounded 120 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: more optimistic. She said two cycles was all I would 121 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: likely need. I told her I would think about it. 122 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: The next day I checked my inbox. There was a 123 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: flurry of messages from kind Body. I'd been signed up 124 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: for the start of my egg freezing journey. I had 125 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: just nine simple steps to complete. There was an email 126 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: about cost and another email asking if I had any questions. 127 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: Then the next day a nurse called me. I told 128 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: her I was confused why anyone was calling me at all, because, 129 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: as I had told Nicole, I wasn't sure what I 130 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: was going to do or whether I was going to 131 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: do it with kind Body. Over the next few months, 132 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: I got countless emails urging me to do things like 133 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: join the summer freeze for twenty five percent off on 134 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: the kind Body app, I could just add a seventy 135 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: five hundred dollars egg freezing cycle to my shopping cart 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: and check out like I was impulse buying a pair 137 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: of very expensive shoes. It reminded me of this kind 138 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: Body infosition I had watched a few weeks earlier. 139 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 4: We want no regrets here. 140 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: We can't go back in time. 141 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 7: And we want to make sure that you have all 142 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 7: options available to you. 143 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 8: But the longer you wait to come in, so those 144 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 8: options start to join. 145 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: The kind Bodies. IVF prices range from about fourteen thousand 146 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: dollars to sixteen thousand dollars excluding medication, and depending on location. 147 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: It's New York. Prices were on par with what I 148 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: saw at other clinics in the city, and all of 149 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: those prices were higher than the average price for an 150 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: IVF cycle in the US, which is about twelve thousand 151 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: dollars according to Fertility IQ. I told Pasquale Patrizio about 152 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: my experience a kind Body and ask him when he 153 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: thought about it. He's the chief of the Center for 154 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: Reproductive Medicine and Infertility at the University of Miami, and 155 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: he studied the effect of private funding on the industry. 156 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: For me, what is really not correct, it's the pressure. 157 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: The fact that the next day you already got an 158 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: email and messages from the clinics. Okay, are you ready 159 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: to start? Well, you already told them listen, I want 160 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: to think about but now they are already contacting you 161 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: within twenty four hours. That's already a pressure for you 162 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: to do something that they start to put you in 163 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: the regret that if you don't do it, you are 164 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: really losing the opportunity out and you have now these 165 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: guilty feelings, and so it's a kind of psychological maneuvering. 166 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: When I told kind Body about my experience, they said, 167 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: the idea that it's pressuring patients is categorically false. While 168 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: it does engage in marketing campaigns like seasonal promotions. Kind 169 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: Body said, that's standard across the industry, and the right 170 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: it is standard. Are talked about some of those practices. 171 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: In an earlier episode Across the industry, Pasquali told me 172 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: clinics are often under pressure or peace investors, so they 173 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: push treatments on patients. He wasn't speaking specifically about kind Body. 174 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: Big fertility clinic chains could in theory, save consumers money 175 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: and make treatments more accessible by leveraging their market power 176 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: and lobbying for policy change. 177 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: So theoretically, by doing more volume, you should also be 178 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 3: able to offer less costly. You know, should be cheaper, 179 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: should be more economical. But this cost potentially cost saving 180 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 3: I so far, I've not been passed on to patients 181 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: or to payers. If you are working in a state 182 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: with the insurance that that are recovering. 183 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: Actually, by my calculations, when you adjust for inflation and 184 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: include things like the cost of medication. IVF has gotten 185 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: more expensive in the US over the last few decades. 186 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: Not cheaper are we doing good for patients? Law is 187 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: that the patient lost into these business transactions. 188 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: This tension between the bottom line and the patient. It's 189 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: existed for a long time. It goes back to how 190 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: IVF came up in America. Attempts to create special regulations 191 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: for IVF have failed time after time, and a lot 192 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: of that has to do with interference from the anti 193 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: abortion movement. Around the same time IVF scientists were making 194 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: big breakthroughs, the Supreme Court passed Roe v. Wade, which 195 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: rebbed up anti abortion activism. These activists also opposed IVF, 196 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: viewing the destruction of embryos in the course of IVF 197 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: the same as abortion. Their growing political force made lawmakers 198 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: hesitant to weigh in on IVF, even as countries like 199 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: the UK were creating new regulatory agencies for it. It 200 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: also led to a ban of federal embry or research funding. 