1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more. Our discussion today is 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: going to center around the death of a person who 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: ended their own life with a three fifty seven handgun 4 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: in Canada. But that's not near the end of the tale, 5 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, it's it's only the beginning. 6 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: In that interesting in life, you know, you have these 7 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: beginnings that sometime occur at the end because there's an 8 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: entire story that is going to be revealed, and has 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: been revealing itself over many, many years and still to 10 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: this day, new pages are written. We're going to talk 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: about a case that Dave and I have previously covered, 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: but there has been a new development, and that development 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: is the identification of a long since dead young father 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: who went missing back in nineteen ninety three. We now 15 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: know who he is and he died apparently at the 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: hands of arguably one of the biggest monsters in the 17 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: history of serial killers in the United States. I'm Joseph 18 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Dave. I was singing 19 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: about something, you know, as I was kind of putting 20 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: my thoughts together about what we're going to discuss, and 21 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and open the door for this right now, 22 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: but her ball moister, who you know, had this large 23 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: farm outside of Indianapolis. He had been a successful businessman, 24 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: and in the wake of his death there are particulated 25 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: bits of human remains found all over his property. But 26 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: that is of interest. But I got to back up 27 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: just for a second and kind of relay this. And 28 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: I'd given this a bit of thought. This guy blew 29 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: his brains out in Ontario, Canada, he cited in a 30 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: note that he had written, which turned out to be 31 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: about three pages long. By the way, suicide notes are rare. 32 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: They don't happen like most people think that it does happen. 33 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: But this guy took the time to write a note 34 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: that went for three pages. And in that note he 35 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: stated how he was. He felt down about his marriage 36 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: falling apart, and about business problems and all this, and oh, 37 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: by the way, he shot himself in apparently like a 38 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: park in Ontario, and he was regretting, lamenting the fact 39 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: that he had left a mess for the people to 40 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: clean up. And I felt just though that that was 41 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: much akin to the captain of the Titanic apologizing for 42 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: the quality of the food at the last meal. The 43 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: people ate on the Titanic after it had already struck 44 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: an Iceberg, because that's really the only way I could 45 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: really frame it in my mind. He never mentioned in 46 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: his note, not even a whisper about all of these 47 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: young men whose lives he had taken and their families 48 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: whose lives he had also destroyed. It's almost like this 49 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: kind of twisted, twisted worldview. And I think, to say 50 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the very least, this guy did, in fact have a 51 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: very twisted worldview. 52 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: Buddy. You know, when we did the story the first 53 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: time on herb bomb Eister, it was because of the headline, 54 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: if you remember, I think it was the New York 55 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: Post that had ten thousand remains found on you know, 56 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: which it's correct and not correct at the same time, 57 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: you know. 58 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: But it's what caught my attention with it, because if 59 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: you're saying ten thousand remains, I'm thinking we're I'm thinking 60 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: that we're down in the catacombs somewhere over in France 61 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: or one of these places where they take all of 62 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: the bodies and bury them under ground. You got thousands 63 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: of That's not what they're talking about. They're actually talking 64 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: about particulated or. 65 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, pieces of it. I mean, my one finger. You know, 66 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: my index finger on this hand could be a thousand pieces, 67 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: you know, But anyway you look at it, it got attention, 68 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: and it did bring about the fact that herb bomb Eister, 69 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: before he killed himself, was possibly one of the top 70 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: ten serial killers in the United States of America, because 71 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: we still don't know the total of number of people 72 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: he actually killed. We in this case today, Joseph Scott Morgan, 73 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: we actually have somebody who has now been identified as 74 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: a victim whose remains were found out on bom Meister's property, 75 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: but he was never part of the discussion within law 76 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: enforcement as a victim. As a matter of fact, he 77 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: had gone missing. The man went missing. I'm gonna have 78 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: to have to be very gentle on this because I 79 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: don't know the situation of the marriage. But we do 80 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: have a man, his name Daniel Thomas Hallerin. Dan Hallarin 81 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: was married and he and his wife had a daughter. 