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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress Whipsmarty's.

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Speaker 1: Today we are joined by a member of the Work

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Speaker 1: in Progress family who is here for a follow up

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Speaker 1: and I could not be more thrilled. Today's guest is

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Speaker 1: none other than Katie Kuric. You know her as a

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Speaker 1: legendary American journalist and presenter, the founder of Katie Kurrek Media,

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Speaker 1: and the publisher of Wake Up Call, an amazing newsletter

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Speaker 1: which if you're not subscribed to, you need to be.

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Speaker 1: And as if that wasn't enough, she's also the host

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Speaker 1: of Next Question with Katie Kuric. She happens to be

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite journalistic brains, one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: women to talk to about the complexities of modern life,

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Speaker 1: and one of the most inspiring people I know because

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Speaker 1: she's always so curious about everyone she meets, whether that's

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Speaker 1: someone she agrees with or someone she might even passionately

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Speaker 1: disagree with. Katie is such an advocate for holding dialectics,

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Speaker 1: the fact that many things can be true at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and figuring out how we can all meet

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Speaker 1: and care about each other in the middle. Today, she's

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Speaker 1: here to give us a little preview on season nine

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Speaker 1: of her podcast, on which she dives into a variety

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Speaker 1: of topics with some of the world's most interesting and

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Speaker 1: influential people to explore the big ideas that are percolating

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Speaker 1: in the zeitgeist, but focusing on slowing down, diving deep,

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Speaker 1: and connecting with each other. Her show really, for me,

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Speaker 1: feels like a reprieve from a culture that is obsessed

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Speaker 1: to with quick hot takes and surface levels small talk.

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Speaker 1: She is helping me and all of you and all

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Speaker 1: of her listeners take a breath, be together and figure

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Speaker 1: out what comes next. Let's hear from Katie.

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Speaker 2: How are you, Sophia.

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Speaker 1: I'm great. How are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good. Busy, Yes, I'm sure you are.

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Speaker 3: Everybody's so busy, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that. I was

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Speaker 1: talking to my therapist about this this morning, and he

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Speaker 1: was saying that, you know, first it was computers, and

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Speaker 1: then it was smartphones, and then COVID, and each of

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Speaker 1: these kind of world changing either advances in technology or events,

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Speaker 1: has further deteriorated the line between personal and professional time.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, we're all just sort of in this

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Speaker 1: swirl where we're supposed to be on and working and

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Speaker 1: reachable and responding every second of every day. And we

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Speaker 1: were just sort of talking about the mental health implications

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Speaker 1: of that about an hour and a half ago.

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Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, well yeah, I've been fascinated by that.

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Speaker 3: And how busy. You know, busy has become kind of

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Speaker 3: a weird badge of honor too. Yeah, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: almost like a humble brag, or not really a humble brag,

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Speaker 3: just a brag. And yeah, and I also think like

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Speaker 3: work has changed. I used to think, you know, I

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Speaker 3: used to go to the Today Show, do the show,

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Speaker 3: figure out what I was doing tomorrow, maybe do a

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Speaker 3: couple of extra interviews, and go home. But now I

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Speaker 3: feel like we feel so scattered because we're doing things

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Speaker 3: for different venues and different platforms and different things. So

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Speaker 3: it doesn't feel as much of you know, going getting up,

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Speaker 3: doing a task, focusing on that task. You kind of

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Speaker 3: feel like it's you're all over the place because you

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Speaker 3: are right.

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Speaker 1: And in a way to your point, we all used

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Speaker 1: to have a job and then maybe do some support

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Speaker 1: work for the job, but now you're expected to have

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Speaker 1: your day job, whether that's you know, on a TV

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Speaker 1: series or you know, a network show like you're referring to,

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Speaker 1: and then you're meant to be a content studio, and

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Speaker 1: then you're meant to have a social media presence, but

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Speaker 1: it can't just be professional because then you're cold. So

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Speaker 1: you're also supposed to produce content about your life, right,

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Speaker 1: And you're supposed to have time to have a life

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Speaker 1: without always having your phone out, but you're expected to

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Speaker 1: always be reachable because now your life is for business,

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Speaker 1: verticals and likely multi city and it's like we're all

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Speaker 1: kind of essentially expected to be a full crew under

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Speaker 1: one little human umbrella. And it's very.

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Speaker 3: Strange, right, and very taxing. And you know, I think

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Speaker 3: I think what you and your therapist were talking about

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Speaker 3: is right your I think life used to have a

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Speaker 3: certain rhythm and now that rhythm has been disrupted by,

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned, twenty four to seven availability, and you know,

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Speaker 3: this need or perceived need to have to share everything

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Speaker 3: and post everything and be this insatiable beast that is

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Speaker 3: social media or various forms of media.

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Speaker 2: So yes, it's a lot.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot, and I don't think people it's almost

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Speaker 3: like a frog in slowly boiling water. I don't think

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Speaker 3: people have appreciated how significantly things have changed, and how

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Speaker 3: our pace of life has undergone this massive transformation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what an amazing jumping off plant with you, Katie,

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Speaker 1: because part of what I wanted to ask you about

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Speaker 1: today was how you managed to do it all. And

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Speaker 1: it is really interesting, you know that we find ourselves here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, longtime listeners of the podcast will be so

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Speaker 1: happy to have you back. Newer listeners of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined again today by the iconic Katie Kuric, who

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Speaker 1: is every bit as inspiring and brilliant as you would assume,

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Speaker 1: and happens to be one of those people who, every

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Speaker 1: time I see her in a room, opens her arms

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Speaker 1: for me to leap into them, and you will text

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Speaker 1: me to check in and see how things are going.

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Speaker 1: And you really manage to seem, I think, to many

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Speaker 1: of your friends and admirers, like someone who has figured

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Speaker 1: out how to do it all, how to spin all

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Speaker 1: of these plates. And it's so interesting that both on

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Speaker 1: a personal and societal level, you are also reflecting on

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Speaker 1: the impact of all of this. I suppose maybe we're

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Speaker 1: all reflecting on it because we're trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what this next sort of wave of life and society

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Speaker 1: look like, how how when you look at these seismic

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Speaker 1: shifts and what they cost, how do you also try

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Speaker 1: to keep the hope alive by considering what these shifts

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Speaker 1: have also offered to us? You know, how do you

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Speaker 1: look at kind of both sides of the coin.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'm on a personal level, I'm really thankful.

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Speaker 3: As much as social media has been damaging on a

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Speaker 3: lot of lever levels, and we can talk about that

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Speaker 3: in a moment, but I'm thankful for disintermediation because it

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Speaker 3: has enabled me to continue what doing what I love

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Speaker 3: to do. You know, it's it's democratized and opened up

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Speaker 3: these avenues for people. I was thinking about this today.

