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Speaker 2: All right, welcome to Hoop Tonight. You're at the volume.
Speaker 2: Hapfy Thursday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having
Speaker 2: a great week. We have a very special guest today.
Speaker 2: After the Clippers dropped six consecutive games post James Harden trade,
Speaker 2: they have recently ripped off ten of their last thirteen,
Speaker 2: including a bunch of really impressive wins. And we're bringing
Speaker 2: on Law Murray, friend of mine who covers the Clippers
Speaker 2: for the Athletic and also shares the distinction of being
Speaker 2: the first guest on Hoops Tonight who I have played
Speaker 2: and won multiple basketball games with, which is very cool. Well,
Speaker 2: how's it going, man, It's good to see you.
Speaker 1: It's good to see you too. Man. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: you know we're getting a chance to do this. Shout
Speaker 1: to my guy Jova, because I know, you've been doing
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot with him and the crazy
Speaker 1: team he's got over there, so it's yeah, I'm privileged
Speaker 1: to be in the space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Clippers and Lakers have definitely been heavy on
Speaker 2: the entertainment this year, so obviously turning point of the season,
Speaker 2: the Clippers send out their forward depth, albeit aging forward
Speaker 2: depth in Nick Patoom and Marcus Morris, and in the
Speaker 2: in getting James Harden in return. Really struggled to start,
Speaker 2: especially on the offensive end, especially on the glass, but
Speaker 2: they've rounded some things out. They've won ten of their
Speaker 2: last thirteen. I just want you to start by just
Speaker 2: telling us, you know, from thirty thousand feet, how you
Speaker 2: felt about the hard and trade in general and what
Speaker 2: it's done for this team.
Speaker 1: I was so neutral about the whole situation because I
Speaker 1: was on it from almost the jump, Like when James
Speaker 1: opted into his contract. You know, shortly after that, I
Speaker 1: got word that James is trying to come to the Clippers,
Speaker 1: like he's talking to the guys about getting to the Clippers,
Speaker 1: and my mind went, you know, James would be great
Speaker 1: on the Clippers. Like the Clippers that just let Eric
Speaker 1: Gordon go. So I knew that where there's some smoke,
Speaker 1: there's some fire. You know. Eric Gordon was a player
Speaker 1: that the organization really liked from the front office standpoint,
Speaker 1: and Toron lu had a big role for Eric Gordon.
Speaker 1: He had him start when Paul George's knee buckled the
Speaker 1: wrong damn way against the Oklahoma City Thunder and March,
Speaker 1: and even before that, when Marcus Morris was out for
Speaker 1: a Northern California trip, it was Eric who got to
Speaker 1: be the starter in his place, and I thought that
Speaker 1: was I just thought that was interesting because Eric is
Speaker 1: obviously not as big as Marcus Morris's. He's a stout player,
Speaker 1: but he's not you know, he doesn't have those forward dimensions,
Speaker 1: at least the big FOURD dimensions, because Eric was starting
Speaker 1: at the three when he was with Houston last year
Speaker 1: before the trade, and so I thought from a basketball standpoint,
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, it was going to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can see how he fits. He's a big guard.
Speaker 1: The organization likes big guards, the one to two type
Speaker 1: type of guards. And then you look at defensively. I
Speaker 1: know Damian Lillard's name was out there, but I was
Speaker 1: like I would if I'm the Clippers I've been preferring
Speaker 1: to get James because James is bigger and a guy
Speaker 1: who playing with Kawhi and Paul, you can do more defensively.
Speaker 1: And that might seem surprising the people who love to
Speaker 1: attach themselves to narratives about how well a player fits
Speaker 1: a defense, But like James Harden could fit the Clippers'
Speaker 1: defense better than Damian Lillywood. In hindsight, looking at the
Speaker 1: Maulkey Bucks defense, you can see where I might be
Speaker 1: getting at with that. On the other hand, there's a
Speaker 1: reason James was available. There's a reason James has the
Speaker 1: narrative that follows him from place to place. And then
Speaker 1: you're wondering, Okay, so how is he going to handle
Speaker 1: adversity because there will be adversity. There is already adversity
Speaker 1: with the Clippers because they're feeling the heat of wasting
Speaker 1: years of the era of Paul and Kawhi being on
Speaker 1: that team. Like when they got there, they were young
Speaker 1: ish and ready to descend, but now they're in the
Speaker 1: end of their second contracts respectively with the team. How
Speaker 1: does a guy who is angling to get out because
Speaker 1: of his contract situation fit into all that? What does
Speaker 1: that do for Russell Westbrook because Russell Westbrook. The only
Speaker 1: reason he got to the Clippers is because the Clippers
Speaker 1: donated all their point guards at the trade deadline, and
Speaker 1: Paul George loudly and Kawhi Leonard less loudly but so
Speaker 1: prominently suggested that the team needed to get another damn
Speaker 1: point guard, and Russ showed that he was a much
Speaker 1: better fit with the Clippers than he was with the Lakers.
Speaker 1: So you bring in a guy like James Harden and
Speaker 1: we all know there was going to be some conflict there.
Speaker 1: How old was that going to go? It took four
Speaker 1: months or this trade to complete. I thought the trade
Speaker 1: could have been done as early as late June. It
Speaker 1: took until the last day of October for terms to
Speaker 1: be finalized. And then because of all that, James is late.
Speaker 1: You know, he's a month behind everybody else. This team
Speaker 1: came out of trading camp trying to be a Russell
Speaker 1: Westbrook offense. Toront Lu said we're gonna run, we're gonna cut,
Speaker 1: and we're going to defend at the top five level.