82 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, his daughter, now telling the story 83 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: all these years later, said basically, her mother put him 84 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: on the road, put him on a plane back to Indiana, 85 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: and that it was before I think she was not 86 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: even two years old yet when this hat was And 87 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: so she's a baby mom's hatter pill. We don't know. 88 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: We're only getting one side of this story. And the 89 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: reason is because Daniel Halleran went missing. Almost immediately they 90 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: got him on the plane or whatever sent him back Daniana, 91 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: and nothing, He's gone. And so this girl, this woman 92 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 2: grows up and imagine this, growing up your entire life 93 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: not knowing where your dad is, knowing that you know 94 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: your dad was put on the road that he doesn't know. 95 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: He doesn't It wasn't there at kindergarten. He wasn't there 96 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: at your sixth grade, he wasn't there at your prom. 97 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: He's missed out on your entire life. You've never known. 98 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: And in her case, bless her heart, she said that 99 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: she wondered some days, you know, is he in the crowd? 100 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: Is he watching? Is he going to just show up? 101 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: The dream of every child who has been abandoned by 102 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: a parent. But in this case, she found out all 103 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: these years later. And this is the not the closure 104 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: that people think it is, but it actually does actually 105 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: begin the process of healing. I think, Joe, and it's 106 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: why you and I love sharing stories of authorm because 107 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: this is such an authorum story. You know, dnasolves dot 108 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: Com the whole thing. This young woman who has grown 109 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: up without her dad, wondering what happened? Is he here? 110 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: Is he there? She finds out that he's never been there. 111 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: He has been dead pretty much since the day he 112 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: was sent back to Indiana. They don't know exactly when 113 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: he died, but they do know that because of Authorm, 114 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: they were able to solve at least the remains who 115 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: this is. But Joe, He's one of the people they 116 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: didn't even consider as a possible victim on the property. 117 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: I've Herbert, and that boggles my mind. 118 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: It does. It does for me too. Look, I gotta 119 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: tell you I love Indiana and I love Indianapolis. I've 120 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: been there several times throughout my career. I've taught, I've 121 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: taught corners in in Indiana and lovely people. Uh, my 122 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: family have spent time up there. I've almost said. I've 123 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: always said it's it's kind of like the South in 124 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: the North, uh, kind of an aggra based environment. I've 125 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: never once said, yeah, it's kind of got one big city, 126 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, you got a lot of little small farm 127 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: in towns. I love the movie Hoosiers. What can I say? 128 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: I can't help it God Rest Jean Gene Hackman soul. Uh. 129 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, I've I've I've often thought, you know, well, Indianapolis. 130 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: I've been there a couple of times for the n 131 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: c A as uh, the basketball tournament. JESU has played 132 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: up there. And it's a big town. It's not the 133 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: biggest town, okay by far, it's not the biggest town 134 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: in the US. So when you've got a person that 135 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: is missing that fits a type, okay, young relatively young 136 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: white male that has gone missing out of here and 137 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: seems to have just vanished into thin air, I'm really 138 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering why was he not on the list 139 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: of Bollmuster's victims. Why was he never considered? I tell 140 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: you who did consider him? According to according to Halaren's daughter, 141 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: her name. 142 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: Is Coral, not Carol, but Coral. 143 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: Like Coral Reef. She reports to us that Halarin's mother, 144 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: who would be her grandmother, had told her in the 145 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: past that she felt as though that her son had 146 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: been a victim, had actually been a victim of Ballmeister. 147 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: And I find that very intriguing because I think there's 148 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: a lot of I think there's a lot that we 149 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: can kind of speculate about in in in that in 150 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: that context, knowing now what we know about ball Meister, 151 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: he had very according to what the police have said, 152 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: he had very specific areas that he would literally hunt 153 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: in and and they are hunters. You know, it makes 154 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: me think of I noticed in one of your notes 155 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: you had the word Dahmer written written in there where 156 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: he would frequent the gay bars in Indianapolis and he 157 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: would victimize, victimized young men there and he would take 158 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: them out and you know, do away with them. But 159 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: here's here's another interesting part. You hear a lot about 160 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the hunting grounds that he had, and also these particulated 161 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: remains that they're finding at this Fox Hall of farm 162 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: that he owned. I think it's like nineteen acres or something. 163 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: He lived there with his wife and his three kids, 164 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: bamb Eister that is. And you know, they make it 165 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: sound like this this beautiful bucolic place. I think that 166 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: it probably was, had a large house on it, extensive property. 167 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: You hear a lot about those remains, but Dave, you know, 168 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: there had been young men that were disappearing prior to 169 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: him moving to Fox Hall, purchasing Fox Hollow and moving there, 170 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: and that individual had been had been named as the 171 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: ICE seventy Strangler, and all of the and this this started. 