1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan, Miami, Florida is probably 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful locations in the country that 3 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: I've personally visited. You know, you know, some people describe 4 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: locations like it as saying that everywhere you look is 5 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: essentially a postcard, you know, that kind of beautiful emerald 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: green water in the pure white sand and palm trees, 7 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: things that we don't normally see in these locations that 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: we live in around the country. And I think when 9 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: we begin to think about you seek a place like 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: that to find peace and happiness, and you try to 11 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: live in that environment as if it is paradise. Life 12 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: gets in the way, he doesn't You begin to suddenly 13 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: realize that within paradise it can completely turned into a 14 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: horror show. Today we're gonna talk about an only fans 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: model and her boyfriend who wound up in the middle 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: of a blood bath. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 17 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: is Body Backs. Jackie Howard, executive producer with Crime Stories 18 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I gotta tell you, every time I've ever 19 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: been to Miami, I've I've often thought, you know, what 20 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: in the world do you have to do? What kind 21 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: of what kind of money do you have to make 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: to live in a place like this. It's absolutely gorgeous. 23 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: You've got, you know, the salt air, You've got the 24 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: beautiful beach and go walk up and down. It's exotic. 25 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: It looks like you're in the middle of the Caribbean, 26 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: and I guess some out of the way you are. 27 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: But with Courtney Clinny and her boyfriend, it was anything 28 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: but perfection. It did end up being a nightmare, certainly 29 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: for this couple. Joe Courtney Clinny is an Only Fans 30 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: model and she has two million followers on Instagram, and 31 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: this may have been in part which make for the 32 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: lifestyle that you're talking about. Joe Only Fans is a 33 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: subscriber account, and with two million followers, paying between five 34 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and fifty dollars a month for access to her content 35 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: would certainly make a comfortable lifestyle possible. Courtney Clinny was 36 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: dating Christian ovum Celly. They had been living together for 37 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: a couple of years and inside this apartment that day 38 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: he left to go get Subway to get them some lunch. 39 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: During that time, Clinny made a couple of Instagram posts 40 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: she called her mother but when open Selly came back, 41 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: reportedly an argument ensued. We don't know what, but the 42 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: argument resulted in Courtney Clinny reportedly stabbing Christian opum Selly. 43 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: And we find out later that there had been multiple 44 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: reports of arguments coming from that household. But the biggest 45 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: image that is standing out from this alleged murder is 46 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: a photo of Clinny standing on their balcony in a 47 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: bra covered in blood. For you know, for forensic scientists, 48 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: for a CROMP scene investigator, that's that's absolute gold. Because 49 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: what do we associate most with with death investigation? I 50 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: think that for the average person on the street, other 51 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: than simply a dead body, it's going to be blood 52 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: because it's one of those things when you take a 53 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: look at it, you you think about origin. You know, 54 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: why is there such a huge volume of blood, Why 55 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: do you have it on your person? You know, from 56 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: whence did it come? Because you know, blood is essentially, 57 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: aside from certain medical conditions, is only going to be 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: present as a result of some type of trauma. And look, 59 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: I've seen these images of Clinty uh that were you know, 60 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: put out there, you know by TMZ we're actually quite 61 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: striking and for people that are interested in true crime, 62 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: this is something these are This is a rare bird's 63 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: eye view and it's literally a bird's eye view because 64 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: you can see it from whoever shot this video was 65 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: in an elevated position looking down towards this balcony on 66 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: this you know, on this apartment area. And I want 67 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: to back up just for a second. We were talking about, 68 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, kind of some of the details, and you know, 69 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: people making money. It has been alleged that the apartment 70 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: that they were living in at that time, if I'm 71 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: not mistaken, was roughly in the just hold onto your 72 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: hat for a second, it was roughly in the ten 73 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars per month nut that they had to make 74 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: every month. Just let that sink in just for a second. 75 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: Can you imagine having to come up with ten k 76 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: every month just to put a roof over your head? 77 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for average folks like us, you know, 78 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: that's that's quite a big number. You know, you're up 79 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: in the thin air, so you can only imagine there's 80 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure in this environment to be able 81 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: to generate that kind of dough in order to to 82 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: live essentially, and that that's you know, that's that's just 83 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: to have the roof over your head. That doesn't account 84 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: for everything else that that's involved with this. So this 85 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: is some type of lifestyle you know that they're leading. 