Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress Whipsmarty's.
Speaker 1: Today we are joined by a member of the Work
Speaker 1: in Progress family who is here for a follow up
Speaker 1: and I could not be more thrilled. Today's guest is
Speaker 1: none other than Katie Kuric. You know her as a
Speaker 1: legendary American journalist and presenter, the founder of Katie Kurrek Media,
Speaker 1: and the publisher of Wake Up Call, an amazing newsletter
Speaker 1: which if you're not subscribed to, you need to be.
Speaker 1: And as if that wasn't enough, she's also the host
Speaker 1: of Next Question with Katie Kuric. She happens to be
Speaker 1: one of my favorite journalistic brains, one of my favorite
Speaker 1: women to talk to about the complexities of modern life,
Speaker 1: and one of the most inspiring people I know because
Speaker 1: she's always so curious about everyone she meets, whether that's
Speaker 1: someone she agrees with or someone she might even passionately
Speaker 1: disagree with. Katie is such an advocate for holding dialectics,
Speaker 1: the fact that many things can be true at the
Speaker 1: same time, and figuring out how we can all meet
Speaker 1: and care about each other in the middle. Today, she's
Speaker 1: here to give us a little preview on season nine
Speaker 1: of her podcast, on which she dives into a variety
Speaker 1: of topics with some of the world's most interesting and
Speaker 1: influential people to explore the big ideas that are percolating
Speaker 1: in the zeitgeist, but focusing on slowing down, diving deep,
Speaker 1: and connecting with each other. Her show really, for me,
Speaker 1: feels like a reprieve from a culture that is obsessed
Speaker 1: to with quick hot takes and surface levels small talk.
Speaker 1: She is helping me and all of you and all
Speaker 1: of her listeners take a breath, be together and figure
Speaker 1: out what comes next. Let's hear from Katie.
Speaker 2: How are you, Sophia.
Speaker 1: I'm great. How are you.
Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good. Busy, Yes, I'm sure you are.
Speaker 3: Everybody's so busy, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that. I was
Speaker 1: talking to my therapist about this this morning, and he
Speaker 1: was saying that, you know, first it was computers, and
Speaker 1: then it was smartphones, and then COVID, and each of
Speaker 1: these kind of world changing either advances in technology or events,
Speaker 1: has further deteriorated the line between personal and professional time.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, we're all just sort of in this
Speaker 1: swirl where we're supposed to be on and working and
Speaker 1: reachable and responding every second of every day. And we
Speaker 1: were just sort of talking about the mental health implications
Speaker 1: of that about an hour and a half ago.
Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, well yeah, I've been fascinated by that.
Speaker 3: And how busy. You know, busy has become kind of
Speaker 3: a weird badge of honor too. Yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 3: almost like a humble brag, or not really a humble brag,
Speaker 3: just a brag. And yeah, and I also think like
Speaker 3: work has changed. I used to think, you know, I
Speaker 3: used to go to the Today Show, do the show,
Speaker 3: figure out what I was doing tomorrow, maybe do a
Speaker 3: couple of extra interviews, and go home. But now I
Speaker 3: feel like we feel so scattered because we're doing things
Speaker 3: for different venues and different platforms and different things. So
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel as much of you know, going getting up,
Speaker 3: doing a task, focusing on that task. You kind of
Speaker 3: feel like it's you're all over the place because you
Speaker 3: are right.
Speaker 1: And in a way to your point, we all used
Speaker 1: to have a job and then maybe do some support
Speaker 1: work for the job, but now you're expected to have
Speaker 1: your day job, whether that's you know, on a TV
Speaker 1: series or you know, a network show like you're referring to,
Speaker 1: and then you're meant to be a content studio, and
Speaker 1: then you're meant to have a social media presence, but
Speaker 1: it can't just be professional because then you're cold. So
Speaker 1: you're also supposed to produce content about your life, right,
Speaker 1: And you're supposed to have time to have a life
Speaker 1: without always having your phone out, but you're expected to
Speaker 1: always be reachable because now your life is for business,
Speaker 1: verticals and likely multi city and it's like we're all
Speaker 1: kind of essentially expected to be a full crew under
Speaker 1: one little human umbrella. And it's very.
Speaker 3: Strange, right, and very taxing. And you know, I think
Speaker 3: I think what you and your therapist were talking about
Speaker 3: is right your I think life used to have a
Speaker 3: certain rhythm and now that rhythm has been disrupted by,
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, twenty four to seven availability, and you know,
Speaker 3: this need or perceived need to have to share everything
Speaker 3: and post everything and be this insatiable beast that is
Speaker 3: social media or various forms of media.
Speaker 2: So yes, it's a lot.
Speaker 3: It's a lot, and I don't think people it's almost
Speaker 3: like a frog in slowly boiling water. I don't think
Speaker 3: people have appreciated how significantly things have changed, and how
Speaker 3: our pace of life has undergone this massive transformation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what an amazing jumping off plant with you, Katie,
Speaker 1: because part of what I wanted to ask you about
Speaker 1: today was how you managed to do it all. And
Speaker 1: it is really interesting, you know that we find ourselves here.
Speaker 1: I mean, longtime listeners of the podcast will be so
Speaker 1: happy to have you back. Newer listeners of the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm joined again today by the iconic Katie Kuric, who
Speaker 1: is every bit as inspiring and brilliant as you would assume,
Speaker 1: and happens to be one of those people who, every
Speaker 1: time I see her in a room, opens her arms
Speaker 1: for me to leap into them, and you will text
Speaker 1: me to check in and see how things are going.
Speaker 1: And you really manage to seem, I think, to many
Speaker 1: of your friends and admirers, like someone who has figured
Speaker 1: out how to do it all, how to spin all
Speaker 1: of these plates. And it's so interesting that both on
Speaker 1: a personal and societal level, you are also reflecting on
Speaker 1: the impact of all of this. I suppose maybe we're
Speaker 1: all reflecting on it because we're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what this next sort of wave of life and society
Speaker 1: look like, how how when you look at these seismic
Speaker 1: shifts and what they cost, how do you also try
Speaker 1: to keep the hope alive by considering what these shifts
Speaker 1: have also offered to us? You know, how do you
Speaker 1: look at kind of both sides of the coin.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'm on a personal level, I'm really thankful.
Speaker 3: As much as social media has been damaging on a
Speaker 3: lot of lever levels, and we can talk about that
Speaker 3: in a moment, but I'm thankful for disintermediation because it
Speaker 3: has enabled me to continue what doing what I love
Speaker 3: to do. You know, it's it's democratized and opened up
Speaker 3: these avenues for people. I was thinking about this today.
Speaker 3: You know, in some ways it's made it harder because
Speaker 3: of the proliferation of all kinds of content. And you know,
Speaker 3: when there are gatekeepers and fewer outlets, it was harder
Speaker 3: to get to gain entry. But now with so much
Speaker 3: out there, it's harder to be heard because there's so
Speaker 3: much competition for our attention. But just on a personal level, Sophia,
Speaker 3: I'm glad that you know, when I left I went
Speaker 3: to NBC obviously for the Today Show, and then CBS
Speaker 3: Evening News and then I went to Yahoo to kind
Speaker 3: of understand this digital landscape better. You know, I think
Speaker 3: I am very grateful that I can have a voice
Speaker 3: but not work for a big network news organization. So selfishly,
Speaker 3: I'm really happy that that that there are avenues for
Speaker 3: me to communicate with people, to hopefully enlighten them or
Speaker 3: illuminate a complicated topic, or share something that I think
Speaker 3: is useful or even just fun and you know, slightly
Speaker 3: entertaining or and so I feel very lucky.