172 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: The first of these bodies started popping up in nineteen eighty, 173 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: Dave in nineteen eighty these bodies that started, and the 174 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: bodies would be in various states of dress. They were 175 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: found in wooded areas and ponds, and they were all 176 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: along the I seventy corridor through that area. It's just 177 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: that when he moved, the bodies that were dying at 178 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: the hands of the I seventy Strangler cease turning up 179 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: like that. It just stopped, like as of nineteen ninety. 180 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: So you know how the I seventy Strangler is active. 181 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: They know they're onto something here. They've got a name 182 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: for him, and then all of a sudden those stop 183 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: and no solution they got. They're going to assume, like 184 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: the Bundy cases when they ended in Washington and started 185 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: in Utah, they assumed that whoever was doing the Washington killings, Oh, 186 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 2: that guy's either in jail or dead. Same thing here, 187 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 2: the I seventy Strangler stopped. Okay, maybe he's in jail 188 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: or debt, you know, on other charges, or came up 189 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: against somebody and he couldn't beat him or whatever. But 190 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: in this case, you've got bomb eister who was leading 191 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: a double life out on that Fox Hollow Farm where 192 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: you mentioned the wife and kids. He's got these secondhand 193 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: thrift stores he's operating, got money coming in. Meanwhile, we've 194 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 2: got remains, pieces of remains all over Fox Hollow Farm, 195 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 2: And it's beyond frustrating to think that he might have 196 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: been the I seventies strangler in that unsolved case before 197 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: he goes to Fox Hollow. Is that what we're looking 198 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: at now? But he was this guy and then he 199 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: buys Fox Hollow Farm and now he has a new 200 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: hunting ground. 201 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking. And I'd be very 202 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: very curious to try to understand, you know, if his 203 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: hunting ground changed as well, you know, because his geographic 204 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: location obviously changed. The calling this the I seventy Strangler 205 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: almost gives it, almost gives it an air of what's 206 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: it kind of a transient nature to it that is 207 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: found in the Ice seventy corridor, but it's not like 208 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: a specific location. Now you've you've actually got a person 209 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: allegedly I hate that word, allegedly that has now got 210 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: a central location where they're going into a large the 211 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: closest metropolitan area and you know, kind of hunting in 212 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: that area and bringing them back to to this place 213 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: and either killing them there or kill them in another location, 214 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: bringing them back there, and then rendering the bodies down 215 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: till they're particulated. 216 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: Okay, you're going to have to explain particulated a little bit, Joe. 217 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 218 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: But here's my other the reason I put the note 219 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: in there about Dahmer, it's because the Fox Hollow Farm investigation. 220 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: It's right on the heels of Dahmer where we had Dahmer, 221 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: you know, going and frequently cruising. Yeah, yeah, homosexual establishments 222 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: and killing and all that, and we've got a very 223 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: similar thing taking place. We're not talking twenty five or 224 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: thirty years at we're talking they were actively going on 225 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: while they while Dahmer was killing in Milwaukee, there were 226 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: some deaths down here in Indiana. I'm just wondering why 227 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: there wasn't some kind of thought process going, Wait a minute, 228 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: we've got a very similar thing going on down here 229 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: with dead gay men or missing game in I guess 230 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: because they didn't find the bodies because they were out 231 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: particulated at some point they're gone, they're missing. But now, particulator, 232 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: are we talking about you? And I went through this before, 233 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to remember. Wasn't it crushing them down 234 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: to the smallest possible Yeah? 235 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's I'm glad you said that because one 236 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: of the terms that has been used to talk about 237 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: to talk about the condition of the remains two of 238 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: them burned and crushed. So if you're going to crush something, 239 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: first off, you have to get it to a let's see, 240 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: how can I say this. You have to get it 241 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: into a state where it can be crushed. Now people 242 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: would think, well, yeah, you can. You can actually crush 243 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: somebody's somebody's arm. That's intact. It can be crushed in fact, 244 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: But is it possible to actually crush it down to 245 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: its base elements? No, it's not. So it has to 246 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: be rendered down either by stripping tissue or burning tissue, 247 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: and in this case, I think it was probably burning. 