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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome back to the latest episode of

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if your dad used to do this

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Speaker 1: with you, but when I was a kid, my dad

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden would be just sitting around the

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Speaker 1: house or playing a game or something, and he would say,

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Speaker 1: let's go. We're going in the car. And he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: tell me where we were going. It was just some

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Speaker 1: kind of errand or I don't know, it could have

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Speaker 1: been anything, but I guess you wanted a co pilot.

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Speaker 1: Your dad ever do that with you?

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Speaker 2: Just to go, Yeah, like to go to Pensy's to

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Speaker 2: pick the Daily number up or maybe to go down there.

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Speaker 2: I'd have to run inside as I was a runner,

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Speaker 2: So if he asked me to come along, I probably

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Speaker 2: he'd sit in the carn.

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Speaker 3: I had to go do something to pick up the

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Speaker 3: daily news.

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Speaker 2: He was a daily news guy, Dick Young and all

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Speaker 2: those guys, and so I picked things up. I guess

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Speaker 2: that was a runner as an errand boy, let's go,

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Speaker 2: and I had to do something that permitted him to

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Speaker 2: stay in the car.

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Speaker 3: Even how about this, even back in the day at.

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Speaker 2: The Diamond Lanees Bowling Alley which Michael Buzz used to own.

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Speaker 2: You're able to like I was able to walk in

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Speaker 2: the back door and say, my dad's outside. It might

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Speaker 2: have been ten and he wants a six pack of beer,

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Speaker 2: and they'd give me a six pack of beer. How

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Speaker 2: they walk out with it in a brown bag and

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Speaker 2: get back in the car.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what we're going to do today. Basically, just

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Speaker 1: jump in the car. Okay, we don't know where we're going,

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Speaker 1: but I'll give you some hints. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the latest trend in managers. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the intersection of politics and analytics, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about Peter Frampton and the Baseball Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 1: But before we get there, we got to talk about

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Speaker 1: the latest free agent, which is rookie Sasaki, twenty three

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Speaker 1: year old right hander. The Cheebo Lote Marines are going

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Speaker 1: to post him and he's available Joe to all thirty teams.

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Speaker 1: And this is not a bidding war like we saw

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Speaker 1: with Yeshnobu Yamamoto last year. This is similar to when

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Speaker 1: shoey Otani came over here as an international free agent

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Speaker 1: under the age of twenty five you can basically you

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Speaker 1: can only offer what's in your bonus pool international bonus

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Speaker 1: pool money, which is generally anywhere between two seven million dollars,

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Speaker 1: and then you start out with a major League minimum,

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Speaker 1: your first year rookie salary. So rookie Sasaki is available

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Speaker 1: to all thirty teams. What's interesting, Joe is there's a

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Speaker 1: forty five day window. That clock has not started yet.

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Speaker 1: If the Marines post him here the month of November,

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Speaker 1: he will have until November December fifteenth to sign because

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Speaker 1: there's a signing dead period between December fifteenth and January fifteenth.

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Speaker 1: And if they wait until next month to actually officially

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Speaker 1: post him, and then it will be after January fifteenth,

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Speaker 1: my guess is going to be sooner rather than later.

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Speaker 1: If I'm Sasaki, I would much rather know before the

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Speaker 1: new year, get myself acclimated with my new team, maybe

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Speaker 1: even get the spring training super early, rather than postpone that.

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Speaker 1: But that's yet to be determined. My question, Joe, is about,

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Speaker 1: you know, evaluating these Japanese pitchers coming over here. They've

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Speaker 1: done really well. Yamamoto pitched well last year. He did

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Speaker 1: have an injury in the middle of the season and Sasaki.

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you he's much bigger. He's about

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Speaker 1: six three six four two oh five. To me, the

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Speaker 1: best comp that I've seen watching him throw Joe is

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Speaker 1: Zach Wheeler. I think he's that that kind of stuff. Fastball,

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Speaker 1: upper nineties for sure, strike thrower, very athletic, loose delivery.

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Speaker 1: The split is just tremendous, a pure wipeout pitch. He's

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Speaker 1: got a slider that's just okay, it's a little too slow,

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Speaker 1: it's a little too loopy. I'm sure a major league

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Speaker 1: team will get him into spring training and really start

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Speaker 1: to hone that slider. But I mean, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a free agent that's essentially available to all thirty teams. Show.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I know you've you've had you darbish,

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Speaker 1: you've seen these guys pitch. How do you kind of

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Speaker 1: extrapolate the success someone's had in Japan over here at

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Speaker 1: major league Baseball.

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Speaker 3: First of all, he doesn't the amount of money does

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Speaker 3: really doesn't matter. He gets to choose where he wants

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Speaker 3: to go. Correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the equivalent I use is being recruited

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Speaker 1: for college. Right, you know, wine and die mey, tell

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Speaker 1: me about your facilities. Well, nowadays you have nil's with

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Speaker 1: some money involved too, But yeah, this is not a

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Speaker 1: case of going to the high bidder.

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Speaker 3: So that money in the money pool really is relevant, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean pretty much. I mean, listen, right now in the pool,

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Speaker 1: the Dodgers have the most in their pool right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a little under three million dollars. But the difference

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Speaker 1: is so small. He's making a big decision where he's

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Speaker 1: going to play for the next six years, and it

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Speaker 1: will not be based on the international bonus pool money.

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Speaker 2: The thing about these Japanese pitchers, a couple things stand

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Speaker 2: out for me. When I used to do instructional leagues

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Speaker 2: in the mid eighties, we used to play against the

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Speaker 2: Tokyo Giants farm club, you know, their best prospects. They'd

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Speaker 2: come over to Mesa and I was really impressed back

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Speaker 2: then with a couple of things. One thing was there

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Speaker 2: a fastball command, and their fastball command.

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Speaker 3: Down at that point.

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Speaker 2: And asked their pitching coach what does he attribute that to?

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Speaker 2: And he said, chinned down? Chinned down. He said, you

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Speaker 2: watch your American pictures. They always have their chin up

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Speaker 2: in the air. Our pictures were chinned down, Just saying

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Speaker 2: so that was one thing, because I thought their command

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Speaker 2: was so good.

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Speaker 3: Number one.

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Speaker 2: Number two they'll splitters, the shoot though, the forkball whatever.

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Speaker 2: It was outstanding even back in the eighties, and unhittable, unhittable.

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Speaker 2: So there's a combination of and also, I should say,

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Speaker 2: the funky delivery, their ability to pause in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the delivery, their ability to upset timing and stay

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Speaker 2: on balance and not and not lose controller command, actually

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Speaker 2: gain it. They had everything, and plus the velocity was

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Speaker 2: at the high end. I think the guy's name was

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Speaker 2: Keta at that time. Right hand the picture Keeter code

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Speaker 2: is something key to I think outstanding, big built like

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Speaker 2: Show Hey. So anyway, that's my first introduction into this.

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Speaker 2: So they as I've gotten to have Show Hey and

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Speaker 2: you Darvish in particular, it's all true. I mean their command,

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Speaker 2: Like when I first saw show this command wasn't good.

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Speaker 2: He was hurting, he was coming off of an injury.

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Speaker 2: But when he got his command, it was ridiculous. It's

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Speaker 2: so amazing when they command their fastball, when he commands

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Speaker 2: his fastball, when you commands his fastball, that's when the

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Speaker 2: whole world opens.

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Speaker 3: Up to them. And after that they had to they're

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Speaker 3: able to invent.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one day, walking out to the bullpen in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: Darbish walks by Kyle Hendricks and says, ask Kyle, show

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Speaker 2: me how you hold your changeup. He shows him how

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Speaker 2: he holds the changeup, walk to the bullpen, does it

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Speaker 2: a couple of times, goes into the game and has

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Speaker 2: a Kyle Hendricks change up I've seen show hate with

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Speaker 2: his breaking ball. He'll introduce new breaking balls during the

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Speaker 2: course of the game based on what he's seen. Their acumen,

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Speaker 2: they see things. Their ability to manipulate the ball with

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Speaker 2: their hand and their wrists successfully quickly. It is unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: So it's a combination of a lot of things. I

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Speaker 2: think the way they start out. I'm not sure you

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Speaker 2: know the kind of coaching they get in regards to

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Speaker 2: shape on pitches or delivery in general, but the Constants

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Speaker 2: are kind of a slow, methodical delivery, great balance, the

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Speaker 2: ability to command their fastball down and then even up

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Speaker 2: now when they wanted to one unusually good breaking ball

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Speaker 2: where it's a slider, curve, whatever, and then the shoot though,

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Speaker 2: the change up, the splitter, the putaway pitch, the unhitable pitch.

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Speaker 2: They all have that the Dodgers a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 2: The right hand or.

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Speaker 1: Are you going way back to Nomo?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Nomo nomo. He turned his back to

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Speaker 2: the plate. There was a deception. I guess that's the

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Speaker 2: other part of it. There's a they do it right,

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Speaker 2: they do it well. So if that answers your question.

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Speaker 2: But I've always been a fan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, Joe, I like the fact that he brought

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Speaker 1: up that chin down thing. I hadn't thought about that.

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Speaker 1: But what I've noticed is they really keep it still head.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean if you watch the pure strike throwers in

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Speaker 1: the game, going back to Greg Maddox, they're very quiet heads,

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Speaker 1: sort of like hitting right right. You want to strike thrower,

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Speaker 1: watch their head. And I hadn't thought about the chin down,

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Speaker 1: but that leads to a quiet head. You don't see

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Speaker 1: the head moving off to the side.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why would it change. I mean the pitching coach

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Speaker 2: at that time was Coach Suit and the manager was

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Speaker 2: Pseudo sudosn He became a good friend of mine, and

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Speaker 2: they always had the same coaching staff. They even had

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Speaker 2: these drills for their I thought their catchers were the

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Speaker 2: best ever at blocking balls, but they would do they

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Speaker 2: have a catcher behind the plate, one at first base,

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Speaker 2: one and second one at third base. They'd have four

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Speaker 2: coaches on the mound with baskets of balls and a fungo.

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Speaker 2: One coach would face the plate in front of the mound,

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Speaker 2: went towards for a second, third, et cetera, and they

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Speaker 2: would hit line drives at the catcher with the fungo.

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Speaker 2: And these guys are they had extra padding on, but

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Speaker 2: they're diving all over the place just trying to block

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Speaker 2: a baseball. They were great at it. I've never seen

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Speaker 2: blocking done that well. I mean, it's kind of an

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Speaker 2: interesting drill I try to do with some of my guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't get enough padding, I don't think, But it

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Speaker 2: makes sense. All this stuff makes sense. So my point is,

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Speaker 2: I don't think knowing the traditional component of the Japanese

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Speaker 2: culture in general, these former coaches that had been there before,

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Speaker 2: I think that their precepts are really adhere to even

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Speaker 2: till today, and when it comes down to their batting style,

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Speaker 2: so I would imagine it's still part of the teaching today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, looking at his stuff, I mentioned the splitter, it's

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Speaker 1: off the charts really good. He's got great command of it.