Speaker 2: You know. I think if I.
Speaker 3: Was forced out of the business or you know, consider
Speaker 3: too old or whatever it would be that would not
Speaker 3: allow me to be on a more traditional media platform, I.
Speaker 2: Would be really sad.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I would find something else, some
Speaker 3: other way I hope to be useful in the world.
Speaker 3: But the fact that I can continue doing what I
Speaker 3: love to do through a podcast, you know, talk to
Speaker 3: interesting people like you or Renee Fleming about how music
Speaker 3: impacts your brain, or Jim Vanda High on his really
Speaker 3: smart book about how to be a better employer and
Speaker 3: an employee. You know, I'm insatiably curious, and I'm just
Speaker 3: so grateful that I have an outlet for that. Still yes,
Speaker 3: so that's that's the positive. And gosh, I don't know,
Speaker 3: that was a great, big honking question you asked me, Sophia.
Speaker 2: What was the other part.
Speaker 1: I just really jumped in off the high dive. Well
Speaker 1: that was it, you know, because I think sometimes especially
Speaker 1: women like us who are so curious and who love
Speaker 1: fact finding and we love to understand how these things
Speaker 1: fit into the greater puzzle of society, life around.
Speaker 2: And learn, I think we love to learn too.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I really think that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that always inspired me as a fan. And then when
Speaker 1: we became friendly and you know, I got to call
Speaker 1: you a friend, I was like, oh my god, that's it.
Speaker 1: It's curiosity. But sometimes I think curiosity can lead to
Speaker 1: a bit of overwhelm because you do learn all the
Speaker 1: big scary facts. You read all that data. You understand
Speaker 1: that people are struggling, or that these things are having
Speaker 1: negative impacts on teenagers, or you know, all the stuff
Speaker 1: we all read about, and so I just also love
Speaker 1: to know what as such a brilliant woman who is
Speaker 1: so informed keeps you hopeful, and you know, it's not
Speaker 1: lost on me as you talk about these avenues opening
Speaker 1: up and you mentioned gatekeeping. So many of these upper echelons,
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, news, media, reporting business, they've held
Speaker 1: women out for so long. And I remember from the
Speaker 1: first time you came on the show, you talking about
Speaker 1: how watching Mary Tyler Moore really inspired you to want
Speaker 1: to be in the news. And I really get a
Speaker 1: kick out of that because same nick at night re
Speaker 1: runs are my favorite thing to watch with my parents,
Speaker 1: And I think about what Mary Tyler Moore would think
Speaker 1: if she could see how for all of its faults
Speaker 1: these the democratization of voice and platform has particularly allowed
Speaker 1: so many women to flourish. It's a really incredible thing.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I think also, you know, more traditional forms of media
Speaker 3: have recognized that the people who are talking about issues
Speaker 3: or delivering the news need to look more like the
Speaker 3: people who are watching it. And I think as demographics
Speaker 3: have changed, as you know, there's going to be a
Speaker 3: majority minority population in this country by twenty forty four,
Speaker 3: but as the country's gotten more diverse and as women
Speaker 3: have made strides, I think they have recognized that these
Speaker 3: platforms are not the purview of just singularly white men.
Speaker 3: And I'm very heartened when I not only look at
Speaker 3: all these platforms where gosh, I'm amazed at how talented
Speaker 3: people are. By the way, Sophia, this is just a
Speaker 3: little quick sidebar. I'm just amazed at the people I
Speaker 3: see were incredible artists or they can make clothes or
Speaker 3: they I mean, they're so much talent out there. I'm
Speaker 3: so thrilled that people have this outlet for expression. I
Speaker 3: think they always did, but now they're able to share
Speaker 3: their passion with so many people. I'm like, wow, look
Speaker 3: at what this person did. Look a look at this
Speaker 3: cake that this person decorated. Nava, you know, Frosted by
Speaker 3: Nava is one of my favorite follows. She's i'sak Perlman's
Speaker 3: daughter and she was I think a pianist or violinist,
Speaker 3: I can't remember, but she just decorates cake full time
Speaker 3: and she is an incredible artist and the creations are
Speaker 3: just beautiful. So anyway, that's my little sidebar. But I
Speaker 3: do feel like like voices that weren't heard, you know, Gosh,
Speaker 3: I just I think you not only as I said,
Speaker 3: look at these platforms. You look at news outlets and
Speaker 3: cable networks, and goodness, it's so much more diverse. And
Speaker 3: I think that we've come a long way since I
Speaker 3: got into the business in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely right.
Speaker 3: I mean I look back sometimes I look at old
Speaker 3: photos when I was at the Today Show and I'm
Speaker 3: the only woman, yeah, you know, in the whole group.
Speaker 3: And now you look at the Today Show and it's
Speaker 3: just chok, a block full of women. And so I
Speaker 3: think so much has changed, and I think it's a
Speaker 3: good thing. And by the way, I like diversity of
Speaker 3: all kinds. You know, I like to have male energy there,
Speaker 3: I like to have female energy. I like to have
Speaker 3: people from different backgrounds. I think sometimes we don't appreciate
Speaker 3: so economic diversity enough. You know, people who grew up
Speaker 3: in certain circumstances and understand how people are struggling, or
Speaker 3: appreciate certain things that other people may not. Or people
Speaker 3: come from rural environments, and you know, I think that's
Speaker 3: really important too. So I'm very gratified when I look
Speaker 3: at how things have changed.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute after a few
Speaker 1: words from our favorite sponsors. I even think about, you know,
Speaker 1: a as a younger woman watching you know so many
Speaker 1: of you, that really example set for me, you know,
Speaker 1: knowing I wanted to study theater, but for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: deciding to pursue my desire to study journalism at the
Speaker 1: same time. I'm in college. You know, I looked up
Speaker 1: to women like you and Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters.
Speaker 1: You know, there were there were these people I could
Speaker 1: look at. You know, even in elementary school, I begged
Speaker 1: my mom to pick me up fifteen minutes before the
Speaker 1: bell so I could make it in time, so I
Speaker 1: could make it home in time for Oprah to start.
Speaker 1: You know, like you just great. You all set these
Speaker 1: incredible examples for me. And then I think about in
Speaker 1: my own career. You know, in the early days, bosses
Speaker 1: that really wanted to pit the women against each other,
Speaker 1: and they didn't want us to be friends. They didn't
Speaker 1: want us to like band together to make demands. And
Speaker 1: I think about that even you know, back in the day,
Speaker 1: I remember hearing the you know, whisperings, rumblings whatever that
Speaker 1: you know, Katie Kurk and Diane Sawyer have a rivalry,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you did that or was that just
Speaker 1: the media not understanding that there were two of you?
