1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: we're back with our second part in this series we've 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: been doing about the Black Death, which is another name 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: for the big outbreak at the beginning of the second 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: plague pandemic. There have been three major pandemics in world 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: history of of plague caused by the bacterium your Cineya 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: pestis the second one of them is this big one 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: at the in the Late Middle Ages that began in 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: the middle of the fourteenth century and then had these 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: recurrent waves that went on for hundreds of years after that. 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: And so in the last episode we we talked about 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: I guess mostly there we talked about scientific questions about 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: what the causative agent of the plague was, how it spread, 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: and some of the outstanding quests about that. There's still 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot actually that is surprisingly unknown about how exactly 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: these plague pandemics worked, or certainly the older ones before 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: the one in the nineteenth and twentieth century. Yeah, So 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: in this episode we're going to look more at the 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: contemporary response to the Black Death, the fourteenth century response 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: to the Black Death, Well, what we know about, uh, 23 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: the views on disease and illness at the time, and 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: to what extent those were useful or useless against this 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: this onslaught of plague. Now, Rob, I know one of 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: the main reasons that you got interested in doing a 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: series of episodes on the plague was that you were 28 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: interested in religious responses to the plague, like what were 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the religions in the affected communities saying about the plague? 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: And so that's what we've been looking into for this episode, 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: and we'll probably end up doing another one after this. Uh. 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: And this has been a really interesting subject, not only 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: because it is inherently interesting, but actually the historiography of 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: the subject is interesting. Like there's been interesting recent scholarship 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: on the historical analysis of the different religious responses to 36 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: the Black Plague and and how those analyzes have worked 37 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: and to what extent they're accurate. So, uh So the 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: full disclosure, I think when we do start talking about 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: comparative religious responses to the Black Plague, this is something 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: that I think is probably still a matter of debate. 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: This is also, like we were talking about in the 42 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: last episode, not something that's just a settled set of 43 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: facts that are a matter of the history books. Right. 44 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: And then also when we get into stuff like this, 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: a lot of times there are some broad theories about how, okay, 46 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: if you didn't have the Black Death, you wouldn't have 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: had this, or because of the Black Death, this and 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: this occurred, and some of these are very compelling cases. 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: But we also have to remind ourselves that, like, you know, 50 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: this is a complex game of trying to figure out 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: how history comes together, and you know, what causes what? 52 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: So you know, but butterfly wings are flapping all over 53 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: the place. Uh So you know, we have to have 54 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: to remind ourselves that nothing is one certain. But some 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: of these arguments are rather interesting. Well, let's go ahead 56 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: and start here in uh In, in the world of 57 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: Christian Europe at the time, and uh I thought we 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: might begin by just looking at the broader view of 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: illness and ultimately the divine um. Basically, how did people 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: at this time in this region view the cause of disease, 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: What did they think about disease, where do they think 62 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: it came from? And how did they think you should 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: attempt to treat it? And so I thought we might 64 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: run through some of the key ideas here, and some 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: of these we've discussed on the show before, sometimes at length. 66 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: So for starters, there was the idea of the four humors, 67 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: and this was rooted in the work of Hippocrates, that 68 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: an imbalance of the four humors of blood, flim, black bile, 69 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: and yellow bile could result in disease. And this idea 70 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: had been built on by Galen and others. So it 71 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: basically said, you know, to treat illness, one would need 72 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: to rebalance the humors, and there were various ways of 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: doing this. But we know now that this was not correct, 74 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: and this is in fact one of the um the 75 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: main lines of thinking leading to a major treatment of 76 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages and and beyond, which is the treatment 77 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: of blood letting, or actually not just blood letting, blood letting, 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: various purging procedures that would try to purge people of 79 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: excess fluids within the body when some when it was 80 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: thought that their humors were out of balance. So if 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: you you know, you had too much blood in the 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: body and maybe that's leading to uh, I don't recall exactly, 83 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: maybe a fever or something like that. I could have 84 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: that wrong. What they thought led to what but you 85 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: could you could alleviate that by putting, you know, punching 86 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: a hole in the body and allowing excess blood to 87 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: run out, right now, Next, there was the there was 88 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: the idea that illness spread via bad air, and this 89 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: was me asthma theory, which we've definitely discussed on the 90 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: show before. Uh. This also had been advanced by Hippocrates. 