WEBVTT - Positively Gam: Black Hair Part 1 w/ Willow Smith, Stacey Ciceron & J. LeShae 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.559 I don't think they understand You're not just talking about 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.640 my hair at a certain point, You're talking about like 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.800 me as a person. I feel like for you, will 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.400 I feel like some of this started with you. Really young. 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.680 Willow has the prettiest hair, and she just didn't believe it. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:22.160 I didn't and I'm still trying to believe it. What's up, everybody, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:26.000 I'm Gammy and this is positively gam Every week I 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.000 have raw, in depth conversations with inspirational people pushing for 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:35.559 change on everything from aging, relationships, politics, wellness, to the 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.960 current issues facing the black community. Okay, joining me is 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.000 a lovely panel of strong black women, starting with one 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:48.320 of my heartbeats, my lovely granddaughter, Willow, and we have 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:54.680 celebrity hairstylist Stacy Cisseron and hair historian Jay Lash. I 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.000 really wanted to have this conversation. I've wanted to have 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.320 it for a really long time. I know hair is 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.240 supposed to be a woman's glory, but I don't know 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:10.480 any Black woman who hasn't had a vacillating relationship with 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.760 their hair. I know I have over the years, and 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.800 I really think a lot of the struggle has to 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:22.199 do with how we've been brainwashed for centuries. I think 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:27.520 that's that awakening and that understanding is something that has 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.240 been suppressed for so long that I feel like just 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.360 now even myself, like with me shaving my head and 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:40.320 with me like trying to regrow that regrow physically and spiritually, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.760 that relationship with my hair. I feel it so important 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:49.120 because as a young girl, it was rough with my 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.240 hair like it was, Yeah, it was, and that I 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:57.160 hated my hair goes back to all the brainwashing that 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.840 we went through making us feel like we had we 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.680 had to in order for us to have any kind 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.960 of self esteem about ourselves. Over the years, it was 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:13.600 about assimilating into the culture of the colonizers and the 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.360 way we looked in the way we dressed. I remember 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:21.320 you got mad one time because I wanted to get extensions. Yeah, 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.959 we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna we're gonna talk 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.440 about that. But I just want to get to this 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.720 point and I want you to get us up to 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.160 the point where we start mixing. Mm hmmm, you know 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:40.000 not Yeah, greapes happening on plantations, and when you start 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.760 this process, A couple of things happened. Number One, you 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.320 have people who are now vibracial in their hair texture 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:53.440 is softer, curls are looser, they're considered prettier. And so 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.240 this is where you start the term good hair, pretty kid, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.040 pretty she is. And there is a high arty created 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.360 with white boats that we've been internalized amongst ourselves. And 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.799 so there are documented cases of light skinned black boats 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:16.440 having separate church ceremonies for themselves from the dark skin 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.040 black footing. This is during this right, So this is 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.160 when we start that process. We internalized that inferiority and 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.240 start to believe it. And it's been going on for 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.120 generations and generations. So you can see how we start 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:35.720 separating from one another based on the brainwashing that we've 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:42.760 black women with other black women, because like when I 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:48.120 was younger, there would be like even family members that 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.119 were my peers, like my cousins or whatever it was, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:56.240 because I had one cousin that had really beautiful flowing 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.560 her and every time I would just look at her 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.720 and I would because you're so beautiful, like I want that, 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.760 And every time I would bring it up, she would 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:10.160 always just be like, not everyone can, and it would 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.280 and it would be it was like a real hurt 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.040 for me, like I was like wow, And then she'd 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.360 be like trying to be like, maybe you should get 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.160 a weave, maybe you should get a perm, maybe you 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:20.960 should you know, and like all of these things, and 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.440 like other black women, not even trying to be like no, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:38.560 like you're beautiful, Like we're different, but we're beautiful together. Okay. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.120 So I want to take us back to the good hair, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.320 bad hair, because now we we understand where it all 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.799 came from. But and actually that was a real stickler 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.640 for me when I was growing up. I hated that 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.440 because I had long braids and all of that. But 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.360 the good hair, bad hair, I'm guilty of saying that, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.960 what are the proper terms that we should use when 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.240 we're trying to describe our hair and not the good 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.080 hair bad hair? Stacy, let me tell you while you're 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:13.200 talking my my brain, my emotions, it's it's such a 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:17.080 trigger for us that I have about fifty million thoughts 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.400 that just came to me. But the first thing that 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.480 came to me is the reward and the punishment first 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.120 of all that comes with good hair bad here. So 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.640 even if you don't want to believe it, like oh 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.880 I have beautiful hair, I have this I have that 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.520 we go back to the punishment versus the reward. Okay, 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.279 so what happens with the person with the good hair? 