Speaker 2: No, you know, I've been.
Speaker 1: Thinking of silly.
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this a lot because you know,
Speaker 3: they're doing a documentary about Barbara Walters. Yes, and I
Speaker 3: was talking to the director of the documentary. I think
Speaker 3: this is so interesting because you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: industries are competitive, and it's okay to be competitive, Like
Speaker 3: I applaud Barbara and Diane and me and Connie Chung
Speaker 3: and Peter Jenny's and Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw and
Speaker 3: all these people who are sort of my generation. They're
Speaker 3: a little teeny bit older than I am. But you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of you know, if you're a journalist, it
Speaker 3: is competitive. You know, you want to break the story,
Speaker 3: you want to get the big interview.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: And somehow there's a double standard because the men are
Speaker 3: very competitive too. But somehow, now when you put women
Speaker 3: in competitive situations, it's called, you know, a cat fight.
Speaker 3: There is no commensurate term for men or competitive. And
Speaker 3: believe you me, Sophia, they are extremely intensely competitive. Yes,
Speaker 3: so I find it interesting and I don't think, you know,
Speaker 3: it's just I struggle with this and I'm still obviously
Speaker 3: trying to figure it out. But how can you be
Speaker 3: competitive and supportive at the same time. It's sometimes difficult,
Speaker 3: and I don't think we ever have conversations about that
Speaker 3: women have the added burden of being competitive, trying to
Speaker 3: get ahead in their own business, but also supporting other
Speaker 3: people other women. Now, I sometimes wonder do men have
Speaker 3: that added burden being competitive, and yet they're supposed to
Speaker 3: support all the people they're competing against. It's somewhat confusing
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: I love that you're talking about this, and I think
Speaker 1: a perfect framing. Honestly, I just did an interview about
Speaker 1: this yesterday. You know, as one of the owners of
Speaker 1: Angel City, I talk a lot about women's sports, and
Speaker 1: I was talking about this because to your point, you Barbara, Diane,
Speaker 1: Connie Oprah like rare air, top tier women in your field,
Speaker 1: and the men you mentioned, Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw,
Speaker 1: those arenas are all competitive, as you say, but the
Speaker 1: men are able to compete and be professional, ballsy, cutthroat
Speaker 1: even but women get called rivals. And I'm seeing this
Speaker 1: really played out because we are experiencing this gorgeous moment
Speaker 1: where there are so many eyeballs on women's sports. Finally,
Speaker 1: we're all like, welcome to the party, you're late. But
Speaker 1: you see these people who clearly have never watched a
Speaker 1: WNBA game, for example, flipping out that you know, Caitlin
Speaker 1: Clark got checked on the court and they're saying, well,
Speaker 1: they've never these women. They're being vicious, they're jealous of her.
Speaker 1: She got a shoe contract, And I'm like, do you
Speaker 1: all know how much less money these women's contracts that
Speaker 1: are so few and far between are than any of
Speaker 1: the men's. Like, you're focused on the wrong things. We're
Speaker 1: still not quite getting to equity. And what it says
Speaker 1: to me is you didn't look at footage of Stewie's
Speaker 1: early career, or Candice Parker or Lisa Leslie or any
Speaker 1: of the women who paved these roads into the w
Speaker 1: And for some reason, these women that are literally the
Speaker 1: best female athletes in the country, who are out competing
Speaker 1: on courts like gladiators, are essentially being told they're being
Speaker 1: too hard on each other. And it's it's like, they
Speaker 1: literally play physical sport for a living. What are we doing.
Speaker 3: I think it's this deep seated gender, gendered perspective that
Speaker 3: is baked into us from the almost the get go.
Speaker 3: You know, when we start being socialized, when we start
Speaker 3: consuming media, when we start you know, receiving these messages
Speaker 3: and making these connections. There's a professor at Harvard who
Speaker 3: teaches in the at school, Masarin Banagi. I think I
Speaker 3: interviewed her for an hour I did on gender inequality
Speaker 3: in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she was talking about
Speaker 3: how our brains, when they're extremely new and still developing,
Speaker 3: we make these associations, you know, so we associate moms
Speaker 3: with cooking or taking care of the house, and dads
Speaker 3: with working, and now more moms working. But just sort
Speaker 3: of these messages on society and gender roles are are
Speaker 3: are so baked into our almost our every cell of
Speaker 3: our brains that when we see things that seem antithetical
Speaker 3: to that kind of socialization, it freaks people out. And
Speaker 3: so I think seeing women compete in sports is something
Speaker 3: unbelievably relatively new for a lot of people. And when
Speaker 3: they see women being tough and as you said, checking
Speaker 3: and doing all the things that you do when you're
Speaker 3: a competitive athlete, it almost trips people up in terms
Speaker 3: of their expectations. So I still think we're we're in
Speaker 3: a transitional period for opening up so many avenues for
Speaker 3: women or people of color or and and it it
Speaker 3: just almost messes with our greatconceptions in a way, if
Speaker 3: that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yes, And do you think, you know, having had to
Speaker 1: thread that impossible to thread needle of being the best
Speaker 1: at what you do and yet somehow never getting in
Speaker 1: anybody's way, do you think that social media to sort
Speaker 1: of come back around to the beginning, this opportunity to
Speaker 1: create this whole new space for yourself to continue your
Speaker 1: career without having to be, you know, handcuffed to one
Speaker 1: of the Big three or whatever it may look like
Speaker 1: in the landscape today. Do you think in a way
Speaker 1: that helps you undo some of those misconceptions, you can
Speaker 1: you can be exactly who you are. You can be
Speaker 1: brilliant and want to watch silly dog videos, and you
Speaker 1: can talk to people about gender inequality and also some
Speaker 1: you know, cool new play that you saw. In a way,
Speaker 1: you get to be more yourself because you can be
Speaker 1: more of a whole.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 3: I mean, I felt very much free to be who
Speaker 3: I was when I was at the Today Show, less
Speaker 3: so when I was doing the CBS Evening News, where
Speaker 3: I think I had to fit into a much smaller
Speaker 3: box being a serious, credible news person. And I think
Speaker 3: I've always been very multi dimensional, you know, I think
Speaker 3: media it's tempting to well, you know this, Sophia put
Speaker 3: people in a box like as a type, right, and
Speaker 3: I think it is very hard or or it was
Speaker 3: hard for people understand to understand kind of the whole
Speaker 3: breadth of the person, especially in news, because I think
Speaker 3: women were trying so hard to be taken seriously and
Speaker 3: be credible. And I think on the Today Show I
Speaker 3: was allowed to really let my freak flag fly and
Speaker 3: be kind of who I was, you know, goofy and fun,
Speaker 3: but also hard hitting and serious when it was required.
Speaker 3: And I feel like social media I'm just kind of
Speaker 3: an extension of that. And what's great for me having
Speaker 3: my own company and being able to shine a light
Speaker 3: on various issues and being selective about it. You know,
Speaker 3: I have a lot of freedom and I don't have
Speaker 3: to appeal to someone. Can I please do a story
Speaker 3: on this? Or don't you think we what about a
Speaker 3: story on this now. I did have a lot of
Speaker 3: authority when I was at CBS because I was the
Speaker 3: managing editor and I could say, hey, I want to
Speaker 3: do a series on dating violence.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It was after Yardly Love, who play Lacross at Uva
Speaker 3: was beaten to death by her then boyfriend, and I
Speaker 3: wanted to do it, and I wanted to do more
Speaker 3: stories where women were at the center of the story.