248 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: Let me throw out some names city names to you 249 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: real quick. Chicago, St. Louis, Evansville, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Cincinnati, Ohio, Dayton, Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, 250 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: Fort Wayne, Indiana, all of these cities literally surround Indianapolis 251 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: as if Indianapolis is the center of a target, and 252 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: they're all connected, each one of these cities to interstates 253 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: that run through each of them, that almost like a 254 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: giant spiderweb spread out from Indianapolis, Dave. They have said 255 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: that Baumeister was a prolific serial killer. Some have even 256 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: opined that, for all we know, he could be one 257 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: of the most prolific. When you begin to look at 258 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: the central location of Indianapolis, and I would encourage anybody 259 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: to go onto your computer and just search Indianapolis, and 260 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: then there's always a map that pops up with it, 261 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: particularly if you do a Google search, click on that 262 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: map and zoom out, and you'll see what I'm talking about. 263 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: It looks like a bullseye with Indianapolis right in the center. 264 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: I really wonder, Dave, how many other young men, young 265 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: gay men, and perhaps were disappeared out of these other 266 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: metropolitan areas within easy driving distance of Indianapolis, because I 267 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: think that there's a method to his madness. And as 268 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: we've learned, there was madness here because Ballmeister had at 269 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: some point in his life been diagnosed as a schizophrenic 270 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: and untreated schizophrenic And what. 271 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 2: Does that actually mean untreated because obviously to get that diagnosis, 272 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: he's under the care of a physician of some sort, 273 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: but they chose to not medicat or he chose to 274 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: not take it. I mean, that's a dangerous thing to 275 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: save about somebody. 276 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. My stepfather was a diagnosed schizophrenic at 277 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: some point in tom and he had always wondered. When 278 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: I was a kid, he take us to church all 279 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: the time, and he talked about how evil psychiatrists and 280 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: psychologists were, and you know, and it wasn't until many 281 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: years later he's gone. Now, it wasn't until many years 282 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: later that I discovered he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. 283 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: And he had this, uh, just this incredible hatred for 284 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: mental health workers. And it's it's almost like a sign 285 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: of weakness. I guess that if you've been diagnosed this way, 286 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: that uh, you know, just through sheer willpower, you're going 287 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: to go out and try to heal thyself or whatever 288 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: the case might be, or I'll show them. And of 289 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: course that that when you have a diagnosis of schizophrenia 290 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: and you're and you're going around untreated, that's a problem 291 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: and what's really interesting is that, you know, Ballmeister had 292 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: had shown evidences of really odd, aberrant behavior even as 293 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: a young man. You know, there's stories of him playing 294 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: with dead animals. There's actually he was apparently a Europhile, 295 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: which is one of the pelias. 296 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: Uh. 297 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: He had a fascination with with urine. He had been 298 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: I think working We'll see what was it. He was 299 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: working in a at some organization like in where he 300 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: would have access to the mail. And there was a 301 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: letter that was addressed that was either originating from this 302 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: location or was coming in I'm not I can't remember now, 303 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: addressed to like the governor of Indiana, and he urinated 304 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: on the on the envelope. 305 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: And he this is Babes you were talking about. 306 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is Ballbmeister that we're talking about. So he 307 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: had he had these uh, these paraphilias, at least one 308 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: that we know of, which is this kind of avarant 309 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: sexual fascination. You know that he would have uh and 310 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, I look at and not only that, but 311 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: he he was always described as being very odd. I 312 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: watched an interview with one of his former employees who 313 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: had been a teenager and now get this tell me 314 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: this that I bet this. I bet this man is 315 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: terrified every single day. You know, he kind of reflects back. 316 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: He had been fifteen years old and had worked for 317 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: Bob Meister at the Save a Lot, one of the 318 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: Save a Lot thrift stores, not to be confused with 319 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: Save a Lot grocery stores. We have those all over 320 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: the South. There's a lot of people that go to them. 321 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: They're fine stores, it's not the same thing. These thrift 322 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: stores that he owned were in the Indianapolis area, and 323 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: so this young man was talking about how they would 324 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: take in items like you do you know at a 325 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: thrift store. My wife spends a lot of time in 326 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: thrift store, so I know this sort of thing. She 327 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: loves going to them with my daughter. And you know, 328 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: they have to sort, they have to sort all of 329 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: this stuff that comes in and you put it in 330 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: separate binds, you know, by whatever the item is, is 331 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: it jackets or is it pants, or is it shoes 332 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: or is it children's toys? And he described how Ballmeister 333 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: would present in this Really he would become highly agitated 334 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: if there was something that had been discarded as like 335 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: worthless that they couldn't use, and that the kid had 336 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: tossed it aside or put it on the side and 337 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: didn't include it in the bend that would