Speaker 1: And you could see how that was going to make sense,
Speaker 1: especially when your main fours of Robert Covington and Nicholas
Speaker 1: patom and so James coming there disrupted all that and
Speaker 1: they try to have it both ways. And that's when
Speaker 1: I was like, you're seeing the downsides of this trade immediately,
Speaker 1: but now you're seeing the upside now that they won
Speaker 1: ten of the last thirteen. And yes, it does coincide
Speaker 1: with picking James Harden as the main point guard and
Speaker 1: deciding Russ had to be in the second unit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting that you brought that up about
Speaker 2: the like not getting the deal done over the summer,
Speaker 2: which there's a bunch of different factors there, not the
Speaker 2: least of which was James was being an antagonist with
Speaker 2: the Sixers as well, which is going to throw a
Speaker 2: wrench into things. But like when you lose out on
Speaker 2: training camp and you don't get a chance to establish
Speaker 2: those things, it makes it so that you're basically working
Speaker 2: through those issues during the season. And specifically the point
Speaker 2: you made about Russ, because like that's the thing is
Speaker 2: like Russ fit in super well with the Clippers versus
Speaker 2: the Lakers because they desperately needed what he brought to
Speaker 2: the table, as opposed to Russ being a redundancy with
Speaker 2: the Lakers and so bringing that pace. But the gist
Speaker 2: of it foundationally though, is having a guy that can
Speaker 2: get Kawhi and Paul George in their spots, basically set
Speaker 2: the table for them so that they're operating more in
Speaker 2: an advantage situation. Like it's crazy watching the Clippers now
Speaker 2: with Russ and James Harden, just how often Paul George
Speaker 2: just working with an advantage versus as the guy who's
Speaker 2: initially breaking down the defense.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: But when you shift to James Harden, it's the same
Speaker 2: kind of style from the standpoint of him setting the table,
Speaker 2: but a much more methodical, slower approach, and the Clippers
Speaker 2: have been a much slower paced team after the trade.
Speaker 2: That said, they've done a nice job. I think in
Speaker 2: the minutes where Russ comes in the way they're staggering.
Speaker 2: It of kind of shifting gears and playing faster when
Speaker 2: Russ is on the floor. So, now zooming in on
Speaker 2: Harden specifically as a basketball player, how have you liked
Speaker 2: his fit offensively alongside James Harden and excuse me, alongside
Speaker 2: Paul George and Kawhi Leonard.
Speaker 1: I think the fit needed to be established after they
Speaker 1: had two point guards in the starting lineup when James
Speaker 1: got there, Tlu wanted to keep Russ as the main
Speaker 1: point guard and have James be off the ball. It's
Speaker 1: just too many cooks, too many touches that needed to
Speaker 1: be figured out. And the thing with Paul George is
Speaker 1: that Paul is at his best when he knows he's
Speaker 1: got to be that guy, you know, when he's not
Speaker 1: trying to quote unquote glue guy like, yeah, we saw
Speaker 1: him in Dallas like say, I'm going to defend and
Speaker 1: not score and it's like, bro, that's not going to work. Man.
Speaker 1: And so Kawhi is another one where it's like Kawhi
Speaker 1: is a guy who he has his rhythm, he likes
Speaker 1: to get the ball, he likes to surve they and
Speaker 1: pick and choose how he's going to attack you. But
Speaker 1: those dudes had to go through hard lessons and adjust
Speaker 1: what they're doing. And obviously the team had to go
Speaker 1: through the hard lesson of James has to be the
Speaker 1: point and Russ has to be the second point guard.
Speaker 1: And that has streamlined everything because Kawhi is on a
Speaker 1: heater right now. And a lot of it started in
Speaker 1: Sacramento when we were up there two weeks ago, and
Speaker 1: it was just Kawhi. We realized that you to get
Speaker 1: to your spot, take five seconds, understand what you want
Speaker 1: to do. How about you just go? You know. It
Speaker 1: was like when I was swooping with you, I was like, Yo,
Speaker 1: you gotta advantage you six to six. Bro, just just
Speaker 1: I can bring it up. But when I get into you,
Speaker 1: just get get into your work. And that's been great
Speaker 1: for Kawhi because James understands where Kawhi is going to
Speaker 1: have the ball. One reason why Kawhi is holding up
Speaker 1: so well playing all these games something that we haven't
Speaker 1: seen since he was in San Antonio. He's not the
Speaker 1: point guard. He's not the guy who's gotta run every
Speaker 1: pick and roll, get everything, get double teamed and still
Speaker 1: have to figure stuff out. Nah, Like you got James
Speaker 1: Harden who can take on It's like when you're a
Speaker 1: running back, instead of having a workhorse, you have a
Speaker 1: running back by a commedie kind of thing. It's the
Speaker 1: same thing here. You got different guys who can handle
Speaker 1: the pick and roll, but one of them is going
Speaker 1: to be tasked with getting the other guys set up.
Speaker 1: And that's what Paul Joy comes in. Because Paul, I
Speaker 1: think has before Kawhi's recent heater. I think Paul was
Speaker 1: doing really well while the team was figuring things out.
Speaker 1: Like Paul has ran more ISOs. Haven't checked recently, but
Speaker 1: Paul is running more ISOs than anyone on the team
Speaker 1: and doing it at a pretty high level. And a
Speaker 1: lot of that is just he He's got a bag.
Speaker 1: He can be a scorer. He's one of the few
Speaker 1: guys on the team who can pull up from three
Speaker 1: and catch and shoot, a guy who can get to
Speaker 1: his mid range, gets to the free throw line. I
Speaker 1: like it when he's aggressive going to the paint, and
Speaker 1: if you understand what Paul's been through physically, you can
Speaker 1: understand why that doesn't happen like it did when he
Speaker 1: was in Indiana. But when Paul George gets to the paint,
Speaker 1: the entire team is better and he understands that and
Speaker 1: that has really helped the team. Like everyone else just
Speaker 1: has the roles. If it's a Zubos, you're setting screens,
Speaker 1: you're rolling, expect to get the ball like you have
Speaker 1: a point guard who will get you the ball off
Speaker 1: the screen of the roll. Not that Russell was bad
Speaker 1: at that, but mind you didn't have that many games
Speaker 1: with Russell begin with, and before it, the team basically
Speaker 1: acted like the point guard position didn't exist. They were like,
Speaker 1: who needs a point guard? Have Paul and Kwi do it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool, but that can wear them down and is
Speaker 1: those guys are unavailable. You're not You don't have a
Speaker 1: damn point guard in your team all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: And they didn't like that. They were accepting of that
Speaker 1: when Tevu've got to be the head coach. But at
Speaker 1: this stage of what they're being asked to do, it's
Speaker 1: better to have guys like James Harden and Russell Westbrook
Speaker 1: who can take on the heavy ball handling role and
Speaker 1: let Paul and Kawhi do what they do best. Just
Speaker 1: because you can do something doesn't mean we need to
Speaker 1: see it spammed over the course of a regular season.
Speaker 1: That wears you out. They're being sustained right now because
Speaker 1: of the ballhandlers that they have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I look at offenses like three phases. Advantage
Speaker 2: creation basically breaking it down when the defense is set
Speaker 2: and loaded up on you. And then advantage extending essentially
Speaker 2: like close out attacking things along those lines. And then
Speaker 2: play finishing, which is the slashing off of a close out,
Speaker 2: you know, vertical spacing or a guy knocking down and
Speaker 2: catching shoot three. And essentially it used to be that
Speaker 2: Kawhi and Paul George had all of the offensive initiation piece,
Speaker 2: like that initial breaking down of the defense, and now
Speaker 2: James Harden and Russell Westbrook are actually taking a lot
Speaker 2: of that duty away and putting Kawhi, Leonard In Paul
Speaker 2: George more in positions where they're still going to work,
Speaker 2: but they're going to work with an advantage, and they're
Speaker 2: going to work already at their spots instead of having
Speaker 2: to work their way to their spots with a live grouble,
Speaker 2: which is just more challenging. And then, I honestly think
Speaker 2: that's reflected a lot defensively, as like I think Kawhi
Speaker 2: and Paul George are having insane defensive seasons this year,
Speaker 2: and a big part of it. I love the way
Speaker 2: you broke it down the difference between James Harden and Dame,
Speaker 2: because one of the things the Clippers do is they
Speaker 2: basically switch everything that doesn't involve zubats right, And so
Speaker 2: as a result of that, like James's size is actually
Speaker 2: an advantage because when he comes off in a switch
Speaker 2: he's going to at least provide the physical resistance to
Speaker 2: stop a guy from just bowling his way all the
Speaker 2: way to the basket, which I think has really helped.
Speaker 2: And then in general, I think having guys like Terrence
Speaker 2: Man in Russell Westbrook to take these high leverage point
Speaker 2: of attack assignments has put Kawhi and PG in help
Speaker 2: a lot. And those dudes are devastating in help because
Speaker 2: they're such good athletes. They read the actions so well.
Speaker 2: Like the defensive numbers are actually crazy. So they're fourth
Speaker 2: in defense over their last thirteen games. They are now
Speaker 2: up to second and half court defense according to Cleaning
Speaker 2: the Glass for the whole season, so they've been the
Speaker 2: second best half court defense in basketball. They are with
Speaker 2: the Lakers, Nuggets, Thunder, and Celtics as the only teams
Speaker 2: that are top ten in both half court defense and offense.
Speaker 2: They've rebounded way better than I thought they were going
Speaker 2: to in their last thirteen games. Are up to fourteenth
Speaker 2: and defensive rebounding percentage, which I think is a testament
Speaker 2: to those guys just playing really hard. They're eighth best
Speaker 2: in protecting the paint and they're pretty good at guarding
Speaker 2: the three point line too. Really, the only area of
Speaker 2: opportunity is their average transition defense. But other than that,
Speaker 2: they've been really good on the defensive end. What are
Speaker 2: you seeing specifically that is driving the success of the
Speaker 2: Clippers right now?
Speaker 1: On defense? I'll mean to be the general man, but
Speaker 1: mindset is so much a part of defense. And again,
Speaker 1: you play like we've seen each other, play, like you
Speaker 1: understand what it is you want to win. Guys can
Speaker 1: probably score, but the team that wins is the team
Speaker 1: that is dialed in. And defense is not just physical.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is mental, a lot of it
Speaker 1: is understanding what other teams are trying to do to
Speaker 1: attack you. A lot of it is opportunity, possession battle.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the transition defense. You know it's a good
Speaker 1: way to stay out of transition defense. Take care of
Speaker 1: the dan basketball, what your offense does getting to the
Speaker 1: free throw line, because getting to the free throw line
Speaker 1: is a huge part of sustainable defense because you're getting
Speaker 1: guys rest and more than often than not, you're making
Speaker 1: those tree throws and you're setting up your half court defense.
Speaker 1: You're keeping teams out of transition that way, if you
Speaker 1: don't turn them all over. And this team had massive
Speaker 1: turnover issues over the first ten games of the season,
Speaker 1: and a lot of that is play style of certain guys.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is too many ball handlers, and
Speaker 1: a lot of it is simply put, just coming into
Speaker 1: a season where guys are just not sure where they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be. And that's something that I saw the
Speaker 1: previous year when they broke camp with Paul and Kawhi
Speaker 1: but John Wall and Reggie Jackson as a point guards,
Speaker 1: and it was like, this offense is brutal to watch
Speaker 1: because guys are spraying passes all over the place and
Speaker 1: not really organized. They're trying to go small and you're
Speaker 1: thinking small balls great offensively, Well, small ball is not
Speaker 1: so great when you have all of your fours or
Speaker 1: fives who are masquerading in those positions not knowing what
Speaker 1: to do. You have no interior presence. It's the wrong
Speaker 1: kind of spacing. Great, you have five guys you can
Speaker 1: line up behind a three point line, and you have
Speaker 1: nobody who can screen and roll. You have nobody on
Speaker 1: the offensive class. So the team defense, I got to
Speaker 1: give a lot of credit to Dan Craig. Dan Craig
Speaker 1: is a former Miami assistant. He came over with Torondolo
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty to be the associate head coach, and
Speaker 1: Dan Craig is just a mad scientist when it comes
Speaker 1: to scheming and helping t Lou adjust defensively to how
Speaker 1: they wanted to either take primary actions away or take
Speaker 1: primary scores away. They do an outstanding job there. And
Speaker 1: when Kawhi and Paul keep repeating in training camp, we're
Speaker 1: trying to be a top five defense, not good. We're
Speaker 1: not trying to be good. We're not trying to be
Speaker 1: as good as we can be top five. Top five
Speaker 1: is a specific goal. Like teachers will tell you, guidance
Speaker 1: counselors especially, we'll tell you set some specific time oriented goals,
Speaker 1: and that is a way to make sure that you
Speaker 1: achieve them. And when you say top five, that means
Speaker 1: you are looking at what everyone else is doing and
Speaker 1: measuring it against yourself and holding yourself to a standard
Speaker 1: and being accountable for it. And that has had as
Speaker 1: much to do with how they're executing defensively than anything else. James,
Speaker 1: for all of his lack of daisical tape over the
Speaker 1: course of his career, is a veteran in the NBA.
Speaker 1: For of fifteen NBA seasons. He is large, he is handsy,
Speaker 1: like he gets steals every year. And this defense. The
Speaker 1: difference between this defense this year and previous years is
Speaker 1: that they have been more active in passing lanes. They
Speaker 1: are up, they are denying more. They are not letting
Speaker 1: teams just do what they want to do. They're more physical,
Speaker 1: which shows up when you see teams shoot poorly against
Speaker 1: the Clippers or portions of the game, it's because you're
Speaker 1: getting hit by them. Dudes. This is not a small team,
Speaker 1: even when you know, even when they don't have a
Speaker 1: visit subots on. These guys are bulky. They're old. They
Speaker 1: got allow old man strength like these He's have been
Speaker 1: in NBA weight rooms for several years. Turnings man is
Speaker 1: the young guy in certain lineup. Dude just turned twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Like these dudes big. He's big, and that wears on
Speaker 1: teams over the course of a game. Now, over the
Speaker 1: course of the season, it's hard to sustain. That's what
Speaker 1: you gotta see. Great, you gotta damn near top five
Speaker 1: defense over the course of the quarter of the first
Speaker 1: quarter season. What about the rest of the sixty games
Speaker 1: after we get through these road trips, after we've had
Speaker 1: some attrition with personnel, after teams understand what you're trying
Speaker 1: to do and they can exploit a little bit more.
Speaker 1: That's what I got to see over the course of
Speaker 1: the season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, specifically the part you said talked about playing passing
Speaker 2: lanes more. I think a big part of that has
Speaker 2: been having PG and Kawhi off ball more, just because
Speaker 2: of the fact that now with Russ, you're always with
Speaker 2: Terrence and Russ, you have a top tier athlete guarding
Speaker 2: at the point of attack, which.
Speaker 1: Is just that, especially to start games exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's not to say that Paul George and Kahi
Speaker 2: aren't going to be on ball, of course they are.
Speaker 2: They have lots of really good possessions in that Kings
Speaker 2: game the other night, unlike Herder and Keith and Murray
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But like the main thing that
Speaker 2: I see, because I was actually watching the Nuggets game
Speaker 2: this morning. It was one that I hadn't had a
Speaker 2: chance to watch yet, and so I went back and
Speaker 2: watched it this morning, and like, one of the big
Speaker 2: reasons why Jokic missed so many shots in that game
Speaker 2: is that you can just see as again their back
Speaker 2: pressure that they get on Jamal Murray is a freak athlete,
Speaker 2: which is then forcing him to go down further into
Speaker 2: the lane to try to get away from that pressure.
Speaker 2: And then they got all of these athletes with Kawhi
Speaker 2: and Paul George shrinking the floor off the ball and
Speaker 2: it's just arms everywhere, and like you could literally see
Speaker 2: Jokic changing his shot. How often do you see Jokic
Speaker 2: change his shot? He usually has just taken that same
Speaker 2: muscle memory that he's always taken. They legit had him
Speaker 2: feeling uncomfortable. And I think, and I think I have
Speaker 2: to I know, a lot of Clippers fans get on him,
Speaker 2: and he kind of is the butt of a lot
Speaker 2: of jokes on Twitter. But I think I think Zubots
Speaker 2: is awesome, and like specifically, he's very active in his
Speaker 2: drop coverages. Like he's one of the few bigs that's
Speaker 2: like actually good at stepping up and bothering that floater
Speaker 2: in that pull up jump shot in the mid range
Speaker 2: while also having the ability to get back. And he's
Speaker 2: such a unique weapon because he's actually big enough to
Speaker 2: bang with Jokic a little bit and to kind of
Speaker 2: beat him off of some of his spots. And so
Speaker 2: like in a weird way because we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about the small ball line up here in a minute,
Speaker 2: and the small ball lineup is definitely an important part
Speaker 2: of this team's identity. But I actually really like the
Speaker 2: Zubats groups just because of how good he's been defensively
Speaker 2: in their drop coverages. Can you talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about Zuebac and what he's done for this team.
Speaker 1: Man, he's the longest senior player in the team. He
Speaker 1: is a guy who he was a baby when he
Speaker 1: got here from the Lakers, and they put him in
Speaker 1: the starry lineup right away. I remember Marching Garzott was
Speaker 1: the starter and March Jim Garzot got faded out of
Speaker 1: the league shortly after that midseason, and he has been
Speaker 1: drilled for years about positional defense. Uh, this is a
Speaker 1: dude who they trusted him switching out Luka Tonsici playoff series,
Speaker 1: which worked for a year and then absolutely did not
Speaker 1: work as Luca downloaded that information and got better. Right. So, like,
Speaker 1: Zoo used to be the guy that you benched and
Speaker 1: was like, this is how we're gonna win the playoffs heres,
Speaker 1: We're gonna sit Zoo. But Zoo has become an asset
Speaker 1: for this team because his positional defense is very good,
Speaker 1: very reliable. His rim protection is it allows his team
Speaker 1: to be one of the better teams in the league
Speaker 1: at defending just your easiest shots in basketball. If he's
Speaker 1: on the floor, you know that even though he's not
Speaker 1: an explosive athlete by any means, his size is verticality.
Speaker 1: His understanding of how guys want to score over and
Speaker 1: through him. You don't even see Zoo get dunked on. Really,
Speaker 1: he's there early. He understands where to be and how
Speaker 1: to be there, and that's just it's great coaching. But
Speaker 1: it's also a player who is coachable. It's a player
Speaker 1: who has just understood his role. Like it's a player
Speaker 1: who's had to listen to Kawhi and Paul for five
Speaker 1: years straight. Now, like those dudes no good defense. Paul
Speaker 1: George was with the verticality goat Roy Ribbert. You know,
Speaker 1: Kauhi was playing with Tim Duncan, a guy who annually
Speaker 1: had more blocks than fouls. That's great when your teammates,
Speaker 1: your best teammates are guys who can teach you and
Speaker 1: and and get on you about defense. They hold each
Speaker 1: other accountable. Like, I mean, Zoo foul dearon Fox. I
Speaker 1: think late in the third quarter, I want to say
Speaker 1: it was de Aaron Tuesday night. They're up like more
Speaker 1: than twenty damn near thirty, and Kawhi is still glaring
Speaker 1: at Zoo like Jeff steering. Dude. That's where this team
Speaker 1: is at. That's where Zoo is at when those guys
Speaker 1: Kawhi and Paul aren't there, that's Zoo. Zoo is empowered
Speaker 1: to basically tell his team that they're not doing what
Speaker 1: they're supposed to do. I can't tell you how many
Speaker 1: times you just throws up his arms as if to say,
Speaker 1: where were you guys? What what was supposed to happen
Speaker 1: on this rotation? And yeah, like you know, you're basic
Speaker 1: fans who do nothing but tweek behind a burner account.
Speaker 1: They're probably just gonna, you know, be trolls about it.
Speaker 1: But the real ones know that Vincus Zoobots is not
Speaker 1: an easy player to replace, especially on the contract he's on,
Speaker 1: because the value that you get for twenty five minutes
Speaker 1: a game is not all ever place. So I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how many Daniel Gafford mentions I've gotten this year.
Speaker 1: It's like, you guys are are playing way too much
Speaker 1: two K or something. Clearly, y'all, I ain't watching the
Speaker 1: Washington Wizards. And that's not even a sight to Gaff
Speaker 1: because Gaff is a decent player. He ain't the reason
Speaker 1: that team has won three games or whatever it's been
Speaker 1: this year. But it is to say what the Vince's
Speaker 1: zoobots can do. I have more issues with his offense,
Speaker 1: but even his offense, he's playing with James Harden, and
Speaker 1: James is a great teacher. He is drilling Zoo on
Speaker 1: where to be on picking rolls. And let me tell
Speaker 1: you something, when you're good on offense, that allows you
Speaker 1: to be able to play more on defense. It works
Speaker 1: the other way around for a lot of guys. But
Speaker 1: it's like with Zoo, you don't need to worry about all.
Speaker 1: We need more spacing. We need to go smaller. You know,
Speaker 1: we want to talk about small eyes. We're not seen
Speaker 1: as much as we used to see it because they've
Speaker 1: realized and you know what, getting smacked by the Nuggets
Speaker 1: in Denver was a turning point, Jason, I'll tell you
Speaker 1: that much. This team might have leaned in the small
Speaker 1: ball a little bit more, but Daniel Tys is like,
Speaker 1: we need a legitimate backup center with Mason Plumlee rest
Speaker 1: recovering from injury, and we need to play Zoo not
Speaker 1: thirty five minutes because he can't handle that, but twenty
Speaker 1: five to thirty minutes is good for Zoo and because
Speaker 1: he's able to be competent on both ends of the floor,
Speaker 1: that is helping the team be more complete team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Daniel Tyson particular has really helped just by being
Speaker 2: a semi reliable above the break three point shooter, which
Speaker 2: has been kind of a nice touch on this team.
Speaker 2: Is something that you haven't seen. You know, you broke
Speaker 2: down earlier. The difference between like playing five out and
Speaker 2: not having a guy that can screen and roll. That
Speaker 2: was super interesting that a lot of people don't understand.
Speaker 2: Is like you think, okay, take five offensive players and
Speaker 2: move him to the perimeter.
Speaker 1: Oh, there's more.