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Speaker 3: You know, in some ways it's made it harder because

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Speaker 3: of the proliferation of all kinds of content. And you know,

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Speaker 3: when there are gatekeepers and fewer outlets, it was harder

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Speaker 3: to get to gain entry. But now with so much

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Speaker 3: out there, it's harder to be heard because there's so

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Speaker 3: much competition for our attention. But just on a personal level, Sophia,

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Speaker 3: I'm glad that you know, when I left I went

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Speaker 3: to NBC obviously for the Today Show, and then CBS

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Speaker 3: Evening News and then I went to Yahoo to kind

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Speaker 3: of understand this digital landscape better. You know, I think

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Speaker 3: I am very grateful that I can have a voice

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Speaker 3: but not work for a big network news organization. So selfishly,

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Speaker 3: I'm really happy that that that there are avenues for

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Speaker 3: me to communicate with people, to hopefully enlighten them or

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Speaker 3: illuminate a complicated topic, or share something that I think

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Speaker 3: is useful or even just fun and you know, slightly

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Speaker 3: entertaining or and so I feel very lucky.

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Speaker 2: You know. I think if I.

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Speaker 3: Was forced out of the business or you know, consider

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Speaker 3: too old or whatever it would be that would not

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Speaker 3: allow me to be on a more traditional media platform, I.

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Speaker 2: Would be really sad.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think I would find something else, some

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Speaker 3: other way I hope to be useful in the world.

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Speaker 3: But the fact that I can continue doing what I

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Speaker 3: love to do through a podcast, you know, talk to

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Speaker 3: interesting people like you or Renee Fleming about how music

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Speaker 3: impacts your brain, or Jim Vanda High on his really

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Speaker 3: smart book about how to be a better employer and

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Speaker 3: an employee. You know, I'm insatiably curious, and I'm just

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Speaker 3: so grateful that I have an outlet for that. Still yes,

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Speaker 3: so that's that's the positive. And gosh, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: that was a great, big honking question you asked me, Sophia.

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Speaker 2: What was the other part.

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Speaker 1: I just really jumped in off the high dive. Well

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Speaker 1: that was it, you know, because I think sometimes especially

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Speaker 1: women like us who are so curious and who love

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Speaker 1: fact finding and we love to understand how these things

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Speaker 1: fit into the greater puzzle of society, life around.

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Speaker 2: And learn, I think we love to learn too.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I really think that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that always inspired me as a fan. And then when

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Speaker 1: we became friendly and you know, I got to call

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Speaker 1: you a friend, I was like, oh my god, that's it.

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Speaker 1: It's curiosity. But sometimes I think curiosity can lead to

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Speaker 1: a bit of overwhelm because you do learn all the

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Speaker 1: big scary facts. You read all that data. You understand

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Speaker 1: that people are struggling, or that these things are having

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Speaker 1: negative impacts on teenagers, or you know, all the stuff

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Speaker 1: we all read about, and so I just also love

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Speaker 1: to know what as such a brilliant woman who is

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Speaker 1: so informed keeps you hopeful, and you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: lost on me as you talk about these avenues opening

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Speaker 1: up and you mentioned gatekeeping. So many of these upper echelons,

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Speaker 1: whether it's you know, news, media, reporting business, they've held

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Speaker 1: women out for so long. And I remember from the

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Speaker 1: first time you came on the show, you talking about

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Speaker 1: how watching Mary Tyler Moore really inspired you to want

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Speaker 1: to be in the news. And I really get a

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Speaker 1: kick out of that because same nick at night re

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Speaker 1: runs are my favorite thing to watch with my parents,

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Speaker 1: And I think about what Mary Tyler Moore would think

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Speaker 1: if she could see how for all of its faults

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Speaker 1: these the democratization of voice and platform has particularly allowed

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Speaker 1: so many women to flourish. It's a really incredible thing.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: I think also, you know, more traditional forms of media

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Speaker 3: have recognized that the people who are talking about issues

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Speaker 3: or delivering the news need to look more like the

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Speaker 3: people who are watching it. And I think as demographics

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Speaker 3: have changed, as you know, there's going to be a

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Speaker 3: majority minority population in this country by twenty forty four,

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Speaker 3: but as the country's gotten more diverse and as women

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Speaker 3: have made strides, I think they have recognized that these

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Speaker 3: platforms are not the purview of just singularly white men.

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Speaker 3: And I'm very heartened when I not only look at

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Speaker 3: all these platforms where gosh, I'm amazed at how talented

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Speaker 3: people are. By the way, Sophia, this is just a

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Speaker 3: little quick sidebar. I'm just amazed at the people I

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Speaker 3: see were incredible artists or they can make clothes or

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Speaker 3: they I mean, they're so much talent out there. I'm

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Speaker 3: so thrilled that people have this outlet for expression. I

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Speaker 3: think they always did, but now they're able to share

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Speaker 3: their passion with so many people. I'm like, wow, look

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Speaker 3: at what this person did. Look a look at this

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Speaker 3: cake that this person decorated. Nava, you know, Frosted by

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Speaker 3: Nava is one of my favorite follows. She's i'sak Perlman's

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Speaker 3: daughter and she was I think a pianist or violinist,

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Speaker 3: I can't remember, but she just decorates cake full time

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Speaker 3: and she is an incredible artist and the creations are

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Speaker 3: just beautiful. So anyway, that's my little sidebar. But I

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Speaker 3: do feel like like voices that weren't heard, you know, Gosh,

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Speaker 3: I just I think you not only as I said,

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Speaker 3: look at these platforms. You look at news outlets and

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Speaker 3: cable networks, and goodness, it's so much more diverse. And

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Speaker 3: I think that we've come a long way since I

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Speaker 3: got into the business in nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: I mean I look back sometimes I look at old

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Speaker 3: photos when I was at the Today Show and I'm

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Speaker 3: the only woman, yeah, you know, in the whole group.

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Speaker 3: And now you look at the Today Show and it's

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Speaker 3: just chok, a block full of women. And so I

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Speaker 3: think so much has changed, and I think it's a

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Speaker 3: good thing. And by the way, I like diversity of

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Speaker 3: all kinds. You know, I like to have male energy there,

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Speaker 3: I like to have female energy. I like to have

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Speaker 3: people from different backgrounds. I think sometimes we don't appreciate

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Speaker 3: so economic diversity enough. You know, people who grew up

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Speaker 3: in certain circumstances and understand how people are struggling, or

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Speaker 3: appreciate certain things that other people may not. Or people

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Speaker 3: come from rural environments, and you know, I think that's

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Speaker 3: really important too. So I'm very gratified when I look

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Speaker 3: at how things have changed.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute after a few

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Speaker 1: words from our favorite sponsors. I even think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: a as a younger woman watching you know so many

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Speaker 1: of you, that really example set for me, you know,

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Speaker 1: knowing I wanted to study theater, but for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: deciding to pursue my desire to study journalism at the

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Speaker 1: same time. I'm in college. You know, I looked up

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Speaker 1: to women like you and Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters.