Speaker 3: And I was able to do that, and I feel
Speaker 3: really proud that I was able to do that. But
Speaker 3: I think for me now, I don't you know, what
Speaker 3: I don't have to do, which I'm so grateful for,
Speaker 3: is play politics. I don't have to suck up to people,
Speaker 3: and I don't have to be coy or cute or
Speaker 3: you know, basically you know, like I like I had
Speaker 3: to do. For example, at sixty Minutes, there was this
Speaker 3: whole environment where the people in charge were guys, and
Speaker 3: I would it was just really hard and that is exhausting,
Speaker 3: and I'm really not good at it. I'm kind of
Speaker 3: not a political person. I treat the security guard the
Speaker 3: same way I treat the CEO, Like it's just not
Speaker 3: in my nature to suck up to people. And I
Speaker 3: just hate when I see people doing that. It's so
Speaker 3: distasteful to me. And I think that's one of the
Speaker 3: best things is because you know, it's the company has
Speaker 3: my name on it and I'm partially running the show
Speaker 3: along with my husband. That I had the freedom to
Speaker 3: pursue what I want to pursue without having to kind
Speaker 3: of beg to do it, or without being disappointed that,
Speaker 3: you know, my story idea was given to somebody else
Speaker 3: because the guy in charge didn't like.
Speaker 1: Me, right, Oh oh the.
Speaker 2: Worse so annoying.
Speaker 1: It's so annoying, And I'm with you. I just I
Speaker 1: don't have that in me. I know people who are
Speaker 1: very good at playing the game, and they're always networking
Speaker 1: and they're building relationships and hosting a dinner party with
Speaker 1: the influentials. So I don't know how they do it.
Speaker 1: I don't have the energy.
Speaker 3: Well, I think sometimes, I mean, I think you, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think it depends what you're guided by. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're guided by what can that person do for me?
Speaker 2: Is one thing.
Speaker 3: But if you're guided by, oh, this person is really interesting,
Speaker 3: has a lot to offer, and I'm curious about what
Speaker 3: they're doing, and you know, if it comes from that
Speaker 3: authentic place, yeah, I think it's fine. I think it's
Speaker 3: when there's a power dynamic where you have to you know,
Speaker 3: where you have to be subservient and emphasize your subservience
Speaker 3: in order to get in order to be treated a
Speaker 3: certain way. That's what I can't do, and I don't
Speaker 3: think you'd be very good at it either.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not. I actually think that's sort of that
Speaker 1: curiosity and the desire to just to just explore it
Speaker 1: with fascinating people is that's what led me to start
Speaker 1: my podcast. I thought, hold on, I can create a
Speaker 1: job where I get to sit for an hour with
Speaker 1: people I absolutely admire and just ask them questions. That
Speaker 1: sounds like the best thing ever.
Speaker 3: You have the best podcast voice on the planet. Oh,
Speaker 3: You're honest, you have the greatest voice.
Speaker 2: I love it. I love how raspy it is.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Well, look who's talking? I mean you
Speaker 1: you your podcast? I love so much for our friends
Speaker 1: at home. Next question with Katie Couric. If somehow you've
Speaker 1: been living under a rock and you haven't heard it
Speaker 1: yet is so stupendous. Did did that feel like a
Speaker 1: natural extension, as you were mentioning earlier, of that fully
Speaker 1: embodied you that you got to be on the Today Show?
Speaker 1: Or or was it something else? Was there some next
Speaker 1: ways of curiosity for you too?
Speaker 3: I think it's just the freedom that a podcast affords
Speaker 3: to you. Know, you can say, gosh, I really want
Speaker 3: to talk to the writers from Hacks. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean this is a shameless plug to get them
Speaker 3: to hopefully one of them is listening. You know, I
Speaker 3: don't want to talk to the stars. I want to
Speaker 3: talk to the writers, one of the writers.
Speaker 1: This is absolute kismeth that you said this, because the
Speaker 1: writers of Hacks are two of my oldest friends who
Speaker 1: were my very first roommates in my home, and they
Speaker 1: are now married to each other. And the fact that
Speaker 1: of anyone you could pick, you said those two. I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely going to have my producers clip this little audio
Speaker 1: segment and I'm going to text it to them after this.
Speaker 2: So you got to help a sister out because I
Speaker 2: got you.
Speaker 3: I think they are I love that show. I think
Speaker 3: it's so clever. I think writers are so important and
Speaker 3: so underappreciated.
Speaker 1: I do you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, they're the brains behind the operation. They are
Speaker 3: what makes you know they make brilliant television. So yes, okay, good,
Speaker 3: But anyway, what I was saying is like, I just
Speaker 3: love the fact that now I can't get everyone, Like
Speaker 3: right now, I'm trying to get Joe Biden to do
Speaker 3: an interview with me, both on video and in podcast form,
Speaker 3: and that's the beauty of it, you know, you can
Speaker 3: do kind of iterate the content for different platforms and
Speaker 3: the way people like to consume content. And so far
Speaker 3: they are not they're not saying yes yet. But I
Speaker 3: haven't given up hope. But it's just like wow, I
Speaker 3: you know, this woman wrote a book called sociopath, How
Speaker 3: fascinating she is one, and she went to school to
Speaker 3: learn more about the condition.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to talk to her. So I think
Speaker 2: it's like cue. It just felt like.
Speaker 3: Sublime freedom to be able to talk to whoever you
Speaker 3: want in a way that you hope will be instructive
Speaker 3: and entertaining for other people. Right, it can't be completely
Speaker 3: self indulgent, but if you're passionate and interested in someone,
Speaker 3: that will show and I think that will make it
Speaker 3: more interesting for the listener.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. And I do find it
Speaker 1: in an ever more polarized world that there's something about
Speaker 1: these conversations that can really turn the temperature down and
Speaker 1: remind people that we're all just trying to figure this
Speaker 1: out together.
Speaker 3: I hope, So, you know, I hope so it's it's
Speaker 3: very hard. It's you know, we have become everything has
Speaker 3: become so personal and so full of vitriol and anger
Speaker 3: and grievance that gosh, it's it would be so nice
Speaker 3: to be able to find that common ground between and
Speaker 3: among people where because I do think, I don't know,
Speaker 3: the tribalism is really disconcerting to me, this division that
Speaker 3: exists in our country, and I think people who disagree
Speaker 3: with policy should be able to have civil conversations about them.
Speaker 3: I think what's hard is these media ecosystems have created
Speaker 3: echo chambers, and I think the worst, the least flexible
Speaker 3: side of us just gets almost calcified by hearing what
Speaker 3: we want to hear over and over and over and
Speaker 3: over again. And I remember I got in trouble on
Speaker 3: Bill Mark because I said after the insurrection that I
Speaker 3: thought some people needed to be deprogrammed, and I got
Speaker 3: roundly criticized by the side that I was saying needed
Speaker 3: to be deprogrammed. But I think kind of we all do,
Speaker 3: We all kind of need to be deep programmed because.
