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Speaker 1: Welcome to Invention, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey

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Speaker 1: you welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. You know, humans are aware of history.

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Speaker 1: That's that's one of our our key attributes. Not always though,

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Speaker 1: well to varying degrees, we're aware of history, or we

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Speaker 1: have awareness of of of what we think history to

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Speaker 1: be uh and uh. And not just our own personal history,

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Speaker 1: but history across generations, across decades, across centuries, millennia. Even

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Speaker 1: we're aware of what came before via oral traditions and

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Speaker 1: the evidence of the world around us, even as we

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Speaker 1: continually change in anticipation of the future. And then of

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Speaker 1: course we have recorded history as well, and we have

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Speaker 1: a concept of history that goes beyond concern for literal

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Speaker 1: accuracy about what happened in the past. I think about

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Speaker 1: everything from ancient mythologies in which people tried to construct

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Speaker 1: a you know, not not literally existent version of their past,

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Speaker 1: but something to sort of explain the present, all the

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Speaker 1: way to the kinds of mythical histories that people still

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Speaker 1: like to engage in today. You know, ancient aliens and all,

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Speaker 1: you know, half the stuff on the history shows on TV.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, inevitably history ends up melding with myth, and

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Speaker 1: you really don't have to go too far back in

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Speaker 1: history for that to take place, for for the historical

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Speaker 1: to become the legendary at least. But one thing that

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Speaker 1: makes clear, I think, is that we have a kind

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Speaker 1: of craving for something that we think of as history

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Speaker 1: that is not always exactly the same thing as knowing

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Speaker 1: what's actually true about what happened X number of years ago, right, right,

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Speaker 1: So establishing just from the get go that the human

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Speaker 1: contemplation of history is in and of itself kind of

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Speaker 1: a complex thing. Uh, narrative becomes an essential part of it,

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Speaker 1: but also a complicating aspect of it. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: their additional concerns we're going to get into, know when

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Speaker 1: we when we think about history. I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the things about human use of history is that we're

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Speaker 1: able to pass information on in a way that doesn't

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Speaker 1: depend on our genetics. So a big part of it is,

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Speaker 1: of course just recorded histories literature about the past. But then, uh,

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Speaker 1: there are the artifacts of the past. Uh, there are

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Speaker 1: the artifacts of the distant past, the the the relatively

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Speaker 1: recent past, um, artifacts of the present, and all of

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Speaker 1: these things find their way into museums. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: to think about what you're feeling about ancient Egypt would

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Speaker 1: be if you could only have read about it and

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Speaker 1: you never could have seen any of its artifacts, any

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Speaker 1: of its artwork. You've never seen images of the pyramids,

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Speaker 1: never seen the ancient figurines or the sarcophag guy or

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Speaker 1: anything like that, there would be a necessary texture that

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Speaker 1: would be lacking. Do your understanding of what ancient Egypt was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and of course to today, we have so many tools

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Speaker 1: at our disposal to say, understand ancient Egypt of one thing,

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Speaker 1: We just we have a better understanding than ever before.

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Speaker 1: There's still a lot of things we don't know, but

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Speaker 1: we but you know, we're at the bleeding edge of

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Speaker 1: our understanding. Um and uh. And on top of that,

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Speaker 1: we have photography, we have the motion picture, we have

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Speaker 1: computer imagery, we have just a whole host of of

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Speaker 1: inventions that have made it, first of all, made it

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Speaker 1: easier for us to understand what agent Egypt was like.

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Speaker 1: And it's made it easier for people all around the

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Speaker 1: world to get a grasp of it. Like you, you

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Speaker 1: no longer have to travel to ancient Egypt as certainly

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Speaker 1: even the Romans, did the ancient Romans uh consider in

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Speaker 1: their contemplation of the even more ancient Egyptians. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then likewise you don't even have to be able to

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Speaker 1: travel to a museum that has artifacts that have been

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Speaker 1: transported from Egypt. Obviously you can go to websites, you

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Speaker 1: can go to uh two books, to films, etcetera. Of

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Speaker 1: the museum is still important. Yeah, that's exactly right, and

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Speaker 1: it's important in multiple ways. I mean, I think about

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Speaker 1: the two main ways it's important. Number one, of course,

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Speaker 1: is just the preservation and display of artifacts to show

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Speaker 1: you what they looked like, you know, to give you

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Speaker 1: the physical representation. But then I think equally as important

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Speaker 1: is the contextualizing literature of a museum, the interpretive material.

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Speaker 1: Because you know, this is often pointed out by archaeologists

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Speaker 1: and historians that if we only form our picture of

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Speaker 1: a past civilization by looking at its physical artifacts, there

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Speaker 1: is a necessary sort of uh, filtering mechanism there. That's time.

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Speaker 1: You don't see all the aspects of the civilization that

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Speaker 1: are prone to that are biodegradable, or that are prone

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Speaker 1: to erosion breaking down over time. Uh, so I mean

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Speaker 1: there's sort of this joke about like, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you only look at the artifacts and you don't read

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Speaker 1: about the other things or see sort of artists representations

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Speaker 1: of what the other thing surrounding these artifacts might have been.

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Speaker 1: You could assume that everyone in ancient Egypt like walked

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Speaker 1: around in stone clothes. Yeah yeah, Or you know that

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Speaker 1: that all the the art, all the sculpture and ancient

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Speaker 1: Rome was unpainted and you know, stoic and gray. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's essentially in this sense, the archaeological and the

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Speaker 1: anthropological are very much like paleontology. Uh, you know, It's

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to look at the even the reassembled

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the resembled fossils of a prehistoric creature.

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Speaker 1: But then there are all the things that did not

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Speaker 1: survive that we have to piece together, uh to get

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Speaker 1: a full understanding of what this creature was or might

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Speaker 1: have been. Yeah, the skin across time. Uh, that can

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Speaker 1: all be represented in the interpretive materials of a museum.

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Speaker 1: So those are I think equally as important as just

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Speaker 1: like having an artifact and preserving it from being destroyed

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Speaker 1: by the elements. Oh yeah, Like I think of the

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Speaker 1: like the really great museums I've been to, and I'm

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Speaker 1: and I've been fortunate enough to get to go to

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Speaker 1: you know, a number of more fortunate enough to live

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Speaker 1: in a city that have some very nice museums as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: But but there's a you know, there's a journey you

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Speaker 1: go on. There's there's a story that you involve yourself

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Speaker 1: in when you're when you when you're in a really

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Speaker 1: good museum or a really good exhibit. Uh. And I

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Speaker 1: think you know, part of that too is like it

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Speaker 1: appeals to spatial learning. UM. For instance, free plug for

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Speaker 1: the Firm Bank Museum here in Atlanta. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they have a section called the like the Georgia walk

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Speaker 1: Through Time and uh it's something that you know, kids

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Speaker 1: that grew up in the Atlanta area have been going

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Speaker 1: to for a long time and they probably end up

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Speaker 1: taking it for granted. But you know, there's this it's

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Speaker 1: like a spatial journey you do walk through time you

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Speaker 1: get to uh, you know, go through these exhibits and

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Speaker 1: get kind of a you know, a walk through of

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Speaker 1: geologic history and uh. And I think that's important likewise

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Speaker 1: with with fossils and and reproductions or even u taxidermy

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Speaker 1: um animals. There is something about being in the physical

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Speaker 1: presence of either this creature or representation of this creature

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Speaker 1: that that just gives you an understanding of it that

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily get from a book or a description

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Speaker 1: or a film or even some sort of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a virtual reality simulation. Yeah, that's right. And so later

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Speaker 1: in the episode we are going to discuss some of

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Speaker 1: the potential drawbacks and other considerations to have about museum culture.