Speaker 2: Space, right, Actually there's less space because on the perimeter
Speaker 2: you're all standing closer to each other, and so you
Speaker 2: actually do need a guy who will screen and roll
Speaker 2: into the open space. Again, all the good five out
Speaker 2: teams in the NBA, teams like Sacramento, teams like Golden State,
Speaker 2: they are anchored. Even though they run five out, they're
Speaker 2: anchored by a big man who screens on the perimeter
Speaker 2: and then rolls so that you can make space for
Speaker 2: those guys to drive. And that's why I'm generally like,
Speaker 2: I know that the small ball lineup's been successful. And again,
Speaker 2: they're two hundred and fifty two possessions without a center,
Speaker 2: plus eleven points per one hundred possessions.
Speaker 1: That's awesome.
Speaker 2: They're even rebounding well, they're getting more offensive rebounds than
Speaker 2: they're giving up. But I do think in the big picture,
Speaker 2: especially when you think about some of the teams you
Speaker 2: have to go through at the top of the Western Conference,
Speaker 2: it's good for them to have centers like Tyson and
Speaker 2: Zubots just because those guys are, in my opinion, just
Speaker 2: a prerequisite to contend against some of the really big
Speaker 2: lineups that they're gonna see. I want to talk about
Speaker 2: their offense for just a minute, because again this has
Speaker 2: been the one disappointing thing is in this thirteen game stretch,
Speaker 2: they're still just sixteenth and offense over that span. So
Speaker 2: I think it's safe to say I think some of
Speaker 2: it is important to acknowledge that some of its personnel
Speaker 2: like Terrence Man is another guy that the league tends
Speaker 2: to close out short on, just like they do with
Speaker 2: Russ And obviously Zubots is not a perimeter scorer, so
Speaker 2: like there are opportunities for people to help, but there's
Speaker 2: still a ton of offensive skill on the floor with
Speaker 2: James Harden, Paul George, Kawhi, Leonard normOn Palace playing really
Speaker 2: well as well. So like with all of that, it
Speaker 2: does feel like they're underachieving a little bit. You do
Speaker 2: you agree, And if so, what do you think they
Speaker 2: can do to improve on that end?
Speaker 1: Make shots and as everybody, that's everybody. Kawhi had some
Speaker 1: nasty games in that stretch before his heater. That's why
Speaker 1: the heater is. People were talking brand new about him
Speaker 1: the game because we've seen Kawhi have some games where
Speaker 1: he's missed ten out of twelve shots or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: like go a hole, you know, go. His clutch time
Speaker 1: numbers were awful for a while, like awful for a
Speaker 1: long time until this month. Paul George, like Paul George
Speaker 1: is always good for a stinker every ten days or so,
Speaker 1: like that's that's just what happens. You can't worry about
Speaker 1: him too much because of what he does the rest
Speaker 1: of the damn week. But yeah, like every now and again,
Speaker 1: you'll look up and you'll be like, oh, Paul didn't
Speaker 1: make a basket this second quarter. You know, it happens, James,
Speaker 1: it took him a while to act like he had
Speaker 1: permission to shoot the damn ball. It's like, the kind
Speaker 1: of system are you, James, Like they're trying to tell
Speaker 1: you to be aggressive and score the basketball. What are
Speaker 1: we doing here? And yeah, I mean Terrence Man is
Speaker 1: a guy who's been in the mid high thirties percent
Speaker 1: edge wise in his career, but he was shooting like
Speaker 1: the disrespect that he was getting from these defenses to
Speaker 1: start this season, you know, like sub twenty percent over
Speaker 1: the course of the first quarter of the year. And
Speaker 1: you could tell that he was still adjusting to a
Speaker 1: new role. He was adjusting to his body. You know,
Speaker 1: he sprained his ankle really badly before the seasons the
Speaker 1: regular season started, and by the time he gets back,
Speaker 1: he's looking at James Arden, knowing his team like you
Speaker 1: can probably tell, like and plus that dude is again
Speaker 1: being asked to guard the premier scorer on the other
Speaker 1: team as his primary assignment, Like you don't know how
Speaker 1: your energy is going to hold up, especially when you're
Speaker 1: getting into the flow of the season. So guys just
Speaker 1: need to make shots. This is a team that is
Speaker 1: a bit too gun shy about certain things. And it's
Speaker 1: not just threes, it's you know, for a while, the
Speaker 1: dudes was missing layups like Zoo was getting blocked by guards.
Speaker 1: Daniel Tice shows that he's a six to eight center
Speaker 1: on the other side of thirty a little bit too often,
Speaker 1: you know, like he'll miss bunnies and that's your backup center. PJ.
Speaker 1: Tucker has made one shot inside the three point line
Speaker 1: this entire time he's been with the Clippers. He's not
Speaker 1: even in the rotation anymore. Kobe Brown, he had a
Speaker 1: dunk for the first time this season in Garbage Times Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I was like, more of that. You know, I'm always
Speaker 1: gonna celebrate dunk his health. Dunk means you can still
Speaker 1: do it, you know. James gottisers dunk do the night before.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was asking for it. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't do what the troll dudes. It's like, nah,
Speaker 1: if you're dunking, something went very well either how it
Speaker 1: got there your body's feeling good, like you Yeah, like
Speaker 1: difference between laying it up and dunk, and it's like,
Speaker 1: always dunk, That's what I always say. And so I
Speaker 1: think that you're going to see some regression to a
Speaker 1: certain mean, And it's not a regression to the mean
Speaker 1: as far as how the league's playing or how this
Speaker 1: team's playing this season. It's a matter of these guys.
Speaker 1: We've seen them play over the course of multiple NBA seasons.
Speaker 1: We know that, hey, Russell Wesbrok probably won't shoot the
Speaker 1: three as well as he did last year. We saw that.
