1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: writing about true crime. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: compelling true crimes. 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries. 10 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens. 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, how are you? 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 3: I'm doing good? Another week is gone by? Can you 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 3: believe it? 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: I know, I'm always This is one of my favorite 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: times of the week is when we tape. It's always 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: such an uplift for me when sometimes I have to 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 2: do a lot of writing on really bad things. It's 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: always nice to talk to you. Even when we talk 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: about terrible things. Much of the time, you have a 22 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: smile on your face. 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: People might not believe that, but it's true. 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: It is true. You make me smile. How's that? 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: Thank you? So what are you drinking every once in 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: a while, I want to ask that. 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: Well, I've got a coffee bug here, and no, I'm 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: not trying to hide bourbon. I'm actually drinking hot coffee 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: and it is just not my thing. You know, normally 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 3: I'm doing the energy drinks, but I'm trying to clean 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: up my kind of detoxify if you will. And I thought, well, 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 3: I'll go natural with the coffee. It's a struggle right now. 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: So your answer to detoxifying is going for coffee. Okay, 34 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: this is a little bit better, I guess. 35 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: I guess. I don't know if it is or not, 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 3: but you know, it's what I'm doing. 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: So how long is this going to last? 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: A day before you go running back to kava or 39 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: something else. 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: No, I don't know if this is going to last 41 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 3: the episode. We'll see. 42 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: Well, I myself am also thrown off because I had 43 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: a pair of glasses, progressive glasses, which I've never had 44 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: before in my life. I had a pair and I 45 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: was super excited and I put them on. And you know, 46 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 2: progressives work where you see for mine, at least, I 47 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: don't know how everybody else is, but mine I see 48 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 2: close up on the bottom and then I see distance 49 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: on the top and it's perfect, except there's this one 50 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 2: spot where everything's blurry, and you, my friend, are at 51 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: that spot. So now I'm really crabby because now you're blurry, 52 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: and I have to put on my old glasses. And 53 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: I was going to show off these new glasses, and 54 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 2: now I've been thwarted by my terrible eyesight. 55 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I have eyeglasses, and they've always been progressives, 56 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: and those, for the most part, have always worked well 57 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: for me. Now I wear contacts, and I've got this 58 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 3: mono vision setup, so one eye is set up to 59 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: see distance and one eye is set up for close up. 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: But since I'm in front of the computer so much, 61 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: I set that to be at the thirty inches the 62 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: typical computer monitor level. So when I'm doing anything closer 63 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: than that, like looking at my phone, everything's blurry and 64 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: I can't really do anything with the contacts outside of 65 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 3: put glasses on with the contacts in order to look 66 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: at something up close, and then it kind of defeats 67 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: the purpose it does. 68 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: That's a tragedy. 69 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 3: It's just getting older. It's so frustrating. 70 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: It is, so you're slightly crabby from the coffee and 71 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: I am irritable from the glasses. So this should be 72 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: a hell of a fun episode. This will be interesting. 73 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like the you know, the UFC, let's 74 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: get ready to rumble type of intro. 75 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: Oh boy, and is this ever a case. It's very 76 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: open ended and controversial and fascinating to me. So let's 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: go ahead and jump right in. So we are in 78 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties Boston. I lived in Boston. I went to 79 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: Boston University undergrad. I loved Boston, and I was there 80 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: primarily for the history. I've probably mentioned that to you before. 81 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: Alexis jokes that every time I ask if you've been 82 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: to a location where we are now exploring, you always say, no, Yeah, 83 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: you've been to Boston. 84 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: I have to assume I. 85 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 3: Have never been to Boston, and it's not due to 86 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 3: a lack of trying. That is the one part of 87 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 3: the country I've never visited. I've never been to the Northeast, 88 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: you know, in Boston, of course, is one of those 89 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: historic cities that I'd love to go visit, and you know, 90 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 3: see the historic centers there as well. 91 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I love Boston. Boston University is a great school. 92 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: But I went to Boston because I love, you know, 93 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: the time period, the eighteenth century. I love the buildings, 94 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: I loved everything about the city, and it was a 95 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: wonderful experience being there. When we go back in time, 96 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about October first of nineteen thirty six, and 97 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: a lot of some times. I'll give you a long 98 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: runway getting into these stories. Here are the main players, 99 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: and takes me a while to reveal who is dead 100 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: and what the circumstances are. But we're gonna jump right 101 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: into this because it sounds like a nightmare for the 102 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 2: police investigating it. So let's talk about what's discovered. There 103 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: was a worker with the Works Progress Administration, which is 104 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 2: the WPA, and he was taking his lunch break and 105 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: again early October, he spots something bobbing in the nearby 106 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 2: Boston Harbor. And that's never a good sign, I'm assuming not. 107 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: If it's a body it is back to body, it's 108 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: a bad sign. Okay, he didn't know what it was, 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: but he could see that it was wrapped in what 110 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: looked to him like a burlap potato sack and some 111 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 2: green curtains. So he fishes this thing out of the water, 112 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: this thing that's bobbing in the Boston Harbor and he 113 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 2: unwraps it and he is of course completely shocked to 114 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,559 Speaker 2: find that it is a severed human leg. He calls 115 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 2: the police, the right decision, and the police locate a 116 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: second leg that is also wrapped in a similar burlap 117 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: sack in green curtains and floating in the harbor the 118 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: same afternoon. So you know, these two body parts have 119 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: been sort of spread apart, and these are two legs and. 120 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: Two separate packages. 121 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: We have done a story like this before, which was 122 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: set in England and Scotland, so this is already going 123 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: down a profiling road here. So you've got at least 124 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: two body parts so far that have been separately wrapped 125 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: up and distributed in the water. 126 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and do you have a sense or do you 127 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 3: know are these two separate legs you know you mentioned 128 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 3: that they're floating. Do you have an idea about whereing 129 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: the river? Is this up by the shore where they're 130 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: just kind of being held up by the bottom or 131 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 3: are they literally floating? Because that's informative. 132 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: To me, my notes say floating. 133 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: It looks like when we have the evidence photos they 134 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: show the shore. 135 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: So let me screen real quick on that. 136 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: It's surprising sometimes we have these stories where the drawings 137 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: are very informative because they're from the eighteen hundreds, and 138 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: then the pictures are not. I'm not sure how informative 139 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: the pictures in this case are going to be. So 140 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: this is where the dismembered body parts were discovered, very 141 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: rocky shore, right, and this is just in Boston. 142 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: Okay. This appears that if these body parts were disposed 143 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: of out in the water way, then they've washed up 144 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: on shore or at least still in the water but 145 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: probably being supported by the bottom. Because I was kind 146 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: of wondering, I've actually got a case with three bodies 147 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: that were dismembered and body parts, you know, distributed across 148 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: duffel bags and weighed down. The duffel bags had been 149 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: stabbed with a knife to try to prevent gases from 150 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: building up. And these things still floated, you know, just 151 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: due to the decomposition and the gases that form and 152 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 3: get trapped. 153 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 154 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: What I'm kind of curious about now is obviously we 155 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: have a body disposal. Part of it is dismemberment, but 156 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 3: also part of it is using the river, And do 157 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: I have somebody that is going out in the river 158 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: in a boat and then distributing the body parts across 159 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: a very broad area or are they going to a 160 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: bridge or are they just throwing these various body parts 161 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: off on the shore. So that's what I'm trying to 162 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: key in on right now. 163 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: Okay, this information is going to be less important once 164 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: they identify who the victim is, because we immediately will 165 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: have some suspects. It does take a long time to 166 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: find other body parts, and frankly, there are still body 167 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: parts missing. 168 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: You know, they never recover some of it. So this 169 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: seems just off the cuff, is a very effective way 170 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: to cover up a murder, just the way that this 171 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: person has chosen to do. But I guess we're going 172 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: to find out a little bit. 173 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: More then, right Well, from a body disposal standpoint and 174 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 3: covering up evidence on the body, it can be effective. 175 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: You know that water can be tough, but the type 176 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 3: of packaging material can provide information. But the person I 177 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: had to dismember this body and package it somewhere, and 178 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: this is a tough thing to do. It often is 179 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 3: a very messy thing. And so if the body can 180 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: be identified and the original crime scene is located, oftentimes 181 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: valuable evidence is found, so they're thinking, know, I need 182 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: to cut the body up and prevent the body from 183 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: being found. But if that goes awry, unless they're very 184 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: fastidious and cleanup oftentimes that's their undoing. Is at the 185 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 3: location of the dismemberment. 186 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: Well, we will have that information later on. So of 187 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: course we've got two legs and the police are steymiat 188 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: and they can't figure out who this person is. This 189 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: is what they can determine, and you can tell me 190 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: what you guess from this. They say that the victim 191 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 2: was a female. She was brunette, somewhere between twenty five 192 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: and forty years old, and she was short with a 193 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: small build. Okay, the brunette part and the twenty five 194 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: to forty year old part, is that really something. 195 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 3: You can do with just legs, So they are making 196 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: this type of determ nation just from the legs. Yep, 197 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: So the twenty five to forty I've seen this done 198 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: before where they were wrong. In fact, it was a 199 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty nine case Elaine Davis, and when she initially 200 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: washed up on shore and was missing her head, lower arms, 201 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: and lower legs, a radiologist determined that must be a 202 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 3: woman twenty five to thirty years old, and it turns 203 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: out she was a seventeen year old girl. And so 204 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 3: my suspicion is is that they're relying upon let's say, 205 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 3: you know, fusion of growth plates within the long bones 206 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 3: of the legs, the brunette. Possibly yeh, there had been 207 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: some lay color. And also right now, you haven't given 208 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 3: me any information in terms of where the dismemberment actually occurred. 209 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: Did this occur, you know, mid thigh, did this occur 210 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: up in the hip area? Is there a possibility that 211 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 3: maybe there's some pubic hair that's part of these remains? 212 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: You know? So it all depends on what is present. 213 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 3: But it is extrapolating a lot, it sounds like, and 214 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: just due to my experience, I would say that if 215 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: they were right in that twenty five to forty year range, 216 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: then it probably was just a lucky guess. 217 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: Okay, good to know now. 218 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: One thing, because I know we're always looking for some 219 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: sort of element that sets the person apart, a tattoo 220 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: or something that would distinguish the victim from someone else. 221 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: This woman had what's been described as incredibly dainty feet, 222 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: So foot sizes were much much smaller apparently back in 223 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, and this victim was a size three, 224 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: which I can't even really imagine. 225 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 3: Was that also for men during this era, that they 226 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: had smaller feet than what men generally. 227 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: Do now, you know, I don't know. 228 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 2: I think of it as people earlier in the sixteen hundred, 229 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds and earlier were shorter. 230 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 3: You know. 231 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: You can tell from the houses that we've recovered they 232 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: were just smaller. The doorways are shorter. So I don't 233 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: know if that's the same thing here. 234 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting, But so size three even back in 235 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: the day, or are they saying that this was a 236 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 3: unique feature. 237 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 2: Yes, and this is what the medical examiner said. He 238 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: described her feet as beautiful. He said, the feet are 239 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: perfect inappropriate. 240 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: I mean, come on, does see you have a foot fetish? 241 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that they were unusual, and the 242 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: police were trying to gain attention to have her identified. 243 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: Potentially it is a weird thing to put out, but 244 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: I guess if the only thing you have available are 245 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 2: two legs and two feet, you're looking for anything that 246 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: would distinguish her from other people. 247 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: Once the media gets a hold of this story, I. 248 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: Mean this is the nineteen thirties, you know, because I 249 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: was thinking oftentimes, when somebody has been involved in hard labor, 250 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: I mean that has an influence on their body, whether 251 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 3: it be on the outer surfaces of their body or 252 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: as well as on the skeletal aspects of their body. 253 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: So I anthropologist will say, hey, this person looks like 254 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: they were involved in a type of labor that really 255 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: stressed the lower legs or whatever else. Or remember reading 256 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: about some of the modifications to fingerbones for women that 257 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: were heavily involved with sowing. You know, a seamstresses. You know, 258 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: your occupation does have an influence. Yeah, and so for 259 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: the pathologists to be saying these are pretty feet, that 260 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: must again be something that may have been unusual for 261 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: what he normally saw. 262 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: Well. 263 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: One of the things also that investigators are saying is 264 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: that she had died likely between two and three weeks earlier. 265 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: She was found October first. That meant that she was 266 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: likely killed in mid September. Could they really determine that 267 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: two legs? Could they figure out from two legs that 268 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: this was a two to three week old murder? 269 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: So when I hear that, you know, this body has 270 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: been dead for let's say three weeks and make a 271 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: presumption that these legs have been floating in this water 272 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: with all the bacteria, and who knows if marine organisms 273 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 3: had access to the flesh, but just sitting in that water, 274 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: the skin and the soft tissue is really after three weeks, 275 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: it's not pretty. Yeah, you know, And that's where now 276 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 3: for the pathologists to be saying how pretty these feet looked. 277 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 3: Now I start wondering, well, are these legs? Were they 278 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: well preserved? And what she really floating? Were these legs 279 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: really in the water for three weeks or maybe she 280 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: had been killed and then dismembered after a period of 281 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: time then put in the water. 282 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 283 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: I think those are all things that there's speculation about 284 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: within the investigators. I think that now that the media 285 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: has gotten a hold of this case, there's a ton 286 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: of publicity. They are jumping, not surprisingly into early profiling 287 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: who is this person? 288 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: And this is going to sound very familiar to you. 289 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: They make some early determinations because both legs appear to 290 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: be cleanly cut, and the police interpret that to mean 291 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: that whoever dismembered this body had some sort of training 292 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: I know, as a surgeon or a butcher. 293 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: With the old. 294 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: Surgeon or a butcher argument, which you've debunked a lot. Yeah, 295 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: so let's just go through it again. This does not 296 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: make any sense to you, right. 297 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: No, it doesn't. I think to conclude that the dismemberment 298 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: must have been done by somebody with medical training, there 299 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: would have to be such a unique aspect to how 300 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 3: that dismemberment occurred that showed really deep anatomic knowledge, you know. 301 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, you know, of course, butchers are very 302 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: well versed at dressing down animals, and it's no different 303 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: to dressing down a human body and dismembering a body. 304 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 3: Many hunters are very well versed at doing that, you know. 305 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 3: Somebody who works in the field, such as myself. I've 306 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: never dismembered a body, you know, I've dissected animals in 307 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 3: biology classes. But I have anatomic knowledge, you know, so 308 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: if I were to dispose of a body, I probably 309 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 3: could do it in a way that somebody would assume, oh, 310 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 3: he must have gone to medical school. But also think 311 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: about some of these killers. I'm not saying this is 312 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 3: the type of killer in this case, but somebody like 313 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: a Jeffrey Dahmer, who you know, part of the serial 314 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: killer triad is you know, the killing of animals, and 315 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 3: you know Dahmer was somebody that was dismembering these animals 316 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 3: that he killed. He learned how to dismember bodies doing that, right. 317 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: So this is where oftentimes with these old cases and 318 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: maybe even current cases, where pathologists or investigators say, oh, 319 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 3: this is looking like a really clean dismemberment, must be 320 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: medically trained. I think that's very narrow minded in terms 321 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 3: of the real world and the types of people that 322 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 3: are out there that do possess the skill sets or 323 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: the aptitude to figure things out to make this dismemberment 324 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 3: look as good as it does. 325 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: And we've talked about making these sorts of assumptions, especially 326 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: when you're involving profiling. Making assumptions can really lead you 327 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: off track and can delay the investigation and point you 328 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: in the wrong direction. And I mean this would be 329 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: coincidence simply if our suspect defender turns into someone who 330 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: was a surgeon or a butcher or a hunter or 331 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: anything like that. 332 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: And many investigators today, you know, when they hear this 333 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: type of detail come out of let's say a profile, 334 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: they generally will just table that information and not limit 335 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: their investigation to oh, I better start getting you know, 336 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: student rosters from the local medical school. You know, most 337 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 3: good investigators realize, you know, this is just something that 338 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 3: if I run across somebody, maybe I'll bring that detail 339 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: up in my head and kind of assess this potential 340 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 3: suspect against the information that the profiler is providing. 341 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you the description of this woman in 342 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: her feet turned this story into chaos with all newspapers 343 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: they wanted the story, and in fact, in nineteen fifty three, 344 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: there was a newspaper article called the Model Murder Case. 345 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: And what was interesting about this is. 346 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 2: The description that I think is the perfect description for 347 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: or this story that explains why people were so fascinated 348 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 2: Because it was framed like this. They called it a 349 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: Cinderella search with a difference the Boston police in the 350 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: role of Prince Charming. The newspapers helped, however, and beautiful 351 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: legs and tiny feet added glamour to the sordid story. 352 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: I mean, if you think newspapers and hour gross, you 353 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 2: should read some of the ones from the nineteen fifties 354 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: that I have to read. And that is a pretty 355 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: good description of why people were so interested in this case. 356 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I've seen some of these, you know, 357 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 3: the coverage that newspapers would have on these homicide cases 358 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 3: where they do almost glamorize the crime itself. And I think, 359 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: right off the top of my head, a perfect example 360 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: is black Dahlia. Yeah, you know, Elizabeth smart and obviously 361 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 3: a very attractive woman, and then it becomes more focused 362 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 3: on that aspect than the atrocity of the crime and 363 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 3: what was done to her. One of the things that 364 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 3: is appropriate, the appropriate use of the media is getting 365 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: the information out to the public in case somebody recognizes 366 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 3: these characteristics, and it's just a matter is it done 367 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: in an appropriate way. 368 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: So let's talk about who this person was. 369 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: Not long after this story broke in the newspapers, there 370 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: was a woman named Isabelle Murphy. She lived in Austin, Massachusetts, 371 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: and began connecting the dots when she read about the 372 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: dainty feet. The dainty feat is what glued her in 373 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: because she had a friend whose name was Grace, Askeduth 374 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: and she had not spoken to Grace for a few weeks, 375 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 2: and Grace had beautiful, dainty feet, and in fact, she 376 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: was a foot model at one point. Oh and Isabelle 377 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: is alarmed because she's got this friend she hasn't spoken to. 378 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: This friend has beautiful, dainty feet also, and she's trying 379 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 2: to get a hold of the friend's boyfriend, whose name 380 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: was John Lyons. Isabelle couldn't get in touch with Grace, 381 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: and she couldn't get in touch with John, and this 382 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: was really unusual, and so she becomes very alarmed, and 383 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: in early October she contacts the police because she said, 384 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: this is too much of a coincidence. We rely on 385 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: these people to help us, right, that's exactly what you said. 386 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: The media puts the description out, and you have someone 387 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: who says, wait, I think I know this person. 388 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: I would imagine that law enforcement probably had received multiple tips, 389 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 3: because this sounds like it's a fairly high profile case, 390 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: so they're having to sort through a lot of information. 391 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 3: And then now Isabelle's tip comes in. 392 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't seem very strong. 393 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: You know your friend, you haven't talked to her in 394 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks, So what maybe she just went 395 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: on a trip and didn't tell you. A lot of 396 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: women in this time period had small feet, And how 397 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: do you define beautiful feet? I don't know, so I 398 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: think that Isabella at first went to the bottom of 399 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: the list for the police, because you're right, they were 400 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: digging through a lot of leads. So I will tell 401 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: you that Grace is the victim, and I want to 402 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: talk about Grace first and then we'll talk about what happened. 403 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: So they said, based on her legs twenty five to forty, 404 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: Grace was forty one years old. This is the coincidence 405 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: you were talking about, yeap, dumb luck. 406 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 3: And typically with you know, anthropological assessments, it is a 407 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: fairly broad age range. You know, unless they have aspects 408 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 3: of the skeletons such as the skull and the teeth 409 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: where they know, you know, within a few years one 410 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 3: way or another, that these certain features change during growth. 411 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 3: Once the skeleton gets to a certain age, then that 412 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: age range based on these skeletal characteristics usually is several 413 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 3: decades wide. 414 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were pretty close here. 415 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: I meant to ask you back when we were really 416 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 2: talking about the bobbing in the water, would the burlap 417 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: sacks and the green curtains help preserve the legs at 418 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: all or at some point are they so soaked that 419 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter that it's going to deteriorate at the 420 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 2: same rate. 421 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 3: Anyway. Well, nothing about that packaging suggests that it's water tight, 422 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: So I'm sure that these you know, these legs were 423 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 3: exposed to the water. The packaging likely would prevent predation 424 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 3: on the legs, you know, even though they're in the 425 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,239 Speaker 3: water prior to being disposed of in the water, you know, 426 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 3: you still could get insect activity going on there. You 427 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: have marine organisms that will start to form on the 428 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 3: remains or start to consume the remains. You also have 429 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 3: birds most early. This packaging sounds like it probably prevented 430 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: a lot of that type of activity, but you still 431 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: have the water exposure. You still have the bacteria in 432 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 3: the water. That's going to be a problem. You have 433 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: the bacteria from the flesh and the legs and all that. 434 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 3: So decomposition is going to occur, and it's probably going 435 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: to occur at a fairly rapid rate. I would expect though, 436 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 3: that that cool temperature of the water is going to 437 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 3: be the number one factor for preservation in this case. 438 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 2: Let me tell you a little bit more about Grace 439 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 2: are a victim forty one. Like I said, she lived 440 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 2: in a lakeside cottage in Weymouth, Massachusetts, which is a 441 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: suburb of Boston, Lovely suburb of Boston that's about fifteen 442 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: miles south of the city. I mentioned before she was 443 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: a foot model. Her father had managed a shoe factory, 444 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: and through his business connections, because of the unique size 445 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: and the beauty of her feet, she began dabbling in 446 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: foot modeling at a young age. She married a man 447 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: named Godfrey Asquith, and he owned a dairy farm in Newton, Massachusetts. 448 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: He died in the twenties and he left Grace everything, 449 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 2: which was a lot of property and a trust fund 450 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: that today would equal about a million dollars. So she 451 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: was doing well in this time. She didn't have a job, 452 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: she didn't have any children. She was just a socialite, 453 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: you know, literally moving from friend to friend and building relationships. 454 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 3: And Isabelle mentioned that Grace had a boyfriend named John, Yes, 455 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: who is also missing, right, he. 456 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: Is also missing. 457 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: And you know, John obviously benefits he's at the cottage 458 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: a lot. He benefits from Grace's money too. But she 459 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: as a person, people described her as a joy to 460 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: be around. She loved dancing, She seemed to have a 461 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: good relationship with John, and she just seemed like she 462 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 2: was loving life. So the police when hearing this description 463 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: from Isabelle, when they were asking more information, they just 464 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: did not seem to think that this was the person 465 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: who would end up with two dismembered legs in the 466 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: Boston Harbor. She was not an at risk victim, and 467 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: that I assume tallies with what you would think just 468 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: on the office. Forget about the boyfriend being missing, just 469 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 2: a description of her life, right. 470 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 3: Well, the phrase I always use victimology is huge. Yeah, 471 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 3: Grace is, at least on the surface, living a life 472 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: that is not putting her at an elevated risk becoming 473 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 3: a victim of such a crime. Now, the one thing 474 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 3: that you have mentioned that elevates her risk is her 475 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 3: financial status. 476 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, she has. I have a photo of a cottage, 477 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: the cottage that I can show you. It's just the 478 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 1: exterior of the cottage. But she does not seem to 479 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: be living a particularly lavish lifestyle. But I think you 480 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: would have to know that she has all of this money. 481 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: I'll show you just the outside of the cottage. There's 482 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: the outside. I mean, I know that's not very much 483 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: information to work with, but it looks like as a 484 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: partial paint job, on the outside. 485 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 2: I mean, this is not She's not living in some 486 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: mansion or anything. She seems to be living a quiet 487 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: life but still having fun and being social. 488 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: She's forty one, She's got a life to live. 489 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: Even though it's a very limited area of the cost, 490 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: this just looks like very average construction. The law enforcement 491 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: officer is standing on very routine wooden steps leading up 492 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 3: to a door, you know, wood siding. It is not 493 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: looking like it's a luxury home at all. 494 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: I would think that if this is the crime scene, 495 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: the focus is not going to be on a robbery, 496 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: at least not a robbery of someone who's just sort 497 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: of casing the joint and thinking they're going to get 498 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: a lot of money out of this. 499 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: It's a very unassuming exterior to me. 500 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 3: And I agree with that. 501 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: So Isabelle Murphy is persistent. 502 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: The police say, I don't think this is our victim, 503 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: but she says, you need to go. At least the 504 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: least you could do is go check out the cottage 505 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: that she has. So the police eventually make their way 506 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: over to Grace's cottage, and when they step inside, it 507 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: becomes very clear that Grace was the victim of extreme violence. 508 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: So here's the scene, Paul. There's blood all over the house. 509 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: It's on the walls, it's on the there's signs that 510 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: blood has been dumped down various strains, the kitchen, in 511 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: the bathroom, and in the bathroom they even found a 512 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: bloody footprint, not a shoeprint, but a footprint. So the footprint. 513 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: If you're choosing between a footprint and a shoeprint for evidence, 514 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: what are you preferring the footprint because it's potentially more accurate. 515 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 3: You know, it really depends on the quality of the print. 516 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: With footprints. If this is a bare foot, well you 517 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: have ridge detail on the bottom of your feet, and 518 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: that ridge detail has the same type of rarity in 519 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: terms of the characteristics that are on your fingers, on 520 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 3: your palms. So even though we don't have databases of 521 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 3: foot print ridge patterns, you can still do a comparison, 522 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: let's say, toeprints from the footprint at the scene to 523 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 3: let's say suspects toes mm hmm, just like you can 524 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 3: with fingers and say, yes, this person has the same 525 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: you know, class characteristic, same individualizing detail. And you know, 526 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 3: we've talked in terms about well, how you know is 527 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 3: this truly an identification. We're not going to go down 528 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: that rabbit hole. But if you find somebody that has, you, 529 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: let's say, a big toe, rich pattern on his big toe, 530 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 3: that's matching rich pattern in the victim's blood at the scene, 531 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 3: that's damning evidence. That's very strong evidence in my mind. 532 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: Well, let's see if it becomes helpful to police later on. 533 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: So there's blood everywhere except in the kitchen. The kitchen 534 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: scene is bizarre. There's a table and it's set up 535 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: with three people. There's a bottle of whiskey, and there's 536 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: used glasses nearby, and there was a partially cooked corned 537 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: beef sitting on the stove and the stove had been 538 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 2: turned off. There's also a butcher's saw and a cleaver 539 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: in the kitchen, both of which appeared to have been cleaned. 540 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: What is your impression of all of this? First of all, 541 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure how they would know that the 542 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: butcher saw and a cleaver had been cleaned. How would 543 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: you know that it had been dirtied to begin with? 544 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, unless they were seeing these items. They have little 545 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: nooks and crannies that blood can, you know, kind of 546 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: stay in. But the large surfaces are readily cleaned, so 547 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: if they're observing, oh, it looks like there's blood in 548 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 3: these nooks and crannies, there must have been a lot 549 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 3: more blood on the other surfaces. So the offender took 550 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 3: the time to clean these weapons. It's interesting to me 551 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 3: that the offender took time to clean the weapons yet 552 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 3: is not attempting to clean up the house. Yeah, what, 553 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 3: I'm assessing a crime scene. Anytime I see contradiction, that's 554 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 3: when I step back and I don't know why there's 555 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: this contradiction, but I have to kind of really go, Okay, 556 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 3: there's something going on with this offender that's a little 557 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 3: bit off. Did he start a clean up process with 558 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 3: the weapons that he used to dismember Grace and then 559 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 3: realized there's just no way I'm going to be able 560 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 3: to clean up this house and just ran away. Did 561 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: something scare him off? So don't know at this point, 562 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 3: but it's something that I'm paying attention to because of 563 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: this contradiction. 564 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: It's interesting that the kitchen is clean, and it looks 565 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: like there has been some sort of get together hosted 566 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: at this table. So you've got some whiskey glasses, you've 567 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: got a setting. It looks like they're going to sit 568 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: down and have dinner and it's been interrupted. But there's 569 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: blood everywhere else but in the kitchen. So what are 570 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: the scenarios here? There's an argument and it's taken into 571 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: another room and that's where the primary killing is, or 572 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: what else would it be. 573 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: I think there's a multitude of possibilities. Let's presume that 574 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 3: Grace is the one that is cooking and she's in 575 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 3: the kitchen, and you have the offender whoever that is. 576 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: The offender is in another area of the house and 577 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 3: is basically lying in wait until Grace, you know, moves 578 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 3: into that area of the house, or the offender is 579 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 3: the guest for the dinner that night, goes further into 580 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: the house and then calls Grace away where he basically 581 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: ambushes her in a different area of the house, and 582 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 3: then the homicide occurs where we see all the blood 583 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 3: and he's the only one that moves back into the 584 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 3: kitchen in order to clean the weaponry. Most certainly the 585 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: scenario that you brought up. Do you have Grace and 586 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 3: a visitor a boyfriend that are getting ready to sit 587 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 3: down and an argument occurs, and then that argument when 588 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 3: the I'm presuming the offenders a man. When Grace realizes 589 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: that this is going a bad way, she runs out 590 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: of the kitchen. He follows her, and then the violence occurs, 591 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 3: and now he's got a dead Grace and he has 592 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: to dispose of her body and starts the dismemberment process. 593 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 3: I think these are just some of the possible scenarios. 594 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: Part of assessing a crime scene, and you did a 595 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: good job with this is assessing normal living aspects in 596 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: the scene. It's one thing to say, yeah, you know, 597 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: whiskey's out, is there a guess? But the fact that 598 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 3: you have this. You said it was a roast. 599 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: Right, corned beef sitting on the stove. 600 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: Okay, and I'm assuming this corn beef is fully cooked. 601 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: It says partially cooked. 602 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 3: Oh, partially cooked. You know. So again, there's a multitude 603 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 3: of possibilities. One possibility is is that you know dinner 604 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 3: was being prepared, there was a guest over, and the 605 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 3: violence occurred before this meat had been fully cooked. And 606 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 3: then the offender, after killing Grace, took this out of 607 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 3: the oven to prevent it from Maybe what kind of oven. 608 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: Is it's a stove? 609 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: What I would guess is this, this whole thing happens, 610 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: and he pauses long enough number one to try to 611 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: clean the weapons, and then number two to turn off 612 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: the stove so that nothing catches on fire. Sure, so 613 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: he's doing some stuff, but then you're right, there's blood everywhere, 614 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: and at some point he must just say, boy, I 615 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: can't do. 616 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: This, I've got to go. 617 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 3: But also think about the possibility that he kills Grace 618 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 3: and then starts cooking a meal for himself afterwards. I 619 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 3: know you laugh, but it's a possibility. 620 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: Really, Okay, okay. 621 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: Dismembering the body isn't going to be a very fast thing. 622 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 3: Maybe he's in this house for a period of time 623 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: after Grace is dead, you know, and he's now just 624 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 3: taken advantage of what's present inside the house before he 625 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 3: goes out with her body parts. 626 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: And he's hungry. 627 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: So, yes, I could see that One of the things 628 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: we should talk about is motive. You haven't asked me 629 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: this yet. You always ask the same question. I always 630 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: wait to hear you say it was anything? Can you 631 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: finish my sentence? Was anything? 632 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 3: Well? You know this is where yes, was anything taken? 633 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: There? You go? 634 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 3: Was there anything disturbed in the house? That the house 635 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 3: looked like it had been rifled through, So I'm assuming 636 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: you're going to provide some form of that information. 637 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: Yes, nothing, nothing was taken, and this woman had inside 638 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: the house. The outside looked very modest, but inside the 639 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 2: house she had jewelry, she had furs, she had all 640 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: kinds of stuf. Nothing taken, not money, nothing. They were 641 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: able to account for everything. 642 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 3: Okay, did it look like the house had been broken into? 643 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: Was a house locked when law enforcement arrived. 644 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: We'll learn a little bit more about this later. But 645 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: the house was airtight. She had just had locks, new 646 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 2: locks put on the door, and I think like a 647 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: bar to block the door. Somebody would have had to 648 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: have been let in for this to have happened. It 649 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: seems like no signs of a break in or anything 650 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: like that. Okay, we have another discovery, which is incredibly sad. 651 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: On October twenty third, so this is three weeks after 652 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: the legs were first discovered. There's another discovery in Boston Harbor, 653 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: and this is a woman's head, and poor Isabelle Murphy 654 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 2: has to identify it. So three weeks and they're guessing 655 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 2: that she had been killed in mid September. So you're 656 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 2: talking about more than a month of this head floating 657 00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 2: in another potato sack. 658 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. 659 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: Could you really identify a head in a sack that's 660 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: been in the water for more than a month. 661 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: It would be tough. Yeah, you know, there may be aspects, 662 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 3: there could be her facial features, her hair, but this 663 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 3: would not be a pretty sight. Well. 664 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And one thing also, if I want to go 665 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: back to contents in the house, there were potato sacks 666 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: in the house that matched the potato sack that Grace's 667 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: legs and her head subsequently had been wrapped in. These 668 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: were common, it seems like, and it seems like it 669 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: was something that a handyman might use to load up 670 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: firewood or really anything to bring in and out. But 671 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 2: they were able to say that the sacks inside the 672 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: house that they found were consistent with the sacks used 673 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: for disposing her body parts. 674 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: It's clear this is who this is. But just for 675 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: I have a. 676 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 2: Question about this little fact coming up, Just for some 677 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 2: added certainty, Grace's dentist inspected the woman's teeth, the head's teeth, 678 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: and confirmed that the dental work was consistent with his patients. 679 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 2: Would that be it had to have been X rays, right, 680 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: and is that a certain science in court? 681 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, even to this day, a person's dental characteristics, 682 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 3: both just their teeth as well as whatever work has 683 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 3: been done on their teeth is something that is still 684 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 3: charted and is used. However, you know, with the advances 685 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 3: in DNA technology, you know, identification is typically done with 686 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: DNA if we can't use you know, fingerprints, but the 687 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 3: dental aspects are still recorded, you know. Again, it's something 688 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 3: that the dentist or the odentologists can opine and say, yes, 689 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 3: the skulls, teeth as well as the dental work is 690 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: entirely consistent with the medical records, and so I can't 691 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 3: eliminate the possibility. And typically with other circumstances it would 692 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 3: be this is a strong indicator that this is the 693 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 3: person in the nineteen thirties. With X rays, I'm not 694 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 3: sure that there would have been a lot of X 695 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 3: rays of dental work that you know, during life that 696 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: they could have used to compare to X rays of 697 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 3: this skull. 698 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 2: That must have been it though, I mean, I can't 699 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 2: think of any other way where he would have been 700 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: able to confirm an identity based on the teeth that 701 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 2: were found with this head anyway, they say, this is certain, 702 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: this is Grace, And I think we're certain too, this 703 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: is Grace. 704 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 3: Well sure, you know, because what he's most likely looking 705 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 3: at is he's looking at, you know, dental records saying, oh, 706 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 3: she has a filling, or she has fillings in these 707 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 3: certain molars on the top, on the bottom, she had 708 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: a crown here. Everything within the remains is consistent. If 709 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 3: you have the more of those types of characteristics, the 710 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 3: stronger the association. 711 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: So we have a confirmed victim. 712 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 2: We have Grace asked with as our victim, forty one 713 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: year old, and the police are now looking at her 714 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 2: inner circle and then they're going to move outward and 715 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 2: the inner circle. The most important person right now is 716 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: John Lyons. So let me describe John Lyons before we 717 00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 2: talk about him. 718 00:37:59,200 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: A little bit. 719 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 2: The police ask the friends, including Isabelle, tell me about 720 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 2: John Lyons. He doesn't have a criminal record. He has 721 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 2: a pretty good reputation just as a person. Isabelle says, 722 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 2: he was really nice. He was disabled in the war 723 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: and this would be World War One. He was disabled 724 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: in the war and got compensation, so he has his 725 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 2: own money. Doesn't mean that he doesn't enjoy Grace's money, 726 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: but he does have his own money. 727 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to be a gold digger. 728 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 2: They had been together for several years and Grace never 729 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: said anything negative about him. It seems like they had 730 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: a really nice relationship. So forget the fact that for 731 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: right now police can't find him. This doesn't seem to 732 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 2: have any red flags. Except the red flag is this 733 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: is the person who was closest to her and the 734 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: most likely suspect I'm assuming just because this is her boyfriend. 735 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 3: Well, John definitely has to be talked to, even though 736 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 3: he doesn't have any red flags on record. You know, 737 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 3: there are these you know moments, you know, in the 738 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 3: heat of the moment type crimes that can occur, you know, 739 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 3: without any indicators that the person is capable of that violence. 740 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 3: So this is something to where it's like, okay, so 741 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 3: John Lyons, I need to go talk to John Lyons. 742 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 3: When did he last see Grace and then start assessing 743 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 3: him as a potential suspect. 744 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 2: John's landlady seems to be one of the last people 745 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: to have seen him, and she said that he had 746 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: been missing since September nineteenth, which is about ten days 747 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 2: before the body parts were found. If we believe the 748 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 2: police and how they've dated when this murder happened, it 749 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 2: was around this time period. So the landlady is very 750 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 2: concerned because he hasn't even stopped by to pick up 751 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: his pension check. So police are posting a five hundred 752 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 2: dollars reward for information that leads to his location. They've 753 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 2: sent radio notices out, They've distributed circulars. This is an 754 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 2: all points bulletin everywhere including Europe, which have photo of 755 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 2: John and copies of his fingerprints. 756 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: They are on alert. He is in the wind. 757 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 2: He is either a suspect, an offender, or a victim, right. 758 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 3: You know, and assessing the victim. This is where going 759 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 3: back to the crime scene, I would be looking for 760 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 3: evidence that I had two bodies that had been dismembered 761 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 3: in that house or killed inside that house. Am I 762 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 3: seeing evidence of that? Now? You could also have a 763 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 3: situation to where John was removed from the house by 764 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,919 Speaker 3: an offender and then killed elsewhere. But you know, that's 765 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 3: part of the assessment as to am I dealing with 766 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 3: John as a suspect or as a victim or did 767 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 3: John just happen to go on a walk about and 768 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 3: not not realizing, you know, that something horrific has happened 769 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 3: to Grace while he's been just you know, doing whatever 770 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 3: he does. When he just decides to take up and 771 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 3: maybe tour the country. 772 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: Well, we'll find out a lot more in part two 773 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: of this story, and we'll talk about it more next week. 774 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 3: All right, I'm looking forward to it. 775 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 776 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried 777 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: Bones sources. 778 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi. 779 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson. 780 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum. 781 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 782 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 783 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarreff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 784 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 785 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 2: Barry Bones Pod. 786 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 787 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 788 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and. 789 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases. 790 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: Is also available now K