86 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: And then when you put it in the context that 87 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: there has been a homicide that has been committed in 88 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: this ten thousand dollar per month rental, all right, and 89 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: you're looking down on it, you get this kind of 90 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: bird's eye view and peek behind the curtains, if you will, 91 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: and you can see her seated there. It looks like 92 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: she might be cuffed, seated on the floor, leaning back 93 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: against the wall, and you can see dogs are a dog, 94 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: I think, kind of walking up toward her and then 95 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: walking away, And even at that distance with a grainy video, 96 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: you can appreciate how much blood it's covering her, So 97 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: it's an odd thing. And you can see the police 98 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: working in there. You can kind of get faint images 99 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: of uniform cops kind of moving about and her kind 100 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: of staring down, and you know, for a moment, you know, 101 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: you kind of detach yourself from the forensics of it, 102 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: and you begin to think, you know, what the world's 103 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: going through her mind at that moment. Tom police came 104 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: to the scene because of a one one call, and 105 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: in that one call you can hear in the background 106 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Courtney Clinny saying I'm sorry, baby, I'm sorry. That would 107 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: stand a reason that she is the person who did this. 108 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: Then we find her covered with blood, so at that 109 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: point we would have to make a big assumption that 110 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: she was the perpetrator, Yet she was not arrested for 111 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: murder at that time. I've often had cases where, you know, 112 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: you have individuals that are found at a scene that 113 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: are encrusted with blood, and this is kind of a 114 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: very interesting point from a forensic standpoint versus your individual humanity, 115 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: because you know, when you roll up on a scene 116 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: as an investigator, first off, you don't know what in 117 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: the world has happened. You didn't witness it, even summoned 118 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: to the scene as an investigator, and here you have 119 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: this horrific environment, and I think at a primal level, 120 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: the first thing you want to try to do is 121 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: kind of push it out of your mind. You see 122 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: people that are impacted by the same perhaps they are 123 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: blood soaked, and you know your human side, you want 124 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: to say, here, let me get your one towel, Let 125 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: me get you some baby wipes or whatever it is 126 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: that you're carrying in your kit, and you know, clean 127 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: yourself up. But you have to fight that urge in 128 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: this environment and you say, well, Morgan, why would you 129 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: want to do that? Well, her Courtney Clinty, at this 130 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: moment in time, she is that point of contact where 131 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: you know that she's going to have evidence that she 132 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: can give you verbally okay, as to what happened, because 133 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: that's gonna be one of the biggest questions you're gonna 134 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna want to have an answer for. But also 135 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: there's another bigger tell here, and that's the physical evidence 136 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: is contained on her body. You know, for every blood 137 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: stain that she has on her person, there is a 138 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: tale to be told relative to that point of contact. 139 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: Whether it is say, for instance, you find your lover 140 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: bleeding and you're trying to stem the flow of blood. 141 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: You're trying to soothe them, so you draw them into you. 142 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: And also you have to begin to think, well, they're 143 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: there and they might be responsible for this, and the maybe, 144 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: for instance, you've got an arterial spray pattern that's very fine, 145 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: it's very distinct, that has rested on the clothing. You 146 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: need to keep that in pristine condition. One of the 147 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: problems that happens many times in cases like this. First off, 148 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: police do not keep an eye sometimes on a suspect 149 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: because everybody's a suspect at this moment time, and they 150 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,479 Speaker 1: allow them to go into another location, into a bathroom 151 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: to wash their face, wash their hands, you know, just 152 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: to change clothes maybe and not appropriately collect the clothing 153 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: or you any opportunity that the individual might have to 154 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, take away these garments are adjust their appearance 155 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: from its pristine condition. That that is that that condition 156 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: they are in when you initially observe them can compromise 157 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: the entire narrative that the evidence is trying to portray, 158 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, for for what had actually happened. So when 159 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: you see her seated on the floor there back to 160 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: that image, that is a big tell. First off, you 161 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: know that the police are not allowing her to clean 162 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: herself up. So what do you do with her at 163 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: that point in time, Well, the best thing you can 164 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: do is is photograph. You stograph, photograph, photograph, and as 165 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: distasteful as it is, and it is, you don't allow 166 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: her to wash her hands. You don't allow her to 167 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: clean her face, you don't allow her to wipe her 168 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: neck off, and you certainly don't allow her to change clothing. 169 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: Because in a case like this, that information is going 170 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: to be a treasure trove moving forward as we begin 171 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: to interpret what actually happened in that apartment. On that call, 172 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: you could also hear of him Sally saying that he 173 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: was losing feeling in his arm and that he was dying. 174 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: And that's when you hear Clenny say, I'm so sorry baby. 175 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: So when the police arrived, you were talking about this 176 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: arterial spray Joe and we suspect that there was allegedly 177 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a fight between the two and that's what resulted in 178 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: his death. So what would the police have seen? She 179 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: was covered in blood, but with the apartment have also 180 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: been covered in blood. When the police, you know, make 181 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: this initial entry into this environment, they will see copious 182 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: and I'll you know, that's that's a term that pathologists 183 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: love to use, which just means a lot, okay, copious 184 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: amount of blood that will probably be pulled in certain locations. 185 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: Go back to what open Celia actually said or could 186 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: be heard saying, I can't I can't feel anything. You know, 187 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: I'm losing the feeling in my extremities. And this is 188 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: something that is encountered with blood loss as a matter 189 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: of fact. That's that's he's probably becoming, once referred to 190 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: as shocky. At that moment in time, he's going into shock. 191 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: His pallor will change, that is his complexion. It'll look 192 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: kind of washed out. It doesn't have the vibrance that 193 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: he would have had, you know, in a healthy state. 