go out 338 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: on the floor, and not that some other person would 339 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: would not have, you know, been equally as enraged. But 340 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: he said it was almost at an inappropriate level, and 341 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: people were terrified anytime to see him coming. And you know, 342 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: he tries to comport himself as this this young business 343 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: business dude that had been very successful, you know, and 344 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: he's moving up the Laddie's he's got himself a wife, 345 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: he's got himself three kids. You know, he's got he's 346 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: got this big spread. The only thing about it is 347 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: at this point in time, and like, you know, kind 348 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: of echoing what this young man had said in the interview, 349 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 1: no one knew that there were thousands of particulated body 350 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: parts that were on that property that had been crushed up. 351 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: The last thing I'll say about this interview, the young 352 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: man said that he had been literally in the store 353 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: alone with him at night. This kid was he was 354 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: fifteen when this was going on, and he thought, you know, 355 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: that could have been me, you know that that could 356 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: have happened to and ball moister would slip away and 357 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: not be there for protracted period of time. Then this 358 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: kid was kind of reminiscing over this and saying, I 359 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: wonder when he was not at the store and I 360 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: was working for him, was he cruising bars in Indianapolis 361 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: and picking out victims and taping them and torturing and 362 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: killing them and then disposing of the remains. 363 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: That's a rough thing to live with, you know, Gosh, 364 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 2: basically it really is. Now in nineteen ninety four, Bombmeister 365 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: picks up a guy in the neighborhood of an Indianapolis 366 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: gay bar and he brings him out to their home 367 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: for a sexual encounter. But the man says he's so 368 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: lucky he escaped alive that he went to cops. Now, 369 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 2: this is a very short cliffs version of the you know, 370 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: we're those things using college cliff quotes. Yeah, cliffs nuts, 371 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 2: all right, because we don't know a whole lot of 372 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: what went on. We know that it was a consensual 373 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 2: homosexual encounter that was planned. Yet whatever happened, this guy 374 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: got out and went straight to the cops, saying he 375 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: felt lucky to be alive. And this is again where 376 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: I'm I'm back to that time period. I I guess 377 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety four, there had been so much chot 378 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: talk of the Jeffrey Dahmer case nationwide that I'm struck 379 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: by this story of a man comes into the police 380 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 2: department and says, I'm really afraid of what just took place. 381 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 2: And this encounter matches up with what we know of 382 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dahmer, and it's in that same time period. Why 383 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: couldn't they put two and two together and at least 384 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: look at him. Oh wait a minute, Joe. They did. 385 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: They did put two and two together and they started 386 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: looking at Bommeister. So I'm thinking, this is nineteen ninety four. 387 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: Now we know we've already said that bom Meister took 388 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: his own life just a couple of years later. So 389 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: from the ninety four incident when this man goes to 390 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 2: police saying I'm lucky to be alive, and they were 391 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: able to put things together and realife we might have 392 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: a bad actor here, we might have Againe, they did. 393 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: And they had confirmatory information day from another person as well, 394 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: where this guy reported there was a guy at one 395 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: of these bars that reported that his friend was missing, 396 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: and he tried to give a description of the guy, 397 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: and the cops told him at the time, if you 398 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: see him again, let us know. And guy's using a 399 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: very specific nom de gere, a false name at this 400 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: particular time. Sure enough, he shows up again, and you 401 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: talk about developing probable cause. This guy gets his license plate. Wow. 402 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: And so when he gets that information, so you've got 403 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: these two sources that are coming at you. And this 404 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: is this is an investigator's ultimate dream here where you 405 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: can get multiple confirmatory sources. They were able at that 406 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: point in time to go and begin to question or 407 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: begin to watch ball Miser and what he was doing, 408 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: and that led them to this farm that he possessed. 