WEBVTT - The Army of God (with Stephanie McCrummen) (ENCORE) 0:00:15.082 --> 0:00:16.881 John and I are on break now who are on 0:00:16.962 --> 0:00:20.482 a secret mission and this before all new Mission Implausible 0:00:20.521 --> 0:00:23.482 episodes come out this fall. But for now, we'll bring 0:00:23.521 --> 0:00:26.721 you one of our favorite past episodes and we'll soon 0:00:26.802 --> 0:00:29.122 be launching our YouTube channel. See you there. 0:00:31.202 --> 0:00:34.242 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 0:00:34.322 --> 0:00:37.682 CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 0:00:37.682 --> 0:00:39.282 in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:39.402 --> 0:00:42.522 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 0:00:42.602 --> 0:00:46.682 and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 0:00:46.722 --> 0:00:47.641 our adversaries. 0:00:47.882 --> 0:00:51.562 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:51.602 --> 0:00:53.361 theories large and small. 0:00:53.641 --> 0:00:56.122 Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 0:00:56.642 --> 0:01:03.402 This is Mission Implausible. Today's guest is Stephanie mccrumman. She's 0:01:03.402 --> 0:01:06.722 a Pulitzer Prize winning writer for the Atlantic and previously 0:01:06.722 --> 0:01:09.202 worked as a journalist of the Washington Post, and we 0:01:09.242 --> 0:01:10.802 look forward to speaking with her about some of her 0:01:10.842 --> 0:01:14.601 recent writing on Christian nationalism and more specifically her recent 0:01:14.682 --> 0:01:16.922 art well in The Atlantic, entitled The Army of God 0:01:16.962 --> 0:01:19.042 Comes out of the Shadows. So, Stephanie, one of the 0:01:19.081 --> 0:01:22.722 people you interviewed called the New Apostolic Reformation, the most 0:01:22.722 --> 0:01:25.562 significant religious movement of the twenty first century and a 0:01:25.642 --> 0:01:28.601 serious threat to democracy. Is it really becoming a more 0:01:28.602 --> 0:01:30.321 dominant form of American Christianity. 0:01:30.642 --> 0:01:33.122 It seems that it is. I should say that overall 0:01:33.282 --> 0:01:38.002 Americans are becoming more secular, so that's the overall trend. 0:01:38.042 --> 0:01:42.241 But within people who identify themselves as Christians, this particular 0:01:42.322 --> 0:01:47.202 segment has been growing very rapidly in recent decades. And 0:01:47.282 --> 0:01:49.722 part of the reason it's flown under the radar a 0:01:49.722 --> 0:01:53.242 bit is because the old categories that have been used 0:01:53.242 --> 0:01:56.402 to measure religiosities are a bit out of date. So 0:01:56.682 --> 0:01:59.602 a lot of polls and surveys and stuff ask people, 0:01:59.682 --> 0:02:02.242 you know, are you Baptists, are you Catholic? Are you 0:02:02.322 --> 0:02:07.162 this that people who identify with these ideas that sort 0:02:07.202 --> 0:02:10.522 of fall under the umbrella of new Apostolic Reformation, they 0:02:10.522 --> 0:02:14.842 don't identify with the denomination. And you know, paradoxically, if 0:02:15.082 --> 0:02:17.602 you ask them if they are religious, they might even 0:02:17.642 --> 0:02:20.602 say no because one of the key beliefs, one of 0:02:20.602 --> 0:02:24.762 the core beliefs, is that denominations are sort of a sin, 0:02:25.121 --> 0:02:28.001 if you will, because they divide the kingdom of God, 0:02:28.362 --> 0:02:31.842 and so the surveys that do exist suggest certainly that 0:02:32.002 --> 0:02:35.362 charismatic Christianity is just growing like crazy, not only in 0:02:35.401 --> 0:02:38.162 the US but around the world. And this particular set 0:02:38.162 --> 0:02:41.562 of ideas that fall into the category of New Apostolic 0:02:41.642 --> 0:02:45.562 Reformation are also just growing by leaps and bounds. So 0:02:45.602 --> 0:02:49.281 people who adopt these ideas, if you ask them, oh, 0:02:49.322 --> 0:02:52.002 are you a follower of the New Apostolic Reformation, they 0:02:52.042 --> 0:02:53.922 would say, I don't know what you're talking about, but 0:02:54.002 --> 0:02:57.281 they if you say, do you believe in God's Kingdom, 0:02:57.681 --> 0:03:00.522 then they would say yes. Or the Seven Mountains mandate, 0:03:00.561 --> 0:03:02.522 which I can explain, they would say yes. 0:03:03.082 --> 0:03:05.762 So I grew up a Catholic and ALTI bore the 0:03:05.762 --> 0:03:08.922 whole thing. And in Catholicism, at least in the past, 0:03:09.082 --> 0:03:11.922 you could be a Democrat or Republican, right, But what 0:03:11.962 --> 0:03:14.802 you're talking about now it's also a political movement. 0:03:15.401 --> 0:03:19.362 The big shift in thinking really is that they believe 0:03:20.082 --> 0:03:23.802 that that is their duty as Christians, their mandate, their 0:03:23.802 --> 0:03:28.122 God given mission, is to establish the Kingdom of God 0:03:28.762 --> 0:03:32.522 on earth. It goes beyond thinking that the US is 0:03:32.561 --> 0:03:35.522 a Christian nation and whatever. The US is more a 0:03:35.562 --> 0:03:38.362 component of this larger thing called the Kingdom of God. 0:03:39.002 --> 0:03:42.402 The Kingdom of God is to the extent that it 0:03:42.482 --> 0:03:46.402 is translatable into a political party, you know, it aligns, 0:03:46.522 --> 0:03:50.442 of course with the conservative agenda, I suppose, not necessarily exclusively. 0:03:50.642 --> 0:03:54.602 So they very much believe that their job is not 0:03:54.722 --> 0:03:56.962 to like sit over in the corner and pray and 0:03:57.042 --> 0:03:59.282 wait for the kingdom to come, you know, in the 0:03:59.322 --> 0:04:02.002 next millennia or whatever, but that they are to establish 0:04:02.082 --> 0:04:05.882 it in the here and now, and that means going 0:04:05.922 --> 0:04:08.882 into politics. It means going it's not just the political realm, 0:04:08.922 --> 0:04:13.682 but every realm of life, to assert God's dominion over 0:04:13.802 --> 0:04:17.042 every sphere of life. So that's what the Seven Mountains 0:04:17.082 --> 0:04:20.762 mandate is. The people of God, you know, their mission 0:04:20.882 --> 0:04:28.361 to exercise dominion over let's see, what are the Seven mountains? Education, family, government, 0:04:28.802 --> 0:04:32.762 That's where politics comes in, media are It's a central 0:04:32.842 --> 0:04:35.322 part of what they believe they are supposed to do. 0:04:35.402 --> 0:04:39.882 And that's what makes this movement so aggressive politically and 0:04:40.042 --> 0:04:44.562 effective politically. They see their mission is to mobilize people. 0:04:45.162 --> 0:04:46.882 I just have to say, someone who spent a lot 0:04:46.882 --> 0:04:49.002 of time in the Middle East and dealing with Middle easterners, 0:04:49.002 --> 0:04:51.481 it says John, it sounds to me like you could 0:04:51.842 --> 0:04:55.522 substrate Christianity for Islam and you'd have Isis, or you'd 0:04:55.562 --> 0:04:58.002 have Iranian theocracy in there is. 0:04:58.082 --> 0:05:00.162 That is exactly what ISIS preaches that we need. 0:05:00.042 --> 0:05:03.882 To bring in their version of heaven on earth and 0:05:03.962 --> 0:05:06.082 to fulfill the word of God, and they need to 0:05:06.082 --> 0:05:07.802 suppress people who think differently. 0:05:08.042 --> 0:05:10.882 What do you do with the infidels? If you will, 0:05:10.962 --> 0:05:13.322 what is to become of them? Maybe it'll be like, 0:05:13.722 --> 0:05:17.602 you know, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, where if you didn't 0:05:17.642 --> 0:05:20.041 agree and you could exist as long as you didn't 0:05:20.202 --> 0:05:23.562 involve yourself in certain you know, in politics or certain. 0:05:23.402 --> 0:05:24.962 That's nice, of course. Yeah. 0:05:25.282 --> 0:05:28.002 And I should say that there is a very explicitly 0:05:28.122 --> 0:05:31.202 militaristic component of this movement too. But they talk about 0:05:31.242 --> 0:05:34.642 spiritual warfare and there are people who are in this 0:05:34.722 --> 0:05:38.682 movement who have training camps. They speak of the manifest 0:05:38.722 --> 0:05:41.642 Sons of God, which is supposed to be an elite unit, 0:05:41.722 --> 0:05:44.082 if you will, of God's army, that they are supposed 0:05:44.122 --> 0:05:47.122 to be endowed with special powers when the time comes 0:05:47.202 --> 0:05:50.522 to do battle. There very much is they will say, 0:05:50.882 --> 0:05:54.322 a component of warfare in the natural. That's that's their 0:05:54.402 --> 0:05:55.162 language they use. 0:05:55.442 --> 0:05:56.882 So let me get to a little bit of sort 0:05:56.882 --> 0:05:59.682 of that potential conspiracy part of this. Right, So it 0:05:59.802 --> 0:06:04.242 is about dismantling the institutions of secular government to clear 0:06:04.282 --> 0:06:07.602 the way for the Kingdom of God. Right, yes, but 0:06:07.722 --> 0:06:11.442 clearly to them the secular government doesn't include Donald Trump. 0:06:11.442 --> 0:06:12.282 And what we have now? 0:06:12.882 --> 0:06:16.122 How is it democrats and the media became the Satanists? 0:06:16.202 --> 0:06:18.522 Why it is only one part of the government become 0:06:18.922 --> 0:06:20.722 the enemy and the other one not behind it? How 0:06:20.722 --> 0:06:22.882 did it become like so tied to Donald Trump. 0:06:23.162 --> 0:06:26.402 Let's see, let's back up just a few notions. If 0:06:26.402 --> 0:06:29.962 you're a believer in this life, human history, everything is 0:06:30.002 --> 0:06:34.802 a great battle between God and Satan. And history is 0:06:34.842 --> 0:06:40.362 biblical history, and time is biblical time, and Heaven is real, 0:06:40.562 --> 0:06:45.802 and Hell is real, Satan is real, demons are real. 0:06:46.522 --> 0:06:49.602 This is how people think. So the question becomes who 0:06:49.642 --> 0:06:53.522 gets assigned to what? Who is satanic and who's demonic 0:06:53.602 --> 0:06:55.842 and so on and so forth. So Trump comes along, 0:06:56.202 --> 0:06:59.882 and obviously he's in the early days, if you remember, 0:06:59.922 --> 0:07:03.002 he had a problem with evangelical voters. 0:07:04.002 --> 0:07:06.682 Foremost among the myriad Trump supporters put in an awkward 0:07:06.682 --> 0:07:09.122 position by the release of that Access Hollywood tape. On Friday. 0:07:09.322 --> 0:07:12.682 Are Republican evangelicals Christian conservatives who are being forced to 0:07:12.722 --> 0:07:15.562 choose between voting as they almost always do for a 0:07:15.562 --> 0:07:18.642 Republican candidate and on the other hand, seeming to condone 0:07:18.842 --> 0:07:21.122 Donald Trump's screamingly impious behavior. 0:07:21.482 --> 0:07:23.122 Which is what's going to story. 0:07:22.962 --> 0:07:23.202 Going to be. 0:07:23.242 --> 0:07:25.642 Is Trump going to have the normal evangelical turnout or 0:07:25.642 --> 0:07:26.522 does he lose a bunch of them. 0:07:26.602 --> 0:07:28.282 I think he's going to lose a lot of evangelical 0:07:28.282 --> 0:07:29.682 women in the same way that he's going to lose 0:07:29.722 --> 0:07:34.722 a lot of women overall. You know, the evangelical establishment, 0:07:34.762 --> 0:07:42.162 we're supporting other candidates. Trump needed some component of these voters, 0:07:42.242 --> 0:07:46.082 and basically he was introduced to this world. These were 0:07:46.162 --> 0:07:49.362 the low propensity voters, if you will. These were people 0:07:49.362 --> 0:07:52.402 that were sort of that hadn't quite been tapped into 0:07:52.682 --> 0:07:56.762 by the Christian right, you know, when they're searching for 0:07:56.762 --> 0:07:59.682 these low propensity voters. Low and behold, there are all 0:07:59.722 --> 0:08:05.362 these churches, these charismatic Christian churches that haven't really been activated, 0:08:05.402 --> 0:08:07.562 if you will, And they have the benefit of being 0:08:07.602 --> 0:08:11.442 they're not just white. They're also Latino and black and brown, 0:08:11.562 --> 0:08:15.162 and they're more diverse. So Trump hooks up with this woman, 0:08:15.282 --> 0:08:19.242 Paula White, who's very much in this movement. She's an 0:08:19.242 --> 0:08:21.562 apostle in the movement, and she opens the door to 0:08:21.642 --> 0:08:22.242 this world. 0:08:23.082 --> 0:08:23.602 And so the. 0:08:23.602 --> 0:08:27.362 Bigle says that Martha random meet him, but Mary sat still. 0:08:27.642 --> 0:08:28.922 She lost her praise. 0:08:29.282 --> 0:08:32.082 And when the enemy gets your praise, then he's got 0:08:32.122 --> 0:08:34.682 your weapon, because your praise is a weapon that you 0:08:34.802 --> 0:08:35.602 go to war with. 0:08:36.002 --> 0:08:38.602 Another figure in the movement, I think he considers himself 0:08:38.602 --> 0:08:42.722 to be an apostle. Lance Walno, a very charismatic figure 0:08:42.722 --> 0:08:46.122 in this movement. He writes a book casting Trump as 0:08:46.202 --> 0:08:51.282 God's chaos candidate and develops this whole idea that Trump 0:08:51.402 --> 0:08:54.962 is being used by God and he's a modern day Cyrus, 0:08:55.402 --> 0:08:59.762 you know, the imperfect instrument, but who nonetheless is part 0:08:59.802 --> 0:09:00.602 of God's plan. 0:09:01.242 --> 0:09:07.362 Christians building sodalities is what shifted America. Spannon's war room, 0:09:07.642 --> 0:09:11.922 Charlie Kirk turning point our work that we did courage tour, 0:09:12.282 --> 0:09:14.642 going to the five of the seven swing stats, having 0:09:14.682 --> 0:09:17.282 raped well, he's one thousand signs, wonders and miracles of 0:09:17.322 --> 0:09:21.362 the night. Daytime me talking to the remnants about election integrity. 0:09:21.402 --> 0:09:25.002 We were able to purge one million fake votes out 0:09:25.002 --> 0:09:28.402 of the system in America. That's how come you've got 0:09:28.722 --> 0:09:33.442 your million popular vote. We eliminated the fake ones nobody 0:09:33.442 --> 0:09:34.922 knows about. That was our job. 0:09:35.482 --> 0:09:39.082 And so this idea gets disseminated and eventually takes hold, 0:09:39.402 --> 0:09:42.482 and pretty soon every kind of profit, big and small, 0:09:42.522 --> 0:09:44.642 they're all buying into this idea. 0:09:45.082 --> 0:09:47.402 I also wanted to think of the conspiracy theory part of. 0:09:47.322 --> 0:09:51.242 It, and also the latent anti Semitism that's in it. 0:09:51.322 --> 0:09:54.602 Why Hackabee is now the ambassador in Israel. He's close 0:09:54.682 --> 0:09:56.802 to Pastor John Hagey, who I think. 0:09:56.722 --> 0:09:57.682 Is also a part of this. 0:09:57.802 --> 0:10:01.842 And Hagey is famous for saying that in two thousand 0:10:01.842 --> 0:10:06.202 and six that God punished New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina 0:10:06.242 --> 0:10:10.442 because of homosexuality. Another part of this, and my understanding 0:10:10.442 --> 0:10:13.522 of is that we need to support Israel, at least 0:10:13.562 --> 0:10:16.442 the right wing politics of Israel, because it has to 0:10:16.482 --> 0:10:19.362 rebuild the Temple and take back the West Bank in 0:10:19.642 --> 0:10:23.282 order for the end times to come. And of course 0:10:23.362 --> 0:10:26.402 the end times, and I've worked in Israel, and I 0:10:26.442 --> 0:10:29.362 actually worked on a kibbutz very close to mcgido with 0:10:29.482 --> 0:10:32.722 it and the final Battle of Armaged it's supposed to 0:10:32.802 --> 0:10:37.362 happen is that, yeah, that God's army wins and the 0:10:37.482 --> 0:10:40.082 Jews they either have to convert. 0:10:39.762 --> 0:10:40.522 Or they go to Hell. 0:10:40.722 --> 0:10:44.642 And I always have trouble with Israeli politicians hugging these 0:10:44.682 --> 0:10:47.762 guys who know at the same time they think that 0:10:47.882 --> 0:10:52.042 their whole purpose in history is to bring about the 0:10:52.122 --> 0:10:53.482 end of the state of Israel and the end of 0:10:53.522 --> 0:10:54.362 the Jewish people and. 0:10:54.362 --> 0:10:55.322 To send them all the hell. 0:10:55.642 --> 0:11:00.282 What's interesting to me is to see how Natanyahu and 0:11:00.362 --> 0:11:05.322 his crowd was very much dealing with these people. And 0:11:05.362 --> 0:11:08.522 as this movement has not been written about very much, 0:11:08.802 --> 0:11:11.202 and it seemed as just I think for people who 0:11:11.202 --> 0:11:13.162 aren't in it, they think it's just what, it's just 0:11:13.282 --> 0:11:17.842 spiritual warfare demons. But net yaou takes it very seriously. 0:11:18.402 --> 0:11:20.802 And these people have a show, which I've written about 0:11:20.802 --> 0:11:24.882 before called Flashpoint. It's a streaming show, and net ya 0:11:25.042 --> 0:11:27.042 You've probably never heard of it. Most people aren't in 0:11:27.082 --> 0:11:30.482 this movement haven't heard of it. It's very popular. It's 0:11:30.522 --> 0:11:34.002 like CNN for the apostles and prophets, and instead of guests, 0:11:34.122 --> 0:11:36.362 they have profits come on and they talk about the 0:11:36.402 --> 0:11:40.522 news and how that fits with various prophecies and whatever. 0:11:40.682 --> 0:11:43.122 You know, and that often involves what's happening in Gaza, 0:11:43.202 --> 0:11:46.242 and it's happening in Israel and nettyaw who's been on 0:11:46.282 --> 0:11:49.682 there at least twice. If these people, if evangelical Christians 0:11:49.682 --> 0:11:53.122 are an important political constituency in the world of right 0:11:53.522 --> 0:11:56.162 more right wing Israeli politics, then like this is the 0:11:56.202 --> 0:12:01.322 future of the evangelical world, arguably in the US. 0:12:01.802 --> 0:12:04.162 So this is a broad movement, and as far as 0:12:04.162 --> 0:12:07.761 I can tell, there doesn't seem to be like a 0:12:07.882 --> 0:12:10.682 leader behind it. If everybody can be a prophet, why 0:12:10.682 --> 0:12:14.242 can't I say I'm a prophet and then say President 0:12:14.322 --> 0:12:17.322 Biden was actually sent by God and Donald Trump is 0:12:17.322 --> 0:12:20.482 the He's the airti Christ, which is I think you 0:12:20.482 --> 0:12:22.002 can make a better argument on that. 0:12:22.202 --> 0:12:25.322 You could just say, hey, I'm a prophet. But you 0:12:25.362 --> 0:12:27.722 also have to be recognized and have a following, and 0:12:27.762 --> 0:12:30.722 people have to agree that, hey, Jerry's hitting them out 0:12:30.722 --> 0:12:33.602 of the park here. So there's for example, a guy 0:12:33.962 --> 0:12:37.042 again like these people are very powerful in this world, 0:12:37.042 --> 0:12:38.642 but you may have never heard their names. A guy 0:12:38.722 --> 0:12:42.922 named che An in California is a very important apostle 0:12:43.042 --> 0:12:48.442 and has probably hundreds of churches under his spiritual authority, 0:12:48.722 --> 0:12:52.122 and he has authority over these churches. It's a very 0:12:52.162 --> 0:12:57.202 top down, not democratic structure. There's a guid named dutch Sheets. 0:12:57.242 --> 0:13:00.282 He's the one who popularized the pine tree flag. This 0:13:00.442 --> 0:13:02.642 is a white flag with the green pine tree that 0:13:02.682 --> 0:13:06.442 says appealed to Heaven. That appeared January sixth at the insurrection. 0:13:07.162 --> 0:13:10.722 But dutch Sheets has his own ministry. He's actually sort 0:13:10.722 --> 0:13:14.042 of a prophet and an apostle, has hundreds of thousands 0:13:14.082 --> 0:13:18.962 of followers, a minor sort of publishing empire. It's paradoxical. 0:13:19.082 --> 0:13:22.122 Is so much about this thing as paradoxical. It's authoritarian 0:13:22.522 --> 0:13:25.082 and yet it's decentralized at the same time. 0:13:25.442 --> 0:13:26.761 I was just going to say, to what extent is 0:13:26.842 --> 0:13:29.522 it a rural or regional phenomenon? Is it in cities 0:13:30.082 --> 0:13:30.402 the place? 0:13:30.602 --> 0:13:33.642 It's everywhere. It's everywhere. Like the church that Elon Musk 0:13:33.762 --> 0:13:37.762 spoke at. It's a big naar church in Harrisburg called 0:13:37.802 --> 0:13:42.562 Life Center. There's a profit in Brooklyn. Joseph Mattera is 0:13:42.682 --> 0:13:45.362 very important. You know, not everyone who follows this goes 0:13:45.402 --> 0:13:47.322 to a church. A lot of them just follow these 0:13:47.482 --> 0:13:51.962 profits online. But you'll find little storefront churches in rural areas. 0:13:52.082 --> 0:13:55.922 You'll find big churches in cities. They're all over Texas. 0:13:56.602 --> 0:13:59.962 You'll find old Baptist churches that maybe have been overtaken 0:14:00.042 --> 0:14:03.442 by people who are embracing these ideas. Really, it's just 0:14:03.642 --> 0:14:06.162 I've noticed them all over the place in my reporting. 0:14:06.922 --> 0:14:08.802 Let's pause for a second. We'll be right back. 0:14:22.522 --> 0:14:25.322 Part of the conspiracy theory, part of this is that 0:14:25.842 --> 0:14:29.362 some of the people and organizations who they pose by 0:14:29.442 --> 0:14:32.962 the Naar, now they are controlled by Satanists, their demons. 0:14:33.242 --> 0:14:35.042 I may be wrong about this, but I feel like 0:14:35.162 --> 0:14:37.842 Peter Wagner, he wrote a lot about spiritual warfare and 0:14:37.922 --> 0:14:41.442 demons and stuff. And I've been to churches where like 0:14:41.522 --> 0:14:44.922 the pastor will demon map the city because you know, 0:14:44.962 --> 0:14:49.122 people this movement believe that demonic forces not only can 0:14:49.202 --> 0:14:53.882 control people, but also territories. So like whole city may 0:14:53.922 --> 0:14:55.762 be infested with demons. 0:14:55.362 --> 0:14:56.042 Like their jersey. 0:14:56.162 --> 0:14:57.282 I think we could all agree on that. 0:14:58.162 --> 0:15:01.042 Yeah, the Middle East, obviously, you know, any place is 0:15:01.042 --> 0:15:05.522 not Christian, it's you know, demonic strongholded whatever territories. Washington, 0:15:05.602 --> 0:15:05.842 d C. 0:15:06.202 --> 0:15:06.402 You know. 0:15:06.722 --> 0:15:09.522 Roger Stone caught onto this lingo and was like, oh, 0:15:09.562 --> 0:15:12.882 there's a demon portal over the White house and whatever, 0:15:13.202 --> 0:15:16.722 and there's a whole thing in this world, you know, demonology, 0:15:17.482 --> 0:15:20.802 And so I think that there's like higher level demons 0:15:20.842 --> 0:15:24.002 and lower level demons, like I may just be as 0:15:24.042 --> 0:15:30.362 a reporter working for a secular publication that questioned Trump 0:15:30.442 --> 0:15:33.482 et cetera, et cetera in God's plan, Like I may 0:15:33.562 --> 0:15:35.802 just be a dupe. I may just be my mind 0:15:35.922 --> 0:15:39.642 may have been taken over by Satan. But other people 0:15:39.802 --> 0:15:44.242 may be more devoted to the mission, you know what 0:15:44.242 --> 0:15:46.682 I mean. So I think that there's gradations. 0:15:46.922 --> 0:15:49.122 So what I spend a lot of time in Afghanistan 0:15:49.282 --> 0:15:52.962 and interrupt dealing with ISIS and ISIS is a very 0:15:52.962 --> 0:15:56.002 clear answer to that. The answer is that you knowingly 0:15:56.082 --> 0:15:58.642 stand against God. Whether you're controlled by a demon or not. 0:15:58.682 --> 0:16:01.562 They don't get into that, but you knowingly stand against 0:16:01.802 --> 0:16:07.002 what they believe is God's plan, and therefore you, your family, 0:16:07.242 --> 0:16:10.122 anybody who stands with you can and should be killed 0:16:10.442 --> 0:16:14.042 or at least suppressed. So I find what you're saying 0:16:14.282 --> 0:16:17.322 very scary because we've seen it actually in a much 0:16:17.322 --> 0:16:22.562 more further advanced and actually taking place in another area. 0:16:22.682 --> 0:16:25.082 One thing, and I haven't written about this, but I 0:16:25.122 --> 0:16:29.362 find it very interesting that there are military people, high 0:16:29.442 --> 0:16:35.722 Profileish military people who have embraced these ideas. Michael Flynn 0:16:36.602 --> 0:16:42.962 military intelligence, Doug Meis military intelligence, Carol Boykin military intelligence. 0:16:43.242 --> 0:16:45.722 Like I mean, is that just like, oh, well, you know, 0:16:45.802 --> 0:16:48.322 there's a lot of religious beliefs, there's a lot of 0:16:48.322 --> 0:16:51.162 military intelligence people and some of them believe this or 0:16:51.682 --> 0:16:53.482 I don't know, what do you think about that? 0:16:53.482 --> 0:16:56.202 That's a really good question because I wonder to what 0:16:56.282 --> 0:16:58.642 extent these guys believe that when they're inside, and maybe 0:16:58.682 --> 0:17:00.922 they did because it really goes against what they're doing 0:17:00.922 --> 0:17:03.242 in their day to day work, because they work for 0:17:03.322 --> 0:17:05.762 the government. You mentioned that preacher Lance Wallnow you know 0:17:05.802 --> 0:17:08.321 he said you either have God or you've got a government. Well, 0:17:08.402 --> 0:17:10.202 only one person could be supreme, So how do you 0:17:10.242 --> 0:17:12.482 engage with that? How can you be in the US 0:17:12.561 --> 0:17:15.121 government as a military officer and believe that it's just 0:17:15.162 --> 0:17:18.442 people who believe different levels of things. I suppose, and 0:17:18.561 --> 0:17:21.321 Mike Flynn has gotten more and more. I worked with 0:17:21.322 --> 0:17:24.121 Mike Flinn. I know Mike Flynn fairly well where we 0:17:24.162 --> 0:17:27.002 don't get at bred WUS anymore, but he seems like 0:17:27.042 --> 0:17:29.482 he's gotten more and more radical. For I don't know 0:17:29.522 --> 0:17:32.162 whether it's for true religious belief or for its political 0:17:32.242 --> 0:17:34.802 or for its money. Who knows, But yeah, those things 0:17:34.842 --> 0:17:36.882 don't go together. And so I would find out, like 0:17:36.922 --> 0:17:40.442 I did not see that in our intelligence experience. 0:17:40.842 --> 0:17:44.602 So it's CIA. We just talk about various shades of gray. 0:17:44.642 --> 0:17:47.442 There's very little black or white, and in the military, 0:17:47.522 --> 0:17:50.161 because of their mission, it's different, and I think it 0:17:50.242 --> 0:17:54.602 is black or white. That's always the question. Is it delusional? 0:17:54.802 --> 0:17:57.922 Do they believe this stuff? Or are they grifters right 0:17:58.002 --> 0:18:01.081 they're that are making money off of this or opportunists. 0:18:01.522 --> 0:18:04.402 A while ago, there was a it was actually a 0:18:04.442 --> 0:18:07.562 CIA guy who was pushed out of the agency who 0:18:07.602 --> 0:18:12.562 started making these absurd claims that Halian satellites had stolen 0:18:12.682 --> 0:18:16.402 the real results of the twenty twenty elections and that 0:18:16.522 --> 0:18:20.242 people like like Lynn like just started parenting this. And 0:18:20.282 --> 0:18:22.482 what's so crazy is to say that the real results 0:18:22.482 --> 0:18:27.202 were stored in Frankfort in a CIA facility, and that 0:18:27.282 --> 0:18:30.442 the Delta and the Seals were involved in a firefight 0:18:30.522 --> 0:18:35.242 with CIA and Hillary Clinton was caught there and put 0:18:35.242 --> 0:18:39.762 out a mar Bartanamo obey And as crazy as this gets, 0:18:40.362 --> 0:18:44.682 Clarence Thomas's wife took this thing that hit some of 0:18:44.722 --> 0:18:47.442 the people that you're talking about supporting it or elements 0:18:47.442 --> 0:18:50.642 of it, and she wanted to overthrow the twenty twenty 0:18:50.682 --> 0:18:51.642 election results. 0:18:51.922 --> 0:18:53.162 She got to Mark Meadows with this. 0:18:53.202 --> 0:18:56.722 Who gave it to doj So you've got religion, you've 0:18:56.762 --> 0:19:00.682 got conspiracy theories, and you've got people who should be rational. 0:19:01.362 --> 0:19:03.722 I've touched to so many people who believe this stuff, 0:19:03.722 --> 0:19:06.922 and to them it's reality. To the true believers, it's 0:19:06.962 --> 0:19:09.842 of course, they don't see it as conspiracy. They see 0:19:09.842 --> 0:19:13.722 it as as reality. And it's just so deep in a. 0:19:13.762 --> 0:19:16.802 Cult, whether there's a cult leader or not, you can't 0:19:16.882 --> 0:19:18.962 question anything, right, That's sort of one of the things. 0:19:18.962 --> 0:19:21.482 If you can, if you're in the Democratic Party, you 0:19:21.522 --> 0:19:23.361 could say, well, I don't think Joe Biden did that 0:19:23.402 --> 0:19:25.722 great job. You know, he did some good things and 0:19:25.762 --> 0:19:27.442 he fucked up on some other things. 0:19:27.522 --> 0:19:29.122 And with Trump, you're either. 0:19:28.962 --> 0:19:31.162 All in or you're all in, right or with it. No, 0:19:31.362 --> 0:19:33.482 you're either all in or you're all up. So to 0:19:33.642 --> 0:19:35.682 what extent do you think this is getting into cult 0:19:35.762 --> 0:19:38.522 territory where you're not allowed to question any of this. 0:19:38.802 --> 0:19:40.842 You're either all in or you're all out. 0:19:41.042 --> 0:19:46.322 This is really basically an anti Enlightenment movement. Everything went 0:19:46.402 --> 0:19:50.642 wrong when people started trusting their brain rationality. 0:19:51.082 --> 0:19:53.442 It's been all downhill since the fourteen hundreds. 0:19:53.442 --> 0:19:56.162 I just wortge, yeah, yeah, in a very real way. 0:19:56.202 --> 0:19:59.162 And it's like they really think that was the beginning 0:19:59.362 --> 0:20:03.321 of displacing God and replacing God with our own reason 0:20:03.802 --> 0:20:08.402 and so on a really fundamental level, you can't really 0:20:08.562 --> 0:20:15.282 trust your brain unless it is guided by God in 0:20:15.322 --> 0:20:18.002 the Bible. But the other thing about this movement is 0:20:18.042 --> 0:20:23.642 that because they embrace modern day apostles and prophets, they 0:20:23.722 --> 0:20:27.882 have innovated, if you will, the idea that God is 0:20:27.962 --> 0:20:34.602 speaking through prophets. Like now there's new stuff, there's new materials, 0:20:35.042 --> 0:20:38.242 it's not just the Bible anymore. It's also that Dutch 0:20:38.282 --> 0:20:44.042 Sheets had a dream about riding on horseback to the 0:20:44.082 --> 0:20:45.762 Capitol on January sixth. 0:20:47.242 --> 0:20:51.561 This morning, December thirty first, I dreamed I was with 0:20:51.602 --> 0:20:55.162 our prayer team and we were coming back from having 0:20:55.202 --> 0:21:01.842 accomplished an assignment. We were leading tall, muscular horses by 0:21:01.882 --> 0:21:06.242 their bridle reins. Our horses didn't appear to be tired, 0:21:06.962 --> 0:21:13.122 but they were hot and sweaty. We had apparently been 0:21:13.202 --> 0:21:18.482 running them hard. We found ourselves in a field and 0:21:18.562 --> 0:21:22.962 could see out in front of us the US Capitol Building. 0:21:23.962 --> 0:21:28.082 We mounted our horses and as we sat looking at 0:21:28.082 --> 0:21:33.442 the building, we heard air sirens going off. As the 0:21:33.522 --> 0:21:37.962 sirens were sounding, we saw a huge hand come down 0:21:38.042 --> 0:21:42.361 from the sky and take hold of the dome of 0:21:42.482 --> 0:21:46.162 the Capitol Building. With the fingers of the hand wrapped 0:21:46.242 --> 0:21:51.361 around the dome, the thumb of the hand flicked the 0:21:51.442 --> 0:21:57.282 dome open. When it was opened, a very thick black 0:21:57.682 --> 0:22:02.442 smoke began rising up out of the building. We then 0:22:02.562 --> 0:22:08.282 heard a cavalry bugle playing the signal to charge, and 0:22:08.362 --> 0:22:12.842 we began moving toward the Capitol, not at a full gallop, 0:22:13.202 --> 0:22:18.642 but at a steady, determined, fast trot. As we started 0:22:19.282 --> 0:22:23.282 on the ground in front of us, written in white 0:22:23.402 --> 0:22:29.802 letters for the words don't stop. That's the end of 0:22:29.882 --> 0:22:31.442 the dream, Happy New Year. 0:22:32.282 --> 0:22:35.042 Not need the Jesus guy anymore, right, because you've got 0:22:35.362 --> 0:22:36.202 modern day profits. 0:22:36.282 --> 0:22:38.922 I mean, it's interesting. I don't really speak a lot 0:22:38.922 --> 0:22:42.002 about Jesus, honestly, And what they do is they speak 0:22:42.002 --> 0:22:45.042 a lot about the Old Testament a lot, and they 0:22:45.122 --> 0:22:49.842