201 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: There's also not widespread health insurance and fertility insurers normally 202 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: weigh in on the best treatments in IVF. Patients are 203 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: mostly left to figure out for themselves whether they're doctor 204 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: is telling them something they need is really something they need, 205 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: or whether they're being upsold. All that means fertility medicine 206 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: grew up as a business, a marketplace where clinics can 207 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: charge people tens of thousands of dollars to start a family, 208 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: and as the industry has rapidly expanded the scale of issues, 209 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: it's grown too will be right back. Not long after 210 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: I started reporting this podcast, my colleague Jackie Davelus, and 211 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: I both started hearing from people that there were problems 212 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: at kind Body that weren't quite as visible as what 213 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: I had experienced. 214 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 9: I had gotten a tip from a user on Reddit 215 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 9: that was commenting on kind of their experience at the company. 216 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 9: They were a former employee, and they basically told me 217 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,359 Speaker 9: you should really look into those laboratories where these IVF 218 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 9: treatments are really happening. 219 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: She found that there had been a handful of incidents, 220 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: particularly after the acquisition of another fertility clinic chain. 221 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 10: Embryos had been mishandled as a result of understaffing and 222 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 10: inconsistent lab protocols. Three of these accidents occurred in Kindbody's 223 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 10: Bryant Park lab in New York City, including one where 224 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 10: a patient's last embryo was damaged after accidentally being left 225 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 10: out in room temperature. Another incident occurred in a Kindbody 226 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 10: clinic in Chicago, where staff couldn't find a patient's embryo. 227 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: The patient wanted her embryo genetically tested, but staff couldn't 228 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: find it when they looked where records indicated it should 229 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: have been. 230 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 10: It was eventually found, but staff had to rifle through 231 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 10: cride tanks to find it. 232 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: Kinbody told us that these incidents were a fraction of 233 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: the more than seven thousand freezing and IVF procedures that 234 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: they've handled. The company said its incident rate zero point 235 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: two percent, on par with the rate found in a 236 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen study. They said they weren't understaffed, and they 237 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: disputed that there was an escalation in lab issues as 238 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: the company grew. Some of the employees I talked to 239 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: actually said that even though Cobody's labs did face some issues, 240 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: the equipment and standards at Combody were much better than 241 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: in other clinics where they'd worked. Issues and accidents in 242 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: the lab are by no means unique to any one clinic. 243 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: They're happening across the industry. There have been other allegations 244 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: of things going wrong, like a recent lawsuit that alleges 245 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: a California clinic called Ovation Fertility destroyed embryos belonging to 246 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: at least eleven people when an incubator was cleaned with 247 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: hydrogen peroxide. The suit says that the clinic went ahead 248 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: with transferring the ruined embryos for pregnancy, not realizing what 249 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: had happened. A spokesperson for their company said it was 250 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: an isolated incident which impacted a very small number of 251 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: patients and that the company will continue to implement and 252 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: enforce rigorous protocols to keep patients safe. And then there 253 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: are the cases that have serious ramifications beyond what happens 254 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: at any one facility. In Alabama, for example, several patients 255 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: sued a fertility clinic after a hospital patient wandered into 256 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: the room where their embryos were being stored and took 257 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: them out of the freezer, destroying them. The case went 258 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: all the way to the state Supreme Court, which ruled 259 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: in February that the patients could sue the clinic for 260 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: wrongful death because they are embryos were children. That decision 261 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: temporarily halted IVF procedures at clinics across the state, with 262 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: clinicians worrying they could be sued or worse anytime something 263 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: happened to an embryo in the normal course of treatment. 264 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: But it also put a giant national spotlight on problems 265 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: that can occur away from patient's eyes in IVF labs. 266 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 5: The issue of fertility misconduct, injuries, mishaps at fertility clinics 267 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 5: and you know, almost always in the labs of fertility clinics, 268 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 5: is a much larger issue than any of us knows, 269 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 5: including myself. 270 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: This is on a wolf. He's an attorney, and when 271 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: it comes to fertility industry shenanigans, he's kind of seen 272 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: it all. 273 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 5: I cannot tell you the real scope of this problem 274 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 5: because there is no reporting requirements, there is no central database. 275 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 5: There is nothing that the public can turn to to 276 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 5: understand the scope or magnitude of the problem of fertility 277 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 5: center misconduct. 278 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: Not long after he took its first fertility case, he 279 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: started getting a ton of calls. 280 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 5: We started getting phone calls from other people, folks who said, oh, 281 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 5: my embryos were also dropped on the grounds my clinic 282 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 5: also lost our embryos. Our clinic transferred the wrong embryos 283 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 5: to us. You know, the list can go on and on. 284 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: He developed a bit of a reputation for these cases. 285 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 7: Attorney Adam Wolf tells CBS News he plans to file 286 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 7: a class action lawsuit against the San Francisco clinic this 287 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 7: week on behalf of the patients. He also filed a 288 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 7: second lawsuit against the Ahuja Medical Center outside Cleveland. 289 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: Adam's firm even purchased the domain lost embryos dot com. 290 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: Adam says he's handled more than one thousand fertility mishap 291 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: and misconduct cases over the last decade or so. In 292 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: one of his biggest cases, in twenty eighteen, more than 293 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: thirty five hundred eggs, embryos, and other genetic material were 294 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: lost when a cryo tank failed at Pacific Fertility Center 295 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. Has firm represented about one hundred patients. 296 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: A jury awarded five patients nearly fifteen million dollars. That 297 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: verdict was appealed and eventually settled out of court. But 298 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: I heard this a lot when talking to him. I'm 299 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: not allowed to talk about it. Adam can't talk about 300 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot of his cases because they settle. 301 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 5: And I would say in eighty or ninety percent of 302 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 5: our cases, we never even file a lawsuit because it 303 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 5: is settled with the clinic on terms that include confidentiality, 304 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 5: such that the public never finds out about it. 305 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: This is why we really have no idea how Cammon 306 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: these kinds of mistakes are. Clinics are required to report 307 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: their success rates, but they aren't required to report their errors. 308 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: A twenty twenty study found one hundred and thirty three 309 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: lawsuits were filed in the previous decade over loss discarded 310 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: or damaged for his in embryos. That is probably only 311 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: a fraction of cases. Adam's caseload a loan seems to 312 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: prove that. Adam says that a lot of the time, 313 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: what goes wrong as a genuine accident. 314 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 5: A lab tech looks up, you know, thinking about what 315 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 5: movie he or she is going to see that night, 316 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 5: and just mixes up embryo one and two. Or there's 317 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 5: a labeling problem and you know, couple a's embryo is 318 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 5: either not labeled or labeled with the names of couple B. Right, 319 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 5: And you could see how that can happen. You can 320 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 5: people make mistakes, I get it. 321 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes, of course it's more nefarious than that You've probably 322 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: heard about people doing twenty three in me and finding 323 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: out that they have all these siblings they'd never heard 324 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: of because a doctor covertly impregnated his own patients. All 325 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: of this is part of why industry critics lobby for 326 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: more regulation. They argue that fewer federal research dollars and 327 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: sparse insurance coverage has let business decisions become a major 328 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: driving force and setting practice standards. So the argument goes, 329 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: we need more regulation to prevent that. One expert suggested 330 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: fortility clinics should be treated like hospitals, which are required 331 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: to report so called never events, the kind of stuff 332 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: that should never happen, like leaving a sponge in a 333 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: patient during surgery or perhaps implanting the wrong embryo in someone. 334 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: People who work in the industry argue that it does 335 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: have the proper amount of oversight. 336 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 3: The labs are very regulated. In order to be having 337 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: a laboratory data going to perform em brology work, they 338 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: need to be cap inspected, which is the College of 339 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 3: American Pathologies. They need to be a clear inspected. The 340 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: FDA also comes and does surprise visits. As an average 341 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: we have every two years, all. 342 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: The same rules apply to fertility doctors and labs that 343 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: apply to any medical doctors or labs. In the US, 344 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: most clinics are also members of industry groups that have 345 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: their own sets of standards. Other countries do set more 346 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: rules for fertility practices, though, the UK, for example, as 347 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: a special regulatory body just for fertility clinics. They have 348 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: to get a special license and follow all the guidelines 349 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: in a three hundred and thirty page rule book, including 350 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: requiring two people to always id embryos when they're moving 351 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: around a lab so there are no mix ups. There 352 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: are no specific national fertility clinic regulations like that in 353 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: the US. 354 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 5: We need to have checks and balances in the labs 355 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 5: of fertility clinics that greatly minimize and hopefully eradicate those 356 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 5: types of errors. 357 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: He wasn't talking about any one specific clinic, but one 358 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: thing that really struck me was that his cases are 359 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: often against high volume clinics. 360 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 5: They're just doing a ton of procedures and it's all 361 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 5: happening very quickly, and there's pressure to get it done, 362 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 5: and it leads to mistakes, even if those clinics have 363 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 5: proper standard operating procedures or SOPs. They're often not followed. 364 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: This explains why we are hearing about more and more 365 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: of these mistakes as clinics backed by venture capital and 366 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: private equity are under pressure to dial up the volume. 367 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: Some patients don't have much insight into that side of things. 368 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: They have no way of knowing if their clinic has 369 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: settled a ton of lawsuits that never made it into 370 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: the public eye. As I considered where I should freeze 371 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: my own numbers, I kept thinking about this. I like 372 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: to make decisions based on data, and most of the 373 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: data I wanted was either non existent or not that reassuring. 374 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: There still wasn't much data on women who had returned 375 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: after freezing their eggs. One reason. YU study found that 376 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: just thirty nine percent of women who did try to 377 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: use their eggs wound up having a baby, so that 378 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: number was high er if you were under thirty eight 379 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: like me. Eventually I decided to freeze my eggs at NYU. 380 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: It was a pioneer in egg freezing and still does 381 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot of freezing research. It had a good IVF 382 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: success rate according to CDC data that I looked at 383 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: after going off birth control and waiting a few months. 384 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: It was finally time to start my freezing cycle. A 385 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: box of drugs the size of a big beach cooler 386 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: a my apartment. Inside were all the supplies I would 387 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: need to rub up my reproductive system. Four types of 388 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: hormones and a shit ton of needles. 389 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 8: Hold the pen in one hand and with the other hand, 390 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 8: pinch a fold of skin around the injection area. 391 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: Okay, it's a big boy, have my GOSPATRITTI should just count? Okay, one, 392 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: two of three? Nope, I still didn't go okay, I'm 393 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: not ready. Cannatch it one more time. 394 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 8: Ensured the entire needle straight into the skin at a 395 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 8: forty five to ninety degree angle. Press the dose snob 396 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 8: down as far as it will go. 397 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I think I'm ready. One, two, three, I was 398 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: in it. Now the dose reads zero, so I guess 399 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: I did it right. I fucking did it right. Every 400 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: morning and night I was stabbing myself in the stomach 401 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: with two long needles full of hormones that would make 402 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: my bodies production go into hyperdrive. It's day two. I'm 403 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: gonna try this whole injection thing. Hopefully it's slightly less 404 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: frustrating than it was yesterday. 405 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 6: Day three. 406 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 4: There we go. 407 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: Okay, second vial of drugs? Oh Saturday? Does that make 408 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: this day four of my cycle? I think I might 409 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: be off book, but I'm terrified of screwing up, so 410 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna watch the video quickly before I do it. 411 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: Day five of my fertility cycle. Fuck, I just dropped 412 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: the needle. Okay, it's okay. I think I can sterilize it. 413 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: I was responding well to the drugs, but I was 414 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: also so tired and bloated. I'm just generally feeling like crap. 415 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: Eighth day of my cycle. The tiredness is really what's 416 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: killing me at this point. Mix mix, mix, mix mix. 417 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: Needle is ready. Never get here. It wouldn't be long 418 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: before I would know whether this crazy bet would actually 419 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: pay off. So are you ready for it? 420 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 8: Yeah? 421 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 5: What's the news? 422 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 4: Tell me? 423 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: That's next time? On the final episode of Misconception. This 424 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: series was written and reported by me Christen V. Brown. 425 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: It was produced by Jilda Decarly and Stacey Wong and 426 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: edited by Cynthia Koons. Additional research was done by Tana's Mcjohnny. 427 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: It was engineered by Blake Maples. Our theme music was 428 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: composed and performed by Hannis Brown Special thanks to Shelly Banjo, 429 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Randy Shapiro, Anna Maazarakis, Jeff Grocott, Lauras Andlenko, and Creighton Harrison. 430 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening. 431 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: If you want to binge the whole series early, go 432 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com and hit subscribe. Then connect your 433 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com subscription to Apple Podcasts, or listen as 434 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: we release a new episode each week. See you next time.