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Speaker 1: You know, there were there were these people I could

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Speaker 1: look at. You know, even in elementary school, I begged

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Speaker 1: my mom to pick me up fifteen minutes before the

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Speaker 1: bell so I could make it in time, so I

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Speaker 1: could make it home in time for Oprah to start.

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Speaker 1: You know, like you just great. You all set these

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Speaker 1: incredible examples for me. And then I think about in

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Speaker 1: my own career. You know, in the early days, bosses

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Speaker 1: that really wanted to pit the women against each other,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't want us to be friends. They didn't

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Speaker 1: want us to like band together to make demands. And

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Speaker 1: I think about that even you know, back in the day,

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing the you know, whisperings, rumblings whatever that

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Speaker 1: you know, Katie Kurk and Diane Sawyer have a rivalry,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, you did that or was that just

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Speaker 1: the media not understanding that there were two of you?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I've been.

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Speaker 1: Thinking of silly.

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this a lot because you know,

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Speaker 3: they're doing a documentary about Barbara Walters. Yes, and I

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Speaker 3: was talking to the director of the documentary. I think

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Speaker 3: this is so interesting because you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: industries are competitive, and it's okay to be competitive, Like

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Speaker 3: I applaud Barbara and Diane and me and Connie Chung

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Speaker 3: and Peter Jenny's and Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw and

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Speaker 3: all these people who are sort of my generation. They're

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Speaker 3: a little teeny bit older than I am. But you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of you know, if you're a journalist, it

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Speaker 3: is competitive. You know, you want to break the story,

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Speaker 3: you want to get the big interview.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And somehow there's a double standard because the men are

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Speaker 3: very competitive too. But somehow, now when you put women

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Speaker 3: in competitive situations, it's called, you know, a cat fight.

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Speaker 3: There is no commensurate term for men or competitive. And

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Speaker 3: believe you me, Sophia, they are extremely intensely competitive. Yes,

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Speaker 3: so I find it interesting and I don't think, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just I struggle with this and I'm still obviously

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Speaker 3: trying to figure it out. But how can you be

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Speaker 3: competitive and supportive at the same time. It's sometimes difficult,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think we ever have conversations about that

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Speaker 3: women have the added burden of being competitive, trying to

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Speaker 3: get ahead in their own business, but also supporting other

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Speaker 3: people other women. Now, I sometimes wonder do men have

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Speaker 3: that added burden being competitive, and yet they're supposed to

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Speaker 3: support all the people they're competing against. It's somewhat confusing

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 1: I love that you're talking about this, and I think

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Speaker 1: a perfect framing. Honestly, I just did an interview about

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Speaker 1: this yesterday. You know, as one of the owners of

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Speaker 1: Angel City, I talk a lot about women's sports, and

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Speaker 1: I was talking about this because to your point, you Barbara, Diane,

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Speaker 1: Connie Oprah like rare air, top tier women in your field,

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Speaker 1: and the men you mentioned, Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw,

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Speaker 1: those arenas are all competitive, as you say, but the

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Speaker 1: men are able to compete and be professional, ballsy, cutthroat

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Speaker 1: even but women get called rivals. And I'm seeing this

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Speaker 1: really played out because we are experiencing this gorgeous moment

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Speaker 1: where there are so many eyeballs on women's sports. Finally,

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Speaker 1: we're all like, welcome to the party, you're late. But

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Speaker 1: you see these people who clearly have never watched a

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Speaker 1: WNBA game, for example, flipping out that you know, Caitlin

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Speaker 1: Clark got checked on the court and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: they've never these women. They're being vicious, they're jealous of her.

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Speaker 1: She got a shoe contract, And I'm like, do you

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Speaker 1: all know how much less money these women's contracts that

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Speaker 1: are so few and far between are than any of

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Speaker 1: the men's. Like, you're focused on the wrong things. We're

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Speaker 1: still not quite getting to equity. And what it says

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Speaker 1: to me is you didn't look at footage of Stewie's

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Speaker 1: early career, or Candice Parker or Lisa Leslie or any

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Speaker 1: of the women who paved these roads into the w

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Speaker 1: And for some reason, these women that are literally the

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Speaker 1: best female athletes in the country, who are out competing

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Speaker 1: on courts like gladiators, are essentially being told they're being

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Speaker 1: too hard on each other. And it's it's like, they

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Speaker 1: literally play physical sport for a living. What are we doing.

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Speaker 3: I think it's this deep seated gender, gendered perspective that

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Speaker 3: is baked into us from the almost the get go.

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Speaker 3: You know, when we start being socialized, when we start

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Speaker 3: consuming media, when we start you know, receiving these messages

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Speaker 3: and making these connections. There's a professor at Harvard who

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Speaker 3: teaches in the at school, Masarin Banagi. I think I

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Speaker 3: interviewed her for an hour I did on gender inequality

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Speaker 3: in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she was talking about

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Speaker 3: how our brains, when they're extremely new and still developing,

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Speaker 3: we make these associations, you know, so we associate moms

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Speaker 3: with cooking or taking care of the house, and dads

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Speaker 3: with working, and now more moms working. But just sort

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Speaker 3: of these messages on society and gender roles are are

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Speaker 3: are so baked into our almost our every cell of

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Speaker 3: our brains that when we see things that seem antithetical

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Speaker 3: to that kind of socialization, it freaks people out. And

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Speaker 3: so I think seeing women compete in sports is something

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Speaker 3: unbelievably relatively new for a lot of people. And when

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Speaker 3: they see women being tough and as you said, checking

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Speaker 3: and doing all the things that you do when you're

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Speaker 3: a competitive athlete, it almost trips people up in terms

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Speaker 3: of their expectations. So I still think we're we're in

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Speaker 3: a transitional period for opening up so many avenues for

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Speaker 3: women or people of color or and and it it

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Speaker 3: just almost messes with our greatconceptions in a way, if

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Speaker 3: that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And do you think, you know, having had to

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Speaker 1: thread that impossible to thread needle of being the best

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Speaker 1: at what you do and yet somehow never getting in

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Speaker 1: anybody's way, do you think that social media to sort

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Speaker 1: of come back around to the beginning, this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: create this whole new space for yourself to continue your

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Speaker 1: career without having to be, you know, handcuffed to one

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Speaker 1: of the Big three or whatever it may look like

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Speaker 1: in the landscape today. Do you think in a way

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Speaker 1: that helps you undo some of those misconceptions, you can

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Speaker 1: you can be exactly who you are. You can be

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Speaker 1: brilliant and want to watch silly dog videos, and you

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Speaker 1: can talk to people about gender inequality and also some

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Speaker 1: you know, cool new play that you saw. In a way,

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Speaker 1: you get to be more yourself because you can be

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Speaker 1: more of a whole.

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I felt very much free to be who

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Speaker 3: I was when I was at the Today Show, less

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Speaker 3: so when I was doing the CBS Evening News, where

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Speaker 3: I think I had to fit into a much smaller

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Speaker 3: box being a serious, credible news person. And I think

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Speaker 3: I've always been very multi dimensional, you know, I think

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Speaker 3: media it's tempting to well, you know this, Sophia put

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Speaker 3: people in a box like as a type, right, and

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Speaker 3: I think it is very hard or or it was

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Speaker 3: hard for people understand to understand kind of the whole

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Speaker 3: breadth of the person, especially in news, because I think

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Speaker 3: women were trying so hard to be taken seriously and

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Speaker 3: be credible. And I think on the Today Show I

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Speaker 3: was allowed to really let my freak flag fly and

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Speaker 3: be kind of who I was, you know, goofy and fun,

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Speaker 3: but also hard hitting and serious when it was required.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like social media I'm just kind of

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Speaker 3: an extension of that. And what's great for me having

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Speaker 3: my own company and being able to shine a light

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Speaker 3: on various issues and being selective about it. You know,

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of freedom and I don't have

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Speaker 3: to appeal to someone. Can I please do a story

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Speaker 3: on this? Or don't you think we what about a

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Speaker 3: story on this now. I did have a lot of

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Speaker 3: authority when I was at CBS because I was the

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Speaker 3: managing editor and I could say, hey, I want to

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Speaker 3: do a series on dating violence.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It was after Yardly Love, who play Lacross at Uva

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Speaker 3: was beaten to death by her then boyfriend, and I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do it, and I wanted to do more

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Speaker 3: stories where women were at the center of the story.

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Speaker 3: And I was able to do that, and I feel

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Speaker 3: really proud that I was able to do that. But

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Speaker 3: I think for me now, I don't you know, what

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Speaker 3: I don't have to do, which I'm so grateful for,

399
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Speaker 3: is play politics. I don't have to suck up to people,

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Speaker 3: and I don't have to be coy or cute or

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Speaker 3: you know, basically you know, like I like I had

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Speaker 3: to do. For example, at sixty Minutes, there was this

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Speaker 3: whole environment where the people in charge were guys, and

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Speaker 3: I would it was just really hard and that is exhausting,

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Speaker 3: and I'm really not good at it. I'm kind of

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Speaker 3: not a political person. I treat the security guard the

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Speaker 3: same way I treat the CEO, Like it's just not

408
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Speaker 3: in my nature to suck up to people. And I

409
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Speaker 3: just hate when I see people doing that. It's so

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Speaker 3: distasteful to me. And I think that's one of the

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Speaker 3: best things is because you know, it's the company has

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Speaker 3: my name on it and I'm partially running the show

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Speaker 3: along with my husband. That I had the freedom to

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Speaker 3: pursue what I want to pursue without having to kind

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Speaker 3: of beg to do it, or without being disappointed that,

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Speaker 3: you know, my story idea was given to somebody else

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Speaker 3: because the guy in charge didn't like.

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Speaker 1: Me, right, Oh oh the.

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Speaker 2: Worse so annoying.

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Speaker 1: It's so annoying, And I'm with you. I just I

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Speaker 1: don't have that in me. I know people who are

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Speaker 1: very good at playing the game, and they're always networking

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Speaker 1: and they're building relationships and hosting a dinner party with

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Speaker 1: the influentials. So I don't know how they do it.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the energy.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think sometimes, I mean, I think you, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think it depends what you're guided by. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you're guided by what can that person do for me?

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Speaker 2: Is one thing.

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Speaker 3: But if you're guided by, oh, this person is really interesting,

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Speaker 3: has a lot to offer, and I'm curious about what

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Speaker 3: they're doing, and you know, if it comes from that

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Speaker 3: authentic place, yeah, I think it's fine. I think it's

434
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: when there's a power dynamic where you have to you know,

435
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: where you have to be subservient and emphasize your subservience

436
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 3: in order to get in order to be treated a

437
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 3: certain way. That's what I can't do, and I don't

438
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: think you'd be very good at it either.

439
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not. I actually think that's sort of that

440
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: curiosity and the desire to just to just explore it

441
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: with fascinating people is that's what led me to start

442
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: my podcast. I thought, hold on, I can create a

443
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: job where I get to sit for an hour with

444
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: people I absolutely admire and just ask them questions. That

445
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: sounds like the best thing ever.

446
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: You have the best podcast voice on the planet. Oh,

447
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: You're honest, you have the greatest voice.

448
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: I love it. I love how raspy it is.

449
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Well, look who's talking? I mean you

450
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: you your podcast? I love so much for our friends

451
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: at home. Next question with Katie Couric. If somehow you've

452
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: been living under a rock and you haven't heard it

453
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: yet is so stupendous. Did did that feel like a

454
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: natural extension, as you were mentioning earlier, of that fully

455
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: embodied you that you got to be on the Today Show?

456
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: Or or was it something else? Was there some next

457
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: ways of curiosity for you too?

458
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: I think it's just the freedom that a podcast affords

459
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: to you. Know, you can say, gosh, I really want

460
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: to talk to the writers from Hacks. Yeah, you know,

461
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: I mean this is a shameless plug to get them

462
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: to hopefully one of them is listening. You know, I

463
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: don't want to talk to the stars. I want to

464
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: talk to the writers, one of the writers.

465
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: This is absolute kismeth that you said this, because the

466
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: writers of Hacks are two of my oldest friends who

467
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: were my very first roommates in my home, and they

468
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: are now married to each other. And the fact that

469
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: of anyone you could pick, you said those two. I'm

470
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: absolutely going to have my producers clip this little audio

471
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: segment and I'm going to text it to them after this.

472
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: So you got to help a sister out because I

473
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: got you.

474
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: I think they are I love that show. I think

475
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 3: it's so clever. I think writers are so important and

476
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: so underappreciated.

477
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 1: I do you know.

478
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 3: I mean, they're the brains behind the operation. They are

479
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: what makes you know they make brilliant television. So yes, okay, good,

480
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: But anyway, what I was saying is like, I just

481
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: love the fact that now I can't get everyone, Like

482
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: right now, I'm trying to get Joe Biden to do

483
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: an interview with me, both on video and in podcast form,

484
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: and that's the beauty of it, you know, you can

485
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: do kind of iterate the content for different platforms and

486
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: the way people like to consume content. And so far

487
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: they are not they're not saying yes yet. But I

488
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: haven't given up hope. But it's just like wow, I

489
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: you know, this woman wrote a book called sociopath, How

490
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: fascinating she is one, and she went to school to

491
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: learn more about the condition.

492
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: And I'm going to talk to her. So I think

493
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: it's like cue. It just felt like.

494
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: Sublime freedom to be able to talk to whoever you

495
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 3: want in a way that you hope will be instructive

496
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: and entertaining for other people. Right, it can't be completely

497
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: self indulgent, but if you're passionate and interested in someone,

498
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 3: that will show and I think that will make it

499
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: more interesting for the listener.

500
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's

501
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. And I do find it

502
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: in an ever more polarized world that there's something about

503
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: these conversations that can really turn the temperature down and

504
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: remind people that we're all just trying to figure this

505
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: out together.

506
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: I hope, So, you know, I hope so it's it's

507
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: very hard. It's you know, we have become everything has

508
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: become so personal and so full of vitriol and anger

509
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: and grievance that gosh, it's it would be so nice

510
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: to be able to find that common ground between and

511
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: among people where because I do think, I don't know,

512
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: the tribalism is really disconcerting to me, this division that

513
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: exists in our country, and I think people who disagree

514
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 3: with policy should be able to have civil conversations about them.

515
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: I think what's hard is these media ecosystems have created

516
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 3: echo chambers, and I think the worst, the least flexible

517
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: side of us just gets almost calcified by hearing what

518
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: we want to hear over and over and over and

519
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: over again. And I remember I got in trouble on

520
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: Bill Mark because I said after the insurrection that I

521
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: thought some people needed to be deprogrammed, and I got

522
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: roundly criticized by the side that I was saying needed

523
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: to be deprogrammed. But I think kind of we all do,

524
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: We all kind of need to be deep programmed because.

525
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: We're just getting.

526
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 3: You know, reinforced, and our minds are closing to other

527
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: ways of looking at things or at least understanding that

528
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 3: people might look at a situation differently.

529
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: Well, what also really worries me is the refuting of facts.

530
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: You know, while I do believe that the silos are

531
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: bad for everyone, I will say there's only one side

532
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: erecting gallows at the Capitol in Washington, d C. You

533
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: know these The effect of this sort of vitriol and

534
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: violence is I wouldn't say evenly distributed.

535
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know.

536
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: What scares me is that the facts are ceasing to matter.

537
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: You know, I was, as I do because I like

538
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: to post about the news a lot. I was sharing

539
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: about the day that the former president was indicted, you know,

540
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: guilty on all thirty four felony counts. That is an

541
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: unbelievable sentence to utter out loud. And I had someone

542
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: respond to me and say, it's the federal juries are

543
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: all rigged. And it was you know, twelve liberals that

544
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: convicted him. And I'm like, it's not a federal jury.

545
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: This isn't happening at the DOJ. This is happening in

546
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: a state court. And by the way, one of the

547
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: jurors that Donald Trump's defense team handpicked was a woman

548
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: who said she only one gets her news from Truth

549
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: Social She's a huge fan of the former president, and

550
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: she voted guilty on all thirty four counts. Sir, this

551
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: isn't some quote liberal conspiracy. This is the justice system.

552
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: The guy is a criminal, I know, and that's just it.

553
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: It's so troubling when you see these these institutions that

554
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: really are the underpinning of our democracy. Yes, get not

555
00:35:51,719 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 3: even ridiculed, but disrespected and dismantled in a weird way.

556
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: But no, I totally hear you, and yes it is.

557
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 3: It is really really troubling. I think there are people

558
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: on the fringes that have very loud voices and sometimes

559
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 3: drown out people who are in the more sensible middle.

560
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: And more willing to listen to each other.

561
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's a shame. Jonathan, he wrote

562
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: an article in The Atlantic that you probably read, Sophia,

563
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 3: but if you haven't, your listeners should as well call

564
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 3: why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid? And

565
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: it talks about the percentage of people the voices on

566
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 3: social media are really at the ends of the spectrum,

567
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 3: and they take I think they they take up so

568
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 3: much oxygen and an inordinate amount of space that I

569
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 3: think sometimes we get the wrong ession of what most

570
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 3: Americans are thinking and what most Americans believe. So that

571
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: gives me some degree of solace. But but you're right,

572
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: and it's almost like a cancer that you know, people

573
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: start starts repeating this stuff and then it almost becomes

574
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 3: contagious and then impressionable people will then kind of absorb

575
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: that and reflect that back out to the world. And so, yes,

576
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 3: I agree with you one hundred percent.

577
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: Well so going into I mean, you know it is

578
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: as you said, the last ten years, certainly, but this

579
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: year is an election year, and you know, again this

580
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: can kind of be like the beginning right where everything

581
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: feels big and heavy and scary. How how do you

582
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: stay positive and keep your stress in check? Is it

583
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: reminding yourself that there are a lot more of us

584
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: that are willing to listen to each other than the

585
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: folks on the fringes or do you have some wonderful

586
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: secret life hack that you need to tell the rest

587
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: of us about.

588
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I get scared and depressed, I do,

589
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: and anxious, but I am constantly reminded of good people

590
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: out in the world. Honestly, I see people at a

591
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 3: grassroots level doing things for other people. I see people

592
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: teaching migrants from West Africa English in the park. I see,

593
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 3: you know, my friend friends Brian Wallack and Sondra Opraaviyah.

594
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 3: I just executive produced a documentary about them. He's dealing

595
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 3: with als and yet they're changing the face of the

596
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: disease by getting more funding and forming a community of

597
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: people and making a blueprint for others who have so

598
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: called rare diseases.

599
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 2: You know. So I actually maybe I'm.

600
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: Just uh, you know, hardwired for happiness and optimism. But

601
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: I do think that most people are really good people.

602
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: I actually do.

603
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: I think they're really nasty, mean people with the who

604
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 3: are ignorant and.

605
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: You know that.

606
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 3: I think they they're loud, but I do think they're

607
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: in the minority. I think that's what keeps me positive

608
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: for the most part. But I'm honestly, I'm I'm concerned

609
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 3: about our country. I'm concerned about our values. I'm concerned

610
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 3: about our moral compass.

611
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 2: Yes, And.

612
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: It's perplexing to me. I don't know if it's an

613
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: indictment of the media. I don't you know, which has

614
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,479
Speaker 3: become so bifurcated. I think that, you know, I don't

615
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: know whether it's a product of our education system that

616
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 3: isn't emphasizing civics. I don't know if it's a symptom

617
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 3: of loneliness because our community infrastructure just isn't quite what.

618
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: It used to be.

619
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: And perhaps it's social media and iPhones that have made

620
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: people more isolated. And you know, I think people who

621
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 3: say things like what you described in your post or

622
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 3: what I get on a regular basis, would never say

623
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: it to our faces. And you know, I don't know.

624
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 3: I just feel like everybody is just loaded for Bear

625
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: twenty four to seven, and I think it's I think

626
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 3: it's symptomatic of a lot of other societal issues that

627
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: are manifesting in this kind of anger and grievance. I

628
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 3: don't know, what the hell do I know, Sophia.

629
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: Well, I get it, and I think the willingness to

630
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: sort of analyze and ask the questions is incredibly important.

631
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: I think remembering to try to meet people with curiosity

632
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: about why they feel what they feel and perhaps what

633
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: they're afraid of, could be a great path to you know,

634
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: resiliency for us as a community. But I also think

635
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: your perspective on this stuff speaks to your resilience as

636
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: an individual. You know, as Katie, you have managed over

637
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: and over again to you know, throughout your career and

638
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: your personal life, choose optimism and resilience. You've modeled that

639
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: for people in ways that you know, in my own

640
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: relative understanding of what it's like to be a person

641
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: who lives life publicly and sometimes begrudgingly publicly like it's

642
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: not easy. And you have been through such incredible success

643
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: and wins and loss and humanity in your life. I mean,

644
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you built this new company with John,

645
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, your lovely husband, who is such a wonderful

646
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: human And I love the way you smile when people

647
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: talk about him to you, and I love seeing the

648
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: way that the two of you managed to seesaw between

649
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: the personal and professional. You're this beautiful, you know, unit

650
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: you're an inspiring pair. And the world also knows that

651
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: before John came into your life, your first husband, Jay

652
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: passed away. You had to process that loss and his

653
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: illness in public in real time. It I just it

654
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: takes my breath away when I think about it for you,

655
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: and to not only have to go through that, but

656
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: then to courageously and resiliently pursue love after loss, find

657
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: your phase two, your second wave of joy. Like the

658
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: swings that you have experienced as a human being are inspiring,

659
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: but then to do them on the world stage, It's like,

660
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason you can look at

661
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: people and also the planet with such optimism is because

662
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: you've learned that so personally and you reflect it out

663
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: into the world around you.

664
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 3: But I also think that's very sweet of you, by

665
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: the way. I mean, I try, But I also think

666
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 3: maybe what's in short supply is empathy. Yeah, you know,

667
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: like seeking to understand why certain people feel a certain

668
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 3: way and how they have been culturally conditioned. Now, remember

669
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: I did an hour for National Geographic a few years

670
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: ago on all these thorny social issues, and one of

671
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 3: them was on white anxiety, and I really examined changing demographics,

672
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, to have a majority minority population by

673
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: twenty forty four, and obviously much more diversity in this country.

674
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: And I remember talking to some gentlemen and they lived

675
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 3: in a small town in Nebraska, and they were very

676
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: upset that there was like a Mexican Pride Day, and

677
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: you know, their point was, you know, we're from Germany

678
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 3: or we're from Poland originally, but you know, we're Americans first,

679
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: and I think we've seen it anyway. I don't know

680
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 3: why I'm talking about this, but I think it's interesting

681
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 3: because we've seen a real shift in a change from

682
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 3: assimilation right to I think, preserving one's national like identity.

683
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: And as we've become a nation of immigrants, people also

684
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: are gravitating to people in their communities, and there is

685
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: I think less and I'm not making a value judgment

686
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: either way, but less assimilation. So I was trying to

687
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: understand where these people who were upset about the Mexican

688
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: Pride Day or whatever it was, and the people who

689
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: wanted to, you know, be proud of their cultural heritage.

690
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 3: And I just think that change is hard, right, Change

691
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 3: is hard for people. And I think the more we

692
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 3: can talk about change, and the more we let down

693
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: our guard and drop the walls between us, the more

694
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: we can. And I've always felt like Sophia, if you

695
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: understand a problem, then you can fix it. But if

696
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: you don't kind of unravel what's causing the adjuta or

697
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 3: the stress or the anger, then you're not going to

698
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: be able to address it. But so I was trying

699
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: to be empathetic to these people who are like, gosh,

700
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: change is hard.

701
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: You know, this is not how we felt about the country.

702
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 3: And you know, so I think empathy is a really

703
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 3: important component to kind of getting to the bottom of

704
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 3: some of these strong, hard feelings that people are having.

705
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: Sure, and now a word from our sponsors who make

706
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: this show possible. And I think also to be willing

707
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what people underneath that might feel they've lost.

708
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: You know, for example, when my grandmother immigrated through Ellis Island,

709
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, to America from Italy with her parents and

710
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: the rest of her family, you know, times were different.

711
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: You were meant to assimilate my grandmother, forbade my great

712
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: grandparents from teaching my mother Italian once my mom was five.

713
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: It just was not allowed because they needed to be American.

714
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: And so in one generation, my mother lost her language,

715
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, she lost her tether to her heritage.

716
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: Right, and now.

717
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: That is such a source of sadness for my mom

718
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: and for me, But for my grandmother it was imperative.

719
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: But isn't that interesting how you seeing that kind of

720
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: big shift.

721
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: Yes, but I think because we were so lucky we

722
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: have more information than ever. We understand more psychology than ever,

723
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: We have more access to therapy than ever. We I

724
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: believe currently are more capable of holding the dialectics multiple

725
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: truths at the same time. I believe if my grandmother

726
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: were alive today, she would be really inspired to know

727
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to learn Italian. But I can understand

728
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: how if you'd gone back then and you had interviewed

729
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: her in the way that you interviewed these people, she

730
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 1: would have been in a panic because her greatest fear

731
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: was not fitting in. Her greatest fear was the othering

732
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: of her children, the denial of opportunity based on a

733
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: sense of other. And I think it's hard when you

734
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: have been told that unless you assimilate, you will be other,

735
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: and then you get to see people coming behind you

736
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: who get to be both. It's actually probably painful. Your

737
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: anger is probably a mask for the way you feel

738
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: a little bit cheated. And if we could open that dialogue,

739
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: I think it would be I think it would be

740
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: so exciting. Those are the dialogues like if I had

741
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: it my way and I could just hop in like

742
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: an airstream for the next you know. However, many months

743
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: until the election I'd just drive around and talk to people,

744
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: be like, let's have a barbecue and talk like I

745
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: really want to know.

746
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: You should do that. That would be awesome, wouldn't that.

747
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: Be so cool? Yeah, well maybe we'll go together. Well,

748
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 1: let's call let's tell John, let's get the personal hat

749
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 1: on or the professional hat on for your your personal

750
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: professional partnership at home and tell your husband that we

751
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: have a story idea and says you're the boss. We

752
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:18,479
Speaker 1: can probably get it done.

753
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 3: See in a few months, we're going We're getting in

754
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: our airstream and we're going to go for barbecues all

755
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 3: across the country. You know, I honestly feel like a

756
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 3: group of people needs to do that. You know, I

757
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: think it would be it would be amazing. It's interesting

758
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: that you talk about thinking dialectically, because yes, on the

759
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 3: one hand, I think you're right. On the other hand,

760
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 3: I think that has been lost. You know, in this

761
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 3: very binary you have to be four or against. You

762
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 3: have to be pro this or pro that, and that

763
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 3: you can't say yes. And my daughter's twenty is very funny.

764
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: She has this group called the Divas for Dialectical Thinking,

765
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 3: and they meet I think they meet every week and

766
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: they talk about current events, and they've been really focused

767
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 3: on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and talking to

768
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: rabbis and talking to historians and talking to Palestinian scholars

769
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: and really trying to educate themselves. And you know, I

770
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 3: think it is I don't know why everyone, I guess.

771
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: I guess you can feel very strongly, and I'm not

772
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 3: saying you can't, but I think that sometimes we have

773
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 3: to understand and have empathy for both situations and appreciate

774
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: that something can be true. And yes, I don't know

775
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 3: if that's making any sense, but it does. That's sort

776
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 3: of how how I feel. And I guess as a journalist,

777
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 3: I've been trained to try to understand different perspectives, and

778
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: not necessarily. I mean, I do feel strongly about reproductive rights,

779
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: and I feel strongly about stricter gun laws. You know,

780
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 3: there are certain issues I feel comfortable saying I think

781
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 3: I believe this, But I do try to in my

782
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: role give various perspectives to hopefully achieve a deeper understanding

783
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 3: of issues.

784
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: I think that's so incredibly important, and and you know,

785
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: I think you have to. You have to try to

786
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: figure out how these how these things happen and how

787
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: these generational conflicts play out. And really for me, I mean, Isabelle.

788
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: Wilkerson's work Oh Love changed.

789
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: Everything for me understanding you know, the research on cast.

790
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: That she did so the warmth of other sons Oh

791
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: my god, I mean.

792
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: What a book. But really for me beginning to understand,

793
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: for example, the conflict you're referring to in the Middle East,

794
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: to finally have the aha facts of you have two

795
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: populations who have been some of the worst victims of

796
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: caste in the world going through this cyclical, horrible experience

797
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: of you know, back and forth pain and outside influence

798
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: and outside trauma and genocide, and I mean it is

799
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: just it helped me understand. Oh, this is part of

800
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: why this is so hard to solve in a moment,

801
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: because of the way this fluidity of caste has harmed

802
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. And the way she

803
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: explained it that has really burned itself in my brain

804
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: is that if you envision a house, cast is the foundation,

805
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: the terrible foundation of other and willingness to commit violence

806
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: and willingness to harm the other. That every room that

807
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: is an ism or a phobia is built on so sexism, racism, homophobia, classism,

808
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: all all of.

809
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 2: These anti semitism.

810
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: Anti semitism, transphobia, you know, islamophoses, islamophobia, all of it.

811
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: That these isms and phobias are the rooms that are

812
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: the shape shifters of the oppression caused by caste. And

813
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: I went, I finally get it. I have I have

814
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: tried to study for almost twenty years now the interconnectedness

815
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 1: of all of these systems and pull at the thread

816
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: of how this happens to us, Why gender violence exists,

817
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: Why in places where there is environmental devastation, it typically

818
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: makes gender violence worse. Why certain things happen when migration

819
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: or demographics change. And I always I got it. I

820
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: was like, I see this and this and this, I

821
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: see the domino effects. But to understand the floor has

822
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: been such a revolutionary thing for me. And when you

823
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: begin to make space for those dialectics, as you mentioned

824
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: to say, all of this can be wrong, all of

825
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: these things can be true. When you see the exercising

826
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: of the viciousness of cast you go, oh, we have

827
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: so much more work to do. And I feel partially

828
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: again to circle all the way back to the beginning,

829
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: so unbearably lucky despite all its faults, to be in

830
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: this technological era because I get to have this conversation

831
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: with you. At the beginning of season three of this show,

832
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: I got to interview Ava Duverne about turning the Passed

833
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: into Origin the film and learn about how you take

834
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: this brilliant academic work and turn it into the most

835
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: incredible hero's journey story for a woman in a movie.

836
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: I was like, how did you do it? How could

837
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: you have done this? And it's these conversations that have

838
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: shaped my thinking, my presence. And then in a way, Katie,

839
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: when you said, you know, there's so many more of

840
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 1: us willing to listen and meet each other in the middle,

841
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: I believe personally that I've become so much more willing

842
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: to do that personally, professionally, and politically since I started

843
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: doing the show, because I've just gotten to know so

844
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: many people so much better.

845
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: And do you talk to people with whom you violently disagree, Sophia,

846
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 3: because I think, you know, getting back to our upcoming

847
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 3: airstream trip, let's go. You know, I think I think

848
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 3: you can model conversations. I mean, I should do a

849
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 3: better job of this too, with people who think very differently,

850
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 3: and I mean not everyone, because some I think are

851
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: operating in an alternative universe, but to kind of unpack

852
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 3: where someone's coming from beyond sort of the the trump

853
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 3: of it all, but to talk about what lies beneath,

854
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 3: you know, what are some of the pain points and

855
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 3: what are some of the things that may make someone

856
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 3: gravitate towards someone right who maybe we can't understand, but

857
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 3: maybe we would understand, and then in the process of

858
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 3: that understanding be able to address the the you know,

859
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 3: the fundamental is shoes that are kind of separating us,

860
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.

861
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what that makes me think a lot

862
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: about is the conversation we were having earlier about how

863
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: women are expected to compete but also expected to kumbayah

864
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: all the time. And my best friends had something really

865
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: great to me. She was like, no, we advocate for

866
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: women period. We don't associate with women who are unkind

867
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: or disingenuous. And I was like, Ah, that's a big thing.

868
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: You can work toward gender equity, and you can work

869
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: toward closing the lending gap, and you can work toward

870
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: equity and equality as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean

871
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: you have to be friends with every single woman in

872
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: the world, because not everyone's nice man, woman, non binary

873
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: person like you know.

874
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 3: No, I think you're right. I think you're talking sort

875
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 3: of the macro level.

876
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what it is, right, Like this idea

877
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: that you're saying, Yes, do I want to have conversation

878
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: of the people I don't agree with? Like, have I

879
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: through this show become friends with Evan McMullin and Adam

880
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: Kinsinger are like people who most folks who consider themselves

881
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: progressive might not think. I'd be friends with absolutely, and

882
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: I cherish them and their opinions, and I like the

883
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: pushback they'll offer to some of my thinking. Do I

884
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: want to sit down with someone who, you know, tried

885
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: to hang the vice president on January sixth? No? I

886
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: do not. Like That's where I'm going to go ahead

887
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: and probably draw my boundary. Would I like to talk

888
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: to a family member of someone who was there. I would.

889
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: I'd like to know their thinking. You know, I think

890
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: all the time I'm trying to stretch my willingness while

891
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: making sure I'm retaining boundaries. But I don't want my

892
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: boundaries to be rooted in petulance. I want them to

893
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: be about you know, safety and respect, and as you said,

894
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: a at least a willing to agree on facts like

895
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: one plus one does in fact, equal to the sky

896
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: is not green. You know, some basic facts and then

897
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: we can talk about our feelings and our opinions.

898
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

899
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 3: I think part of it is the the media, the

900
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 3: fragmentation of media and who you're listening to and the

901
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 3: information you're getting, and how it's reinforcing a certain perspective

902
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 3: that isn't accurate. You know you mentioned earlier about or

903
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 3: I was talking about how it's been gratifying to see

904
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: more women in important roles and I recently posted this

905
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 3: and I got I saw it on the female quotient.

906
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 3: You know, I was talking about how certain attitudes are

907
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 3: baked in.

908
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna play this for your listener's rule.

909
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: Oh yes, please, Rick.

910
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 4: Talk about the dream gap. It's that girl and their

911
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 4: full potential. The scene started at A five. Girls stop

912
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 4: believing they can be presidents.

913
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 5: Stig thinkers, engineers, CEOs, and the list goes, aren't Why

914
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 5: because one else are regularing to believe?

915
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 4: When my eight seven were more likely to think that

916
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 4: boys are smurdered than us, that's ridiculous. We are three

917
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 4: times less likely to be given a science related toy.

918
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 5: That's sad.

919
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 4: And when our parents are twice as likely to google

920
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 4: is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted?

921
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 2: That's not cool.

922
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 4: We need to see brilliant women being brilliant and see

923
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 4: how they got to where they are to imagine ourselves

924
01:00:54,520 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 4: so what they do, but we can't do it at all. Well, dads, feathers.

925
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 5: And bosses, we need all.

926
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: Of you to help mm the dream gap to all

927
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: of us.

928
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: Oh, I love them, but that's what I was saying.

929
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 3: You know, for all our progress, you know, there are

930
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 3: still these deeply embedded ideas that infiltrate our dreams and

931
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 3: keep them from coming to fruition. And so I think

932
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 3: that's what we need to and that's what I think

933
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 3: people respond to when they see, as you said earlier,

934
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 3: people getting checked on the court, or people you know,

935
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 3: behaving in a certain way. It it doesn't jive with

936
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 3: their preconceived notions. And we have to continue to try

937
01:01:54,960 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 3: to to shatter these myths and these limitations that are

938
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 3: placed on us.

939
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 2: We've gotten very heavy here, Sophie.

940
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: We you know what, for me, it feels inspiring because

941
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: you just said it. It is a myth, and I

942
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: think the more we can disrupt those myths, you know,

943
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: the more we can take that old dusty carpet and

944
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, throw it over the clothesline and whack it

945
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: with a tennis racket, like shake the dust out, change

946
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: it up. It feels I don't know, it feels very

947
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: exciting to me. It feels like part of the work

948
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: of our lifetimes, don't you think?

949
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah?

950
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 3: And I think you know, to your point when you

951
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 3: left school early to go see Oprah, you know, we

952
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 3: have to see more Oprah's and more Diane Sawyer's and

953
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 3: more Intra Neuis and you know, more Billy Jing Kings,

954
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 3: and I could go on and on and on, but

955
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 3: I think the more we see these people what they say,

956
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 3: you know, you can't.

957
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: You can't.

958
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 3: If you can't see her, you can't be her. So

959
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 3: you know, again, I think it's, as you would say, Sophia,

960
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 3: a work in progress.

961
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: There it is. Well, actually, you lead me to my

962
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: very favorite question to ask my guests, Katie, and I'm

963
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: so curious to know now for you after you answered

964
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: it in season one, what feels like you are work

965
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: in progress right now, right here in twenty twenty four.

966
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 3: I think still finding that. I think it's still finding

967
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 3: that balance of doing things that you think are important,

968
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 3: of being useful, of accomplishing things, and also the intangible

969
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 3: things like being a good mom and now grandmother because

970
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 3: my daughter just had a little baby boy, and you know,

971
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 3: being a good friend, spending quality time, not achieving, but

972
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 3: just being. I think that's a constant struggle for me.

973
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 3: I think I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like

974
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 3: to get better. And I don't know why. I feel

975
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 3: like I always have to be productive, and you know,

976
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 3: I don't think that makes necessarily for a joyful life.

977
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 3: If you're feeling so much pressure to produce, yeah, it

978
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 3: takes away time from just being, yeah, enjoying life. So

979
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 3: I would say that's still and I just feel like

980
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 3: I'm very cognizant.

981
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: You know, I'm sixty seven.

982
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 3: I'm on the back nine and although my husband says

983
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 3: I'm really more like on the fourteenth hole, I'm like, thanks, honey.

984
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: Like that, well done, John.

985
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, there's so many things I

986
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 3: still want to do. You know, I'd like to learn Italian.

987
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 3: I'd like to learn how to be a great cook.

988
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 3: I'd like to learn how to do so many things,

989
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 3: and you know, I just don't have time to do

990
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 3: it all. So I think it's being intentional about how

991
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 3: I want to spend my time and with whom doing what.

992
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 3: I still think finding that secret sauce of time allocation

993
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 3: is still something that I'm that I'm working on consciously.

994
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: Well, when you've got any tips and my way, cause

995
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: me too, sister.

996
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a universal problem for people.

997
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but it's nice when you hear that. You

998
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: know your heroes and the people you look up to

999
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 1: are working on it too. You're like, Okay, okay, I'm

1000
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: not that behind. We're all no, we're all kind of

1001
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm so

1002
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: thrilled to have been able to catch up with you today.

1003
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: I love ye, me too, and.

1004
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 3: I so appreciate how how thoughtful you are and how

1005
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 3: eloquent you are. I like language, and I like words,

1006
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 3: and I really love when people express themselves in a

1007
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 3: way that is you know, that's that's in a way

1008
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: that I'm not doing right now, the way that that

1009
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 3: you know is eloquent and almost poetic and expresses exactly

1010
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 3: you know, chooses the right word to express what they're saying.

1011
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 3: I really appreciate and admire that, and I think you

1012
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 3: do that.

1013
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Katie. That means a lot to

1014
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: me coming from you, and I'm so thrilled about everything

1015
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: that's you know coming up. I absolutely love next question.

1016
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: And I know our listeners, all of our whipsmarties out.

1017
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: There will read our newsletter.

1018
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: Oh the newsletter is so good.

1019
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 3: Sign up at Katiecurrek dot com. You know, we have

1020
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 3: so many great writers and journalists working on it every

1021
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 3: day and I'm so I'm so grateful and proud of,

1022
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 3: grateful for and proud of them. And we try to

1023
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 3: we try to help people understand this crazy world. And

1024
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 3: I think we're we're making a big contribution.

1025
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 2: In that department. So and then we have a lot

1026
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: of fun stuff, you know, John has.

1027
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 3: Fathers Day's gift ideas and and you know, so it's

1028
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 3: not all super heavy, but I feel like you can

1029
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 3: really kind of get caught up and understand the world

1030
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 3: so you can move on to living your life if

1031
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 3: you just open our newsletter every morning. And that's sort

1032
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 3: of the goal. You don't want to be the dumb

1033
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 3: one at the water.

1034
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: Cooler, you know, oh God, the horror.

1035
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 3: And thanks for everything you're doing, and I hope I

1036
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:13,439
Speaker 3: get to see you in person soon.

1037
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: All right, my dear, I'll send you a note and

1038
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 1: we'll find a.

1039
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:37,520
Speaker 3: Time that would be awesome. Okay, thank you for today