Speaker 2: We're just getting.
Speaker 3: You know, reinforced, and our minds are closing to other
Speaker 3: ways of looking at things or at least understanding that
Speaker 3: people might look at a situation differently.
Speaker 1: Well, what also really worries me is the refuting of facts.
Speaker 1: You know, while I do believe that the silos are
Speaker 1: bad for everyone, I will say there's only one side
Speaker 1: erecting gallows at the Capitol in Washington, d C. You
Speaker 1: know these The effect of this sort of vitriol and
Speaker 1: violence is I wouldn't say evenly distributed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know.
Speaker 1: What scares me is that the facts are ceasing to matter.
Speaker 1: You know, I was, as I do because I like
Speaker 1: to post about the news a lot. I was sharing
Speaker 1: about the day that the former president was indicted, you know,
Speaker 1: guilty on all thirty four felony counts. That is an
Speaker 1: unbelievable sentence to utter out loud. And I had someone
Speaker 1: respond to me and say, it's the federal juries are
Speaker 1: all rigged. And it was you know, twelve liberals that
Speaker 1: convicted him. And I'm like, it's not a federal jury.
Speaker 1: This isn't happening at the DOJ. This is happening in
Speaker 1: a state court. And by the way, one of the
Speaker 1: jurors that Donald Trump's defense team handpicked was a woman
Speaker 1: who said she only one gets her news from Truth
Speaker 1: Social She's a huge fan of the former president, and
Speaker 1: she voted guilty on all thirty four counts. Sir, this
Speaker 1: isn't some quote liberal conspiracy. This is the justice system.
Speaker 1: The guy is a criminal, I know, and that's just it.
Speaker 3: It's so troubling when you see these these institutions that
Speaker 3: really are the underpinning of our democracy. Yes, get not
Speaker 3: even ridiculed, but disrespected and dismantled in a weird way.
Speaker 3: But no, I totally hear you, and yes it is.
Speaker 3: It is really really troubling. I think there are people
Speaker 3: on the fringes that have very loud voices and sometimes
Speaker 3: drown out people who are in the more sensible middle.
Speaker 1: And more willing to listen to each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's a shame. Jonathan, he wrote
Speaker 3: an article in The Atlantic that you probably read, Sophia,
Speaker 3: but if you haven't, your listeners should as well call
Speaker 3: why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid? And
Speaker 3: it talks about the percentage of people the voices on
Speaker 3: social media are really at the ends of the spectrum,
Speaker 3: and they take I think they they take up so
Speaker 3: much oxygen and an inordinate amount of space that I
Speaker 3: think sometimes we get the wrong ession of what most
Speaker 3: Americans are thinking and what most Americans believe. So that
Speaker 3: gives me some degree of solace. But but you're right,
Speaker 3: and it's almost like a cancer that you know, people
Speaker 3: start starts repeating this stuff and then it almost becomes
Speaker 3: contagious and then impressionable people will then kind of absorb
Speaker 3: that and reflect that back out to the world. And so, yes,
Speaker 3: I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Well so going into I mean, you know it is
Speaker 1: as you said, the last ten years, certainly, but this
Speaker 1: year is an election year, and you know, again this
Speaker 1: can kind of be like the beginning right where everything
Speaker 1: feels big and heavy and scary. How how do you
Speaker 1: stay positive and keep your stress in check? Is it
Speaker 1: reminding yourself that there are a lot more of us
Speaker 1: that are willing to listen to each other than the
Speaker 1: folks on the fringes or do you have some wonderful
Speaker 1: secret life hack that you need to tell the rest
Speaker 1: of us about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I get scared and depressed, I do,
Speaker 3: and anxious, but I am constantly reminded of good people
Speaker 3: out in the world. Honestly, I see people at a
Speaker 3: grassroots level doing things for other people. I see people
Speaker 3: teaching migrants from West Africa English in the park. I see,
Speaker 3: you know, my friend friends Brian Wallack and Sondra Opraaviyah.
Speaker 3: I just executive produced a documentary about them. He's dealing
Speaker 3: with als and yet they're changing the face of the
Speaker 3: disease by getting more funding and forming a community of
Speaker 3: people and making a blueprint for others who have so
Speaker 3: called rare diseases.
Speaker 2: You know. So I actually maybe I'm.
Speaker 3: Just uh, you know, hardwired for happiness and optimism. But
Speaker 3: I do think that most people are really good people.
Speaker 2: I actually do.
Speaker 3: I think they're really nasty, mean people with the who
Speaker 3: are ignorant and.
Speaker 2: You know that.
Speaker 3: I think they they're loud, but I do think they're
Speaker 3: in the minority. I think that's what keeps me positive
Speaker 3: for the most part. But I'm honestly, I'm I'm concerned
Speaker 3: about our country. I'm concerned about our values. I'm concerned
Speaker 3: about our moral compass.
Speaker 2: Yes, And.
Speaker 3: It's perplexing to me. I don't know if it's an
Speaker 3: indictment of the media. I don't you know, which has
Speaker 3: become so bifurcated. I think that, you know, I don't
Speaker 3: know whether it's a product of our education system that
Speaker 3: isn't emphasizing civics. I don't know if it's a symptom
Speaker 3: of loneliness because our community infrastructure just isn't quite what.
Speaker 2: It used to be.
Speaker 3: And perhaps it's social media and iPhones that have made
Speaker 3: people more isolated. And you know, I think people who
Speaker 3: say things like what you described in your post or
Speaker 3: what I get on a regular basis, would never say
Speaker 3: it to our faces. And you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just feel like everybody is just loaded for Bear
Speaker 3: twenty four to seven, and I think it's I think
Speaker 3: it's symptomatic of a lot of other societal issues that
Speaker 3: are manifesting in this kind of anger and grievance. I
Speaker 3: don't know, what the hell do I know, Sophia.
Speaker 1: Well, I get it, and I think the willingness to
Speaker 1: sort of analyze and ask the questions is incredibly important.
Speaker 1: I think remembering to try to meet people with curiosity
Speaker 1: about why they feel what they feel and perhaps what
Speaker 1: they're afraid of, could be a great path to you know,
Speaker 1: resiliency for us as a community. But I also think
Speaker 1: your perspective on this stuff speaks to your resilience as
Speaker 1: an individual. You know, as Katie, you have managed over
Speaker 1: and over again to you know, throughout your career and
Speaker 1: your personal life, choose optimism and resilience. You've modeled that
Speaker 1: for people in ways that you know, in my own
Speaker 1: relative understanding of what it's like to be a person
Speaker 1: who lives life publicly and sometimes begrudgingly publicly like it's
Speaker 1: not easy. And you have been through such incredible success
Speaker 1: and wins and loss and humanity in your life. I mean,
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you built this new company with John,
Speaker 1: you know, your lovely husband, who is such a wonderful
Speaker 1: human And I love the way you smile when people
Speaker 1: talk about him to you, and I love seeing the
Speaker 1: way that the two of you managed to seesaw between
Speaker 1: the personal and professional. You're this beautiful, you know, unit
Speaker 1: you're an inspiring pair. And the world also knows that
Speaker 1: before John came into your life, your first husband, Jay
Speaker 1: passed away. You had to process that loss and his
Speaker 1: illness in public in real time. It I just it
Speaker 1: takes my breath away when I think about it for you,
Speaker 1: and to not only have to go through that, but
Speaker 1: then to courageously and resiliently pursue love after loss, find
Speaker 1: your phase two, your second wave of joy. Like the
Speaker 1: swings that you have experienced as a human being are inspiring,
Speaker 1: but then to do them on the world stage, It's like,
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason you can look at
Speaker 1: people and also the planet with such optimism is because
Speaker 1: you've learned that so personally and you reflect it out
Speaker 1: into the world around you.
Speaker 3: But I also think that's very sweet of you, by
Speaker 3: the way. I mean, I try, But I also think
Speaker 3: maybe what's in short supply is empathy. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: like seeking to understand why certain people feel a certain
Speaker 3: way and how they have been culturally conditioned. Now, remember
Speaker 3: I did an hour for National Geographic a few years
Speaker 3: ago on all these thorny social issues, and one of
Speaker 3: them was on white anxiety, and I really examined changing demographics,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, to have a majority minority population by
Speaker 3: twenty forty four, and obviously much more diversity in this country.
Speaker 3: And I remember talking to some gentlemen and they lived
Speaker 3: in a small town in Nebraska, and they were very
Speaker 3: upset that there was like a Mexican Pride Day, and
Speaker 3: you know, their point was, you know, we're from Germany
Speaker 3: or we're from Poland originally, but you know, we're Americans first,
Speaker 3: and I think we've seen it anyway. I don't know
Speaker 3: why I'm talking about this, but I think it's interesting
Speaker 3: because we've seen a real shift in a change from
Speaker 3: assimilation right to I think, preserving one's national like identity.
Speaker 3: And as we've become a nation of immigrants, people also
Speaker 3: are gravitating to people in their communities, and there is
Speaker 3: I think less and I'm not making a value judgment
Speaker 3: either way, but less assimilation. So I was trying to
Speaker 3: understand where these people who were upset about the Mexican
Speaker 3: Pride Day or whatever it was, and the people who
Speaker 3: wanted to, you know, be proud of their cultural heritage.
Speaker 3: And I just think that change is hard, right, Change
Speaker 3: is hard for people. And I think the more we
Speaker 3: can talk about change, and the more we let down
Speaker 3: our guard and drop the walls between us, the more
Speaker 3: we can. And I've always felt like Sophia, if you
Speaker 3: understand a problem, then you can fix it. But if
Speaker 3: you don't kind of unravel what's causing the adjuta or
Speaker 3: the stress or the anger, then you're not going to
Speaker 3: be able to address it. But so I was trying
Speaker 3: to be empathetic to these people who are like, gosh,
Speaker 3: change is hard.
Speaker 2: You know, this is not how we felt about the country.
Speaker 3: And you know, so I think empathy is a really
Speaker 3: important component to kind of getting to the bottom of
Speaker 3: some of these strong, hard feelings that people are having.
Speaker 1: Sure, and now a word from our sponsors who make
Speaker 1: this show possible. And I think also to be willing
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what people underneath that might feel they've lost.
Speaker 1: You know, for example, when my grandmother immigrated through Ellis Island,
Speaker 1: you know, to America from Italy with her parents and
Speaker 1: the rest of her family, you know, times were different.
Speaker 1: You were meant to assimilate my grandmother, forbade my great
Speaker 1: grandparents from teaching my mother Italian once my mom was five.
Speaker 1: It just was not allowed because they needed to be American.
Speaker 1: And so in one generation, my mother lost her language,
Speaker 1: you know, she lost her tether to her heritage.
Speaker 2: Right, and now.
Speaker 1: That is such a source of sadness for my mom
Speaker 1: and for me, But for my grandmother it was imperative.
Speaker 2: But isn't that interesting how you seeing that kind of
Speaker 2: big shift.
Speaker 1: Yes, but I think because we were so lucky we
Speaker 1: have more information than ever. We understand more psychology than ever,
Speaker 1: We have more access to therapy than ever. We I
Speaker 1: believe currently are more capable of holding the dialectics multiple
Speaker 1: truths at the same time. I believe if my grandmother
Speaker 1: were alive today, she would be really inspired to know
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to learn Italian. But I can understand
Speaker 1: how if you'd gone back then and you had interviewed
Speaker 1: her in the way that you interviewed these people, she
Speaker 1: would have been in a panic because her greatest fear
Speaker 1: was not fitting in. Her greatest fear was the othering
Speaker 1: of her children, the denial of opportunity based on a
Speaker 1: sense of other. And I think it's hard when you
Speaker 1: have been told that unless you assimilate, you will be other,
Speaker 1: and then you get to see people coming behind you
Speaker 1: who get to be both. It's actually probably painful. Your
Speaker 1: anger is probably a mask for the way you feel
Speaker 1: a little bit cheated. And if we could open that dialogue,
Speaker 1: I think it would be I think it would be
Speaker 1: so exciting. Those are the dialogues like if I had
Speaker 1: it my way and I could just hop in like
Speaker 1: an airstream for the next you know. However, many months
Speaker 1: until the election I'd just drive around and talk to people,
Speaker 1: be like, let's have a barbecue and talk like I
Speaker 1: really want to know.
Speaker 2: You should do that. That would be awesome, wouldn't that.
Speaker 1: Be so cool? Yeah, well maybe we'll go together. Well,
Speaker 1: let's call let's tell John, let's get the personal hat
Speaker 1: on or the professional hat on for your your personal
Speaker 1: professional partnership at home and tell your husband that we
Speaker 1: have a story idea and says you're the boss. We
Speaker 1: can probably get it done.
Speaker 3: See in a few months, we're going We're getting in
Speaker 3: our airstream and we're going to go for barbecues all
Speaker 3: across the country. You know, I honestly feel like a
Speaker 3: group of people needs to do that. You know, I
Speaker 3: think it would be it would be amazing. It's interesting
Speaker 3: that you talk about thinking dialectically, because yes, on the
Speaker 3: one hand, I think you're right. On the other hand,
Speaker 3: I think that has been lost. You know, in this
Speaker 3: very binary you have to be four or against. You
Speaker 3: have to be pro this or pro that, and that
Speaker 3: you can't say yes. And my daughter's twenty is very funny.
Speaker 3: She has this group called the Divas for Dialectical Thinking,
Speaker 3: and they meet I think they meet every week and
Speaker 3: they talk about current events, and they've been really focused
Speaker 3: on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and talking to
Speaker 3: rabbis and talking to historians and talking to Palestinian scholars
Speaker 3: and really trying to educate themselves. And you know, I
Speaker 3: think it is I don't know why everyone, I guess.
Speaker 3: I guess you can feel very strongly, and I'm not
Speaker 3: saying you can't, but I think that sometimes we have
Speaker 3: to understand and have empathy for both situations and appreciate
Speaker 3: that something can be true. And yes, I don't know
Speaker 3: if that's making any sense, but it does. That's sort
Speaker 3: of how how I feel. And I guess as a journalist,
Speaker 3: I've been trained to try to understand different perspectives, and
Speaker 3: not necessarily. I mean, I do feel strongly about reproductive rights,
Speaker 3: and I feel strongly about stricter gun laws. You know,
Speaker 3: there are certain issues I feel comfortable saying I think
Speaker 3: I believe this, But I do try to in my
Speaker 3: role give various perspectives to hopefully achieve a deeper understanding
Speaker 3: of issues.
Speaker 1: I think that's so incredibly important, and and you know,
Speaker 1: I think you have to. You have to try to
Speaker 1: figure out how these how these things happen and how
Speaker 1: these generational conflicts play out. And really for me, I mean, Isabelle.
Speaker 2: Wilkerson's work Oh Love changed.
Speaker 1: Everything for me understanding you know, the research on cast.
Speaker 2: That she did so the warmth of other sons Oh
Speaker 2: my god, I mean.
Speaker 1: What a book. But really for me beginning to understand,
Speaker 1: for example, the conflict you're referring to in the Middle East,
Speaker 1: to finally have the aha facts of you have two
Speaker 1: populations who have been some of the worst victims of
Speaker 1: caste in the world going through this cyclical, horrible experience
Speaker 1: of you know, back and forth pain and outside influence
Speaker 1: and outside trauma and genocide, and I mean it is
Speaker 1: just it helped me understand. Oh, this is part of
Speaker 1: why this is so hard to solve in a moment,
Speaker 1: because of the way this fluidity of caste has harmed
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. And the way she
Speaker 1: explained it that has really burned itself in my brain
Speaker 1: is that if you envision a house, cast is the foundation,
Speaker 1: the terrible foundation of other and willingness to commit violence
Speaker 1: and willingness to harm the other. That every room that
Speaker 1: is an ism or a phobia is built on so sexism, racism, homophobia, classism,
Speaker 1: all all of.
Speaker 2: These anti semitism.
Speaker 1: Anti semitism, transphobia, you know, islamophoses, islamophobia, all of it.
Speaker 1: That these isms and phobias are the rooms that are
Speaker 1: the shape shifters of the oppression caused by caste. And
Speaker 1: I went, I finally get it. I have I have
Speaker 1: tried to study for almost twenty years now the interconnectedness
Speaker 1: of all of these systems and pull at the thread
Speaker 1: of how this happens to us, Why gender violence exists,
Speaker 1: Why in places where there is environmental devastation, it typically
Speaker 1: makes gender violence worse. Why certain things happen when migration
Speaker 1: or demographics change. And I always I got it. I
Speaker 1: was like, I see this and this and this, I
Speaker 1: see the domino effects. But to understand the floor has
Speaker 1: been such a revolutionary thing for me. And when you
Speaker 1: begin to make space for those dialectics, as you mentioned
Speaker 1: to say, all of this can be wrong, all of
Speaker 1: these things can be true. When you see the exercising
Speaker 1: of the viciousness of cast you go, oh, we have
Speaker 1: so much more work to do. And I feel partially
Speaker 1: again to circle all the way back to the beginning,
Speaker 1: so unbearably lucky despite all its faults, to be in
Speaker 1: this technological era because I get to have this conversation
Speaker 1: with you. At the beginning of season three of this show,
Speaker 1: I got to interview Ava Duverne about turning the Passed
Speaker 1: into Origin the film and learn about how you take
Speaker 1: this brilliant academic work and turn it into the most
Speaker 1: incredible hero's journey story for a woman in a movie.
Speaker 1: I was like, how did you do it? How could
Speaker 1: you have done this? And it's these conversations that have
Speaker 1: shaped my thinking, my presence. And then in a way, Katie,
Speaker 1: when you said, you know, there's so many more of
Speaker 1: us willing to listen and meet each other in the middle,
Speaker 1: I believe personally that I've become so much more willing
Speaker 1: to do that personally, professionally, and politically since I started
Speaker 1: doing the show, because I've just gotten to know so
Speaker 1: many people so much better.
Speaker 3: And do you talk to people with whom you violently disagree, Sophia,
Speaker 3: because I think, you know, getting back to our upcoming
Speaker 3: airstream trip, let's go. You know, I think I think
Speaker 3: you can model conversations. I mean, I should do a
Speaker 3: better job of this too, with people who think very differently,
Speaker 3: and I mean not everyone, because some I think are
Speaker 3: operating in an alternative universe, but to kind of unpack
Speaker 3: where someone's coming from beyond sort of the the trump
Speaker 3: of it all, but to talk about what lies beneath,
Speaker 3: you know, what are some of the pain points and
Speaker 3: what are some of the things that may make someone
Speaker 3: gravitate towards someone right who maybe we can't understand, but
Speaker 3: maybe we would understand, and then in the process of
Speaker 3: that understanding be able to address the the you know,
Speaker 3: the fundamental is shoes that are kind of separating us,
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what that makes me think a lot
Speaker 1: about is the conversation we were having earlier about how
Speaker 1: women are expected to compete but also expected to kumbayah
Speaker 1: all the time. And my best friends had something really
Speaker 1: great to me. She was like, no, we advocate for
Speaker 1: women period. We don't associate with women who are unkind
Speaker 1: or disingenuous. And I was like, Ah, that's a big thing.
Speaker 1: You can work toward gender equity, and you can work
Speaker 1: toward closing the lending gap, and you can work toward
Speaker 1: equity and equality as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you have to be friends with every single woman in
Speaker 1: the world, because not everyone's nice man, woman, non binary
Speaker 1: person like you know.
Speaker 3: No, I think you're right. I think you're talking sort
Speaker 3: of the macro level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what it is, right, Like this idea
Speaker 1: that you're saying, Yes, do I want to have conversation
Speaker 1: of the people I don't agree with? Like, have I
Speaker 1: through this show become friends with Evan McMullin and Adam
Speaker 1: Kinsinger are like people who most folks who consider themselves
Speaker 1: progressive might not think. I'd be friends with absolutely, and
Speaker 1: I cherish them and their opinions, and I like the
Speaker 1: pushback they'll offer to some of my thinking. Do I
Speaker 1: want to sit down with someone who, you know, tried
Speaker 1: to hang the vice president on January sixth? No? I
Speaker 1: do not. Like That's where I'm going to go ahead
Speaker 1: and probably draw my boundary. Would I like to talk
Speaker 1: to a family member of someone who was there. I would.
Speaker 1: I'd like to know their thinking. You know, I think
Speaker 1: all the time I'm trying to stretch my willingness while
Speaker 1: making sure I'm retaining boundaries. But I don't want my
Speaker 1: boundaries to be rooted in petulance. I want them to
Speaker 1: be about you know, safety and respect, and as you said,
Speaker 1: a at least a willing to agree on facts like
Speaker 1: one plus one does in fact, equal to the sky
Speaker 1: is not green. You know, some basic facts and then
Speaker 1: we can talk about our feelings and our opinions.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think part of it is the the media, the
Speaker 3: fragmentation of media and who you're listening to and the
Speaker 3: information you're getting, and how it's reinforcing a certain perspective
Speaker 3: that isn't accurate. You know you mentioned earlier about or
Speaker 3: I was talking about how it's been gratifying to see
Speaker 3: more women in important roles and I recently posted this
Speaker 3: and I got I saw it on the female quotient.
Speaker 3: You know, I was talking about how certain attitudes are
Speaker 3: baked in.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna play this for your listener's rule.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, please, Rick.
Speaker 4: Talk about the dream gap. It's that girl and their
Speaker 4: full potential. The scene started at A five. Girls stop
Speaker 4: believing they can be presidents.
Speaker 5: Stig thinkers, engineers, CEOs, and the list goes, aren't Why
Speaker 5: because one else are regularing to believe?
Speaker 4: When my eight seven were more likely to think that
Speaker 4: boys are smurdered than us, that's ridiculous. We are three
Speaker 4: times less likely to be given a science related toy.
Speaker 5: That's sad.
Speaker 4: And when our parents are twice as likely to google
Speaker 4: is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted?
Speaker 2: That's not cool.
Speaker 4: We need to see brilliant women being brilliant and see
Speaker 4: how they got to where they are to imagine ourselves
Speaker 4: so what they do, but we can't do it at all. Well, dads, feathers.
Speaker 5: And bosses, we need all.
Speaker 1: Of you to help mm the dream gap to all
Speaker 1: of us.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love them, but that's what I was saying.
Speaker 3: You know, for all our progress, you know, there are
Speaker 3: still these deeply embedded ideas that infiltrate our dreams and
Speaker 3: keep them from coming to fruition. And so I think
Speaker 3: that's what we need to and that's what I think
Speaker 3: people respond to when they see, as you said earlier,
Speaker 3: people getting checked on the court, or people you know,
Speaker 3: behaving in a certain way. It it doesn't jive with
Speaker 3: their preconceived notions. And we have to continue to try
Speaker 3: to to shatter these myths and these limitations that are
Speaker 3: placed on us.
Speaker 2: We've gotten very heavy here, Sophie.
Speaker 1: We you know what, for me, it feels inspiring because
Speaker 1: you just said it. It is a myth, and I
Speaker 1: think the more we can disrupt those myths, you know,
Speaker 1: the more we can take that old dusty carpet and
Speaker 1: you know, throw it over the clothesline and whack it
Speaker 1: with a tennis racket, like shake the dust out, change
Speaker 1: it up. It feels I don't know, it feels very
Speaker 1: exciting to me. It feels like part of the work
Speaker 1: of our lifetimes, don't you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And I think you know, to your point when you
Speaker 3: left school early to go see Oprah, you know, we
Speaker 3: have to see more Oprah's and more Diane Sawyer's and
Speaker 3: more Intra Neuis and you know, more Billy Jing Kings,
Speaker 3: and I could go on and on and on, but
Speaker 3: I think the more we see these people what they say,
Speaker 3: you know, you can't.
Speaker 2: You can't.
Speaker 3: If you can't see her, you can't be her. So
Speaker 3: you know, again, I think it's, as you would say, Sophia,
Speaker 3: a work in progress.
Speaker 1: There it is. Well, actually, you lead me to my
Speaker 1: very favorite question to ask my guests, Katie, and I'm
Speaker 1: so curious to know now for you after you answered
Speaker 1: it in season one, what feels like you are work
Speaker 1: in progress right now, right here in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: I think still finding that. I think it's still finding
Speaker 3: that balance of doing things that you think are important,
Speaker 3: of being useful, of accomplishing things, and also the intangible
Speaker 3: things like being a good mom and now grandmother because
Speaker 3: my daughter just had a little baby boy, and you know,
Speaker 3: being a good friend, spending quality time, not achieving, but
Speaker 3: just being. I think that's a constant struggle for me.
Speaker 3: I think I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like
Speaker 3: to get better. And I don't know why. I feel
Speaker 3: like I always have to be productive, and you know,
Speaker 3: I don't think that makes necessarily for a joyful life.
Speaker 3: If you're feeling so much pressure to produce, yeah, it
Speaker 3: takes away time from just being, yeah, enjoying life. So
Speaker 3: I would say that's still and I just feel like
Speaker 3: I'm very cognizant.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm sixty seven.
Speaker 3: I'm on the back nine and although my husband says
Speaker 3: I'm really more like on the fourteenth hole, I'm like, thanks, honey.
Speaker 1: Like that, well done, John.
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, there's so many things I
Speaker 3: still want to do. You know, I'd like to learn Italian.
Speaker 3: I'd like to learn how to be a great cook.
Speaker 3: I'd like to learn how to do so many things,
Speaker 3: and you know, I just don't have time to do
Speaker 3: it all. So I think it's being intentional about how
Speaker 3: I want to spend my time and with whom doing what.
Speaker 3: I still think finding that secret sauce of time allocation
Speaker 3: is still something that I'm that I'm working on consciously.
Speaker 1: Well, when you've got any tips and my way, cause
Speaker 1: me too, sister.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a universal problem for people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but it's nice when you hear that. You
Speaker 1: know your heroes and the people you look up to
Speaker 1: are working on it too. You're like, Okay, okay, I'm
Speaker 1: not that behind. We're all no, we're all kind of
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm so
Speaker 1: thrilled to have been able to catch up with you today.
Speaker 1: I love ye, me too, and.
Speaker 3: I so appreciate how how thoughtful you are and how
Speaker 3: eloquent you are. I like language, and I like words,
Speaker 3: and I really love when people express themselves in a
Speaker 3: way that is you know, that's that's in a way
Speaker 3: that I'm not doing right now, the way that that
Speaker 3: you know is eloquent and almost poetic and expresses exactly
Speaker 3: you know, chooses the right word to express what they're saying.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate and admire that, and I think you
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Katie. That means a lot to
Speaker 1: me coming from you, and I'm so thrilled about everything
Speaker 1: that's you know coming up. I absolutely love next question.
Speaker 1: And I know our listeners, all of our whipsmarties out.
Speaker 2: There will read our newsletter.
Speaker 1: Oh the newsletter is so good.
Speaker 3: Sign up at Katiecurrek dot com. You know, we have
Speaker 3: so many great writers and journalists working on it every
Speaker 3: day and I'm so I'm so grateful and proud of,
Speaker 3: grateful for and proud of them. And we try to
Speaker 3: we try to help people understand this crazy world. And
Speaker 3: I think we're we're making a big contribution.
Speaker 2: In that department. So and then we have a lot
Speaker 2: of fun stuff, you know, John has.
Speaker 3: Fathers Day's gift ideas and and you know, so it's
Speaker 3: not all super heavy, but I feel like you can
Speaker 3: really kind of get caught up and understand the world
Speaker 3: so you can move on to living your life if
Speaker 3: you just open our newsletter every morning. And that's sort
Speaker 3: of the goal. You don't want to be the dumb
Speaker 3: one at the water.
Speaker 1: Cooler, you know, oh God, the horror.
Speaker 3: And thanks for everything you're doing, and I hope I
Speaker 3: get to see you in person soon.
Speaker 1: All right, my dear, I'll send you a note and
Speaker 1: we'll find a.
Speaker 3: Time that would be awesome. Okay, thank you for today