409 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: And strangely enough, Balls they came to this location where 410 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: these bodies had already been deposited. Can you imagine being 411 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: a cop and you're this You're on the same nineteen 412 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: acres that there are tens of bodies located on, and 413 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: you're you know that something's up, Your spoty senses are tingling, 414 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: and you're talking to this guy. Do you mind if 415 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: we come in and just kind of look through your property? No, 416 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: you can't. They show up when he's not there, They 417 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: ask his wife, and his wife is like fervent, No, 418 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: you can't. Well, as time went by, she got a 419 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: little bit scared. She got scared of what he might 420 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: do and his behavior, because suddenly, isn't it odd that 421 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: you can be married to somebody and maybe not think 422 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: that their behavior is odd because it becomes so normalized 423 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: in your life, their appearance, their actions, their responses to things, 424 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, it takes like a sudden 425 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: jolt or you know, a splash of cold water in 426 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: the face to say, wait, I need to wake up 427 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 1: from this fantasy I'm living in. I'm scared of this 428 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: guy now. And as it turns out, you know, they 429 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: wind up getting a warrant for the property. But you know, 430 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: BA meister knew that all was at an end at 431 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: this point in time that he there was. You know, 432 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: he was in an unrecoverable flat spin at this point, 433 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: and I guess he interpreted that is I have nothing 434 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: that I can do. I'm going to hop in my 435 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: car and I'm heading out to the Great White North. 436 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: And you know, of course that ended with him blowing 437 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: his brains out up there. 438 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: When we looked at his suicide, he used at three 439 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 2: fifty seven, right, Yeah, what would that do. In terms 440 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: of the actual physicalness of something like that, I mean, 441 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: is that going to just be blood pouring out of 442 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: the mouth or is it going to be an exit 443 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: wound that blows out the back of your head. 444 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: It all depends on, first off, where the shot is initiated, 445 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: where the point of entrance is. If anyone is familiar 446 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: with the case of the former Secretary of Treasury for 447 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: the State of Pennsylvania, Bud Dwyer, that went on, that 448 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: was on camera at a news conference. Yeah, as a 449 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: matter of fact, when that happened, I was still working 450 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: in New Orleans and we had a friend of ours 451 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: that was a reporter and got us the first unedited 452 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: edition of that. And back then during that period of time, 453 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: I think that was the late eighties early nineties. I 454 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: can't remember budwire, but at any rate, that old adage 455 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: about the camera never blinks, Well, he used a three 456 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: P fifty seven magnum and that was an intra orial 457 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: gunshot wound where he plays, he takes it out of 458 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: a paper bag, sticks it the muzzle in his mouth 459 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: and for a second, if you slow it down, you 460 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: can actually see his cheeks expand with gas. His expansion 461 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: because one of the things you learn about about the 462 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: destructive people always ask me relative to gunshot wounds, what 463 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: is it that people naturally think that it's the projectile 464 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: that is doing so much disruption to the head, And yes, 465 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: it does. I'd be a fool to say otherwise. However, 466 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: the other piece of this is the rapidly expanding gas. 467 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: We all know scientifically that hot air always expands, okay, 468 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: always expands, it doesn't contract. And people might not realize 469 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: the force of this hot gas as it as it 470 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: comes out of the muzzle of the weapon, it's looking 471 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: to expand out as far as it possibly can. Well, 472 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: you're firing of a barrel. Projectile is coming out, but 473 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: the hot gas is coming out as well. Well, if 474 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: it's an intra oral gunshot wound, it's going to find 475 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: that gas is going to find the weakest spots. If 476 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: you feel along the roof of your mouth with the 477 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: tip of your tongue, the bony surface up there, you've 478 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: actually got what is referred to as a palaton suture, 479 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: which is and there's actually three I think there's a 480 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: primary that runs down a central one, and then there's 481 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: two and like let's see if we flipped it, it 482 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: would be running east and west and kind of north 483 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: and south, like points of a compass. I was going 484 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: to say in the vertical plane, in the horizontal plane, 485 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: but we won't do that. Those are the weakest spots 486 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: in the mouth. So those sutures that draw our body 487 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: together as we're forming a Mommy's tommy, those are weak spots. 488 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: And so when you see heads that will open up. 489 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: First off, those will part, the hard palette will split, 490 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: the gas is continue to travel up through the cranial 491 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: vault as we and when it gets into the cranial vault, 492 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: you've got sutures that are on the outside. And when 493 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: I'm saying suitres, guys, I'm not saying sutures like you're 494 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: sowing something up like a wound. Suture Lines are these 495 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: points of fusion that run along our skulls. And so 496 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: those are weak spots. And if you see a skull, 497 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: do yourself a favor. Look at a human skull and 498 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: look at those kind of real interlocking plates. You'll see 499 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: the suture line that runs across air and the plates 500 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,239 Speaker 1: are actually locked together. It looks like teeth. Those are 501 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: suture lines, and so will that expanding gas will fracture 502 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: along those lines, so you'll have these heads that will 503 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: come apart. So yeah, a three fifty seven magnum would 504 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: certainly do that. I find it very interesting that he 505 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: chose a weapon like that BALLB miister to do this, 506 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: but when it came to killing his victims will never 507 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: I don't think know how many of the victims were 508 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: killed that were found at Fox Hollow. However, what we 509 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: will what we do have is if we are to 510 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: believe that he was, in fact the I seventy strangler, 511 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: we have a real insight into what his methodology was. 512 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: Why did it vary with him? Why didn't he wrap 513 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,959 Speaker 1: a noose around his neck and hang himself? Why didn't 514 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: he do that? You know, if he so fixated on 515 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: depriving individuals of oxygen, these poor men that had no 516 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: idea what was coming, he wrapped his hands around their 517 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: throats and squeezed the life out of him. It looks 518 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: as though the BALLB Moister was rather merciful to himself. 519 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: I gotta sing the praises to somebody real quick. Here. 520 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: These people go without name most of the time, and 521 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: unheralded heroes, and who I'm talking about are elected corners. 522 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: They do more in depth investigation than people will ever know. 523 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: They in their own little way, they they grieve for 524 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: these individuals that have no one else to agreeve for them. 525 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: And I know that's very theatrical. I apologize for that. However, 526 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: please hear me right when I say this. They're really 527 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: the only ones that the dead remain fresh in the 528 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: minds of. Okay, all these individuals that are unidentified out there, 529 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: and the person that I really want to sing the 530 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: praises of here is the Hamilton County Corner in Hamilton, Indiana. 531 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: Uh Jeff Jellison. Uh Jeff actually took upon himself the 532 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: mission of getting bodies identified, particularly those that were involved 533 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: in the Fox Hollow case. Now Hamilton is immediately adjacent 534 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: to the Indianapolis area, and he he took it upon 535 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: himself to try to do his best to take these 536 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: again particulated, crushed, burned remains and put a name with him. 537 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: I would love to interview this guy and to and 538 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: to talk to him about what that process was like, 539 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: particularly going back all these years. What I think that 540 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: one of the things that I always reflect upon, particularly 541 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: relative to my career, is that, yeah, I had. I 542 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: had cases involving lots of bodies at one time. But 543 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, as you go forward in time and you're 544 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: still working as a death investigator. Yeah, that at that moment, Tom, 545 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: it was a huge deal when you're out there recovering remains. 546 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: But there are other cases that begin to kind of 547 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: stack on top of even a mass death event where 548 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: the things aren't as fresh. Jeff Jellison actually literally breathed 549 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: life into this case, Dave, where he had recovered these remains, 550 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: His office had recovered these remains, and he was holding 551 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: tight warning to finish, finish the job. Let me just 552 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: remind everybody, because I've done a whole seg I've done 553 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: a whole episode on the corners before. Our primary goal 554 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: as medical egal death investigators is not to solve homicides. 555 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: That's not what we do. That is the job of 556 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: the police. Now. If we provide information to them and 557 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: it helps God bless go in peace, I hope that 558 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: it does help our main job. And you have to 559 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: know what your job is in order to do it right. 560 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: Our main job in the medical legal field is to 561 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: determine the cause of death, the manner of death, and 562 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: the third leg to the stool is identification of the dead. 563 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: That's it. That's what we do. And kind of a 564 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: subset of the identification of the dead is to try 565 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: to find the family. Try to find the family. In 566 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: this particular case involving this poor young man who apparently 567 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: died at the hands of ballmeister Dave, his parents were 568 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: dead and all of his siblings were dead. There was 569 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: nothing left. But there was one thing that happened. His 570 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: mother actually died of a drug od and I've never 571 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: talked about this on air. At the time of her death, 572 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: when she died, they took a blood card on her. 573 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,919 Speaker 1: And that's something we don't talk about much. That people 574 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: don't want. Is that more. There is a particular type 575 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: of little card. If you'll envision the size of a 576 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: business card. Every you know, everybody's ever worked in where 577 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: you had business cards, it's the size of a business card. 578 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: And you syringe up blood from the victim and you 579 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,959 Speaker 1: take and you put one little droplet of blood. There's 580 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: two separate boxes, one in one box and one or 581 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: the other and you retain it, you store it appropriately, 582 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: and you retain it. And guess what, Dave that blood 583 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: that they took it that autopsy ultimately led to the 584 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 1: identification of the young man. And you know one other thing, 585 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: Coral his daughter. The police didn't even know he had 586 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: a daughter, because that would have obviously have been the 587 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: person you would have gone to. It actually took the 588 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: blood of his deceased mother in order to aid in 589 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: getting this young man's body identified. 