91 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: So again an idea rooted in in in classical thought 92 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: and some of the you know what, we're considered the 93 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: best ideas concerning the natural world of the time. Um. So, 94 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: as we've discussed on the show before, the notion of 95 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: bad and foul air being the thing that allows disease 96 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: to travel and infect. That would mean therefore the removal 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: of bad air, or the positioning of yourself further from 98 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: bad air, would be a way to prevent or combat illness. Now, 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, this approach can work accidentally in some cases. 100 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: But again, this one too is not correct. Yeah, so 101 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: we've actually done at least one whole episode on miasma 102 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: theory before, maybe multiple episodes, So if you go into 103 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: the back catalog you can probably find that somewhere. Um. 104 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,559 Speaker 1: But but Yeah, miasma theory is very interesting, especially because 105 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: it's it's mechanisms are not always easy to nail down. 106 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's generally the idea that there's something in 107 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: the air, often a foul smelling air or some kind 108 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: of bad air or bad vapor, that that could have 109 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: a number of proximate causes of its own. It may 110 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: be air that is caused by a conjunction of the 111 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: planets or something, or it might be released from deep 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: in the earth during an earthquake, and all of these 113 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: things might ultimately be something you could trace back to 114 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: a supernatural cause. As many people in Christian Europe would 115 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: they would say, you know, well, here are the proximate causes. 116 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: It's bad air, that would say, released by the planets, 117 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: are released by an earthquake. But ultimately it's God. It's 118 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: God is punishing us, and we'll come back to the 119 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: theological interpretations. In a moment, I was reading a work 120 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: by a historian named Michael W. Doles who lived nineteen 121 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: forty two to nineteen eighty nine, who was a historian 122 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: of medicine and historian to the Middle East. He published 123 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: a book called The Black Death in the Middle East 124 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven, I think it was actually his 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: doctoral assertation, but he's a widely cited scholar on this 126 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: subject who and also I want to come back either 127 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: in this episode or in the next episode with more 128 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: recent scholarship that has offered some some critiques of of 129 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: doles as generalizations about about religious responses to the plague. 130 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: So this it's not just like what he says goes 131 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: for all time. But in an essay I was reading 132 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: called the Comparative Communal Responses to the Black Death and 133 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: Muslim and Christian Society is published in the seventies. Uh, 134 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: he's writing before he gets into the religious responses, he's 135 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: writing about the dominant mechanistic theories of plague transmission within 136 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: both Christian and Muslim societies. And he writes that both 137 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: of these societies tended to have this same dominant mechanical 138 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: theory of the spread of plague, so both of them 139 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: were largely working from miasma theory, like you're talking about 140 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: the idea that plague is caused by bad air. And 141 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: this is because communities of of both religions were largely 142 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: drawing on the same medical traditions like you mentioned hippocerty 143 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: ease the elaboration on Hippocrates by Galen, but then also 144 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: even sina Or also known as Avicenna, and as a 145 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: result of the belief in miasma theory, a common preventative 146 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: to infection under this theory is what might be called 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: changing the air. And so this could have this could 148 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: have interpretations that would actually be useful even though the 149 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: theory is wrong, and could have interpretations that would be 150 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: completely useless. So it might mean, say, getting out of 151 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: the area where the bad air is. You know, you're 152 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: changing the air by changing your location. So if everybody 153 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: around you is getting infected, that probably means there's some 154 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: bad air around and you need to get away from it, 155 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: so you could flee. But then also it could mean 156 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: something like sweetening the air. This was a common practice 157 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: of infusing the air you breathe with pleasant sense, like 158 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: herbs or flowers or fresh fruits. And so when you 159 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: see those plague doctor masks like we talked about in 160 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: the in the previous episode, that they might have a 161 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: beak or some kind of protuberance coming from where the 162 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: mouth and the nose would be. That presumably the person 163 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: wearing the mask is breathing through not having a journey 164 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: theory of disease. They were not thinking about trying to 165 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: filter out droplets bearing viral particles. Instead, they were thinking 166 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: about filtering the air coming into your mouth and nose 167 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: with sweet smells. So those protuberances in the mask would 168 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: often be stuffed with herbs or or something like that. 169 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: Right and then and then, I think in at least 170 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: in some cases, the idea too was that there was 171 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: still an opening right next to either nostril so um, 172 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: so that there were a number of problems with that design, 173 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: which again, to be clear, was not would not have 174 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: been in in in use during this time period. It 175 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: would have come centuries later, and there's still some dispute 176 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: as to house widespread they actually were. But despite the 177 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: fact that they come later and they they might not 178 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: have been as widespread as you might get an impression, uh, 179 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: they still do reflect the dominant thinking of out the 180 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: mechanistic causes of disease transmission at the time. UH. And 181 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: it's understandable