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Speaker 1: The fastball is really interesting. You know, when he really

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Speaker 1: first made his mark there in twenty twenty two, he

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Speaker 1: was averaging ninety eight. He was down to ninety six

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Speaker 1: this year. So if there's any red flags here, it's

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Speaker 1: a decrease in velocity over the last two years. He

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Speaker 1: has not exhibited really any durability at all. He has

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Speaker 1: not thrown more than one hundred and twenty nine innings

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Speaker 1: in a season, but they've brought him along very very slowly.

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Speaker 1: His first year after drafted at a high school, he

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Speaker 1: didn't pitch at all. They just had him travel with

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Speaker 1: the team and watch like an internship. So that's the

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Speaker 1: other thing about the innings. But he should be able

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Speaker 1: to throw one hundred and fifty innings in a major

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Speaker 1: league season. And I mentioned the fastball at ninety six,

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Speaker 1: but it's got incredible movement, Joe. It's the inverted vertical

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Speaker 1: break is about seventeen inches, which is elite. And he's

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Speaker 1: also got twelve inches of run. When I looked at

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Speaker 1: fastball metrics, you know, for throwing that hardy sive and

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Speaker 1: above with that kind of ride and run, I only

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Speaker 1: found one and that was Jeff Hoffman, a relief pitcher

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Speaker 1: for the Philadelphia Phillies now a free agent. So this

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Speaker 1: guy is going to be one of the best pitchers

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Speaker 1: in the world. I don't think you need to expect

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Speaker 1: that right away because there still is some work to

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Speaker 1: be done with the breaking ball, and again the durability issue.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to throw two hundred innings. But who

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Speaker 1: does it these days? Right here's the question, Joe. Everybody

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Speaker 1: wants to know where he's gonna wind up. It seems

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Speaker 1: like the Dodgers are just too good of a fit.

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Speaker 1: You know, his teammates from Team Japan and the WBC

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Speaker 1: are there, Shoe, Otani and Yamamoto. You can be in

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Speaker 1: the same rotation. You know, obviously, West Coast you're a

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Speaker 1: little bit closer to getting back home when you want

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Speaker 1: to go back home, as opposed to the East Coast.

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Speaker 1: A lot of built into here. The Dodgers World champions

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Speaker 1: twelve years in a row. In the postseason, you're going

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Speaker 1: to pitch every six or seventh day because that's the

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Speaker 1: schedule that both Yamamoto, Otani and Tyler Glasnow are going

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Speaker 1: to be on. Listen. I think they're the favorites here, Joe,

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Speaker 1: but we really don't know what it is that he

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Speaker 1: wants you know, you mentioned Darvish. He's very close with you, Darvish,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you sells him on San Diego. I think

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Speaker 1: the Dodgers and the Padre is the two favorites. But

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Speaker 1: we have to caution that we really don't know what's

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Speaker 1: important to Roki Sasaki other than the fact that he

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Speaker 1: wants to come to Major League Baseball so bad badly.

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Speaker 1: He's forfeiting literally hundreds of million dollars because he waits

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Speaker 1: two years, he gets a Yamamoto contract instead, He's going

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Speaker 1: to get seven hundred and fifty thousand in his first year.

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Speaker 2: So he's betting on good health because it sounds like

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Speaker 2: he's eventually going to be in that stratosphere at some point.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is there's gonna be a lot of

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Speaker 2: suitors obviously, like you've already talked about, but the proximity

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Speaker 2: to the West Coast seems to be very important to

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Speaker 2: where that one of these guys wants to travel farther east.

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Speaker 2: I think the culture out there fits a lot of

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Speaker 2: you know, Asian Americans out there, Japanese Americans specifically, so

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Speaker 2: there they feel comfortable, they feel comfortable there. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it just comes it really matters. I mean, when you could,

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Speaker 2: you know, just go around the corner and get the

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Speaker 2: kind of food that you've been used to eating easily,

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Speaker 2: or you could just join a culture group whatever there

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Speaker 2: that you feel very comfortable with exchanging thoughts and ideas

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Speaker 2: with these people, especially if they have wives and children.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's all these things to be considered outside

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Speaker 2: of the actual organization, so it just makes sense. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I didn't realize that he was that close

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Speaker 2: to you, which makes some sense. But I do believe

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Speaker 2: the allure of the Dodgers it's gonna be really hard

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Speaker 2: for him to shy away from or say no to.

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Speaker 2: And on top of everything else, that Cherry being the

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Speaker 2: World Series, the fact that he jumped into that rotation,

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Speaker 2: and of course it's show he can come back next

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Speaker 2: year and pitch along with the others.

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Speaker 3: It's just too attractive.

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Speaker 2: I can't It's this is one of those things that

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Speaker 2: just seems like so obvious that maybe you think it

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Speaker 2: can happen, but this might be so obvious that it

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Speaker 2: has to happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, outcomes a razor, right right exactly, the simplest, the

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Speaker 1: most obvious simplest answer. I mentioned managers, Joe, This is

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Speaker 1: really interesting, And the finalists for the BBWAA Awards were announced.

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Speaker 1: Four of the six managers in terms of finalists for

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Speaker 1: Manager of the Year, we're working their first year with

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Speaker 1: their team, and in each case they were replaced guys

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Speaker 1: who have been managing I mean thousands of games. Stephen

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Speaker 1: Vote who replaced Terry Francona in Cleveland, Carlos Mendoza who

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Speaker 1: replaced Buck show Walter with the Mets, Mike Schilter replaced

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Speaker 1: Bob Melvin with the Padres, and Pat Murphy who replaced

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Speaker 1: Craig Counsel with the Brewers. And then look around the

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Speaker 1: game at some of the hires other than Terry Francona

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Speaker 1: going to Cincinnati, which is still an eye opener for me.

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Speaker 1: You know, Will Venable with the White Sox first job,

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Speaker 1: Clayton McCullough with the Marlins first job, and of course

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Speaker 1: at the end of last season he had Dan Wilson

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Speaker 1: with the Mariners first job. Something's going on here, Joe,

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Speaker 1: where teams are trusting given the keys of the car

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Speaker 1: to guys in their first job, and this year at

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Speaker 1: least several of them did very well, now, Mike Schilt

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Speaker 1: not his first job, I get it, but his first

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Speaker 1: year with the Padres.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just, it's just it's a paradigm shift. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: the teams are looking for somebody, I honestly believe a

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Speaker 2: little bit more controllable. They really don't want people coming

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Speaker 2: with preconceived thoughts and ideas, although they want them to

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Speaker 2: grow into that. I think they prefer the ability to

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Speaker 2: kind of nurture this particular candidate. They're all bright. I

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Speaker 2: know all these guys. I like them all. I think

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Speaker 2: they're great choices. I think they're going to go into

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Speaker 2: their jobs. But I think part of it it's almost

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Speaker 2: like going undergrad school and hopefully they're gonna get under

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Speaker 2: graduate school within the same organization.

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Speaker 3: That's it. Bright. They're all affable there. They speak really well.

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Speaker 2: They're able to sit in a media room and express

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Speaker 2: themselves very well.

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Speaker 3: They're likable.

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Speaker 2: There's so many I think common traits among all of

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Speaker 2: these guys. I think they've been chosen well. And like

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Speaker 2: I said, Will has been a coach of mine, a

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Speaker 2: voter's been a player of mine. U Shilty and I

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Speaker 2: are good friends from back in the days, and say

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Speaker 2: this Burf Murphy and I go back to when it

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Speaker 2: was at Arizona State and Notre Dame. I did clinic

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Speaker 2: with them, done in Tennessee. So I know all these

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Speaker 2: guys and I'm happy for them all. But I think

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Speaker 2: to a certain extent, they being front offices, really want

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Speaker 2: somebody that they feel they could be compatible with and

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Speaker 2: are going to get the full cooperation with, and and

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Speaker 2: and like somebody they can see, they see that they

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Speaker 2: can grow with over a period of time. It's it's

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Speaker 2: not alike what's happening in football. I think football is

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Speaker 2: a perfect example of McVeigh. You know what the Rams

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Speaker 2: did well early on, and all of a sudden everybody

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Speaker 2: wanted one of those. So I think that's the trend

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Speaker 2: even in the NBA that the young guy now with

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Speaker 2: the nets, I can't remember his name, but it's it

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Speaker 2: just seems to be the case where the appeal is

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Speaker 2: the younger guy maybe more aptor able to utilize maybe

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Speaker 2: social medias or or analytics or whatever, are more are

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Speaker 2: more willing to and then of course I said, all

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Speaker 2: these other attributes have to be part of the ingredient package.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's it. I think that's what's.

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Speaker 2: Going on, and then if they're all like that, and

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Speaker 2: of course some of the first year guys are going

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Speaker 2: to have to be the guys going to be in

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Speaker 2: line to get the awards based on the fact that

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Speaker 2: that's who's managing these days. So I like it. I

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Speaker 2: like these guys a lot. I think they're going to

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Speaker 2: continue to grow. I watched Voter and at Voter look great.

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Speaker 2: I texted with Will Venable recently. Will, Will you know

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Speaker 2: I wanted I was going to make them a bench

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Speaker 2: coach one time with I was gonna consider making them

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Speaker 2: a bench coach with the Cubs one time, but everybody

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Speaker 2: felt he had not had an experience at that particular moment.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that's good.

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Speaker 2: This trend's going to continue, not only in baseball but

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Speaker 2: in other sports too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you one hundred percent. Now there's one

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Speaker 1: more manager I want to ask you about, certainly not

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Speaker 1: a rookie manager, but Aaron Boone and his contract situation.

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Speaker 1: I want to get your take on that, Joe. After

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Speaker 1: we take a quick break, we'll be right back on

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe. Joe, I'm not sure if you've

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Speaker 1: been in this position, but Aaron Boone had an option

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Speaker 1: year for twenty twenty five. He took his team to

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Speaker 1: the World Series, and recently the Yankees announced that they

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Speaker 1: are picking up that option. That's not a surprise, but

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Speaker 1: there was no extension attached to it. So Aaron Boone

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Speaker 1: is going into the twenty twenty five season unless they

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Speaker 1: get something done between now and spring training as essentially

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Speaker 1: a lame duck manager. And I know clubs don't like

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Speaker 1: that terminology lame duck, but the fact is it's true

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Speaker 1: that you went to the World Series and your team

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Speaker 1: did nothing to extend your contract, and I never liked

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Speaker 1: that situation. Joe. I want to signal not so much

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Speaker 1: to my manager, but to my players that this is

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Speaker 1: my guy, and especially after you brought the team to

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Speaker 1: the World Series. So we'll see how it plays out,

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Speaker 1: But for now, Boone is saying he's okay with the

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Speaker 1: lack of extension talks, but I don't like having that

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Speaker 1: manager out there on that plank going into a last year.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on that?