194 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: He'll become delirious in this sort of thing, and he's 195 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: not gonna be moving around a lot. So where he 196 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: finally comes to rest is going to be kind of 197 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: the end game as far as he is concerned. However, 198 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: in an initial attack, let's say he was seated on 199 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: a sofa. When his body is first breached with an instrument, 200 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: like a sharp instrument, there will if that weapon is withdrawn, 201 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: you will see a tremendous amount of blood that will 202 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: initially kind of come out of the body at that 203 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: point in time. And his response to this, it's kind 204 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: of a primal response. You know, you you feel the 205 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: sharpness of the pain as an instrument penetrate your body, 206 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: and you reach up to kind of assess it. Yourself. 207 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: Blood transfers to your hands. You may clutch your chest, 208 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: you may try to brace yourself, you may try to 209 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: reach forward, and if there's an attack or you're gonna 210 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: grab them, So you're actually transferring your own blood to 211 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: the individual that has struck a blow against you. Then 212 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: you know your your instinct tells you to get away 213 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: from that initial contact, from that point in which you 214 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: were attacked or you perceive yourself to be attacked. And 215 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: as that happens, your body is twisting, turning this sort 216 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: of thing. And if the object, for instance, a knife, 217 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: it's not still in place and it's been removed from 218 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: that location, you will have blood that is either slowly 219 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: coming out of the body or spurting. Okay, And I 220 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: think that in this case, you know, sustained an arterial 221 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: breach at that moment time. Now, some of that blood 222 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: is going to remain within the bod body, but a 223 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: goodly portion of that is going to begin to come 224 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: through that defect. And in this case, I believe that 225 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: it is a sharp force injury, so it'll be a 226 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: knife a knife injury. And if folks at home will 227 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: think about the way an eye, human eye looks when 228 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: it's closed many times. If you've never actually seen a 229 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: stab wound in person, if you will close one of 230 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: your eyes and stare in a mirror and look at 231 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: kind of how you're upper lid and your lower lid 232 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: form this kind of slit like appearance. That's what multiple 233 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: stab wounds are. Even singular stab wounds look like. It'll 234 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: come to a very pronounced point on one end, almost 235 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: like a closed eye, particularly if it is a single 236 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: edged weapon, and so you can have quite a bit 237 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: of blood coming forth from that injury. If an artery 238 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: is struck, and so every time the heart beats, essentially okay, 239 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: you will have forced blood out of that defect. And 240 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: that's that's what in the world of forensic pathology these 241 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: are referred to as it will be probably a linear defect, 242 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: meaning line the blood will kind of spurt out. It 243 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: will come out in a spray, because that's the way 244 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: it's coursing through your body at that moment time. Remember, 245 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: he is not dead, okay, hearts still pumping, he's still breathing, 246 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: so it's being forced out, and as it's being forced out, 247 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: it's almost like the spray of a water hose. Okay, 248 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: it's not really greatly directed. It's not targeted, say like 249 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: a bullet coming out of a gun. It's kind of 250 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: sprayed indiscriminately, and you'll see these patterns that have almost 251 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: a histamine like appearance to that to it. Many times 252 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: it's a as it's spraying out like the end of 253 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: a water hose, and it's contacting multiple surfaces over a 254 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: broad ranging area. And you can kind of track these 255 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: or trail them depended upon the movement of the body. 256 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: And as of course more blood is lost, there will 257 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: be a less of volumeable blood that's coming from this injury. 258 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: You know, remember he said I couldn't you know, I 259 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: can't fill my arms. And as a shock begins to 260 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: set in those areas where he has moved about as 261 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: a result of this injury will come to a terminus. 262 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: It'll end right there where he finally dies or goes 263 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: into a kind of a static position on the floor 264 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: where he can no longer move. He would get very 265 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: very sleepy, drowsy, that sort of thing. As blood, you know, 266 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: has begun to leach out of his body, he's not 267 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: getting sufficient oxygenation to his brain. Now what comes into 268 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: play at this moment time is what efforts did Clinny make. 269 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: Did she attempt to resuscitate him? And if she did, 270 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: then that would mean that Envision her hands in the 271 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: center of somebody's chest as you're doing chess compressions and 272 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: you're immediately adjacent to this insult in the chest, this 273 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: open wound. And every time think about this, every compression 274 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: that you make, that is, every time you press now 275 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: on the chest, a little bit of blood is gonna 276 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: leach out, okay, and as that happens, it's going to 277 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: transfer to your hands. Okay, I gotta stop you for 278 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: a second. I want to understand something you just said. 279 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: You said blood is going to leach out. When you 280 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: use that term, and I've heard you use it often, 281 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: do you mean a little trickle? Do you mean a spurt? 282 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: Give me a mental image to think about when you 283 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: say blood is gonna leach out, well, when it it 284 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: leaches out. Many times, you know, people will associate leaching 285 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: with kind of oozing. Okay, But when I'm saying leaching out, 286 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: particularly when you're talking about chess compressions on somebody that 287 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: has an insult, it's not going to spray as as 288 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: much as say an artier. Real spray where the heart 289 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: is still pumping it, but you're pressing it out. It's 290 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: a bit more sluggish, and it will still transfer that 291 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: blood that is still caught up in those vessels in 292 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: that area where where he has been injured. That blood 293 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: will still come out. You're forcing it. Remember every compression 294 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: that you generate, you're an You're an external pump. If 295 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: you're the one a ministering CPR, you're an external pump 296 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: now and you're pumping that remainder, that residual blood out 297 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: of the body, and it transfers onto your hands and 298 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: essentially it leaches onto your hands and everybody can understand, 299 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the tackiness of blood. You can't 300 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: get it off of you. Blood is not a stand alone, 301 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: one off substance. It's a it's a it's a substance 302 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: that is has multiple components to it. As a matter 303 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: of fact, if it doesn't continue to circulate, if it 304 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: just sits on the floor, instance, after a period of time. 305 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: What's really fascinating. One of the things that we look 306 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: at in depth investigation is you will actually see and 307 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: this is kind of cool, you'll actually see the red 308 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: blood cells and you can visually see this, you can 309 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: see the red blood cells begin to separate out from 310 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: the serum. So you'll have over period of time, and 311 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: we really haven't fine tuned this enough to know, you know, 312 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: if we're going to use this. It's like a part 313 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: of assessing post mortal interval, that is the time since death. 314 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: But we do know that over period of time, the 315 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: red blood cells will migrate away from the serum. And 316 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: the serum is clear, you know, it's it's kind of clear, 317 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: it's got kind of a yellow tinge to it, and 318 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: you'll see it begin to kind of migrate away because 319 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: it's no longer mixing, you know, And just think about that, 320 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, as as the body is pumping the blood 321 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: through the body and it's being oxygen eated and it's 322 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: traveling throughout the body, it's essentially mixing and stain mixed 323 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: in that in that state like that, But after it's 324 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: oude of the body, it begins to kind of separate 325 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: out into its individual components at that moment time. So 326 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: with what you're describing right there, Joe, with the blood 327 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: separating and the way that it's going to look outside 328 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: the body, what would it look like on clinting herself 329 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: because the image looks like somebody drinsed her in red paint. 330 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: It really does. It looks like somebody dipped a paint 331 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: brush and a big bucket of plaint paint and just 332 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: kind of randomly, you know, wiped it all across our person. 333 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: And again that's you gotta temper that a little bit 334 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: because I remember, you know, that image that we're looking 335 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: at that moment, Thomas's from above and it looks like 336 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: it's from across the way, so it's that kind of 337 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: a distance, so it's it's hard to appreciate detail. But 338 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: when you're up on her in person, and are when 339 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: they would have been up on her, that is the 340 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 1: authorities in person, you could visibly see the changes in blood. 341 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: It begins to kind of darken as it's contacting the 342 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: various surfaces of her clothing along her face, her hands, 343 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: and the nature of it is changing because it's now 344 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: outside of the body and there is a color change. 345 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: Many times that that image that they took I think 346 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: was probably early on. And if if she were to 347 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: have been allowed to stay, you know, there, and you 348 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: could kind of photograph her over a progression of time, 349 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: you would see that the the color would have changed. 350 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: Blood is always changing, you know, in these scenes and 351 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: on individual persons, and it's it's very fragile too. As 352 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: it begins to dry, it will begin to flake crack. 353 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: First you actually see it cracking the stained area, and 354 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: then it will begin to flake as it's interacting with 355 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: the world outside of the body. So it's a very 356 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: dynamic substance. You have to be swift in your assessment. 357 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: You have to be swift in your documentation. That is 358 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: particularly you want to try to get this person photographed 359 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: as quickly as you can from as many different perspectives 360 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: as you can, demonstrating all surfaces of their person, and 361 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: try to retrieve that clothing and keep it as intact 362 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: as you can because you don't know what's going to 363 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: be on there. I mean, there's any number of things 364 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: that can be on that clothing, chief among them other 365 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: than the blood. You know, you can have hair that 366 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: you would expect to find her hair contained on on 367 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: her clothing. But this poor man, you know, you would 368 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: also potentially find his hair. Now they're in an intimate relationship, 369 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: so you would expect maybe to find trace elements of 370 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: his hair that have sluft off of his body, maybe 371 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: even his skin. But when you find say the blood 372 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: that's there that has kind of encrusted on that clothing, 373 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: and you have hair, his hair caught up in multiple locations, 374 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: you know that there was in that in those little 375 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: dry hair is a blood. You know that there's something 376 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: very dynamic that has gone on. I will continue to 377 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: beat this drum about time. Time for an investigator is 378 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: the most precious asset that we possess, and if you 379 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: can have a documented timeline that marries up with what 380 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: you believe may have happened, it's like finding gold. As 381 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, and in this case, Jackie, I 382 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: think that the police have done a fine job and 383 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of pinning down a rough timeline of these events. 384 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: The timeline that police have laid out in this investigation 385 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: is that Christian om Silly came back into the apartment 386 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: around four three pm. At forty three, Courtney Clinny calls 387 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: her mother and she's on the phone with her mother 388 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: just over six minutes. At four forty nine, Clinny makes 389 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: a second call to her mother and they spoke until 390 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: four fifty six pm. That's a little over seven minutes, 391 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: So that makes it four fifty six pm. At four 392 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: fifty seven pm, Clinny calls one. So given that timeline, Joe, 393 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: what does that tell you about when this assault actually occurred. 394 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: According to the tomline that the police have released in 395 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: this case, we have to think about what was O'm 396 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: silly doing. Well, he had he had left the apartment 397 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: and at and had been gone for for quite some time. 398 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: There was some contact between these two that is cleaning 399 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: and open Sally via a phone, and it was during 400 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: that conversation that apparently he agreed to go and pick 401 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: up food from Subway subway restaurant. He's gonna go grab sandwiches, 402 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: and it's at the moment that he hits the door 403 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: when he returns back into the apartment roughly according to 404 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: the police, at four thirty two pm, there was a 405 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: fight that ensued and and this happened, you know, rather quickly. 406 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: And it's it's curious here that it we don't really 407 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: know according to the police, what sparked us off at 408 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: that moment time, But something occurred relative to his Maybe 409 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: it happened when he was going to get the sandwiches. 410 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: Maybe they had had in that initial phone call before 411 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: he you know, robbed, maybe they have spat um he 412 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: returns back to the apartment. According to the police, they 413 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: have put forth this this narrative that while open Sally 414 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: was out of the apartment, she was taping. Now I 415 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: don't know if this was for her fan accounts or 416 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: if there was some kind of issue, you know, related 417 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: to that, but something sparked us off and it was 418 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: at that moment in time. There's kind of this this 419 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: brief moment in time that you know, roughly according to 420 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: the timeline that the police had laid out, it would 421 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: have happened in an instant. I think that this attack, 422 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: if as the police have laid it out, would have 423 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: would have occurred, perhaps with him being completely unaware what 424 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: was about to have happened. And I think that that's 425 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: that's what have spent so much time, you know, Jackie 426 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: had mentioned earlier they didn't arrest her initially. I think 427 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: that they've spent a lot of time trying to sort 428 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: this out, that that actual brief window of Tom has 429 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: has kind of stumped them to try to get the 430 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: facts straight in this particular story, to try to understand 431 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: what could have kicked this thing off, what would have 432 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: initiated such a violent act having taken place, police saying 433 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: that Plenty told them that she was defending herself. So 434 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: let's look at the actual injuries that of him. Selly 435 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: sustained he was stabbed with a six inch knife. So 436 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: describe for me, Joe where he was stabbed, what body 437 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: parts would have been affected, Why he was not feeling 438 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: his arm any longer? Explain that for me, Joe. When 439 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: when his wound was assessed, it's quite fascinating, I found 440 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: because it's a single it's a single injury. You just 441 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: think about that just for a second. Or and he's 442 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: a big guy. If you've never seen an image of 443 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: these two together, I beg you check it out online. 444 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: He's a big, powerful guy. And I'm not saying she's 445 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: completely diminutive or anything, but there is a size a 446 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: differential here, a significant He's well muscled, big guy. These 447 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: two people are in pretty good physical condition. And it's 448 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: with a single blow that he was essentially struck down. 449 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: The injury that the Miami Dade Medical Examiner's Office was 450 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: able to assess on him, you know, stated that that 451 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: the track of this wound. You had mentioned that this 452 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: is a six inch blade, and the blade itself, he's 453 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: got a sur rated edge on it, which gives you 454 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: an indication this is probably something used, you know, in 455 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: a household, and we generally see serrated edges, you know, 456 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: for state knives. Okay, this thing penetrated according to Miami 457 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: Dade M's office, three inches and you've got a six 458 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: inch blade. I don't I don't know that listeners understand 459 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: how much strength it takes to force the entirety of 460 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: a blade into somebody's body. You're talking about pressing, pressing 461 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: six inches of steel into a humans body where you're 462 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: passing through connective tissue, muscle, perhaps you're nicking bone at 463 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: that point in time, and then any kind of organ 464 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: systems that might be in dwelling beneath there. And that 465 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't even begin to count the vessels, which in 466 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: this case is what we're compromised if if our listeners, 467 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: and we've talked about this on body backs before with 468 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: other cases, and it's amazing how continues to come up, 469 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: and it came up in my career. You know, this 470 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: particular vessel, it's it runs beneath the collar bone. So 471 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: if everybody at home and the initial reports had come 472 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: out and said it was left side, but it turns 473 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: out its right side. It's the collar bone, which is 474 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: referred to as the clavical and you can feel this 475 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: at the base of your neck. It's kind of this 476 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: long tubular bone that is one of the structures that 477 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: holds you know, holds our our head in place, and 478 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: it holds our our shoulders up, this sort of thing, 479 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: and it's antior, which means it's on the front of 480 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: the body. There is a complex of vessels that run 481 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: beneath the the clavical and one in particular that's called 482 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: the subclave, which sub meaning below the subclave artery, our 483 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: subclavicular artery, and in this case opened seally. This knife 484 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: was driven through the subclavicular artery and it wasn't. And 485 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: this is significant. The track of this thing, and we 486 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: track knife wounds in forensics, just like we do bullet wounds. 