because you basically have a learned system here 182 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: that matches up closely with some of our natural responses 183 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: to say, revolting or alarming smells. You know we like 184 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: basically aligns up with some of our body's natural defenses 185 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: against potentially poisonous or infectious agents, right, I mean, so 186 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: we have natural disgust reactions that are almost certainly evolved 187 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: to protect us from infectious disease. Like why is it 188 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: that we tend to find the body fluids of of 189 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: other people and animals revolting and like we want to 190 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: get away from them as probably because that is an 191 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: evolved response. An animal that happens to be disgusted by 192 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: body fluids and stays away from them is less likely 193 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: to contract an infectious disease. So that's also an area 194 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: in which even though the person who has this disgusted 195 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: reaction might not understand the mechanisms that, oh, tiny organisms 196 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: might get into my body and then start colonizing and 197 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: infecting me. Uh, the the intuition provided by the disgusted 198 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: reaction is itself protective, even though you you might you 199 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't understand the reason why. But anyway, coming back to 200 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: the other half of it, So another way of changing 201 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: the air is to change your location. Right, So if 202 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: you get away from where you perceive there to be 203 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: a cloud of mi asthma, you might also be getting 204 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: yourself away from real vectors of disease, which could be 205 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: a number of things when we talked about different theories 206 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: of this in the last episode, but you could be 207 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: getting yourself away from host populations of infected animals like 208 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: commence al rodents which are carrying fleas which would deliver 209 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: the infectious bite, or away from infected people who could 210 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: possibly be spreading the disease directly, either through droplets that 211 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: they're coughing out leaving the nose and mouth if they 212 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: have pneumonic plague and infection of the lungs, or getting 213 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: away from infected people who are transmitting plague to other 214 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: people through they're human ectoparasites, which is a finding of 215 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: a recent study we we talked about, I think it 216 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: was from eighteen or so that that said the the 217 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: for a number of plague outbreaks, it looks like the 218 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: best explanatory model for how the plague spreads is if 219 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: it's being spread person to person through things like human 220 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: lice and human fleas. But in any case, getting away 221 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: from where plague is is an effective method of protecting 222 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: yourself no matter which of these vectors is the dominant 223 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: one than Now from this point we get into some 224 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: of the more supernatural causes, and we can certainly lump 225 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: these all together and just say all right, supernatural causes 226 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: of the of the disease, of the plague, or we 227 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: can divide them up into a few different categories. On 228 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: one hand, I think we can easily state that the 229 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: supernatural is never the cause of an illness and therefore 230 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: buying large supernatural solutions are not going to work. Um. 231 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: But it roughly speaking, I think we can look at 232 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: three different categories and we can discuss them from there. So, 233 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: first of all, there's the supernatural individual level, so disease 234 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: as a result of sin, like individual sin, a punishment 235 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: for sin, or a test administrated by supernatural forces. Uh, 236 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: generally we're talking about God or an agent of God. 237 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Medieval thinking tended to limit the extent to which demons 238 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: could actually mess with flesh. This is something that was 239 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: discussed in the had been discussed in the works of Aristotle, 240 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: and Thomas Aquinas had laid in on this. So there 241 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: are certain limits, like the idea that that the devil 242 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: could not turn you into an animal, because that would 243 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: that would be in defiance of natural law. But other 244 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: things were permitted, so you can kind of it gets 245 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: into kind of a messy theological area. Um. But so 246 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: for the most part, when people were looking for a 247 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: cause of the plague, they were not looking to Hell. 248 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: They were looking to Heaven. Yeah. From everything I've been reading, 249 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: this was especially the the overwhelming, uh, supernatural explanation used 250 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: throughout Christian Europe at the time was that that disease, 251 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: especially plague, is in some way a punishment for sin, 252 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: and it often an individual punishment for sin. Uh. And 253 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: of course this could give rise to all kinds of 254 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: the Odyssey type questions right where the Odyssey, of course, 255 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: being the the subject of believers trying to justify the 256 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: ways of God to man. Uh. This could give rise 257 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: to questions like, well, why would innocent children uh be 258 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: catch this disease? You know, they're too young, um to 259 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: to be culpable for sin in the same way adults are. 260 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: And and this was addressed in numerous ways. Some people 261 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: might say, well, it's actually their parents are being punished 262 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: for their sin or uh, you know, and the saying 263 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: that the children will get to go to heaven their 264 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: parents are being punished, or it might be said that 265 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: the children h have disobeyed the commandments to honor thy 266 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: father and mother. So there by being disobedient to their parents, 267 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: they are actually being punished. But yeah, supernatural punishment seems 268 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: to have been an overwhelmingly common interpretation, especially within Christian Europe. 