Speaker 1: But we also know that Terrence man ain't gonna shoot
Speaker 1: twenty percent from three. He might not reach mid thirties
Speaker 1: this year because it's been so bad to start, but
Speaker 1: he's going to approach the level of shooter that made
Speaker 1: him the high floor player that he is, that made
Speaker 1: him the valuable player that he is. So you're already
Speaker 1: seeing it. Those offensive numbers are looking better in December
Speaker 1: where they're undefeated than they were in the November portion
Speaker 1: of the year, where you know, yeah, you know, you
Speaker 1: can start it with James's four point play, but when
Speaker 1: they were in that five and seven stretch, they lost.
Speaker 1: You know, they lost three of those games, right, so
Speaker 1: you know they didn't look very good in those three games.
Speaker 1: They've had some wins where they beat the Mavericks. They
Speaker 1: blew the Mavericks out, but that was a defensive win.
Speaker 1: Their offense looked like a second night of it back
Speaker 1: to back. They are getting better over the course of
Speaker 1: this month, so you will see those offensive numbers continue
Speaker 1: to improve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're going to improve no matter what,
Speaker 2: just from a simple standpoint of talent. And you're right
Speaker 2: about the shot results, specifically pull up jump shooting. There
Speaker 2: are some pull up shooters on their team that aren't
Speaker 2: making shots as high a clip as you normally would see.
Speaker 2: I do think it's important to emphasize two that they
Speaker 2: are playing really hard on defense, and like that's just
Speaker 2: the way it goes when you're in Whenever you're playing
Speaker 2: really competitive defensive basketball, you're tired on offense, and that
Speaker 2: will affect your shot result to a certain extent. I
Speaker 2: think if I had to point to one thing that
Speaker 2: is process oriented, because again, when they are maintaining athletes
Speaker 2: like Terrence Man and Russell Westbrook on the floor, you
Speaker 2: sacrifice your spacing a little bit, But I point to
Speaker 2: shot selection a little bit like one of the things
Speaker 2: that I was hoping for when James Harden came on
Speaker 2: board is this team was very much like the Suns
Speaker 2: and the Nets of old when James Harden and Kyrie
Speaker 2: were there, where they almost it seems like they're hunting
Speaker 2: pull up jump shots almost every single possession. And one
Speaker 2: of the things I was hoping is like, oh, maybe
Speaker 2: James Harden will come in and get the defense into
Speaker 2: rotation more often so that they get more driving layups
Speaker 2: and catching shoot threes out of that essentially, And unfortunately
Speaker 2: that hasn't been the case. The Clippers still lead the
Speaker 2: league in pull up jump shot attempts per game according
Speaker 2: to Synergy. So I do think there's a certain and like,
Speaker 2: there's one guy I'll point to here and I do
Speaker 2: this drives me crazy. Paul George has a bag unbelievable hooper.
Speaker 2: One of the guys that I personally watch all the
Speaker 2: time and try to emulate, just absolutely love Paul George.
Speaker 2: That dude takes so many impossible shots, like his shot
Speaker 2: diet is so difficult, more so than it needs to be.
Speaker 2: And I do think that little things like that could
Speaker 2: go a long way. And I'll give you an example,
Speaker 2: like Joel Embiid is a guy who's like a famous
Speaker 2: playoff underachiever, right, And part of the reason for that
Speaker 2: is he doesn't actually score in the paint that much,
Speaker 2: like because he relies so much on grifting and he
Speaker 2: takes so many of these fifteen footers. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that I'm kind of encouraged about this year
Speaker 2: is and beat scoring in the paint a lot more.
Speaker 2: And I think that'll be something that can lean on
Speaker 2: a little bit further when they get into the playoffs.
Speaker 2: And so I'd like to see the Clippers show a
Speaker 2: little bit more of an ability to generate quality shots
Speaker 2: that are not pull up jump shots, because I think
Speaker 2: that'll go a long way towards helping them get to
Speaker 2: Because I think six team's too low. This feels like
Speaker 2: an offense that should be in that seven to eight range.
Speaker 2: But if they were ever to get to that three
Speaker 2: to four range, I think they'd have to be a
Speaker 2: little bit more deliberate about getting the right shots. But
Speaker 2: we are running out of time, so I want to
Speaker 2: ask you one more question before we get out of here.
Speaker 2: You and I are yet to talk big picture NBA
Speaker 2: at all, And I'm just curious what would you rank
Speaker 2: as your let's just say, your top five contenders out
Speaker 2: of the Western Conference right now?
Speaker 1: Man, the West is so interesting right now because top
Speaker 1: three in the West is Minnesota. Okay, see Dallas. You
Speaker 1: know you're talking about last year's eight seed, a team
Speaker 1: that lost to play in and a team that would
Speaker 1: rather get fined than participate in a play in. So
Speaker 1: those teams are playing great basketball, and those teams are also,
Speaker 1: for completely different reasons, thoroughly untrustworthy to sustain the pace
Speaker 1: that they've established. And you know, Minnesota's playing so well
Speaker 1: that you almost have to go and put them in
Speaker 1: just as a means of respect, being number one in
Speaker 1: the West through how many games. But just like that
Speaker 1: Pelicans team that I told you about from two years
Speaker 1: ago of being last, and you know, I mean you
Speaker 1: got a Minnesota team. New Orleans was number one in
Speaker 1: the West for a portion of December, and they fell
Speaker 1: into the play tournament ironically because they couldn't beat a
Speaker 1: temporal team. Even though Rudy Goberro's punching his own teammates
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna you know, Minnesota, there's always something right
Speaker 1: around the corner. But when you know that it's tied
Speaker 1: to availability of players, that's what makes you go, well, look,
Speaker 1: they're really good. And yes, if something does happen to Cat,
Speaker 1: if something does happen to Ready, if something does happen
Speaker 1: to seventeen year NBA veteran Mike Confley, yes that team
Speaker 1: will be in trouble for however long Theose guys are.
Speaker 1: I don't even care what Ant does because Ann is
Speaker 1: a constant. But Cat's health is Cat's health matters, Rudy's
Speaker 1: health matters. They don't have replaceable they're not deep. It
Speaker 1: hasn't mattered. Hell, they've had Jaden out for a portion
Speaker 1: of the season already due to injury. He's back, so
Speaker 1: you know that they can sustain without him. But the
Speaker 1: things that make Minnesota go, like those guys are older
Speaker 1: or guys who've been recently banged up, and they've been
Speaker 1: okay for right now, you got to give them, put
Speaker 1: them on the list just out of means of respect. Okay,
Speaker 1: see they're young, but also Shay is amazing, and so
Speaker 1: you almost got to keep them. I'm not keeping Dallas.
Speaker 1: There's no way I'm trusting a team that relies so
Speaker 1: much on Luca and relies on any version of Kyrie
Speaker 1: Urshi Again, no disrespect. Just look at the track record
Speaker 1: you expect Dallas might slip some like they're just not
Speaker 1: that good. Luca is that good, and Kyrie is a
Speaker 1: damn good number two when he's available. Kyrie's not available
Speaker 1: right now, So lucas about to do a lot and
Speaker 1: we're gonna see how long it takes Kyrie to get back.
Speaker 1: Denver's are defending champs, They're in the middle of the pack.
Speaker 1: They know how to win. They gotta be contenders. The
Speaker 1: Lakers they got themselves a banner that they're gonna raise,
Speaker 1: So let's just put them on there, just just for that,
Speaker 1: I guess, and that this spot is tough, man Like,
Speaker 1: I don't really you know, I don't really know who
Speaker 1: had who had who had picked. To be honest with you,
Speaker 1: I know that the Clippers have a better record than
Speaker 1: the Suns. I cover the Clippers, but I'm not the
Speaker 1: bias type. I'm not the type to just say because
Speaker 1: I see them every time, like, I don't do any
Speaker 1: of that stuff. I'm you know, wholesome content over here.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to I'm going to give the Sons
Speaker 1: a trial run with the dudes that they brought together
Speaker 1: and see if they can figure it out. The Sons
Speaker 1: are the worst fourth quarter team in basketball, not just offense,
Speaker 1: they are the worst fourth quarter team in offense. They
Speaker 1: had another unseerious fourth quarter against a NET team that
Speaker 1: had a bunch of dudes who used to wear that
Speaker 1: uniform in Phoenix. They showed out. And so I want
Speaker 1: to see if Bradley Beal can get himself to play
Speaker 1: decent basketball with those other two guys. Katie a point
Speaker 1: guard in Devin Booker, who you're seeing the good and
Speaker 1: bad of having Devin Booker as your point guard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's amazing and we'll put up great numbers, but you
Speaker 1: also know that he's got the ball all the time
Speaker 1: and that's gonna wear him out, and he's missed some time,
Speaker 1: and you don't have any alternatives on your roster, not
Speaker 1: even a pretend alternative Jordan Goodwin and Saving Lee. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you basically pun at the point gard situation. I'm familiar
Speaker 1: with that. I've covered a seam like that. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's as good as you think is gonna be,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna put him on there because they have
Speaker 1: that top heavy talent and we have not really seen
Speaker 1: it come together. I saw a team that failed failed
Speaker 1: initially with their top heavy talent of James Russ, Kawhi
Speaker 1: and PG and turned it around as those guys got
Speaker 1: more time and more information. So it's early. It's December.
Speaker 1: Those are the five teams that I would go with
Speaker 1: with complete reservations to change this in two months.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that I have the Sun still
Speaker 2: as a safer bet in the big picture than the Clippers.
Speaker 2: But there's no question that the Clippers have been a
Speaker 2: more impressive team this season so far in terms of
Speaker 2: their regular season and the quality wins like the Suns
Speaker 2: are yet to notch a quality win like that. That's
Speaker 2: literally something they don't have in their accomplishment that yet
Speaker 2: this year. Quickly, before we get out of here, he
Speaker 2: used to playing any pickup basketball these days.
Speaker 1: Man, I got a story coming out any day now
Speaker 1: about something like that, So stay tuned.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, Yeah, I've just coming back this week. I
Speaker 2: took a month and a half off because of this
Speaker 2: achilles issue that I've been dealing with, which has been
Speaker 2: a huge pain. But just by getting back out and
Speaker 2: playing this week. It's been like such a breath of
Speaker 2: fresh air, because when I'm not playing, I'm like I
Speaker 2: straight spiral into depression. Well, law, I sincerely appreciate you
Speaker 2: giving us a good amount of your time today. Can
Speaker 2: you tell us where we can find your work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm at the Athletic, you know, shout out to
Speaker 1: the Athletic. We got great, great people on there. I'm
Speaker 1: still on all the socials and control a lot of them,
Speaker 1: trying to see if threads is popping a little bit more.
Speaker 1: So sometimes you got to take from one to give
Speaker 1: a little time to the other. This is a dead
Speaker 1: part of the season and season tournaments over, so we
Speaker 1: got to talk about things like ceiling basketball is after
Speaker 1: sixty point games. So I'm excited for the holiday season.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to, you know, continue to learn more about
Speaker 1: the league that we're covering and and and that's it.
Speaker 1: Like I'm looking forward to, you know, getting through this month.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the conversations will change in January since
Speaker 1: that's when the trade ones will really blow.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, man and I we'll try to get you
Speaker 2: on again before the end of the season. And I
Speaker 2: definitely want to see you in Vegas in July, and
Speaker 2: maybe before then if we're lucky for a hoop session.
Speaker 2: I appreciate your time. Thank you all of you guys
Speaker 2: for supporting the show. We will be back tomorrow with
Speaker 2: an old fashioned film session and I'll see you guys.
Speaker 1: Then the volume