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Speaker 2: What happened to me kind of in sixteen excuse me

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Speaker 2: in nineteen with the Cubs, I was on the last

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Speaker 2: year of a contract and THEO call me and told

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Speaker 2: me that they weren't going to extend me, that it

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Speaker 2: was going to go into the last year and everything

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Speaker 2: was going to be evaluated, and of course that was

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Speaker 2: my last year there.

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Speaker 3: It is tough.

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Speaker 2: It is tough because every time you have a conversation,

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Speaker 2: there's an uncertainty that you're going to be part of

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Speaker 2: that conversation again the next year. So when you speak

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Speaker 2: about we and us, you are speaking about we and us,

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Speaker 2: But is it really You just don't know that for sure,

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Speaker 2: So it is difficult, even to the point I mean

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Speaker 2: to me, it be easy to add at least one

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Speaker 2: year to that contract, and even if they chose to

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Speaker 2: not utilize them next year and bring somebody else in,

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Speaker 2: I think it's such a nice little indication of a

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Speaker 2: job well done. You got us to the World Series.

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Speaker 2: We've been in your corner this whole time. You've supported

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Speaker 2: us thoroughly. I mean, Booneie does a great job in

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Speaker 2: that market to stay positive and constantly paint the kind

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Speaker 2: of picture where he's a typically in a good way,

401
00:19:03,518 --> 00:19:07,878
Speaker 2: praise publicly, criticized privately. I love what he does and

402
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Speaker 2: probably infuriates a lot of people, but he's not there

403
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Speaker 2: to make a writer's job any easier by providing headlines.

404
00:19:15,398 --> 00:19:17,718
Speaker 2: He's there to try to make players' jobs easier by

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Speaker 2: not providing headlines, and that's what I think he does

406
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Speaker 2: really well. So it's tough. It's tough to be then,

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Speaker 2: I guess, like I said, the biggest thing is the

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Speaker 2: we and us kind of thing, when you have conversations

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Speaker 2: during the course of next year, like I had to

410
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Speaker 2: have during Tourse twenty nineteen, without any strong believability.

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Speaker 3: That you're going to be there the following season.

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Speaker 2: So I would think that's gonna be the most difficult

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Speaker 2: part for Boonie's the conversations. He's saying the same things

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Speaker 2: I had said at that time, and it really meant

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Speaker 2: that it didn't matter because here, gosh, I worked my

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Speaker 2: whole life on one year contracts in the minor leagues

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Speaker 2: and never thought about it. He just did it because

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Speaker 2: that was part of the landscape. On a major league level.

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Speaker 2: As a manager, it's a little bit more difficult without

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Speaker 2: that kind of support and backing. And who knows, maybe

421
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Speaker 2: at some point early on they at least get off

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Speaker 2: to a good start, maybe Cash will step up in

423
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden do something He hasn't done in

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Speaker 2: the past. But it does make for a little bit

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Speaker 2: more unsettling conversation when you can't be as certain in

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Speaker 2: what you're saying based on the fact you don't even

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Speaker 2: know if you're going to be there in the next year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it certainly gives the media a narrative to

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Speaker 1: run with from day one, which in New York actually yeah,

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Speaker 1: that matters. It's not determinative, but it doesn't matter. By

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Speaker 1: the way, Dave Roberts is in line for an extension

432
00:20:29,478 --> 00:20:32,598
Speaker 1: from the Dodgers, you should expect that to happen. I

433
00:20:32,638 --> 00:20:35,358
Speaker 1: think sooner rather than later, probably even before the calendar

434
00:20:35,438 --> 00:20:38,038
Speaker 1: year is out. And I believe his extension is going

435
00:20:38,078 --> 00:20:41,358
Speaker 1: to exceed the one that the Cubs gave Craig Council,

436
00:20:41,478 --> 00:20:43,878
Speaker 1: make him the highest paid manager in baseball now that

437
00:20:43,918 --> 00:20:47,478
Speaker 1: he has two World Championships and the highest winning percentage

438
00:20:47,478 --> 00:20:50,598
Speaker 1: in baseball history of any manager with a thousand games

439
00:20:50,638 --> 00:20:55,598
Speaker 1: managed well earned well. Joe I mentioned the intersection of

440
00:20:55,718 --> 00:20:59,638
Speaker 1: politics and analytics, and I wanted to bring this up

441
00:20:59,638 --> 00:21:01,398
Speaker 1: because I found it very interesting. It was an op

442
00:21:01,518 --> 00:21:03,078
Speaker 1: ed in the New York Times. I'm not sure if

443
00:21:03,078 --> 00:21:05,318
Speaker 1: you saw it by a guy by the name of

444
00:21:05,438 --> 00:21:08,558
Speaker 1: John Delivolpe. He's the director of polling at the Harvard

445
00:21:08,638 --> 00:21:11,438
Speaker 1: Kennedy School Institute of Politics, and he does run a

446
00:21:11,438 --> 00:21:14,078
Speaker 1: research firm that did some work for the Biden and

447
00:21:14,198 --> 00:21:19,318
Speaker 1: Harris campaigns. This is not about so much a particular candidate,

448
00:21:19,398 --> 00:21:21,958
Speaker 1: but it is about the use of analytics, which we

449
00:21:21,958 --> 00:21:23,598
Speaker 1: talk a lot about here on the show when it

450
00:21:23,638 --> 00:21:26,438
Speaker 1: comes to baseball. And this is what he wrote. I've

451
00:21:26,478 --> 00:21:29,038
Speaker 1: watched with growing and this is actually, of course the

452
00:21:29,158 --> 00:21:32,318
Speaker 1: post mortem after the election. I've watched with growing concern

453
00:21:32,398 --> 00:21:35,758
Speaker 1: as the Democratic Party has increasingly replaced the art of

454
00:21:35,878 --> 00:21:40,438
Speaker 1: listening to and polling voters with an almost religious devotion

455
00:21:40,638 --> 00:21:44,438
Speaker 1: to data analytics. Okay, he's talking about because like in

456
00:21:44,478 --> 00:21:47,838
Speaker 1: baseball and politics, you have so many numbers that you

457
00:21:47,878 --> 00:21:52,358
Speaker 1: can work from. He's talking about voter filed data, consumer databases,

458
00:21:52,438 --> 00:21:57,198
Speaker 1: short surveys, social media insights, information from canvassing and events

459
00:21:57,198 --> 00:22:01,598
Speaker 1: to create detailed profiles on what the model potential voter is.

460
00:22:02,038 --> 00:22:05,318
Speaker 1: That's all they are, is models. And what he says

461
00:22:05,438 --> 00:22:08,838
Speaker 1: is it often results in outreach talking outreach to the

462
00:22:08,918 --> 00:22:13,438
Speaker 1: voters from the candidates that feels to voters like inauthentic

463
00:22:13,758 --> 00:22:19,678
Speaker 1: overly tailored messaging that lacks genuine connection or depth. And

464
00:22:19,718 --> 00:22:22,638
Speaker 1: he says, anyone sitting in focus groups with the undecided

465
00:22:22,678 --> 00:22:25,998
Speaker 1: voters in this election, they saw the writing on the wall.

466
00:22:27,358 --> 00:22:29,998
Speaker 1: And here's how he and of course he's talking basically

467
00:22:30,038 --> 00:22:32,478
Speaker 1: about some of the kitchen table issues, you know, immigration,

468
00:22:32,678 --> 00:22:37,038
Speaker 1: the economy, inflation that really swung this election. And here's

469
00:22:37,078 --> 00:22:41,038
Speaker 1: how he concludes. While data analytics have their place, this

470
00:22:41,198 --> 00:22:45,238
Speaker 1: near blind faith in random control trials and modeling has

471
00:22:45,278 --> 00:22:48,958
Speaker 1: created more than just an illusion of scientific precision. It

472
00:22:48,998 --> 00:22:53,238
Speaker 1: has built an algorithmic fortress that isolates Democrats from the

473
00:22:53,318 --> 00:22:57,078
Speaker 1: very voters they seek to represent. The irony is stark,

474
00:22:57,158 --> 00:22:59,998
Speaker 1: a party full of voter data, yet starved for true

475
00:23:00,078 --> 00:23:04,198
Speaker 1: voter understanding and connection. Boy, when I saw I hadn't

476
00:23:04,238 --> 00:23:07,998
Speaker 1: read that, Joe. It had such a connection to baseball,

477
00:23:08,078 --> 00:23:11,398
Speaker 1: because we love the numbers. We want the numbers. But

478
00:23:11,518 --> 00:23:13,878
Speaker 1: to me, the numbers are you know, if you're a chef,

479
00:23:13,918 --> 00:23:17,238
Speaker 1: it's the seasoning. It's not your main dish. It's what

480
00:23:17,278 --> 00:23:20,638
Speaker 1: you add to wisdom and knowledge.

481
00:23:21,398 --> 00:23:24,878
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's all we have been talking about.

482
00:23:24,918 --> 00:23:27,598
Speaker 2: We talked about it in our book also in advance

483
00:23:27,598 --> 00:23:30,958
Speaker 2: of all this coming down. And I've said it several

484
00:23:30,998 --> 00:23:33,718
Speaker 2: times and I'll say one more time. Analytics provides a

485
00:23:33,758 --> 00:23:36,478
Speaker 2: safety net for decision making. So they go on this

486
00:23:36,478 --> 00:23:41,558
Speaker 2: this this diatribe of analytics where they're just forcing numbers,

487
00:23:41,558 --> 00:23:45,398
Speaker 2: forcing data these different poles and which are constantly they're biased.

488
00:23:45,438 --> 00:23:47,518
Speaker 2: I mean any kind of poll is going to be biased.

489
00:23:47,558 --> 00:23:49,518
Speaker 2: And how it's presented, and who you're talking to and

490
00:23:49,558 --> 00:23:52,158
Speaker 2: how you're approached. There's all these things to be considered.

491
00:23:52,678 --> 00:23:56,758
Speaker 2: And so if you do this and it doesn't go well, again,

492
00:23:56,798 --> 00:23:58,718
Speaker 2: you're going to say, well, the data and the numbers

493
00:23:58,718 --> 00:24:00,798
Speaker 2: supported this. Eventually it's going to come back and be

494
00:24:01,038 --> 00:24:04,318
Speaker 2: correct or right, And no, it's not true because this

495
00:24:04,878 --> 00:24:07,758
Speaker 2: it mattered in twenty twenty four, right now, that to

496
00:24:07,838 --> 00:24:12,758
Speaker 2: be right and it wasn't. So yeah, it's it is frustrating.

497
00:24:13,518 --> 00:24:16,038
Speaker 2: Don't forget the heartbeat. We've talked about that a lot.

498
00:24:16,558 --> 00:24:19,878
Speaker 2: And yes, it should be a part of the overarching,

499
00:24:19,918 --> 00:24:24,558
Speaker 2: overall method of creating a game plan. It's it's it's

500
00:24:24,598 --> 00:24:30,158
Speaker 2: your own experience in history and whatever combined with the

501
00:24:30,238 --> 00:24:32,518
Speaker 2: numbers in the data ete or that we could compile

502
00:24:32,598 --> 00:24:34,798
Speaker 2: and bring it together. And then when you do that

503
00:24:34,998 --> 00:24:40,518
Speaker 2: just you know, don't don't look away from an experienced

504
00:24:40,558 --> 00:24:44,358
Speaker 2: members feelings and is and what he something may have

505
00:24:44,398 --> 00:24:47,718
Speaker 2: happened in the past, something that reminds him of experiences

506
00:24:47,758 --> 00:24:50,798
Speaker 2: that he's had, whatever. Don't forget to include that when

507
00:24:50,838 --> 00:24:52,918
Speaker 2: you call it all the way down and eventually arrive

508
00:24:52,998 --> 00:24:57,078
Speaker 2: at the game plan that you want to to take

509
00:24:57,118 --> 00:24:57,518
Speaker 2: out it.

510
00:24:57,638 --> 00:24:57,958
Speaker 3: I read it.

511
00:24:58,118 --> 00:24:59,478
Speaker 2: You talk about an article. I wish I had the

512
00:24:59,478 --> 00:25:00,918
Speaker 2: guy's name here, but I wrote it. I read it

513
00:25:00,958 --> 00:25:03,358
Speaker 2: this morning in the Post because I'm a post guy,

514
00:25:03,998 --> 00:25:07,078
Speaker 2: and he's talking about the people that Trump's hiring for

515
00:25:07,118 --> 00:25:10,638
Speaker 2: his cabinet are just to be surrounded around him, surround

516
00:25:10,718 --> 00:25:14,398
Speaker 2: him with the different tasks that the president needs. But

517
00:25:14,998 --> 00:25:17,358
Speaker 2: the one This is a great sentence, one of my

518
00:25:17,358 --> 00:25:19,998
Speaker 2: favorite sentences, because I think it applies and everything we

519
00:25:20,038 --> 00:25:22,718
Speaker 2: talk about. There are one common trade he's talking about

520
00:25:22,718 --> 00:25:26,398
Speaker 2: these people, the cabinet members, et cetera. There are one

521
00:25:26,438 --> 00:25:30,478
Speaker 2: common traders that they're fiercely independent minds born to dissonance.

522
00:25:31,038 --> 00:25:32,598
Speaker 3: God did I love that.

523
00:25:32,598 --> 00:25:36,038
Speaker 2: That to me is how the United States was born

524
00:25:36,998 --> 00:25:42,998
Speaker 2: with independent thinking. And when you try to constantly acquiesce

525
00:25:43,158 --> 00:25:46,958
Speaker 2: to the to the vocal majority, most of the time

526
00:25:46,998 --> 00:25:50,158
Speaker 2: many times he's going to be absolutely wrong. So I've

527
00:25:50,238 --> 00:25:52,598
Speaker 2: wrote this down and I'm going to keep this somewhere

528
00:25:53,318 --> 00:25:56,678
Speaker 2: close because it's a way of This sentence describes how

529
00:25:56,718 --> 00:25:58,318
Speaker 2: I felt for a long period of time.

530
00:25:58,358 --> 00:25:59,038
Speaker 3: He wrote it.

531
00:25:59,318 --> 00:26:04,518
Speaker 2: Specifically and perfectly. So you want fiercely independent it minds

532
00:26:05,078 --> 00:26:08,758
Speaker 2: working for you. Those that are not easily swayed by

533
00:26:09,438 --> 00:26:12,358
Speaker 2: public opinion, that could cut to the chase, look through

534
00:26:12,398 --> 00:26:15,358
Speaker 2: the see the forest for the trees, whatever. You have

535
00:26:15,438 --> 00:26:17,958
Speaker 2: to be able to do that. And I thought this

536
00:26:18,118 --> 00:26:20,078
Speaker 2: sentence was great, and I'll try to get the guy's

537
00:26:20,198 --> 00:26:20,678
Speaker 2: name that wrote it.

538
00:26:20,758 --> 00:26:21,518
Speaker 3: It was outstanding.

539
00:26:21,718 --> 00:26:24,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that in this case. I love this

540
00:26:24,558 --> 00:26:28,958
Speaker 1: line about creating an illusion of scientific precision.

541
00:26:29,198 --> 00:26:29,478
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:26:29,918 --> 00:26:33,078
Speaker 1: And I thought about the way that war is used

543
00:26:33,078 --> 00:26:36,078
Speaker 1: in baseball. Listen, I like war. I use war, but

544
00:26:36,118 --> 00:26:40,558
Speaker 1: I understand war is actually an approximation. It's cooked up

545
00:26:40,558 --> 00:26:46,438
Speaker 1: from a formula that people are using. Essentially, they're handpicking

546
00:26:46,478 --> 00:26:49,758
Speaker 1: how they want to get the value the total value

547
00:26:49,758 --> 00:26:52,758
Speaker 1: of a player in one number. That's correct, But you

548
00:26:52,798 --> 00:26:56,758
Speaker 1: know that in itself is showing some editorial control. It's

549
00:26:56,838 --> 00:27:00,798
Speaker 1: not a scientific number, it's not a measurement. It's an approximation.

550
00:27:01,238 --> 00:27:04,078
Speaker 1: And the way people are using it is as a

551
00:27:04,198 --> 00:27:07,278
Speaker 1: scientific precision. Like if you look at some of the

552
00:27:07,318 --> 00:27:11,718
Speaker 1: defensive metrics on Francisco Lindor, he's not a very good shortstop.

553
00:27:12,358 --> 00:27:15,238
Speaker 1: If you watch him play the position, you say, how

554
00:27:15,318 --> 00:27:18,438
Speaker 1: could that be true? So when I'm presented with a

555
00:27:18,558 --> 00:27:23,118
Speaker 1: number that regards Francisco Lindor as an average defender at shortstop,

556
00:27:23,478 --> 00:27:27,118
Speaker 1: I am not accepting that as scientific precision. But so

557
00:27:27,198 --> 00:27:29,758
Speaker 1: many people just do and they don't even know what

558
00:27:29,838 --> 00:27:33,478
Speaker 1: goes into it. But because it's one value of a

559
00:27:33,518 --> 00:27:36,398
Speaker 1: player wrapped up in one number, they take it as

560
00:27:36,438 --> 00:27:40,598
Speaker 1: an empirical number, and I think we really have to question,

561
00:27:41,238 --> 00:27:43,398
Speaker 1: you know, where these numbers are coming from and how

562
00:27:43,438 --> 00:27:43,998
Speaker 1: they're used.

563
00:27:44,478 --> 00:27:46,038
Speaker 3: I cannot agree with that more.

564
00:27:46,038 --> 00:27:49,478
Speaker 2: I mean, that's been my bump for a while when

565
00:27:49,478 --> 00:27:51,398
Speaker 2: I first was with the Rays, when I first got

566
00:27:51,438 --> 00:27:55,598
Speaker 2: into the actual analytics based on utilizing computers and a

567
00:27:55,718 --> 00:27:59,958
Speaker 2: large databases. Before that, it was my my analytics was

568
00:28:00,198 --> 00:28:02,718
Speaker 2: in mid nineties until the time I got through the Rays,

569
00:28:03,318 --> 00:28:07,078
Speaker 2: just by looking at information, whether it's the spray charts

570
00:28:07,158 --> 00:28:09,518
Speaker 2: or statistical sheets whatever. Then from that I would call

571
00:28:09,598 --> 00:28:12,318
Speaker 2: down what I thought and analyze that in my own way,

572
00:28:12,318 --> 00:28:15,558
Speaker 2: and that was you know, mad analytics. You know, that's

573
00:28:15,798 --> 00:28:17,918
Speaker 2: what I presented to my managers. That's what I posted

574
00:28:17,958 --> 00:28:21,118
Speaker 2: on the wall. And so that's where it began. But

575
00:28:21,158 --> 00:28:24,118
Speaker 2: then I go to the Rays and it's becomes like

576
00:28:24,478 --> 00:28:28,398
Speaker 2: greater then, And I honestly thought, I thought, and this

577
00:28:28,478 --> 00:28:30,558
Speaker 2: is my original night, and I even tell you that

578
00:28:30,718 --> 00:28:34,358
Speaker 2: it was infallible. I mean, this was like I thought, analytics,

579
00:28:34,358 --> 00:28:35,598
Speaker 2: My god, it knows everything.

580
00:28:35,998 --> 00:28:36,958
Speaker 3: It's infallible.

581
00:28:37,478 --> 00:28:41,038
Speaker 2: And I never really understood at that time it's no

582
00:28:41,198 --> 00:28:43,878
Speaker 2: better than the people that are in putting the methods

583
00:28:43,878 --> 00:28:45,918
Speaker 2: into the equation that's going to spit out these stuff

584
00:28:45,918 --> 00:28:46,838
Speaker 2: that you're going to live by.

585
00:28:47,318 --> 00:28:49,118
Speaker 3: So I thought it was infallible.

586
00:28:49,118 --> 00:28:51,758
Speaker 2: Then I found out where quickly not quickly, I'd say,

587
00:28:52,198 --> 00:28:54,838
Speaker 2: I don't know, six maybe five six years that it

588
00:28:54,918 --> 00:28:57,438
Speaker 2: was fallible, you know, and I and that you did

589
00:28:57,518 --> 00:29:00,398
Speaker 2: need to really incorporate all this other stuff. I got

590
00:29:00,398 --> 00:29:01,998
Speaker 2: by the time I got to the Cubs, I knew that,

591
00:29:02,398 --> 00:29:03,878
Speaker 2: And definitely by the time I got to the angel

592
00:29:04,078 --> 00:29:06,318
Speaker 2: I knew that. So it's just it's just like one

593
00:29:06,398 --> 00:29:10,358
Speaker 2: man or one department's opinion on what they think based

594
00:29:10,398 --> 00:29:13,238
Speaker 2: on their own mora's and what they believe in regards

595
00:29:13,278 --> 00:29:16,518
Speaker 2: to baseball in this situation. So I've been on that

596
00:29:16,598 --> 00:29:19,398
Speaker 2: train for a bit. I want it, but I don't

597
00:29:19,398 --> 00:29:22,318
Speaker 2: want a lot of times, you know, i'd get my information,

598
00:29:22,398 --> 00:29:24,558
Speaker 2: but I would tell people I need to look at

599
00:29:24,558 --> 00:29:26,598
Speaker 2: the video of like a picture I had not seen before,

600
00:29:26,598 --> 00:29:28,518
Speaker 2: a hit, or I had not seen before. I have

601
00:29:28,598 --> 00:29:30,878
Speaker 2: to look at the video of this particular guy. And

602
00:29:30,918 --> 00:29:34,718
Speaker 2: then Marriott with the the the did that information? I

603
00:29:34,758 --> 00:29:39,358
Speaker 2: got so eyeballs plus information. Either they meet up well

604
00:29:39,478 --> 00:29:42,718
Speaker 2: or they don't. Like when I first saw Nikki Costeanos,

605
00:29:43,558 --> 00:29:45,278
Speaker 2: I think I've talked about this when I got to

606
00:29:45,438 --> 00:29:47,838
Speaker 2: when he came to the Cubs, just to acquire him,

607
00:29:47,918 --> 00:29:49,798
Speaker 2: just acquire them, and I get my you know, they

608
00:29:49,838 --> 00:29:52,158
Speaker 2: always presented me with the week's worth of lineups in advance,

609
00:29:52,158 --> 00:29:53,678
Speaker 2: which I asked for and I wanted because they didn't

610
00:29:53,718 --> 00:29:54,558
Speaker 2: want to miss anything.