269 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: I do want to add a caveat though about like 270 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: the limited powers of of demonic forces, is that you're 271 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: going to also encounter exceptions to that rule, certainly when 272 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: you're dealing with individual surviving folkloric and mythological ideas. Um. 273 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: But but this is just sort of by and large 274 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: like what the what the how the learned members of 275 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: society would have interpreted the problem. Now, an extension of 276 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: the supernatural individual category is the supernatural group category, which 277 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: were already discussing a little bit here. This is the 278 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: same as previously uh explained, but roughly applied to an 279 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: entire city and entire people or culture, and generally limited 280 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: to you know, the judgment of divine forces. Again, so 281 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: there's something something is wrong in our culture, or in 282 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: our church, or in our kingdom and or in our 283 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: world entirely, we've fallen at ray, and therefore the Almighty 284 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: is punishing us. And then another category and this kind 285 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: of gets down to a lot of the like I say, 286 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: this sort of ground level folkloric um ideas, the idea 287 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: that witchcraft and magic were involved. This is something encountered 288 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: in cultures around the world generally, the idea of that 289 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: disease may be caused by others practicing magic against you. Um. 290 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: This generates ideas concerning whiches and sorcerers, but also leads 291 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: to all manner of mothering and the persecution in response 292 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: to illness. Something bad is happening to us. Illness is here, 293 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: someone is responsible, and we have to do something about it. Yeah. 294 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: And as as you allude to, and as anyone might 295 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: guess that this particular interpretation kind of really disastrous consequences. Yeah. 296 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: So again, none of these understandings of disease are are 297 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: actually valid, and none of them are really going to work. 298 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: Certainly some of them they seem to work, and then 299 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: they seem to work in certain cases with other illnes 300 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: us is. But then here comes the Black Death with 301 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: just staggering mortality rates. Uh. We got into this a 302 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: bit in the last episode, but I mean, in the 303 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: numbers are going to vary, but I've seen like a 304 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: rough thirty to seventy five percent mortality rate for plague. 305 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: I've seen bubonic with an eight percent mortality rate during 306 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: this time, and I've seen uh, the other varieties of 307 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: plague with you know, upwards of ninety to a hundred 308 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: percent of mortality. So it's uh, you know, staggering numbers 309 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: to consider. Yeah, with pneumonic or septo semic plagues, the 310 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: other two versions, and again they're they're all caused by 311 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: the same bacterium. It's all your cine epestis. It's just 312 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: about how the body gets infected Soneumonic is infection of 313 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: the lung tissue, like if either bubonic plague progresses to 314 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: a lung infection or if you inhale the bacterium directly 315 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: and it gives you a primary lung infection, that'sneumonic plague. 316 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 1: Septo semic plague is infection of the blood stream with 317 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: the your cine epestis. And either way, uh yeah, these 318 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: are just absolutely devas dating like without without very quick 319 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: antibiotic treatments. And and I do think it's important to 320 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: stress that even in the modern world, with these versions 321 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: of plague, you've got to catch it early with the 322 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: antibiotics to be effective because these uh, these forms of 323 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: the disease can progress shockingly rapidly. There there are stories 324 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: from the Middle Ages of uh, you know, people people 325 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: going to bed seemingly okay and then just being dead 326 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: by the next morning. It's a shockingly rapid progression. And uh. 327 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, the the mortality rates without early antibiotic intervention 328 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: or somewhere near a hundred percent. Now, some of the 329 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: prevention and treatment practices of the day were certainly in 330 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: line with the four humors and the miasma theory um 331 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: on the later front, and one of the most consequence 332 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: real views was that again one could just simply move 333 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: from an area with bad air to one with better air. 334 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: But all of this was more prevalent in the early 335 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: days of the Black Death um. As it progressed, you 336 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: saw more of a turning to potential religious cures and 337 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: religious treatments religious responses to the plague. Yeah, because if 338 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: you are following this view in in Christian that's very 339 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: common in Christian Europe, that the plague is being caused 340 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: by sin and it is a punishment for sin, then 341 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: you would think that the primary way of alleviating it 342 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: would be doing something about the underlying cause, doing something 343 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: about the state of sin that you're in, and trying 344 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: to fix that in order to get God to relent 345 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: with the disaster. Yeah, and so I like the most 346 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: obvious treatment here is Okay, if if God has allowed 347 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: this to happen or cause this to happen, I need 348 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: to get on the phone with God. And I do 349 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: have a way, I have a direct line. I can pray, 350 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: we can all pray. And so that was one method 351 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: turned to prayer, prayer to God, and various other other 352 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: religious approaches come into play. To hear the use of 353 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: ambulence and charms as a means of of aiding prayer 354 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: or as as a means of hecting against plague, even 355 