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.440 Are they getting different opportunities, are they getting different chances? 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.560 Are they being more visible? Are they being taken seriously? 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.839 Because there's a lot of things that come in with 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.680 the hair, with the complexion and different things like that. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.720 So when I think about good hair bad hair as 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.000 a professional, I could not refer to it that way. 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.680 Especially with teaching consumers and teaching hair style this we 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.400 refer to it more by its characteristics. What does it 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.239 look like? Is it straight? Is it wavy? Is it coally? 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.240 Is it curly? That's more like how we refer to 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.000 hair texture, hair type, density, perosity, and things like that. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.159 But even within our excuse me, I was just saying, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.680 because those words don't like throw shade on the person 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.599 you're talking now, because they're they're facts. They're now. But 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.800 I'm not gonna say that I did not hear it 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.920 growing up and even within having a Caribbean background and 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.440 in in all of that comes with But the good 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.520 hair bad hair to me, comes with the punishment versus reward, 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.240 even though we switch it in our in our vocabulary, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.600 in our conversations. We're still gonna be punished somehow. We're 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.800 still maybe not going to get the job opportunities or 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.640 get noticed by somebody that we like, somebody that we 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.400 are attracted to make. What good hair versus bad here? 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.640 So this is what I'm saying, so at that's my take. 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.640 When the good here bad here, we would have to 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.400 dig a little deeper to correct the punishment versus the rewards. 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.840 If that's the exact replica of that culture that we 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.240 pay from the exact same thing, you got different treatment, 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.920 better jobs right on the plantation for lighter skin, longer hair. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.960 Even with amongst ourselves we do that. So yeah, we're 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.080 doing the exact same thing, and we haven't unlearned that behavior. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.040 It is corpus of rooting. Yeah, good is desirable, desirable, 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.960 That is not desirable. And I don't know how true 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.120 this is. We these things pop up on the Internet 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.600 saying that black women are the least desirable women of all, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.040 which that comes with its thing too. I feel like 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:49.960 that I can't tell you how much that narrative, how 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.840 much I've seen that narrative, and how much I've just 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.760 been around it, even even people would be like, Oh, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.240 it's so interesting that your light skin, but your hair 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.600 is not how I would expect. It's like always that. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.200 It's always something like that, or it's we wanted to 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.160 do this hairstyle, Like if I'm going to a photo 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.760 shoot or something, it's we wanted to do this hairstyle, 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.640 but your hair is just a little difficult today or 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.240 something or whatever it is. But they think that it's 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.920 like totally okay to say. They think it's just Oh, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.720 it's just a fact. It's just your hair is difficult 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.000 right now. It's I don't think they understand that you're 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.120 not really You're not just talking about my hair at 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.520 a certain point, You're talking about like me as a person. 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.280 And I think that's where a lot of black women 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.400 just start to feel that worth just starts to just 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.760 slip away from them. They're feeling of their self worth, 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.360 at feeling of value because things like that are being said. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.880 They're going to work, people are saying, oh, can't you 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.079 it's standing up so it's so hot, how do you 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.240 get your hair that high? Which it's crazy. I feel 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.200 like for you will, I feel like some of this 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.840 started with you really young, and I remember just really listen, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:04.439 willowhead the prettiest hair. She has the prettiest hair, and 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.400 she just didn't believe it. I didn't, and I'm still 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.120 trying to believe it. I'm still in the process of 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.640 my little fro. I'm like, I need to nurture you. 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.080 I'm trying to, like I say mantras in the morning, 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.360 I like put the oil in my hair. I'm like 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.760 really trying to. Like it's a self like regaining that 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.800 like self love and that because I never had that. Yeah, 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.120 and I just I never I understood it. I just 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.360 jad and I just tried so hard to fight that 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:39.080 and give her confidence and just tell her how beautiful 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.080 she had, the the prettiest head of hair. What I 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.480 will say is that when Mommy showed me the Rough 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.679 and Stuff music video, that changed a lot because I 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:54.120 was like, oh, I'm rough and stuff with my afro puffs, Okay. 