590 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: So they didn't know that because they don't know who 591 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: they have, they don't know anything. There's nothing to go on. 592 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: You mentioned something at the very start, you know, about 593 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 2: an offhanded comment about from Kral about now maybe you 594 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 2: know there's this serial killer over here, and maybe you know, 595 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 2: maybe there's something to it. All I'm thinking, and I 596 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 2: mentioned this to you earlier, was when we talk about Authorman, 597 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: what they're doing in helping families. This is like, to me, 598 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 2: it's the textbook. I didn't even know what you're talking 599 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 2: about when you said they got a card on her, 600 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 2: you know, on his mom. I didn't know what was 601 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 2: going on with any of that. All I knew is 602 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,839 Speaker 2: that there was a young woman who didn't know where 603 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 2: her dad was, didn't think he was dead, but didn't know. 604 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: She had no idea if he was right around the 605 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: corner or if he had been killed because his death. 606 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 2: First of all, the guy was twenty years old. He 607 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 2: was a young man. His baby is two years old 608 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 2: when he's told to go home pretty much, and that's it. 609 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,959 Speaker 2: She has no relationship with him. And in her whole 610 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: adult life, growing up, trying to figure out life. It's 611 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 2: tough enough, but when you've got that big question mark 612 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 2: in the back of your head, you look for answers. 613 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. In addition to Daniel Holleran, mister Jellison got another 614 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: young man identified Alan Livingstone, who's twenty seven when he 615 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: went missing an August of ninety three. He got him identified. 616 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: And not only that, he also reconfirmed through DNA matches. 617 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: And this is jealoson. Two of the eight original victims 618 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: that had been identified back in the nineteen nineties, he 619 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: was able to reconfirm their identity. Because you know you're 620 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: dealing with just to imagine what a nightmare this is. 621 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: I've already told you of my disdain for jigsaw puzzles. 622 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: It's not something I have the patience for. Okay, imagine 623 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: the ultimate jigsaw puzzle. You've got thousands of commingle fragmented 624 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: remains that are in various states of decay, many of 625 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: them burned, and you just look at this mess that 626 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: you have before you, and you know, for all you know, 627 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: this animal is out there killing people and then stirring 628 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: the remains together, mixing them all up. And it is 629 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: such a hodgepodge to be able to do this, to 630 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: try to put a name with these fragmented remains, and 631 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: ultimately that is in fact what had happened in the 632 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: case of Daniel and these other cases, and they're still 633 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: I think to date. If I'm not mistaken, somebody make 634 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: sure you go back and check me on this. But 635 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: I think there's still three that they're looking to get 636 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: identified at this point. And that brings me to this. 637 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: Our friends at Authoram try to move heaven and hell 638 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: with limited resources. They do things that fifty years ago 639 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: this would have seemed like it was an episode of 640 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: Star Trek. It is so amazing what they have literally 641 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 1: been able to do and almost breathe the breath of 642 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: life into these old, old cases where families just didn't know. 643 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: And that leads me to what I always say about 644 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: Authoram is it might be the most noble work that 645 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: is going on at that point in time. There are 646 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of unidentified persons that are out there. 647 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 1: They're not all homicides, but yet at some point in time, 648 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: some person out there held them right after they were 649 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: born and they were somebody's baby, and since that time 650 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: they died lonely deaths, or were killed or discarded without 651 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,879 Speaker 1: a name. Authorm Labs is giving them a name and 652 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: you can help. All you have to do is go 653 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: to d n A solves dot org. You go to 654 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: dnasols dot org. You look through the list. If it's 655 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,879 Speaker 1: regional to you, if it's in your state, if they 656 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: have cases in your state that are open and need funding. 657 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: Just a few bucks thrown their way could make the difference, 658 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: could make the difference to give families the answer for 659 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: the empty chair that they've always had at Thanksgiving. Just 660 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: do it. Just go check it out, pick out a 661 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: case that you want to support, throw your support behind, 662 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: give them whatever you have, whatever you're capable of giving, 663 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:35,800 Speaker 1: and you could be the reason that someone finally has answers. 664 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: Tip of the cap to our friends at authorm Labs 665 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:48,760 Speaker 1: in the Woodlands, Texas, but also special recognition to corner 666 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: Jeff Jellison for his continued efforts and to try to 667 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: bring answers to these families that have no idea that 668 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: maybe their family member was a victim of Herb Baummeister. 669 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags