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Speaker 1: Hey, this is any and Samantha and welcome to Stephane

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Speaker 1: Never told You production of iHeart Radio. And it is

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Speaker 1: time for another happy hour. Just bite the name. I

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Speaker 1: think this one's going to be mostly a happy hour,

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Speaker 1: or at least like a not unhappy hour, even though

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Speaker 1: we are going to talk about grief but not much

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Speaker 1: okay hour then, yes, it's okay. I think it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be like the kind of enjoyable ranting hour. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you like this kind of thing. I

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Speaker 1: think you'll be into it. But if you don't me Um, So,

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Speaker 1: as always with these segments, drink responsibly. Uh and what

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Speaker 1: are you sipping on? Say? You know how we talked

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Speaker 1: about trying to switch up our drinks and again, but

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Speaker 1: we still have our fave. Yeah, I'm drinking a fave.

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Speaker 1: So I'm drinking my vino verde from Trader Joe's not

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Speaker 1: a sponsor unless they want to give me a case

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Speaker 1: of this wine because I really like it. Um, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just sticking with that today. It sounds nice, sounds refreshing.

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Speaker 1: It is light and refreshing and appily. Okay, Well, I

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Speaker 1: kind of had a similar issue again, so last time

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Speaker 1: I made like a gin and tonic with beer. This time,

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Speaker 1: I made like a gin wine slushy tonic thing. Interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because my friend, I believe I've told the story before,

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Speaker 1: but I have a friend who Katie, who's on her

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Speaker 1: episode about women with red hair. She loves snacks and

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Speaker 1: I don't like snacks, so and she loves desserts and

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Speaker 1: I don't really eat dessert so she'll every time she

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Speaker 1: comes over. She has started to bring desserts and snacks

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Speaker 1: and things that she'll like, and she'll leave them here.

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Speaker 1: But that's part of the problem is I don't like

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Speaker 1: having that stuff around. But she did leave this whole

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Speaker 1: like case of these wine slushies. Oh yeah, And she's

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Speaker 1: become increasingly fresh with me that I won't drink them,

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Speaker 1: but I also won't throw them away. But I'm like, you,

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll want them one day, And she flat out

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Speaker 1: told me I'm never going to drink those because it's

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Speaker 1: become a point of pride now and so I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to be stubborn and drink them slowly. Yes. Um, So

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Speaker 1: today we are going to talk about a tripe I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned before. Um, the sad murdered dad trope. And I

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Speaker 1: know this sounds kind of dark, but the timing of

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Speaker 1: this is it's the anniversary of my dad's death. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was thinking, I feel like, in

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Speaker 1: the years since he's died, I still have occasions where

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Speaker 1: I just get so so sad. Um. And and one

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Speaker 1: of the things I do on the anniversary of his

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Speaker 1: death is I watched Our Wars, which, of course, um,

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Speaker 1: we love Star Wars together. We watched Oars together. I

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Speaker 1: can't hear open one without hearing him. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: sad murder Dad trope is I first heard of it

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Speaker 1: about Darth Vader, so he's the original sad murder Dad

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Speaker 1: in my book. UM. And I did get Samantha knows.

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Speaker 1: I did find this letter he wrote me. I have

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Speaker 1: not opened it yet. I still haven't opened it. I

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Speaker 1: can't do it. I'm going to, but it just feels

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Speaker 1: like it's gonna be such a big before and after.

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Speaker 1: Like once I opened that letter, I think it's gonna

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Speaker 1: change something. It could possibly be like legal documents and

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Speaker 1: I really need them. Um. I was cleaning out my

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Speaker 1: apartment and I just came across this letter that when

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Speaker 1: he gave it to me, he left it on my bed,

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Speaker 1: and when I found it, I was so angry. I

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Speaker 1: just was like, I would never open this, And now

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of sad because who knows what's in there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it would have been important and changed the relationship,

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Speaker 1: but too bad. I will never know. I will open it,

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Speaker 1: I will, but not today, not for me, not for

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Speaker 1: a minute. Even though I said I was going to

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Speaker 1: do it on Father's Day and I never did, and

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Speaker 1: I said I was gonna do the next weekind and

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Speaker 1: I never did. I've picked it up and held it

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Speaker 1: and almost opened it several times and then like no

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Speaker 1: I can't, I can't. Um, you take your time, okay,

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Speaker 1: thank you. It just it does feel like it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a big I don't know. It feels like

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be life changing, or at least potentially like

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Speaker 1: temporarily life changing. Right, it's definitely no matter what, it's

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Speaker 1: your dad's words to you who you have been seen

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Speaker 1: because he passed away a few years ago and now

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Speaker 1: you have those bags again, and you just come to

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Speaker 1: the point of being like kind of okay with his

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Speaker 1: um because he didn't leave you in a good place.