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.480 I was like, this is my whole life. I wish 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.600 the audience could actually see us, because you guys, with 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.679 your hair right now is absolutely beautiful. And I had 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.040 pictures a Willow with her hair when she was little, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.439 and I just couldn't understand why she didn't see what 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.400 I saw, and then we're gonna go back to you know, 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.720 your statement that I was really upset when will I 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.280 was young and she wanted extensions, and I felt like 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.680 if we allowed her to get extensions that young, that 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.880 we were just it was just gonna be downhill after that, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.680 because to me, it was an admission that what was 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.000 on her head was not good enough. And it was 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.719 you and Kennedy. It was you and Kennedy and I 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.240 just there were a lot of basically all of my 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.640 black girlfriends at the time, we were all just we 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.520 hate this, like we were all just we don't like 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.640 the way we looked like. I would wake up in 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.840 the morning and my hair because my hair is super course, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.560 so it would be like to the side and like 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:04.120 a like you know those troll dolls. It would look 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:05.800 like to the side like that, and I would look 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.200 at myself and just feel so ugly and I would 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.080 cry almost every morning. And I guess I need to 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.080 say too that it was really just an interesting journey 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.439 because Jada and I don't have hair like Willows, our hair, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.480 our textures. They look at my mom's hair and I'd 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:24.040 be like, why don't have to talk? But in our family, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.600 there are so many different textures of hair. Like my 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:33.000 mother's hair was straight and silky. So my mother and 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.880 sister Karen, Karen's hair was so straight that you couldn't 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.319 braid it. It wouldn't stay we would just it would 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.640 just come out. And my mother wasn't good with caring 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.640 for her hair. We didn't really know how to care 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.640 for our hair. And like, even on my head, there's 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.680 different textures in my head. Yeah, the name of my neck. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.840 For Jada and I, the nape of our necks is 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.000 the straightest part of our hair. The crown is curlier, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.800 and the sides it's just friends. But it's even like 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.320 learning to like there's so many different parts of yourself, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.440 you know what I mean. Like there's so many different 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.720 facets of gamming that it's like learning to accept. It's 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.000 like a microcosm of yourself. Yeah, so you gotta figure 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.520 it out exactly. You gotta figure it out. We gotta 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.720 love yourself, love your hair, and that's that's a life journey, 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.800 you know what I mean. I also feel again going 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.679 back to the connection, especially with young girls. I have teenagers, 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.560 and no matter how much I try to instill in them, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.920 it goes back to we want to fit in, we 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.320 want to feel connected, and we want to feel love. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.240 So we can be saying one thing, but it's still 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.760 going to be based on the reactions of the friends, 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.200 people you like and people who you want to fit 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.720 in with. So you can be saying you're so beautiful, 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.040 your hair so beautiful, but if somebody that she likes, 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:58.120 you cannot control the sparkle in somebody's eye. So maybe 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.079 you just want to get a sparkle when somebody's I 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.480 and you don't get it. And and so, no matter 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.199 how much you try to tell your children love yourself, 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:09.640 love yourself, there's this factor of wanting to belong, feel connected, 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.480 feel love, and get that sparkle that they don't get. 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.280 So the idea, even as an adult, is to find 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.800 the sparkle in your own eye. Yeah, and not get 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.560 it from somebody else. But it's the comparison, and we 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.040 just can't help it. I tell you it was painful. No, 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:29.959 I would always it was painful, specifically from the cousin 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.559 who had the really kurt like loose curly hair, and 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.479 you would always go, boys don't like girls with afros. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.679 What I'm saying this is my point. This is exactly 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.360 my point. So we just have to find a way too. 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.599 And it's maybe it's just a process for that contrast 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.280 to see that. I don't know good until I see bad. 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.959 I don't know love until I see paint. I don't know. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.760 Maybe it's just a part of that process to gain 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.599 that that self love and connection. Well, we'll say you 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.360 would just talking about Willow about this self study piece. 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.200 I think it's really critical because I had a very 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.760 similar experience. My mother was a hair stylist, is a 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.319 hair stylist, and so she would quarrel my hair and 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.319 there's a little girl. I look, I'm like making my 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:18.680 little bit. But then when I got older, I started 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.360 to want something different. I wanted my hair to be longer, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.520 I wanted to be like the other people. I wanted 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.080 the boys to like me, all of that because but 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.080 what changed. I cut my hair off when I was seventeen, 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.720 just cut it all off. And at that moment I 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.600 started asking myself a lot of questions just about who 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.360 I was. Fast forward, I'm thirty five and I've been 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.360 an educator since I was twenty two. And what I 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.600 learned in that process two things. Number One as a 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:52.120 high school history teacher, I noticed that we spend thirteen 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.000 years minimum if you go all the way through, if 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.000 you go on to college, it's more in school, and 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.880 not any part of that is none of them. And 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.400 so we spend all of this time being indoctrinated in 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.440 all of this material, whether it's about government or health, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.400 or science or philosophies, from all these other people, and 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.680 those them are truth, exact perfection, and so that's what 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.320 we think about the world. Opinions of other people start 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.480 to matter more because we're taught that opinions of other 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.680 people hold truth, not our own experience. We can't heard 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.040 of anything from everywhere else, and so this self study 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.840 piece is very big. I think that's critical. And I 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.000 think there's a song that you have, what is it 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.960 organization and can classification? That is real, That is so 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.480 real that when we do that, it creates a hierarchy 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.520 in our minds at ourselves and others and operate, And 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.440 so I think it's self study. I'm so glad you 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.360 got that from that song. That's so many people were 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.800 looking at me like girls doesn't make any sense. We 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.640 need to organize things, it's what we need to I 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.160 think if we can get out of these boxes, it'll 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.480 help us to break down the higharchy. I agree. It's 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.040 one of those things where you can't get free if 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.440 you don't really know your truth. You are your own perfection. 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.360 There is no such thing as perfect, there's no such 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.560 thing as absolute, you know, Like we're just all on 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.880 our own particular journeys. But we're in a world that 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.920 wants to categorize us so much, wants to create a 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:41.080 superiority and the supremacy that we are indoctrinated with this, 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.640 and so then it becomes hard to battle ourselves out. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.880 Even with the love of a like a good mother, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.960 a good grandmother, like telling us all these wonderful things, 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.000 we can't get it because everything in the world is 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:57.640 telling us. No expert, they're not the expert they are. Yeah, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:02.000 that's really sad, it's true. It's really sad to think 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.600 about it now. Wow, And when you talk when you 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.919 put that on top of the generational trauma of being 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.080 a black person, on top of that being a black woman, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.119 and then you're put into this system. Yeah, it's just 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.040 a recipe for this is well, it grow down to survival, 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.800 which is what we have to do. To just to survive. 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.320 So I want to talk a little bit. Let's go 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.399 back to your journey with your hair and back, and 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.639 what was it like when you cut your hair first time. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.520 It wasn't the first time we cut your hair, but 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.280 it was it was the first time that you cut 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.680 it off. And I have to admit that we we 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.280 did a lot of experimentation with your hair because my 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.320 mom was like, don't want to shave it all off 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.639 at once. I was like, let's maybe the side, maybe 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.200 half of the side exactly. But we also put heat 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.000 to her hair. We wouldn't permit, but we put heat 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.640 to it, which again I did not want to do 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.119 because I knew it was gonna change the texture off 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.280 her hand, and I knew that wine it changed the 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.159 texture of your hair. I'm getting this virgin progress. I 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.320 die gress. I diegress. So you decided that you wanted 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.320 to shave your hair, what would tell us what that 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:35.960 was about. I feel like all of the pressure that 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:40.639 I felt from like even my own peers, even my 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.919 own black female peers, from society, for myself, looking at 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.960 the media, looking at women who were deemed attractive or desirable, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.760 all of that pressure, I feel like I just wanted 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.199 to just throw it in the trash, like I just 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.360 wanted to be like, I don't want to hold this anymore. 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.640 I can't hold this anymore. This is becoming too heavy, 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.800 and I just want it gone. I just want to gone. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.320 I don't want to think about it. And you were 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.159 so young when you made that decision. I did because 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.399 it hurt very badly at a very young age to 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.400 the enough, hurt enough to the point where I was like, 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.480 this isn't worth it at a certain point to feel 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.679 this pain, like I'd rather just not have it and 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.320 not even be able to identify with anything that has 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.680 to do with having hair at all. And I feel 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.160 like it was more this second time that I cut 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.240 my hair was more from a place of power and 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.879 from a place of love and compassion. But back in 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.600 the day it was more from a place of I 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.000 can't handle this anymore. It was more from a place 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.479 of anxiety. So is your music guiding that? Or is 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.919 how you're feeling? Is how you're feeling is guiding your music? Oh, 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:57.080 how I'm feeling guide every Definitely. That's why there's two 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.159 years in between each of my albums, because I'm like, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.320 not feeling it. Not this year, not this year. Okay, 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.200 I'm I'm feeling it this year. So this last time, 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.600 with the last album that you put out, and you 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:14.120 had Tyler just completely shave your head bald, What was that? 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.760 What was the the process of coming to that? How 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.159 did you come to that decision that you were going 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:21.960 to number one, that you were going to shave your 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.080 head and then you were going to shave it in 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.560 that venue. Yeah, it took a read. It took a 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.680 lot of preparation, obviously because it was and I guess 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.320 we should talk a little twenty four hours in a 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.520 box because people don't really know that story. Yeah. Me, 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.919 Me and Tyler had been working on this album in 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.199 New York at Electric Lady for about I want to say, 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.240 two or three months, and then one day he was like, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.000 wouldn't it be so crazy if we just did an 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.240 anxiety attack just like in the place, like people could 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.160 come watch it. And I was like, oh my god, 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.720 that could be super dope. But at first I was like, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.119 I don't know, that's a little risky. I'm not sure 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.159 you know what I mean. But then the idea started 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.639 forming and I was like, oh my goodness, like this 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.000 could actually be really amazing, and so we split up. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.679 We split up an anxiety attack into eight different emotions, 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.880 and the last emotions was like surrender and acceptance. And 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.400 after going through all of those anger for three hours, 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.840 sadness for three hours, numbness for three hours, like getting 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:31.280 into these like insane emotions, I really felt like this. 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.280 It was almost like I had generated it within myself 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:36.240 and I didn't expect it to be this powerful like 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:41.520 I but I felt that that deep acceptance of the good, 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.240 the bad, the light, the dark, like I'm here for 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:45.879 it and I'm gonna bring I'm gonna love it with 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.239 a smile, I'm gonna everything. Everything is here. And I 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:53.040 felt like that moment was so important for me to 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.679 shape my head because it was almost like I'm letting 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.199 go of my path who I was, you know what 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.680 I mean, Like I'm letting go of the things that 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.480 I beat myself up about, I'm letting go of my anxieties, 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.360 I'm letting go of my fears. And when that, when 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.400 those locks hit the floor, it was like, oh, honey, 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.040 I'm a different person today. So in that regard, I 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:21.600 feel like my intentions were way purer this time. And 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.280 I can really feel that now and even with the 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:26.720 re growth of it coming back. Just like you were saying, 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.200 there's a memory that comes along with tapping into it, 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.640 and I feel every day and you have to pay attention. 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:36.760 You can't just be like the memory is coming. No, 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.400 you have to pay attention, you know what I mean, 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.920 Like it's a it's an internal look and every day 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.840 checking in and that picture is just getting painted. And 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.480 I'm so excited too to bring it into like myself 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.560 and into action. Yeah. I just remember the feeling that 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.600 I had when you started growing your dreads. It was 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:58.000 just a feeling of the acceptance of yourself and I 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.600 was just so I was like, she finally gets it. 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:06.440 She finally is loving herself fully and understanding and believing 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:10.560 that she's beautiful as she is. But this is even 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.240 another step of that because because when I had when 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.520 I started growing my dreads, it actually happened by accident, 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.800 and I was afraid because I was like, oh my god, 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:22.879 like I went to my mom, was accident. It was 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:28.040 an accident. I I started dread started happening and I 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:32.600 was like yeah, and I was like, like I was 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:34.800 panicking and my and I went to my mom and 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:36.040 I was like, oh my god, what do I do? 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.560