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Speaker 1: But there is certainly a thing that is great about

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Speaker 1: museum culture, like the tendency to want to preserve history

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Speaker 1: and explain it right and to and also can can

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Speaker 1: forge an emotional connection. Like I believe it was the

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Speaker 1: Field Museum. I believe we we we were there together

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Speaker 1: because we had a work thing up there, and uh,

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Speaker 1: they had an exhibit about where they had an artistic

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Speaker 1: recreation of slave ship and you like walk through the

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Speaker 1: hold of it and it's, uh, you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: a really emotional experience. It just brings you know, I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, it brought tears to my eyes, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it was like that's an example where you know,

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Speaker 1: you have this positive emotional manipulation to a certain extent

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Speaker 1: by the by the museum, you know, to give you

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Speaker 1: this emotional connection with the topic. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: easy to overlook when we think of museums because you

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Speaker 1: can think of them as as just like a stoic

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Speaker 1: presentation of artifacts that are perhaps lacking in context, or

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Speaker 1: acquire a great deal of reading a fine print, but

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Speaker 1: they could also help you feel the pain and passion

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Speaker 1: of people who have been long dead, right um. The

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Museum here in Atlanta also does a tremendous

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Speaker 1: job through you know, all sorts of like multimedia of uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, being able to like there's one exhibit where

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Speaker 1: you you sit at a lunch counter and you wear

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Speaker 1: headphones to give you the experience of of being a

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Speaker 1: protester during the civil rights movement in America. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's little things like that often with with you know,

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Speaker 1: some technological bells and whistles which you've you've used wisely,

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Speaker 1: you know, can just really enhance what the museum is

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Speaker 1: able to do from you know, an education an old perspective.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right, And that's that's a good point about

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Speaker 1: how you know, museums today are much more than just uh,

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Speaker 1: the storage and display of physical artifacts. I mean that's

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Speaker 1: the sort of classic museum tradition is like you have

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Speaker 1: an object of some kind of significance. It's a work

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Speaker 1: of art or an artifact found through archaeology or something

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Speaker 1: or a you know, it's natural history. Maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: mineral or a bone or something like that, um, and

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Speaker 1: and that's on display. But yeah, museums are bigger than that. Now.

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Speaker 1: They're there in many ways a sort of just like

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Speaker 1: place you can go to engage with some form or

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Speaker 1: other of history, right and and or so, or even

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Speaker 1: celebrate it, you know, such as you know, when I

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Speaker 1: think of some of our better, you know, science and

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Speaker 1: technology museums, it's like a a space where where science

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Speaker 1: is celebrated, and there will be various uh activities going

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Speaker 1: on to aid in that celebration, from say a science

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Speaker 1: themed playroom for very small children, to say a lecture

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Speaker 1: series for uh, for for older individuals who you know

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Speaker 1: who needs something more, you know, so stances. So I

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Speaker 1: guess the question is how did humans start doing this?

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Speaker 1: Like when did the museum tradition begin? When when did

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Speaker 1: we first get the idea that you would uh that

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Speaker 1: you would put objects on display or have some kind

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Speaker 1: of a place where you could you could go to

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Speaker 1: interact with educational materials like this, right. And I think

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Speaker 1: an important thing that we're we're kind of skipping over

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Speaker 1: and all this is that, um is that a museum

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Speaker 1: ideally and um and generally the better examples that we

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Speaker 1: tend to focus on are going to be open for everyone.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's not just a matter of oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this university has a storeroom of artifacts, or this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this institution or this family has some wonderful pieces set aside. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You you'd love it if you could see it. Now,

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Speaker 1: A museum is ideally a place that is open to

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Speaker 1: the people and the and and and everyone is allowed

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Speaker 1: to venture in and engage with the materials there. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: just the king's treasure room of like artifacts collected from

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Speaker 1: the you know, from the cities he has conquered, is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily a museum because that's just his treasure room. Right.

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Speaker 1: And you're probably not invited, And it's probably better if

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Speaker 1: you're not invited, because it sounds like like a dangerous

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Speaker 1: place to venture into. Uh. You know, when I started

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Speaker 1: thinking just sort of you know, casually at first, you

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Speaker 1: know about the history museums. I started thinking, okay, well

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Speaker 1: what are you know? What are some of the museums

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Speaker 1: that I've been to and how old are they? And

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Speaker 1: if if everyone else does his exercise as well, I

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Speaker 1: think you'll know that, you know, most of the museums

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Speaker 1: that come to mind our products of fairly recent history. UM.

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Speaker 1: And obviously this holds true for the various American museums

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Speaker 1: I've visited, and even the British Natural History Museum is

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Speaker 1: a product of colonial expansion and wasn't found into the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, um, spun off from a private collection and uh,

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Speaker 1: and we still see that that kind of movement going

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Speaker 1: on to this day. You know, we'll have large private

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Speaker 1: collections that are either um continued that you're donated to

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Speaker 1: a museum or spun off into a useum of some sort.

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Speaker 1: But the oldest museum in the UK, for instance, the

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Speaker 1: Royal Armories in the Tower of London, only goes back

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Speaker 1: to fifteen two, with public access emerging in sixteen sixty.

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Speaker 1: Now generally at this point in the podcast, you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about what came before the invention, what was

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Speaker 1: the world leading up to that? And I think probably

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Speaker 1: the best exercise here is to is to and not

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Speaker 1: to try and think of like a world without museums,

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Speaker 1: but think of the various things in history that are

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Speaker 1: sort of like a museum but not quite. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: first of all, we already mentioned like the King's treasure room. Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have conquered many cities and many great lands,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you you took artifacts that were sacred to them,

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Speaker 1: and then you brought it back to your treasure room

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Speaker 1: and you kept it locked up for yourself. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's certainly kind of like a museum,

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Speaker 1: but not a museum. And we should note I mean

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Speaker 1: that many museums. I mean one of the sort of

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Speaker 1: like counterpoints to the good things about a museum is

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Speaker 1: that lots of great museums around the world today do

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Speaker 1: represent a kind of colonial under Yeah. I mean there

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Speaker 1: there are cases whereas there are objects, you know, in

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Speaker 1: British museums that are of great historical significance, but that

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Speaker 1: you know, we're taken from other peoples around the world

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Speaker 1: by colonial invaders from Great Britain exactly. So yeah, the

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Speaker 1: King's Horde of Treasures is uh, it's it's not a museum,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, it does have a lot

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Speaker 1: in common and I think that's going to be the

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Speaker 1: case with all these not quite museum examples we're gonna

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Speaker 1: touch on. You know, it's also worth pointing out that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's been long fashionable in human culture to

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Speaker 1: steal treasures and art from a defeated adversary. Um on

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind. We had a couple of

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Speaker 1: episodes about the Ark of the Covenant, and of course

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Speaker 1: the stories of the Ark of the Covenant involved it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's captured by the Philistines and later it's captured and

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Speaker 1: possible destruction by the Babylonians, and the Philistines were said

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Speaker 1: to have displayed the captured arc in their own Temple

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Speaker 1: of Dagon. Uh though of course, uh, you know this,

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Speaker 1: we don't know to what extent this you know, there's

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Speaker 1: reality behind this, or if it's just a myth, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: But still it drives home that like this is this

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Speaker 1: is the sort of thing people did. Uh. They were

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Speaker 1: to crush or defeat an enemy, sacked their cities where

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Speaker 1: they would take their their treasured items back with them.

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Speaker 1: Right now, another case from from history that that kind

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Speaker 1: of lines up with with a lot of this are

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Speaker 1: the Roman triumphs, in which the treasures, art, wealth, and

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Speaker 1: armies of defeated enemies were marched through the city as

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Speaker 1: a spectacle. Uh and you know, along with captives, some

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Speaker 1: to be executed or displayed. Further so sort of a

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Speaker 1: you know, an even more intense example of sort of

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Speaker 1: the more brutal aspects of museum like enterprises. Seem to recall,

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Speaker 1: there's a scene of this Entitus Andronicus, I think, where

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Speaker 1: there's like a yeah, there's like a parade of the enemies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah they defeated some Germanic tribe or something, right, and

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Speaker 1: yeah they're they're the famous accounts of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of like this awful Roman circus of

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Speaker 1: of you know, it's read rather uncomfortable to contemplate um,

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Speaker 1: and so we we don't want that to be our

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Speaker 1: music ms. But then again, like the shadow of that

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Speaker 1: is cast over even our modern museums, and of course

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Speaker 1: in the even in just in the last century, we've

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Speaker 1: we've seen museums raided, looted, or destroyed due to military action.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's sad like continues to be the

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Speaker 1: case that when when groups of people go to war

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Speaker 1: with each other, um treasures, artifacts, items of historical or

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Speaker 1: cultural importance are often targeted. Now the like rooms full

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Speaker 1: of artifacts are not only created when, say, you know,

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Speaker 1: a conquering power or colonial power or something goes and

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Speaker 1: takes from one culture and brings back home. People also

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Speaker 1: create rooms full of artifacts from their own culture. I

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Speaker 1: mean a common way you find this is in tombs

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world exactly, yeah, I mean unstuffable in

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Speaker 1: your mind. Especially we've discussed the tombs of ancient Egypt,

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Speaker 1: the tombs of ancient China, uh, and these are you know,

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Speaker 1: these are examples where generally it has to do with

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Speaker 1: some contemplation of the afterlife, or the at least the

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Speaker 1: idea that if if there is not a world for

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Speaker 1: the ruler to pass into and presumably take their things,

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Speaker 1: then there is still some continuation of identity in the

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Speaker 1: body that is preserved, and therefore the the items, the wealth,

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Speaker 1: all the material possessions or some form of them need

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Speaker 1: to be preserved there as well. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like a museum, but for the most part you are

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Speaker 1: not invited to enter into Generally, it's it's looked down upon.

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Speaker 1: It's not designed to serve an educational purpose, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have interpretive materials. These are these are just I'm

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Speaker 1: taking all my lute to the next world, right, and

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Speaker 1: I might put a crossbow trap in there just in

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Speaker 1: case you try and enter. Now another we we touched

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Speaker 1: a little bit on this already bringing up Dagon, but

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Speaker 1: uh temple is another example of something that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like a museum, a place where valuable and important artifacts

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Speaker 1: may well be displayed for lots of people, if not everybody,

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Speaker 1: then at least for a key demographic to view and admire.

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Speaker 1: And many cases the works are instructional in nature, you know,

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Speaker 1: a means of seeing the form of a god or

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Speaker 1: goddesses or visually contemplating complex theological concepts like one sees

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Speaker 1: so particularly in Tibetan art. I mean, I think about

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Speaker 1: the relics and uh, the ways that many Catholic basilicas

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Speaker 1: will say, preserve the remains of a sainted person. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then yeah, so we kind of have like a

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Speaker 1: dash of the tomb there as well. Right, But there's

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Speaker 1: something kind of museum e about that. Here's an object

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Speaker 1: from the past, it's on display for people to come

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Speaker 1: look at. Yeah. Yeah, and then there's also the shrine,

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Speaker 1: which you know, can be something like a tomb and

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Speaker 1: something like a temple. But of course there are secular

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Speaker 1: versions of this as well throughout the world. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you go to Washington, d C. And you have all

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Speaker 1: the you go to these monuments, these essentially shrines, and these,

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Speaker 1: you know, often are about celebrating something that is tied

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Speaker 1: to cultural or national heritage. Large scale statues as well

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Speaker 1: public statues are generally a good example of this as well.

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Speaker 1: Right now, speaking of shrine, this actually brings us to

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Speaker 1: the word museum itself. So museum derives from the Latin

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Speaker 1: what is it tom in, which means precisely this a

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Speaker 1: shrine to the muses um the muses of course with

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Speaker 1: the Greek goddesses of creativity and inspiration. Yeah, so, so

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Speaker 1: we've got a shrine to the muses as the museon

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Speaker 1: and then that becomes the idea of the museum. I

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Speaker 1: guess that that word is coined probably much later, to

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Speaker 1: refer to what we think of this museums. Right. For instance,

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Speaker 1: if we go back to the third century b C.

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Speaker 1: We have the Museum of Alexandria to consider, which included

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Speaker 1: the famed Library of Alexandria, and it was founded by Ptolemy,

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Speaker 1: the first Soter and noted for being who is noted

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Speaker 1: for being the traveling companion and chronicler of Alexander the Great. However,

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Speaker 1: the museum in this case was was not a display

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Speaker 1: of collected art, but a center of learned ing that

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Speaker 1: ultimately has more in common with a university. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: know that we might think of today. Um, and uh,

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Speaker 1: this was seemingly destroyed in the late third century. See um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, more more like a university, a place of learning,

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Speaker 1: a place where learned individuals would gather and celebrate knowledge.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of stuff kind of like

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Speaker 1: this in the ancient world, but nothing that is quite

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Speaker 1: like we think of a modern museum, right. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you can you can make a case that specific

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Speaker 1: museums or museums in general reflect these general attitudes to

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Speaker 1: this day. But yeah, none of these. You can't look

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Speaker 1: at any of these and go like, oh, that was

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Speaker 1: a museum, and it's like no, one, No, it was

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Speaker 1: a treasure hoard. It was really more of a temple.

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Speaker 1: So indeed, museums are would seem to be more of

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Speaker 1: a modern venture, right, largely rooted in the private wonder

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Speaker 1: rooms or cabinets of curiosities, uh than individuals and families had.

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Speaker 1: And then the more modern museums tend to emerge out

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Speaker 1: of these traditions. In fact, you know, if you look

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Speaker 1: around for some of the example, the oldest examples of

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Speaker 1: things that are museums, uh, you know, a few that

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Speaker 1: often pop Two that often pop up are the Capital

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Speaker 1: Line museums, the oldest public collections, the oldest public collection

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Speaker 1: of art in the world. This is in Rome dates

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Speaker 1: back to fourteen seventy one and Pope six to the

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Speaker 1: fourth donation of art to the people of Rome. You

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Speaker 1: have the Vatican Museums have their origin as a public

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Speaker 1: in public display in fifteen o six under Pope Julius

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Speaker 1: the Second. But uh, and we might be tempted to

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Speaker 1: stop there, right and say, oh, well, okay, well there

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Speaker 1: you go. This is these are some of the earliest examples.

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Speaker 1: But uh, there is a much older example we're going

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Speaker 1: to get to in this episode that certainly predates anything

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Speaker 1: that happened with the Catholic Church. Yeah, and this one, also,

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Speaker 1: I guess is a matter of interpretation, because what you

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Speaker 1: define as a museum is going to be a matter

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Speaker 1: of interpretation. But this is going to be, uh, the

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Speaker 1: earliest known music. I'm according to the great British archaeologist

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Speaker 1: Charles Leonard Woolley. So we don't know for sure when

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Speaker 1: the first museum was created, but I think there's a

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Speaker 1: really reasonable chance that the earliest museum we know about

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Speaker 1: was actually the first one in history. So let's take

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Speaker 1: a journey to ancient Mesopotamia. Oh yes, all right, So

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Speaker 1: we're going to go to the city of or. Or

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Speaker 1: was once one of the great power centers of ancient Mesopotamia.

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Speaker 1: And if you see photos of the sand covered ruins

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Speaker 1: of the city and it's partially restored great ziggurat today,

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Speaker 1: it might be hard to imagine that this was once

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Speaker 1: like a really thriving, lush, fertile settlement in the ancient world.

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Speaker 1: Today it's situated in the desert of southern Iraq, about

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Speaker 1: sixteen kilometers or about ten miles from the Euphrates River.

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Speaker 1: And uh and this is a rough measurement that I

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Speaker 1: calculated through Google Maps. It's about two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: kilometers or about a hundred and fifty miles from the

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Speaker 1: coast of the Persian Gulf, and I've read in some

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Speaker 1: sources that in ancient times Or was considered more like

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Speaker 1: a coastal city. That I guess the Persian Gulf stretched

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Speaker 1: farther up into where you would now have southern Mesopotamia.

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Speaker 1: But in ancient times, the Euphrates River it took a

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Speaker 1: different course and it ran much closer to the city,

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Speaker 1: making it this this lush, fertile place that was it

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Speaker 1: was a great place for a city, and it's a

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Speaker 1: place to consider the scale of history because archaeologists believe

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Speaker 1: that it was founded sometime in like the fourth millennium

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Speaker 1: b C, so that that's going to be many thousands

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Speaker 1: of years old to us. In the early Dynastic period

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Speaker 1: of the ancient Sumerian kings, Or became the capital of

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Speaker 1: southern Mesopotamia, and this would have been around the twenty

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Speaker 1: fifth century BC. So to do a history exercise that

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Speaker 1: we've sent sometimes done on stuff to blow your mind before,

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Speaker 1: just reminding you, like how much time elapsed through the

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Speaker 1: part of the world history that we think of as ancient.

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Speaker 1: Imagine your Julius Caesar and you're living in the first

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Speaker 1: century b C. To you, as Julius Caesar, the old

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Speaker 1: Kingdom of Egypt, which was liked, and the ancient dynasties

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Speaker 1: of Mesopotamia. I wish it would have been roughly the

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Speaker 1: same time. Those time periods were more ancient to you,

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Speaker 1: as Julius Caesar in the Roman Republic than the Roman

430
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: Empire is to us. Ancient Rome is significantly more recent

431
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: to us than those ancient civilizations were to the ancient Romans.

432
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: More time passed between Sargon of a Cod and Julius

433
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: Caesar than between Julius Caesar and us. That's the scale

434
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: of the history of civilization. And when you think about

435
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 1: all that time, all the relics and remains of all

436
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: those thousands of years coming and going, it's hard not

437
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: to realize that the people who are ancient from our

438
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: point of view, also had to contend with history and

439
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: the idea of its memory, its preservation, and its destruction.

440
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: And so sometimes history and even nostalgia can kind of

441
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: feel like recently invented concepts. They're absolutely not. And a

442
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: great example is a Neo Babylonian king who lived in

443
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: the city of or So that This was a man

444
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: named Nabonidas who was the last real king of Babylon

445
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: before the City of Or declined in power in the

446
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: late sixth century b c. And was subsequently abandoned over

447
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: the following decades. Uh So, Nabonidas seemed to have a

448
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: great sense of historical consciousness. He wanted to revive elements

449
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: of past civilizations from Mesopotamia. One of the things we

450
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: were reading for this episode was an article by h

451
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: professor of languages and literature of Ancient Israel from Macquarie

452
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: University named Louise Prike, and one thing that she pointed

453
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: out is that this ancient king, Nabontas is often referred

454
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: to as sort of like an ancient archaeologist king. He

455
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: was sort of like, you know, one of the first archaeologists,

456
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: sort of an ancient Indiana Jones type. Here was word

457
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: of except he's a king, so he's got all this

458
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: power to command with the the belongs in a museum mentality.

459
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: Um so yeah. So so this ancient sort of archaeologist king,

460
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: apparently he conducted excavations to retrieve lost written records from

461
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: past civilizations of the area. Uh Later in life, he

462
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: attempted to restore the ruins of the Great Sumerian Ziggurat

463
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: of Or that had decayed significantly by his time. You

464
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: may have seen representation their pictures of the ziggurat. Uh.

465
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: And and what we're seeing is a restoration of Nabonidas's

466
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: restoration of the Ziggarat. So it's been through several it's

467
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: got a few different coats of paint on it, and

468
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 1: that alone, you know, brings up the question of, you know,

469
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: the authenticity with artifacts, you know, like like which one

470
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: is the real ziggurat? I mean they're all the real Zigarat.

471
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: But but uh, but but then you know, you know,

472
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: we have to take into account like how much time

473
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: has passed two and then when to what the extent

474
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: does that get in our way of understanding the past? Yeah, yeah,

475
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: it's a weird question to think about. If something was

476
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: restored in the ancient world after having decayed for hundreds

477
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: of years, is that just as original to us? Basically?

478
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, it's it's it makes you

479
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: question the concept of what an original artifact is, what

480
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: is archaeological authenticity? And maybe it's some degree, uh, to

481
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: some degree undermines the concept of originality, which might be

482
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: a good thing. We'll talk about that later again, um.

483
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, so he he attempted to restore the ruins

484
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: of the Great Sumerian zigguratador He and he was also

485
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: he was a religious revivalist, bringing back cult traditions that

486
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: had long fallen by the wayside. Specifically, he revived the

487
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: cult of the moon god Scene also known and that

488
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: spelled like sin like s i n is brown scene,

489
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: also known to the ancient Sumerians as the god Nana. Now,

490
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the city of Or has a lot of cool stuff

491
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: about it over over these you know, thousands of years,

492
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: but one of them is that it has some of

493
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: the most awesome high priestesses in history. I know she's

494
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: come up on stuff to blow your mind before, but

495
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: one of my favorite ancient Mesopotamian figures is the earliest

496
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: known named author of a work of poetry, so not

497
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: necessarily the first poet ever, but the first poet in

498
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: history whose name is recorded and known to us. And

499
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: this is the ancient Sumerian poet, Princess and high priestess

500
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: in Headuwana. Yeah, in Headuana lived in Or long before

501
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: in Abanitas. She lived in Or when it was an

502
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: ancient Sumerian city state in the twenty third century b.

503
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: C under the rule of her father Sargon of a

504
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: cod and in Hituana was appointed by Sargon. Is the

505
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: high priestess of the goddess in Anna and the moon

506
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: God Nana. I know that might be kind of confusing.

507
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: The goddesses in Anna and the Moon God is just Nana,

508
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: and then of course later became seen. So technically her

509
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: title is in e n which is a position of

510
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: religious and political significance. She refers to herself as the

511
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: radiant Inn of Nana. And one of her great works

512
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: of poetry known to us is known to us today

513
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: is the Exaltation of in Anna the Goddess, which is

514
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: this amazing poem to look up. You should especially look

515
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: up a translation translation of the Exaltation of Anna if

516
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: you're ever trying to like work up a real sense

517
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: of defiance and righteous anger. The best stuff, Uh, Robert,

518
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: would you indulge me to read a few lines certainly, okay,

519
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: from the Exaltation of Ananna. This is from the translation

520
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: in the James Pritcher edition in nineteen seventy five. You

521
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: have filled this land with venom like a dragon. Vegetation

522
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: ceases when you thunder like Ishkur. You bring down the

523
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: flood from the mountain Supreme One, Who are the Ananna

524
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: of heaven and Earth, who reign flaming fire over the land,

525
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: Who have been given the me by on Queen who

526
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: rides the beasts. Okay, I got a one from later,

527
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: my Queen. All the Anunna, the great gods fled before

528
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: you like fluttering bats, could not stand before your awesome face,

529
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: could not approach your awesome forehead. Who can soothe your

530
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: angry heart? These hymns are amazing and they are definitely

531
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: worth looking up. So you've got in head to Wana.

532
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: She's this fireball hurling poet, the high priestess of the

533
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: moon god Nana in Or in the twenty third century BC.

534
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: And then a little less than two millennial later, you've

535
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: got this Neo Babylonian king Nabontas ruling over Or, who's

536
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: looking back into the past. And in looking back into

537
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: the past, one thing he decides to do is revive

538
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: the worship of the moon god Nana, who they now

539
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: called Seen, and like Sargon, Nabanitas appoints his daughter the

540
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: priestess of the moon god, consulting ancient records to get

541
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: details about what this moon priestess role would be, like

542
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: what the duties would be, what the rituals would be. Uh,

543
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: this is a point that that Prike makes in her article.

544
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: Is this like looking back into the records for what

545
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: the priestess is role would be, because he's, you know,

546
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: in a way, he's sort of trying to be the

547
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: next Sargon. So who is the priestess, the daughter of

548
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: Nabonidus who gets this role? Well, her name is in

549
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: a galdy Nana, also known as Belle shalty Nana. And

550
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: unfortunately we know far too little about who in a

551
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: galdy Nana was, but we do know that, in addition

552
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: to a religious role, in a galdy Nana is recorded

553
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: as having been the administrator of a school for young priestesses.

554
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: But so in a Galdy Nana was more than just

555
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: an educator. She was more than just a princess, more

556
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: than just a high priestess of the moon. It's here

557
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: that we come to the first museum known to history,

558
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: because it appears that in a galdy Nana was its curator.

559
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: And this is this is fascinating to behold because we

560
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: have not only you know, you know, the case for

561
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: the museum, but for a strong fake case for you know,

562
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: why it was created, what purpose it served? Uh, the

563
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: ruler of the day, Yeah, exactly. So maybe we should

564
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: take a break and then when we come back we

565
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: can have a look at this museum. Alright, we're back.

566
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: We're discussing the history of the museum as we know

567
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: and understand it today, and we're looking at what may

568
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: well be the earliest example of something that we can

569
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: reasonably call a museum. Yeah, and so we should look

570
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: again at what would be the criteria there. Right, how

571
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: would we know if we had found the first museum

572
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: in history? Because, as we've discussed before, just having a

573
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: treasure room of artifacts isn't really a museum, right, Um, So,

574
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: a museum as understood today has two main parts. Right,

575
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: He's got preservation and interpretation. You've got objects or artifacts

576
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: that are preserved and kept on the display this preservation aspect,

577
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: and those objects are explained and contextualized by educational interpretation materials,

578
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, like the little written placards you find next

579
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: to objects at a museum exhibit today. And I think

580
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: it's also important that it must be clear that this

581
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: institution has some sort of public educational purpose. Right, it

582
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: can't just be like a private thing that's just for you, Right,

583
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: It's about it's about sharing this information with the world.

584
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: And we see that in our you know, our our

585
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: best examples of museums. You know, it's say, like a

586
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: really good science and technology museum is about you know,

587
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: sharing the passing on the torch of of of of

588
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: scientific inquiry and uh and and celebrating what it can

589
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: do for human civilization. And then on the other hand,

590
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: you have, say a creationist museum, which takes it a

591
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: different approach, but is ultimately trying to do the same thing. Right,

592
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: it is it is it is using artifacts are supposed artifacts.

593
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it's using actual uh, remnants of the past,

594
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: but then using it to push in a different narrative.

595
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: I guess that's true. Like even if we judge the

596
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: educational purpose of a museum to be misguided and leading

597
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: to incorrect conclusions, I mean, I guess thet'll if the

598
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: goal of it is educational according to the people who

599
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: made it. Even if that education is you know, maybe look,

600
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: make making your king look good or something, you could

601
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: consider that a form of a museum, right, I mean,

602
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: and certainly even our better museums have had to evolve

603
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: with the times and if I had to, had to

604
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: change the way that they present particularly you know, things

605
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: from a cultural but even a historical standpoint to to

606
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, to to either you know, keep up with

607
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: the changing norms, to correct past errors and then uh um,

608
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, and also to to take into account new

609
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: information about the cultures and the time periods that are presented. Well, yeah,

610
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I mean, one great thing about modern

611
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: museums is you know, they can often be away, uh

612
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 1: to see into other cultures that you might not encounter firsthand.

613
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: But you know, a lot of these exhibits, if the

614
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: museum has been around a long time, they may have

615
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: initially been established with a kind of condescending colonialist attitude

616
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: or that that sort of shows other cultures but in

617
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: a way that might not be accurate, maybe that looks

618
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: down on them, that doesn't regard them as you know,

619
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: equally valid cultures. Right. I mean, yeah, it's important to

620
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: note that, like the the basic idea of the museum, uh,

621
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, it can be skewed for different purposes. I mean,

622
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: there's a difference between the neuter museum in Philadelphia and

623
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: say a you know, a a circus side show, uh,

624
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, just like a display of preserved human remains

625
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: with either no context or faulty context regarding what those

626
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: jars contain. There's a difference between an actual museum about say,

627
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: human evolution and uh the Bigfoot Museum that we have

628
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: in the North Georgia Mountains, which is a wonderful museum,

629
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: but it has it has a definite agenda, definite narrative

630
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: that it's pushing, and hopefully a lot of people that

631
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: go there are you know, engaging with a sort of

632
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek or people were able to suspend disbelief,

633
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: you know and enjoy it. But but yeah, it's it's

634
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: a slightly different expert exercise or any you know, like

635
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: roadside attraction you know from decades past where where something

636
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: maybe on display that is uh you know that is

637
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: maybe uh you know, lacking in terms of it's you know,

638
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: scientific or historical believability. Right. So I guess I want

639
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: to trying to say is we can often think of

640
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: a museum as a medium as opposed to like message. Okay,

641
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: so to get back to in a Galdi Nana throughout

642
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties, there was a British archaeologist

643
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: named Sir Charles Leonard Woolley who worked on the excavation

644
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: of the ancient city of Ur And in nineteen five

645
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: Willy and his colleagues were excavating a Babylonian palace within

646
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: the ancient city, and they began to uncover a very

647
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: strange clustering of artifacts. Within this palace were artifacts from

648
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: different geographical locations and different periods of ancient history, all

649
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: neatly arranged together in this one building. And it appears

650
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: that this collection was created sometime around the year five

651
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: thirty b C. And now the earliest artifacts they found

652
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: went back almost to the time of Sargon, and in

653
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: Headuana they went back to about b c uh And again,

654
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: I was trying to find a point of comparison for

655
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: historical scale. So if these people living in the sixth

656
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: century b C had artifacts from b C, that's like

657
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: us today having artifacts from the personal effects of Attila

658
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: the Hunt who was invading the Western Roman Empire in

659
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: the middle of the fifth century CE. That's the the

660
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: approximate time difference. So what was among this collection of

661
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: things that Willie discovered here in this in this ancient site,

662
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: one thing was the partially restored remains of a statue

663
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: of the great king Shulgi of Or, who ruled in

664
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: the twenty one century b c. And you might remember

665
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: Shulgi came up in our episode about walls, actually because

666
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: Shulgi is credited with creating one of the first known

667
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: defensive boundary walls in history. The wall he built was

668
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: known as the Wall of the Land, or the Amorright Wall,

669
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: or the keeper at Bay of the Nomads. It's a

670
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: little on the nose, it was. It was designed to

671
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: defend Sumar against attacks from nomadic people's called the Amorites,

672
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,919
Speaker 1: who lived to the north of them. And Shulgi's wall

673
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: is thought to have been more than a hundred miles long,

674
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: stretching between the Tigris and the Euphrates river Uh. And

675
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: in this Uh this other episode, I quoted from an

676
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: ancient Sumerian poem which mentioned it by recalling with nostalgia,

677
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: how quote, the wall of Unag extended out over the

678
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: desert like a bird net, you know, comparing it to

679
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: this thing they used to actually catch birds. And so

680
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: in this poem, the speaker is lamenting. How you know,

681
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: there were better days back when their civilization had been

682
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: more powerful and more glorious, And it was the time

683
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: of Shulgi in this wall. But in reality, of course,

684
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: these walls did not accomplish the goal of protecting Sumir,

685
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: which fell to invasions from the Amorrds and the Elamites.

686
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: It was not an effective strategy and uh And in

687
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: his own autobiographical writings on the excavation of or Charles

688
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: Leonard Willey notes something interesting about the statue of Shulgi.

689
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: So he describes it quote as a fragment of dear

690
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: white statue, a bit of the arm of a human

691
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: figure on which was an inscription. And the fragment had

692
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: been carefully trimmed so as to make it look neat

693
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: and preserve the writing. So there appears to be evidence

694
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: here of an ancient preservation work to keep the carvings

695
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: on the statue from being damaged and to keep them legible.

696
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: Also among the things found here was an ancient Cassite

697
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: boundary stone, a type of artifact known as a kudaroo

698
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: now kudaru or stone boundary marker, is used in ancient

699
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: Mesopotamia and these things are pretty cool. It's kind of

700
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: like if you could have a stone pillar with a

701
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: written copy of the deed de your house noting how

702
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: you got the land and which notaries witnessed the sale

703
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: of the property, and also possibly containing carvings of gods,

704
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: celestial objects and monsters and definitely curses. It's going to

705
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: be full of curses. The kudaru in in a galdy

706
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 1: Nana's museum is from around four b C. And well,

707
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: he noted that it contained an awesome curse against anybody

708
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: who displaced or destroyed the stone. So what are these

709
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: curses like? Right? I was looking at an example of

710
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: a kudaru excavated from tell Abu Habba, So it's not

711
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: the same kudaru, but it's curse warning tells about what

712
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: you cannot do or else face the curse. So it says,

713
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: winsoever in days to come among future men, an agent

714
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: or a governor, or a ruler, or anyone or the

715
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: son of any one at all, who shall rise up

716
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: and in respect of that field, shall make a claim

717
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: or cause a claim to be made, or she'll say

718
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: this field was not presented, or she'll change that stone

719
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: from its place, or she'll cast it into the water

720
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: or into the fire, or shall break it with a stone,

721
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: or because of these curses shall fear, and she'll cause

722
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: a fool, or a deaf man, or a blind man

723
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: to take it up and set it in a place

724
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: where it cannot be seen. That man who shall take

725
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: away the field may Anu, the father of the gods

726
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: curse him as a foe. This covers so much. I'm

727
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: about to get into exactly what the curses in a second,

728
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: but I love this. It's like, Okay, you cannot erase

729
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: the record of who owns this field. You can't throw

730
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: it in the water, you can't throw it in the fire.

731
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: You can't get a blind person who can't read these

732
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: warnings to pick it up for you and do it

733
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: for you. Now, one one wonders if they were, say,

734
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: if this was simply you know, they were just thinking

735
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: of potential loopholes. This had been a loophole that was employed,

736
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: that there was, that there was a blind individual who

737
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: was often employed to you know, muck around with people's

738
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: property rights. Right, Okay, so here's what So what happens

739
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: if you violate this this boundary marker, you try to

740
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: move it or something. Here's a little bit of the

741
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: curse play. The first line has some illusions, so it's

742
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: it's Maya Dodd, the lord of the crops, do something.

743
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: It's been worn off. But after that it gets going.

744
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: May Nergal in his destruction not spare his offspring. May

745
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: shook A Muna and Shuemlia pronounce evil against him. May

746
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: all the gods whose names are mentioned on the stone

747
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: curse him with a curse that cannot be loosened. May

748
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: they command that he not live a single day. May

749
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: they not let him, nor his name, nor his seed

750
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: endure days of drought, years of famine. May they assign

751
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: for his lot before God, King, Lord, and Prince. May

752
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 1: his whining be continuous, and may he come to an

753
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: evil end. That's a pretty stiff curse. Yeah, okay, May

754
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: his whining be continuous. So to quote from Charles Leonard

755
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: Willy's own account of the other objects they discovered, apart

756
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: from these two we just explained quote, Then came a

757
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: clay foundation cone of a larsa king about seventeen hundred BC.

758
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: Then a few clay tablets of about the same date,

759
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: and a large votive stone mace head which was uninscribed,

760
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: but may well have been more ancient by five hundred years.

761
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: What were we to think? Here were half a dozen

762
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: diverse objects found lying on an unbroken brick pavement of

763
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: the sixth century BC. Yet the newest of them was

764
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: seven hundred years older than the pavement, and the earliest

765
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: perhaps sixteen hundred and so. Wooly writes that the evidence

766
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: made it pretty clear that it was impossible that all

767
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: these different artifacts would have ended up arranged together like

768
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: this by accident. And he he notes again the trimming

769
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 1: of the inscription on the Shulgi statue, which seems like

770
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: a deliberate act of preservation. And then finally came the

771
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: answer of what they were looking for. Wooly writes, quote,

772
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: then we found the key. A little way apart lay

773
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 1: a small drum shaped clay object, and which were four

774
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: columns of writing. The first three columns were in the

775
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 1: Old Sumerian language, and the contents of one at least

776
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: were familiar to us, for we had founded on bricks

777
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 1: of Boor Sin king of Or in two two two

778
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: zero BC, and the other two were fairly similar. The

779
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: fourth column was in late Semitic speech. These it said

780
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: our copies of bricks found in the remains of Or

781
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: the work of Boor Seen, King of Or, which while

782
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: searching for the ground plan of the temple of the

783
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: Governor of Or, found and I saw and wrote out

784
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: for the marvel of the beholders. And Willie notes that

785
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: the scribe who wrote this inscription overestimated the accuracy of

786
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: the copies of these bricks, but nevertheless Willy reckon as

787
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: the significance of this find quote. The room was a

788
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: museum of local antiquities maintained by the Princess Bell Shalty Nannar, which, remember,

789
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: is another name for Inegaldy nana Um, who took after

790
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: her father, a Keen archaeologist, And in the collection was

791
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: this clay drum, the earliest museum label known, drawn up

792
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: a hundred years before and kept presumably together with the

793
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: original bricks, as a record of the first scientific excavations

794
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: at Or. That's incredible, you know, to to just you know,

795
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: imagine these you know, truly ancient people. Uh, you know,

796
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: someone walking into this room seeing a curious old object

797
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: and then potentially reading an inscription to see what it

798
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: was and how it factors into their own history. Yeah. Yeah,

799
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Uh. And the fact I think it's interesting

800
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: that they've got they've got copies also notes about copies

801
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: of things, which would be like the way that many

802
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: museums today have not in a silly or an original artifact,

803
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: but a reproduction or say a cast of a fossil

804
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: that might be the original thing. Uh. Of course, you know.

805
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: The funny irony there is that many fossils are not

806
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: even the original bones the stone, geologic castings created there by,

807
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, without the aid of human intervention. Yeah. Um.

808
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: And and I think that's an interesting thing, you know

809
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: that we we feel like we need to make this distinction.

810
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: Of course, it's like, well, you could have the real

811
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: thing here, you can have a reproduction of it. And

812
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: and somehow there's this sense among many people, I think,

813
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: and I admit that I sometimes feel this. I probably shouldn't,

814
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: but I feel like the reproduction is like not as good.

815
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be better if the real original thing were there?

816
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: And I want to break myself of this thinking by

817
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: the end of the episode. Yeah, because I mean, because

818
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: I've found myself caught myself thinking a similar thing about

819
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: restored works before, you know, like if you see, um,

820
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, pictures of what, say, the Sistine Chapel looked

821
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: like before and after restoration. One might be tempted to say,

822
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: well it was it looked better before they restored it,

823
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: which is kind of a silly thing to to to

824
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: think or to say. Um, but we get kind of

825
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: attached to, like the sort of the historical wear and

826
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: tear on a thing. We get attracted to, you know,

827
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: to the ruins, and then we have at least mixed

828
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: feelings about restoration efforts. I mean, we've we've talked about before.

829
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: I believe I'm stuff to your mind about the Parthenon UM. Like,

830
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: the Parthenon is a great example of this because with

831
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: the original Parthenon you have various waves of destruction um

832
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: addition and then considered reconstruction and their voices on you know,

833
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: different sides. You know, should we were should restore the

834
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: actual Parthenon to its former glory? Uh oh? And then

835
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: if we do restore to a former glory, which former

836
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: glory you know? And then likewise we have the Parthenon

837
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: in Nashville, Tennessee, which is a restoration and a model

838
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: essentially a scale model of the Parthenon that you can

839
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: walk into and and look around owned. I think that's

840
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: the right model. I don't I don't think they need

841
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: to go messing around with the ruins of the Parthenon.

842
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: But I like the idea of just like building other

843
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: Parthenons elsewhere. Right. But then also there's just simply the

844
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: effort in preserving right, because also you don't want to

845
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: just say, you know, if you have, say the ruined

846
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: remains of some some old building that is important, you

847
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: also don't want it to continue to erode, or should

848
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: you be open for it to it continuing to erode?

849
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a tough question. Yeah, yeah, And

850
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: there's we were talking about this before we came in

851
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: on the episode. But you know, I think in a way,

852
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: there's almost kind of a a a tacit belief in

853
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: sympathetic magic that makes us like the idea of the

854
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: original artifact, whatever it was. We we like the idea that, like,

855
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, the actual artist touched this, or the actual

856
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: person in history wore this, and a reproduction feels less

857
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: powerful to us because we buy into some strange form

858
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: of some pathetic magic. Right, it just doesn't have that

859
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: magic spark if it wasn't the real thing from the

860
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: time that somebody actually touched. Yeah, like you want to

861
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: touch it. Sometimes you want to lick it and uh,

862
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to. But there's a reason that

863
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: you have a lot of the suited individuals standing around

864
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: ready to intervene if you start pointing a little too

865
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: close to a particular work of art or posing for yourselfie,

866
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 1: just a little bit too close to it. Um, because

867
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: we we do want to interact with it, you know,

868
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: we don't want to always we want to stand in

869
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: its presence, but yeah, we also kind of want to

870
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 1: actually physically make contact with it. Yeah. So concerning in

871
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: a Galdi Nanas museum, of course, as we know, you

872
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: know we've been talking about, this would not be the

873
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: only place where powerful people in the ancient world had

874
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: collected relics of days past. You know, many kings of

875
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: the ancient world would have understood old relics and artifacts

876
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: to be a sort of genre of treasure to collect

877
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: and display your wealth and power. But what makes these

878
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: artifacts in in a Galdy Nana's museum really seem like

879
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: exhibits in a museum is is what Woolly notes that

880
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: they were accompanied by carvings that bore interpretive data, explanations

881
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: of what you were looking at, and the fact that

882
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: it was associated with in a galdy Nana's school for

883
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: young priestesses. That sort of cements the idea that this

884
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: building was a museum that was likely created with an

885
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: educational purpose. The students could go in and look at

886
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: this stuff and read about what it was, yeah, and

887
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: say like, this is our history, this is our heritage.

888
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: Look at these objects and learn. Just another passage I

889
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: came across. So there's another book where Woolly discussed in

890
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: a galdy Nana's museum and commented quote that there should

891
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: be a collection is altogether in accordance with the antiquarian

892
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: piety of the age, and especially of the ruler Nebenidas,

893
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: who with whose daughter this building is probably to be associated.

894
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: So he's he's saying that in this age in ancient Mesopotamia,

895
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: that in the city of Ur, and this would go

896
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: along with everything we know about Nabanetas trying to restore

897
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: the ziggurats and doing archaeological excavations and all this, that

898
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: there was this spirit of nostalgia, you know that they

899
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: were sort of unusually obsessed with the past. For for

900
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: people of their time and place. And I wonder what

901
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: what triggers that, you know, what causes a civilization to

902
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: suddenly take intense interest in preserving and reconstructing the past

903
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: like Nabannitas and in a Galdy Nana. Well, I wonder

904
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: if a lot of it does come down to sort

905
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: of like in a spatial understanding of things and a

906
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: need to be you know, in the environment of the past,

907
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 1: you know, to fully comprehend it on an almost animal level. Yeah,

908
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean part of one thing I

909
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: think that's attempting historical interpretation is that we know that

910
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: the dynasty that created the museum wouldn't last Like as

911
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: I mentioned, So, this museum was created around the year

912
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: five thirty BC, and the city of Or went into

913
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: decline after the reign of Nebanitas and was abandoned almost completely,

914
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, sometime in the following decades or centuries. Uh.

915
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: This is probably because of local climate change where the

916
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: Euphrates River the bed shifted and moved farther away from

917
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: the city, and that combined with drought to basically turn

918
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: this once fertile power center into this abandoned desert ghost city.

919
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: And so it's tempting, I think for us to look

920
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 1: at that and say, oh, you know, this was the

921
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: end of a long civilization in this area. Maybe maybe

922
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: it's they sensed they were at the end, and this

923
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: is what made them, you know, so nostalgic for the

924
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: past and want to create this first museum like that

925
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: this was their greatest hits album, right. But I you know,

926
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if that really makes sense, because I

927
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: don't know if they thought they were living towards the

928
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: end of their dynasty, you know, that's right. I mean,

929
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: a museum doesn't. It's we can easily fall into the

930
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: line of thinking that a museum is a is a

931
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: place of dead things, things that you know, things that

932
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: have that are no longer around, that are important only historically.

933
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: But we have plenty of museums today that are about uh,

934
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, celebrating things that are alive, celebrating movements that

935
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: are still happening and and and are still unfinished. We

936
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,439
Speaker 1: have the works of art that you know, we talked

937
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: about this and such to blow blow your mind that

938
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: are that are have been left unfinished, either just through

939
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: the accident accidents of human life or intentionally to make

940
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: some statement about about the nature of human progress. Uh.

941
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: And so I think it's it's reasonable to think that

942
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: some of those elements would very much have been in

943
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: play in ancient times, you know, to to realize that,

944
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: Like I mean, because we talked about it being used

945
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: as an educational space, so it would have been you know,

946
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: not even it would have a have a it would

947
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: have had a spirit of of renewal to it. I

948
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: would imagine an educational place and a place of religious significance.

949
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 1: So it was part of a school. It was part

950
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: of in egaldingnan as school for priestesses. Um. So yeah,

951
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: it makes you wonder about the interplay of the religious

952
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: impulse also with the desire to preserve and display elements

953
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: of history. Yeah. All right, Well, on that note, we're

954
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: going to take a quick ad break, and when we

955
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: come back, we will discuss the legacy of the museum

956
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: and uh, and some of some current ideas about where

957
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: we stand in regards to the museum. Alright, we're back.

958
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: So one thing we sort of mentioned earlier is that,

959
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 1: you know, I love museums. I'm I'm a big fan

960
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: of you know, natural history museums and cultural history museums

961
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: and they can do a really wonderful thing um. But also,

962
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of drawbacks to museums,

963
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: especially some you know, how museums used to be. I

964
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: think a lot of museums are doing a lot of

965
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: work in recent years to try to like disentangle the

966
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: nature of their educational exhibits from say, you know, colonial

967
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 1: legacies and stuff like that, and to you know, do

968
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: do what needs to be done to honor say, you know,

969
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: living thriving cultures that there are artifacts rep resent. So

970
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: there are important questions to ask about what museums represent

971
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: today and how, you know, what role they play for

972
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 1: us culturally, and maybe how they could be made better. Yeah,

973
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: and a lot of it comes down to questions of ownership,

974
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: not only who owns a particular item. You know, does

975
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: this does this piece of this is painting belong to

976
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: a certain family or no, does it belong to this museum?

977
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: Now does it belong to the nation in which the

978
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: museum um his house? Like it goes beyond that, I

979
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: gets into considerations of like who owns the past and

980
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: who owns the story of the past. So we were

981
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: looking at an excellent Dan magazine essay on the subject

982
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: titled Who Really Owns the Past? By American archaeologist Michael

983
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: Press and um I recommend everyone check this out, but

984
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 1: some of the key points that Michael makes are really

985
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: worth thinking about. Here. It points out that are you know,

986
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: our current way of thinking about heritage began to take

987
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: shape in the nineteenth century, both in the West and

988
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. The Westerners were pretty quick to

989
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: disregard local emerging laws concerning artifacts, uh, you know, considering

990
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: them an attempt by local rulers to lord over the

991
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: dead and interfere with what they seemed to, you know,

992
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: to see as this sort of natural migration of artifacts

993
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: to Europe, this interpretation of uh you know, so on

994
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: one side, you know, the locals might be saying, well,

995
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: we need some laws in place to keep these artifacts

996
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: from wandering outside of our borders. And then the colonial

997
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 1: impulse was more, oh, no, these belonged to the world,

998
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,479
Speaker 1: where so this this is everybody's heritage. But the world

999
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: happens to be in London. The world's back in London,

1000
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: so we're going to take right back there. And also

1001
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: antique clause as we know them today. It really emerged

1002
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: out of the post War War two periods, so international

1003
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: agreements such as the nineteen fifty four Hay Convention in

1004
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy nineteen seventy two UNESCO conventions. Uh, it

1005
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: all placed a new emphasis on national sovereignty and on

1006
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: national heritage. But still the question remains who owns the

1007
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: artifacts of the past and who owns the story of

1008
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: the past, Because again, you can think of the museum

1009
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: as as as a medium for a story. You know,

1010
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: there's and we we often forget this when we really

1011
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: place a lot of trust and say, uh, the met

1012
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: or the Natural History Museum. You know, I think we

1013
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: generally trust these institutions for good reason, you know, to

1014
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: present the best interpretation of the the history or the science,

1015
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: or the or the the the artistry that is on display.

1016
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: And we see again various museums make an effort to

1017
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: change their displays to honor an evolving understanding of the past,

1018
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: or to honor living cultures they depict, etcetera. But Press

1019
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: points out that when nations and nation when nation states

1020
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: themselves own the artifacts own the past, they can use

1021
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 1: these treasures to push a nationalistic agenda. So Michael Press writes,

1022
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: quote government's increasingly looked to remains of the distant past

1023
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: to bolster national identities and a sense of greatness, or

1024
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: to marginalize this favored groups. Suddam Hussein used the ruins

1025
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: of Babylon to spread ideas of Iraq's greatness as well

1026
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: as his own, even portraying himself as a modern Nebuchadnezzer.

1027
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: China's leadership has used archaeology to project national greatness onto

1028
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: the distant, semi legendary past. Today, India's Prime Minister Narindramodi's

1029
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 1: Hindu nationalist government has worked to use archaeology to prove

1030
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: that modern Hindus can trace their descent from the earliest

1031
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: inhabitants of India. So you put this sort of thing

1032
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: in place, and you know, you, he says, you actually

1033
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: invite looting, You actually invite that damage because history is

1034
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: made to serve the engines of nationalism or you know,

1035
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: or what have you. You know, eluding becomes a potential

1036
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: act of resistance, and we've actually seen this, he points

1037
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: out an example. You know, one example would be the

1038
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: destruction of monuments in Syria and Iraq by Isis. And

1039
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: then on the other side of the equation, you know,

1040
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: the whole colonial movement was steeped in arguments that these

1041
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: were items of global heritage, and and this is used

1042
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: to times to justify removing artifacts from native lands. So

1043
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I like the idea that there are things

1044
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: that are, you know, the common heritage of humankind for history,

1045
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: But what does that actually mean in practice when you say, okay,

1046
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: in practice it's the common heritage of human kind, So

1047
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: that means will take it to somewhere in Europe or

1048
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: the United States? Right? I mean, because yes, when you

1049
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: when you look at the movements of culture, when you

1050
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: look at the even the early migrations of human beings,

1051
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: you can make a case to say, well, the artifacts

1052
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: of India are part of my culture as well. They're

1053
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: part of my heritage as well. But it's another thing

1054
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: to say that means that they need to be relocated

1055
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: to uh, to your city, you know, your country or

1056
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: that you know your nation has can lay a claim

1057
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: to it. But then again, as he points out in

1058
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: this article, you know it gets this is still a

1059
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: very complicated scenario you bring in, uh. You know the

1060
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: fact that you have, you know, in our day and age,

1061
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: you have people from various nations that have spread all

1062
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: over the world, and and so it's not always as

1063
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: simple as this cultural group stole this cultural group's belongings,

1064
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: though sometimes it is. Well, yeah, I mean it's weird

1065
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: because it's hard to say who owns the past. But

1066
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: then again, something definitely feels wrong about just say, a

1067
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: colonial power taking artifacts from one country and then taking

1068
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: them back to the home price. Absolutely. Another side of

1069
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: the city points out that I hadn't really thought about

1070
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: is that in some cases you have designated UNESCO World

1071
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: Heritage Sites that you know, these are sit places where

1072
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 1: the it is, you know, a place of very important

1073
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: historical significance that needs to be preserved, but then also

1074
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: ends up being a kind of thing people want to visit,

1075
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: and that can actually impact local communities, forcing the removal

1076
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: of people either to you know, to to allow the

1077
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: study of this location or to make a way for

1078
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: developments associated with the site's new historical significance. Yeah, and uh,

1079
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: and then then you throw you know, various other uh,

1080
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: political factors into the mix, and it gets even more complicated.

1081
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: It's out that in the case of Syria, multiple parties

1082
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: have used heritage as a weapon of war. Obviously, isis,

1083
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: but also it brings up Russia and even the United

1084
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: States using uh, you know, celebrations of of archaeological materials

1085
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: as being sort of part of the overall messaging associated

1086
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: with you know, whatever side of the political scenario the

1087
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: player happens to be on. He does drive home that

1088
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: it is it's messy, you know, when you have you know,

1089
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: all these different factors playing into the past and these

1090
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: artifacts of the past. But he points out that cultural

1091
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: heritage experts proposed several ideas for a better future of museums.

1092
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: So just to to run through them really quickly, the

1093
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: three main points are, Number one, give more control to

1094
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: local communities, not national interests, those sort of on the

1095
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: ground with people rather than with national governments. Right. The

1096
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: second one is to reduce the importance of the original,

1097
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: which we talked about a little earlier. Yeah, this, this

1098
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: one is a tricky one to to think about. And well,

1099
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons is that he points out that,

1100
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: you know, and there's this high Western priority placed on

1101
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: the original item, the original work of our the original carvings, etcetera.

1102
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 1: But he since we you know, we have long seen

1103
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: a different approach in Eastern cultures, which were more about

1104
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: just you know, preserving and recreating the thing itself, the

1105
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: work itself, like it was more about the message in

1106
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: the work. Um but it but it it is. You know.

1107
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: It's as someone who loves museums, you know, it is

1108
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: hard to get past that. Like it there is something

1109
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: really awesome about standing in the presence of the actual

1110
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: work or the you know, the actual um remains that

1111
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: have been transported here. Uh. But then when you take

1112
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: into account all these other factors we've been discussing, you

1113
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: do have to ask yourself, well, would it really make it,

1114
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, any less impressive if it was just a

1115
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: really fantastic recreation of a particular work or particular carving.

1116
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly when you get into sculptures, it's a

1117
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: it's a lot easy. I can easily see that being

1118
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 1: the case, Like do I really need the actual let's

1119
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: say it's, uh, you know, the statue of David Uh?

1120
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: Do I need that transport it over here to look at?

1121
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 1: Or what if it was just a perfect copy, I

1122
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: think I would be happy with that. And if I'm

1123
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: happy with that, wouldn't that apply to various other museum

1124
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: artifacts as well? Especially the context is really good, if

1125
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 1: the narrative is really good. Yeah, I mean, I think

1126
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: that is something that you know, people who are the

1127
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 1: audiences for museums should try to adapt themselves to to

1128
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: be more satisfied with high quality recreations and uh, you know,

1129
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: uh casts and you know, all kinds of things that

1130
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: don't necessarily involve having the physical original there. Yeah, especially

1131
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: now when you can have all this additional information, you

1132
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: can have pictures of the original, videos of the original,

1133
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 1: additional technological interactions with with media about the original piece,

1134
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: but then you also have this physical creation that you

1135
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 1: can enjoy as well. Yeah, exactly. The third point that

1136
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: he makes, though, is that that we should rethink the

1137
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: idea of heritage as property at all, that we should

1138
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 1: have something along the lines of open access heritage. Again

1139
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: in a very interesting but also potentially challenging way to

1140
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 1: think about it, Like it forces us to turn some

1141
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: of our experiences with museums on their head. But but

1142
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: I could I could see that working though, because certainly

1143
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: some of the trickier parts of all of this is

1144
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: just the treating heritage as something that is that is

1145
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: property and then their property rights tied up with it,

1146
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: and then say a museum just cannot return a particular

1147
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: artifact to the culture it came from because of some

1148
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: sort of a property issue. Oh, I hadn't even thought

1149
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: about that, but yes, I guess sometimes things are probably

1150
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: on loan to museums from people who supposedly own them,

1151
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: But like, why does that person own them? It might

1152
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: be because you know, somebody weigh down the line, stole

1153
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: it and then left to them or gave it to

1154
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, or they just acquired it. If not

1155
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 1: through like like outright and obvious um military or colonial treachery,

1156
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: then perhaps through you know, economic pressures that would not

1157
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: have been there had it not been for the colonial

1158
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: influence to begin with. Yeah, this is a difficult issue,

1159
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: definitely worth giving thought to, especially if you're a person

1160
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: who frequents museums. Yeah, and really we only will only

1161
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: scratch the surface here um on this issue, because they're

1162
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: also additional layers to consider with with the you know,

1163
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: archaeological artifacts, you know, such as what Lynn Mesco calls

1164
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: negative heritage. What do you do about an historical artifact

1165
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 1: that's tied up with you know, a lot of negative

1166
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: aspects of society. You know, maybe it's tied to say,

1167
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, racist ideologies or something. Um, what do you

1168
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: do with those artifacts? How do you treat them? I

1169
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: think one possible answer there is that you have you

1170
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: make sure that the context of the museum that is

1171
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: presenting them, you know, is taking all that into account.

1172
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 1: But anyway, as as as as Michael drives something like

1173
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: this is still another like complicated area when we we

1174
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: try to figure out exactly where the museum is headed

1175
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, alright, Well, on that note, we're

1176
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: gonna have a go ahead and close this one out.

1177
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: But obviously we'd love to hear from everybody we know

1178
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 1: you all have favorite museums you would like to uh

1179
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: mention to us. Perhaps we've been to them as well,

1180
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: or maybe you'll point out some new, smaller museum that

1181
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 1: we've never even heard of, and we'll be able to

1182
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: put that on our radar for our future travels. As always,

1183
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, the best thing

1184
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: you can do is rate and review us wherever you

1185
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 1: have the power to do so. Make sure you have

1186
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,919
Speaker 1: subscribed to Invention as well, and just tell your friends

1187
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: about it. If next time somebody is asking around, hey,

1188
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: what are some good podcast to listen to? Throw our

1189
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: name into the mix. Uh, you know, ultimately, it's that

1190
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: it's that word of mouth that really makes all the

1191
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: difference huge. Thanks as always to our excellent audio producers

1192
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: are here person and to our guest producer today, Maya Cole.

1193
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1194
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1195
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 1: topic for the future, to let us know about your

1196
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: favorite museum, or just to say hi, you can email

1197
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: us at contact at invention pot dot com. Invention is

1198
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart

1199
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1200
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.