1
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: It was the summer of nineteen ninety six in Portsmouth, Virginia,

2
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,719
Speaker 1: and Terence Hobbs had just started dating Devana Byers, a

3
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,840
Speaker 1: young woman who shared a five year old daughter with

4
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,880
Speaker 1: one of the biggest drug dealers in town. When the

5
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,439
Speaker 1: FBI pressed Devanna about aiding her ex with money laundering,

6
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,959
Speaker 1: she agreed to testify against him in his federal drug charges,

7
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 1: planning to skip town afterward. Devanna and Terry's budding romance

8
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: fizzled as a result. On July twentieth, nineteen ninety six,

9
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 1: shortly after her testimony, the bodies of Devana Buyers and

10
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: another lover, Leon Porter, were discovered, having both been shot

11
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,240
Speaker 1: once in the head. Investigators immediately honed it on Terry Hobbs,

12
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,159
Speaker 1: Divana's most recent X, but with no physical evidence to

13
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: corroborate the theory, the case went cold. As the summer

14
00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 1: wound down, a bank robbery occurred in nearby Virginia Beach.

15
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,920
Speaker 1: While facing unrelated charges, an old junior high acquaintance of Terry's,

16
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: Eric Cook, alleged that he had called Terry from jail

17
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,200
Speaker 1: and that Terry had confessed to both the bank robbery

18
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 1: and the July double homicide. At the bank robbery trial,

19
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 1: the bank teller and another employee corroborated Eric Cook, which

20
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,600
Speaker 1: must have meant that Terry's fingerprints had just been missed

21
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,320
Speaker 1: by the crime scene technicians. At the double homicide trial,

22
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 1: five witnesses facing their own criminal charges painted Terry as

23
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 1: a jealous ex boyfriend. But they couldn't possibly all be lying,

24
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,959
Speaker 1: especially about a convicted arm bank robber. But this is

25
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:49,560
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today we have

26
00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 1: a first on this program, a double wrongful conviction. Now

27
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,280
Speaker 1: Terrence Hobbs was convicted of a bank robbery and then

28
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: a completely separate double homicide, both of which he had

29
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 1: nothing to do with. Terry joined us from not Away

30
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: Correctional Facility in Virginia. Terrence, Welcome to wrongful conviction.

31
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

32
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're very welcome and joining us as a man

33
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,639
Speaker 1: who knew Terry on the inside. He himself was rightfully

34
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 1: convicted for a string of robberies in the nineties in

35
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,800
Speaker 1: which no one got hurt and the proceeds amounted to

36
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: around five hundred and eleven dollars. But I think it's

37
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 1: fair to say that you were over sentenced having received

38
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,519
Speaker 1: a grand total of get this one thousand, three hundred

39
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: and ten years. Governor mccauliffe granted him a conditional pardon

40
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen, and Lenny has been fighting to

41
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,920
Speaker 1: clear Terry ever since. Lenny Singleton, welcome to the show.

42
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 3: Thank you, glad to be here.

43
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 1: Very glad to have you, and also here with us

44
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 1: as someone who's been fighting for Terry the longest. His mother,

45
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,639
Speaker 1: Catherine Hobbs, thank you from the bottom of my heart

46
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,360
Speaker 1: for joining us and very courageously sharing today.

47
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 4: You're welcome, happy to be here now.

48
00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 1: These crimes took place in two cities that are close

49
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,920
Speaker 1: to one another. There was a bank robbery in Virginia

50
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 1: Beach In about a month before that, there was a

51
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,040
Speaker 1: double homicide in which the departed were a woman named

52
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 1: Devana Byers, who was the mother of a drug kingpin's

53
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 1: daughter and her new lover, Leon Porter, a man who

54
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 1: was in possession of a very large amount of cocaine.

55
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,600
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe he was a competing dealer. We

56
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,800
Speaker 1: don't know, but it doesn't seem far fetched. So the

57
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,000
Speaker 1: homicide portion of this is certainly touching that world. In Portsmouth, Virginia, now, Lenny,

58
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: when you were in the military before your conviction, you

59
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: were stationed in Virginia. Right.

60
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 3: Remember, Portsmouth, Virginia was like one of the heroin capitals

61
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 3: of the world, this country anyway, and they were known

62
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 3: for corruption. Every time I opened the paper back in

63
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 3: the nineties, there was always some issue about corruption in Portsmouth.

64
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 1: Right, and Terry, you grew up there, so could you

65
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: or maybe Ms. Hobbs if you want to jump in

66
00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: here too, could you tell us about your life growing up.

67
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,120
Speaker 2: On August nineteen seventy in the city of Portsmouth, Virginia

68
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 2: to a upper middle class black family. Pretty much had

69
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 2: a typical childhood, I guess you could say it.

70
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 4: So.

71
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,120
Speaker 2: I was diagnosed with dyslexia and very greed and.

72
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 4: He was very self conscious about that. They said he

73
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 4: had above average intelligence, but he had the reading problem.

74
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 4: And at the time they didn't know how to help

75
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 4: students with that reading problem. So they put in a

76
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 4: special education in which you get a certificate.

77
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 3: You do not get us the thumba.

78
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 4: We come from a military family, and he wanted to

79
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,719
Speaker 4: go so much with that certificate, he was not able

80
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 4: to go.

81
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,719
Speaker 1: And your military upbringing brought you in touch with guns,

82
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 1: and you owned several legal firearms, all of which were

83
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: being stored out of your possession at the time of

84
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 1: the crime. But even the fact that you owned firearms

85
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 1: at all was eventually used against you, even though none

86
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,400
Speaker 1: of your guns could be connected to the crimes were

87
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: about to discuss here, But let's get back to Terry's childhood.

88
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 2: I started working at an early age. I got a

89
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,200
Speaker 2: job at food line at age sixteen and worked all

90
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 2: through high school at food line. After the food line,

91
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 2: my cousin got me a job with him working at

92
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: the shipyard. Unfortunately, I got laid off, and at one

93
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 2: point in time I did get involved in selling drugs

94
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 2: on a very small level, but I never got arristed

95
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,839
Speaker 2: for it, and then after I was able to get

96
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,720
Speaker 2: my career back on track, I walked away from it.

97
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: And you'll get no judgment from me about being involved

98
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 1: in drugs. But that, along with the love of motorcycles,

99
00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,839
Speaker 1: did bring you into contact with a crowd of people

100
00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 1: who later went on to help frame you in exchange

101
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,039
Speaker 1: for leniency in their own very serious cases. But in

102
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 1: the lead up to these two incidents, you were gainfully

103
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 1: employed at the Coast Guard based shipyard. Now, I want

104
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: to go back to your time at food Line during

105
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,280
Speaker 1: high school. You worked there for a short while with

106
00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,480
Speaker 1: one of the victims in this case, right, Devana Byers.

107
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 1: Is that where the two of you first met.

108
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 2: I met Devana Bias in junior high school and we

109
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 2: pretty much hung with different crowd. She was always extremely beautiful,

110
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,840
Speaker 2: extremely popular, being laid on. She worked at food Lye

111
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 2: with me for maybe three months, and I probably didn't

112
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,680
Speaker 2: see her again until I was about twenty five years old.

113
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 1: And at that time you two became romantically involved, but

114
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,320
Speaker 1: that unfortunately got cut short, most likely by the circumstances

115
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 1: in her life surrounding the father of her five year

116
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 1: old daughter, Kia, a man named Nathaniel Skeete Richardson who

117
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 1: was a major player in the Portsmouth drug game and

118
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,480
Speaker 1: was under federal indictment at the time.

119
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 2: But before he got his federal drug indictment, he had

120
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 2: a long list of charges, a lot of them violent.

121
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,719
Speaker 2: Even one of the charges was the shooting death of

122
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 2: his girlfriend an unborn child, and he went on to

123
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,520
Speaker 2: getting out on a knee and the dollar lond.

124
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,720
Speaker 1: So this is a young guy who's already a suspect

125
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,799
Speaker 1: in the killing of the mother of his unborn child.

126
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 1: And he's got a lot of money. He probably paid

127
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand cash on that million dollars to get

128
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 1: himself out. Maybe he put up the whole million, I

129
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: don't know, but one way another he was loaded. He

130
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 1: was making more money in a month than most of

131
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: the police officers were making in the year at that

132
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: time back in Portsmouth, so clearly, had he chosen to

133
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,960
Speaker 1: he had more than enough money to corrupt a local

134
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 1: officer into giving him a pass or even offering him

135
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 1: protection from the law.

136
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 3: Possibly, I wouldn't be surprised. Back in those days, not

137
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 3: with Portsmouth. It wasn't uncommon for police to be on payrolls,

138
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,680
Speaker 3: especially he's drug kingpins back in those days.

139
00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 1: From what I understand, at twenty two or twenty three

140
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 1: years olds, Keith Richardson had so much money that he

141
00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: had developed a money laundering scheme involving there which is

142
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: a trade of expensive cars, and one of those trades

143
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: involved Divana and eventually the FEDS approached her, threatening her

144
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 1: with money laundering chargers if she didn't cooperate in their

145
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 1: prosecution of Skeete Richardson, who was under federal indictment for

146
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: a laundry list of drug charges, conspiracy, et cetera.

147
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 2: I told her I felt like considering the people that

148
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 2: they were asking her to talk about and testify against,

149
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was in her best interest. And

150
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 2: I told her, you know, the moneyliner in charges that

151
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 2: considered white collar crimes, you may do two or three

152
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 2: years and you can start your life over. She wasn't

153
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 2: interested in hearing it. She wasn't trying to do a

154
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 2: single day.

155
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: It was that decision to testify against him that was

156
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 1: more than likely what led to her death. So she

157
00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,440
Speaker 1: was subpoena to appear in court, and she did.

158
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 2: And then what happened About a week or two before

159
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 2: she was killed, she went to either Mississippi or Alabama,

160
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 2: or to spend some time with family down there. And

161
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 2: after she came back, she asked me if I would

162
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,040
Speaker 2: be willing to move with her to Mississippi or Alabama

163
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 2: after she finished cooperating with the FBI. And I'm be

164
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 2: honest with you, I considered it when I didn't want

165
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,160
Speaker 2: to have to leave my home under those circumstances. I

166
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:14,600
Speaker 2: don't had nothing to do with it.

167
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 1: So at this point even though you two were still

168
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: occasionally sleeping together, you had created some distance between you

169
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 1: and Devanna, hardly the actions of a jealous boyfriend, as

170
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,559
Speaker 1: the state would later paint you when you were prosecuted

171
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 1: for what happened in the aftermath of her testimony in

172
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 1: this federal drug trial. So let's get to that. This

173
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,559
Speaker 1: was the night of July nineteenth into the twentieth of

174
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,239
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, just two weeks after she had testified

175
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 1: against her baby's father, who was, of course the drug kingpin.

176
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,560
Speaker 1: Now apparently she had been with her parents earlier that evening,

177
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: went home with her five year old daughter, Kia, and

178
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,439
Speaker 1: a man named Leon Face Porter. That was his nickname. Face.

179
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 1: Kia had gone to bed. Then around midnight, an ear

180
00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,440
Speaker 1: witness her gunshots. Around four am. Kia called her grandfather

181
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,960
Speaker 1: after discuss her mother and mister Porter were dead. Police

182
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 1: found that the outside door and apartment door had been

183
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,840
Speaker 1: busted open. Divana was found by the foot of the bed,

184
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head. Mister Porter was

185
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,680
Speaker 1: found lying on the bed and he had been shot

186
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,560
Speaker 1: in the face, as if he had been sitting on

187
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 1: the edge of the bed when he was shot.

188
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,440
Speaker 2: I woke up to my page of going off back

189
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,439
Speaker 2: to back to back to back to back. The ruma

190
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 2: was that Divonna and I had gotten murdered. Once they

191
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,000
Speaker 2: found out that I hadn't gotten killed, because the nature

192
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 2: of our relationship where we were still sleeping with each

193
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 2: other from time to time, I became a suspect.

194
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 4: They tried to say it was a crime of passion

195
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 4: a jealous boyfriend, but those two people were shot execution

196
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,360
Speaker 4: style only once.

197
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 3: And they'd know that she'd just testified against the biggest

198
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,960
Speaker 3: drug dealer in Portsmouth.

199
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 1: Virginia, right even though Divana's baby's father, Nathaniel Skeete Richardson,

200
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 1: was the logical suspect. They pursued Terry anyway. But you

201
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 1: had seen a movie with your sister the night before,

202
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,280
Speaker 1: then went to your parents' house to pick up some

203
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,199
Speaker 1: mail before spending the night at your sister's, And when

204
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: you woke up to your page er just blowing up,

205
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: you called some friends, found out what had happened, and

206
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,679
Speaker 1: you and your sister went to Divanda's parents' house.

207
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 2: Can I agreed to talk to the police, and at

208
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,559
Speaker 2: some point in time, Detective Huntington and Detective beach Look

209
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 2: showed up at Divanna's house.

210
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: So they asked you to accompany them to the detectives

211
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,920
Speaker 1: Euroa and you were, I would say, as cooperative as

212
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 1: you possibly could be. At first, you know.

213
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,599
Speaker 2: Asked me a few questions, asked me about my whereabouts

214
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 2: that they and then they got around to ask me

215
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 2: if I owned any firearms, which I told him I

216
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,959
Speaker 2: did and gave him a list of the firearms. They

217
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 2: asked me if I had any problem with them running

218
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 2: ballistics tests on them. I had the guns they delivered

219
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 2: to the police department, I can send into the gunshot

220
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:48,640
Speaker 2: residue tests, right.

221
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 3: They tested his guns, they tested his fingerprints. Nothing matched.

222
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 2: They asked me if I had any problem taking a

223
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 2: lot of detective tests, which I did and at the.

224
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 1: Time, yeah, agreed to the light detective test. And you

225
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: also told him where he could find your other firearm

226
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: at the Portsmouth Big Tackle and Pawn shop.

227
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,959
Speaker 2: Detective Huntington went there to try to retrieve my block

228
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 2: from the shop, and I think the lady's name was

229
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,559
Speaker 2: Kathleen half Cock, and he told her personally that he

230
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,960
Speaker 2: was there to get my gun because it was used

231
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 2: in a murder. Luckily, she had the presence of mind

232
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,960
Speaker 2: to ask when did the murders take place? After he

233
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,320
Speaker 2: told her when the murders took place, she told him

234
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 2: that it was no way possible that weapon could have

235
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 2: been used and that crime because they had been hi

236
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,680
Speaker 2: the shop prior to the crime taking place.

237
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 1: So it seems that Detective Huntington had already pretty much

238
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: decided that you were the focus of his investigation, despite

239
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,000
Speaker 1: the fact that you had been cooperative. There was nothing

240
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: that was a match for you. They're alibizing, there was

241
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 1: nothing that pointed in your direction anyway. You started getting

242
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:51,439
Speaker 1: wind of this.

243
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 2: Right Detective Huntington at one point in time, he actually

244
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 2: told my sister that he had been informed by several

245
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 2: individuals that I was running around in the street bragging

246
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,079
Speaker 2: that I had committed the murders. And I called the

247
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,480
Speaker 2: Detective Huntington back and asked him what was he talking about,

248
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,960
Speaker 2: because I hadn't been talking to anybody. I told him

249
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 2: straight up, I said, look, it seems like you are

250
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 2: more concerned with listening to romas that you're hearing in

251
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,559
Speaker 2: the street versus taking what you have at the crime,

252
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 2: seeing the actual evidence and using that is your starting

253
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 2: point to start your investigation. And do your job. So

254
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 2: then after we had their conversation, he asked me, would

255
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 2: I still be willing to come in and take the

256
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 2: Lotti tech the test the next day. I told him

257
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,040
Speaker 2: I was not interested in taking the Lotti tech the test.

258
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 2: Instead of him doing his job, it seemed like he

259
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 2: was more interested in trying to hang these crimes on me.

260
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,320
Speaker 1: So now things are heated between you and this detective,

261
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 1: but he's got nothing on you. Nothing connects you to

262
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 1: this murder besides your previous relationship with the deceased. And

263
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 1: there's definitely a much more motivated and likely suspect in

264
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 1: the mix, But for now the case went cold. The

265
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,840
Speaker 1: summer was coming to a close, and at this time,

266
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 1: two guys that you knew in junior high, Darryl and

267
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 1: Eric Cook, had gotten involved in bankrupt They were awaiting

268
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 1: charges on two separate incidents at bank robbery in Chesapeake

269
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,240
Speaker 1: and then another one in Portsmouth, and the second one

270
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 1: involved to shootout with the police and Eric Cook. He

271
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,000
Speaker 1: was looking to trade information for leniency.

272
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,400
Speaker 3: Seems to me that mister Eric Cook made his living

273
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 3: doing that.

274
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: So while that part of the story is simmering in

275
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 1: the background, the entire Hobbs family was headed to Franklin,

276
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080
Speaker 1: Virginia for a family reunion on Friday, August thirtieth, when

277
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 1: Terry received a traffic ticket on his ride out there,

278
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: and that ticket was issued around six forty five pm

279
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: near Franklin, which is only about an hour's drive outside

280
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 1: of the Portsmouth, Virginia Beach area.

281
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 2: Well, you have to remember this is on a holiday weekend.

282
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 2: We get beast traffic and people coming in from out

283
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 2: of state. There would be about a two and a

284
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 2: half to three hours draft fighting at traffic.

285
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: So this traffic ticket out in Franklin at six forty

286
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 1: five pm makes it extremely unlikely that you could even

287
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 1: be physically available to commit a bank robbery in Virginia

288
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: Beach a little after four pm that same afternoon. Now,

289
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 1: this isn't the same bank robbery that Eric and Daryl

290
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 1: Cook were arrested for. This is a totally separate incident.

291
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 1: This was August thirtieth, nineteen ninety six, after four pm

292
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 1: in Virginia Beach. A black man in his mid twenties

293
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 1: with a baseball hat, sunglasses, a thick go tee, and

294
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 1: a dark blue backpack entered the first Virginia Bank on

295
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 1: the corner of Virginia Beach Boulevard and Kings Grant Round.

296
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 1: He revealed a gun in his waistband, but he never

297
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 1: drew it. The bank teller mis Barrard complied with his

298
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 1: demands and handed over about eight hundred dollars in small bills,

299
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 1: and the robber fled the scene. Now, this is a bank,

300
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 1: so they've got all kinds of surveillance footage, of course,

301
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 1: and screenshots of this robber.

302
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 3: And I've seen the pictures. There's no way you can

303
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 3: look at those photos and say Terry Hobbs did it.

304
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 2: At that time, I couldn't even grow a full beat it.

305
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,120
Speaker 2: I had a peach flods mustache and that was pretty

306
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 2: much it. With a guy who ractually robbed the bank

307
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 2: had a full mustache and go tee that was so

308
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 2: fake that you couldn't see that a drop of skin

309
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 2: through his mustache or go tee.

310
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 3: On top of that, the guy wasn't wearing any gloves.

311
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 3: To the transcripts, his hands were over the glass the case.

312
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 3: There in the bank, they ran the fingerprints. Guess what,

313
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,840
Speaker 3: Terry's fingerprints didn't match anything there.

314
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 1: Very soon after the robbery, when shown a photo array

315
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,320
Speaker 1: with Terrence's picture. The bank teller Ms Berrard and a

316
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,960
Speaker 1: bank employee named Genie Chaplin both said that they couldn't

317
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: make a positive ID due to the assailant having worn

318
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 1: a hat, sunglasses, and a thick cotee, but somehow that

319
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,160
Speaker 1: later changed, so no ID, no fingerprint match where there

320
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 1: definitely were fingerprints left to the scene. But now here

321
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 1: comes Eric Cook, a guy Terry hasn't spoken to since

322
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 1: junior high school who's facing his own bank robbery charges

323
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 1: as well as the attempted murder of a police officer

324
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 1: from Virginia Beach City Jail. And he was clearly looking

325
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: to trade information for leniency. But I thought that he

326
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 1: had robbed a bank in Portsmouth.

327
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 2: He was on a courtesy hole, in particular crestody in

328
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 2: Virginia Beach because when he was an imforceable city jail

329
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 2: of the city which he attempted to committed bank robbery,

330
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 2: and when he was in the jail block, any person

331
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: that was in the sale with him or in the

332
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 2: par with him, he would get on the phone and

333
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: call crime solversts and say that these people were confessing

334
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 2: the committing crimes. So it eventually got around and the

335
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 2: whole car had turned on him and beat him within

336
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 2: the ench of his life, and he had to be hospitalized.

337
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 2: And after he was released from medical treatment, he was

338
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,959
Speaker 2: put in Virginia Beach City Jail in protective custody, and

339
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 2: that's where he called Crime Solvi was once again from me.

340
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 2: Even at the expense of almost losing his life for

341
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 2: baron false witness against people, he still hadn't learned his lesson.

342
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 1: So he goes from Portsmouth Jail under Detective Huntington's jurisdiction

343
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 1: to Virginia Beach who are a friend of Huntington's. A

344
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,680
Speaker 1: detective named Chris Moleen was working the August thirtieth bank

345
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 1: robbery and Eric Cook called Crime Solvers with information that

346
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 1: just so happened to benefit both detectives.

347
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 2: He claims he called me. He said that I had

348
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 2: told him that I had robbed the bank whiching a Beach,

349
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 2: and that I had also murdered Devana Bias and Leon Porte.

350
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: But this alleged call between you and Eric Cook would

351
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 1: have been made from a jail phone. Not only would

352
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: it have been recorded and made for some really compelling

353
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 1: evidence a trial, but it also would have shown up

354
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,159
Speaker 1: on your phone records if in fact it ever took place.

355
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,679
Speaker 4: So I got my phone records during that time and

356
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 4: it showed no calls from no institution on there.

357
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 2: Man didn't even have my phone number, couldn't even tell

358
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 2: you what my phone number was.

359
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,360
Speaker 1: So this phone call just simply never took place. And

360
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, calls to crime stoppers are anonymous. But yet

361
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: instead of the authorities paying a visit to Terry to

362
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,400
Speaker 1: see what he had to say about these allegations, somehow

363
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 1: Detective Huntington's buddy in Virginia Beach, Detective Chris Malin knew

364
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 1: exactly who to go visit in the Virginia Beach City jail.

365
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 1: So one can only surmise that this was a plan

366
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 1: that was between Mouleen Huntington and their highly incentivized witness,

367
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 1: Eric Cook to make a quasi anonymous call to crime solvers.

368
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 1: But there's something else that's interesting about the interviews with

369
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: Eric Cook.

370
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 2: Every single interview that I have, there were copies of

371
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 2: statements made to the police would detect the robber tuning

372
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 2: General David Beachlaw and which is I think is extremely odd.

373
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 2: Why are you sitting an interviewing this man about a

374
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 2: Virginia Beach bank robbery. You have absolutely no risk powers

375
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 2: in the city of Virginia Beach.

376
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 1: All right, this shit stinks already. But as I mentioned,

377
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: the bank teller, Missus Berrard, and the bank employee Jennie

378
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 1: Chaplin did not make an id from the photo lineup right.

379
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: The bank teller herself, she says, this guy right here

380
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,919
Speaker 2: kind of looks like the robber, but because of the

381
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: robber wane of disguise, which was the hat and sunglasses,

382
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 2: I'm not one hundred percent sure that this is the robber.

383
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 2: That is not a positive identification. But yet if you

384
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,680
Speaker 2: look at my risk warrant, it say is the reason

385
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 2: I was being charge with that crime was due to

386
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 2: the sworn statements of Christopher C. Moleen, not the actual victim,

387
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 2: Tracy Barad or Genie Chaplin.

388
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: So Detective Malene fabricated evidence and both he and Eric

389
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 1: Cook purjured themselves in order to obtain your arrest warrant.

390
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: The morning of September twenty third, nineteen ninety six, they

391
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 2: took me over to the Detectives Bureau. They kept me

392
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 2: in that room I don't know how many hours, and

393
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 2: detective hunting and came in there and tried to give

394
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 2: me the impression that I was being charge with the

395
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 2: murders and that he was going to make sure that

396
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 2: I got the death penalty. I didn't take it too kindly,

397
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 2: and I told him if he got off his ass

398
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 2: and did his fucking job and went by the evidence

399
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 2: of the crime scene, he could find out who committed

400
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: the murders and stopped harassing me. So he looks at

401
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: me and walked out the rum, and within five minutes

402
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 2: Detective Moleen came in and asked me to set aside

403
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: my conversation that I had just had with Detective Hunting,

404
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: and so then he starts talking to me about a

405
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,719
Speaker 2: bank robbert in Virginia Beach, and he said I had

406
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: already been identified as a suspect. I volunteered fingerprints to

407
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: run them if they had finger prints recovered from the

408
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 2: crime scene. Not only had they collective fingerprints from the

409
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 2: bank robbery, they had already run my fingerprints against the

410
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 2: fingerprints from the bank robbery before I was arrested, and

411
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 2: they came out negative.

412
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: They always knew you hadn't committed this crime. And sometimes

413
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: we just see a nihilistic approach from a detective where

414
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 1: they just don't care at all who they got as

415
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: long as they close the case, you know, if they

416
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: say a body for a body. But here it seems

417
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: as if all of this tension between you and Huntington

418
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: was just adding fuel to his fire. So were you

419
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: able to bond out?

420
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 2: And they took me to the Virginia Beach City jail.

421
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 2: I think I was allowed to probably close in ninety

422
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 2: days before I was able to get a bond right,

423
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 2: And I.

424
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 4: Had to get an attorney to get his bond. Ken Melvin,

425
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 4: he's a judge now, but the attornety got the bond

426
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 4: for me, and it was a fifty thousand dollars bond,

427
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 4: so he was.

428
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: Out on bond for a little while. But you couldn't

429
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: afford Ken Melvin for the full trial, and eventually you

430
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: had a quarter pointed a two. But even for someone

431
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: who was presumably overworked and underpaid, as almost all of

432
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: the public devendors in the country are, this still should

433
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: have been an easy win. You had this false statement

434
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: from Eric Cook about an alleged phone call that you

435
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: could prove never took place, and then Ms Berrard and

436
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: mss Chaplin, who never identified you. But as we so

437
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: often see, sometimes witnesses become more confident in their ideas

438
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: as the trial approaches.

439
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 2: Yes, nat goes from them not being showed them the

440
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 2: person did percent showed them the person.

441
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 3: Nine months later. How can she positively say it was

442
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 3: Terry and she couldn't do it hours after the robbery.

443
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 3: It just it just smells bad to me that she

444
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: was coached.

445
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: But Okay, your attorney could have impeached these ideas as unreliable,

446
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: considering the fact that the witnesses had not been able

447
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: to make an id in the immediate aftermath of the robbery,

448
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: just hours after it took place, as well as the

449
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 1: fact that the bank robber face and had or covered

450
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: by a hat, sunglasses, and the thick goatee that Terry

451
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have grown. Plus, we know that you were

452
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: out of town en route to your family reunion in Franklin, Virginia.

453
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: You had, I mean, for christ sakes, you had a

454
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: traffic ticket to prove it, as well as the officer

455
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: who issued the ticket. Now I understand that he was

456
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: called as a witness to corroborate your whereabouts.

457
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: Right when I walked in the courtroom, that day, Blow

458
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: and behold Detective Huntington and Golan having a discussion with

459
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: this police officer that issued me the traffic ticket before

460
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: he ever takes the stand. He takes the stand and

461
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 2: states that he can't remember if I'm the person that

462
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: he actually gives you the ticket too. So my next

463
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 2: request was is that he give us the original copy

464
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: of the ticket. Well, the original copy of the ticket

465
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: supposedly was destroyed, and he supposedly had a gallon of

466
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: paint in the trunk of his car and had an

467
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: accident and the paint spilled on his paperwork, and therefore

468
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: the ticket was no longer available. But I find that

469
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: hard to believe.

470
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: Sounds totally made up to me. But still there's more

471
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: that could have been done to combat the state. Besides

472
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: what should have been an easy job impeaching the credibility

473
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: of the IDs, you had this patently bogus statement from

474
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: Eric Cook about an alleged phone call confession that you

475
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: could conclusively prove never took place. So what happened with that?

476
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: Apparently, after my attorney showed the Como frattorney to copy

477
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 2: of my phone records, the phone records reflected heiit and

478
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 2: never even called me. They allowed Earriit to change his testimony,

479
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 2: and they also sealed his statement that he made to

480
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: the Virginia Beach police because of the discovery when my

481
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: mom had a fool from the archives. They did not

482
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: allow us to see any statement he ever made to

483
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: the police.

484
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: So all you knew was that he alleged that you

485
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: confessed on a phone call. This wasn't some opportunity to

486
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: cross examine and create doubt when you submitted the phone

487
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: records to evidence as proof of the lies, that would

488
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: and should have shut down their lying star witness completely.

489
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: So the state just sidestepped your defense with mora lies.

490
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: But you had no idea that they were going to

491
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: do this. How could you have predicted that your defense

492
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: was prepared to disprove the lie about the phone call,

493
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: but was not prepared to combat this new lie. The

494
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: evidence was not shared with the defense. It's just perfect

495
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: example of a Brady violation right out in the open,

496
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: plain sight. So what did he change his story.

497
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: To He changed his story and see it that he

498
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 2: walked up on a conversation that me and his brother

499
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: was plotting to rob his bank in Virginia Beach, and

500
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: we said and planned it out and detailed myself and

501
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: his brother and the commonwealths attorney basically vouch for his credibility,

502
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: and how he was coming full at great risk to

503
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: hisself because of me being an extremely dangerous individual, and

504
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 2: that he was putting hisself at great risk to protect

505
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: the citizens of Virginia Beach from people like myself.

506
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: So not a bank or arber trading false testimony for leniency,

507
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: but actually a concerned citizen was nothing to gain.

508
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: Jess a concerned citizen. They were aughted by the judge

509
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: not to bring up his criminal history, none of his

510
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: prior crimes because in Chesapeake his citizen had been postponed

511
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: and imports of his citizen had been postponed, and under

512
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: the guide lines of the law until he's officially sentenced

513
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: by a judge, he is not a convicted felain. He

514
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: was actually one before he started his line of question,

515
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: and not to ask him any questions about where he's

516
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: housed at or anything that would lead him into the

517
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: devultion to the jewelry. That he was arrested and convicted

518
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 2: of any type of crime for his testimony. He was

519
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: given three years and thirty days for the attempted bank robber,

520
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: re imporcement, the juse of farms and the commission of

521
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: a felony, and the attempted capital murder of a police officer.

522
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: Jesus, I mean even the attempted murder of a police

523
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: officer usually carries you know, a little bit.

524
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: More than that, of course, but his statue on a

525
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: murder is either life or death. He did three years

526
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: and thirty days and then only was sentenced for the

527
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 2: Chesapeake bank robbery after he was released from prison. By

528
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: the time they suspended all this time, he only is

529
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: sixtys and eight months. So between the two robbery, the

530
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: three use of farms and the commissioner of felony and

531
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: the attempt capital murder of police office, he got less

532
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: than ten years.

533
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: So your lawyer wasn't even allowed to bring up the

534
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: fact that this guy is receiving a huge break on

535
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: his own charges in exchange for testifying against you. This

536
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: is really dirty. So Eric Cook's statement appeared to be

537
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: corroborated by the now all of a sudden one hundred

538
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: percent sure of witnesses, and that was enough to overcome

539
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: the fingerprint evidence of the contrary, which by that I

540
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: mean the fact that you certainly were not there.

541
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: The fingerprints that were recovered. We couldn't even really go

542
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: into that too much because of the cong walth attorney. She

543
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: didn't want the fingerprints entered in the evidence.

544
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: What about your attorney?

545
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: He didn't make the motion.

546
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: So the jury came to a sadly predictable conclusion.

547
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: Nobody in the jury would look at me, which I

548
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: knew that was a bad time. They came with the

549
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: guilty verity. I looked over to mo Leen and Huntington.

550
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: Huntingen winked at me and Jomio and you've made on

551
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: Tojo's gonna get you.

552
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. This episode is underwritten

553
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed

554
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: to corporate social responsibility and is making a positive difference

555
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: in the lives of its employees and in the communities

556
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: where we work and live. In light of the compelling

557
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: need for pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of

558
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG

559
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: pro Bono Program provides free legal services and other support

560
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: to underrepresented communities and individuals. So now you're convicted, but

561
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: you still had to go to sentencing. When your lawyer

562
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: still had one move left, he located Eric Bok's brother, Darryl,

563
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: who took the stand.

564
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: Darryl Cook came forward and took the stand, and my

565
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: attorney asked them some questions and basically just said his

566
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: brother was lying because he didn't want to do the time.

567
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: In the end, my lawyer made a motion that the

568
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: judge set aside the verdict and order a new trial

569
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: or overturned the conviction altogether. But the judge wasn't having

570
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: he upheld the conviction.

571
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: The fact that his brother got on the stand and

572
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: then they found phone rerecords were bogus that there was

573
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: never a call. I don't know how that did not

574
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: get overturned.

575
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: He appealed my centizen, which my guidelines was five years

576
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: and one month, immediate range point was six years and

577
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: two months. Nine years was the max, and they gave

578
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: me forty eight years and a thirty thousand dollar five.

579
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: So, in light of Eric Cook's own brother coming into

580
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: testify against him, the state star witness, which should have

581
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: really shaken their confidence in this conviction, instead of the

582
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: max of nine years, they doubled down on this tragedy

583
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: by over sentencing you. So your lawyer must have had

584
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: an appeal ready to go. I know in Virginia you've

585
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: got to get it filed within thirty days of the conviction,

586
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: though right.

587
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 4: He had a state appointed attorney that really did nothing

588
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 4: for him. Even times I would go to his office

589
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 4: to try and meet with him. I think I was

590
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 4: avoided twice. The third time I laid in wait in

591
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: the parking lot, they said he wasn't there, So I

592
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: stayed in the parking lot until he got there so

593
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 4: I could have a talk with him.

594
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: How did that conversation go?

595
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: I went up to his office with him because I

596
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 4: wanted to know what was going on. Where are we

597
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: now with the appeal? Well, and that's when he let

598
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 4: me know he didn't get it filed in time.

599
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: Author Ehnrich, who has been disbarred more than three times

600
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: for one of the very things that he did to me.

601
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 2: You know how you have a constitutional rights to an appeal,

602
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: has never had an appeal for my case in Virginia

603
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: Beach because he made the motion that he would be

604
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: filing appeal and never filed it. And I was time barred.

605
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: So my constitutional right to appeal was lost. It was

606
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: revealed later that he had a cocaine habit and he

607
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: was barely been his duties. So I know when I

608
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: when I claimed ineffect of assistance a council, that's exactly

609
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: what I had, whether the common was attorney. When they

610
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: get to filed their briefs, they claim I was only

611
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: claiming interffective assistance or council is because I was unsatisfied

612
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 2: with the outcome of my trial.

613
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: So you were time barred on the direct appeal and

614
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: denied on a clear case of ineffective assistance a council,

615
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: and therefore you were stuck to serve out a forty

616
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: eight year sentence, effectively a life sentence. Now, at this time,

617
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: Virginia made another horrendous move, which is that they did

618
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: away with parole entirely. But if your jury had not

619
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: been advised that you would never be eligible, as was

620
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: in fact the case here, you would have been what

621
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: is known as a fishback candidate. So that becomes an

622
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: issue later on and we'll explain that. So you've potentially

623
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: got parole to look forward to. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to you,

624
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: Detective Huntington was out there for several years building up

625
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: a case against you for the double homicide, and he

626
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: was talking to people you knew through your hobby of

627
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: riding motorcycles, as well as some guys that you knew

628
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: from your short time that you spent dealing drugs, and

629
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 1: Detective Huntington was working on coercing and incentivizing them to cooperate,

630
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: and eventually he was successful at finding five people who

631
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: were willing to do it by nineteen ninety nine.

632
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: Every single one of them have cases against them, and

633
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: most of them are big time drug dealers or in

634
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 3: the drug trade and they have something to gain by

635
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 3: lying on Terrence Hobbs. Detective Huntington, Yeah, he was on

636
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: a mission to convict the wrong man of these double.

637
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: Murders, Terry, Since the only thing you knew about Eric

638
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: Cook's initial statement at this point was that he had

639
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: implicated you and the robbery, and the rest of the

640
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: details were sealed, including the fact that he'd implicated you

641
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: in the double murder as well. Were you even aware

642
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: of Detective Huntington's investigation? When did you find out?

643
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: I was actually sitting in prison at Southampton Coressional Facility.

644
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 2: I'm sitting in the sale looking at television, and they

645
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: had movies on the weekend and they rented for us

646
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: to see. And one of my friends come past the

647
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: sale and he say, tee. He said, ma'am. He said,

648
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: I just saw you on the news. They just indicted

649
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: you for two council capital murder. I said, man, go

650
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: ahead with that bullshit. Stop playing, He said, Man, I

651
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't play about nothing like that. He said, turn from

652
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: a movie channel. He said. He turned the NBCCBSORABC. Every

653
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: time they show a commercial, they're showing your face on

654
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: the news, and you're being charged in a cold case.

655
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it. And then we thought back to

656
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 4: what had happened that night. He and his sister had

657
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 4: gone to the movie.

658
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: Right. He was with his sister at the movies and

659
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: came by your house for some mail, then went back

660
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: to his sisters. She accounted for his arrival around midnight,

661
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: the same time that an ear witness heard gunshots from

662
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Havanna Buyer's apartment. She and Leon Porter were each shot once,

663
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: execution style.

664
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 4: She had already been threatened that if she testified against

665
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 4: the drug kingpin, which was her daughter's father, then for

666
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 4: it would happened to her he had already shot and

667
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 4: killed someone else that was karing his baby before he

668
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 4: was locked up.

669
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: But rather than tracking down those leaves, Detective Huntington just

670
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: went ahead and pursued Terry, whose fingerprints again were not

671
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: found in a scene where they almost certainly should have

672
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: been considering his relationship with Divanna and Terry was more

673
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: than helpful. He came to Devana's house with his sister,

674
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 1: who was ready to vouch for his whereabouts, and all

675
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: of his guns were tested for holistics evidence. He willingly

676
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: gave his fingerprints submitted to a GSR testing. No matches

677
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: were found, and at least initially he was willing to

678
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: take a lot of detective tests, but none of that

679
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: was good enough for this Detective Huntington. It almost makes

680
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: you think that he it was doing everything he could

681
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: to avoid investigating the guy who he should have been investigating,

682
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: which was sket Richardson. So, with this lack of evidence

683
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: and clear standout suspect, Detective hunting had to get creative

684
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: and he conjured up five witnesses, but the stories weren't

685
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: quite adding up. But even with this weak ass bullshit case,

686
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: publicly they were claiming that they had five corroborating witnesses.

687
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: If you look at the newspaper article that was dated

688
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: for what were the first nineteen ninety nine in the

689
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: Virginian Pilot newspaper. They were requesting the death penalty, and

690
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: they even came to me with a twenty year plead

691
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: to try to get me the plead guilty for two

692
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: council capital murder, and I refused to take a guilty

693
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: plead of twenty years for two murders that I had

694
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: not committed. They came back and brought a teen year

695
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: plea to me and I refused to take that as well.

696
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: They had my attorney asked me, would be any amount

697
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: of time that I would be willing to accept so

698
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: that they wouldn't have to take me to trial, and

699
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: I would not take it. I actually still have a

700
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 2: copy of the twenty year plead. They did ten year

701
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: plea verbally twenty year plea for two council of capital

702
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: murder to run k and Karen with the forty eight

703
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: years in Virginia Beach. Now the state of Virginia, there's

704
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: only two penalties for capitol murden, his life or death.

705
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: So how do you offer a man a twenty year

706
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: plea in the in turnaround, I offer him a teen

707
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: year plea for a capitol murder unless you know he

708
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 2: didn't do it.

709
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 3: Yes, they know he's not the guy. No prosecutor would

710
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: come with a ten year plea deal on a double

711
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 3: murder if they knew he committed to crime. No way, no, Hew,

712
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 3: that's just bullshit. They want to close the case.

713
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, they took him to trial knowing that the evidence

714
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: was all just incentivized testilize that started with Eric Cook.

715
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: He was so unreliable that they did not even include

716
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: him in this proceeding at all. Now, the five quote

717
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: unquote new witnesses here were Sean Saunders, Curtis Freeman, William Godwin,

718
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: Derek Blackwell, and Tyron Wallace. And we're about to destroy

719
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: all of their credibility right now.

720
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: Well Sewn Saunders, who happens to be a three time

721
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: felon and who admitted to Terry's mom after the trial

722
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 3: that he had lied to avoid going back to prison.

723
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 3: He worked with Terry on the construction job at the

724
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: Coastguard Base. He testified that he and Terry were good

725
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: friends throughout high school, but Saunders had actually dropped out

726
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 3: of school in eighth grade. According to Terry didn't see

727
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 3: him again until he worked with him on the coastguard job,

728
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: and Saunders claimed that while they were working together that

729
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 3: Terry told him that he and Devanna were breaking up

730
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 3: and that if he ever found Devona with another man,

731
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 3: he would kick in the door of an apartment if

732
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: he had to with.

733
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: Killer Seawn Sanders claimed that he told my supervisor. My

734
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: supervisor actually came to court and testis out on my behalf.

735
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: He said we were never alone together, that he worked

736
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: in one place and I worked in another.

737
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: A year before the trial. Interestingly, Saunders had been subpoenat,

738
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: but he didn't tell you authorities about Terry's alleged emissions.

739
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 3: Then you know, it was only the day before Terry's

740
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: trial after Saunders again was arrested for selling drugs, the

741
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 3: Saunders come up with the story that Terry threatened to

742
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: kick in Divana's door and kill her if he saw

743
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: her with another man.

744
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: Saunders testify that Terry had said he would park his

745
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: motorcycle around back and kick in the back door and

746
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: use a silencer on a gun. But there's a problem

747
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: with this that earwitness would have definitely heard a motorcycle.

748
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: And importantly, there is no back door, So he would

749
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: have made that mistake to say I'm going to kick

750
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 3: in the back door knowing there is no back door.

751
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: Right, Terry knew that apartment well and never would have

752
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: mentioned a non existent back door. Now, Curtis Freeman, he

753
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: was facing home invasion and robbery charges. What did he

754
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: say to save his own skin?

755
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 3: Freeman's testifying that he was familiar with Terry's motorcycle, which

756
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 3: he described as being a neon greenish color and purple

757
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: and allegedly unique because of his bright colors, despite Terry

758
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 3: riding with many others who also had these colorful sport motorcycles.

759
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 3: He also testified that he noticed Terry's motorcycle parked around

760
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 3: the block from Devona's apartment on the night of the murders,

761
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: and that he said Terry had a notoriously loud motorcycle

762
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: because of the modifications.

763
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: So now the bike is parked around the block, and again,

764
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: where was the ear witness on this extremely loud motorcycle.

765
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: They heard the gunshots, but no notoriously loud motorcycles speeding away.

766
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: They somehow missed that.

767
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: One Freeman was given probation for a home invasion and

768
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: robbery because of his cooperation.

769
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: And Lenny can back me up here. But these are

770
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: not the types of sentences that Virginia is known for

771
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: doling out for home invasions or anything for that matter.

772
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Lenny got over a thousand years for stealing

773
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: just a little bit over five hundred dollars.

774
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

775
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: So now we're at William Godwin or Bill Godwin. Right,

776
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: he was in federal custody drug possession conspiracy charges with

777
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: the seventeen and a half year sentence. Initially he had

778
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: said that he didn't know anything about the murders, but

779
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: knew that Terry was innocent. What did he say to

780
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: get released after just two and a half years?

781
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: Like, he claimed that he was with me and he

782
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: saw me threaten Greg Elliott with a far arm because

783
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: Greg was at her house visit in her and Greg

784
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: Elliott came the courte and subpoena as a Commonwealt attorney witness,

785
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: and once he took his sting and basically said that

786
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: everything that Beal testified to was a lie.

787
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: So there goes lie number one. Then Godwin testified that

788
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: he had been told by a man named Daryl Evans

789
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: about a conversation that Evans had overheard in which Terry

790
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: had confessed to the murders.

791
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: Daryl Evan has come to court and testify it and

792
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: refused Bial's testimony.

793
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: So there goes Godwin, making the Commonwealth look stupid again.

794
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 1: He also alleged that Terry had basically confessed to him

795
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: about the murders. But I think Godwin had already told

796
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: too many lies that had been refuted in court for

797
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: anyone to take him seriously about anything. So on to

798
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: Derek Blackwell, he was in federal custody on charges of

799
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: being a drug kingpen and running a criminal enterprise, facing

800
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: thirty years to life. Initially, he had told police that

801
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: knew nothing about the crimes, but then.

802
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: He lies and says about two to three weeks after

803
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: the killings, he and Terry were at a gas station

804
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: in Portsmouth and Terry unsolicited now admits to shooting Devana

805
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: and Porter. He first offered a story about Terry's alleged

806
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: confession about two months after he had been arrested in

807
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 3: November of nineteen ninety seven for federal drug conspiracy charges.

808
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: Blackwell only served three and a half years as a

809
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: result of his cooperation. Interesting with Blackwell's testimony. You know,

810
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: he said Terry was with him at his house all

811
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 3: day until seven pm on July nineteenth, nineteen ninety six.

812
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 3: That's directly contradicted by Terry's work time card at the

813
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: Coastguard base that day.

814
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: Just another fucking liar that to his description of Terry's

815
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: bike as primarily black. I thought it was Neon, green

816
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: and purple. So enough of this guy. Last, but not least,

817
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: Tyrone Wallace, who was in federal custody facing drug conspiracy charges.

818
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: Evidence is clear that the door was kicked in. Wallace

819
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 3: testified that Terry admitted he killed Divanna in Porter after

820
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: he parked his bike. Now it's a couple of blocks away,

821
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: not behind, a couple of blocks away all the night

822
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 3: of the murders, and entered the apartment with a duplicate key.

823
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: Yet we know the door had been kicked in. He

824
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: also said that Terry had said that he shot Porter

825
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 1: while he was lying in bed, and that he shot

826
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: Divana from under the chin.

827
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: But the medical examiner established at Porter was shot in

828
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: the face while sitting at the end of the bed

829
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 3: and Devona had been shot in the back of the head.

830
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: So contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. You know, he faced

831
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 3: twenty two years and served less than four.

832
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: Come on, man, it's just exponential injustice on top of

833
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: an already insane double wrongful conviction. But I mean, couldn't

834
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: the jury see how these guys their stories just weren't

835
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: matching up, That their stories didn't match the back to

836
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: the crime, and in some cases their lives were called

837
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: out by both defense and prosecution witnesses that this was

838
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: not some jealous boyfriend case, but rather a homicide that

839
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: was in retribution for Divana's testimony against her acts.

840
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the common of the turning kept down playing it

841
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: is that would not be enough motive compared to the

842
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: evidence that they had. And the only evidence that they

843
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: had against me was the false testimony of these witnesses.

844
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: And I guess the only thing and I could think

845
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: that would have caused me to get a guilty verdict

846
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: is that the jury would feel like, well, all of

847
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: these guys can't be lyned, even though they were. They

848
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: had tried to killed me without killing my body. They

849
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: killed me by killing my reputation, which in turn caused

850
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: me to be found guilty of these crimes, and they

851
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: thought that this is gonna be the end for me,

852
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: that they were gonna lock me up for basically thirteen

853
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: hundred years, and that was gonna be the end of

854
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: my story.

855
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: And that's a number that Lendy is all too familiar with.

856
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: These insane numbers really started after they abolished parole in Virginia.

857
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: Right when was that?

858
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 3: Well, guys had opportunities at parole well before ninety five

859
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: January ninety five. So even in a case like this,

860
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: if you had a life sentence, you start going up

861
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 3: for parole in twelve years, two life sentences, you still

862
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 3: get an opportunity to go up you just it would

863
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: take around twenty years. Guys still had a shot if

864
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: you weren't given life without the possibility of par The

865
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 3: life sentences didn't nail you until after they abolished parole.

866
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: And so now if you get life, it means exactly

867
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: that life.

868
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: Wow, and you have how long to follow your appeal

869
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: In Virginia.

870
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 3: You got thirty day to get that appeal in immediately.

871
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: So Terry, I'm going to imagine that you didn't just

872
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: want to take this insane sentence lying down, but with

873
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: two wrongful convictions and this seriously short amount of time

874
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: for a meaningful appeal to be filed, no potential DNA testing,

875
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: no possibility of parole. What happened? Did your lawyer screw

876
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: it up and get time barred again?

877
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: We actually went through there and Jordan time field process

878
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: and that one single jealous would overturn the convictions.

879
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: I mean, post conviction litigation is largely based on whether

880
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: or not you receive due process and if any constitutional

881
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: rights were violated. I'm sure in effective assistance could be

882
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: argued here, but accompanying actual innocence claims can be helpful

883
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: with any other claims. And the only evidence against you

884
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: at the second trial were these inconsistent and patently and

885
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: obviously false statements from these incentivized witnesses. Was all of

886
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: that pointed out to them?

887
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: Yes, all of this stuff was pointed out, But to

888
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: say the fact that the matter is a lot of

889
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 2: these people don't want to point to saying that another

890
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: prosecutor or police officer certain say that they were. And

891
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: that's just the sad fact of the matter. Without the

892
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: support of my family, I believe I would have lost

893
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: myself in here because I'm gonna tell you something. I'm

894
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: surrounded in this small amount of acreage of this penitentiary.

895
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: I'm around from everything that you could possibly think of, murderers, rapists,

896
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: child molester's necro vctiality. I'm around the worst of the worst.

897
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: Had I not had the love and support of my

898
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,959
Speaker 2: family sticking by me and just they received that unconditional love,

899
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 2: it kept me from losing myself in here. To be

900
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: completely honest with you, I don't know what kind of

901
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: person I would be now had I been left to

902
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: living in this environment of violence and blood and sweat

903
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: and tears. People on the team people commit suicide, hanging

904
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: themselves because they could not do this time. I do

905
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: this time every single day, alcohol free, disease free, drug

906
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: free of any of those things. So the things that

907
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: most people do in here to deal with the reality,

908
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 2: I deal with sober. That's the only way I can

909
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: have a clear head to do what I need to

910
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 2: do to try to mount the best defense that I

911
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: can for myself. And when people like yourself are interested

912
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: in hearing my story, I can tell the team, and of.

913
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: Course people like Lennie who heard your story. If not

914
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: for him, we wouldn't be having this recording session right now.

915
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: And if I hadn't read about his story, of course

916
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: in the New York Times, I'm not sure any of

917
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: us would be talking right now. Lenny. How did you

918
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: and Terry end up meeting?

919
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: I was transferred to not Away Correctional Center in nineteen

920
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 3: ninety eight, and I think I were. Yeah, we met

921
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 3: around early two thousands. And Terry, because of what he's

922
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 3: been through, he is totally aloof walking around with his

923
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 3: grid on his face every day, and most people really

924
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 3: didn't like Terry inside because of that, and so he

925
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,479
Speaker 3: just kind of gravitated towards me. I was a leader

926
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 3: in the church and doing a lot of teaching and mentoring,

927
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: and a little bit at a time he started sharing

928
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: with me his story and I would tell him, I says, well, Terry,

929
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 3: what are you doing about this? Well, at that time

930
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 3: that's I was working on a conditional pardon. I said, man,

931
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 3: your case is so bad that I could not possibly

932
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: see anybody reading all of this and not doing something

933
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: about it. And so eventually I would be granted my pardon.

934
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 3: On January twelfth, twenty eighteen, my wife had already gotten

935
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: hired by attorney John A. Cockshull. He added me to

936
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 3: the team the very next day after my release. Once

937
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: Attorney Cockshull created what he called the Pardon Petition Team,

938
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: Terry Hobbs was our first client, so we've been working

939
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: with him since the end of twenty eighteen.

940
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: So what happened with the conditional pardon petition.

941
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 3: We filed his original pardon petition in twenty twenty, just

942
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: based on the bogus bank robbery. They turned it down

943
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 3: because they believed that he was a fishback candidate. Fishback

944
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 3: is for guys who were sentenced between ninety five and

945
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 3: two thousand, and the jury wasn't instructed that parole had

946
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 3: been abolished, So these guys are getting these long sentences

947
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: and the jurors don't know that there's no parole in Virginia,

948
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 3: so they were under the assumption that Terry was a

949
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 3: fishback candidate. In hindsight, now I think we probably should

950
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 3: have done the double murders first, because it was those

951
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: double murders that removed Terry from being a fish back

952
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 3: eligible for parole. If we could have gotten the double

953
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 3: murders removed with the pardon, that would have just left

954
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: the bank robbery which would have allowed him to go

955
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 3: up for parole, turned down his original pardon petition, and

956
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: we had to wind up calling Missus Trudy Harris, who's

957
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: the chief investigator over the parole board, informing her about

958
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: all of this, and they would eventually reinstate his petition.

959
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, because he's an innocent man of both

960
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 3: of those things. We went ahead and added an addendum

961
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 3: to that original pardon petition showing both the bank robbery

962
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: and the double murders as being bogus. And that was

963
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 3: November twenty twenty one. So in essence, his petition, from

964
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 3: what I understand, hasn't reached the stage of a full

965
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 3: investigation yet and we're waiting on that.

966
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: And Lenny, normally we speak with our guest attorney. I'm

967
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: very happy to speak with you. But there's another sad

968
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: note to this story about why we're not speaking with him.

969
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: And I'm talking, of course about the late great John

970
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: Cattishaw Well.

971
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, Attorney John Cockshall. He passed away June nineteenth, twenty

972
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 3: twenty two. It was totally unexpected. We were just visiting

973
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 3: him in April of twenty twenty two. We all went

974
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: to an awards event where he was awarded Attorney of

975
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 3: the Year. Vandy and I were awarded Authors of the Year,

976
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 3: and we just saw him. His wife had just passed away,

977
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 3: probably three to four months before he did, and we

978
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 3: could kind of tell that, you know, he that took

979
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 3: the wind out of his sales.

980
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: Now, I'm sure he would have loved to get Terry

981
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: over the line before he passed, But you and your wife,

982
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: Andy are going to get him there, as you have

983
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: done for so many others already. And I understand John

984
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: trusted you both implicitly actually making you too fearless warriors.

985
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: A branch of his firm.

986
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: We were the western branch of the John A Coxual

987
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 3: law firm. Yes, and so yeah, we obtained eleven pardons

988
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: since twenty eighteen, including my own.

989
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: You're an inspirational guy, and I know you can do it.

990
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: So I know it was Terry mccalloff that pardoned you,

991
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: and Governor Northen was also very active in this arena.

992
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: Now we have Governor Glenn youenkin.

993
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 3: The thing about the pardon process when you're running a

994
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 3: state as big as Virginia, co'm and wealth as big

995
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 3: as Virginia, they just don't have time to investigate, so

996
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 3: he appoints people to do that. Jrudy Harris being the

997
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 3: chief investigator for the Parole Board over pardons, and then

998
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 3: you have five parole board members, so he delegates that

999
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 3: task onto them, and they make a recommendation to the governor.

1000
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: Nine out of ten times, unless it's something high profile

1001
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: and the governor just doesn't want it to taint his

1002
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: political career, he goes with the recommendation of that parole

1003
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 3: board and those investigators.

1004
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: Well, I hope miss Harris is listening. We implore her,

1005
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: don't listen to us. Follow the evidence. Look at the

1006
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: flimsy false testimony in this case that was refuted by

1007
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: other witnesses, and the physical evidence plus the more likely suspects.

1008
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: I think you'll find that this should be an easy decision.

1009
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 1: Now we're going to have action steps linked in the bio,

1010
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: and I also asked that our audience scroll down and

1011
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: get involved. I always say pressure breaks pipes, people, and

1012
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: we need you now. And with that, we're gonna go

1013
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: to my favorite part of the show. Of course, this

1014
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: is the part we called closing arguments, where I turned

1015
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: my microphone off and let you guys have the final

1016
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: say so I'm gonna kick back in my chair with

1017
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: my headphones on. Lenny Singleton once you go first, then

1018
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: Ms Catherine Hobbs, and of course Terry, I'm gonna save

1019
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: you for last. Thank you all for being here, and

1020
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,760
Speaker 1: now I'm just gonna sit back and listen.

1021
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 3: This could happen to anyone. He wasn't a choir boy,

1022
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 3: but he wasn't a bank robber, and he wasn't a killer.

1023
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 3: This just goes to show that our criminal justice system

1024
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 3: still has a very long ways to go, especially as

1025
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 3: it relates to African American men. Sadly, we make up

1026
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 3: about sixty percent of the prison system in Virginia and

1027
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: something needs to change. We need to get involved. We

1028
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 3: need to talk to our elected officials, get them involved

1029
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: with fixing the things that we know are wrong. Using

1030
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 3: convicted feelings as your only evidence in any case, just

1031
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 3: can't take someone's word for it, especially if they're getting

1032
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 3: a deal. You got to have more evidence than.

1033
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 4: That he got involved with the wrong people and they

1034
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 4: just used him to gain their own freedom. I think

1035
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 4: Karl was not eve on a lot of things and

1036
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 4: they could see that, so they just used him he's

1037
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 4: a mom. I never would have did anything like this

1038
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 4: to anybody, so I didn't think nobody would do this

1039
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 4: to me, and neither did I. He needs to come home,

1040
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 4: he's grown up. He needs to spend time with his daughter,

1041
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 4: he needs to spend time with this whole family and

1042
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 4: I I'm so grateful and appreciative for what you all

1043
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 4: are doing.

1044
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Jason to take this time out

1045
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 2: to interview me, to shine a light on the injustice

1046
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: that was done to me. I wouldn't wish this on

1047
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: any person. Detective speech fool when he came to see

1048
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: me to serve the indictments on me in Southampton. They

1049
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 2: even implied that I may could help him with other

1050
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 2: cases and make my charges less or disappear altogether. I

1051
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: told him, after what I've gone through and what my

1052
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: family has gone through, I would never put anyone or

1053
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: their family through what my family Hasn't do it just

1054
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 2: to regain my freedom. I'm not that individual. I have

1055
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: to be able to look myself in the miror and

1056
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: like what I see on a daily basis. Even if

1057
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: it was to spend the rest of my life in prison,

1058
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: I had to live my life and be able to

1059
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 2: hold my head up with pride and know that I

1060
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: did not low on somebody else to ruin somebody else's

1061
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: life just to ease my suffering, because that's what they

1062
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: wanted me to do.

1063
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

1064
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,

1065
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

1066
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

1067
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

1068
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

1069
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

1070
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

1071
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

1072
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

1073
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one