1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a best 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: selling author and a staff writer for The New York Times. 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: Jonathan Mahler's first book, Ladies and Gentlemen, The Bronx Is Burning, 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: was adapted into a mini series for ESPN. His second book, 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: The Challenge, won the Scribes Book Award in two thousand 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: and nine. In the world of sports journalism, Jonathan Mahler 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: has been featured in the anthology book series The Best 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: American Sports Writing, and has received numerous journalism and media 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: awards throughout his career. Mahler's latest book, released this past summer, 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: is entitled The Gods of New York The Tumultuous Eighties 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: from Donald Trump to the Tompkins Square Riots. Raised in 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: Palm Springs, California, I was curious where Jonathan Mahler's fascination 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: with New York originated from. 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: I was born in New York. Both my parents were 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: New Yorkers. My father was a working class Jewish kid 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: from the Bronx who you got himself into Bronx science 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: and went off to medical school, also in New York, 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: and was offered a job out in California at a 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: hospital out there, and you know, he had barely left 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: New York, and I thought he was like, well, this 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: is the dream, you know, moved to California, raised my 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: family out there. So we moved to Palm Springs, and 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: my mom hated it from day one and couldn't wait 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: to move back to New York and find you way 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 2: there for a while. I was there, really my whole childhood. 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: I moved back. 28 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: I was in college when they moved back, and they 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: actually made a deal because my mom was a smoker, 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: lifelong smoker, and my father's a doctor. My father said, 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: if you quit smoking, we'll move back to New York. 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: And then what happened next was that they moved back 33 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: to New York. My mom quit smoking. She was so miserable. 34 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: My dad said, please start smoking again. So she got 35 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: everything she wanted. She got to move back to New 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: York and continue smoking. 37 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: What was it about New York that he he didn't 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,279 Speaker 1: want to go, he wanted to stay. 39 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: Well, he just you know, he was a workaholic, and 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: he was so devoted to his patients that he for 41 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: him his life was going to the hospital, seeing patients 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: in his office, making it a practice. 43 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: He had a practice. 44 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: He worked seven days a week, and so you know, 45 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: he had a little, a little snippet of time on 46 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Sunday afternoon when he would sit by the pool and 47 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: you know, read a medical journal. So for him, it 48 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: was it worked out great. But my mom couldn't stand it. 49 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to me that you have written three books, correct, 50 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: The Box is Burning, Challenge, and then this book now 51 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: Gods of New York. They were born in New York, 52 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: but you're not a lifelong New Yorker. You know, a 53 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: big part of your youth was outside New York. What 54 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: is it about New York? Because I mean, we both 55 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: everybody has their opinions as to why do we stay? Yeah, yeah, 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: it's so challenging, it's so tough. Why do we stay? Yeah? 57 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: It's funny because I grew up in California, but I 58 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: always felt like a New Yorker because both my parents 59 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: were in New Yorker. I'd rooted for the Yankees and 60 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: the Giants and the Knicks. Really from birth, inherited that 61 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: from my father, and we would come back every you know, 62 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: of every chance we got. My mom would bring us 63 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: back to New York, which was, you know, really every year. 64 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: I mean we'd come at least once, so I felt 65 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: always connected to New York. It was always like the 66 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 2: place where I should be. 67 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: Living, I think. 68 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: And by the time I got out of college, my 69 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: parents had moved back here, and so it became kind 70 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 2: of naturally the place to move. And once you kind 71 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: of settle in in New York, it's so hard to 72 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: leave if it worked for you. Yeah, exactly, particularly because 73 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: not only because it's so hard to sort of find 74 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: a way to make it work that once you do, 75 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: you don't want to give it up, but also because 76 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: New York is it's always changing. You know, you're always 77 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: going to new neighborhoods, discovering new neighborhoods, new restaurants. Your 78 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: life here, I feel like it doesn't feel static in 79 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: the way that it might in other places, so you 80 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: just don't get bored with it. 81 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: I think, well, I think that if you have an 82 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: escape from New York, that makes everything a lot different. 83 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: If you can't go anywhere else, if you have no 84 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: other option, New York can be very very onerous in 85 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: that way of your spending the summer there in the 86 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: hot summer. But now for you, where did you go 87 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: to College of Northwestern? I went to Northwestern? Yea in Chicago, 88 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: And did you study journalism there? 89 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: I studied English literature there actually, but I did start 90 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: working on the paper there, so that's kind of what 91 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: got me launched. So even though I was an English major, 92 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: I worked on the college paper. 93 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: Why, well, what attracted you to then? You know? 94 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: I guess I feel like as I kind of worked 95 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: my way through college and started to think about what 96 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: I might want to do, I realized that the only 97 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: thing I knew I was like pretty good at was 98 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: thinking and writing. And then the idea of you know, 99 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: going out into the world and not spending all my 100 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: days kind of at a desk was appealing to me. 101 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: The idea that I might have a career kind of 102 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: engaging with people and thinking and writing reporting, reporting. Yeah, 103 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: so I thought I would maybe be interested in giving 104 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: it a try. So I did it at my senior 105 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: year really at Northwestern, and then I graduated and thought, well, 106 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: I'm going I'm going to give this a shot and 107 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: see how it goes. Moved to New York and try 108 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: to be a journalist and if it works out, great 109 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: and if it doesn't. 110 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: How did it begin? 