WEBVTT - #319 Jason Flom with Terrence Hobbs 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.120 It was the summer of nineteen ninety six in Portsmouth, Virginia, 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.719 and Terence Hobbs had just started dating Devana Byers, a 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:11.840 young woman who shared a five year old daughter with 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.880 one of the biggest drug dealers in town. When the 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.439 FBI pressed Devanna about aiding her ex with money laundering, 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.959 she agreed to testify against him in his federal drug charges, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:27.080 planning to skip town afterward. Devanna and Terry's budding romance 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.080 fizzled as a result. On July twentieth, nineteen ninety six, 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.320 shortly after her testimony, the bodies of Devana Buyers and 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.120 another lover, Leon Porter, were discovered, having both been shot 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.240 once in the head. Investigators immediately honed it on Terry Hobbs, 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.159 Divana's most recent X, but with no physical evidence to 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.080 corroborate the theory, the case went cold. As the summer 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.280 wound down, a bank robbery occurred in nearby Virginia Beach. 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.920 While facing unrelated charges, an old junior high acquaintance of Terry's, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.240 Eric Cook, alleged that he had called Terry from jail 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.200 and that Terry had confessed to both the bank robbery 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.520 and the July double homicide. At the bank robbery trial, 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.200 the bank teller and another employee corroborated Eric Cook, which 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.600 must have meant that Terry's fingerprints had just been missed 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.320 by the crime scene technicians. At the double homicide trial, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.520 five witnesses facing their own criminal charges painted Terry as 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.720 a jealous ex boyfriend. But they couldn't possibly all be lying, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.959 especially about a convicted arm bank robber. But this is 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:49.560 wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today we have 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.240 a first on this program, a double wrongful conviction. Now 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.280 Terrence Hobbs was convicted of a bank robbery and then 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.040 a completely separate double homicide, both of which he had 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.000 nothing to do with. Terry joined us from not Away 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.960 Correctional Facility in Virginia. Terrence, Welcome to wrongful conviction. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:06.360 Thank you for having me. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.840 Yeah, you're very welcome and joining us as a man 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.639 who knew Terry on the inside. He himself was rightfully 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:14.560 convicted for a string of robberies in the nineties in 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.800 which no one got hurt and the proceeds amounted to 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.880 around five hundred and eleven dollars. But I think it's 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.600 fair to say that you were over sentenced having received 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.519 a grand total of get this one thousand, three hundred 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.800 and ten years. Governor mccauliffe granted him a conditional pardon 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:36.000 back in twenty eighteen, and Lenny has been fighting to 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.920 clear Terry ever since. Lenny Singleton, welcome to the show. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:42.720 Thank you, glad to be here. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.280 Very glad to have you, and also here with us 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.760 as someone who's been fighting for Terry the longest. His mother, 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.639 Catherine Hobbs, thank you from the bottom of my heart 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.360 for joining us and very courageously sharing today. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.480 You're welcome, happy to be here now. 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.760 These crimes took place in two cities that are close 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:01.920 to one another. There was a bank robbery in Virginia 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.600 Beach In about a month before that, there was a 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:09.040 double homicide in which the departed were a woman named 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.920 Devana Byers, who was the mother of a drug kingpin's 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.480 daughter and her new lover, Leon Porter, a man who 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.640 was in possession of a very large amount of cocaine. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.600 So you know, maybe he was a competing dealer. We 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.800 don't know, but it doesn't seem far fetched. So the 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:31.000 homicide portion of this is certainly touching that world. In Portsmouth, Virginia, now, Lenny, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.160 when you were in the military before your conviction, you 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:35.560 were stationed in Virginia. Right. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:40.240 Remember, Portsmouth, Virginia was like one of the heroin capitals 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.720 of the world, this country anyway, and they were known 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.360 for corruption. Every time I opened the paper back in 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:52.000 the nineties, there was always some issue about corruption in Portsmouth. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.240 Right, and Terry, you grew up there, so could you 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.640 or maybe Ms. Hobbs if you want to jump in 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.360 here too, could you tell us about your life growing up. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.120 On August nineteen seventy in the city of Portsmouth, Virginia 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.040 to a upper middle class black family. Pretty much had 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.080 a typical childhood, I guess you could say it. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:10.280 So. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.120 I was diagnosed with dyslexia and very greed and. 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.240 He was very self conscious about that. They said he 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.520 had above average intelligence, but he had the reading problem. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.440 And at the time they didn't know how to help 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.800 students with that reading problem. So they put in a 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.000 special education in which you get a certificate. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:33.440 You do not get us the thumba. 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.400 We come from a military family, and he wanted to 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.719 go so much with that certificate, he was not able 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:40.080 to go. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.719 And your military upbringing brought you in touch with guns, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.200 and you owned several legal firearms, all of which were 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.440 being stored out of your possession at the time of 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.000 the crime. But even the fact that you owned firearms 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.520 at all was eventually used against you, even though none 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.400 of your guns could be connected to the crimes were 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.960 about to discuss here, But let's get back to Terry's childhood. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.240 I started working at an early age. I got a 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.200 job at food line at age sixteen and worked all 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:10.200 through high school at food line. After the food line, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.200 my cousin got me a job with him working at 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.760 the shipyard. Unfortunately, I got laid off, and at one 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.320 point in time I did get involved in selling drugs 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.520 on a very small level, but I never got arristed 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.839 for it, and then after I was able to get 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.720 my career back on track, I walked away from it. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.960 And you'll get no judgment from me about being involved 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:35.760 in drugs. But that, along with the love of motorcycles, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.839 did bring you into contact with a crowd of people 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.960 who later went on to help frame you in exchange 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.039 for leniency in their own very serious cases. But in 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.960 the lead up to these two incidents, you were gainfully 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.520 employed at the Coast Guard based shipyard. Now, I want 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.000 to go back to your time at food Line during 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.280 high school. You worked there for a short while with 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.480 one of the victims in this case, right, Devana Byers. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.479 Is that where the two of you first met. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.680 I met Devana Bias in junior high school and we 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.880 pretty much hung with different crowd. She was always extremely beautiful, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.840 extremely popular, being laid on. She worked at food Lye 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:18.560 with me for maybe three months, and I probably didn't 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.680 see her again until I was about twenty five years old. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.159 And at that time you two became romantically involved, but 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.320 that unfortunately got cut short, most likely by the circumstances 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.680 in her life surrounding the father of her five year 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.120 old daughter, Kia, a man named Nathaniel Skeete Richardson who 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.680 was a major player in the Portsmouth drug game and 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.480 was under federal indictment at the time. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.120 But before he got his federal drug indictment, he had 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.800 a long list of charges, a lot of them violent. 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.719 Even one of the charges was the shooting death of 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.360 his girlfriend an unborn child, and he went on to 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.520 getting out on a knee and the dollar lond. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.720 So this is a young guy who's already a suspect 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.799 in the killing of the mother of his unborn child. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.640 And he's got a lot of money. He probably paid 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.080 one hundred thousand cash on that million dollars to get 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.960 himself out. Maybe he put up the whole million, I 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.680 don't know, but one way another he was loaded. He 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.800 was making more money in a month than most of 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.160 the police officers were making in the year at that 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:29.040 time back in Portsmouth, so clearly, had he chosen to 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.960 he had more than enough money to corrupt a local 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.120 officer into giving him a pass or even offering him 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:38.560 protection from the law. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.160 Possibly, I wouldn't be surprised. Back in those days, not 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:46.320 with Portsmouth. It wasn't uncommon for police to be on payrolls, 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.680 especially he's drug kingpins back in those days. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.000 From what I understand, at twenty two or twenty three 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.200 years olds, Keith Richardson had so much money that he 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.320 had developed a money laundering scheme involving there which is 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.800 a trade of expensive cars, and one of those trades 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.320 involved Divana and eventually the FEDS approached her, threatening her 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.360 with money laundering chargers if she didn't cooperate in their 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.480 prosecution of Skeete Richardson, who was under federal indictment for 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.080 a laundry list of drug charges, conspiracy, et cetera. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.760 I told her I felt like considering the people that 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.600 they were asking her to talk about and testify against, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.600 I didn't think it was in her best interest. And 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.880 I told her, you know, the moneyliner in charges that 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.640 considered white collar crimes, you may do two or three 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.240 years and you can start your life over. She wasn't 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.920 interested in hearing it. She wasn't trying to do a 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:37.560 single day. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.040 It was that decision to testify against him that was 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.400 more than likely what led to her death. So she 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.440 was subpoena to appear in court, and she did. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.480 And then what happened About a week or two before 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.320 she was killed, she went to either Mississippi or Alabama, 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.840 or to spend some time with family down there. And 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.600 after she came back, she asked me if I would 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:03.040 be willing to move with her to Mississippi or Alabama 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.600 after she finished cooperating with the FBI. And I'm be 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.520 honest with you, I considered it when I didn't want 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.160 to have to leave my home under those circumstances. I 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:14.600 don't had nothing to do with it. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.720 So at this point even though you two were still 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.040 occasionally sleeping together, you had created some distance between you 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.600 and Devanna, hardly the actions of a jealous boyfriend, as 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.559 the state would later paint you when you were prosecuted 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.680 for what happened in the aftermath of her testimony in 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.080 this federal drug trial. So let's get to that. This 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.559 was the night of July nineteenth into the twentieth of 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.239 nineteen ninety six, just two weeks after she had testified 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.040 against her baby's father, who was, of course the drug kingpin. 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.560 Now apparently she had been with her parents earlier that evening, 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.480 went home with her five year old daughter, Kia, and 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.439 a man named Leon Face Porter. That was his nickname. Face. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.400 Kia had gone to bed. Then around midnight, an ear 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.440 witness her gunshots. Around four am. Kia called her grandfather 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.960 after discuss her mother and mister Porter were dead. Police 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.760 found that the outside door and apartment door had been 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.840 busted open. Divana was found by the foot of the bed, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.640 shot in the back of the head. Mister Porter was 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.680 found lying on the bed and he had been shot 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.560 in the face, as if he had been sitting on 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.040 the edge of the bed when he was shot. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.440 I woke up to my page of going off back 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.439 to back to back to back to back. The ruma 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.960 was that Divonna and I had gotten murdered. Once they 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.000 found out that I hadn't gotten killed, because the nature 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.920 of our relationship where we were still sleeping with each 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.240 other from time to time, I became a suspect. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.520 They tried to say it was a crime of passion 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.560 a jealous boyfriend, but those two people were shot execution 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.360 style only once. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.240 And they'd know that she'd just testified against the biggest 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:46.960 drug dealer in Portsmouth. 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:52.440 Virginia, right even though Divana's baby's father, Nathaniel Skeete Richardson, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.160 was the logical suspect. They pursued Terry anyway. But you 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.560 had seen a movie with your sister the night before, 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.280 then went to your parents' house to pick up some 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.199 mail before spending the night at your sister's, And when 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.600 you woke up to your page er just blowing up, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.360 you called some friends, found out what had happened, and 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.679 you and your sister went to Divanda's parents' house. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.360 Can I agreed to talk to the police, and at 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.559 some point in time, Detective Huntington and Detective beach Look 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:18.760 showed up at Divanna's house. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.640 So they asked you to accompany them to the detectives 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.920 Euroa and you were, I would say, as cooperative as 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.240 you possibly could be. At first, you know. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.599 Asked me a few questions, asked me about my whereabouts 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.520 that they and then they got around to ask me 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.760 if I owned any firearms, which I told him I 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.959 did and gave him a list of the firearms. They 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.400 asked me if I had any problem with them running 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.640 ballistics tests on them. I had the guns they delivered 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.440 to the police department, I can send into the gunshot 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:48.640 residue tests, right. 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:53.520 They tested his guns, they tested his fingerprints. Nothing matched. 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.040 They asked me if I had any problem taking a 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.000 lot of detective tests, which I did and at the. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.800 Time, yeah, agreed to the light detective test. And you 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.760 also told him where he could find your other firearm 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.760 at the Portsmouth Big Tackle and Pawn shop. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.959 Detective Huntington went there to try to retrieve my block 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.120 from the shop, and I think the lady's name was 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.559 Kathleen half Cock, and he told her personally that he 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.960 was there to get my gun because it was used 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.280 in a murder. Luckily, she had the presence of mind 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.960 to ask when did the murders take place? After he 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.320 told her when the murders took place, she told him 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.240 that it was no way possible that weapon could have 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.560 been used and that crime because they had been hi 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.680 the shop prior to the crime taking place. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.800 So it seems that Detective Huntington had already pretty much 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.920 decided that you were the focus of his investigation, despite 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.000 the fact that you had been cooperative. There was nothing 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.240 that was a match for you. They're alibizing, there was 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.880 nothing that pointed in your direction anyway. You started getting 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:51.439 wind of this. 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.480 Right Detective Huntington at one point in time, he actually 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.400 told my sister that he had been informed by several 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.920 individuals that I was running around in the street bragging 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.079 that I had committed the murders. And I called the 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.480 Detective Huntington back and asked him what was he talking about, 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.960 because I hadn't been talking to anybody. I told him 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.080 straight up, I said, look, it seems like you are 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.360 more concerned with listening to romas that you're hearing in 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.559 the street versus taking what you have at the crime, 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.000 seeing the actual evidence and using that is your starting 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.560 point to start your investigation. And do your job. So 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.640 then after we had their conversation, he asked me, would 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.000 I still be willing to come in and take the 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.120 Lotti tech the test the next day. I told him 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.040 I was not interested in taking the Lotti tech the test. 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.120 Instead of him doing his job, it seemed like he 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.720 was more interested in trying to hang these crimes on me. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.320 So now things are heated between you and this detective, 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.440 but he's got nothing on you. Nothing connects you to 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.520 this murder besides your previous relationship with the deceased. And 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.720 there's definitely a much more motivated and likely suspect in 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.840 the mix, But for now the case went cold. The 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:54.840 summer was coming to a close, and at this time, 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.520 two guys that you knew in junior high, Darryl and 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.640 Eric Cook, had gotten involved in bankrupt They were awaiting 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.600 charges on two separate incidents at bank robbery in Chesapeake 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.240 and then another one in Portsmouth, and the second one 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.360 involved to shootout with the police and Eric Cook. He 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.000 was looking to trade information for leniency. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.400 Seems to me that mister Eric Cook made his living 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:17.000 doing that. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.000 So while that part of the story is simmering in 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.840 the background, the entire Hobbs family was headed to Franklin, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.080 Virginia for a family reunion on Friday, August thirtieth, when 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.400 Terry received a traffic ticket on his ride out there, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.560 and that ticket was issued around six forty five pm 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.880 near Franklin, which is only about an hour's drive outside 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.520 of the Portsmouth, Virginia Beach area. 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.240 Well, you have to remember this is on a holiday weekend. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.400 We get beast traffic and people coming in from out 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.160 of state. There would be about a two and a 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.280 half to three hours draft fighting at traffic. 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.480 So this traffic ticket out in Franklin at six forty 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.640 five pm makes it extremely unlikely that you could even 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.440 be physically available to commit a bank robbery in Virginia 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.000 Beach a little after four pm that same afternoon. Now, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.880 this isn't the same bank robbery that Eric and Daryl 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.120 Cook were arrested for. This is a totally separate incident. 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.240 This was August thirtieth, nineteen ninety six, after four pm 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.680 in Virginia Beach. A black man in his mid twenties 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.320 with a baseball hat, sunglasses, a thick go tee, and 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.840 a dark blue backpack entered the first Virginia Bank on 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.920 the corner of Virginia Beach Boulevard and Kings Grant Round. 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.640 He revealed a gun in his waistband, but he never 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.440 drew it. The bank teller mis Barrard complied with his 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.040 demands and handed over about eight hundred dollars in small bills, 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.360 and the robber fled the scene. Now, this is a bank, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.240 so they've got all kinds of surveillance footage, of course, 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:36.840 and screenshots of this robber. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.080 And I've seen the pictures. There's no way you can 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.640 look at those photos and say Terry Hobbs did it. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.160 At that time, I couldn't even grow a full beat it. 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.120 I had a peach flods mustache and that was pretty 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.080 much it. With a guy who ractually robbed the bank 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.880 had a full mustache and go tee that was so 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.520 fake that you couldn't see that a drop of skin 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.520 through his mustache or go tee. 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.520 On top of that, the guy wasn't wearing any gloves. 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.240 To the transcripts, his hands were over the glass the case. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.840 There in the bank, they ran the fingerprints. Guess what, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.840 Terry's fingerprints didn't match anything there. 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.760 Very soon after the robbery, when shown a photo array 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.320 with Terrence's picture. The bank teller Ms Berrard and a 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.960 bank employee named Genie Chaplin both said that they couldn't 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.760 make a positive ID due to the assailant having worn 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.880 a hat, sunglasses, and a thick cotee, but somehow that 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:32.160 later changed, so no ID, no fingerprint match where there 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.000 definitely were fingerprints left to the scene. But now here 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.400 comes Eric Cook, a guy Terry hasn't spoken to since 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.480 junior high school who's facing his own bank robbery charges 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.080 as well as the attempted murder of a police officer 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.520 from Virginia Beach City Jail. And he was clearly looking 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.720 to trade information for leniency. But I thought that he 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.400 had robbed a bank in Portsmouth. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.440 He was on a courtesy hole, in particular crestody in 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.960 Virginia Beach because when he was an imforceable city jail 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.000 of the city which he attempted to committed bank robbery, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.520 and when he was in the jail block, any person 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.040 that was in the sale with him or in the 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.359 par with him, he would get on the phone and 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.520 call crime solversts and say that these people were confessing 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.639 the committing crimes. So it eventually got around and the 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.800 whole car had turned on him and beat him within 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.639 the ench of his life, and he had to be hospitalized. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.760 And after he was released from medical treatment, he was 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.959 put in Virginia Beach City Jail in protective custody, and 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.280 that's where he called Crime Solvi was once again from me. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.520 Even at the expense of almost losing his life for 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.359 baron false witness against people, he still hadn't learned his lesson. 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:41.600 So he goes from Portsmouth Jail under Detective Huntington's jurisdiction 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.119 to Virginia Beach who are a friend of Huntington's. A 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.680 detective named Chris Moleen was working the August thirtieth bank 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.000 robbery and Eric Cook called Crime Solvers with information that 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.000 just so happened to benefit both detectives. 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.080 He claims he called me. He said that I had 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.320 told him that I had robbed the bank whiching a Beach, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.280 and that I had also murdered Devana Bias and Leon Porte. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.280 But this alleged call between you and Eric Cook would 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.840 have been made from a jail phone. Not only would 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.040 it have been recorded and made for some really compelling 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.840 evidence a trial, but it also would have shown up 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.159 on your phone records if in fact it ever took place. 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:24.679 So I got my phone records during that time and 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.720 it showed no calls from no institution on there. 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.760 Man didn't even have my phone number, couldn't even tell 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:31.800 you what my phone number was. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.360 So this phone call just simply never took place. And 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.160 you know, calls to crime stoppers are anonymous. But yet 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.800 instead of the authorities paying a visit to Terry to 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.400 see what he had to say about these allegations, somehow 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:50.840 Detective Huntington's buddy in Virginia Beach, Detective Chris Malin knew 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.440 exactly who to go visit in the Virginia Beach City jail. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.480 So one can only surmise that this was a plan 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:05.159 that was between Mouleen Huntington and their highly incentivized witness, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:10.400 Eric Cook to make a quasi anonymous call to crime solvers. 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.720 But there's something else that's interesting about the interviews with 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:14.320 Eric Cook. 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.840 Every single interview that I have, there were copies of 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.840 statements made to the police would detect the robber tuning 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.119 General David Beachlaw and which is I think is extremely odd. 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.560 Why are you sitting an interviewing this man about a 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.920 Virginia Beach bank robbery. You have absolutely no risk powers 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:31.040 in the city of Virginia Beach. 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.920 All right, this shit stinks already. But as I mentioned, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.600 the bank teller, Missus Berrard, and the bank employee Jennie 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.160 Chaplin did not make an id from the photo lineup right. 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.760 The bank teller herself, she says, this guy right here 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.919 kind of looks like the robber, but because of the 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.280 robber wane of disguise, which was the hat and sunglasses, 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.240 I'm not one hundred percent sure that this is the robber. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.480 That is not a positive identification. But yet if you 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:00.680 look at my risk warrant, it say is the reason 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.879 I was being charge with that crime was due to 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.679 the sworn statements of Christopher C. Moleen, not the actual victim, 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.640 Tracy Barad or Genie Chaplin. 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.680 So Detective Malene fabricated evidence and both he and Eric 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.639 Cook purjured themselves in order to obtain your arrest warrant. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.080 The morning of September twenty third, nineteen ninety six, they 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.720 took me over to the Detectives Bureau. They kept me 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:24.560 in that room I don't know how many hours, and 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.200 detective hunting and came in there and tried to give 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.200 me the impression that I was being charge with the 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:30.800 murders and that he was going to make sure that 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.320 I got the death penalty. I didn't take it too kindly, 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.080 and I told him if he got off his ass 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.679 and did his fucking job and went by the evidence 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.199 of the crime scene, he could find out who committed 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.480 the murders and stopped harassing me. So he looks at 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.879 me and walked out the rum, and within five minutes 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.919 Detective Moleen came in and asked me to set aside 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.920 my conversation that I had just had with Detective Hunting, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.280 and so then he starts talking to me about a 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.719 bank robbert in Virginia Beach, and he said I had 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.800 already been identified as a suspect. I volunteered fingerprints to 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.359 run them if they had finger prints recovered from the 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.960 crime scene. Not only had they collective fingerprints from the 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.199 bank robbery, they had already run my fingerprints against the 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.760 fingerprints from the bank robbery before I was arrested, and 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:12.760 they came out negative. 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:18.000 They always knew you hadn't committed this crime. And sometimes 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.240 we just see a nihilistic approach from a detective where 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.640 they just don't care at all who they got as 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:25.800 long as they close the case, you know, if they 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.720 say a body for a body. But here it seems 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.359 as if all of this tension between you and Huntington 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.200 was just adding fuel to his fire. So were you 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:35.040 able to bond out? 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.000 And they took me to the Virginia Beach City jail. 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.439 I think I was allowed to probably close in ninety 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:41.920 days before I was able to get a bond right, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:42.640 And I. 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.800 Had to get an attorney to get his bond. Ken Melvin, 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.439 he's a judge now, but the attornety got the bond 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.840 for me, and it was a fifty thousand dollars bond, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:53.160 so he was. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:55.040 Out on bond for a little while. But you couldn't 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.800 afford Ken Melvin for the full trial, and eventually you 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.560 had a quarter pointed a two. But even for someone 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.320 who was presumably overworked and underpaid, as almost all of 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.200 the public devendors in the country are, this still should 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.119 have been an easy win. You had this false statement 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.359 from Eric Cook about an alleged phone call that you 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.840 could prove never took place, and then Ms Berrard and 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.600 mss Chaplin, who never identified you. But as we so 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:27.640 often see, sometimes witnesses become more confident in their ideas 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:29.159 as the trial approaches. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.159 Yes, nat goes from them not being showed them the 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.679 person did percent showed them the person. 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.240 Nine months later. How can she positively say it was 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.960 Terry and she couldn't do it hours after the robbery. 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.560 It just it just smells bad to me that she 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:45.280 was coached. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.320 But Okay, your attorney could have impeached these ideas as unreliable, 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.240 considering the fact that the witnesses had not been able 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.679 to make an id in the immediate aftermath of the robbery, 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.720 just hours after it took place, as well as the 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.919 fact that the bank robber face and had or covered 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.800 by a hat, sunglasses, and the thick goatee that Terry 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.439 couldn't possibly have grown. Plus, we know that you were 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:13.000 out of town en route to your family reunion in Franklin, Virginia. 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.320 You had, I mean, for christ sakes, you had a 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:17.720 traffic ticket to prove it, as well as the officer 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.520 who issued the ticket. Now I understand that he was 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.080 called as a witness to corroborate your whereabouts. 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.680 Right when I walked in the courtroom, that day, Blow 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:30.399 and behold Detective Huntington and Golan having a discussion with 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.359 this police officer that issued me the traffic ticket before 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.280 he ever takes the stand. He takes the stand and 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.199 states that he can't remember if I'm the person that 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.800 he actually gives you the ticket too. So my next 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.440 request was is that he give us the original copy 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:46.080 of the ticket. Well, the original copy of the ticket 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.480 supposedly was destroyed, and he supposedly had a gallon of 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:51.280 paint in the trunk of his car and had an 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.560 accident and the paint spilled on his paperwork, and therefore 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.199 the ticket was no longer available. But I find that 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:58.080 hard to believe. 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:03.080 Sounds totally made up to me. But still there's more 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:06.520 that could have been done to combat the state. Besides 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:10.040 what should have been an easy job impeaching the credibility 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:14.320 of the IDs, you had this patently bogus statement from 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:17.359 Eric Cook about an alleged phone call confession that you 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:22.719 could conclusively prove never took place. So what happened with that? 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:27.320 Apparently, after my attorney showed the Como frattorney to copy 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:30.119 of my phone records, the phone records reflected heiit and 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.400 never even called me. They allowed Earriit to change his testimony, 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:36.639 and they also sealed his statement that he made to 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.280 the Virginia Beach police because of the discovery when my 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.480 mom had a fool from the archives. They did not 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.520 allow us to see any statement he ever made to 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:46.160 the police. 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:48.600 So all you knew was that he alleged that you 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.800 confessed on a phone call. This wasn't some opportunity to 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.359 cross examine and create doubt when you submitted the phone 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:59.800 records to evidence as proof of the lies, that would 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.360 and should have shut down their lying star witness completely. 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:07.680 So the state just sidestepped your defense with mora lies. 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:10.240 But you had no idea that they were going to 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.960 do this. How could you have predicted that your defense 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.200 was prepared to disprove the lie about the phone call, 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.440 but was not prepared to combat this new lie. The 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:23.080 evidence was not shared with the defense. It's just perfect 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:27.440 example of a Brady violation right out in the open, 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:30.360 plain sight. So what did he change his story. 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.560 To He changed his story and see it that he 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.640 walked up on a conversation that me and his brother 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.159 was plotting to rob his bank in Virginia Beach, and 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.359 we said and planned it out and detailed myself and 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:44.240 his brother and the commonwealths attorney basically vouch for his credibility, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:46.800 and how he was coming full at great risk to 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:50.359 hisself because of me being an extremely dangerous individual, and 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:53.479 that he was putting hisself at great risk to protect 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.680 the citizens of Virginia Beach from people like myself. 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.920 So not a bank or arber trading false testimony for leniency, 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:02.920 but actually a concerned citizen was nothing to gain. 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.600 Jess a concerned citizen. They were aughted by the judge 0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:07.480 not to bring up his criminal history, none of his 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:11.200 prior crimes because in Chesapeake his citizen had been postponed 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:14.200 and imports of his citizen had been postponed, and under 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:16.760 the guide lines of the law until he's officially sentenced 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:18.720 by a judge, he is not a convicted felain. He 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.600 was actually one before he started his line of question, 0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:24.000 and not to ask him any questions about where he's 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:26.960 housed at or anything that would lead him into the 0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:29.960 devultion to the jewelry. That he was arrested and convicted 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:33.479 of any type of crime for his testimony. He was 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.440 given three years and thirty days for the attempted bank robber, 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.639 re imporcement, the juse of farms and the commission of 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.720 a felony, and the attempted capital murder of a police officer. 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:44.160 Jesus, I mean even the attempted murder of a police 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.240 officer usually carries you know, a little bit. 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:48.359 More than that, of course, but his statue on a 0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:51.720 murder is either life or death. He did three years 0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:54.280 and thirty days and then only was sentenced for the 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:57.719 Chesapeake bank robbery after he was released from prison. By 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:00.240 the time they suspended all this time, he only is 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:03.680 sixtys and eight months. So between the two robbery, the 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:05.879 three use of farms and the commissioner of felony and 0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:08.440 the attempt capital murder of police office, he got less 0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:09.240 than ten years. 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:13.320 So your lawyer wasn't even allowed to bring up the 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:17.240 fact that this guy is receiving a huge break on 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.880 his own charges in exchange for testifying against you. This 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:25.359 is really dirty. So Eric Cook's statement appeared to be 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:27.840 corroborated by the now all of a sudden one hundred 0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:31.240 percent sure of witnesses, and that was enough to overcome 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.840 the fingerprint evidence of the contrary, which by that I 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.400 mean the fact that you certainly were not there. 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:39.919 The fingerprints that were recovered. We couldn't even really go 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:42.600 into that too much because of the cong walth attorney. She 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:44.760 didn't want the fingerprints entered in the evidence. 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:46.360 What about your attorney? 0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:47.880 He didn't make the motion. 0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:52.760 So the jury came to a sadly predictable conclusion. 0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:54.879 Nobody in the jury would look at me, which I 0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:57.399 knew that was a bad time. They came with the 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.560 guilty verity. I looked over to mo Leen and Huntington. 0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:05.280 Huntingen winked at me and Jomio and you've made on 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:06.439 Tojo's gonna get you. 0:28:17.400 --> 0:28:21.000 We'll be right back after this. This episode is underwritten 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:25.360 by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed 0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:28.720 to corporate social responsibility and is making a positive difference 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.280 in the lives of its employees and in the communities 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:34.000 where we work and live. In light of the compelling 0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:36.960 need for pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:40.960 AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG 0:28:41.160 --> 0:28:45.000 pro Bono Program provides free legal services and other support 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:54.680 to underrepresented communities and individuals. So now you're convicted, but 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:56.720 you still had to go to sentencing. When your lawyer 0:28:57.080 --> 0:29:01.000 still had one move left, he located Eric Bok's brother, Darryl, 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:02.000 who took the stand. 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:05.280 Darryl Cook came forward and took the stand, and my 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:08.160 attorney asked them some questions and basically just said his 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.480 brother was lying because he didn't want to do the time. 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:14.960 In the end, my lawyer made a motion that the 0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:18.560 judge set aside the verdict and order a new trial 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:22.200 or overturned the conviction altogether. But the judge wasn't having 0:29:23.520 --> 0:29:24.640 he upheld the conviction. 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:27.880 The fact that his brother got on the stand and 0:29:27.920 --> 0:29:31.000 then they found phone rerecords were bogus that there was 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.360 never a call. I don't know how that did not 0:29:33.640 --> 0:29:34.640 get overturned. 0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:38.360 He appealed my centizen, which my guidelines was five years 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.160 and one month, immediate range point was six years and 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.080 two months. Nine years was the max, and they gave 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:46.440 me forty eight years and a thirty thousand dollar five. 0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:49.120 So, in light of Eric Cook's own brother coming into 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:52.280 testify against him, the state star witness, which should have 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:55.160 really shaken their confidence in this conviction, instead of the 0:29:55.200 --> 0:29:57.840 max of nine years, they doubled down on this tragedy 0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.840 by over sentencing you. So your lawyer must have had 0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:04.960 an appeal ready to go. I know in Virginia you've 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:07.240 got to get it filed within thirty days of the conviction, 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:07.760 though right. 0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:11.320 He had a state appointed attorney that really did nothing 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.360 for him. Even times I would go to his office 0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:17.920 to try and meet with him. I think I was 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:22.800 avoided twice. The third time I laid in wait in 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:25.400 the parking lot, they said he wasn't there, So I 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.400 stayed in the parking lot until he got there so 0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:29.960 I could have a talk with him. 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:31.480 How did that conversation go? 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:34.480 I went up to his office with him because I 0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:37.320 wanted to know what was going on. Where are we 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.880 now with the appeal? Well, and that's when he let 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.040 me know he didn't get it filed in time. 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:47.960 Author Ehnrich, who has been disbarred more than three times 0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:49.960 for one of the very things that he did to me. 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:52.719 You know how you have a constitutional rights to an appeal, 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:55.960 has never had an appeal for my case in Virginia 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.920 Beach because he made the motion that he would be 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:02.120 filing appeal and never filed it. And I was time barred. 0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:05.960 So my constitutional right to appeal was lost. It was 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:09.960 revealed later that he had a cocaine habit and he 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:12.360 was barely been his duties. So I know when I 0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.640 when I claimed ineffect of assistance a council, that's exactly 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:17.640 what I had, whether the common was attorney. When they 0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:20.120 get to filed their briefs, they claim I was only 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:24.920 claiming interffective assistance or council is because I was unsatisfied 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:26.479 with the outcome of my trial. 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.080 So you were time barred on the direct appeal and 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:32.120 denied on a clear case of ineffective assistance a council, 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:34.920 and therefore you were stuck to serve out a forty 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:37.880 eight year sentence, effectively a life sentence. Now, at this time, 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:42.120 Virginia made another horrendous move, which is that they did 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.720 away with parole entirely. But if your jury had not 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.360 been advised that you would never be eligible, as was 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:50.360 in fact the case here, you would have been what 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:54.600 is known as a fishback candidate. So that becomes an 0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.520 issue later on and we'll explain that. So you've potentially 0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:01.160 got parole to look forward to. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to you, 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:04.040 Detective Huntington was out there for several years building up 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:07.120 a case against you for the double homicide, and he 0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:11.040 was talking to people you knew through your hobby of 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.280 riding motorcycles, as well as some guys that you knew 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:16.480 from your short time that you spent dealing drugs, and 0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:22.719 Detective Huntington was working on coercing and incentivizing them to cooperate, 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:27.320 and eventually he was successful at finding five people who 0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:29.440 were willing to do it by nineteen ninety nine. 0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:33.480 Every single one of them have cases against them, and 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.280 most of them are big time drug dealers or in 0:32:36.320 --> 0:32:39.280 the drug trade and they have something to gain by 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:46.040 lying on Terrence Hobbs. Detective Huntington, Yeah, he was on 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:49.040 a mission to convict the wrong man of these double. 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:51.400 Murders, Terry, Since the only thing you knew about Eric 0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:53.400 Cook's initial statement at this point was that he had 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:55.520 implicated you and the robbery, and the rest of the 0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:59.320 details were sealed, including the fact that he'd implicated you 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:02.000 in the double murder as well. Were you even aware 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:05.200 of Detective Huntington's investigation? When did you find out? 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:09.720 I was actually sitting in prison at Southampton Coressional Facility. 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:12.479 I'm sitting in the sale looking at television, and they 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:14.360 had movies on the weekend and they rented for us 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.400 to see. And one of my friends come past the 0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:20.360 sale and he say, tee. He said, ma'am. He said, 0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:22.120 I just saw you on the news. They just indicted 0:33:22.200 --> 0:33:25.280 you for two council capital murder. I said, man, go 0:33:25.280 --> 0:33:28.600 ahead with that bullshit. Stop playing, He said, Man, I 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:30.520 wouldn't play about nothing like that. He said, turn from 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.200 a movie channel. He said. He turned the NBCCBSORABC. Every 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:37.440 time they show a commercial, they're showing your face on 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:39.640 the news, and you're being charged in a cold case. 0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.120 I couldn't believe it. And then we thought back to 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:46.680 what had happened that night. He and his sister had 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:47.760 gone to the movie. 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:51.080 Right. He was with his sister at the movies and 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.880 came by your house for some mail, then went back 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:57.400 to his sisters. She accounted for his arrival around midnight, 0:33:57.480 --> 0:33:59.880 the same time that an ear witness heard gunshots from 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:04.120 Havanna Buyer's apartment. She and Leon Porter were each shot once, 0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:05.560 execution style. 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:09.960 She had already been threatened that if she testified against 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:14.040 the drug kingpin, which was her daughter's father, then for 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:17.160 it would happened to her he had already shot and 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:21.719 killed someone else that was karing his baby before he 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:22.520 was locked up. 0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.560 But rather than tracking down those leaves, Detective Huntington just 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:29.160 went ahead and pursued Terry, whose fingerprints again were not 0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:32.400 found in a scene where they almost certainly should have 0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:36.239 been considering his relationship with Divanna and Terry was more 0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:39.040 than helpful. He came to Devana's house with his sister, 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:41.879 who was ready to vouch for his whereabouts, and all 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:45.160 of his guns were tested for holistics evidence. He willingly 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:49.200 gave his fingerprints submitted to a GSR testing. No matches 0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:51.640 were found, and at least initially he was willing to 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:53.520 take a lot of detective tests, but none of that 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:59.160 was good enough for this Detective Huntington. It almost makes 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:01.279 you think that he it was doing everything he could 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:04.560 to avoid investigating the guy who he should have been investigating, 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:07.600 which was sket Richardson. So, with this lack of evidence 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:10.600 and clear standout suspect, Detective hunting had to get creative 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.600 and he conjured up five witnesses, but the stories weren't 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:17.640 quite adding up. But even with this weak ass bullshit case, 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:21.640 publicly they were claiming that they had five corroborating witnesses. 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:24.040 If you look at the newspaper article that was dated 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:25.960 for what were the first nineteen ninety nine in the 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:30.319 Virginian Pilot newspaper. They were requesting the death penalty, and 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:33.000 they even came to me with a twenty year plead 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:34.680 to try to get me the plead guilty for two 0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:38.040 council capital murder, and I refused to take a guilty 0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:41.279 plead of twenty years for two murders that I had 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:44.640 not committed. They came back and brought a teen year 0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:47.040 plea to me and I refused to take that as well. 0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:50.000 They had my attorney asked me, would be any amount 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.799 of time that I would be willing to accept so 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:54.839 that they wouldn't have to take me to trial, and 0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:57.120 I would not take it. I actually still have a 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.439 copy of the twenty year plead. They did ten year 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:03.160 plea verbally twenty year plea for two council of capital 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:05.440 murder to run k and Karen with the forty eight 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:10.160 years in Virginia Beach. Now the state of Virginia, there's 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.560 only two penalties for capitol murden, his life or death. 0:36:13.960 --> 0:36:16.239 So how do you offer a man a twenty year 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:18.000 plea in the in turnaround, I offer him a teen 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:20.880 year plea for a capitol murder unless you know he 0:36:20.880 --> 0:36:21.480 didn't do it. 0:36:21.800 --> 0:36:26.840 Yes, they know he's not the guy. No prosecutor would 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:30.160 come with a ten year plea deal on a double 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:34.839 murder if they knew he committed to crime. No way, no, Hew, 0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:38.240 that's just bullshit. They want to close the case. 0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:41.520 Nevertheless, they took him to trial knowing that the evidence 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:49.160 was all just incentivized testilize that started with Eric Cook. 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:52.240 He was so unreliable that they did not even include 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:55.040 him in this proceeding at all. Now, the five quote 0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:59.640 unquote new witnesses here were Sean Saunders, Curtis Freeman, William Godwin, 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:03.040 Derek Blackwell, and Tyron Wallace. And we're about to destroy 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:05.360 all of their credibility right now. 0:37:05.560 --> 0:37:08.560 Well Sewn Saunders, who happens to be a three time 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.440 felon and who admitted to Terry's mom after the trial 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:14.840 that he had lied to avoid going back to prison. 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:17.560 He worked with Terry on the construction job at the 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:22.359 Coastguard Base. He testified that he and Terry were good 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.719 friends throughout high school, but Saunders had actually dropped out 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:28.319 of school in eighth grade. According to Terry didn't see 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.279 him again until he worked with him on the coastguard job, 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.680 and Saunders claimed that while they were working together that 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.120 Terry told him that he and Devanna were breaking up 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:41.319 and that if he ever found Devona with another man, 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:43.799 he would kick in the door of an apartment if 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:44.600 he had to with. 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:48.600 Killer Seawn Sanders claimed that he told my supervisor. My 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:51.640 supervisor actually came to court and testis out on my behalf. 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:54.000 He said we were never alone together, that he worked 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:55.520 in one place and I worked in another. 0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:59.160 A year before the trial. Interestingly, Saunders had been subpoenat, 0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:02.799 but he didn't tell you authorities about Terry's alleged emissions. 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:05.280 Then you know, it was only the day before Terry's 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:09.200 trial after Saunders again was arrested for selling drugs, the 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.759 Saunders come up with the story that Terry threatened to 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:14.640 kick in Divana's door and kill her if he saw 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:15.560 her with another man. 0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:19.160 Saunders testify that Terry had said he would park his 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:22.480 motorcycle around back and kick in the back door and 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:24.960 use a silencer on a gun. But there's a problem 0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:28.879 with this that earwitness would have definitely heard a motorcycle. 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:34.000 And importantly, there is no back door, So he would 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:36.319 have made that mistake to say I'm going to kick 0:38:36.360 --> 0:38:38.799 in the back door knowing there is no back door. 0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:41.759 Right, Terry knew that apartment well and never would have 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:45.840 mentioned a non existent back door. Now, Curtis Freeman, he 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:49.160 was facing home invasion and robbery charges. What did he 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:50.640 say to save his own skin? 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:54.879 Freeman's testifying that he was familiar with Terry's motorcycle, which 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:58.280 he described as being a neon greenish color and purple 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:02.680 and allegedly unique because of his bright colors, despite Terry 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:07.439 riding with many others who also had these colorful sport motorcycles. 0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:12.840 He also testified that he noticed Terry's motorcycle parked around 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.600 the block from Devona's apartment on the night of the murders, 0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:21.200 and that he said Terry had a notoriously loud motorcycle 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:22.560 because of the modifications. 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:24.760 So now the bike is parked around the block, and again, 0:39:24.840 --> 0:39:28.239 where was the ear witness on this extremely loud motorcycle. 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:34.120 They heard the gunshots, but no notoriously loud motorcycles speeding away. 0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:35.080 They somehow missed that. 0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:40.440 One Freeman was given probation for a home invasion and 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:42.520 robbery because of his cooperation. 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:45.080 And Lenny can back me up here. But these are 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:47.480 not the types of sentences that Virginia is known for 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:50.399 doling out for home invasions or anything for that matter. 0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:52.880 I mean, Lenny got over a thousand years for stealing 0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:54.560 just a little bit over five hundred dollars. 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:55.759 Oh my goodness. 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:58.920 So now we're at William Godwin or Bill Godwin. Right, 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:01.759 he was in federal custody drug possession conspiracy charges with 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:04.040 the seventeen and a half year sentence. Initially he had 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.120 said that he didn't know anything about the murders, but 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:10.080 knew that Terry was innocent. What did he say to 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:12.400 get released after just two and a half years? 0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:15.400 Like, he claimed that he was with me and he 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:19.360 saw me threaten Greg Elliott with a far arm because 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.480 Greg was at her house visit in her and Greg 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:26.640 Elliott came the courte and subpoena as a Commonwealt attorney witness, 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:28.799 and once he took his sting and basically said that 0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:31.040 everything that Beal testified to was a lie. 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:33.799 So there goes lie number one. Then Godwin testified that 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:35.840 he had been told by a man named Daryl Evans 0:40:35.880 --> 0:40:38.279 about a conversation that Evans had overheard in which Terry 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:39.600 had confessed to the murders. 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:42.080 Daryl Evan has come to court and testify it and 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:43.520 refused Bial's testimony. 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:46.520 So there goes Godwin, making the Commonwealth look stupid again. 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:49.879 He also alleged that Terry had basically confessed to him 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:53.200 about the murders. But I think Godwin had already told 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.640 too many lies that had been refuted in court for 0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:58.840 anyone to take him seriously about anything. So on to 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:01.640 Derek Blackwell, he was in federal custody on charges of 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:04.560 being a drug kingpen and running a criminal enterprise, facing 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:07.160 thirty years to life. Initially, he had told police that 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.040 knew nothing about the crimes, but then. 0:41:09.880 --> 0:41:13.719 He lies and says about two to three weeks after 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:17.000 the killings, he and Terry were at a gas station 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:23.200 in Portsmouth and Terry unsolicited now admits to shooting Devana 0:41:23.440 --> 0:41:26.520 and Porter. He first offered a story about Terry's alleged 0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:31.319 confession about two months after he had been arrested in 0:41:31.360 --> 0:41:35.680 November of nineteen ninety seven for federal drug conspiracy charges. 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:41.080 Blackwell only served three and a half years as a 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:45.719 result of his cooperation. Interesting with Blackwell's testimony. You know, 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:47.520 he said Terry was with him at his house all 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:51.399 day until seven pm on July nineteenth, nineteen ninety six. 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:55.759 That's directly contradicted by Terry's work time card at the 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:57.200 Coastguard base that day. 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:01.520 Just another fucking liar that to his description of Terry's 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.000 bike as primarily black. I thought it was Neon, green 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:09.000 and purple. So enough of this guy. Last, but not least, 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:12.800 Tyrone Wallace, who was in federal custody facing drug conspiracy charges. 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:16.160 Evidence is clear that the door was kicked in. Wallace 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:20.239 testified that Terry admitted he killed Divanna in Porter after 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:23.680 he parked his bike. Now it's a couple of blocks away, 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:26.719 not behind, a couple of blocks away all the night 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:30.680 of the murders, and entered the apartment with a duplicate key. 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.239 Yet we know the door had been kicked in. He 0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:35.399 also said that Terry had said that he shot Porter 0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:37.720 while he was lying in bed, and that he shot 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:39.400 Divana from under the chin. 0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:42.640 But the medical examiner established at Porter was shot in 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:44.440 the face while sitting at the end of the bed 0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:46.280 and Devona had been shot in the back of the head. 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:51.120 So contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. You know, he faced 0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:53.439 twenty two years and served less than four. 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:57.960 Come on, man, it's just exponential injustice on top of 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:02.280 an already insane double wrongful conviction. But I mean, couldn't 0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:04.640 the jury see how these guys their stories just weren't 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:07.320 matching up, That their stories didn't match the back to 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:10.279 the crime, and in some cases their lives were called 0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:13.680 out by both defense and prosecution witnesses that this was 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:17.759 not some jealous boyfriend case, but rather a homicide that 0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:21.040 was in retribution for Divana's testimony against her acts. 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.120 Yeah, the common of the turning kept down playing it 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:26.880 is that would not be enough motive compared to the 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:29.200 evidence that they had. And the only evidence that they 0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:32.600 had against me was the false testimony of these witnesses. 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:35.040 And I guess the only thing and I could think 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:37.200 that would have caused me to get a guilty verdict 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.759 is that the jury would feel like, well, all of 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:58.520 these guys can't be lyned, even though they were. They 0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:02.080 had tried to killed me without killing my body. They 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.200 killed me by killing my reputation, which in turn caused 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:07.680 me to be found guilty of these crimes, and they 0:44:07.719 --> 0:44:09.480 thought that this is gonna be the end for me, 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:11.960 that they were gonna lock me up for basically thirteen 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:13.440 hundred years, and that was gonna be the end of 0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:14.040 my story. 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:17.120 And that's a number that Lendy is all too familiar with. 0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:22.360 These insane numbers really started after they abolished parole in Virginia. 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:23.640 Right when was that? 0:44:23.880 --> 0:44:26.919 Well, guys had opportunities at parole well before ninety five 0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:29.960 January ninety five. So even in a case like this, 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.560 if you had a life sentence, you start going up 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:37.240 for parole in twelve years, two life sentences, you still 0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:39.399 get an opportunity to go up you just it would 0:44:39.440 --> 0:44:43.520 take around twenty years. Guys still had a shot if 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:47.080 you weren't given life without the possibility of par The 0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:51.320 life sentences didn't nail you until after they abolished parole. 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.560 And so now if you get life, it means exactly 0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:55.400 that life. 0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:58.600 Wow, and you have how long to follow your appeal 0:44:58.640 --> 0:44:59.640 In Virginia. 0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:01.960 You got thirty day to get that appeal in immediately. 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:04.160 So Terry, I'm going to imagine that you didn't just 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:06.719 want to take this insane sentence lying down, but with 0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:09.640 two wrongful convictions and this seriously short amount of time 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.720 for a meaningful appeal to be filed, no potential DNA testing, 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:17.160 no possibility of parole. What happened? Did your lawyer screw 0:45:17.200 --> 0:45:18.680 it up and get time barred again? 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:21.640 We actually went through there and Jordan time field process 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:24.160 and that one single jealous would overturn the convictions. 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:26.839 I mean, post conviction litigation is largely based on whether 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.279 or not you receive due process and if any constitutional 0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:32.480 rights were violated. I'm sure in effective assistance could be 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:36.480 argued here, but accompanying actual innocence claims can be helpful 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.400 with any other claims. And the only evidence against you 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:44.719 at the second trial were these inconsistent and patently and 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:48.759 obviously false statements from these incentivized witnesses. Was all of 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:49.759 that pointed out to them? 0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:52.320 Yes, all of this stuff was pointed out, But to 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:54.440 say the fact that the matter is a lot of 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:56.800 these people don't want to point to saying that another 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:01.000 prosecutor or police officer certain say that they were. And 0:46:01.040 --> 0:46:03.759 that's just the sad fact of the matter. Without the 0:46:04.080 --> 0:46:06.680 support of my family, I believe I would have lost 0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:09.799 myself in here because I'm gonna tell you something. I'm 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:13.000 surrounded in this small amount of acreage of this penitentiary. 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:17.840 I'm around from everything that you could possibly think of, murderers, rapists, 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:22.960 child molester's necro vctiality. I'm around the worst of the worst. 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.960 Had I not had the love and support of my 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:31.959 family sticking by me and just they received that unconditional love, 0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:34.279 it kept me from losing myself in here. To be 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:36.600 completely honest with you, I don't know what kind of 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:38.920 person I would be now had I been left to 0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:43.680 living in this environment of violence and blood and sweat 0:46:43.760 --> 0:46:47.880 and tears. People on the team people commit suicide, hanging 0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:50.480 themselves because they could not do this time. I do 0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:55.080 this time every single day, alcohol free, disease free, drug 0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:57.640 free of any of those things. So the things that 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:00.759 most people do in here to deal with the reality, 0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:03.839 I deal with sober. That's the only way I can 0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.200 have a clear head to do what I need to 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:08.319 do to try to mount the best defense that I 0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:10.680 can for myself. And when people like yourself are interested 0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:13.480 in hearing my story, I can tell the team, and of. 0:47:13.440 --> 0:47:15.960 Course people like Lennie who heard your story. If not 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:18.960 for him, we wouldn't be having this recording session right now. 0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:21.359 And if I hadn't read about his story, of course 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:22.880 in the New York Times, I'm not sure any of 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:25.560 us would be talking right now. Lenny. How did you 0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:26.800 and Terry end up meeting? 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:30.480 I was transferred to not Away Correctional Center in nineteen 0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:33.319 ninety eight, and I think I were. Yeah, we met 0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:37.040 around early two thousands. And Terry, because of what he's 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:40.440 been through, he is totally aloof walking around with his 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:43.920 grid on his face every day, and most people really 0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:47.799 didn't like Terry inside because of that, and so he 0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:50.479 just kind of gravitated towards me. I was a leader 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:53.360 in the church and doing a lot of teaching and mentoring, 0:47:54.000 --> 0:47:57.000 and a little bit at a time he started sharing 0:47:57.080 --> 0:48:00.000 with me his story and I would tell him, I says, well, Terry, 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:02.680 what are you doing about this? Well, at that time 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:05.960 that's I was working on a conditional pardon. I said, man, 0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:09.320 your case is so bad that I could not possibly 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:12.480 see anybody reading all of this and not doing something 0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:17.160 about it. And so eventually I would be granted my pardon. 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:22.120 On January twelfth, twenty eighteen, my wife had already gotten 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:25.799 hired by attorney John A. Cockshull. He added me to 0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:28.840 the team the very next day after my release. Once 0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:34.120 Attorney Cockshull created what he called the Pardon Petition Team, 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:38.480 Terry Hobbs was our first client, so we've been working 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:40.640 with him since the end of twenty eighteen. 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:44.000 So what happened with the conditional pardon petition. 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:50.319 We filed his original pardon petition in twenty twenty, just 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:55.080 based on the bogus bank robbery. They turned it down 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:59.840 because they believed that he was a fishback candidate. Fishback 0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:04.120 is for guys who were sentenced between ninety five and 0:49:04.160 --> 0:49:09.080 two thousand, and the jury wasn't instructed that parole had 0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:12.400 been abolished, So these guys are getting these long sentences 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:17.600 and the jurors don't know that there's no parole in Virginia, 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:20.839 so they were under the assumption that Terry was a 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:24.600 fishback candidate. In hindsight, now I think we probably should 0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:29.040 have done the double murders first, because it was those 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:33.799 double murders that removed Terry from being a fish back 0:49:33.880 --> 0:49:38.520 eligible for parole. If we could have gotten the double 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:41.960 murders removed with the pardon, that would have just left 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.160 the bank robbery which would have allowed him to go 0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:48.680 up for parole, turned down his original pardon petition, and 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:53.080 we had to wind up calling Missus Trudy Harris, who's 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:56.640 the chief investigator over the parole board, informing her about 0:49:56.680 --> 0:50:00.920 all of this, and they would eventually reinstate his petition. 0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:04.480 I mean, honestly, because he's an innocent man of both 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:09.200 of those things. We went ahead and added an addendum 0:50:09.239 --> 0:50:13.719 to that original pardon petition showing both the bank robbery 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:18.000 and the double murders as being bogus. And that was 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:22.839 November twenty twenty one. So in essence, his petition, from 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:27.760 what I understand, hasn't reached the stage of a full 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:30.239 investigation yet and we're waiting on that. 0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:33.040 And Lenny, normally we speak with our guest attorney. I'm 0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:35.359 very happy to speak with you. But there's another sad 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:37.880 note to this story about why we're not speaking with him. 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:40.520 And I'm talking, of course about the late great John 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:41.680 Cattishaw Well. 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:48.600 Unfortunately, Attorney John Cockshall. He passed away June nineteenth, twenty 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:53.000 twenty two. It was totally unexpected. We were just visiting 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:55.879 him in April of twenty twenty two. We all went 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.560 to an awards event where he was awarded Attorney of 0:50:59.600 --> 0:51:03.320 the Year. Vandy and I were awarded Authors of the Year, 0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:07.839 and we just saw him. His wife had just passed away, 0:51:07.960 --> 0:51:11.400 probably three to four months before he did, and we 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:13.839 could kind of tell that, you know, he that took 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:14.960 the wind out of his sales. 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:17.040 Now, I'm sure he would have loved to get Terry 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:19.840 over the line before he passed, But you and your wife, 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:21.640 Andy are going to get him there, as you have 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:25.239 done for so many others already. And I understand John 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:30.080 trusted you both implicitly actually making you too fearless warriors. 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:31.520 A branch of his firm. 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:35.880 We were the western branch of the John A Coxual 0:51:35.920 --> 0:51:40.600 law firm. Yes, and so yeah, we obtained eleven pardons 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:44.000 since twenty eighteen, including my own. 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:46.680 You're an inspirational guy, and I know you can do it. 0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:49.719 So I know it was Terry mccalloff that pardoned you, 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:52.120 and Governor Northen was also very active in this arena. 0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:54.320 Now we have Governor Glenn youenkin. 0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:57.840 The thing about the pardon process when you're running a 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:00.759 state as big as Virginia, co'm and wealth as big 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:05.040 as Virginia, they just don't have time to investigate, so 0:52:05.160 --> 0:52:07.759 he appoints people to do that. Jrudy Harris being the 0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:11.719 chief investigator for the Parole Board over pardons, and then 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:16.520 you have five parole board members, so he delegates that 0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:22.440 task onto them, and they make a recommendation to the governor. 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:26.200 Nine out of ten times, unless it's something high profile 0:52:26.719 --> 0:52:28.719 and the governor just doesn't want it to taint his 0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:33.000 political career, he goes with the recommendation of that parole 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:34.319 board and those investigators. 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:37.920 Well, I hope miss Harris is listening. We implore her, 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:40.960 don't listen to us. Follow the evidence. Look at the 0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:43.400 flimsy false testimony in this case that was refuted by 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:47.279 other witnesses, and the physical evidence plus the more likely suspects. 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:49.880 I think you'll find that this should be an easy decision. 0:52:50.520 --> 0:52:52.760 Now we're going to have action steps linked in the bio, 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:55.040 and I also asked that our audience scroll down and 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:58.920 get involved. I always say pressure breaks pipes, people, and 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:02.480 we need you now. And with that, we're gonna go 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:05.279 to my favorite part of the show. Of course, this 0:53:05.360 --> 0:53:07.680 is the part we called closing arguments, where I turned 0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:12.000 my microphone off and let you guys have the final 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:14.880 say so I'm gonna kick back in my chair with 0:53:15.000 --> 0:53:20.399 my headphones on. Lenny Singleton once you go first, then 0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:24.719 Ms Catherine Hobbs, and of course Terry, I'm gonna save 0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:27.600 you for last. Thank you all for being here, and 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:29.760 now I'm just gonna sit back and listen. 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:34.960 This could happen to anyone. He wasn't a choir boy, 0:53:35.960 --> 0:53:38.840 but he wasn't a bank robber, and he wasn't a killer. 0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:42.280 This just goes to show that our criminal justice system 0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:48.759 still has a very long ways to go, especially as 0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:53.239 it relates to African American men. Sadly, we make up 0:53:53.239 --> 0:53:56.399 about sixty percent of the prison system in Virginia and 0:53:56.840 --> 0:54:00.120 something needs to change. We need to get involved. We 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:04.160 need to talk to our elected officials, get them involved 0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:08.640 with fixing the things that we know are wrong. Using 0:54:08.840 --> 0:54:13.520 convicted feelings as your only evidence in any case, just 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:18.520 can't take someone's word for it, especially if they're getting 0:54:18.520 --> 0:54:20.960 a deal. You got to have more evidence than. 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:28.920 That he got involved with the wrong people and they 0:54:29.040 --> 0:54:33.879 just used him to gain their own freedom. I think 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:36.399 Karl was not eve on a lot of things and 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:41.480 they could see that, so they just used him he's 0:54:41.520 --> 0:54:44.120 a mom. I never would have did anything like this 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:48.120 to anybody, so I didn't think nobody would do this 0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:53.000 to me, and neither did I. He needs to come home, 0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:55.960 he's grown up. He needs to spend time with his daughter, 0:54:56.440 --> 0:54:59.520 he needs to spend time with this whole family and 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:05.040 I I'm so grateful and appreciative for what you all 0:55:05.080 --> 0:55:05.600 are doing. 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.440 Thank you very much, Jason to take this time out 0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:13.719 to interview me, to shine a light on the injustice 0:55:13.760 --> 0:55:16.080 that was done to me. I wouldn't wish this on 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:21.120 any person. Detective speech fool when he came to see 0:55:21.160 --> 0:55:24.000 me to serve the indictments on me in Southampton. They 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.399 even implied that I may could help him with other 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:30.799 cases and make my charges less or disappear altogether. I 0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:33.000 told him, after what I've gone through and what my 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:36.400 family has gone through, I would never put anyone or 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.440 their family through what my family Hasn't do it just 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:43.520 to regain my freedom. I'm not that individual. I have 0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:45.160 to be able to look myself in the miror and 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:47.480 like what I see on a daily basis. Even if 0:55:47.520 --> 0:55:49.400 it was to spend the rest of my life in prison, 0:55:49.960 --> 0:55:52.080 I had to live my life and be able to 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:54.520 hold my head up with pride and know that I 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:57.640 did not low on somebody else to ruin somebody else's 0:55:57.680 --> 0:56:01.160 life just to ease my suffering, because that's what they 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:01.719 wanted me to do. 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:12.440 Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:16.200 thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis, 0:56:16.360 --> 0:56:19.440 with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:22.960 was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 0:56:23.080 --> 0:56:26.560 Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:30.560 on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:33.719 wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 0:56:33.840 --> 0:56:36.799 all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:41.040 TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 0:56:41.080 --> 0:56:43.799 the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.920 Signal Company Number one