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Speaker 1: That's you know, that's obviously, so you like could be

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Speaker 1: reopening wounds that you don't want to think about. So

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Speaker 1: absolutely that makes perfect sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. I

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Speaker 1: just I have this like I have to read it.

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Speaker 1: I have to read it because somebody said, like you

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Speaker 1: don't have to read it, like maybe you just don't

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Speaker 1: read it, Like no, I have to read it. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just waiting for the time when I just

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Speaker 1: been worried it's going to really like the next two

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Speaker 1: weeks are going to be ruined or something like I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna be able to work or I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And again it could just beat like the legal documents.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. I always got you to read it. I

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Speaker 1: was like, you open it and you tell me what

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Speaker 1: it is and then I can prepare. I can do

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Speaker 1: that for you. We'll see, We'll see it's sitting there

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Speaker 1: chaunting me. It's uh. And I did go home. I

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Speaker 1: went home to see my mom last weekend. And every

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Speaker 1: time I go home, that's pretty like the memories are

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Speaker 1: just everywhere. And then I've never been to busity his

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Speaker 1: grave and every time I kind of drive by it,

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Speaker 1: that's always that always gets me. That's that's a rough time.

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Speaker 1: But again, maybe one day I'll visit it. But all

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Speaker 1: of this to say, I am someone, as you know,

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Speaker 1: who loves anniversaries and traditions and marketing occasions, no matter

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Speaker 1: how sad they might be. So I am going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the sad murder Dad trope UM. And I

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Speaker 1: like to think my dad, who did love Star Wars

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Speaker 1: and Darth Vader and movies in general, would at least

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Speaker 1: get a kick out of it. So this is also

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Speaker 1: an on my mind because I very excitedly showed you.

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Speaker 1: I sent you pictures I finally got my I donated

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Speaker 1: to a oh three, which is the big nonprofit fan

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Speaker 1: fiction website, and I finally got They sent this deck

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Speaker 1: of cards as a thank you to everyone who donated,

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Speaker 1: and each of the cards has a trope a fan

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Speaker 1: fiction tag on it um and They're so cool and

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Speaker 1: I loved them and I'm going to show them to

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Speaker 1: you next time we hang out like everyone, um, But

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Speaker 1: sad murdered Dad was not in there. Oh no, well,

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Speaker 1: yeah I did get these pictures. I was very confused.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what am I looking at? Explain because I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what was happening. And then of course you're like,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'll say. Oh, Okay, very exciting. I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to see them all. You sent a very

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Speaker 1: confused text, that's for sure, because I sent like ten

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Speaker 1: pictures because that's a limit on my phone. I would

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Speaker 1: have sent you like just kept popping up, so I

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Speaker 1: was like, what what's happening? I think that was what's

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Speaker 1: happening right now with resence. Yes, they also didn't have

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Speaker 1: a cinema rolled, but they had a lot of my

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Speaker 1: favorite They had a lot of my favorite tags. But

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Speaker 1: if you don't know what the sad murdered dad trope is,

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Speaker 1: it's essentially exactly what it sounds like. Um. It is

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Speaker 1: a father figure um who uses violence and murder in

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Speaker 1: the name of their child. And it's very sad about it,

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Speaker 1: not about the murder, but it's just sad, just a

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Speaker 1: sad character. And and and Darth Vader is the first

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Speaker 1: time I ever saw that tag. And I he is

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Speaker 1: frequently displayed that way. He's frequently and I mean this

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Speaker 1: is I would say accurate as his character. He's very

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Speaker 1: possessive of Luke because he doesn't know Leah as his child.

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Speaker 1: When we see him very possessive, so like he can

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Speaker 1: hurt Luke, but no one else can hurt Luke, and

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Speaker 1: he will like kill anyone, including the Emperor for Luke.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of violence in his name that Luke

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Speaker 1: doesn't want. But but he's also very sad as a character.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the introspections I've read very sad because

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Speaker 1: he missed out on Luke's life. He Luke doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to be with him after he makes the announcement UM,

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Speaker 1: the revelation I am your father, And it is a

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Speaker 1: really interesting trope and it's one I feel like now

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Speaker 1: that I have that name for it, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of a funny like fan fiction name UM for I

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Speaker 1: see it all the time UM. And we have talked

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Speaker 1: about it before. We talked about it in our Survival

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Speaker 1: video game series, like anytime we bring up the Last

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Speaker 1: of Us because Joel, I would say, is a sad

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Speaker 1: murder Dad. And that weekend where we did Star Wars

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Speaker 1: and Last of Us for my birthday even joked it

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Speaker 1: could be like sad murder Dad. Yes, shot to find

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Speaker 1: the perfect name, but I think it's a sad soup

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Speaker 1: day soup we can, I think, And it was great.

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Speaker 1: The soup was not sad that people no, no, but

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Speaker 1: I did cry. I remember you brought out that piece

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Speaker 1: of pie and I was crying and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is perfect I did. I did, so thank you.

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Speaker 1: Um So, as you know, I also love the Simon

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Speaker 1: Roll tag. That's my favorite, UM, which is just somebody

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Speaker 1: who's like a sweetheart, like the most genuine, sincere sweetheart.

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Speaker 1: And Luke has often portrayed that way, not always but often.

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Speaker 1: UM So if you get like the sad murder Dad

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Speaker 1: and then the Cinnamon Roll, I think like the dichotomy

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Speaker 1: there is very interesting because you've got somebody like Luke

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Speaker 1: who is like so sweet, and then Vader who's like

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Speaker 1: literally kind of this hul king monster who's killing everybody,

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Speaker 1: and yet um they're related. But I think like these

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Speaker 1: are heightened fan fiction terms. But again I think this

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Speaker 1: is the same thing that we see all the time.

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Speaker 1: Or they is a usually cut off, emotionally constipated man

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Speaker 1: who lost something someone usually his wife and or daughter

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Speaker 1: or a child, goes down a dark spiral, cuts off

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Speaker 1: from everybody, becomes violent, becomes cold, meats a child or

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Speaker 1: somebody usually a young girl. But in this case no um,

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Speaker 1: but like Joel with Ellie, where you meet a young

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Speaker 1: girl who's like the ultimate innocence. I wouldn't call her

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Speaker 1: quite as some mineral, but it's like that same idea

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Speaker 1: of that foil against each other and then the sad

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Speaker 1: murder dad in question slowly like learns to feel again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then um, but in doing so does it in

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Speaker 1: a very violent and very like toxic masculinity way of

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Speaker 1: of killing everybody? Um? Yeah, And so I do think

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Speaker 1: when I think about the last of us, and I

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Speaker 1: know I've talked about this ad nauseum and I probably

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Speaker 1: will forever, Like I feel like people, I guess, I

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Speaker 1: just I have this question that I feel like I

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Speaker 1: know the answer to, But is why why are we

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Speaker 1: so willing to excuse violence and bad behavior for fathers

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Speaker 1: in particular? Well, while mothers are women who engage in

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Speaker 1: this behavior are evil or bad or failures. And we've

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Speaker 1: got a pretty good episode I think coming up where

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some of this stuff soon

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Speaker 1: about why we treat mothers just that way. But fathers

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Speaker 1: were like, Oh, but he's so sweet, he's trying, he

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Speaker 1: cares so much, He'll kill all those people. Isn't that good? Like?

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Speaker 1: Is it? It's like showing showing you care through violence.

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Speaker 1: That's not the person the cinnamon roll in question doesn't want,

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Speaker 1: in fact, really really doesn't want, but you're doing it

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Speaker 1: in their name, and it's supposed to be proof of

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Speaker 1: how much you care, because I think we just value

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Speaker 1: so much masculine behavior more. It's also more dramatic, like

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Speaker 1: I'll give you that, but it's not It is certainly

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Speaker 1: more I would say, a masculine realm. Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: then this is a bigger issue. Perhaps then we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into two in depth in this one. But

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Speaker 1: it is something I think about too where I can't

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Speaker 1: help but sort of psychoanalyze writers sometimes. And it seems

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Speaker 1: like we have a whole generation of writers who I

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Speaker 1: could be wrong. I don't know they're lives, but maybe

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Speaker 1: had a father who wasn't there that much, or like

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Speaker 1: they felt like as a kid they had to do

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Speaker 1: something to keep them around, or or just closed off. Again,

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Speaker 1: I could be totally wrong, but it's just like we

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Speaker 1: see these stories a lot. Maybe they feel that way

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Speaker 1: as fathers themselves, they feel like they're failing, they're so

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Speaker 1: their way at their job all the time writing these things.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's just sort of like, I

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Speaker 1: see a lot of male writers continually writing these things,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just kind of curious, curious why. Indeed, indeed,

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Speaker 1: I read a funny article about it in Star Wars

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Speaker 1: and they were like why, because you know, like the

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Speaker 1: Mandalorian and Grogu is the same essentially, Like why we

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Speaker 1: keep seeing this dynamic of sort of a like closed off, cold,

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Speaker 1: violent man who's honestly not very good at a job. No,

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Speaker 1: I love him. I love Darth Vader, but he's also

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Speaker 1: not very good at his job. Like he's he's had

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Speaker 1: a lot of screw ups in his day. Sure, And

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Speaker 1: I was telling my friend the other day that's one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite parts of the end Return of the

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Speaker 1: Jedi is is because he kind of failed as a

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Speaker 1: Sip and Luke kind of failed as a Jedi, and

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Speaker 1: they chose each other in the end. But you know,

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Speaker 1: like a failure it makes a character interesting. But I

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Speaker 1: just saying, like this writer also made the point of

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Speaker 1: it's it's intriguing that we're seeing this play out many

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Speaker 1: times in this universe. It is indeed intriguing. You're right,

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Speaker 1: you are correct, You are correct. As much as I

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Speaker 1: have been complaining about it and We're big proponents of

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Speaker 1: being cognizant of your media and the messages you send.

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Speaker 1: I do love the trope on fan fiction. Usually in

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Speaker 1: fan fiction it's less violent, usually not always, but usually

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Speaker 1: it's more like they're very Darth Vader is very very sad.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, man, my son don't like me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know because I haven't read the fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: but he's sad because also he's mainly robot and it's painful,

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Speaker 1: and it's painful. Yes, he's got a lot of reasons

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Speaker 1: to be sad. I'm not gonna take that away from

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Speaker 1: him at all. Is his own doing, yes, also true. Again,

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Speaker 1: I just feel like we're so much more ready to

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Speaker 1: forgive these male characters that we are women characters. Um

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Speaker 1: And just like Refa in recent Obi one, I remember

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Speaker 1: I paused. I was like, I already have it ready,

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Speaker 1: but I want to wait because I think there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a reaction and to the final episode, and I

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Speaker 1: want to see if I if I'm right. And when

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Speaker 1: I thought was gonna happen, was people were going to

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Speaker 1: how to say this at this point, they were going

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Speaker 1: to look for a reason for her to die, no

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Speaker 1: matter what, like they wanted her to die no matter what,

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Speaker 1: Whereas with I feel like with Darth Vader, people would

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Speaker 1: be more like trying to find a way where he

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Speaker 1: could live. Um and we've talked about that too, where

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Speaker 1: like a lot of these sad murder dads never actually

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Speaker 1: have to do the work of the redemption part. They

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Speaker 1: just die. They die, yeah, and then they don't have

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Speaker 1: to deal with all the fallout. Um. Like, I think

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Speaker 1: that's still a powerful story of you know, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: forgiveness whatever I make it. I'm making it sound really trite,

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Speaker 1: but I do think it's really it's a powerful story.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately you died before you had to deal with

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Speaker 1: the fall out the reality of mm hmmm. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: those are just my thoughts on this trope that I

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Speaker 1: frequently run across in Vanishtion. And I do think it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting because I think it's everywhere. Um, I think

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Speaker 1: it's I think it's very popular in pop culture. I

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Speaker 1: even saw kind of in The Boys, which I just watched.

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Speaker 1: I was like, huh, there it is, there it is.

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Speaker 1: It shows up in a few different ways, it really does.

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Speaker 1: The Boys is a whole different commentary because the first

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Speaker 1: couple of seasons were about mommy issues and now it's

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Speaker 1: gone on to daddy issues. So it's true the white spectrum,

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Speaker 1: Well prass will return, and we definitely do have something

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Speaker 1: coming up that we're excited to talk about with the

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Speaker 1: depiction of mothers in media in recent media, recent media. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're excited about that and uh, always excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about these topics. So thank you and cheers. Cheers

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Speaker 1: to Sad Murder Dam. Cheers to Sad Murder if you

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Speaker 1: were oh gosh, if you're around, I guess no, please stop,

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Speaker 1: and cheers to you for listening. As always, if there's

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Speaker 1: a topic you would like for us to cover, please

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Speaker 1: let us know. You can emails that stuff media mom

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Speaker 1: stuff at I hurt me dot com. You can viend

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Speaker 1: us on Twitter at Mom's podcast or Instagram that stuff

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Speaker 1: I never told you things. It's always you are super producer, Christina.

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Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. The subjection to I Heart Radio for more.

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Speaker 1: Podcast from my Heart Radio is at the Higher radew app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast or ever you listen to your favorite shows