487 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: They have a path or a track, and the path 488 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: of of this blade passing beneath his his clavical and 489 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: through the subclavi is downward, downward. And that's very important 490 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: to understand why well it is because remember what I 491 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: said just a second ago, that's a big guy. He's 492 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: big man. He's not some tiny little guy. He's a 493 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: big man. And here we have his partner here that 494 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: is significantly shorter than he. So that leads us to 495 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: believe that perhaps, just perhaps he was in an asymmetrical 496 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: position relative to her, where if, if, what the police 497 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: are are opining and they're putting forward, she would have 498 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: had to be in a dom position above above him. 499 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: And this is called a symmetry, which you know, things 500 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: are kind of out of whack. You got one thing 501 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: that's above the other and the other thing below is 502 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: the target area that's being attacked. So the knife would 503 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: have had to have been raised from above and dropped down, Okay, 504 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: dropped down in a single blow. So what would have 505 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: happened is is that the knife itself would have passed 506 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: beneath the collar bone and tracked through this vessel complex. 507 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: Because I'm sure it wasn't just the subclavicular artery that 508 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: got nicked. There were other little associated arteries that probably 509 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,719 Speaker 1: got clipped as well. Our body is is you know, 510 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: there's there's webs of you know, capillary beds and on 511 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: these things you know they're passing through that are supplying 512 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, oxygenated blood and taking away blood that's that 513 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: needs to be replenished with oxygen. And you've got all 514 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: of these little fields of vessels that are being compromised 515 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: as well, But the subclave is certainly the most prominent 516 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: amo these, and it's got a tremendous amount of internal 517 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: pressure that's being placed upon it every time the heart 518 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: pushes out blood. Keep that in mind. So you've clipped this, 519 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: You've clipped this vessel that is supplying blood to that 520 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: particular side of the body. Remember what did he say? 521 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: And he said that, you know, you could hear him 522 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: in the background, I'm I'm getting numb. I'm getting numb. 523 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: You know I can't I can't feel my extremities. Well, no, 524 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: you can't feel your extremities at that point because you're 525 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: no longer receiving blood flow. He would also have felt 526 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: very cold as well, at least his perception. His internal 527 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: thermometer would have been telling him, you know, I'm chilly, 528 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm shivering. You know, that's one of the reasons need 529 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: you wrap people in blankets that are going into shock 530 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So here's the important question 531 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: in this attack. Joe Courtney Clinny reportedly told police that 532 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: she first through the knife and it hit of him. 533 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: Selly that they were having the argument. She was acting 534 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: in self defense because he grabbed her, he choked her 535 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: and threw her to the ground. She ran to the kitchen, 536 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: she grabbed the knife and threw it and hit of him, 537 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: selling Is that possible with what we know now from 538 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 1: the Emmy? I gotta I gotta say this on the side. 539 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: When I first heard this, it took me back to 540 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: a moment when I was a kid and I used 541 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: to love Western movies. One of my favorite Western movies 542 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: of all times a classic, Magnificent Seven, and James Coburn 543 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: was in that movie. And each one of these guys 544 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: have a specialty, and his specialty was throwing knives, and 545 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: it was amazing. You know when you're a kid and 546 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: you see him throw knives and you know he's taking 547 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: down all these bad guys in the movie. And that's 548 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: somebody that is portrayed with a tremendous amount level of 549 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: skill at doing this, and in my estimation at least, 550 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: it would be a one in a million shot. In 551 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: order to do this, first off, you'd have to know 552 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: how to throw the knife, and there is a very 553 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: particular way of throwing a knife, and throwing knives are 554 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: generally throwing knives. There, that's actually a thing throwing knives. Um, 555 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: these knives are balanced in a very particular way, and 556 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: then you can have a balanced throwing knife. But if 557 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: the thrower is not skilled and can target these things, 558 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: you know, you you might as well be throwing pebbles 559 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: at somebody. It would be a one in a million shot. 560 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: So no, I don't I don't see how that is possible. 561 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: And and the fact that you would have to get 562 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: this knife. Remember what the emmy said the m He 563 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: said that you've got three inches of penetration. That's a 564 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,479 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of power going through this very powerful man's chest. 565 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: He appears to be very well muscled, particularly in his 566 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: his pack area, you know, in the muscles of his chest, 567 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: and so you have to pass through that three inches. 568 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,479 Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about getting down into the chest 569 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: cavity at this moment in the time, So that I 570 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: think that that's that's rather fantastical when you begin to 571 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: think about possibility that that could have even have occurred, 572 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: and you know the police would have assessed this, They 573 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: certainly would have gone to the medical examiner and said, 574 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, look, hey, doc, is this physically possible? Can 575 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: this actually occurs? Can you take the knife that we 576 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: have from the scene and can it be thrown and 577 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: generating this kind of injury? And you know, the medical 578 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: examiner apparently has opined that that's that that's just not 579 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: the case. Let me give you a quick word picture 580 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: here an example of something. And it's not the same 581 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: as throwing a knife. But you know all these bars 582 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: that are out here where people are, you know, we're 583 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: throwing tomahawks at at these wooden targets, hatchets, you know 584 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: that they're throwing you know, people drink and they throw 585 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: these things. Watch how those people throw those instruments. And 586 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: just how much power it takes to get one of 587 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: those to stick. And when it sticks, it has to 588 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,919 Speaker 1: catch on a particular edge, a leading edge of this thing, 589 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: and then it doesn't go in really really deep most 590 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: of the time. But you don't have to, you know, 591 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: put your foot on it to try to pry it 592 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: out or anything like that. And how much more so 593 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: with one of these knives. And that's what she is 594 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: putting forth. Another really significant thing here. You know, we 595 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: talked about the assessment of her and the blood evidence 596 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: that was on her person. Well, she's indicating, according to 597 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: the police, that he open sally a agedly attacked her. 598 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: Well what does that mean? Well, first off, it means 599 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: that you've he attacked her that you know, I don't 600 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: think it was a verbal attack, because she actually says 601 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: that he attempted to choke her. Again, I go back, 602 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: this guy is very powerful. Did she tell the police 603 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: officers that initially when they arrived at the scene, because 604 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: if if she did, there's got to be pictures of 605 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: her neck. If he threatened her to the point where 606 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: he put his hands on her neck and began to 607 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:38,359 Speaker 1: squeeze in that early, in those early moments that investigation, 608 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: there would have probably been evidence of that. You would 609 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: have seen a red irritated area around her throat, around 610 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: her neck, and then that would have turned into classically 611 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: what we would call a bruise or a contusion in 612 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: that area where he's squeezing his powerful hands around her neck. 613 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: I'd want to know if the police did that assessment 614 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: and they were able to conclude that, yeah, there was 615 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: an attack here that we saw evidence of that or 616 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: that we didn't see evidence of that, because it's something 617 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: that would stand out like a sore thumb. If events 618 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: happened as Clinic first alleged to police that she was 619 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: protecting herself and that she threw the knife and hit 620 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: him and hit of him, selling, would the blood patterns 621 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: have been different? You know, I'd have to say that 622 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: that there would be if you're talking about throwing the knife. 623 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: First off, I think that the injury itself would appear 624 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: completely different. And this is why you have to assume 625 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: that let's let's think about shooting an arrow. If you're 626 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: shooting an arrow at a target, and that arrow is 627 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 1: going down range, it's staying kind of on a flat plane, 628 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: and they'll be slight deviation, it'll arc and that sort 629 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: of thing, but it's kind of on a plane, like 630 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: an eye eyeline plane, you know, traveling in that direction. 631 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: The injury would present completely different. First off, the track 632 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: itself would not be from above to below, which is 633 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 1: what we have according to the medical examiner in this case, 634 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: it would be from what you would call front to 635 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: back or anterior tracking posterior, going from you know, um 636 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 1: beneath the clavical so that it's headed towards the shoulder blade, 637 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: if you will. That's not what's occurring here as far 638 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: as blood patterns, assuming that she could throw the knife 639 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: and it would have stuck into or compromise the structural 640 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: integrity of that that vessel in there the subclave. I 641 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: don't know that the blood patterns themselves would have been 642 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: any different, but the wound track itself would have been 643 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: markedly different. You would have seen come to something completely 644 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: different than what the medicals and they're saw at autopsy. 645 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: You know, police officers never know what they're walking into, 646 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, and they always say that, you know, domestic 647 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: cases and I agree, I agree, are always the most 648 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: dangerous situations you can walk into. And look, the cops 649 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: are not there seven to see what happens in a 650 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 1: family dynamic, relationship dynamic. They're there after the fact most 651 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: of the time, or they're there when the thing has 652 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: just come to a come politan total head and people 653 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: are screaming and yelling and you've got, you know, things 654 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: being broken, and people are injured and maybe even dead. 655 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: But in this case, you know, you've got to go 656 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: to the neighbors because it's an intimate environment. We're not 657 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: talking about this is a standalone structure. You know where 658 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, you've got a white picket fence around the house. 659 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: Now you're living in an apartment. You're living in an apartment. 660 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: That means you have people above you, below you, to 661 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: the left, to the right, they see you in the hallway, 662 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: and sometimes your best source information are the people that 663 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: inhabit the space around you. Well, in Courtney Clinny's case, 664 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: the people that came forward, we're friends and neighbors who 665 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: reported seeing and hearing a lot of violence coming not 666 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: just from the apartment but throughout the couples to your career. 667 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: And then we have the video of Courtney Clinny a 668 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 1: sulting of Um selling in an elevator. Now keep in 669 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: mind again everyone is innocent until proving guilty. This case 670 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: has not been adjudicated yet. We're discussing the evidence that 671 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: may come forward in a twial. So how is this 672 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: video Joe and witness statements of assault and fights and 673 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: physical attacks going to play into this case. It's a 674 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: treasure trove, I think. Uh. And when this does go 675 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: to trial, you're going to see a succession of not 676 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: just eyewitnesses, but in this particular case, you're gonna have 677 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: ear witnesses. And I think anybody that and among our 678 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: listeners that have ever lived in an apartment, that's the 679 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: biggest drawback, isn't it. You know you hear people, you know, 680 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: you like you got heavy, heavy footed people you know 681 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: that live above you, people that play loud music, people 682 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 1: that bang around in the middle of the night when 683 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: you're trying to you know, catch some sleep. But the 684 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: things that always stand out are those those sounds that 685 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: passed through the wall. And you know, we're sharp enough 686 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: as human beings too to pick up I think even 687 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 1: in stressors and people's voices, you know, the rise and fall, 688 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: the pitch of a voice, and not just that, but 689 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: what's being verbalized, you know, the threats and all of 690 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: that stuff will will come to light, I think, you 691 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: know during the course of this. And then you know this, 692 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: you top all of this off with this imagery which 693 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, you know it was It gave 694 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: me pause. You know, this elevator image that has been 695 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: floating around out there, and you know when you see 696 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: this thing, the capture, the video capture that they have, 697 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, cleaning, you know, first comes into frame and 698 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: it looks like she's you know, dressed in maybe a 699 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: bra or sports bra. I can't really tell on a 700 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: pair of you know, like sleeping pants or something like this. 701 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: And she's it's the elevator itself looks like something out 702 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: of Star Trek, you know, it's a nice, it's like 703 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: high tech kind of thing. And there's this big touch 704 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: pad wall that's brightly lit, and she's frustrated. You can 705 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: see her just like pounding on the board itself, trying 706 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: to get it to respond. And almost immediately, you know, 707 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: o'em selly comes around the corner and walks in and 708 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: he attempts to assist with the board, and it's at 709 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: that moment time you see her strike out at him again. 710 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: You know, you know how I was talking about earlier, 711 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: how you can see kind of a physical difference you know, 712 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: between between o'm silly and cleany. You know, he's he's 713 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 1: a big guy, but you know in that image how 714 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 1: he kind of comes off as like this general Johnt. 715 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how I would react. She's striking, I mean, 716 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: she's she's hitting, and she she grabs his hair, pulls 717 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 1: his head back a little bit. You can see he 718 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of winces, and guess what he does. He puts 719 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: his arm around her and kind of secures her adjacent 720 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: to his body so that she can't strike him. But 721 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: I never see him in that video image raise his 722 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 1: hand to her. I never see him put his hands 723 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: around her throat. I never see him bang her off 724 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: the wall. And so I think that as that is 725 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: being played before the court, I think that it's gonna 726 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: it's gonna really tell a tale, and I think that 727 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: the jury will certainly have enough information to chew on 728 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: in that event. How do you distinguish between this he said, 729 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: she said scenario? You have Courtney Clenny, who has said 730 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: more than once that he was abusive and that he 731 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: assaulted her, and then you have video evidence and his 732 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: friends and hers as well, saying well we saw her 733 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: hitting him. He didn't hit back, but we saw her 734 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: hitting him. How do you weigh that in the testimony? Well, 735 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: you know, and I think that probably counsel and I've 736 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: I've seen this happen in court cases I've covered. They 737 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: famously say, particularly the prosecution, they'll say, you know, you 738 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: can say anything about the dead. You know, they can't 739 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 1: defend themselves at that moment time. And I think from 740 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:45,320 Speaker 1: an interstandpoint, when you hear about putting forth the narrative 741 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: that she had been attacked, one of the questions that 742 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: would be brought up is where's the evidence of attack? 743 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about how is that physically demonstrated over 744 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: this two year period? You Okay, you say you've been attacked, 745 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,399 Speaker 1: you say that you've been assaulted, that you're in fear 746 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,240 Speaker 1: of your life, and all those things that they say, 747 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 1: how is that demonstrated? Has it manifested itself physically over 748 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: that same period of time? And if that is what 749 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: you move forward with, if that's the narrative that you 750 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,880 Speaker 1: put forward, you know, from the perspective of the defense, 751 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: defense is going to have to you know, put that 752 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: out there. They're going to have to demonstrate that, you know, 753 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: on this day she went to the clinic. And look, 754 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,359 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something that we do in forensics 755 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: all the time, you know, particularly when we think about 756 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,320 Speaker 1: abuse cases, and my mind always drifts drifts back because 757 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: they're the most defenseless among us, are our young children, 758 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, and that's when we have child fatalities for instance. 759 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: You know, we will go back historically and look at 760 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 1: the course of treatment that this child may have had. 761 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: You know, they went to multiple medical facilities that were 762 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: treated for this and that you know pictures or you know, contusions, concussions, 763 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: split heads, you know where you've got these big lacerations 764 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 1: where they had to be sewn up, and you know 765 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: that's that kind of gives you these investigated bread crumbs 766 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,879 Speaker 1: along the way. So you you know, again we're not there, 767 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, as investigators when these things happen, we have 768 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,720 Speaker 1: to go back after the fact and piece it together. 769 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: And if if you don't have that, and I think 770 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: that that's that's what makes this a difficult sell. Again, 771 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,360 Speaker 1: Courtney Clenny is accused of stabbing her boyfriend Christian obum 772 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: Selling and she is charged with murder in the second 773 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: degree with the deadly weapon. Again, she has not been convicted. 774 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So now this is 775 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:54,760 Speaker 1: up to a jury. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 776 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: is body Backs