111 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: My first job was actually at the McNeil LAIRR News Hour. 112 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: How did you pull that off? How? 113 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: I just applied for an internship there and remarkably was 114 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: able to get one, which I loved and you know, 115 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: sort of sad to see what's happening to public television. 116 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: Now. 117 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: Of course that's a separate story, but I felt like 118 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to. 119 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: Write how long were you there with them? 120 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: I was there about six months, I think, so recall Yeah, 121 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: not very long, no, because it was an internship. 122 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: It was just to get me. Well, what did you 123 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: pick up on that in terms of I mean, obviously 124 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: I liked both of them and I liked that show, 125 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: but it was among the starchiest news programs in my life. Yeah, 126 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: those guys were pretty old school. Did you absorb that? Like, 127 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm here and what do they want from me? 128 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: I mean what they wanted from me mostly was was 129 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: lunch orders. 130 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: And coffee, but it was that face. 131 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think I occasionally, you know, contributed 132 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: some research to some stories. 133 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: Was basically the extent of my work. 134 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: It was a real inter yeah, true internship, but I 135 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: mean those guys were amazing. I mean, Robert McNeil was 136 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: an inspiring figure just because he had been a foreign correspondent. 137 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: He had just he had this kind of gravatas, like 138 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: the kind of qualter Cronkite type gravatas, and he was 139 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: so cultured and so well read, and it was just 140 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: he was a certain kind of newsman that you just 141 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: felt like, Wow, that guy's amazing, Right. 142 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: They took the obligation very seriously, totally. Yeah, Yeah, and 143 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: he loved it. Where do you go after McNeil? 144 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: Lay? 145 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: After that, I worked at the Wall Street Journal's wire service, 146 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: the Dow Jones News Service, and I was a wire 147 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: service reporter there. I mean a lot of people probably 148 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: even know what a wire service is, because I think 149 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: that them barely exist. 150 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 151 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: They were these kind of news services that provided stories 152 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: to newspapers all around the world, and they worked on 153 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: a very kind of hyperactive schedule. Let's say, I mean 154 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: you were kind of writing all the time. Newsrooms would 155 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: have these little kind of teletype machines and they would 156 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: spit out these stories from the wire services, and they 157 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: would rip them off and use them ass copy in 158 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: their newspapers. So I did that writing about you know, 159 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 2: financial news for four years and. 160 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: That was. 161 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it was grueling, grouling. 162 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: What about it made you stay? Well, that's a good question. 163 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: I was sort of moving up. 164 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: I started as a real kind of general assignment reporter, 165 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: where I was I was really just writing. I'm essentially 166 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: rewriting press releases, you know, forty press releases a day. 167 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: And then I became a proper reporter and so I 168 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, was able to kind of grow 169 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: a little bit there, even though I didn't really love 170 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: the job. So I was kind of looking for what 171 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: I wanted to do next at that point, and I 172 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: knew that I wanted to be writing less frequently and 173 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: longer stories. And I found my way. I started freelancing 174 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: for a newspaper, and then I kind of found my 175 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: way there on Staff, which was a Jewish weekly newspaper. 176 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: Called The Forward. 177 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: Yes, it's an amazing institution. I mean it's been around 178 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: for well over one hundred years, over one hundred and 179 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: fifty years. It was a you know, it was sort 180 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: of the newspaper for Yiddish speaking Jewish immigrants who came 181 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: to New York in the early twentieth century and you know, 182 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: a sort of a in the modern era. It was 183 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: kind of reinvented as an English language newspaper. So so 184 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: I worked there for a number of years and I 185 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: love that it was. 186 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: It was great. I remember reading in the book that 187 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: you're Jewish and your wife Issima is not Jewish, although 188 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: you convinced her to have a Jewish wedding. And she 189 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: refers to the harrowing experience of you going to a 190 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: New England Christmas. 191 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: That was in an essay I wrote. I think, yes, yeah, no, 192 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: she's a writer, she is an editor. So the first 193 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: Christmas I went to her grandmother, who's no longer with us, 194 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, exactly. She had a little Christmas ornament 195 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 2: with my name on it, which was you know, it 196 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: was hard enough to be going to Christmas, but let 197 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: alone have an ornament with my name on it. 198 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: Was christ You know, it's a very sweet gesture. But 199 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: I was. I was surprised how long went the forward, 200 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: How many years I. 201 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: Was there for? 202 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: Five years? Wow, So you really build a foundation. I did. Well. 203 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 2: It takes a while, you think, so, yeah, I don't 204 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: even believe me, right, Yeah, I guess in each of 205 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: these jobs, I felt like I was still learning and 206 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 2: kind of growing and you know, finding new things to do, 207 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: so I could stick around. And also because I was 208 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: sort of here in New York, there would have been 209 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: opportunities at newspapers around the country, But if I wanted 210 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: to stay in New York, it's harder. 211 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: And the forward were you married when you did the 212 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: on the forward? That was after the forward? 213 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: That was after Yeah. So then I actually was at 214 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: my next job where I met my wife, which was 215 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: at Talk magazine, but Tina exactly. 216 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and Tina said she thought that it could 217 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: work if one for COVID and Harvey bailing out from 218 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: his financial commitment to the thing. She thought it was 219 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: a really worthy project. Did you agree? I did. 220 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: I thought it was a great magazine. It really was 221 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 2: just starting out. I mean, I think in the end, 222 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: I started working there a year before launch, so to 223 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: me it feels like it was longer. But I think 224 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: that the magazine really only survived for two years. I 225 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: loved working for Tina. 226 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: It was fun. I'd never worked at a glossy magazine. 227 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: It was a whole other world. Describe that it. 228 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: Was just so different. I mean, particularly because I, you know, 229 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: I was at a. I had come from this, you know, 230 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 2: weekly Jewish newspaper where basically if you took a source 231 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: out to lunch, that meant like splitting the cost of 232 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: a tuna sandwich. And then suddenly I met, you know, this, 233 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: this glossy magazine where you you know, you have a 234 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: proper expense account. 235 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: You know, yes, you want exactly. 236 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: You know, even even raw tuna. 237 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: So it was wild. 238 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: I think the idea was that it was obviously kind 239 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: of celebrity driven, but it was also literary and classy. 240 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: And and fun. 241 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: You know, I really enjoyed it, but it was coming 242 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: at the tail end of the age of the glossy magazine. 243 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: What was a story you wrote for her that you 244 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: that you enjoyed. I'll tell you what I remember, because 245 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: it's the one celebrity, real proper celebrity profile I've ever written. 246 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: It was when Ridley Scott was making Gladiator and I 247 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: flew over to London to profile Russell Crowe and to 248 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: write about the movie. I was in London for what 249 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 2: was in the end, I think an hour long interview 250 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: in Russell Crowe's hotel room. I was in London for 251 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: a week, kind of waiting to get the nod to 252 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: come over and interview, and he obviously had no interest 253 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: in talking to me. You know, it was kind of 254 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: an education I think in the kind of journalism I 255 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: didn't want to do, but you know, an experience like 256 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: I'm glad I had. 257 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: But did he come around when you were with him? 258 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: Was he really for me? Was he? No? 259 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: No, he was diffident the whole time. He had no 260 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: interest in being there. I'm sure he had been forced 261 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 2: to do it. And Ridley Scott was much better. Actually, 262 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: I then went out to La and he was he's 263 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: a salesman. He is a salesman, and I think he 264 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: was interested in talking about his movie. Russell Crowe was 265 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: not interested in talking about his performance. 266 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you. 267 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: There was one other fun story that I did there. 268 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: There was a moment in time when the Hermitage Museum 269 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: in Saint Petersburg, Russia, had just made an agreement with 270 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: the Venetian Hotel, which had just opened in Las Vegas, 271 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: and they were going to send some of their art 272 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: over to the Venetian and so there was going to 273 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: be you know, there were going to be paintings from 274 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: the Hermitage in one of the world's most famous museums 275 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: in the Venetian Hotel as part of this agreement. So 276 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: I went over to Saint Petersburg and spent a few 277 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: days in the Hermitage and interviewed people there, and you know, 278 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: in the middle of winter, it was kind of just 279 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 2: an unbelievable city, just the most beautiful city. And then 280 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: from there I came back to the United States and 281 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: went to Las Vegas to the Venetian Hotel. So it 282 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: was the biggest kind of you know, contrast of reporting 283 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: trips you could possibly imagine. 284 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you read talk how long really until it folded? 285 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 2: Which was three years, I guess in the end, because 286 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: I started before launch. 287 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, then where do you go? 288 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: That's when I sold my first book, which was Ladies 289 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: and Gentlemen, The Bronx Is Burning. So I started writing 290 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: that book, and I also started freelancing for the New 291 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: York Times magazine. So I was sort of doing those 292 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 2: kind of in tandem for a little while until I 293 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: got my book done. 294 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: Why the book about the Bronx was your first book? 295 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: You've been writing for a while now, and you're going 296 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: to write this your first book. 297 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was my first book. I mean, it goes 298 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: back a little bit to what we were talking about 299 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 2: before that. You know, New York had always had this 300 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: kind of mythic hold over me, you know, because my 301 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: father had. 302 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: Grown up in both my parents had grown up in 303 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: New York. My father grew up in the Bronx, and. 304 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: It was always, as I said, the place that I 305 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: was kind of supposed to be. I you know, I 306 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: had this kind of connection to it, but I also 307 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: felt like I didn't know it as well as I 308 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: wanted to, and I didn't know its history as well 309 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 2: as I wanted to. So, you know, when you're when 310 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: you're setting out, especially when you're setting out to write 311 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 2: your first book, you feel like I need a subject 312 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: that I know it's going to hold my interest because 313 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: this is going to be hard. And so it was 314 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 2: you know, New York, and you know New York in 315 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 2: the seventies, which was when I had my first kind 316 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: of when I first came here, my first images of 317 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: New York were really New York in that era, in 318 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 2: the seven yeah, exactly seven eight. And you stayed for 319 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 2: how long on that trip as a child, we would 320 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: come for you know, always a couple of weeks. We 321 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: would stay in an apartment that belonged to a friend 322 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: of my parents. 323 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: Summertime. 324 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: Summertime, we would go to you know, I go to 325 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: Yankee Games. We would go to see you know, we 326 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: went and saw show Sweeney Todd. We would see shows 327 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: on Broadway. We would sometimes go to you know, Gilbert 328 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: and Sullivan Light Opera. We would go to Rockefeller Center. 329 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 2: We would just kind of do all the things you 330 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: do here. I just felt like I knew it was 331 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: a subject that had a kind of hold over me. 332 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: Somewhat surprisingly, you maintain memories as a seven year old 333 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: I did. I mean just so interesting. 334 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, nothing too detailed, but just you know, 335 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: almost like movie images that you sort of have a 336 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: vague recollection of, and like kind of a sense of 337 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: almost aesthetic memories in a way, especially with the first book, 338 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: I mean, you really don't know what you're doing. I 339 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: did so much research that didn't make its way into 340 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: the book. I talked to so many people, I read 341 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: so many books. I mean, in a funny way, a 342 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: lot of that material didn't appear in the book. But 343 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: you have to kind of master a subject in a 344 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: way to write a book about it, and that does 345 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: mean a reading widely and talking to people widely and 346 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: going way really beyond the subject of the book to 347 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: feel count yeah, like to just feel marinated in it 348 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: and to feel kind of comfortable a lot. 349 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's going to stay out, ye, going to 350 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: make the cut. 351 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: No, No, that's exactly it. The book was sort of 352 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: partly about the Yankees from that year, nineteen seventy seven, 353 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: because that had been again this team I followed from 354 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: afar out in California, and I was kind of obsessed 355 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: with in the way that you are when you're a kid, 356 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: you become obsessed with sports teams. And then part of 357 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: the book was just about the city and the life 358 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: of the city, the nineteen seventy seven Blackout, the Son 359 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: of Sam, and these were just things that I as 360 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: I researched, I just got kind of more and more into. 361 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: It's the great thing about writing a book is that 362 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: you know, as you get to know a subject more 363 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: in a way, it becomes more captivating. 364 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: It sort of pulls you in. Who was the imprint 365 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: for our Strauss and Jeru and how did you pull 366 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: that off? Getting a book published? Stuff? 367 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: I wrote a propose, I had a good agent. I 368 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: rewrote the proposal a couple of times, and they bought it. Yeah, 369 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: and then they published my second. 370 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: Book too, Author and journalist Jonathan Mahler. If you enjoy 371 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: conversations with intrepid writers, check out my episode with Lawrence Wrights. 372 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 3: When people go into scientology, they don't you know, they 373 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: don't go into it because it's a cult. They go 374 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: into it oftentimes because they're looking for something such as well, 375 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes they're spiritual seekers or they're you know, 376 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: you might be one of those people that goes down 377 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: in the subway and someone says, would you like to 378 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: take our personality tests? And you know, well, if we 379 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: see that you have a little trouble of communicating with people, 380 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: that's true, Well we you know, we can what you say, 381 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 3: we can help you with that. We we have a 382 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 3: course that can help you in your relationships. And the 383 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: truth is, oftentimes they can help. It's like going into therapy. 384 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: People do benefit from it. So this initial exposure to 385 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: scientology is often very positive to people. 386 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Lawrence Wright, go 387 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Jonathan 388 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 1: Mahler details how his first book, The Bronx, is Burning 389 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: wound up becoming a mini series for ESPN. I'm Alec 390 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. Before joining the 391 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: staff at the New York Times, Jonathan Mahler was a 392 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: sports columnist for Bloomberg View. He then became a contributing 393 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: writer for The New York Times, where he covered everything 394 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: from baseball to politics. From Mahler, I wondered what it 395 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: was like transitioning from freelancing to full time staff writer. 396 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: Actually, for a while I worked from home, and then 397 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: I rented an office for a little while in Dumbo 398 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, and I would go there every day and write, 399 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: and then eventually I went full time on staff at 400 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: the time, So they gave you a desk, they gave 401 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: me a desk. Yeah, Actually, now we don't even I 402 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: don't even have a dedicated desk. We have kind of 403 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: floating desks in the magazine for. 404 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: The writers, and I, you know, I don't. You're still 405 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: working with them now, I am still there. Yeah. And 406 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: when you first walked into as I call it the 407 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: kremlin there to work at the Times, what was the 408 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: feeling you had. Did you feel the kind of halft 409 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: of that experience? 410 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, and you know, initially the Times moved so 411 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: it kind of, you know, just a few blocks, but 412 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: it moved into this very kind of you know, beautiful 413 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 2: sort of modern building. 414 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: You know, it's an amazing office. I mean, I love it. 415 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: I love being in the building. I love being at 416 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: the Times. And it's like, you know, in particularly now, 417 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: I mean, you feel like the work that the Times 418 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: still does feels more important than ever and it's an 419 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: amazing workplace filled with just very smart, dedicated people. 420 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: And you still feel when you first got there, you 421 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: felt you were with a very special crowd of. 422 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 2: People totally from the beginning till the present day. 423 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it really is. It's a special place. Yeah. 424 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: Now when you write the book Challenge and you're immersed 425 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: in this, a Guantanamo correct Yeah, is one of the 426 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: big backdrops there, exactly. I've asked other writers who write 427 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: to kind of embrace difficult material. How do you manage 428 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: your feelings while you're doing some of this work? You 429 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: do ever get really really down and kind of overwhelmed? 430 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that 431 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 2: you sort of learn and I don't even know if 432 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: you learn it, it just you learn it in the 433 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: way that it's just sort of necessary is a certain 434 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: degree of detachment. I think, not so much that you 435 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: become kind of inured to you know, what you're seeing 436 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: and hearing, but there's a sort of a pursuit of 437 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 2: a story. There's a kind of a mindset that I 438 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 2: think you get into when you're sort of on a 439 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: story and you're pursuing a story. And it's funny because 440 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: I think for journalists who sort of do this, you 441 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: don't even really think about it until you kind of 442 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: step outside and you know, you're asking a question like 443 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: that question, because it doesn't feel like you don't feel detached, 444 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: but it's what you have to do to to kind 445 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: of pursue the story and to not feel defeated by 446 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: it or crushed by it. 447 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: You know. 448 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: In the case of Guantanamo, I mean I think I 449 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: just you know, I spent some time down there. I 450 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: spent some time in Yemen because the sort of main 451 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: one of the main characters of the book was a 452 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: Yomeni detainey, and so I wanted to go over and 453 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: meet his wife and meet his family, and you know, 454 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: he was being held on Guantanama Bay with you know, 455 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 2: his future was very uncertain she had no contact with him. 456 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: I mean it was, you know, it was obviously, you know, 457 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: sort of powerful and sad to be kind of reporting 458 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: on it. But at the same time, I felt like 459 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: I had a job to do. I felt like I 460 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: needed information I needed for my book and for actually 461 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 2: for a magazine story I did before the book, And 462 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: so you just sort of find your way through it. 463 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Is there ever a situation, it doesn't matter whether it's 464 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: The Times or the Wall Street Journal, that you want 465 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: to do something and you check yourself. Do you say 466 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: to yourself, I don't want to bother pitching this idea 467 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: because they're probably going to say no, do your censor yourself. 468 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 2: I don't quite censor myself. I would say that for 469 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: an idea to work, it has to be something that 470 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: people other than me are going to. 471 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: Be interested in. 472 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: So I try to sort of edit myself, I guess, 473 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: rather than censor myself. Though I think it's also okay 474 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: to kind of go with the passion project now and then, 475 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: or try to go with a passion project. I probably 476 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 2: should try to do more of it. In fact, yeah, 477 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: I think it's harder. 478 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: How did ESPN become the venue for the Bronx's Burning series. 479 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the book kind of moves back and forth between 480 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: the Yankee season and the year in the life of 481 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: the city. So they were interested in obviously in the 482 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: kind of the Yankee story, which is an amazing story 483 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: because it's kind of Reggie Jackson and Billy Martin are 484 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: just locked in this kind of you know, amazing like 485 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 2: duel over the course of the time. Yes, yeah, it 486 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 2: was some crazy stuff. And Reggie Jackson was this like, 487 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: you know, this kind of larger than life figure in 488 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 2: the city, and so is Billy Martin in his way. 489 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 2: So they were in did in the baseball story. Of course, 490 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: when they came to me to option it and develop it, 491 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: they also said, oh, we're going to you know, we're 492 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: interested in the city stuff too. All that kind of 493 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: I think kind of fell out along the way and 494 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: it really became a kind of a story of the 495 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: Yankee season with kind of the city and the kind 496 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: of against the backdrop of the city, you know, So 497 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: it was sort of half the book in a way, 498 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 2: I guess. 499 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: Then you had the movie adaptation of the Challenge and 500 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: that was in clooney Land or whatever it was. And 501 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: then what happened exactly. 502 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it never it sort of it died in 503 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: clooney Land, as I guess sometimes happens. Yeah, I don't 504 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 2: know exactly what happened. I know that there was a script. 505 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 2: Aaron Sorkin actually wrote wrote a script, right, and I 506 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: don't know quite what happened, but you know, they renewed 507 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 2: the option and then I guess for whatever reason, the 508 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: script didn't work out, and then it just kind of 509 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: somehow died. 510 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: So when you do this book, now, when you're doing 511 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: The Gods of New York, you use I mean, most 512 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: writers are very specific and very intentional with their words. 513 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: What was it that you felt the word gods applied 514 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: to these people? Why did you choose that word? Yeah, well, 515 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: it's funny. 516 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: That's a good place to start because the title is 517 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: kind of a little controversial, because you could read this 518 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: as what, you know, are you calling you know, Donald 519 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: Trump and Rudy Giuliani gods? And I think the idea is, really, 520 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: I know, the ideas is the kind of the Greek gods, 521 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: the sort of the gods who can be vengeful, who 522 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: can be narcissistic, and so really the ideas just these 523 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: were larger than life figures who were elevated to this stature, 524 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: you know, by the kind of culture of the city, 525 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: by the tabloids, and so they kind of loomed over 526 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 2: the city like gods in a way. So it's it's 527 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: not it's very much not not a god in the 528 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: sense that they are all powerful, but rather that they're 529 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: these these kind of towering figures who are kind of 530 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: hanging over the city, you know, on their own kind 531 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 2: of mount olympus. 532 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: It's a lot of the shots exactly. The picked that 533 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: specific time, which is interestingly, the last two years of 534 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: Reagan's second term and the first two years of Bush's 535 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: only term. Yeah, that eighty six through ninety Why that period? 536 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: Why did you home in on that? Yeah? 537 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I sort of started with a 538 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: kind of a wider lens thinking about the eighties, and 539 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: then I kind of came to see that, you know, 540 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to narrow the narrative down a little bit 541 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 2: just for storytelling purposes. I didn't want it to feel 542 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 2: like kind of a survey history of the eighties. So 543 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: and I felt like the story of those four years, 544 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: which which were really there, it's the story of really 545 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: Cotch's last term as mayor when when everything he's done 546 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 2: over his first two terms unravels and the city unravels. 547 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: And so many crazy things happened during this just this 548 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 2: four year period of time. I mean, from Howard Beach 549 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: to Black Monday, you know, the stock market crash, to 550 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: the Tauana, the crazy Tawana Brawley story, to uh use 551 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: Hawkins Jogger use of Hawkins. Plus it was the sort 552 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: of the AIDS crisis and and the birth and rise 553 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: of Act Up and this kind of whole new activist movement. 554 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: It was when Crack arrived in the city. It was 555 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: when you know, New York had its first black police 556 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: commissioner ever who was presiding over this unprecedented kind of 557 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: drug epidemic. It's when homelessness really became an issue in 558 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: the city. It was when Spike Lee May Do the 559 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: Right Thing, which is you know, kind of an iconic film, 560 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: and I really captured the city in this moment. It 561 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: just so many things happened in this four year window. 562 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: Plus I had kind of Cotch's final term as a 563 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: as a sort of a narrative spine that it just 564 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: felt like both from a you know, really from a 565 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: storytelling end, kind of a more Geshtalty perspective. 566 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: It was like the right the right period, author and 567 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: journalist Jonathan Mahler. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 568 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on 569 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 570 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: When we come back, Jonathan Mahler talks about the breaking 571 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: point New York City faces today and how it mirrors 572 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 1: that of the nineteen eighties. I'm Alec Baldwin and this 573 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: is Here's the Thing. Jonathan Mahler's most recent book, The 574 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: Gods of New York, chronicles how New York City dramatically 575 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: changed during the tumultuous years of the late nineteen eighties. 576 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: The book also details why he believes that period of 577 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: time served as a prequel for the New York City 578 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: of today. Talking to Maler Now in the aftermath of 579 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: an historic mayoral election, I wanted to know his thoughts 580 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: on Zoran Mamdani's unlikely political ascension and what his win 581 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: says about the current state of New York City. 582 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think it certainly tells us that the city 583 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: is at a kind of a breaking point. I mean, 584 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: I think that this is in many ways kind of 585 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: the story of my book, right It's the story of 586 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: New York is emerging from the kind of dark days 587 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 2: of the seventies, the fiscal crisis. The subways are covered 588 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: in graffiti. You know, it's a disaster the city's and 589 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: a death spiral. 590 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: And then it's. 591 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: Reborn in the nineteen eighties. And at the center of 592 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: that rebirth is Wall Street and is the real estate industry, 593 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: which kind of lives off of the Wall Street bonuses. 594 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: And you know, New York kind of goes through this 595 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: transformation and becomes the capital of global finance. But the 596 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: problem with that transformation is that a lot of people 597 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: are left out of it, a lot of people are 598 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: squeezed out of it. And you know, I think that 599 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: that cycle it sort of exacerbates over the course of 600 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 2: the decades since then, the wealth gap widens and you 601 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 2: get to a point of crisis now where you have 602 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: a you know, you have people who are making you know, 603 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: one hundred and forty thousand dollars a year, can't afford 604 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: to buy an apartment in a you know, in a 605 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: neighborhood they want to live in, and are kind of 606 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: struggling to live in the city, and then you have 607 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: people who are making a whole lot less than that, 608 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 2: who are on a waiting list to get public housing 609 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: for years on end. And so you know, it's maybe 610 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: that not surprising in that context that someone who is 611 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: really proposing much of it is not not realistic, but 612 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: still proposing you know, pretty radical policies here. I mean, 613 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 2: you know, and by radical I mean I don't mean 614 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: that in a negative cast necessarily, but big change, let's say, 615 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: and you know, from from doubling minimum wage to providing 616 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: free childcare for every New Yorker from six weeks to 617 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: five years. I mean that is a you know, the 618 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: idea that that's you know, a lot of money, A 619 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: lot of money, yes, a lot of money. I think 620 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 2: it speaks to really the sort of extreme income inequality 621 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: that's kind of become just like the fabric of the city. 622 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: Now. See, I wonder with holmlessness, you know, I mean, 623 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: when do we say to ourselves that it isn't working 624 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: the policy is, and then they have to be taken somewhere. 625 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: It could be decommissioned army bases or something in upstate 626 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: New York where you can get a shower and a 627 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: meal and get cleaned up and get I mean, or 628 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: do we just lay on the streets? Has laying on 629 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: the streets worked? I don't know. I'm looking for someone 630 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: to maybe help now. 631 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: Though, now, I mean, those are good questions to ask. 632 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I tell the story actually in the book 633 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 2: of Really kind of the beginning of New York City's 634 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 2: homeless policy, which is kind of an amazing story. This 635 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: guy Bob Hayes, who was at the time a young 636 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: associate at a Sullivan and Cromwell, a kind of a 637 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: fancy white shoe law firm. You know, this is in 638 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: the late seventies, is you know, struck by all the 639 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 2: people he sees who seem to be kind of living 640 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: in Washington Square Park and on the streets. And because 641 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: this is you know, New York did not have a 642 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 2: homelessness problem per se until this period of time. I mean, 643 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: they were what we're called like bums and whinos on 644 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: the street the Bowery. Yeah, but you didn't have you 645 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: didn't have people sleeping on the streets. So this guy, 646 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: Bob Hayes, is sort of curious about this, and he 647 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: starts talking to them, and you know, he learns that 648 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: they're people who've found themselves on the street, either because 649 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: they were in a mental hospital that they were sort 650 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: of pushed out of, or they were living in a 651 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: single room occupancy hotel, a welfare hotel that they got 652 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: they got pushed out of, or you know, they found 653 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: their way to the streets and there was nowhere for 654 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: them to go. And so he decides he's going to 655 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: file a lawsuit on behalf of these people, these homeless people. 656 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: One of the plaintiffs literally lists his address as a 657 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: cardboard box on Park Avenue, and he is rooting around 658 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: in the NYU Law Library to try to figure out, 659 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: you know, how he's going to make his case. And 660 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: he finds a piece of legislation that was passed during 661 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: the Depression, that was sort of pushed by LaGuardia that 662 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: says New York State shall provide you know, care, housing 663 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: and care for the needy. And he's like, bingo, paydirt. 664 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: He adds that to the lawsuit. He's the guy that 665 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: honor he did. 666 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. 667 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: Kach realizes that he's cooked, he's lost. He signs a 668 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: concree saying that he will do this, and suddenly the 669 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: city is desperately trying to house literally thousands of people 670 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: who are sleeping on the streets, and so the story 671 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: of homelessness kind of begins there. And I think in 672 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: the beginning there was the sense of like, Okay, well, 673 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: this is just a you know, we'll figure this out. 674 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: It's just a logistical issue. We just have to figure 675 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: out how to find homes for these people. And needless 676 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: to say, that did not happen, and forty years later, 677 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: we're still trying to figure out what to do. 678 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: What does the next mayor need to do in terms 679 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: of we've been kicking the can on so many issues 680 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: in the city, and we've been you know, one day 681 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: you turn around, it seems like yesterday people were saying 682 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: the subway is great, and we've invested in the subway, 683 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: and the subways on time, everybody's love of the subway's 684 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: just really really humming along. And then it's like ten 685 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: years ago, by the like, the subway's a disaster. Whatever 686 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: you do, don't take the subway. I mean, obviously COVID 687 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: was a part of that whole episode, but I mean, 688 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: I wonder, what is the thing you think, Mom, Donnie Adams, 689 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: whoever that comes in what's the issue that we can 690 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,479 Speaker 1: no longer forestall? 691 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I do think it's the affordability issue. I mean, 692 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 2: I think that this city, it can't be New York 693 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 2: City if it isn't giving people a foothold, if it 694 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: isn't giving people a chance, right, I mean, I feel 695 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: like I am all for endless opportunity, boundless opportunity in 696 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: this city. I think you should be able to come 697 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: here and get as rich as you can get, be 698 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,239 Speaker 2: as successful as you can be. But I think it 699 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: has to also find a way to give people a foothold. 700 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: It has to give them some kind of leg up 701 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 2: to try to make it or I think it's just 702 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: going to lose so much. 703 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: But we have to have a net. You got to 704 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: have a net for people. When I was a kid, 705 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm an acting school at NYU, and I'm going and 706 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: then years go by and I understand that every maid, 707 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: every guy that works in a shop, every bus driver, everybody, cops, 708 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: even everybody's coming from somewhere else. New York is that 709 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: strange place where I went to GW and they taught 710 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: us when we took DC Culture and Politics, where they said, 711 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: this is a city where all the rich people live 712 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: outside the city. They go on the trains out to Virginia, 713 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: Super Virginia, Maryland and so forth. And it changed over 714 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: the years, and the Manhattan has always been, for the 715 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: large part, maybe with some lapses, the place where the 716 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: rich people lived in town exactly, and everybody else who 717 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: didn't have money lived out of town commuted. So we 718 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: have to make that work for them. I can't stand 719 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: to see people, even some I work with who work 720 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: take care of my home, struggling with their costs like that. 721 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: What are you planning on doing next? You have another 722 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: book on the boiler nothing yet. I have to say 723 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: I wrote this book. It took me eight years, and 724 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: I was working full time at the Times throughout. 725 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: It is very. 726 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: Difficult to write a book while working at the New 727 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: York Times. So I think, for a little while at least, 728 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: I'll just take a break from the book writing. 729 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: Because your wife, your editor. 730 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: She yes, she does, she does, she always does. She's 731 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: the best editor. 732 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: Oh that's cool, that's cool. Yeah, Well, this book the 733 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: Gods of New York. I haven't read a book or 734 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: been aware of a book that's encapsulated the cauldron of 735 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: New York at that time. I mean, New York was really, really, 736 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: really tough. What's an excerpt that you favor? 737 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: How about I'll start with this two paragraphs of my 738 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 2: introduction of ed Koch. At five point twenty five in 739 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: the morning on New Year's Day, Edward Irving Koch was 740 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 2: awakened in his king sized bed at Gracie Mansion by 741 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: the knock of a police officer on his door, just 742 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 2: as he had been nearly every morning for the past 743 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 2: eight years. He did not have a hangover, but he 744 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: did have a head cold. Still, no running nose was 745 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: going to keep him from enjoying the historic day ahead. 746 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: His historic day. In a matter of hours, he would 747 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 2: become the third person in modern history to serve three 748 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: terms as mayor of New York City, and he'd been 749 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: re elected in a landslide with seventy eight percent of 750 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: the city wide vote. Koch's success was a tribute to 751 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 2: him his w work, ethic and unerring political instincts, but 752 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: also to New York and really America. His father, Louis 753 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: nee leb, had arrived at Ellis Island in nineteen oh nine, 754 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 2: a Jewish child of peddlers from a dirt, poor hamlet 755 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: in the Austro Hungarian Hungarian Empire. He started as a 756 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: lowly pantsmaker in a Lower east Side sweatshop, even sleeping 757 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 2: for a while in the factory, and eventually built a 758 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: solid middle class life for his family in a leafy 759 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: section of the Bronx. His mother, Joyce nee Yetta, was 760 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: a Jewish immigrant from similarly humble roots who had come 761 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: to New York in nineteen twelve. She also worked in 762 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 2: the garment trade before they were married and had their 763 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: second child, Edward, in nineteen twenty four. Kotch had benefited 764 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: from the Cities and Countries Largesse, enrolling at the tuition 765 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: free City College of New York in Uptown Manhattan when 766 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 2: he was just sixteen before being drafted to serve in 767 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: World War II in March nineteen forty three. Three years 768 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: and two commondations later, he was back in the city, 769 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 2: living with his parents on Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn. Instead 770 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 2: of finishing college, he went straight to New York University 771 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: School of Law courtesy of the GI Bill. At law school, 772 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 2: he fell in love with Greenwich Village, its inexpensive restaurants, 773 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: tree lined streets, and countercultural ferment. He was no beatnik 774 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: but he had progressive ideals. He took up folk guitar 775 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: and was involved in the Right to Sing Committee, which 776 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 2: campaigned against the ban on musicians performing in Washington Square Park. 777 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 2: He also fell in love with politics. Kotsch was now 778 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 2: running his own law practice, but at lunchtime during the 779 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty two and fifty six presidential elections, he could 780 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: be found atop a soapbox on busy street corners extolling 781 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 2: the virtues of the Democratic candidate Adelai Stevenson. Derided by 782 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: Republicans as an egghead, he soon discovered that he was 783 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 2: a natural public speaker, shrill and nasal, but compelling and persuasive. 784 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to me to read that. I'm 785 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: glad you read that because it highlights for me in 786 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: my lifetime in New York, how some mayors were mayors 787 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: who had a distinct personality. Yeah, and coach No one 788 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: had more personality, so to say, than coches. And some 789 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: of them I wonder if they survived, not because they 790 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: don't have any personality. You don't really know very much 791 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: about Adams other than he's a cop. That's true. Policies. 792 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: The Blasio was kind of in negative integers. In terms 793 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: of his personality, Bloomberg had a personality, but it was 794 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: always framed in dollar bills, in terms of his wealth, 795 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: his wealth, his smarts. I Bloomberg is an exceedingly bright 796 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: man and successful man, but that eclipsed everything in terms 797 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: of what we know. What was he? 798 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: I mean, he had a profile, but not a personality 799 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 2: in a way, right. 800 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: Right, coach may be the last. Coach may be the last. No, 801 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: I can't think of anyone had a very bright personality anyway. 802 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: My thanks to you, the Gods of New York, a 803 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: great analysis of New York in eighty six to nineteen 804 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: ninety and my best to luck to you with whatever 805 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: you're gonna do next. Thank you so much, Alcol, so 806 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: much fun. My thanks to author and journalist Jonathan Maller. 807 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 808 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: Were produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 809 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 810 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought 811 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio.