1 00:00:15,082 --> 00:00:16,881 Speaker 1: John and I are on break now who are on 2 00:00:16,962 --> 00:00:20,482 Speaker 1: a secret mission and this before all new Mission Implausible 3 00:00:20,521 --> 00:00:23,482 Speaker 1: episodes come out this fall. But for now, we'll bring 4 00:00:23,521 --> 00:00:26,721 Speaker 1: you one of our favorite past episodes and we'll soon 5 00:00:26,802 --> 00:00:29,122 Speaker 1: be launching our YouTube channel. See you there. 6 00:00:31,202 --> 00:00:34,242 Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 7 00:00:34,322 --> 00:00:37,682 Speaker 2: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 8 00:00:37,682 --> 00:00:39,282 Speaker 2: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 9 00:00:39,402 --> 00:00:42,522 Speaker 3: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 10 00:00:42,602 --> 00:00:46,682 Speaker 3: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 11 00:00:46,722 --> 00:00:47,641 Speaker 3: our adversaries. 12 00:00:47,882 --> 00:00:51,562 Speaker 2: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 13 00:00:51,602 --> 00:00:53,361 Speaker 2: theories large and small. 14 00:00:53,641 --> 00:00:56,122 Speaker 4: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 15 00:00:56,642 --> 00:01:03,402 Speaker 2: This is Mission Implausible. Today's guest is Stephanie mccrumman. She's 16 00:01:03,402 --> 00:01:06,722 Speaker 2: a Pulitzer Prize winning writer for the Atlantic and previously 17 00:01:06,722 --> 00:01:09,202 Speaker 2: worked as a journalist of the Washington Post, and we 18 00:01:09,242 --> 00:01:10,802 Speaker 2: look forward to speaking with her about some of her 19 00:01:10,842 --> 00:01:14,601 Speaker 2: recent writing on Christian nationalism and more specifically her recent 20 00:01:14,682 --> 00:01:16,922 Speaker 2: art well in The Atlantic, entitled The Army of God 21 00:01:16,962 --> 00:01:19,042 Speaker 2: Comes out of the Shadows. So, Stephanie, one of the 22 00:01:19,081 --> 00:01:22,722 Speaker 2: people you interviewed called the New Apostolic Reformation, the most 23 00:01:22,722 --> 00:01:25,562 Speaker 2: significant religious movement of the twenty first century and a 24 00:01:25,642 --> 00:01:28,601 Speaker 2: serious threat to democracy. Is it really becoming a more 25 00:01:28,602 --> 00:01:30,321 Speaker 2: dominant form of American Christianity. 26 00:01:30,642 --> 00:01:33,122 Speaker 5: It seems that it is. I should say that overall 27 00:01:33,282 --> 00:01:38,002 Speaker 5: Americans are becoming more secular, so that's the overall trend. 28 00:01:38,042 --> 00:01:42,241 Speaker 5: But within people who identify themselves as Christians, this particular 29 00:01:42,322 --> 00:01:47,202 Speaker 5: segment has been growing very rapidly in recent decades. And 30 00:01:47,282 --> 00:01:49,722 Speaker 5: part of the reason it's flown under the radar a 31 00:01:49,722 --> 00:01:53,242 Speaker 5: bit is because the old categories that have been used 32 00:01:53,242 --> 00:01:56,402 Speaker 5: to measure religiosities are a bit out of date. So 33 00:01:56,682 --> 00:01:59,602 Speaker 5: a lot of polls and surveys and stuff ask people, 34 00:01:59,682 --> 00:02:02,242 Speaker 5: you know, are you Baptists, are you Catholic? Are you 35 00:02:02,322 --> 00:02:07,162 Speaker 5: this that people who identify with these ideas that sort 36 00:02:07,202 --> 00:02:10,522 Speaker 5: of fall under the umbrella of new Apostolic Reformation, they 37 00:02:10,522 --> 00:02:14,842 Speaker 5: don't identify with the denomination. And you know, paradoxically, if 38 00:02:15,082 --> 00:02:17,602 Speaker 5: you ask them if they are religious, they might even 39 00:02:17,642 --> 00:02:20,602 Speaker 5: say no because one of the key beliefs, one of 40 00:02:20,602 --> 00:02:24,762 Speaker 5: the core beliefs, is that denominations are sort of a sin, 41 00:02:25,121 --> 00:02:28,001 Speaker 5: if you will, because they divide the kingdom of God, 42 00:02:28,362 --> 00:02:31,842 Speaker 5: and so the surveys that do exist suggest certainly that 43 00:02:32,002 --> 00:02:35,362 Speaker 5: charismatic Christianity is just growing like crazy, not only in 44 00:02:35,401 --> 00:02:38,162 Speaker 5: the US but around the world. And this particular set 45 00:02:38,162 --> 00:02:41,562 Speaker 5: of ideas that fall into the category of New Apostolic 46 00:02:41,642 --> 00:02:45,562 Speaker 5: Reformation are also just growing by leaps and bounds. So 47 00:02:45,602 --> 00:02:49,281 Speaker 5: people who adopt these ideas, if you ask them, oh, 48 00:02:49,322 --> 00:02:52,002 Speaker 5: are you a follower of the New Apostolic Reformation, they 49 00:02:52,042 --> 00:02:53,922 Speaker 5: would say, I don't know what you're talking about, but 50 00:02:54,002 --> 00:02:57,281 Speaker 5: they if you say, do you believe in God's Kingdom, 51 00:02:57,681 --> 00:03:00,522 Speaker 5: then they would say yes. Or the Seven Mountains mandate, 52 00:03:00,561 --> 00:03:02,522 Speaker 5: which I can explain, they would say yes. 53 00:03:03,082 --> 00:03:05,762 Speaker 3: So I grew up a Catholic and ALTI bore the 54 00:03:05,762 --> 00:03:08,922 Speaker 3: whole thing. And in Catholicism, at least in the past, 55 00:03:09,082 --> 00:03:11,922 Speaker 3: you could be a Democrat or Republican, right, But what 56 00:03:11,962 --> 00:03:14,802 Speaker 3: you're talking about now it's also a political movement. 57 00:03:15,401 --> 00:03:19,362 Speaker 5: The big shift in thinking really is that they believe 58 00:03:20,082 --> 00:03:23,802 Speaker 5: that that is their duty as Christians, their mandate, their 59 00:03:23,802 --> 00:03:28,122 Speaker 5: God given mission, is to establish the Kingdom of God 60 00:03:28,762 --> 00:03:32,522 Speaker 5: on earth. It goes beyond thinking that the US is 61 00:03:32,561 --> 00:03:35,522 Speaker 5: a Christian nation and whatever. The US is more a 62 00:03:35,562 --> 00:03:38,362 Speaker 5: component of this larger thing called the Kingdom of God. 63 00:03:39,002 --> 00:03:42,402 Speaker 5: The Kingdom of God is to the extent that it 64 00:03:42,482 --> 00:03:46,402 Speaker 5: is translatable into a political party, you know, it aligns, 65 00:03:46,522 --> 00:03:50,442 Speaker 5: of course with the conservative agenda, I suppose, not necessarily exclusively. 66 00:03:50,642 --> 00:03:54,602 Speaker 5: So they very much believe that their job is not 67 00:03:54,722 --> 00:03:56,962 Speaker 5: to like sit over in the corner and pray and 68 00:03:57,042 --> 00:03:59,282 Speaker 5: wait for the kingdom to come, you know, in the 69 00:03:59,322 --> 00:04:02,002 Speaker 5: next millennia or whatever, but that they are to establish 70 00:04:02,082 --> 00:04:05,882 Speaker 5: it in the here and now, and that means going 71 00:04:05,922 --> 00:04:08,882 Speaker 5: into politics. It means going it's not just the political realm, 72 00:04:08,922 --> 00:04:13,682 Speaker 5: but every realm of life, to assert God's dominion over 73 00:04:13,802 --> 00:04:17,042 Speaker 5: every sphere of life. So that's what the Seven Mountains 74 00:04:17,082 --> 00:04:20,762 Speaker 5: mandate is. The people of God, you know, their mission 75 00:04:20,882 --> 00:04:28,361 Speaker 5: to exercise dominion over let's see, what are the Seven mountains? Education, family, government, 76 00:04:28,802 --> 00:04:32,762 Speaker 5: That's where politics comes in, media are It's a central 77 00:04:32,842 --> 00:04:35,322 Speaker 5: part of what they believe they are supposed to do. 78 00:04:35,402 --> 00:04:39,882 Speaker 5: And that's what makes this movement so aggressive politically and 79 00:04:40,042 --> 00:04:44,562 Speaker 5: effective politically. They see their mission is to mobilize people. 80 00:04:45,162 --> 00:04:46,882 Speaker 3: I just have to say, someone who spent a lot 81 00:04:46,882 --> 00:04:49,002 Speaker 3: of time in the Middle East and dealing with Middle easterners, 82 00:04:49,002 --> 00:04:51,481 Speaker 3: it says John, it sounds to me like you could 83 00:04:51,842 --> 00:04:55,522 Speaker 3: substrate Christianity for Islam and you'd have Isis, or you'd 84 00:04:55,562 --> 00:04:58,002 Speaker 3: have Iranian theocracy in there is. 85 00:04:58,082 --> 00:05:00,162 Speaker 4: That is exactly what ISIS preaches that we need. 86 00:05:00,042 --> 00:05:03,882 Speaker 3: To bring in their version of heaven on earth and 87 00:05:03,962 --> 00:05:06,082 Speaker 3: to fulfill the word of God, and they need to 88 00:05:06,082 --> 00:05:07,802 Speaker 3: suppress people who think differently. 89 00:05:08,042 --> 00:05:10,882 Speaker 5: What do you do with the infidels? If you will, 90 00:05:10,962 --> 00:05:13,322 Speaker 5: what is to become of them? Maybe it'll be like, 91 00:05:13,722 --> 00:05:17,602 Speaker 5: you know, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, where if you didn't 92 00:05:17,642 --> 00:05:20,041 Speaker 5: agree and you could exist as long as you didn't 93 00:05:20,202 --> 00:05:23,562 Speaker 5: involve yourself in certain you know, in politics or certain. 94 00:05:23,402 --> 00:05:24,962 Speaker 2: That's nice, of course. Yeah. 95 00:05:25,282 --> 00:05:28,002 Speaker 5: And I should say that there is a very explicitly 96 00:05:28,122 --> 00:05:31,202 Speaker 5: militaristic component of this movement too. But they talk about 97 00:05:31,242 --> 00:05:34,642 Speaker 5: spiritual warfare and there are people who are in this 98 00:05:34,722 --> 00:05:38,682 Speaker 5: movement who have training camps. They speak of the manifest 99 00:05:38,722 --> 00:05:41,642 Speaker 5: Sons of God, which is supposed to be an elite unit, 100 00:05:41,722 --> 00:05:44,082 Speaker 5: if you will, of God's army, that they are supposed 101 00:05:44,122 --> 00:05:47,122 Speaker 5: to be endowed with special powers when the time comes 102 00:05:47,202 --> 00:05:50,522 Speaker 5: to do battle. There very much is they will say, 103 00:05:50,882 --> 00:05:54,322 Speaker 5: a component of warfare in the natural. That's that's their 104 00:05:54,402 --> 00:05:55,162 Speaker 5: language they use. 105 00:05:55,442 --> 00:05:56,882 Speaker 2: So let me get to a little bit of sort 106 00:05:56,882 --> 00:05:59,682 Speaker 2: of that potential conspiracy part of this. Right, So it 107 00:05:59,802 --> 00:06:04,242 Speaker 2: is about dismantling the institutions of secular government to clear 108 00:06:04,282 --> 00:06:07,602 Speaker 2: the way for the Kingdom of God. Right, yes, but 109 00:06:07,722 --> 00:06:11,442 Speaker 2: clearly to them the secular government doesn't include Donald Trump. 110 00:06:11,442 --> 00:06:12,282 Speaker 4: And what we have now? 111 00:06:12,882 --> 00:06:16,122 Speaker 2: How is it democrats and the media became the Satanists? 112 00:06:16,202 --> 00:06:18,522 Speaker 2: Why it is only one part of the government become 113 00:06:18,922 --> 00:06:20,722 Speaker 2: the enemy and the other one not behind it? How 114 00:06:20,722 --> 00:06:22,882 Speaker 2: did it become like so tied to Donald Trump. 115 00:06:23,162 --> 00:06:26,402 Speaker 5: Let's see, let's back up just a few notions. If 116 00:06:26,402 --> 00:06:29,962 Speaker 5: you're a believer in this life, human history, everything is 117 00:06:30,002 --> 00:06:34,802 Speaker 5: a great battle between God and Satan. And history is 118 00:06:34,842 --> 00:06:40,362 Speaker 5: biblical history, and time is biblical time, and Heaven is real, 119 00:06:40,562 --> 00:06:45,802 Speaker 5: and Hell is real, Satan is real, demons are real. 120 00:06:46,522 --> 00:06:49,602 Speaker 5: This is how people think. So the question becomes who 121 00:06:49,642 --> 00:06:53,522 Speaker 5: gets assigned to what? Who is satanic and who's demonic 122 00:06:53,602 --> 00:06:55,842 Speaker 5: and so on and so forth. So Trump comes along, 123 00:06:56,202 --> 00:06:59,882 Speaker 5: and obviously he's in the early days, if you remember, 124 00:06:59,922 --> 00:07:03,002 Speaker 5: he had a problem with evangelical voters. 125 00:07:04,002 --> 00:07:06,682 Speaker 6: Foremost among the myriad Trump supporters put in an awkward 126 00:07:06,682 --> 00:07:09,122 Speaker 6: position by the release of that Access Hollywood tape. On Friday. 127 00:07:09,322 --> 00:07:12,682 Speaker 6: Are Republican evangelicals Christian conservatives who are being forced to 128 00:07:12,722 --> 00:07:15,562 Speaker 6: choose between voting as they almost always do for a 129 00:07:15,562 --> 00:07:18,642 Speaker 6: Republican candidate and on the other hand, seeming to condone 130 00:07:18,842 --> 00:07:21,122 Speaker 6: Donald Trump's screamingly impious behavior. 131 00:07:21,482 --> 00:07:23,122 Speaker 4: Which is what's going to story. 132 00:07:22,962 --> 00:07:23,202 Speaker 2: Going to be. 133 00:07:23,242 --> 00:07:25,642 Speaker 6: Is Trump going to have the normal evangelical turnout or 134 00:07:25,642 --> 00:07:26,522 Speaker 6: does he lose a bunch of them. 135 00:07:26,602 --> 00:07:28,282 Speaker 5: I think he's going to lose a lot of evangelical 136 00:07:28,282 --> 00:07:29,682 Speaker 5: women in the same way that he's going to lose 137 00:07:29,722 --> 00:07:34,722 Speaker 5: a lot of women overall. You know, the evangelical establishment, 138 00:07:34,762 --> 00:07:42,162 Speaker 5: we're supporting other candidates. Trump needed some component of these voters, 139 00:07:42,242 --> 00:07:46,082 Speaker 5: and basically he was introduced to this world. These were 140 00:07:46,162 --> 00:07:49,362 Speaker 5: the low propensity voters, if you will. These were people 141 00:07:49,362 --> 00:07:52,402 Speaker 5: that were sort of that hadn't quite been tapped into 142 00:07:52,682 --> 00:07:56,762 Speaker 5: by the Christian right, you know, when they're searching for 143 00:07:56,762 --> 00:07:59,682 Speaker 5: these low propensity voters. Low and behold, there are all 144 00:07:59,722 --> 00:08:05,362 Speaker 5: these churches, these charismatic Christian churches that haven't really been activated, 145 00:08:05,402 --> 00:08:07,562 Speaker 5: if you will, And they have the benefit of being 146 00:08:07,602 --> 00:08:11,442 Speaker 5: they're not just white. They're also Latino and black and brown, 147 00:08:11,562 --> 00:08:15,162 Speaker 5: and they're more diverse. So Trump hooks up with this woman, 148 00:08:15,282 --> 00:08:19,242 Speaker 5: Paula White, who's very much in this movement. She's an 149 00:08:19,242 --> 00:08:21,562 Speaker 5: apostle in the movement, and she opens the door to 150 00:08:21,642 --> 00:08:22,242 Speaker 5: this world. 151 00:08:23,082 --> 00:08:23,602 Speaker 2: And so the. 152 00:08:23,602 --> 00:08:27,362 Speaker 7: Bigle says that Martha random meet him, but Mary sat still. 153 00:08:27,642 --> 00:08:28,922 Speaker 2: She lost her praise. 154 00:08:29,282 --> 00:08:32,082 Speaker 6: And when the enemy gets your praise, then he's got 155 00:08:32,122 --> 00:08:34,682 Speaker 6: your weapon, because your praise is a weapon that you 156 00:08:34,802 --> 00:08:35,602 Speaker 6: go to war with. 157 00:08:36,002 --> 00:08:38,602 Speaker 5: Another figure in the movement, I think he considers himself 158 00:08:38,602 --> 00:08:42,722 Speaker 5: to be an apostle. Lance Walno, a very charismatic figure 159 00:08:42,722 --> 00:08:46,122 Speaker 5: in this movement. He writes a book casting Trump as 160 00:08:46,202 --> 00:08:51,282 Speaker 5: God's chaos candidate and develops this whole idea that Trump 161 00:08:51,402 --> 00:08:54,962 Speaker 5: is being used by God and he's a modern day Cyrus, 162 00:08:55,402 --> 00:08:59,762 Speaker 5: you know, the imperfect instrument, but who nonetheless is part 163 00:08:59,802 --> 00:09:00,602 Speaker 5: of God's plan. 164 00:09:01,242 --> 00:09:07,362 Speaker 8: Christians building sodalities is what shifted America. Spannon's war room, 165 00:09:07,642 --> 00:09:11,922 Speaker 8: Charlie Kirk turning point our work that we did courage tour, 166 00:09:12,282 --> 00:09:14,642 Speaker 8: going to the five of the seven swing stats, having 167 00:09:14,682 --> 00:09:17,282 Speaker 8: raped well, he's one thousand signs, wonders and miracles of 168 00:09:17,322 --> 00:09:21,362 Speaker 8: the night. Daytime me talking to the remnants about election integrity. 169 00:09:21,402 --> 00:09:25,002 Speaker 8: We were able to purge one million fake votes out 170 00:09:25,002 --> 00:09:28,402 Speaker 8: of the system in America. That's how come you've got 171 00:09:28,722 --> 00:09:33,442 Speaker 8: your million popular vote. We eliminated the fake ones nobody 172 00:09:33,442 --> 00:09:34,922 Speaker 8: knows about. That was our job. 173 00:09:35,482 --> 00:09:39,082 Speaker 5: And so this idea gets disseminated and eventually takes hold, 174 00:09:39,402 --> 00:09:42,482 Speaker 5: and pretty soon every kind of profit, big and small, 175 00:09:42,522 --> 00:09:44,642 Speaker 5: they're all buying into this idea. 176 00:09:45,082 --> 00:09:47,402 Speaker 4: I also wanted to think of the conspiracy theory part of. 177 00:09:47,322 --> 00:09:51,242 Speaker 3: It, and also the latent anti Semitism that's in it. 178 00:09:51,322 --> 00:09:54,602 Speaker 3: Why Hackabee is now the ambassador in Israel. He's close 179 00:09:54,682 --> 00:09:56,802 Speaker 3: to Pastor John Hagey, who I think. 180 00:09:56,722 --> 00:09:57,682 Speaker 4: Is also a part of this. 181 00:09:57,802 --> 00:10:01,842 Speaker 3: And Hagey is famous for saying that in two thousand 182 00:10:01,842 --> 00:10:06,202 Speaker 3: and six that God punished New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina 183 00:10:06,242 --> 00:10:10,442 Speaker 3: because of homosexuality. Another part of this, and my understanding 184 00:10:10,442 --> 00:10:13,522 Speaker 3: of is that we need to support Israel, at least 185 00:10:13,562 --> 00:10:16,442 Speaker 3: the right wing politics of Israel, because it has to 186 00:10:16,482 --> 00:10:19,362 Speaker 3: rebuild the Temple and take back the West Bank in 187 00:10:19,642 --> 00:10:23,282 Speaker 3: order for the end times to come. And of course 188 00:10:23,362 --> 00:10:26,402 Speaker 3: the end times, and I've worked in Israel, and I 189 00:10:26,442 --> 00:10:29,362 Speaker 3: actually worked on a kibbutz very close to mcgido with 190 00:10:29,482 --> 00:10:32,722 Speaker 3: it and the final Battle of Armaged it's supposed to 191 00:10:32,802 --> 00:10:37,362 Speaker 3: happen is that, yeah, that God's army wins and the 192 00:10:37,482 --> 00:10:40,082 Speaker 3: Jews they either have to convert. 193 00:10:39,762 --> 00:10:40,522 Speaker 4: Or they go to Hell. 194 00:10:40,722 --> 00:10:44,642 Speaker 3: And I always have trouble with Israeli politicians hugging these 195 00:10:44,682 --> 00:10:47,762 Speaker 3: guys who know at the same time they think that 196 00:10:47,882 --> 00:10:52,042 Speaker 3: their whole purpose in history is to bring about the 197 00:10:52,122 --> 00:10:53,482 Speaker 3: end of the state of Israel and the end of 198 00:10:53,522 --> 00:10:54,362 Speaker 3: the Jewish people and. 199 00:10:54,362 --> 00:10:55,322 Speaker 4: To send them all the hell. 200 00:10:55,642 --> 00:11:00,282 Speaker 5: What's interesting to me is to see how Natanyahu and 201 00:11:00,362 --> 00:11:05,322 Speaker 5: his crowd was very much dealing with these people. And 202 00:11:05,362 --> 00:11:08,522 Speaker 5: as this movement has not been written about very much, 203 00:11:08,802 --> 00:11:11,202 Speaker 5: and it seemed as just I think for people who 204 00:11:11,202 --> 00:11:13,162 Speaker 5: aren't in it, they think it's just what, it's just 205 00:11:13,282 --> 00:11:17,842 Speaker 5: spiritual warfare demons. But net yaou takes it very seriously. 206 00:11:18,402 --> 00:11:20,802 Speaker 5: And these people have a show, which I've written about 207 00:11:20,802 --> 00:11:24,882 Speaker 5: before called Flashpoint. It's a streaming show, and net ya 208 00:11:25,042 --> 00:11:27,042 Speaker 5: You've probably never heard of it. Most people aren't in 209 00:11:27,082 --> 00:11:30,482 Speaker 5: this movement haven't heard of it. It's very popular. It's 210 00:11:30,522 --> 00:11:34,002 Speaker 5: like CNN for the apostles and prophets, and instead of guests, 211 00:11:34,122 --> 00:11:36,362 Speaker 5: they have profits come on and they talk about the 212 00:11:36,402 --> 00:11:40,522 Speaker 5: news and how that fits with various prophecies and whatever. 213 00:11:40,682 --> 00:11:43,122 Speaker 5: You know, and that often involves what's happening in Gaza, 214 00:11:43,202 --> 00:11:46,242 Speaker 5: and it's happening in Israel and nettyaw who's been on 215 00:11:46,282 --> 00:11:49,682 Speaker 5: there at least twice. If these people, if evangelical Christians 216 00:11:49,682 --> 00:11:53,122 Speaker 5: are an important political constituency in the world of right 217 00:11:53,522 --> 00:11:56,162 Speaker 5: more right wing Israeli politics, then like this is the 218 00:11:56,202 --> 00:12:01,322 Speaker 5: future of the evangelical world, arguably in the US. 219 00:12:01,802 --> 00:12:04,162 Speaker 3: So this is a broad movement, and as far as 220 00:12:04,162 --> 00:12:07,761 Speaker 3: I can tell, there doesn't seem to be like a 221 00:12:07,882 --> 00:12:10,682 Speaker 3: leader behind it. If everybody can be a prophet, why 222 00:12:10,682 --> 00:12:14,242 Speaker 3: can't I say I'm a prophet and then say President 223 00:12:14,322 --> 00:12:17,322 Speaker 3: Biden was actually sent by God and Donald Trump is 224 00:12:17,322 --> 00:12:20,482 Speaker 3: the He's the airti Christ, which is I think you 225 00:12:20,482 --> 00:12:22,002 Speaker 3: can make a better argument on that. 226 00:12:22,202 --> 00:12:25,322 Speaker 5: You could just say, hey, I'm a prophet. But you 227 00:12:25,362 --> 00:12:27,722 Speaker 5: also have to be recognized and have a following, and 228 00:12:27,762 --> 00:12:30,722 Speaker 5: people have to agree that, hey, Jerry's hitting them out 229 00:12:30,722 --> 00:12:33,602 Speaker 5: of the park here. So there's for example, a guy 230 00:12:33,962 --> 00:12:37,042 Speaker 5: again like these people are very powerful in this world, 231 00:12:37,042 --> 00:12:38,642 Speaker 5: but you may have never heard their names. A guy 232 00:12:38,722 --> 00:12:42,922 Speaker 5: named che An in California is a very important apostle 233 00:12:43,042 --> 00:12:48,442 Speaker 5: and has probably hundreds of churches under his spiritual authority, 234 00:12:48,722 --> 00:12:52,122 Speaker 5: and he has authority over these churches. It's a very 235 00:12:52,162 --> 00:12:57,202 Speaker 5: top down, not democratic structure. There's a guid named dutch Sheets. 236 00:12:57,242 --> 00:13:00,282 Speaker 5: He's the one who popularized the pine tree flag. This 237 00:13:00,442 --> 00:13:02,642 Speaker 5: is a white flag with the green pine tree that 238 00:13:02,682 --> 00:13:06,442 Speaker 5: says appealed to Heaven. That appeared January sixth at the insurrection. 239 00:13:07,162 --> 00:13:10,722 Speaker 5: But dutch Sheets has his own ministry. He's actually sort 240 00:13:10,722 --> 00:13:14,042 Speaker 5: of a prophet and an apostle, has hundreds of thousands 241 00:13:14,082 --> 00:13:18,962 Speaker 5: of followers, a minor sort of publishing empire. It's paradoxical. 242 00:13:19,082 --> 00:13:22,122 Speaker 5: Is so much about this thing as paradoxical. It's authoritarian 243 00:13:22,522 --> 00:13:25,082 Speaker 5: and yet it's decentralized at the same time. 244 00:13:25,442 --> 00:13:26,761 Speaker 2: I was just going to say, to what extent is 245 00:13:26,842 --> 00:13:29,522 Speaker 2: it a rural or regional phenomenon? Is it in cities 246 00:13:30,082 --> 00:13:30,402 Speaker 2: the place? 247 00:13:30,602 --> 00:13:33,642 Speaker 5: It's everywhere. It's everywhere. Like the church that Elon Musk 248 00:13:33,762 --> 00:13:37,762 Speaker 5: spoke at. It's a big naar church in Harrisburg called 249 00:13:37,802 --> 00:13:42,562 Speaker 5: Life Center. There's a profit in Brooklyn. Joseph Mattera is 250 00:13:42,682 --> 00:13:45,362 Speaker 5: very important. You know, not everyone who follows this goes 251 00:13:45,402 --> 00:13:47,322 Speaker 5: to a church. A lot of them just follow these 252 00:13:47,482 --> 00:13:51,962 Speaker 5: profits online. But you'll find little storefront churches in rural areas. 253 00:13:52,082 --> 00:13:55,922 Speaker 5: You'll find big churches in cities. They're all over Texas. 254 00:13:56,602 --> 00:13:59,962 Speaker 5: You'll find old Baptist churches that maybe have been overtaken 255 00:14:00,042 --> 00:14:03,442 Speaker 5: by people who are embracing these ideas. Really, it's just 256 00:14:03,642 --> 00:14:06,162 Speaker 5: I've noticed them all over the place in my reporting. 257 00:14:06,922 --> 00:14:08,802 Speaker 4: Let's pause for a second. We'll be right back. 258 00:14:22,522 --> 00:14:25,322 Speaker 3: Part of the conspiracy theory, part of this is that 259 00:14:25,842 --> 00:14:29,362 Speaker 3: some of the people and organizations who they pose by 260 00:14:29,442 --> 00:14:32,962 Speaker 3: the Naar, now they are controlled by Satanists, their demons. 261 00:14:33,242 --> 00:14:35,042 Speaker 5: I may be wrong about this, but I feel like 262 00:14:35,162 --> 00:14:37,842 Speaker 5: Peter Wagner, he wrote a lot about spiritual warfare and 263 00:14:37,922 --> 00:14:41,442 Speaker 5: demons and stuff. And I've been to churches where like 264 00:14:41,522 --> 00:14:44,922 Speaker 5: the pastor will demon map the city because you know, 265 00:14:44,962 --> 00:14:49,122 Speaker 5: people this movement believe that demonic forces not only can 266 00:14:49,202 --> 00:14:53,882 Speaker 5: control people, but also territories. So like whole city may 267 00:14:53,922 --> 00:14:55,762 Speaker 5: be infested with demons. 268 00:14:55,362 --> 00:14:56,042 Speaker 4: Like their jersey. 269 00:14:56,162 --> 00:14:57,282 Speaker 2: I think we could all agree on that. 270 00:14:58,162 --> 00:15:01,042 Speaker 5: Yeah, the Middle East, obviously, you know, any place is 271 00:15:01,042 --> 00:15:05,522 Speaker 5: not Christian, it's you know, demonic strongholded whatever territories. Washington, 272 00:15:05,602 --> 00:15:05,842 Speaker 5: d C. 273 00:15:06,202 --> 00:15:06,402 Speaker 4: You know. 274 00:15:06,722 --> 00:15:09,522 Speaker 5: Roger Stone caught onto this lingo and was like, oh, 275 00:15:09,562 --> 00:15:12,882 Speaker 5: there's a demon portal over the White house and whatever, 276 00:15:13,202 --> 00:15:16,722 Speaker 5: and there's a whole thing in this world, you know, demonology, 277 00:15:17,482 --> 00:15:20,802 Speaker 5: And so I think that there's like higher level demons 278 00:15:20,842 --> 00:15:24,002 Speaker 5: and lower level demons, like I may just be as 279 00:15:24,042 --> 00:15:30,362 Speaker 5: a reporter working for a secular publication that questioned Trump 280 00:15:30,442 --> 00:15:33,482 Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera in God's plan, Like I may 281 00:15:33,562 --> 00:15:35,802 Speaker 5: just be a dupe. I may just be my mind 282 00:15:35,922 --> 00:15:39,642 Speaker 5: may have been taken over by Satan. But other people 283 00:15:39,802 --> 00:15:44,242 Speaker 5: may be more devoted to the mission, you know what 284 00:15:44,242 --> 00:15:46,682 Speaker 5: I mean. So I think that there's gradations. 285 00:15:46,922 --> 00:15:49,122 Speaker 3: So what I spend a lot of time in Afghanistan 286 00:15:49,282 --> 00:15:52,962 Speaker 3: and interrupt dealing with ISIS and ISIS is a very 287 00:15:52,962 --> 00:15:56,002 Speaker 3: clear answer to that. The answer is that you knowingly 288 00:15:56,082 --> 00:15:58,642 Speaker 3: stand against God. Whether you're controlled by a demon or not. 289 00:15:58,682 --> 00:16:01,562 Speaker 3: They don't get into that, but you knowingly stand against 290 00:16:01,802 --> 00:16:07,002 Speaker 3: what they believe is God's plan, and therefore you, your family, 291 00:16:07,242 --> 00:16:10,122 Speaker 3: anybody who stands with you can and should be killed 292 00:16:10,442 --> 00:16:14,042 Speaker 3: or at least suppressed. So I find what you're saying 293 00:16:14,282 --> 00:16:17,322 Speaker 3: very scary because we've seen it actually in a much 294 00:16:17,322 --> 00:16:22,562 Speaker 3: more further advanced and actually taking place in another area. 295 00:16:22,682 --> 00:16:25,082 Speaker 5: One thing, and I haven't written about this, but I 296 00:16:25,122 --> 00:16:29,362 Speaker 5: find it very interesting that there are military people, high 297 00:16:29,442 --> 00:16:35,722 Speaker 5: Profileish military people who have embraced these ideas. Michael Flynn 298 00:16:36,602 --> 00:16:42,962 Speaker 5: military intelligence, Doug Meis military intelligence, Carol Boykin military intelligence. 299 00:16:43,242 --> 00:16:45,722 Speaker 5: Like I mean, is that just like, oh, well, you know, 300 00:16:45,802 --> 00:16:48,322 Speaker 5: there's a lot of religious beliefs, there's a lot of 301 00:16:48,322 --> 00:16:51,162 Speaker 5: military intelligence people and some of them believe this or 302 00:16:51,682 --> 00:16:53,482 Speaker 5: I don't know, what do you think about that? 303 00:16:53,482 --> 00:16:56,202 Speaker 2: That's a really good question because I wonder to what 304 00:16:56,282 --> 00:16:58,642 Speaker 2: extent these guys believe that when they're inside, and maybe 305 00:16:58,682 --> 00:17:00,922 Speaker 2: they did because it really goes against what they're doing 306 00:17:00,922 --> 00:17:03,242 Speaker 2: in their day to day work, because they work for 307 00:17:03,322 --> 00:17:05,762 Speaker 2: the government. You mentioned that preacher Lance Wallnow you know 308 00:17:05,802 --> 00:17:08,321 Speaker 2: he said you either have God or you've got a government. Well, 309 00:17:08,402 --> 00:17:10,202 Speaker 2: only one person could be supreme, So how do you 310 00:17:10,242 --> 00:17:12,482 Speaker 2: engage with that? How can you be in the US 311 00:17:12,561 --> 00:17:15,121 Speaker 2: government as a military officer and believe that it's just 312 00:17:15,162 --> 00:17:18,442 Speaker 2: people who believe different levels of things. I suppose, and 313 00:17:18,561 --> 00:17:21,321 Speaker 2: Mike Flynn has gotten more and more. I worked with 314 00:17:21,322 --> 00:17:24,121 Speaker 2: Mike Flinn. I know Mike Flynn fairly well where we 315 00:17:24,162 --> 00:17:27,002 Speaker 2: don't get at bred WUS anymore, but he seems like 316 00:17:27,042 --> 00:17:29,482 Speaker 2: he's gotten more and more radical. For I don't know 317 00:17:29,522 --> 00:17:32,162 Speaker 2: whether it's for true religious belief or for its political 318 00:17:32,242 --> 00:17:34,802 Speaker 2: or for its money. Who knows, But yeah, those things 319 00:17:34,842 --> 00:17:36,882 Speaker 2: don't go together. And so I would find out, like 320 00:17:36,922 --> 00:17:40,442 Speaker 2: I did not see that in our intelligence experience. 321 00:17:40,842 --> 00:17:44,602 Speaker 3: So it's CIA. We just talk about various shades of gray. 322 00:17:44,642 --> 00:17:47,442 Speaker 3: There's very little black or white, and in the military, 323 00:17:47,522 --> 00:17:50,161 Speaker 3: because of their mission, it's different, and I think it 324 00:17:50,242 --> 00:17:54,602 Speaker 3: is black or white. That's always the question. Is it delusional? 325 00:17:54,802 --> 00:17:57,922 Speaker 3: Do they believe this stuff? Or are they grifters right 326 00:17:58,002 --> 00:18:01,081 Speaker 3: they're that are making money off of this or opportunists. 327 00:18:01,522 --> 00:18:04,402 Speaker 3: A while ago, there was a it was actually a 328 00:18:04,442 --> 00:18:07,562 Speaker 3: CIA guy who was pushed out of the agency who 329 00:18:07,602 --> 00:18:12,562 Speaker 3: started making these absurd claims that Halian satellites had stolen 330 00:18:12,682 --> 00:18:16,402 Speaker 3: the real results of the twenty twenty elections and that 331 00:18:16,522 --> 00:18:20,242 Speaker 3: people like like Lynn like just started parenting this. And 332 00:18:20,282 --> 00:18:22,482 Speaker 3: what's so crazy is to say that the real results 333 00:18:22,482 --> 00:18:27,202 Speaker 3: were stored in Frankfort in a CIA facility, and that 334 00:18:27,282 --> 00:18:30,442 Speaker 3: the Delta and the Seals were involved in a firefight 335 00:18:30,522 --> 00:18:35,242 Speaker 3: with CIA and Hillary Clinton was caught there and put 336 00:18:35,242 --> 00:18:39,762 Speaker 3: out a mar Bartanamo obey And as crazy as this gets, 337 00:18:40,362 --> 00:18:44,682 Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas's wife took this thing that hit some of 338 00:18:44,722 --> 00:18:47,442 Speaker 3: the people that you're talking about supporting it or elements 339 00:18:47,442 --> 00:18:50,642 Speaker 3: of it, and she wanted to overthrow the twenty twenty 340 00:18:50,682 --> 00:18:51,642 Speaker 3: election results. 341 00:18:51,922 --> 00:18:53,162 Speaker 4: She got to Mark Meadows with this. 342 00:18:53,202 --> 00:18:56,722 Speaker 3: Who gave it to doj So you've got religion, you've 343 00:18:56,762 --> 00:19:00,682 Speaker 3: got conspiracy theories, and you've got people who should be rational. 344 00:19:01,362 --> 00:19:03,722 Speaker 5: I've touched to so many people who believe this stuff, 345 00:19:03,722 --> 00:19:06,922 Speaker 5: and to them it's reality. To the true believers, it's 346 00:19:06,962 --> 00:19:09,842 Speaker 5: of course, they don't see it as conspiracy. They see 347 00:19:09,842 --> 00:19:13,722 Speaker 5: it as as reality. And it's just so deep in a. 348 00:19:13,762 --> 00:19:16,802 Speaker 3: Cult, whether there's a cult leader or not, you can't 349 00:19:16,882 --> 00:19:18,962 Speaker 3: question anything, right, That's sort of one of the things. 350 00:19:18,962 --> 00:19:21,482 Speaker 3: If you can, if you're in the Democratic Party, you 351 00:19:21,522 --> 00:19:23,361 Speaker 3: could say, well, I don't think Joe Biden did that 352 00:19:23,402 --> 00:19:25,722 Speaker 3: great job. You know, he did some good things and 353 00:19:25,762 --> 00:19:27,442 Speaker 3: he fucked up on some other things. 354 00:19:27,522 --> 00:19:29,122 Speaker 4: And with Trump, you're either. 355 00:19:28,962 --> 00:19:31,162 Speaker 3: All in or you're all in, right or with it. No, 356 00:19:31,362 --> 00:19:33,482 Speaker 3: you're either all in or you're all up. So to 357 00:19:33,642 --> 00:19:35,682 Speaker 3: what extent do you think this is getting into cult 358 00:19:35,762 --> 00:19:38,522 Speaker 3: territory where you're not allowed to question any of this. 359 00:19:38,802 --> 00:19:40,842 Speaker 3: You're either all in or you're all out. 360 00:19:41,042 --> 00:19:46,322 Speaker 5: This is really basically an anti Enlightenment movement. Everything went 361 00:19:46,402 --> 00:19:50,642 Speaker 5: wrong when people started trusting their brain rationality. 362 00:19:51,082 --> 00:19:53,442 Speaker 3: It's been all downhill since the fourteen hundreds. 363 00:19:53,442 --> 00:19:56,162 Speaker 5: I just wortge, yeah, yeah, in a very real way. 364 00:19:56,202 --> 00:19:59,162 Speaker 5: And it's like they really think that was the beginning 365 00:19:59,362 --> 00:20:03,321 Speaker 5: of displacing God and replacing God with our own reason 366 00:20:03,802 --> 00:20:08,402 Speaker 5: and so on a really fundamental level, you can't really 367 00:20:08,562 --> 00:20:15,282 Speaker 5: trust your brain unless it is guided by God in 368 00:20:15,322 --> 00:20:18,002 Speaker 5: the Bible. But the other thing about this movement is 369 00:20:18,042 --> 00:20:23,642 Speaker 5: that because they embrace modern day apostles and prophets, they 370 00:20:23,722 --> 00:20:27,882 Speaker 5: have innovated, if you will, the idea that God is 371 00:20:27,962 --> 00:20:34,602 Speaker 5: speaking through prophets. Like now there's new stuff, there's new materials, 372 00:20:35,042 --> 00:20:38,242 Speaker 5: it's not just the Bible anymore. It's also that Dutch 373 00:20:38,282 --> 00:20:44,042 Speaker 5: Sheets had a dream about riding on horseback to the 374 00:20:44,082 --> 00:20:45,762 Speaker 5: Capitol on January sixth. 375 00:20:47,242 --> 00:20:51,561 Speaker 9: This morning, December thirty first, I dreamed I was with 376 00:20:51,602 --> 00:20:55,162 Speaker 9: our prayer team and we were coming back from having 377 00:20:55,202 --> 00:21:01,842 Speaker 9: accomplished an assignment. We were leading tall, muscular horses by 378 00:21:01,882 --> 00:21:06,242 Speaker 9: their bridle reins. Our horses didn't appear to be tired, 379 00:21:06,962 --> 00:21:13,122 Speaker 9: but they were hot and sweaty. We had apparently been 380 00:21:13,202 --> 00:21:18,482 Speaker 9: running them hard. We found ourselves in a field and 381 00:21:18,562 --> 00:21:22,962 Speaker 9: could see out in front of us the US Capitol Building. 382 00:21:23,962 --> 00:21:28,082 Speaker 9: We mounted our horses and as we sat looking at 383 00:21:28,082 --> 00:21:33,442 Speaker 9: the building, we heard air sirens going off. As the 384 00:21:33,522 --> 00:21:37,962 Speaker 9: sirens were sounding, we saw a huge hand come down 385 00:21:38,042 --> 00:21:42,361 Speaker 9: from the sky and take hold of the dome of 386 00:21:42,482 --> 00:21:46,162 Speaker 9: the Capitol Building. With the fingers of the hand wrapped 387 00:21:46,242 --> 00:21:51,361 Speaker 9: around the dome, the thumb of the hand flicked the 388 00:21:51,442 --> 00:21:57,282 Speaker 9: dome open. When it was opened, a very thick black 389 00:21:57,682 --> 00:22:02,442 Speaker 9: smoke began rising up out of the building. We then 390 00:22:02,562 --> 00:22:08,282 Speaker 9: heard a cavalry bugle playing the signal to charge, and 391 00:22:08,362 --> 00:22:12,842 Speaker 9: we began moving toward the Capitol, not at a full gallop, 392 00:22:13,202 --> 00:22:18,642 Speaker 9: but at a steady, determined, fast trot. As we started 393 00:22:19,282 --> 00:22:23,282 Speaker 9: on the ground in front of us, written in white 394 00:22:23,402 --> 00:22:29,802 Speaker 9: letters for the words don't stop. That's the end of 395 00:22:29,882 --> 00:22:31,442 Speaker 9: the dream, Happy New Year. 396 00:22:32,282 --> 00:22:35,042 Speaker 3: Not need the Jesus guy anymore, right, because you've got 397 00:22:35,362 --> 00:22:36,202 Speaker 3: modern day profits. 398 00:22:36,282 --> 00:22:38,922 Speaker 5: I mean, it's interesting. I don't really speak a lot 399 00:22:38,922 --> 00:22:42,002 Speaker 5: about Jesus, honestly, And what they do is they speak 400 00:22:42,002 --> 00:22:45,042 Speaker 5: a lot about the Old Testament a lot, and they 401 00:22:45,122 --> 00:22:49,842 Speaker 5: also have fresh words. I have a fresh dream today, 402 00:22:50,042 --> 00:22:52,762 Speaker 5: and the fresh dream is I had a vision that 403 00:22:52,802 --> 00:22:58,442 Speaker 5: Trump was going to take over Gaza. So there's this constant, hourly, daily, 404 00:22:58,722 --> 00:23:04,242 Speaker 5: weekly scroll of prophecies. That's where it starts to get 405 00:23:04,562 --> 00:23:08,322 Speaker 5: to be more about a person a personality. And then 406 00:23:08,482 --> 00:23:12,121 Speaker 5: that obviously coupled with you're not supposed to trust your mind. 407 00:23:12,602 --> 00:23:16,162 Speaker 5: There's an idea of submissions admission to God. If you 408 00:23:16,202 --> 00:23:19,042 Speaker 5: go to any of these churches, they'll often talk about 409 00:23:19,082 --> 00:23:22,882 Speaker 5: that it's very emotional. I'm sure you've been in charismatic 410 00:23:23,002 --> 00:23:25,962 Speaker 5: Christian churches and a lot of people have that these 411 00:23:26,082 --> 00:23:29,002 Speaker 5: churches are like that on steroids. Like the music is 412 00:23:29,042 --> 00:23:31,882 Speaker 5: really really loud. The ones that have the most money 413 00:23:31,922 --> 00:23:35,561 Speaker 5: they have these professional sound systems and lights and just 414 00:23:35,682 --> 00:23:39,602 Speaker 5: pounding and the music is mantra like and there's tears. 415 00:23:39,642 --> 00:23:43,122 Speaker 5: It's very free, oddly again like a paradox because you're 416 00:23:43,122 --> 00:23:46,602 Speaker 5: supposed to think a certain thing and yet it's very 417 00:23:46,802 --> 00:23:50,802 Speaker 5: physically free. So it feels good and there's like a 418 00:23:50,802 --> 00:23:52,881 Speaker 5: lot of feeling to it, you know, and a lot 419 00:23:52,922 --> 00:23:57,361 Speaker 5: of catharsists. But make no mistake, but you're supposed to 420 00:23:57,562 --> 00:24:01,122 Speaker 5: submit to this and submit to this idea and submit 421 00:24:01,162 --> 00:24:04,361 Speaker 5: to God. And what is God? God is these things 422 00:24:04,402 --> 00:24:05,522 Speaker 5: and et cetera. 423 00:24:05,882 --> 00:24:08,522 Speaker 2: It's an interesting historical time because if you go back 424 00:24:08,522 --> 00:24:11,282 Speaker 2: into the nineteenth century, even late eighteenth century, but the 425 00:24:11,322 --> 00:24:13,642 Speaker 2: first grade Awakening in this country, I mean, the Puritans 426 00:24:13,642 --> 00:24:16,322 Speaker 2: came and they were very focused on rationality and learning, 427 00:24:16,842 --> 00:24:18,962 Speaker 2: formed Harvard University and these other type of things. And 428 00:24:19,002 --> 00:24:21,802 Speaker 2: then when the first great Awakening came is the personal 429 00:24:21,882 --> 00:24:24,562 Speaker 2: relationship to God and the beginning of the evangelical sort 430 00:24:24,562 --> 00:24:26,482 Speaker 2: of spirit in the United States. And so it almost 431 00:24:26,482 --> 00:24:29,442 Speaker 2: seems like there must be a schism in Christianity. This 432 00:24:29,482 --> 00:24:33,002 Speaker 2: can't be something that's supported really by the Catholic Church 433 00:24:33,082 --> 00:24:35,762 Speaker 2: or other parts of the Protestant Church. How is it 434 00:24:35,802 --> 00:24:38,202 Speaker 2: that this is gaining ground in those other and in 435 00:24:38,242 --> 00:24:40,242 Speaker 2: general people are moving away from religion. 436 00:24:40,482 --> 00:24:43,482 Speaker 5: I've gotten emails from readers. A reader who's part of 437 00:24:43,522 --> 00:24:46,442 Speaker 5: a Lutheran church, and she said that it started as 438 00:24:46,482 --> 00:24:48,321 Speaker 5: a study group in the church and then it was 439 00:24:48,362 --> 00:24:50,802 Speaker 5: a Seven Mountains thing, and then pretty soon like these 440 00:24:50,842 --> 00:24:54,402 Speaker 5: ideas were starting to overtake the church. And it does 441 00:24:54,482 --> 00:24:58,442 Speaker 5: cause sometimes splits in churches. And these ideas you will 442 00:24:58,442 --> 00:25:02,242 Speaker 5: find them in many denominational churches. And yeah, and some 443 00:25:02,282 --> 00:25:04,561 Speaker 5: people are like, what is this? This is weird? I 444 00:25:04,602 --> 00:25:08,002 Speaker 5: think this is heretical. You know, it doesn't always go overwell, 445 00:25:08,322 --> 00:25:11,202 Speaker 5: but I think that it seems to be overtaking a 446 00:25:11,202 --> 00:25:14,522 Speaker 5: lot of denominational churches. There are people who have needs 447 00:25:14,562 --> 00:25:19,082 Speaker 5: who go there. Churches have soup kitchens and food pantries 448 00:25:19,242 --> 00:25:24,402 Speaker 5: and drug addiction programs and porn addiction programs, and people 449 00:25:24,602 --> 00:25:27,882 Speaker 5: find everything that they find in real churches. They find 450 00:25:28,002 --> 00:25:29,922 Speaker 5: help and guidance in a community. 451 00:25:30,002 --> 00:25:35,282 Speaker 3: And so, putting your sociology in what need is this fulfilling? 452 00:25:35,442 --> 00:25:40,322 Speaker 3: It offers simplicity, I guess it offers you understand your 453 00:25:40,322 --> 00:25:44,562 Speaker 3: place in the world. It offers you a hero's journey. 454 00:25:44,642 --> 00:25:46,242 Speaker 4: You know, you can be just like isis. 455 00:25:46,282 --> 00:25:49,802 Speaker 3: You can be a soldier of God, or you could 456 00:25:49,842 --> 00:25:50,561 Speaker 3: be a sheep. 457 00:25:50,322 --> 00:25:51,602 Speaker 4: Farmer, or you know whatever. 458 00:25:51,842 --> 00:25:54,522 Speaker 2: Jerry and I both lived in Muslim countries and we've 459 00:25:54,522 --> 00:25:57,082 Speaker 2: seen similar things happening there, whereas you know, if you're 460 00:25:57,082 --> 00:26:00,362 Speaker 2: in Indonesia, Afghanistan and Rock you know, twenty thirty forty 461 00:26:00,442 --> 00:26:03,482 Speaker 2: years ago they were not as conservative. Is this a 462 00:26:03,522 --> 00:26:06,082 Speaker 2: global thing that people are moving and moving more away 463 00:26:06,122 --> 00:26:07,242 Speaker 2: from secular society? 464 00:26:07,482 --> 00:26:09,722 Speaker 5: What need is it fulfilling? I mean, I think that's 465 00:26:09,722 --> 00:26:12,522 Speaker 5: a fine question. Maybe it's just the need that any 466 00:26:12,562 --> 00:26:15,962 Speaker 5: religion fills. It's just that it's doing in this different way, 467 00:26:16,402 --> 00:26:19,042 Speaker 5: and it's more complete, like you said, because it does 468 00:26:19,522 --> 00:26:23,562 Speaker 5: give people a purpose. It's like, here are your marching orders. 469 00:26:23,882 --> 00:26:27,402 Speaker 5: It's not just Sunday, it's every day. It's seven mountains, 470 00:26:27,722 --> 00:26:30,642 Speaker 5: get with the program, figure out your purpose in life. 471 00:26:31,282 --> 00:26:36,482 Speaker 5: And their courses and seminars and trainings and everything. It's 472 00:26:36,562 --> 00:26:38,601 Speaker 5: twenty four to seven. And that's also what makes it 473 00:26:38,602 --> 00:26:42,802 Speaker 5: effective politically, because people are constantly organizing. It's not just 474 00:26:42,962 --> 00:26:46,081 Speaker 5: every four years, every two years. It's like this is 475 00:26:46,122 --> 00:26:51,242 Speaker 5: a constant movement. It's always happening, always going on. 476 00:26:52,002 --> 00:26:53,282 Speaker 2: We'll be back in just a moment. 477 00:27:03,642 --> 00:27:06,122 Speaker 3: In a natural part of the fracturing of our society 478 00:27:06,202 --> 00:27:09,002 Speaker 3: is more and more people become secular and their religion 479 00:27:09,202 --> 00:27:13,121 Speaker 3: is none. Those that still something within the needs of 480 00:27:13,122 --> 00:27:14,642 Speaker 3: faith that become more radical. 481 00:27:15,042 --> 00:27:15,642 Speaker 4: I'm assumed. 482 00:27:16,162 --> 00:27:18,162 Speaker 5: I wrote about a woman who was in this movement, 483 00:27:18,602 --> 00:27:20,561 Speaker 5: and if you talk to her, she would say she 484 00:27:20,642 --> 00:27:24,322 Speaker 5: hates religion, she would say she hates church, and yet 485 00:27:24,362 --> 00:27:27,402 Speaker 5: she follows all these prophets. I think there's a sense 486 00:27:27,522 --> 00:27:30,882 Speaker 5: among the people who follow this thing that they're the 487 00:27:31,002 --> 00:27:35,162 Speaker 5: true everything else has screwed up Christianity. It has screwed up, 488 00:27:35,562 --> 00:27:36,202 Speaker 5: screwed it up. 489 00:27:36,282 --> 00:27:37,321 Speaker 4: They're the t clergy. 490 00:27:37,522 --> 00:27:41,121 Speaker 5: Yeah, they've all divided and all these little arguments, so 491 00:27:41,282 --> 00:27:45,002 Speaker 5: you know, angels on pinheads and whatever like. These people 492 00:27:45,002 --> 00:27:48,202 Speaker 5: think that, oh, we're the real you know, we're open 493 00:27:48,242 --> 00:27:51,722 Speaker 5: to the Holy Spirit moving. It's very mystical. It's very 494 00:27:51,802 --> 00:27:55,242 Speaker 5: empowering really if you think about it, because they also believe, 495 00:27:55,282 --> 00:27:59,482 Speaker 5: you know, you can fight a war spiritual warfare, you're powerful. 496 00:27:59,762 --> 00:28:02,882 Speaker 5: And then look at January sixth. I mean, people really 497 00:28:03,082 --> 00:28:08,442 Speaker 5: missed this dimension of the insurrection, but there were people 498 00:28:08,522 --> 00:28:13,002 Speaker 5: outside in this movement doing spiritual warfare. Matthew Taylor's written 499 00:28:13,042 --> 00:28:16,882 Speaker 5: an excellent book about this. Dutch Sheets was traveling the 500 00:28:16,922 --> 00:28:21,522 Speaker 5: country rallying people after the twenty twenty election and preparing 501 00:28:21,602 --> 00:28:24,922 Speaker 5: people and visited the White House and people had different motivations, 502 00:28:24,962 --> 00:28:27,442 Speaker 5: but a lot of them thought that they were taking 503 00:28:27,482 --> 00:28:30,881 Speaker 5: the capital for God, for the kingdom. And what did 504 00:28:30,922 --> 00:28:33,402 Speaker 5: they do when they got to the rotunda? These people 505 00:28:33,482 --> 00:28:37,162 Speaker 5: they prayed, they prayed, some of them did, and they 506 00:28:37,162 --> 00:28:38,442 Speaker 5: had the flags and it's. 507 00:28:38,322 --> 00:28:41,562 Speaker 3: Cool though it's if the democratic right, it's against the constitution. 508 00:28:42,202 --> 00:28:45,082 Speaker 3: They don't want separtial church and state. They don't support 509 00:28:45,082 --> 00:28:50,042 Speaker 3: democratic values. Only the people of God right get to them, right. 510 00:28:50,082 --> 00:28:51,362 Speaker 4: They want a theocracy. 511 00:28:51,522 --> 00:28:54,242 Speaker 5: At the end of the day, they would say democracy 512 00:28:54,282 --> 00:28:58,922 Speaker 5: cannot flourish without a Christian conscience. Christianity has to flourish, 513 00:28:59,282 --> 00:29:03,282 Speaker 5: but people aren't able to govern themselves without this conscience, 514 00:29:03,882 --> 00:29:04,842 Speaker 5: Christian conscience. 515 00:29:05,042 --> 00:29:06,122 Speaker 4: That's what communism was. 516 00:29:06,202 --> 00:29:09,482 Speaker 3: It was like everybody, as long as you follow Lenin's dictates, 517 00:29:09,522 --> 00:29:11,482 Speaker 3: you can like disagree inside. 518 00:29:11,562 --> 00:29:13,722 Speaker 4: But at the end of there was. 519 00:29:13,922 --> 00:29:17,442 Speaker 2: A book by Jack So that JD. Vance endorsed that 520 00:29:17,522 --> 00:29:20,962 Speaker 2: describes their political opponents as unhumans and that they must 521 00:29:21,002 --> 00:29:23,402 Speaker 2: be crushed on humans must be crushed. Is that a 522 00:29:23,442 --> 00:29:25,042 Speaker 2: book that spreads in this group. 523 00:29:25,202 --> 00:29:29,402 Speaker 5: Well, I mentioned that I mentioned that book in the 524 00:29:29,562 --> 00:29:32,762 Speaker 5: in the story because to me, it was an example 525 00:29:33,162 --> 00:29:36,722 Speaker 5: of how the Seven Mountains idea and this idea of 526 00:29:37,202 --> 00:29:42,922 Speaker 5: overturning this liberal order, how far that idea has seemed. 527 00:29:43,202 --> 00:29:45,842 Speaker 5: He didn't refer to the Seven Mountains, but there was 528 00:29:45,882 --> 00:29:48,642 Speaker 5: a part in the book where he essentially was referring 529 00:29:48,722 --> 00:29:49,802 Speaker 5: to the Seven Mountains. 530 00:29:49,962 --> 00:29:53,722 Speaker 3: That's very fascist, right, making the other subhuman. That was 531 00:29:54,162 --> 00:29:57,002 Speaker 3: part of Nazi ideology. And this also brings us to 532 00:29:57,202 --> 00:30:00,002 Speaker 3: this guy Beattie who's now at State Department, senior at 533 00:30:00,002 --> 00:30:02,882 Speaker 3: the State Department, whose writings have come out recently where 534 00:30:02,882 --> 00:30:06,282 Speaker 3: he said that only good people, smart people should be 535 00:30:06,322 --> 00:30:10,402 Speaker 3: allowed to have children, right and low iq trash should 536 00:30:10,402 --> 00:30:12,682 Speaker 3: not have There should be eugenics, they should be youth 537 00:30:12,762 --> 00:30:14,882 Speaker 3: to them. But he also brings it in as basically 538 00:30:15,002 --> 00:30:18,642 Speaker 3: Christians need to like have kids white Christians. And this 539 00:30:18,722 --> 00:30:20,842 Speaker 3: is a guy who's now sitting in the State Department 540 00:30:21,162 --> 00:30:24,642 Speaker 3: and mirroring this thing that the world is filled with 541 00:30:24,762 --> 00:30:29,922 Speaker 3: unhumans and we're not worthy of basic rights to have 542 00:30:30,122 --> 00:30:31,962 Speaker 3: families or to speak out. 543 00:30:32,162 --> 00:30:35,962 Speaker 5: This thing gets conflated with what has been, i think 544 00:30:36,082 --> 00:30:40,722 Speaker 5: personally rather vaguely called Christian nationalism, which I think doesn't 545 00:30:40,762 --> 00:30:44,242 Speaker 5: really do justice to the depth of what this movement 546 00:30:44,362 --> 00:30:47,762 Speaker 5: is all about. And it's worth just noting briefly that 547 00:30:48,162 --> 00:30:52,642 Speaker 5: Christian nationalism would say, oh, the founding fathers actually were Christian, 548 00:30:52,762 --> 00:30:55,442 Speaker 5: and they point to all this evidence so to speak, 549 00:30:55,602 --> 00:30:59,122 Speaker 5: of why our nation was founded as a Christian nation. 550 00:30:59,602 --> 00:31:03,482 Speaker 5: These people, again, the more serious thinkers, think that the 551 00:31:03,522 --> 00:31:08,402 Speaker 5: founding fathers screwed it up, actually, and that the real 552 00:31:08,802 --> 00:31:14,082 Speaker 5: origins go back to William Penn in Pennsylvania, and there's 553 00:31:14,122 --> 00:31:18,362 Speaker 5: this whole story about William Penn who came over and 554 00:31:18,482 --> 00:31:21,162 Speaker 5: God gave him a vision and the US was the 555 00:31:21,162 --> 00:31:23,642 Speaker 5: seceed of a nation and that he had a covenant 556 00:31:23,642 --> 00:31:27,282 Speaker 5: with God. And I mean, there's a whole different origin story, 557 00:31:27,402 --> 00:31:30,322 Speaker 5: is what I'm saying with this movement, and has to 558 00:31:30,362 --> 00:31:34,842 Speaker 5: do with Native Americans. Their whole concept of what gave 559 00:31:34,922 --> 00:31:37,562 Speaker 5: rise to this country is different than like your more 560 00:31:37,602 --> 00:31:42,882 Speaker 5: typical sort of sentimental Christian nationalism stuff. So they would 561 00:31:42,922 --> 00:31:46,562 Speaker 5: say that the Washington Monument is a pagan symbol and 562 00:31:46,962 --> 00:31:49,722 Speaker 5: Jefferson messed it up and et cetera. 563 00:31:50,082 --> 00:31:52,722 Speaker 2: And if they've decided that the rest of us are 564 00:31:53,242 --> 00:31:55,642 Speaker 2: devils or Satan's, I don't know how you push back 565 00:31:55,682 --> 00:31:58,042 Speaker 2: against that. And I worry that you know that that 566 00:31:58,082 --> 00:32:00,962 Speaker 2: Trump people know that they need this support, and they 567 00:32:01,202 --> 00:32:03,482 Speaker 2: clearly believe some of these things that Jerry and I 568 00:32:03,562 --> 00:32:05,482 Speaker 2: know to not be true about a deep state and 569 00:32:05,522 --> 00:32:09,002 Speaker 2: then working against Christians and working against the president and 570 00:32:09,042 --> 00:32:11,042 Speaker 2: all these types of things. And you can see by 571 00:32:11,082 --> 00:32:13,762 Speaker 2: some of the actions recently things that you might have 572 00:32:13,802 --> 00:32:18,082 Speaker 2: thought were just popular politician stuff where you create enemies 573 00:32:18,082 --> 00:32:21,602 Speaker 2: to win power. They're taking action that suggests that they 574 00:32:21,682 --> 00:32:24,482 Speaker 2: believed some of these things. Firing all those FBI people 575 00:32:24,962 --> 00:32:28,562 Speaker 2: destroying the state, are destroying USAID, destroying the CIA, these 576 00:32:28,602 --> 00:32:31,482 Speaker 2: type of things. And so this is really an important 577 00:32:31,642 --> 00:32:34,282 Speaker 2: issue to understand because it's something we're gonna have to 578 00:32:34,282 --> 00:32:34,922 Speaker 2: come to terms with. 579 00:32:35,442 --> 00:32:39,562 Speaker 5: They are serious about their project. I can't say I 580 00:32:39,642 --> 00:32:43,482 Speaker 5: completely understand. There seems to be this sort of union 581 00:32:43,922 --> 00:32:48,562 Speaker 5: between some libertarian thinkers and this movement. And I don't 582 00:32:48,562 --> 00:32:52,242 Speaker 5: know if it's a temporary alliance of convenience because they 583 00:32:52,362 --> 00:32:56,522 Speaker 5: both wish to tear down the state in a way. 584 00:32:56,722 --> 00:32:58,922 Speaker 5: But you know, I thought it was very interesting that 585 00:32:59,242 --> 00:33:01,962 Speaker 5: must Elon Musk, of all the places he could go, 586 00:33:02,882 --> 00:33:07,402 Speaker 5: he went to an nar type church in Harrisburg. I 587 00:33:07,402 --> 00:33:09,962 Speaker 5: don't know, maybe it was just a venue. But they 588 00:33:10,042 --> 00:33:13,562 Speaker 5: call Peter Thiel a lot people in this movement, So 589 00:33:14,162 --> 00:33:16,682 Speaker 5: I don't know, that's a whole other dimension that has 590 00:33:16,922 --> 00:33:20,402 Speaker 5: yet to be explored. I was, I'll mention one thing. 591 00:33:20,442 --> 00:33:23,242 Speaker 5: I was at Life Center right after the election. They 592 00:33:23,282 --> 00:33:26,482 Speaker 5: had an apostle speaking there. He was a guest actually, 593 00:33:26,562 --> 00:33:29,562 Speaker 5: and the mood was obviously, you know, very celebratory. They 594 00:33:29,602 --> 00:33:31,562 Speaker 5: really saw this as something that they had brought about 595 00:33:31,682 --> 00:33:34,802 Speaker 5: through their voting but also through prayer. And so it was. 596 00:33:35,162 --> 00:33:38,202 Speaker 5: That was the mood up until one point where the speaker, 597 00:33:38,842 --> 00:33:41,962 Speaker 5: found seemingly out of the blue, started talking about immigration, 598 00:33:42,242 --> 00:33:44,842 Speaker 5: and he said, could it be that all these people 599 00:33:44,882 --> 00:33:47,642 Speaker 5: coming across the border are actually the harvest? 600 00:33:47,762 --> 00:33:47,922 Speaker 2: You know? 601 00:33:48,002 --> 00:33:50,522 Speaker 5: Are they part of God's harvest? Is God is sending 602 00:33:50,602 --> 00:33:53,802 Speaker 5: them here to us rather than sending us out into 603 00:33:53,882 --> 00:33:56,722 Speaker 5: the world. And he didn't stay on it very long, 604 00:33:56,882 --> 00:34:00,202 Speaker 5: but it sounded like a little bit of dissent, perhaps 605 00:34:00,322 --> 00:34:03,882 Speaker 5: from the Trump agenda, and I thought that was pretty interesting. 606 00:34:04,282 --> 00:34:06,682 Speaker 2: Well, I'd like to say, Stephanie, I thank you for 607 00:34:06,722 --> 00:34:09,201 Speaker 2: being with us, and it's really interesting stuff, but it 608 00:34:09,201 --> 00:34:13,802 Speaker 2: doesn't lead me warm and fuzzy. 609 00:34:17,602 --> 00:34:22,681 Speaker 7: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Ceipher, 610 00:34:22,962 --> 00:34:24,282 Speaker 7: and Jonathan Stern. 611 00:34:24,442 --> 00:34:26,762 Speaker 4: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 612 00:34:27,042 --> 00:34:30,842 Speaker 7: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 613 00:34:30,882 --> 00:34:32,841 Speaker 7: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.