611
00:29:54,878 --> 00:29:56,158
Speaker 3: But they didn't have him playing like that.

612
00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,638
Speaker 2: I'm playing one or twice once or twice during the

613
00:29:58,678 --> 00:30:01,918
Speaker 2: whole week that he just gets there because they said

614
00:30:02,478 --> 00:30:05,238
Speaker 2: he two things he chased and he was not a

615
00:30:05,238 --> 00:30:07,398
Speaker 2: good outfielder. I'm thinking, then why did we get this guy?

616
00:30:07,478 --> 00:30:09,758
Speaker 2: And then I asked him specifically, why is he not

617
00:30:09,798 --> 00:30:11,878
Speaker 2: a good outfielder? And they sent me a couple of

618
00:30:11,958 --> 00:30:14,158
Speaker 2: videos of like a ball falling in front of him

619
00:30:14,598 --> 00:30:16,838
Speaker 2: in Comerica and one going over his head and right

620
00:30:16,918 --> 00:30:19,598
Speaker 2: central and thinking those are the two I says, no, no, no, no,

621
00:30:19,998 --> 00:30:23,398
Speaker 2: why is he not a good outfielder? Bad for his steps?

622
00:30:23,398 --> 00:30:25,718
Speaker 2: Does he run bad routes? Does he get his feet

623
00:30:25,718 --> 00:30:28,038
Speaker 2: tangled up? What's going on here? He give me more

624
00:30:28,038 --> 00:30:29,278
Speaker 2: specific because they couldn't do it.

625
00:30:29,398 --> 00:30:30,238
Speaker 3: They could not do that.

626
00:30:30,638 --> 00:30:34,158
Speaker 2: So then on that pony for a bit, I agree

627
00:30:34,158 --> 00:30:36,718
Speaker 2: with one hundred percent. And last point, the person that

628
00:30:36,838 --> 00:30:39,718
Speaker 2: said the article wrote that article was Martin Guri g

629
00:30:40,198 --> 00:30:41,838
Speaker 2: r R I Today's New York Post.

630
00:30:42,118 --> 00:30:44,878
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I like that about we're actually talking

631
00:30:44,878 --> 00:30:48,038
Speaker 1: about the same thing. Actually an independent thinking, you know,

632
00:30:48,158 --> 00:30:51,798
Speaker 1: to be able to question something that should be a feature,

633
00:30:51,878 --> 00:30:56,318
Speaker 1: not a bug. Hey, I mentioned Joe Peter Frampton in

634
00:30:56,358 --> 00:31:00,078
Speaker 1: the Baseball Hall of Fame. I'm assuming you're a Frampton fan.

635
00:31:00,158 --> 00:31:02,038
Speaker 1: We're going to find out right after we take a

636
00:31:02,078 --> 00:31:16,798
Speaker 1: quick break on the book of Joe. All Right, Joe,

637
00:31:16,838 --> 00:31:18,958
Speaker 1: I assume that you're a fan of Peter Frampton, but

638
00:31:19,038 --> 00:31:21,478
Speaker 1: maybe you're not. What's your what's your scattering report on

639
00:31:21,558 --> 00:31:22,198
Speaker 1: Peter Frampton?

640
00:31:22,598 --> 00:31:25,398
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, except for that one techno song weeks

641
00:31:25,878 --> 00:31:27,838
Speaker 2: wah wah wand what's the name of that song? I

642
00:31:27,998 --> 00:31:29,598
Speaker 2: like the talk bok, Yeah, I don't like that. I

643
00:31:29,638 --> 00:31:31,958
Speaker 2: don't like that gets sold, it's too long, that gets sold.

644
00:31:31,998 --> 00:31:35,398
Speaker 2: Everything else I like, I do, I like him, I

645
00:31:35,518 --> 00:31:38,798
Speaker 2: like his way. Interviews with him I really enjoyed. But

646
00:31:39,198 --> 00:31:40,598
Speaker 2: just throw that one away and I'm good.

647
00:31:41,958 --> 00:31:43,758
Speaker 1: Was that baby? I love your way.

648
00:31:44,478 --> 00:31:47,158
Speaker 3: I don't even remember that. I'm bad with titles and

649
00:31:47,478 --> 00:31:48,238
Speaker 3: I know the song though.

650
00:31:48,238 --> 00:31:52,238
Speaker 1: Anyway, Peter Frampton was inducted into the Rock and Roll

651
00:31:52,358 --> 00:31:55,838
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, so congratulations to him. I wanted to

652
00:31:55,878 --> 00:31:58,118
Speaker 1: talk about his story joke because it reminds me of

653
00:31:58,198 --> 00:32:01,678
Speaker 1: sometimes you hear about a player like this in baseball.

654
00:32:01,678 --> 00:32:03,758
Speaker 1: With this the arc of his career. First of all,

655
00:32:04,758 --> 00:32:06,998
Speaker 1: when he gets to high school, he's a Bromley Technical

656
00:32:07,078 --> 00:32:09,878
Speaker 1: High school in England. Who does he see it as

657
00:32:09,998 --> 00:32:14,118
Speaker 1: first lunchtime who he becomes friends with, but David Bowie,

658
00:32:14,718 --> 00:32:18,158
Speaker 1: can't you believe that that's amazing that they're in the

659
00:32:18,158 --> 00:32:21,838
Speaker 1: same high school. So he Franmpton starts working in some

660
00:32:21,918 --> 00:32:25,198
Speaker 1: bands and obviously, he had his big hit I think

661
00:32:25,198 --> 00:32:29,598
Speaker 1: it was in the mid seventies, and fame came to

662
00:32:29,718 --> 00:32:32,878
Speaker 1: him really quickly, and he wasn't really ready for it.

663
00:32:32,918 --> 00:32:36,278
Speaker 1: In fact, he once took a photo shoot with his

664
00:32:36,318 --> 00:32:39,998
Speaker 1: shirt off and became like this teen heart throb, which

665
00:32:40,238 --> 00:32:42,918
Speaker 1: he didn't want to do, and he was not comfortable

666
00:32:43,478 --> 00:32:46,838
Speaker 1: with that image. And he had a hard time and

667
00:32:46,878 --> 00:32:48,638
Speaker 1: he wound up, you know, like a lot of rockers

668
00:32:48,678 --> 00:32:51,518
Speaker 1: and back in the day and even today, getting involved

669
00:32:51,518 --> 00:32:56,278
Speaker 1: with drugs. His label wound up dumping him, so things

670
00:32:56,358 --> 00:32:58,878
Speaker 1: kind of get off the tracks. He got fame at

671
00:32:58,878 --> 00:33:01,518
Speaker 1: twenty six years old, and he said the whole thing

672
00:33:01,678 --> 00:33:04,478
Speaker 1: was surreal. I was just twenty six years old. I

673
00:33:04,478 --> 00:33:07,598
Speaker 1: didn't want to be the biggest of anything because I

674
00:33:07,638 --> 00:33:11,638
Speaker 1: knew the pressure brought with it is enormous. The thought

675
00:33:11,758 --> 00:33:17,078
Speaker 1: of how to follow it up was absolutely daunting. And

676
00:33:17,118 --> 00:33:19,518
Speaker 1: it's interesting when you think about his career. Yes, he's

677
00:33:19,518 --> 00:33:22,038
Speaker 1: gone on and moved and done some other things. You know,

678
00:33:22,078 --> 00:33:24,878
Speaker 1: he cut some albums, he worked with George Harrison. It

679
00:33:24,918 --> 00:33:27,478
Speaker 1: wasn't like he was a one hit wonder, right, but

680
00:33:27,558 --> 00:33:29,958
Speaker 1: he never got back to that kind of a level.

681
00:33:30,518 --> 00:33:33,878
Speaker 1: And it made me think of players like you know,

682
00:33:33,958 --> 00:33:36,358
Speaker 1: who are great for a short period of time, who

683
00:33:36,478 --> 00:33:39,238
Speaker 1: capture our imagination the way that Frampton did, especially with

684
00:33:39,278 --> 00:33:41,958
Speaker 1: his album Frampton Comes Alive. I mean that thing was huge,

685
00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:47,518
Speaker 1: that album. Whether it's Tim Linsecam, whether you know it's

686
00:33:47,638 --> 00:33:53,158
Speaker 1: it's Mark Fidrich, whether Johann Santana. I mean, guys who

687
00:33:53,158 --> 00:33:56,038
Speaker 1: were like among the very best to play the game,

688
00:33:56,238 --> 00:33:58,638
Speaker 1: just didn't do it for a long period of time.

689
00:33:59,958 --> 00:34:02,558
Speaker 1: Should there be some recognition in the Hall of Fame

690
00:34:02,638 --> 00:34:05,678
Speaker 1: for players like that? There's like a some kind of

691
00:34:05,798 --> 00:34:09,118
Speaker 1: distinguished award, if not full induction at the Hall of Fame.

692
00:34:09,918 --> 00:34:11,918
Speaker 1: You know, those guys that you know this Joe, they

693
00:34:11,998 --> 00:34:15,078
Speaker 1: just carve out a special place in the history of

694
00:34:15,118 --> 00:34:19,598
Speaker 1: this game without having the longevity to be what we

695
00:34:19,718 --> 00:34:22,158
Speaker 1: call and know as the true Hall of Famer.

696
00:34:22,278 --> 00:34:24,198
Speaker 3: Joe Charboneau, does he qualify.

697
00:34:24,038 --> 00:34:27,038
Speaker 1: Well, certainly for a year, absolutely.

698
00:34:26,438 --> 00:34:27,398
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah.

699
00:34:27,438 --> 00:34:29,958
Speaker 2: And then there's even Ron Kittle, who was infamous for

700
00:34:29,998 --> 00:34:32,198
Speaker 2: his home runs. But then again you could talk about

701
00:34:32,238 --> 00:34:35,518
Speaker 2: Sandy Kofax, who his career was cut short, but nevertheless

702
00:34:35,718 --> 00:34:36,598
Speaker 2: was that great.

703
00:34:37,158 --> 00:34:37,998
Speaker 3: I don't I mean this.

704
00:34:38,238 --> 00:34:40,318
Speaker 2: I never thought of that, to be honest with you,

705
00:34:40,438 --> 00:34:43,958
Speaker 2: and which I always am. I just think it'd be

706
00:34:43,998 --> 00:34:47,598
Speaker 2: kind of interesting possibly to recognize things like that, like

707
00:34:47,638 --> 00:34:52,918
Speaker 2: the like the Shooting Stars as opposed to the eventual

708
00:34:53,158 --> 00:34:55,198
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame start. It might be kind of an

709
00:34:55,198 --> 00:34:59,678
Speaker 2: interesting wing because some of their work was like Fidric

710
00:34:59,798 --> 00:35:02,718
Speaker 2: was the best man and the way he passed is awful.

711
00:35:03,158 --> 00:35:04,918
Speaker 2: But when we were grown up they again in the

712
00:35:04,958 --> 00:35:08,678
Speaker 2: seventies there and he was doing his thing. It was

713
00:35:09,278 --> 00:35:11,878
Speaker 2: you talk about musty TV. You had to watch this,

714
00:35:11,958 --> 00:35:14,038
Speaker 2: You had to watch him pitch, You had to find

715
00:35:14,078 --> 00:35:16,478
Speaker 2: out what Fidrich did the night before. You had to

716
00:35:16,478 --> 00:35:19,198
Speaker 2: know everything about Mark Fidrich and what he did. And

717
00:35:19,598 --> 00:35:21,758
Speaker 2: it was primarily you know, he was good, but it's

718
00:35:21,798 --> 00:35:23,758
Speaker 2: because he would, you know, of course, fix the dirt,

719
00:35:23,838 --> 00:35:26,718
Speaker 2: kneel down and talk to the ball, whatever it was.

720
00:35:26,838 --> 00:35:29,158
Speaker 1: Joe in the same vein that's Fernando of alan Zuela,

721
00:35:29,198 --> 00:35:31,998
Speaker 1: who we just lost right just sixty three. I mean,

722
00:35:32,118 --> 00:35:34,838
Speaker 1: in the same way, they just captivated the game. They

723
00:35:34,958 --> 00:35:37,878
Speaker 1: brought in fans to the game who had not been

724
00:35:37,958 --> 00:35:40,878
Speaker 1: fans of the baseball just because they were a phenomenon.

725
00:35:41,318 --> 00:35:45,398
Speaker 1: Great at what they did, but personality and style made

726
00:35:45,438 --> 00:35:46,558
Speaker 1: them a cut above.

727
00:35:47,078 --> 00:35:50,638
Speaker 2: Even Alan Herboski eventually made his mark in Saint Louis

728
00:35:50,638 --> 00:35:53,278
Speaker 2: by becoming a broadcaster there too. But the Matt Hungarian

729
00:35:53,878 --> 00:35:56,198
Speaker 2: there was not a better relief pitcher act than him.

730
00:35:56,198 --> 00:35:58,078
Speaker 2: When he first came on board with the long hair.

731
00:35:58,478 --> 00:36:00,518
Speaker 2: You know, we got fired up behind the mount, turned

732
00:36:00,518 --> 00:36:02,598
Speaker 2: away from the plate and then came back to the plate.

733
00:36:03,278 --> 00:36:04,638
Speaker 3: The guy I had to watch.

734
00:36:04,678 --> 00:36:06,358
Speaker 2: I mean, these were my guys back and the dad

735
00:36:06,438 --> 00:36:09,438
Speaker 2: loved watching all that. Forer Nanda, like you said, so, yeah,

736
00:36:09,438 --> 00:36:13,238
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's definitely worth an exploration. And

737
00:36:13,278 --> 00:36:15,398
Speaker 2: again it's just part of the characters of the game

738
00:36:15,438 --> 00:36:17,878
Speaker 2: and part of why you love baseball and part of

739
00:36:17,878 --> 00:36:21,118
Speaker 2: why I love baseball. There was nothing cookie cutter about

740
00:36:21,118 --> 00:36:24,158
Speaker 2: this stuff, even my man George Hendrick, where he just

741
00:36:24,998 --> 00:36:26,998
Speaker 2: chose to put his pants all the way down to

742
00:36:27,038 --> 00:36:29,998
Speaker 2: the body cause I love Cuz, cause you look at

743
00:36:30,078 --> 00:36:32,038
Speaker 2: Couzin's numbers. Becuz did some great work in the big

744
00:36:32,118 --> 00:36:34,638
Speaker 2: leagues too. There's a lot of those guys. But I

745
00:36:34,678 --> 00:36:37,198
Speaker 2: find it fascinating to be interesting to try to set

746
00:36:37,238 --> 00:36:40,758
Speaker 2: up some criterion to look at in order to get

747
00:36:40,758 --> 00:36:45,718
Speaker 2: this special segment or group recognized for the work that

748
00:36:45,758 --> 00:36:48,358
Speaker 2: they did. Even though kind of shooting star kind of work,

749
00:36:48,678 --> 00:36:51,198
Speaker 2: but definitely necessary to be recognized.

750
00:36:51,558 --> 00:36:54,318
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, you can create an award. I know,

751
00:36:54,438 --> 00:36:56,718
Speaker 1: the Grammy is the amazing. You know, they have lifetime

752
00:36:56,758 --> 00:36:59,798
Speaker 1: achieved awards, but you just put a name on it

753
00:36:59,918 --> 00:37:03,118
Speaker 1: and recognize that these guys, if they didn't have Hall

754
00:37:03,158 --> 00:37:07,278
Speaker 1: of Fame career, they have a place in the game's history,

755
00:37:07,318 --> 00:37:09,838
Speaker 1: the oral history of the game that needs to be

756
00:37:09,918 --> 00:37:13,838
Speaker 1: memorialized really because the stories will never get old. I mean,

757
00:37:13,878 --> 00:37:16,958
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about these guys, the Fidridges, the Fernandos,

758
00:37:17,238 --> 00:37:17,958
Speaker 1: you know, forever.

759
00:37:18,558 --> 00:37:20,838
Speaker 3: And my guy's Dick Allen. I love Dick Allen.

760
00:37:21,358 --> 00:37:23,558
Speaker 1: Well, by the way, you know he is on the

761
00:37:24,398 --> 00:37:28,038
Speaker 1: latest iteration of the Veterans Committee. He's on the ballot

762
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,878
Speaker 1: this year. You got Dick Allen. You've got Steve Garvey,

763
00:37:30,918 --> 00:37:33,678
Speaker 1: You've got Dave Parker Parker. It'll be interesting to see

764
00:37:33,718 --> 00:37:35,198
Speaker 1: if Dick Allen finally does get in.

765
00:37:35,358 --> 00:37:36,038
Speaker 3: You just themed two.

766
00:37:36,278 --> 00:37:40,238
Speaker 2: I mean, I know Garve too, but love David Parker.

767
00:37:40,598 --> 00:37:43,158
Speaker 2: David was a coach when I was a coach with

768
00:37:43,198 --> 00:37:45,838
Speaker 2: the Angels in the Big Leagues in the mid nineties.

769
00:37:45,998 --> 00:37:48,398
Speaker 2: My impression of David, first of all David's very bright,

770
00:37:48,638 --> 00:37:51,118
Speaker 2: very funny, very witty, very intimidating.

771
00:37:51,798 --> 00:37:52,158
Speaker 3: David.

772
00:37:53,158 --> 00:37:54,798
Speaker 2: At that point, I was just a young man in

773
00:37:54,798 --> 00:37:57,118
Speaker 2: the big leagues, first or second year coaching, whatever it was.

774
00:37:57,158 --> 00:38:01,558
Speaker 2: Third I never saw anybody as comfortable in his own

775
00:38:01,678 --> 00:38:04,718
Speaker 2: skin on a major league feels, I thought they Parker was.

776
00:38:04,798 --> 00:38:08,318
Speaker 2: I was so impressed by that. He it was like

777
00:38:08,358 --> 00:38:09,958
Speaker 2: you just it was just like you was sitting at

778
00:38:09,958 --> 00:38:12,438
Speaker 2: a dinner table having dinner with you or going out

779
00:38:12,478 --> 00:38:15,238
Speaker 2: for a drink at night. I mean, his his demeanor

780
00:38:15,238 --> 00:38:19,718
Speaker 2: would never change regarded regardless what what particular moment you

781
00:38:19,718 --> 00:38:21,398
Speaker 2: found him in. He was also like kind of like

782
00:38:21,398 --> 00:38:23,998
Speaker 2: a protectorate for me. Like if anybody at that time,

783
00:38:24,038 --> 00:38:26,278
Speaker 2: you know, being into the my analytics at that time

784
00:38:26,358 --> 00:38:29,518
Speaker 2: and carrying like a laptop computer at that time, anybody

785
00:38:29,518 --> 00:38:31,598
Speaker 2: would come hard at me at all, David would be

786
00:38:31,678 --> 00:38:35,038
Speaker 2: right there, uh, to protect. And on top of that,

787
00:38:35,598 --> 00:38:38,438
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what man, him and Larry Boa on

788
00:38:38,518 --> 00:38:42,158
Speaker 2: a bus leaving on a on a road game after

789
00:38:42,318 --> 00:38:44,518
Speaker 2: like you know, getaway day on a bus, especially after

790
00:38:44,638 --> 00:38:48,878
Speaker 2: when possibly was nothing funnier than listen to Larry Boa

791
00:38:49,678 --> 00:38:53,838
Speaker 2: David Parker go back and forth and again Garves guards

792
00:38:53,878 --> 00:38:57,038
Speaker 2: wonderful too, but I'd love to see U Parkway get

793
00:38:57,118 --> 00:38:59,838
Speaker 2: that opportunity. You know, he's got the Parkinson's now and

794
00:39:00,798 --> 00:39:03,438
Speaker 2: I've seen him more recently and it's it's it's tough,

795
00:39:03,518 --> 00:39:05,518
Speaker 2: you know, He's just such a mountain of a man.

796
00:39:05,598 --> 00:39:08,278
Speaker 2: And then Dick Gallen, he was my favorite, one of

797
00:39:08,318 --> 00:39:10,118
Speaker 2: my favorite hitters growing up, and I got to meet

798
00:39:10,158 --> 00:39:12,958
Speaker 2: him in the stands before a game in Quad Cities

799
00:39:12,958 --> 00:39:15,478
Speaker 2: one time. I was a roving hitting instructor. He was

800
00:39:15,518 --> 00:39:18,718
Speaker 2: there for an old timer's situation. I walk out from

801
00:39:18,758 --> 00:39:20,358
Speaker 2: my early work and I sit in the stands and

802
00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:22,398
Speaker 2: I write my notes before my players come out to hit,

803
00:39:22,398 --> 00:39:25,838
Speaker 2: and I look up behind me. There's Dick Gallen sitting

804
00:39:25,878 --> 00:39:28,278
Speaker 2: in the stands and I just walked up and we

805
00:39:28,318 --> 00:39:31,718
Speaker 2: had about an hour conversation about hitting, and then eventually

806
00:39:31,718 --> 00:39:34,878
Speaker 2: took VP with us and everything we talked about, he

807
00:39:34,918 --> 00:39:37,158
Speaker 2: showed me what I was talking about. Dur MVP on

808
00:39:37,198 --> 00:39:40,438
Speaker 2: the field. Love the guy. So anyway, I'm glad to

809
00:39:40,478 --> 00:39:42,598
Speaker 2: hear that. I didn't even realize that'd be great to see.

810
00:39:42,918 --> 00:39:45,678
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Goose Goasage, who played a long time,

811
00:39:45,798 --> 00:39:48,478
Speaker 1: once told me Dick Allen was the best player he

812
00:39:48,518 --> 00:39:51,478
Speaker 1: ever played with. That's a really high compliment. We'll have

813
00:39:51,518 --> 00:39:55,118
Speaker 1: to do a podcast episode once on this ballot coming up, Joe,

814
00:39:55,118 --> 00:39:58,198
Speaker 1: because there's also Tommy John Yeah, in his place in

815
00:39:58,238 --> 00:40:02,278
Speaker 1: the game's history. Garvey, I think analytics have hurt him.

816
00:40:02,278 --> 00:40:04,358
Speaker 1: He was not a guy who walked a lot. But

817
00:40:04,438 --> 00:40:06,558
Speaker 1: you know, back in the day, Steve Garvey was an

818
00:40:06,638 --> 00:40:11,078
Speaker 1: absolute star, and he was money in the postseason, and

819
00:40:11,118 --> 00:40:13,638
Speaker 1: he had that consecutive game streak in the National League

820
00:40:13,638 --> 00:40:15,358
Speaker 1: that was a record for a long period of time

821
00:40:15,358 --> 00:40:18,558
Speaker 1: before he broke his thumb on a slide. I mean,

822
00:40:19,038 --> 00:40:21,518
Speaker 1: it's it's a case where if you if you watch

823
00:40:21,678 --> 00:40:23,958
Speaker 1: Garvey when he was playing, you thought you were looking

824
00:40:23,998 --> 00:40:26,438
Speaker 1: at a Hall of Famer, And in retrospect, some of

825
00:40:26,438 --> 00:40:29,318
Speaker 1: the analytics people looking back on his numbers say he's short.

826
00:40:30,118 --> 00:40:33,798
Speaker 1: So we will we'll get into that looking forward. That's

827
00:40:33,838 --> 00:40:37,438
Speaker 1: coming up at the Winter meetings in December. By the way,

828
00:40:37,518 --> 00:40:41,278
Speaker 1: the talk box of Peter Frampton, where did it come from?

829
00:40:42,558 --> 00:40:45,198
Speaker 1: He was actually working with George Harrison on All Things

830
00:40:45,278 --> 00:40:50,038
Speaker 1: Must Pass and those sessions, and it was it was

831
00:40:50,038 --> 00:40:52,078
Speaker 1: a steel guitarist there by the name of Pete Drake

832
00:40:52,118 --> 00:40:55,478
Speaker 1: who showed him this thing, and Frampton thought it was cool.

833
00:40:55,678 --> 00:40:57,798
Speaker 1: He said it was a humorous way to communicate with

834
00:40:57,838 --> 00:41:01,278
Speaker 1: the audience. It's very funny. So there you go.

835
00:41:01,598 --> 00:41:03,238
Speaker 2: If you're at one time, maybe this, but if you

836
00:41:03,238 --> 00:41:06,438
Speaker 2: listen to the record here, you know, five times during

837
00:41:06,438 --> 00:41:08,598
Speaker 2: the course of a day, not so good. And last point,

838
00:41:08,678 --> 00:41:12,118
Speaker 2: TJ Tommy John, I caught him all that. I never

839
00:41:12,158 --> 00:41:14,478
Speaker 2: caught him in a game, but I was the grunt

840
00:41:14,478 --> 00:41:18,838
Speaker 2: guy with the Angels spring training. TJ would throw every

841
00:41:18,958 --> 00:41:22,358
Speaker 2: frigging day and I would I would hide because I'm

842
00:41:22,478 --> 00:41:25,958
Speaker 2: I'm catching, I'm throwing BP, I'm hitting fungos, and I

843
00:41:26,158 --> 00:41:28,198
Speaker 2: swear to you, I swear to you. Every day TJ

844
00:41:28,238 --> 00:41:30,918
Speaker 2: would come up and want to throw onto the mound

845
00:41:30,958 --> 00:41:33,278
Speaker 2: to me as a catcher. And the thing that was

846
00:41:33,398 --> 00:41:35,958
Speaker 2: him and Jeff Sam was so impressive. And these guys

847
00:41:35,958 --> 00:41:38,478
Speaker 2: are throwing the mid eighties probably at the most. They

848
00:41:38,558 --> 00:41:41,358
Speaker 2: never threw the ball over the plate never. I mean

849
00:41:41,478 --> 00:41:43,638
Speaker 2: I was never permitted to sit on the plate. I

850
00:41:43,678 --> 00:41:46,038
Speaker 2: always had to sit on the black, were right a

851
00:41:46,118 --> 00:41:48,478
Speaker 2: little bit off the black. And I promise you these

852
00:41:48,478 --> 00:41:51,798
Speaker 2: two dudes could just nail that all day long.

853
00:41:52,198 --> 00:41:53,398
Speaker 3: Was it would be really I.

854
00:41:53,318 --> 00:41:55,998
Speaker 2: Had never seen anybody throw baseballs off and as TJ did,

855
00:41:56,238 --> 00:41:58,998
Speaker 2: of course he gets the famous operation. Maybe he should

856
00:41:59,038 --> 00:42:00,598
Speaker 2: be in Hall of Fame just based on the fact

857
00:42:00,598 --> 00:42:02,118
Speaker 2: that the operation was named after him.

858
00:42:02,318 --> 00:42:04,518
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Frank Jobs should definite being in the Hall

859
00:42:04,558 --> 00:42:07,438
Speaker 1: of Fame. He's actually the one who invented the surgery

860
00:42:07,558 --> 00:42:10,878
Speaker 1: and was so humble he named it after his patient.

861
00:42:11,158 --> 00:42:13,358
Speaker 1: I mean it really it spoke to the melody of

862
00:42:13,918 --> 00:42:14,558
Speaker 1: doctor Job.

863
00:42:14,838 --> 00:42:17,398
Speaker 2: I met doctor Job. He was wonderful, like you said,

864
00:42:17,438 --> 00:42:20,358
Speaker 2: He's a night wonderful, nice human being.

865
00:42:20,598 --> 00:42:23,238
Speaker 1: By the way, my favorite Tommy John's story besides the

866
00:42:23,318 --> 00:42:25,758
Speaker 1: time I saw him make three errors on the same play,

867
00:42:26,078 --> 00:42:29,398
Speaker 1: which you'll never see happen again. He was pitching against

868
00:42:29,478 --> 00:42:33,438
Speaker 1: Don Sutton in a game in Anaheim. Yankees Angels and

869
00:42:33,558 --> 00:42:36,518
Speaker 1: George Steinbanner loved to call the dugout during the game

870
00:42:36,718 --> 00:42:39,438
Speaker 1: and tell his managers what to do or what to

871
00:42:39,558 --> 00:42:42,998
Speaker 1: protest with the umpires. And Panela was the manager back then,

872
00:42:43,078 --> 00:42:46,558
Speaker 1: Lou Panella, and you know, Don Sutton had quite the

873
00:42:46,598 --> 00:42:48,878
Speaker 1: reputation for doing things to a baseball that were not

874
00:42:48,998 --> 00:42:51,958
Speaker 1: quite legal. So he called the dugout and he told Panela,

875
00:42:51,958 --> 00:42:53,638
Speaker 1: you better go out there to the umpires and make

876
00:42:53,678 --> 00:42:56,278
Speaker 1: sure you put this game under protest. He's doctor in

877
00:42:56,358 --> 00:43:00,238
Speaker 1: the baseball Lou says to him, George, who's pitching for us?

878
00:43:01,838 --> 00:43:04,758
Speaker 1: That was Tommy John versus Master.

879
00:43:06,038 --> 00:43:06,678
Speaker 3: I'm telling you man.

880
00:43:06,718 --> 00:43:08,838
Speaker 2: They used to actually bring little baggies out to the

881
00:43:08,918 --> 00:43:12,798
Speaker 2: dugout with all their little accouterments in it, and they

882
00:43:12,838 --> 00:43:14,318
Speaker 2: would utilize them in between ennings.

883
00:43:14,358 --> 00:43:16,878
Speaker 3: I saw it. It's unbelievable what had been and what

884
00:43:17,038 --> 00:43:17,278
Speaker 3: is now.

885
00:43:18,638 --> 00:43:22,158
Speaker 1: Good stuff. Hey, Joe, you're our closer, not our starter.

886
00:43:22,318 --> 00:43:24,838
Speaker 1: Well you're also a starter too, but say you're a

887
00:43:24,918 --> 00:43:27,638
Speaker 1: complete game guy. You always bring us to the finish

888
00:43:27,718 --> 00:43:30,078
Speaker 1: line here with some words of wisdom. And who do

889
00:43:30,158 --> 00:43:30,718
Speaker 1: you have today?

890
00:43:31,198 --> 00:43:34,998
Speaker 2: Incredible? Man, We touched on it already. We've already been there,

891
00:43:35,758 --> 00:43:38,958
Speaker 2: just like I was. I was thinking the election again

892
00:43:39,038 --> 00:43:41,838
Speaker 2: that one since I wrote to you from the author

893
00:43:41,878 --> 00:43:47,078
Speaker 2: from the New York Post today. Goury was about conforming

894
00:43:47,318 --> 00:43:51,158
Speaker 2: and independent thinking and individualism and all these other things

895
00:43:51,238 --> 00:43:54,358
Speaker 2: that I thought. That's pretty much what won the election

896
00:43:54,478 --> 00:43:57,918
Speaker 2: this year was those kind of thoughts and not more

897
00:43:57,958 --> 00:44:01,678
Speaker 2: of a data driven thoughts. Was more experience and wisdom

898
00:44:01,758 --> 00:44:07,918
Speaker 2: and straightforwardness and independent thinking. And this fearlessness about the

899
00:44:07,998 --> 00:44:10,518
Speaker 2: way you go about it. So I got several men

900
00:44:10,598 --> 00:44:14,918
Speaker 2: and I couldn't decide which one. And it really started

901
00:44:14,958 --> 00:44:21,198
Speaker 2: again with our boy Albert Einstein, small as the number

902
00:44:21,238 --> 00:44:23,958
Speaker 2: of them that see with their own eyes and feel

903
00:44:23,998 --> 00:44:26,958
Speaker 2: with their own hearts. It began with that thought from him,

904
00:44:26,998 --> 00:44:30,838
Speaker 2: and I loved that. And then Emerson, when a man

905
00:44:30,958 --> 00:44:35,958
Speaker 2: becomes a conformist, he is sacrificing the richness of independent thinking. Wow,

906
00:44:36,718 --> 00:44:39,518
Speaker 2: it's always nice when your you know your own thoughts

907
00:44:39,598 --> 00:44:42,318
Speaker 2: or feelings are your mores, like I said, are validated

908
00:44:42,398 --> 00:44:45,358
Speaker 2: by some pretty smart people. And then there's the one

909
00:44:45,398 --> 00:44:47,958
Speaker 2: thing here, the last one by Maya m I A,

910
00:44:48,118 --> 00:44:50,518
Speaker 2: I guess, but something that we've talked about and I

911
00:44:50,598 --> 00:44:54,478
Speaker 2: totally believe in. The arts are statistically proven to increase

912
00:44:54,638 --> 00:45:00,838
Speaker 2: independent thinking, creativity, discipline, balance, and academic improvement in children.

913
00:45:00,878 --> 00:45:03,318
Speaker 2: I don't think it gets enough. That's why you know

914
00:45:03,318 --> 00:45:05,238
Speaker 2: when I was in or Coagua did all those pieces

915
00:45:05,238 --> 00:45:10,438
Speaker 2: of art with Jason Skeldon from Tampa, trying to My

916
00:45:10,598 --> 00:45:15,078
Speaker 2: motivation was to try to get more young stirs involved

917
00:45:15,118 --> 00:45:17,878
Speaker 2: and young people involved in wanting to watch baseball and

918
00:45:17,998 --> 00:45:20,438
Speaker 2: do it through art, creativity, et cetera.

919
00:45:20,878 --> 00:45:23,238
Speaker 3: So I love all that stuff. I love all of it,

920
00:45:23,478 --> 00:45:25,838
Speaker 3: and it really is germane to what's going on in

921
00:45:25,918 --> 00:45:26,638
Speaker 3: our world today.

922
00:45:27,278 --> 00:45:32,798
Speaker 2: Whereas if you really don't understand the balance between old

923
00:45:32,878 --> 00:45:36,638
Speaker 2: and new, the school of what's happening now, and that's

924
00:45:36,678 --> 00:45:39,278
Speaker 2: really what you have to be more in tune.

925
00:45:38,998 --> 00:45:42,038
Speaker 3: With, not old school, not new school, but being in school.

926
00:45:42,238 --> 00:45:44,558
Speaker 2: That's where you have to be today in order to

927
00:45:45,038 --> 00:45:48,158
Speaker 2: really because you have to understand everybody. Man, it's not

928
00:45:48,278 --> 00:45:50,518
Speaker 2: you just can't understand people that look like you, think

929
00:45:50,598 --> 00:45:52,078
Speaker 2: like you, and talk like you, and act like you.

930
00:45:52,918 --> 00:45:54,678
Speaker 2: To really be a leader, you have to understand people

931
00:45:54,718 --> 00:45:57,518
Speaker 2: that don't look like you, don't think like you, don't

932
00:45:57,558 --> 00:45:59,918
Speaker 2: talk like you. You have to understand those folks too

933
00:46:00,038 --> 00:46:02,078
Speaker 2: to really become a qualified leader.

934
00:46:02,478 --> 00:46:05,118
Speaker 1: Wow, it's a bonus episode. We get three form one today.

935
00:46:05,158 --> 00:46:07,998
Speaker 1: I love it, Joe, Thank you, brother.

936
00:46:08,518 --> 00:46:10,238
Speaker 3: I you know, I was on that this morning.

937
00:46:10,278 --> 00:46:12,318
Speaker 2: I was, and once I read that article, it really,

938
00:46:13,678 --> 00:46:15,718
Speaker 2: you know, took me in this direction because I'm such

939
00:46:15,718 --> 00:46:17,918
Speaker 2: an advocate of that methodology.

940
00:46:18,078 --> 00:46:20,038
Speaker 3: So was it was easy? Yeah?

941
00:46:20,118 --> 00:46:21,798
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what you're talking about here is

942
00:46:22,078 --> 00:46:23,318
Speaker 1: is fighting group think.

943
00:46:23,518 --> 00:46:23,878
Speaker 3: That's right.

944
00:46:24,038 --> 00:46:27,518
Speaker 1: Group think is very lazy and we really have to teach,

945
00:46:27,718 --> 00:46:31,798
Speaker 1: especially our kids. I call it media literacy, where you

946
00:46:31,998 --> 00:46:37,238
Speaker 1: begin and must think critically, because if you just absorb information,

947
00:46:37,398 --> 00:46:41,798
Speaker 1: a lot of it is actually not true. Without critical thinking,

948
00:46:42,358 --> 00:46:44,318
Speaker 1: you know, that's a very dangerous place to be. You know,

949
00:46:44,358 --> 00:46:47,758
Speaker 1: you have to use your mind, not outsource everything to

950
00:46:48,038 --> 00:46:50,878
Speaker 1: you know, google searches or whatever your social media feed

951
00:46:50,998 --> 00:46:55,318
Speaker 1: is giving you. Think, critically, question and ask someone who's

952
00:46:55,358 --> 00:46:57,878
Speaker 1: got a different opinion will explain it to me. That's

953
00:46:57,918 --> 00:46:59,918
Speaker 1: how we learn, never stop learning.

954
00:47:00,398 --> 00:47:04,318
Speaker 2: And this to finalize that from my perspective, one thing

955
00:47:04,358 --> 00:47:07,078
Speaker 2: I missed and I think is missing in today's game

956
00:47:07,198 --> 00:47:08,838
Speaker 2: generally because I talked to a lot of guys even

957
00:47:08,878 --> 00:47:09,718
Speaker 2: though I'm not there.

958
00:47:11,238 --> 00:47:12,678
Speaker 3: Arguing the ability to target.

959
00:47:12,718 --> 00:47:14,438
Speaker 2: I don't mean I don't mean fighting argu I mean

960
00:47:14,558 --> 00:47:18,838
Speaker 2: arguing like you're talking about points, philosophy's thoughts. When you

961
00:47:18,918 --> 00:47:22,038
Speaker 2: get to group think, that person with the biggest stick

962
00:47:22,358 --> 00:47:24,798
Speaker 2: is not going to be challenged. And to me, the

963
00:47:24,878 --> 00:47:27,518
Speaker 2: person with the biggest stick needs to be challenged. And

964
00:47:27,638 --> 00:47:31,238
Speaker 2: when I'm the manager, as a manager, I encourage. I

965
00:47:31,398 --> 00:47:34,678
Speaker 2: wanted listen. If you don't agree with what I'm talking about,

966
00:47:34,918 --> 00:47:36,838
Speaker 2: please do not hold back.

967
00:47:36,998 --> 00:47:38,958
Speaker 3: I need to hear that. I need to hear it now.

968
00:47:39,478 --> 00:47:41,918
Speaker 3: So that's it best.

969
00:47:42,758 --> 00:47:45,238
Speaker 2: My best memories, some of my best memories in the

970
00:47:45,318 --> 00:47:47,558
Speaker 2: minor leagues particular, and even in the big leagues with

971
00:47:47,638 --> 00:47:52,438
Speaker 2: socials group, because we argued, was the mornings before practice began.

972
00:47:52,958 --> 00:47:55,558
Speaker 3: And you'd get like with Bob Clear or Jack Hyatt

973
00:47:55,678 --> 00:47:56,038
Speaker 3: or all.

974
00:47:55,918 --> 00:47:58,918
Speaker 2: These dudes in the locker room and a topic would

975
00:47:58,958 --> 00:48:02,718
Speaker 2: come up, and everybody at that time had strong opinions.

976
00:48:04,438 --> 00:48:08,638
Speaker 2: Johnny McNamara got Cookie Rojas, murv Rentman, I could go

977
00:48:08,718 --> 00:48:12,678
Speaker 2: on and on all strongly opinionated guys, and you had

978
00:48:12,718 --> 00:48:15,078
Speaker 2: to be prepared. Man, if you wanted to say something,

979
00:48:15,198 --> 00:48:17,758
Speaker 2: say go ahead, but you better back it up Larry Hins.

980
00:48:17,918 --> 00:48:19,438
Speaker 2: If you didn't back it up with Larry Man, you

981
00:48:19,558 --> 00:48:22,518
Speaker 2: got absolutely Claymore in mind.

982
00:48:22,398 --> 00:48:23,238
Speaker 3: He just shredd at you.

983
00:48:23,758 --> 00:48:26,718
Speaker 2: So that's the part that I'd like to see in return,

984
00:48:26,958 --> 00:48:31,198
Speaker 2: is a good argument without disliking somebody because you disagreed

985
00:48:31,238 --> 00:48:33,678
Speaker 2: with me. That's the part that is so awful and

986
00:48:33,798 --> 00:48:36,998
Speaker 2: boring to me is the fact that if somebody disagrees

987
00:48:37,038 --> 00:48:40,238
Speaker 2: with you, you basically cannot be friends with this person anymore.

988
00:48:40,638 --> 00:48:42,598
Speaker 2: And that is an awful way to approach life.

989
00:48:43,038 --> 00:48:46,278
Speaker 1: Agreed, and let me finish on one more note on

990
00:48:46,358 --> 00:48:49,158
Speaker 1: our buddy Peter Frampton. Okay, I mentioned he went to

991
00:48:49,278 --> 00:48:52,718
Speaker 1: high school with David Bowie and after his success, Frampton

992
00:48:52,798 --> 00:48:55,598
Speaker 1: really fell on really hard times and it was actually

993
00:48:55,758 --> 00:49:00,878
Speaker 1: David Bowie who sort of rescued him. Bowie recruited him

994
00:49:00,918 --> 00:49:03,318
Speaker 1: to play on an album and had him go on

995
00:49:03,438 --> 00:49:06,958
Speaker 1: tour with him, and according to Frampton, he said, David

996
00:49:07,038 --> 00:49:09,878
Speaker 1: basically pulled me out of the quicksand put me on

997
00:49:09,958 --> 00:49:13,718
Speaker 1: the shore and said now you can start again. It

998
00:49:13,918 --> 00:49:17,078
Speaker 1: was such a gift. How cool is that high school

999
00:49:17,158 --> 00:49:21,078
Speaker 1: buddy pulling him out of the quicksand, as Frampton said,

1000
00:49:21,718 --> 00:49:24,278
Speaker 1: and rescuing him. That's a friend.

1001
00:49:24,998 --> 00:49:26,398
Speaker 3: Never forget where you came from. Brother.

1002
00:49:27,118 --> 00:49:28,998
Speaker 1: Absolutely, this was a lot of fun.

1003
00:49:29,118 --> 00:49:29,318
Speaker 3: Joe.

1004
00:49:29,438 --> 00:49:30,358
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.

1005
00:49:31,118 --> 00:49:31,718
Speaker 3: Thanks Tommy,