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: as the idea that some form of contagion was taking place, 356 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: like the idea that it was that that they became 357 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: apparent that something was happening, it was somehow spreading from 358 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: person to person. Even if you got into this view, 359 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: there was still the idea, well, an amulet can stand 360 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: between me and that it can be the thing that 361 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: protects me. Um And when this didn't appear to work, 362 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: we can certainly understand why more extreme methods were then 363 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: explored like, if prayer doesn't work and amulets are not working, 364 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: then maybe I'm not trying hard enough, and therefore God 365 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: is still not removing this plague from my shoulders. And 366 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: here you get into some of the most interesting theological 367 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: reasoning that that appeared in Christian Europe in response to 368 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: the plague, which is picking up on on pre existing 369 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: ideas about the powers of the mortification of the flesh. Yes, 370 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: the various flagulent groups for example, Um, you've probably seen 371 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: art and uh you know, and you've seen paintings depicting 372 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: these individuals before, often people in white clothing UM, going 373 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: making like minor parades through the streets, whipping or flailing oneself, 374 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: drawing blood from one's back, thus staining the white garments 375 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: that you're wearing. UM as an act of penance. UM. 376 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about these is that these groups 377 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: practicing the mortification of the flesh in public rituals as 378 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: a means of of seeking penance during times of great 379 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: suffering and fear. These existed prior to the Black Death. UM. 380 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: You find these during the thirteenth century, and during the 381 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: thirteenth century they had already reached the point of heresy 382 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: or the charge of heresy by the church, as it 383 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: became a sort of grassroots means of removing one's sin effectively, 384 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: or or at least to the powers that be, seeming 385 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: to come dangerously close to cutting the power of the 386 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: Church out of the equation, because what do you need 387 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: church for when the power to remove sins resides in 388 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: your own hands and your own flails um Even more 389 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: so when this idea generates that merely witnessing a progression 390 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: of flagelens through the streets can remove your sins. If 391 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: you're trying to picture a procession, a flagulent procession, people 392 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: moving in formation through the streets punishing their own bodies 393 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: in order to enact the mortification of the flesh. And 394 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: and by the way, the mortification of the flesh, I 395 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: mean these people did point to sort of passages in 396 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: the Bible that could be interpreted as giving them license 397 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: to to enact this kind of spiritual dealing where the 398 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, punishing the body or denying the body pleasure 399 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: and inflicting pain on the body could in some way 400 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: purify you in the eyes of God. Like there, uh, 401 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's there are passages in like the Book 402 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: of Romans, where where the apostle Paul writes that for 403 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: if you live after the flesh, you shall die. But 404 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: if you live through the spirit, and through the spirit 405 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: do mortify the deeds of your body, you will live. Yeah, 406 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: and and ultimately the mortification of the flesh. Um, you know, 407 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: flagulent rights and so forth. It gets kind of it 408 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: gets really complicated. I think we've looked into the some 409 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: past episodes of the show, because you know, you're dealing 410 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: with with with with the pain and pleasure network of 411 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: the brain. Um, you're dealing with with complex you know, 412 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: mythic histories of suffering and the meaning of suffering, and 413 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: so we see rights of this nature in religions around 414 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: the world. It's it's it's nothing that's you know, completely 415 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: isolated to these movements we're discussing here. Yeah, that's right. Oh, 416 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: but I forgot sorry, I forgot to complete the thought 417 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: I started a moment ago. I was going to mention. 418 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: I was going to mention that flagelent groups and flagulent 419 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: processions of the Middle Ages are parodied, uh, to to 420 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: great effect in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Do 421 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: you remember the part where the monks the brotherhood. They're 422 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: walking through the streets and beating their own faces with 423 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: the wooden boards. Yep, yeah, that's that's there's a lot 424 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: of I mean those guys, especially with Terry Jones. Uh, 425 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, they were very well read on on medieval thought, 426 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: so uh yeah, it's it makes sense that we would 427 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: find such a great parody there. But certainly, yeah, to 428 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: get back to the point here, like these groups who 429 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: are around this line of thinking already existed, and during 430 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century, the Black Death stirred this reaction again 431 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: for for obvious recent reasons, and so the practice surged, 432 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: and the practice even peaked during this time. Um uh, 433 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: you know, people were realizing these other forms of prayer 434 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: and religious right, we're not working. What is the next level? 435 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: We should take things too, well, maybe we should take 436 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: to the streets like this. Yeah, I do think it's 437 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: interesting that the mortification of the flesh idea took on 438 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: this public display. Uh. And I'm sure it wasn't always 439 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: a public display, but like, why why in the cases 440 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: of the people who led these procession ends in the streets, 441 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: was it not enough just to mortify your flesh or 442 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: punish your body in private? Why did you need to 443 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: do it as a group in public? What was that 444 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: accomplishing specifically? And I don't know the answer to that question. 445 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: You know, it probably gets into some of what we 446 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: discussed in our Tears episodes. You know that it's it's 447 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: one thing to have an emotional outpouring that is individual 448 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: or in or in a case of a you know, 449 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: sort of religious situation, a one on one communication with God. 450 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: But if it is public and communal, then it takes 451 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: on a different power. Now, there's an important distinction to 452 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: be made here between just the practice and the movement 453 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: of of of the flagelence here, because just the mere 454 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: practice of the mortification of the flesh was largely considered 455 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: an accepted form of penance within the church. But then 456 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: when we talk about the movement, we're talking about something 457 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: that is sometimes described as a man that ultimately was 458 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: beyond the control of the church. And that's where we 459 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: see the crackdown on groups such as these UH and 460 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: also sometimes those crackdowns were rolled up in the persecution 461 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: of other heresies. Yeah, that's right, because a number of 462 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: things could count as supposed mortification of the flesh, and 463 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: these would be all kinds of things you hear about. 464 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: You know, Christians in the Middle Ages doing in a 465 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: totally sanctioned way all the time, like fasting is a 466 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: friend of mortification of the flesh. You are denying yourself 467 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: fleshly carnal pleasures in in terms of food or whatever, 468 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: or even just um assuming poses that are uncomfortable for 469 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: long periods of time as a way of turning your 470 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: mind to God, like kneeling for long periods or something. 471 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: But you're making the distinction that that in the in 472 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, there arose these movements that were sort 473 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: of organized and highly devoted to the flagellent practice, and 474 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: these were sometimes condemned and seen as troublemakers by the 475 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: church authorities. Right, and you can you know, it ultimately 476 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: gets to know complex area because you can say, well, okay, 477 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: if the church believes that they have the path to salvation, 478 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: it's their job to keep people from altering the recipe 479 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: to the point where it's no longer producing the desired 480 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: results or you know, causing greater harm um. But then 481 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: on the other hand, you know, it's it is also 482 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: about power. You know, if if if a group has 483 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: determined that it is that it has reached the point 484 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: where it is limiting the power of the church. Though 485 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: then it's it becomes a threat to the church. Right. Yeah. 486 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: But another thing we should, of course say is that 487 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: the threats represented by these flagulent groups, it was not 488 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: just a threat to the authority of the church structure. 489 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: They were also doing very bad things in some cases, 490 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: like there were cases where flagellent groups were involved in, say, 491 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: the persecution of minority groups within the communities, right and 492 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: and yeah, and that's where we get to another huge 493 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: area that comes out of the religious response to the 494 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: Black Death, um, the persecution of minority groups, including the 495 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: the persecution of Jewish communities. So Jewish communities were often 496 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: had often been the target of let's say, blood libel 497 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: and accusations of various crimes and events. Um. And in 498 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: response to the Black Death, there were vile accusations that 499 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: the plague outbreaks were due to Jewish people poisoning wells. Now, certainly, 500 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: well poisoning has been used as a weapon of war, 501 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: had been used since in war and conflict since very 502 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: ancient times. We see accounts of it being used by 503 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: the Assyrians and others. But there was no well poisoning 504 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: going on here, and it's it's not it's not even 505 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: how this particular illness would have readily spread. Right. Uh, 506 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: there's an interesting article that I was reading about about 507 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: some of this, Peter Schwarzstein's The History of Poisoning of 508 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: the Well in Smithsonian, which gets into this larger trend 509 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: like how far back does this go, especially in ancient 510 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: you know, Mesopotamian conflict. But the author also gets into 511 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: these accusations of well poisoning a little bit during the 512 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: Black Death. I also found a very good ride up 513 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: on specifically the the anti Semitic activities during the Black 514 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: Death on Jewish history dot org that has a has 515 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: a good write up. Now, it should be stated that 516 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: this was not the first time in history there had 517 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: been anti Jewish persecution in Europe, but this was you 518 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: know that that was a long tradition, going back in 519 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: many ways to the early days of the Church. Um. 520 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: But this was a big spike in it. Yeah, absolutely, 521 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: um and and and so that that line of behavior, 522 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: that line of of lashing out with hatred against um, 523 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: against the Jewish people and other minority communities. Uh, like, 524 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: that was already established. So then comes to the Black Death. Uh, 525 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: these other religious options were kind of explored and in 526 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: some cases eventually exhausted, you know, asking yourself, well, why 527 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: are we being punished? Is it because of a failure 528 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: in the Crusades, is it rampants sin, is it probably 529 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: problems in the church, etcetera. Uh So, yeah, they end 530 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: up turning them to these Jewish communities, and the idea 531 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: of mass poisoning um by Jewish communities was something that 532 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: had already been raised in previous persecution UH efforts, sometimes 533 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: with lepers thrown into the accusation as well. You know, 534 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: so it gets into this whole conspiracy based illogical territory 535 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: of like, you know, the Jewish people and and lepers 536 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: working together to poison us and create disease. And as 537 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: a Shortstein points out in his article, this was already happening, 538 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, before the Black Death, in response to a 539 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: lot of water borne illnesses, for example. But then the 540 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Black Death gave it new life, and so you saw 541 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: regulations put in place and in UH cities like Vienna 542 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: where Jewish people were banned from consuming food, h and 543 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: drink that was intended for Christians. And this madness basically 544 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: continue till the fifteenth century, and along the way we 545 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: saw the persecution and the slaughter of Jews, the Roman 546 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: the Roman people, as well other minority groups. Pope Clement 547 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: the six Um actually outlawed it in an attempt to 548 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: protect Jewish communities, but uh, that only worked so much. 549 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the horrible acts of expulsion and genocide continued. 550 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: So one of the again the really interesting things about 551 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: all of this is that again none of these religion 552 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: based attempts to thwart the plague really worked. And to 553 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: a large extent, the Church of the fourteenth century was 554 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: just met with this terrible test um and they failed. 555 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: People turned to the Church and it was unable to help. 556 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: Unable to help in the larger sense of preventing the illness, 557 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: but even the smaller instances of providing a framework for 558 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: the suffering. Uh. There was a lot of pessimism during 559 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: this period toward the powers that be, and you can 560 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: read accounts of say, churchmen not interacting with the lay 561 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: people out of fear of death, and that included say, 562 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: like last rites for the dying. So there was this 563 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: idea that the church was for aking people, just as 564 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: people were forsaking each other. In the wake of this illness. H. Yeah, 565 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: there's actually interesting debate from the time period about about 566 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: what is the appropriate course of action for for Christians 567 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: and for the clergy in reaction to the plague. Like, 568 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: like a big question was should you flee the plague 569 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: or not? Or should you stay? Should you flee or 570 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: should you stay to help your Christian brethren? And actually, 571 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: like there's a whole Martin Luther essay where he talks 572 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: about the this this debate, this argument about whether you 573 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: should whether you have a duty to stay, or whether 574 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: you should you should flee. Yeah. And now this is 575 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: not to say that that everyone up just outright abandoned Christianity, 576 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: but there was there was an increased turning away from 577 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: the church in search of quote, a different understanding of 578 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: the Christian message and walk of faith. This according to 579 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: Joshua J. Mark, who wrote about it in in These 580 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: Religious Responses to the Black Death. Uh. This you also 581 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: get into this argument that ultimately this kind of religious 582 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: crisis uh in Europe kind of laid the groundwork for 583 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: the Protestant Reformation of later centuries. Yeah. Martin Luther's famous 584 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: theses were published in the early sixteenth century. I believe 585 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: like the fifteen teens at some point. And uh, and 586 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: of course you know, at the time, in the centuries 587 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: following the Black Death itself in the fourteenth century, there 588 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: were still recurrent waves of plague popping up here and 589 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: there throughout Europe. So it wasn't like the plague went 590 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: away after the Black Death, as we've talked about, the 591 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: plague continued to be an ongoing issue for the centuries 592 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: that followed. Yeah. Absolutely. Now I want to come back 593 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: to very briefly to one of the sources I I 594 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: cited last time, Uh, the Anthropology of Plague by Sharon 595 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: in de Witt, published in Pandemic Disease in the Medieval World. 596 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: From so, as the author points out, the Black Death 597 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: initiated or accelerated social, demographic, and economic changes throughout the region. Uh. 598 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: So there there are changes that were already in motion 599 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: to some degree, but the Black Death arguably sped them 600 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: up and made them more urgent, more actionable, etcetera. Though 601 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: again that we get into this this very difficult to 602 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: m to hammer out area of trying to imagine what 603 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: the future would have been like had something not occurred, 604 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: Like what would what was the trajectory of of religion 605 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: in Europe um and and how would an absence of 606 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: plague have affected that trajectory, Because even if you took 607 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: plague out of the scenario, you still had famine, you 608 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: still had war, you still had people suffering and living 609 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: this um you know often you know, degraded standard of 610 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: living within a feudal system. So all of those elements 611 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: were still in place. All of those elements were already uh, 612 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 1: you know, pushing some of the changes to come. So 613 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's difficult to tease it all 614 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: apart and and try and figure out what would have 615 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: happened had the plague not happened, and if not this plague, 616 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: I mean, potentially some other plague. It's not like this 617 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: was the only illness affecting the people of Europe during 618 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: these centuries. And as as we've mentioned previously, of course, 619 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: it's important to keep in mind that despite the sort 620 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: of Eurocentric dominance of the historical analyzes of the of 621 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: the plague that exists, the the Second Plague pandemic did 622 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: not only affect Christian Europe, I mean, it affected large 623 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: portions of the world, affected Europe, Africa, and Asia. And 624 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: so another really interesting area of study is looking at 625 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: Islamic societies and and how they reacted to the plague 626 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: in their own ways. Now, as I've mentioned several times, 627 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,399 Speaker 1: this is an area that seems somewhat complicated, because, much 628 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: like the scientific history of the plague pandemic itself, the 629 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: subject of the Islamic religious response to plague has I 630 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: think undergone some recent revision and re examination. Um looking 631 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: at the time, I think we maybe do need to 632 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: save most of this discussion for the next episode. But 633 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: just as a hint of things to come, I did 634 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: want to read a passage that I found really haunting. 635 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: This was cited in again that essay I mentioned earlier 636 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: by Michael W. Doles from the seventies UH and so 637 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: Doles is pointing out that while the majority of historical scholarship, 638 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: especially at the time he was writing, but probably still 639 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: the majority of scholarship on the Second Plague pandemic, has 640 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: focused on its effects on Europe, it was also extremely 641 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: destructive and historically significant in the Muslim world at the time, 642 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: including in the Middle East, in North Africa and Andalusia 643 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: and so forth. And UH to describe this state of affairs, 644 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: Dolls quotes from a fourteenth century Arab Muslim historian and 645 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: philosopher named even Caldoon. Uh. Even Caldoon is a very 646 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: important intellectual of the Middle Ages who did work that 647 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: I think could be seen as a pre cursor to 648 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: many of the social sciences. So he did work sort 649 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: of examining different uh you know, things that might be 650 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: considered sociology later. And he tried to do sort of 651 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: political analysis of the course of empires and and and 652 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: uh in their economic histories and things like this. But 653 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: he also wrote about the plague that was taking place 654 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: during his own lifetime. And so I want to read 655 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: a passage that's translated here by Rosenthal. Even Caldoon rights 656 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: in the middle of the eighth century, and that would 657 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: be the eighth century by the calendar he was working with. 658 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 1: We as what we've been referring to as the fourteenth century, 659 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: civilization in the East and West was visited by a 660 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: destructive plague which devastated nations and caused populations to vanish. 661 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: It swallowed up many of the good things of civilization 662 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: and wiped them out. It overtook the dynasties at the 663 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: time of their sinility, when they had reached the limit 664 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: of their duration. It lessened their power and curtailed their influence. 665 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: It weakened their authority, their situation a pro the point 666 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: of annihilation and dissolution. Civilization decreased with the decrease of mankind. 667 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: Cities and buildings were laid, waste, roads and way signs 668 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: were obliterated. Settlements and mansions became empty, Dynasties and tribes 669 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: grew weak. The entire inhabited world changed. The East, it seems, 670 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: was similarly visited, though in accordance with and in proportion 671 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: to its civilization. The author gives a note that's, according 672 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: to Caldoun's estimation, the East's more affluent civilization, and then 673 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: he finishes by writing, it was as if the voice 674 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: of existence in the world had called out for oblivion 675 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: and restriction in the world had responded to its call. 676 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: What a harrowing piece of writing. That is amazing. Yeah, 677 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: that that gave me goose bumps a little bit there. 678 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: And then really it drives home so many of the 679 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 1: points we've been we've been making, or that have been 680 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: made in the sources we've been siting here. Yeah, uh, 681 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: and and Doles actually fills in that even Caldoon himself, law, 682 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: his parents, and a number of his teachers uh to 683 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: the Black Death. He I think he was living in 684 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: Tunis at the time, in modern day Tunisia, but he 685 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: dwelled in North Africa at the time, and of course 686 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: it was affected, just like the the other side of 687 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean was. All right. Well, on that note, we're 688 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: gonna go and close out this part two, but we'll 689 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: be back with part three next week, I believe on Tuesday, 690 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: so stay tuned for that. In the meantime, if you 691 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to 692 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, you'll find him in the Stuff to 693 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed We have core episodes on 694 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener Mail on Mondays, Artifact on Wednesdays. 695 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: On Friday we do a little weird House Cinema. That's 696 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: our time to just mostly discuss a weird movie. And 697 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: on the weekends we run a vault episode, which is 698 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: a fancy way of saying we do a rerun. Huge 699 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our wonderful audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 700 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 701 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 702 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: to topic for the future, or just to say hello. 703 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 704 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 705 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 706 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 707 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.